Jeff, I called you, Jeff, Yes, absolutely, m M. Golf. Is that they anything in golf that doesn't change the anything that changes the best in playing? Does this man a one time winner on the PGA Tour? The point Alan is he didn't go Hollywood. You need a fourth Before we get to the episode, we should tip our caps to echo our corporate sponsors here and of course Lydia co the New World Number one is a long time Echo ambassador. Michael do do you know my affection for Lydia and I share it? Just a charming person and an outstanding golfer. You've done her far better than I. What can you tell us about her? Well? I still have her hat from the Olympics in Rio is his gorgeous New Zealand hat, and asked for I could keep it. She said yes. But one time I was talking to her, I said, where does your power come from? She says, it's from the ground. You know. It's like a really old school. And she has beautiful footwork. And I always watched her swing the club and she's like she's dancing. And as I'm as I'm observing this, I always noticed her her Echo biome shoes like they just seem to give her superpowers. Have you observed anything along those lines? Well, you know what the great teachers say, there's only one thing that connects you to the ground in this game, and that's your They don't say your echo shoes, but in this case, it is her echo shoes. So that's pretty cool. The secret to lydia Co's success, along with many other talents. But she's wearing the right footwears all right back to na fourth. I think it's appropriate that just a minute ago, Jeff Ogilvie and my distinguished colleague and I observed Alan Ship fixing his hair because many people would say that our next guest has one of the great heads of hair, and all of golf shipnuks on the short list. Uh, Robert Rock, Jeff, you ever played with Robert Rock? Robert Rock go fantastic, Hay antasted to her, how's this golf game? Um? Probably the most admired golf swaying to our Actually, Robert Rock is a fantastic golf swing, and he is the he's the man to go to for questions about technique. But held, his hair is probably better than his swing. He's got he's got, he's got our guest test by blues hair. But I don't want you to try to guess it just on that basis, because I want to say this about our guest first. So I was I was at the Father's Son event last year and Roger was there. The course whisper Alan, Can he help us out? Who's the course whisper? Roger Maltby? Roger Maltby, And I said to Roger, the course whisper does aunt Trevino is there? Does anybody know more about the golf swing? Then Trevino and Rodge like a lot of professional golfers, super precise, and he said, I would say that nobody knows more about his or her own swing. Then Buck leave Buck Trevino knows about his own swing. And I thought that was a very nuanced answer. But our guest today and then we'll really open up for you guys to identify the guests is absolutely on the shortlist of the six people in the world who are the most knowledgeable about the golf swing. Anyone cared to try on on that basis hair knowledgeable about the golf swing, Um, it's it's it's not lead better. He never takes his hat off, put Harmon's bald um. I got Grady, Oh my god, great head of hair back to the day, but I haven't seen since the eighties. Actually, Oh, Grady's hair is bamburger esque when now that I think about it, Yeah, yeah, you know he he had Well, okay, is this is this man of one time winner on the PGA Tour. This man is a winner in life and on the man warmth, Jeff, You've played multiple, multiple rounds of golf with this guy, this this distinguished guest of bars. Although I don't know that for sure, but I don't I don't know how that could not be possible. And he warmed up next to Tiger Woods at the two thousand US Open on the Pebble Beach course, and he was trying to do his own thing. He was in the field and uh, and like any of us, he couldn't stop looking. Uh. And he said to himself, then this guy's gonna win by fifteen. Oh. That's another quality of this guest of ours. He's good at predicting things, often based on statistical analysis. He has a great head for the golf swing. He's got a great head of hair, and he's got a great head for statistical analysis. I'm gonna say, Brandy sham believe, Jeff, are you gonna second that um Brando does have good hair? Is he super people out the golf swing? Well, he says debate Randal Sham Blake, come on and yes, Brandella, No, I was being kept in the dark called purpose. So it's probably best. It's probably best. Sorry I missed it, probably for the better. Tune in. It's it's a pleasure to join you, guys, Jeff Alan, Michael, how are you, guys? Where are you guys? All over the world? In California? Just down under? I'm in Philadelphia. Where are you, Brendle, I'm at Scottsdale. I'm home as well. I've been home for the last two weeks or so, something like that. But I leave tomorrow the head to the East Coast, which is a common occurrence these days for Mace. It's called channel move to Connecticut. I'm deeply curious how many books on your bookcase in the background. It is in the same bookcase behind Michael. I want it's for another time. We'll have to sort that out, but there's got to be a few that you both have on those sagging shelves. It's funny. I got some of Michael's behind me. I know that, I uh, I got, I got there, you go. I didn't take long to find one of Michael. Yeah, the Second Life of Tiger Woods, Yeah that got that got dated really fast. You play with brands Brandon was obviously been a long time. Did we did we play? We must have? You know, Yeah, I looked you turned pro? Is that correct? Something like that? And so yeah, you straightaway got onto the European tour, but I think you made your way to the PG eight tour like two thousand thousand one something like that. Yeah, I got three Q school Dan to two thousand started in two thousand one. Yeah, he was still definitely out there at that point. Ryan, Yeah, I didn't leave. Well, I wasn't around for much longer after that. So two thousand and two was last year I was fully exempt, and then at two thousand three I I played a little on the tour, but mostly I was doing television by then. But I remember hearing about Jeff, uh really first from Yeah. I mean, of course I would have seen you or maybe played with you or something, but really hearing about Jeff from Gary McCord. I guess he was a frequent partner of yours. A gray Hawk or not a gray Whisper Rock. Uh, I don't know. Two thousand three or four or five, somewhere in there you would have been a member. When did you join Whisper Rock. I joined whisp Rock. I think towards the end of two thousand and two. I think, um, yeah, and I played with Magic almost every day. I think there for a while, which I don't know. If I think there's benefits to your golf education and some hindurance, theres right. I'd tell you what, He's got a damn good record at telling me who's gonna be awesome? Uh. In addition to you, uh, which he's saying your praises. Long before you won the US Open, you know, he was like, you gotta watch this guy. Um what was it? You know? He said, he it's at nine miles hits straight up in the air, and he's got a great touch. I was like, okay, all those things work. Another time, I was on a plane flying to Pebble Beach album and Gary McCord was sitting behind me. And now, Gary and I've got along great forever. I mean, we've been buds forever. I did a lot of hiking with Gary. I've spent a lot of time with Gary. I just love him. I've argued I think he's one of the fifty best things that's happened to golf in the last fifty years. Many times I think I even wrote that one. But um anyway, he set behind me and he just won't leave me alone, you know, and he's like, oh, you got you gotta you gotta see this guy swing. You gotta see this guy swing. And he comes up and I mean, like, now the entire front of the plane is interested in this guy's golf swing. And it was bryceon d Shambo's golf swing when he was a senior or junior at SMU, and I was the first time I've ever seen it. And he was like, no, he really does. He's a one point. You gotta see this as more normous blah blah blah. And we're drawing lines and we're doing all this stuff. And then in a blink of an eye, I was playing in a straight down event, uh, and Bryson was in the event, and and you know, I had raged against the golf machine for years, and I was so curious because he was the first guy to come along, at least in my view, and adopt ideas from the golf machine, who I would say was better off because of that. Now, obviously that's open to debate, but that's my view, and so I was curious how he did it. So in the locker room, I was like, holy hell, wait a minute, you don't swing anything like all these guys who adopted golf machine philosophies. And he goes, well, that's because I've I've got my own view, you know, and there's a million of them in there, and off he goes. And I don't know that I said another word for an hour and a half, and uh and and and off he went. Now this is before he ever hit a shot on the PGA tour. Uh So, anyway, that was a Gary McCord watch out for this guy spot on, you know, dead ringer called by Gary. So uh I diverge. We get back to Jeff Ogilvie, and I think my favorite Jeff Ogilvie's story. And Jeff, you can tell you this is true because I've told this story before, and hell if I even though it's true, but I'm from Texas and rarely do you will let facts get into the way of a great story. But I hope it's true and that the year you won the US Open, you played in the Club Championship at Whisper Rock and did not win. Is that is that story? True? True story? Yeah? I never won the I never won the club Championship. Wispro. I think, um, I probably played it four or five times, and that might be the hardest tournament to win in the world. I think club damship, I mean this club golfers tour players regularly that cracks who beat you? Who beat you? You won the national championship of our country, one of the four majors, and you couldn't win your damn club championship? Who beat you? If you guys won that? When I played, I mean Jim Strickland, you know it's tricky. Played Arizona State with Phil Yeah, he was my player, straight down. Yeah, I was it. Yeah. Yeah to Dempsey wanted a couple of times, I think days, Um yeah, to a player, UM yeah, I never managed. It was tough. I mean, you've got probably I don't know, three or four two of guys play it every year, and you've got five or six or seven or eight other guys who have thought of I sue golfers sort of sort of failed pros, but they still find themselves into jobs where they don't have to work and they just play golf every day, you know, like it's, um, it's an incredibly high standard. What isn't there one day where they set the I don't think it's a club championship. I think something else where they set the pins and crazy spots and the greens are at fifteen it's tipped out. It's like hell day or something. What what is that, Jeff? It's the battle of attrition? Yeah, um, And they set the course up as ridiculous as they can. Yeah, and um, it's supposed to be a joke, but it's kind of fun for the good players. I mean, if you break eight, you've probably it's like it's tough with the Nookemont set up tough, you know, it's like out of control difficult. Um. And every now and then some pros somehow manages to keep it under the whole all day and shoot seventy one or something. But most guys are shooting high seventies and eighties, and this is a course where we're kind of pretty regularly shooting in the sixties. So um. But then they have the the the obverse to that um. On St Patrick's Day they play the Green Tea where we all go out of the very very maxifulward days and just drawing at every poth fule grain and we try to shoot in the fifties and stuff. So like, give us a die. How does it convey in the dye wards? It's the easiest convey and that kind of the finest dice. That ye. So um. Good fun. Yeah, they don't have a problem finding fun at the Whisper Rock Alan, I gotta say, you look like you like your Henry David Thureaux or something there in that house. You look like you did you build that house yourself? Are you? Are? You like you're just sitting in there with a chair and a table and that's it. It's like this Austere lifestyles. This is an old house and the nineteen twenties in Carmel and the guy who who basically built it, that's his kayak and it lights up at night. There's there's um, you know, over my right shoulder, there's there's illuminates and it was a seaworthy vessel. It's hard to imagine and then these these are lights were fishing baskets have been repurposed and there's a there's a hanging light. It was the spine of a of like a wind primitive insurfer. It's made of wood. I mean, it's really beautiful. So it's all the old carmel Stone fireplace, so it's it's got some character. But yeah, I know there's a lot of jokes because I don't even really The thing about social media you have to really sweep the background. You have to think carefully about anything it's in the view of the trolls because they won't pick up on the most random items that you don't even notice. And so yeah, there's always a lot of jokes about the boat house. But right the screenshot and then zoom in, Oh yeah, no, they're crazy, I know. And then try to cancel you for something you have in your background. Yeah, brand out there, you're gonna get the observation that Schipnuk was that a retreat for the Jewish theological seminary gathering of Rabbi's somewhere in the California Redwoods, because he's looking more and more like rap here. But it's all good I'd like to brag about and I do this periodically, Brandle, and one could easily do it of you and not too many other people who have went on tour. Uh. Mr Ogilvy just dropped a word that I've never in my life used once of obverse? Was it? Did I use it in the right contact that I would? Sure? It was perfect? And I'm going to send you at some point. And brands are very talented. I mean, of course, one of the great keen observers of of of the modern day golf life there is, but Brandon, you'll you'll love to see this. Chevnik and I were on with Jeff shortly before the the Open on the on the old course, and uh, we just asked him, you know, what do you think the course? And he went on for about I don't know, Hollan, would you say two and a half minutes? It was longer than that, much longer than that. And and Brandon, you could literally you could just insert a couple of semicolons here and there and just run it in Sports Illustrated tomorrow. It was. It was such a beautiful statement on what what the old? If I could pay Jeff a compliment, I you know, every time I read Jeff Uh, I think it's hard to believe that guy got that good at golf because it looks like he spent that much time writing. So you're a wonderful writer. Obviously you're very smart. So um. You know, often the conversation uh in in golf TV circles is who would make a great commentator or analyst? You know, they're they're on the constant lookout. But your name is always at the top of the list. So I'm sure you're still ready to play, and you're still gonna keep playing and all that. But but there's a career waiting for you out there talking about golf for sure, and writing about it. I still I still wake up thinking about hating golf shots, not watching golf shots. You know, it's really really hard to kill that bug. I get it. I hit golf balls. My wife and I played the last three days, UH, and then I went out and she took off to place. He's with a group of girls playing Pioneers today. But I went out hit golf balls today. I'm sixty years old and I'm thinking about going to Q school UH in December. The bug never leaves you. You have a couple of good rounds and I think, oh, yeah, I got it, you know, And these days, at sixty, getting it really is just when you wake up and your back doesn't hurt, your almost don't hurt, your wrist on hurt, and I think, oh, well, hell I can. I can still play this game. The bug never leaves you. So tell me do you think, I mean, you've obviously analyzed the golfing a lot and thought about it and messed around with it and observed a lot in the last twenty or thirty years. Do you think if you had your young man's body now, with what you know, you would have been better? Yes? Absolutely, I do, Jeff, because I didn't I didn't know enough when I was and and I'm not faulting the instructors that I worked with, but there was no such thing as YouTube. There was no way to check their information. They were on the cover of golf magazine. So whatever they said, you know, you you thought was gospel. Uh. But if I knew now, or if I knew then what I know now, I would say, well, hold on a second, whoever did it that way? Uh? And and and the way I'm doing it is how Tom Watson did it, and how Jack Nicholas did it, uh, and how Bobby Jones did it, and how Ben Hogan did it. Um. And I would say, with all due respect, I think you're wrong. I didn't do that. I said, you know, you, you must know what you're talking about. Your cover your names everywhere. And so I listened to them. I was curious, and I enjoy golf instructors. I enjoyed sitting around and talking about philosophy. So I slowly adopted those those philosophies to the extent that I could no longer find my way back home again. You know, in college, I can remember one time being asked, you know, why are you so good? And I was, I was very good. Um, And I thought, well, gosh, I hit it high, and very few people can hit it past me. Uh, those that's a pretty good place to start. And and I couldn't sniff saying that. When I played the tour, I mean, I think the longest I ever was on tour was I think I cracked the top ten and driving distance one or top ten, top fifty and driving distance one year. But otherwise I was, you know, on the shorter end of the scale, you know, seventy five or something or a hundred and um so slowly but surely, my my horsepower left me. Um so yeah, I definitely do. I just didn't have enough confidence um and my swing thought there's a There was a very if I could say this, uh, not a particularly popular movie. It didn't get seen that often, but a friend of mine wrote it called Seven Days in Utopia. Dave Cook is a sports psychologist, golf psychologists, very religious guy. He wrote that book and it's based loosely in fact, because there was a character that that it was based around, a teacher from from Waco, Texas, sort of a different version of Harvey Pinnick. But anyway, that the genesis, you know, the gist of the book is that this broken down tour pro car breaks down in the small town and he goes to see this tour pro because you've got nothing to do. He's stuck in the town for a week, and the golf professional tells him, you know, he asked him, why do you grip the club? Do you what you do? And he said, I don't know, And the golf professional looks at him incredulously and says, well, how could you not know? An answer to that, he goes, your homework tonight is to go home, and I want you to write five pages on why you grip the club the way you do, and uh, it's like gracious. So you know the movie, you know, the scene goes back and he's up all night trying to figure it out and writes it, labors over it, gets it written. It comes out the next day and he's really excited to give it to this teacher and the teacher goes, well, I don't want it, and you throw that away and he was like, what are you talking about. I stayed up all night to write this, and he goes, it wasn't for me, it's for you because when you get on tour and somebody tries to tell you to change your grip, you will now know why you grip it that way and you'll be able to argue why you do and so um, you know, I think having the confidence in your own ability, uh, and knowing why you swing the way you do is is an invaluable to him because, Jeff, there are million different golf swings, as you well know, in the Hall of Fame across the line laid off, short, long, and everything in between. M and trying to swing to some ideal. Uh, it's certainly not ideal. I would say, Jeff, I want you to answer your own question, because I kind of feel like, having got to know you a lot this year, you might be better off if you could go back to being just young and dumb and unencumbered and have a free mind. Do you think that the game's become easier or harder for you irrespective of you know how your body has changed. Um Master is a bit similar to Brandon. Actually, I knew what I was doing when I was ten. I feel like um and gradually, but you gotta get a lesson from the guy your dad says. You know this causes he's a great teacher. He takees some good players into what he says, and you can't listen to what he says, and you do a little bit and then you go on. And I got into the system where I got the good coaching and stuff, and I it seemed to make sense. And they put your on camera next to Faldo or Norman or someone who did it good. Back in the day, the video camera was pretty prevalent, and I it just there was somewhere deep inside always that I'm like, you know what I'm not sure about this, but I'll do it because these guys are supposed to know more than me, you know, so I guess it's really um. Like branded just said, you have to sort of trust and believe in what you do. It's very difficult when you're a fifteen sixty year old kid and you're being tilt by these grown ups who are on magazine covers and they've taught tournament winners and stuff like, well, he must know more than me. I mean, maybe it'll feel better down the road, you know. I'll do it now because it's there's this idea that you're not there yet, but if you do all these things, and there's this ideal that you're always chasing this ideal. And it took me a really long time to realize there is no ideal, you just them in. The secret to golf is hitting it well. Now this shot that's in front of you, and then go to the next one and hit that shot really well. And the guy who adapts the best is the best golfer, you know, the guy who can get up to the shop just hit the best shot and then walk up and work out how that shot and hit that shot. This idea that gets planted in at least it got planted in my head. Um. And I think the eighties nineties at video camera generation, that there was this ideal that you're chasing and once you swing it like this, you're going to be a good player, Um, and the ball will go where you want. Is a flawed philosophy. I think the best golfer is the best self teacher, and he knows how to hit the shot that's in front of him the best, you know, because every shot is different, Um, every lie is different, every day is different. Your body feels different every day. I mean, look every what are the sciences to say, every six or seven years you're a completely new person, all yourselves are gone and you're you're rebuilt with something. I mean, you're completely new. You're more, you're more of a pattern than you are a thing as a human, you know. So just work out how to manage that pattern the best and just hit the best shot you can when you get to the ball. If I and that's funnily enough, what I did when I was a kid, Like I didn't practice swing the night before I went to go and play a game with dad when I was twelve. About this is how I'm going to swing in the next day. I was just excited about the first T shirt off the first and I hit that and I'll look where that went. I'm going to go get that, you know. So I guess the long way around the the long way around to get to the thing is. I wish I had exactly like Brandon said, sort of had the strength of mind or character to say, you know what, I know what I'm doing. I'm just going to play golf the way I want to play golf. And I'm not saying you're wrong, but this is me and I'm going to do it like this. That being said, I think the suffering that you deal with when you played two or golf and you work on stuff that's certainly not correct for you, but you bang your head against the wall so hard because we're all told you have to work really hard and you have to do this and if you don't grind, you're not gonna be any good. And I think every tour player has done that and created suffering for themselves. It's just an absolute mass in your mind and it just creates all their stress and anxiety. Um the pot of gold is at the end of that rainbow. And that's really what Hogan and Travino did, is they just bang their head against the wall longer than everyone else until they until they got there. You know, um, I'm glad I've sort of done that. I feel like I have a pretty good idea of how I play golf now. I still certainly can't do it every day, but I've got a pretty good idea of the sort of the way I should go about it. I just wish my body worked like it did when I was twenty again. But I'm not too old, and I still love playing golf and I still love discovering every day. And every day I think I've worked it out. The next day it shows me that I haven't, and then I have to go a week or two before I sort of get the little I've worked it out again, you know what I mean. And then golf shows me that I haven't. But that's the fun, I mean, that's the game. I think. If there's anything that I, as I said, I wish, I wish I hadn't believe there was this ideal that I was going to get to. I wish I realized that it was just, you know what, work out how to play well, every single day today, work out how to play well today, worry tomorrow tomorrow, but today is did imply well today. So um, I think it's a fascinating subject. I mean I could think and talk about the golf swing and playing golf and getting better at golf and having good scores forever, you know, because I think it's you can't work it out. You know, somewhere insiartists knows the answer. But the more you try to tell at the end to the further away you get from the answer. I think that's the finest part of the game. Yeah, Jeff, was there was there, you know, For me, there was you know, I think UM one shot, at least when I was younger, that I that I always tried to hit that just in I think intuitively made me a better player. Um. I would go to the range and I would try to hit you know, a couple of hundred one irons, and I would try to hit him as high and as hard as I could. Uh. And it was that move really that made me, I think, made me a better player, made me a much much better player. And and then slowly I got coached out of all those moves as I began to listen to instruction. Uh, you know, after I got really really good. So it was kind of I remember reading. Um, maybe it was a Fred Couples, maybe it was a Jack Nicholas. It was you know, Fred would talk about trying to get his hands as fast as he could on his left shoulder, and Jack would talk about, you know, trying to get his hands to go down the target line. Um. But anyway I would, I would, I would try to do that. And if you think about what you have to do to hit a one iron high and long, Um, you know you're you're releasing it fully right. You're not a lot of forward shaff lee. Uh, you're swinging up, you're hitting it high. You're not thinking about technique. Uh. And that one thought, you know, helped me in such good stead. I'm wondering if you had like an epiphany, one moment when you were younger that allows you to have a breakthrough in the game. Um, I don't know. I mean I started really young. I mean I was chipping ping pong balls around the house when I was six or seven. Um. But um, it's funny. I always gravitated as a kid, as a really young kid to the hardest shot possible, and like I did, like i'd have some doubt had a set of remember the Nicholas mill Fields, the Blaze and like back in those days you'd get the one to three four all the way down and he never used the one on. He had the pink one on, I think, which everyone wanted. But I would take that one on and just go to the range and want to hit that. I just and there was an impossible club to hit, but I just loved hitting the hardest shot possible. Um. I'd go into bankers and the banker shots with seven irons because I thought that was harder than it was with a sandwige. Um. Yeah, I don't know if I had any actual specific moment of clarity. I used to I used to like mimicking whoever was playing really well at the time. I'd go out and try to feel like I swung like that, UM, and that I think was really good because it was it's field based, not it wasn't position based. I tried just tried to look like Steve Elkington or looked like Greg Norman or you know, I feel like what it feels like to be Greg Norman. And I think it taught me a lot about sort of you're fine, you sort of edges, you know, like talk from the science point of view. Bryson always talks about end range. But I think when you you have a Lie Travino week, and then you have a Nick Foulo a week, and then you have a Tom Watson week, you're sort of discovering all the different things you can do with your golf swing. And I left my left heel for a week like Watson, and then you keep it on the ground like Fowlo for a week, and I just think I've found the boundaries, if that makes sense, and all the things that I couldn't couldn't do, and the end product was my golf swing, which was just a mismatter, like a sort of a cocktail of everything I've ever tried to do, you know. But I definitely, as a kid, gravitated to the harder shot possible, which I think is really an interesting headspace because the older you get, you kind of go the other way. You try to go to you trying to practice the stuff you can do, and you could have go away from the stuff you can't do. Absolutely if I could find out what went wrong, like my head's but my head and I think you're seeing other kids and I was eating my kids. Um, we've we've got the mental side of golf worked out. When we're like ten, Like every bit of new information that we get, we get further away from that pure, sort of perfect sort of golfer. You know. It's like we think we're doing full pro shot routines and visualization all this. You just instinctively naturally do that as a kid, you know, And it's so much fun, and you don't worry about the shot you just said before. You just get excited about the next one you want to hit. You know, if I could do anything, I'd try to put my twelve year old brain onto this wise old person. I guess I don't know. So it's but does it come? Can you get the Can you gain all that experience and get all the scars and ever get back there? You know? It's interesting, I mean, the whole idea of like having your own swinging. A few years ago and Dustin Johnson was clearly like the best golfer in the world. I asked him, like, if you couldn't touch a golf club for one year, how long would take you to get back to where you are right now. And he said, well, could I work out and the train and yeah, yeah, you can keep in good sheep whatever. He's like the maybe two And you know, Dustin's unique, but you know for him, he's like it's it's in him, it's who he is. He hasn't really changed his swing that much. And I always thought that was a fascinating answer. Um, I mean what about you guys if you didn't touch a club for a year, but you know you could, you could stay in fighting shape, Like is your swing now so hardwired into into your your nervous system that you could just find it right away? It would it be a long process of rediscovery. Oh for me, I mean I'd hit it. I would hit the ball okay, Um, it wouldn't take long too to look really good to you guys, but it would the last five percent would take a while. You know. Um, it's quite hard wired. But like I mean, day, I believe it about Daija because I mean, DJ there's two sorts of golficer there's guys who try to hit it a certain way and there's guys who trying to swing in a certain way. And Dji it's just a guy who tries to hit it a certain way. And I think the guys who try to hit it a certain way, he's thinking about the shot he's hitting, not about the swing he's making. So I think would come back comes back quicker for Gala that especially, Sin's a great athlete. Um, But there's other guys who, like Brauston is trying to swing in a certain way because he knows that's going to get there was already once and I think that guy needs to put the whole thing back together, you know, before he hits the shots. Um, I don't know, I'd be back reasonably quick. But the shop this would it would take a long time to like shopping the pencil. Yeah, I mean, look all that, all that work you've done your whole life. It counts, you know. I don't know if you've ever read a book by His name was Daniel Coyle. He wrote The Talent Code. You ever read that book? Anybody ever goes with it? Yeah, that's fascinating book. And it just talks about the milin nation that goes on when you're learning something in it. Um, you know that counts, right, So you know, Hogan had famously had that accident in February of and you know, almost exactly a year later, he tied at the l A Open, and he would have had five days to pract us before going to that l A Open. And he played no more than a handful of times the rest of his career, even through you know, the bulk of what was left of you know, you could call his his um flush career through three he was only playing a handful of times, and he he still had the forum. Um. So yeah, I mean all that work you've done in the past accounts that last five percent, as Jeff said, is you know, being able to flight shots, hitting them through trajectories, carrying him the right distance. You'd have to go out there and play very conservative golf because you would you would be able to even if you've been working out, you wouldn't be able to clear as fast, wouldn't be able to stretch as much. You wouldn't be able to swim, get your hands as high, or there would be loads of things you wouldn't be sharp at. You know, you just wouldn't be as good around the greens, your touch wouldn't be as good. And that's that last five percent that Jeff's talking about. But yeah, I would be okay, I've actually gone a year and not touched a golf club. In the last years I've I I went somewhere in there, I would have gone to three years and hardly touched a golf club. So, you know, uh, I remember I hadn't played no tournament golf for fifteen years, and and my wife and and only like three or four rounds a year. And my wife was after me because the Senior Open was at St. Andrews, and she was like, you know, don't you think that'd be cool to play one senior event. I was like yeah, and you know, the Open was at Carnousti and and so I said, okay, I'll enter it. And then and then like two months went by and I hadn't touched the club and picked up a club. And one day I went in to brush my teeth and there was a note on the on the on the mirror that said it's fifty three days until the Senior Open qualified and you haven't touched a club, and uh and uh I started laughing. I went out there and she was like, listen, if you don't want to play, don't play. But if you're going to try to qualify, you should at least give it an for it, because look, I mean, golf is so far down on my priority list now, it's We've got a million other things. I love golf, I absolutely love it, but it's just it's it's ten or twelve on my priority list. So I just always had other things to do. So I was like, all right, I'll go practice. And then you know, after a month, my body hurt, like hell um, I get up every morning be like, holy how did I do this? You know, you know, and I calluses and and I was thinking about golf again. And you know, it's like I'm come home pissed if I didn't play well or hit it well. And um, but it was you know, look it was. It was a fun few months. But it took it took a lot to get that last five percent that Jeff is talking about. I'm not sure I actually got it, but I did well enough to qualify and uh, and that was fun. I'm grateful for having, you know, given it sort of one last shot. So to speak to your to your point, I remember, surely after Jack turned necklastern fifty. Uh, but you know, he didn't want to keep beating up on those guys they had been beating up on all his life. Um, thank you Brando for remember and uh uh he was going bad himself, like for a three weeks stretch, let's say. And I said to Jack, if if Jack Grout had died, you know, a year or two earlier, And I said, what if Grout could watch you today? How long do you think it would? And I remember this like it was yesterday. It was at Darrell. I said, if Gret we're live today, what you know, you guys could be on the range together, how long do you think would take him to get to get you straight? And Inclist went like this, I'd be bit I keep fixed me like and he went like that like that, and it was neat. It was a neat moment. And then and when when Jeff was talking about running from this, you know in this instructor and the age of the video and all the rest, and Brandon, this is a long set up for something. I'd love to hear you weigh in on. I would thought I would have thought now Tiger was a prodigy. He had a beautiful swing even before he went't so Butch, but he improved a lot under Butch. And now Butcher with without out knowing anything, Jeff about who you would have seen at that age or brandom you for that matter as well. When he went to see Butcher, Butcher had worked with Sloom and he won a major, David's love and won a major, worked with of course Greg Norman, who was the number one player in the world at the time that Tiger went to see him. So to Jeff's point, earlier, Tiger wasn't running around, and Earl wasn't gonna let him run around. He was like, this is your guy. This guy works with Norman and now and now he's working with you, and of course normally got pushed out or left. So I don't think Tiger ever had that question of flavor of the month or let's look at this video. And so I think that's one of the reasons why we talked about the Tiger Butch era is such a magical period for golf, in such a marriage period for swinging the club beautifully, and Brando, you and I talked about Tiger two thousand on the practice at at Pebble Beach. But I wonder Brandon, if you could offer your your thoughts on that about the the out commedia with the chemistry is probably between Butcher and Butch and Tiger. I would say Tiger got very lucky there, um, in the same way that Jack Nicholas got very lucky. Um. You know when he went out to that range in nifty at si Oto. Uh, they're on that range. To help him was Jack Grout. Now, Jack Grout, as I'm sure all of you well known, you know, UM, you know, his his tutelage in the game derives from Alex Morrison. Um. And and there's a direct link between the golf that Alex Morrison taught and Henry Picard played, and Ben Hogan played, um and to some extent, Bobby Jones. And so you know, Jack Grout was taught by Alex Morrison, who taught rolling the heels, who taught lifting the left heel on the back swing, who taught turning the head to the right in the backswing and keeping your head to the right in the back swing, which allows that great separation so in try position. And so Jack Grout, there's Jack Grout who had the best of both worlds. He was I would say lucky in his instruction and also came at it from a plane background. So there, Jack Nicholas is a good athlete, and thankfully he ran into Jack Grout, who knew exactly what Jack Nicholas needed, uh to get headed in the right direction. Tiger similarly at least in Butch. Butch had a plane background and also sort of a highly technical background and being taught by his father. If you know, I'll give Butch a huge compliment, uh, and that none of his players look alike, none of them. You know, Um, they don't all swing flat, they don't all swing up right. They don't swing down the line that swing across the line laid off. They have flat. They have strong grips and weak grips. You know, he worked with Freddie Couples, and he worked with Jose Marian. All the thought, well, you can't get a weaker weaker grip than Jose. You can't. Are they get a stronger grip than than Freddie. You can't get a flatter swing than is a. You can't probably get a more upright swing than Freddie Couples. And he's worked with everything in between, so you know, uh, you know, let's imagine if if Tiger's father and I give Tiger's father a lot of credit because he knew the game but what if he would have And I'm not going to throw anybody under the bus here, but I think all of us can imagine him working with two or three or four other teachers who would have tried to impose upon Tiger a method some methodology, and who knows if it would have stripped out of Tiger the genius that that existed. Um. So you know, I think you know Butch's you know, Butch is. He has told me that before he lets somebody come work under him, he makes them read like a prerequisite to working with Butch as you know, learning from Butch, as them reading John Jacobs book on golf swing to get just a basic underlying philosophy about how to grip and how to stand and all those things. And so I think Butch really does is really rooted in the in the fundamentals that he doesn't get tangled up and swinging a certain way. Uh. And so you know that's where golf is very fortunate that Tiger and Butch um or that Tiger met Butch and didn't meet somebody else who might have imposed some some theory on him and uh and robbed him of his genius. It's interesting thought exercise what if they were teaching at the naval course in Cyprus, California? The stack and tilt? Have we even ever heard of tiger woods? Like? Um? I mean it is that that that the happenstances, as you say, and what what what led certain players to certain places? Because you were you were talking about Bryce and when my first job, when I was sixteen, I was a cartboy at Quail Lodds, this little course in Carmel Valley, and Ben Doyle was teaching there. And I had no real golf education and Ben Doyle had this this golf cart with all these contraptions, and he had kids out there. They were hitting beach balls with rakes all summer long, and I thought it was the weirdest ship I've ever seen. And it was so over my head. And of course, you know Bobby clamp It became the ultimate um Ben Doyle disciple and and and never never really achieved what people thought he was going to and um. So yeah, it's like who you wind up with and and how it all it all happens is a fascinating subject. And it's sort of unique to golf, right because no one really talks about like who Lebron James Is high school coach was, you know, and in other sports, like you're this incredible physical talent and you just find a way, and there's there's people who help you or don't, but it seems like they're all the cream always rises another sports, but golf is is very unique in that way, like the people you meet on your journey seemed to have an outsized effect on on the athlete. Yeah, we're all so obsessed with the golf swing, you know, the mystery of it, the science of it, which again I mean, which is why the book The Golf Machine, I think is intrigued people. You know, I think that book was written in the late sixties because it at least promised, or at least promises um the reader, that you're gonna be able to understand the golf swing after you read this book. Now, I've read that book half a dozen times at least in my life. I've taken notes on it, I've broken it down, I've I've spent a lot of time trying to understand that book. And I and I still don't understand so so so so uh and I and I look, I I've been to a few teaching some seminars where huge proponents of that book stand up and and take issue with me on that book. And I'm like, look, the reason I find so much fault in that book, Uh, not to get too much into the weeds here, but because it gets the simplest thing wrong. So how can I how can I believe a book as complicated as that book when it gets the simplest thing wrong, which I believe it's very early on in that book, like Age twelve, it talks about how the head cannot move, that the golf swing must swing around a fixed point, and likens the golf swing to a machine in that regard. And you know, again this is where if you had YouTube when I was, you know, standing on the range and you know, teachers were telling me to keep my head still, I would have taken them through the top fifty p G eight Tour winners of all time and the top fifty LPGA winners of all time, and I would have pulled up all fifty of their swings and said, not one of these players keeps their head still, not one, not one, not even close. Like they all move it huge off the ball and up the ball, up off the ball, or off the ball and down. But they all move it in a big way, every single one of them. So why are you teaching that. Um, It's just it's just it's just not based in fact um and and and so that's you know, that's you know, without getting too much in the weeds, that's you know. And it's interesting that you talked about that, Alan, because I had and again I'm not gonna name names and throw this fella under the bus, but I had a very good junior player on my high school team. Uh. He has a lot to do with me even getting an integral He was a tremendous player. And his father said to him, and his father hardly had any money, but he scraped on enough money. He said to his son, I can I will leave it up to you. I'll send you to see Bob Toski or Ben Doyle. I'll spend all the money and you can go for an entire summer and work with either one of these. And and this this young kid, uh said, I'll go to Ben Doyle. And he was the number one player on our team. And he was borderline the number one player in the nation, uh, junior player. And he came back from there and and just you know, he just was never the player that he was before he left. And so you know, again I'm I'm not throwing Ben Doyle into the bus. He was trying to help students. He was trying to understand the golf swing. Um, but there's a danger in trying to impose a methodology on every single player that comes through your door. Generally speaking, teachers learned from athletes. Um, they learned from them. It's not the other way around, you know, Um, you know they they teachers generally don't innovate with an idea. It's when the movement is discovered. Like if we're looking at you know, Kyle Berkshire with his movement. Okay, so he wasn't taught that. He came to that empirically, nobody would teach what he does that that step step, step up, the goes right. Um. And so Bryson learned it from Kyle, and Boom transformed himself from never having the top ten in a major championship to finishing fourth and then winning the US Open, uh where Jeff Ogilvy won it at wingfoot And so you know, did he did did did Bryson learned that from a teacher or did he learn that from an athlete? So it's usually the genius that innovates, and then teachers try to understand it and then help others understand it and teaching. Uh. And there's a lot of great teaching out there, a lot uh. And I really have enjoyed teaching in the last five or six years listening to teachers, because I think instruction has gotten miles better. I think to be a really good teacher requires so much wisdom and and what comes to mind is something about and brand. Help me with the name if you remember. But the fourtune year old kid from China where he was fourteen at the time who made the cut of the Masters, want and long, thank you and uh, you know, had an awkward swing, but at fourteen it was good enough to make a cut in the Masters. And uh. So I said to Billy Harmon, you know, the next week ago, what would you do with this kid and build a harmor for those who don't know, is which's kid brother and the son of clude Hartman and uh And Billy said nothing. And I said, really, he's got a weird looking swing. I mean, I was aiding mon I was and Billy said, yeah, he's fourteen. He just made the cutting the masters. You know, let him figure it out. But I mean another guy would be like, oh, we need to see this, this and this. Like to to to Jeff's point, I'm gonna go a quick one and then a longer one. Have at Percy Boomers on learning golf? How would you? How would where would that be in your on your list? If anywhere? I have it, it's somewhere back here. I love that. I love it. You know, the turn in the barrel philosophy. Again, it's one of those philosophies that, uh it's it's beautiful, it's wonderful, but it's just doesn't work and it's not true. Uh you know, uh you know, uh, nobody turns into barrel and plays this game great. Everybody moves off of a golf ball. But but I love the book. I'll tell you a quick story about that. I was. I was once working and yeah, I don't want to throw the instructors under bus, but I was working with David leed Better. I'm not doing David led Better under the bus. When you're from Texas and you're a golf person, you gotta be really careful with that work bus in general compare point um. So i'm i'm i'm I'm working with David Leadbetter and UH. And one of David lead betters acolytes comes out and he says, you're not gonna believe this, and this will tell how long ago it was this facts that we just got from this very well known teacher. And David goes, oh, this is will be interesting, and he said, Brando, you gotta come in and read this facts with me. These are always entertaining. So going there and the facts reads something along the lines of, how dare you use the word transition without giving me credit? I coined the phrase of the club that space where the club's going into the backswing before you know, as it as it transitions from back swing to down swing. I coined that as the transition, and and you should give me credit every time you use it. And so David went over to Percy Boomer's book. UH pulled out and David Knew found the spot where Percy Boomer used the word trail position. UH. Put it face down on the facts. Close the facts set the facts that a letter. Percy Boomer coined the word and I'm sure somebody used it before Percy boomer, So every time you use it, you should give them that. And I left there and I thought, wow, that is how petty, uh instruction can be. I mean these were the other Fellow was a monster in the you know, monolith in the in the teaching industry. Um. But but anyway, that's a beautiful book. Uh. You know, I love it and I don't fault them. It's just like, you know, it's a wonderful theory. It's it's also it's another one of those theories like resist with your lower body so that you can build up tension and hit it farther and those those are wonderful theories. They're like I likened it to the geocentric model of the universe. It's a wonderful theory. It sounds great. Um, it's beautiful. It's just wrong. Uh. That's that's all there is to it. Branda. Where were you situate when Jeff won the US Opening two thousand and six on the wing foot course. Let's see where were we? I was? I was? You know that. The thing is is that I have to really work hard to watch the end of golf tournaments, if you can believe that, because normally we're setting somewhere where we can take it all in right, and then we have to get from there to our set, you know, within thirty minutes before we go on air. If we're coming on the air at six o'clock at five thirty, we gotta get there. And so in that last thirty minutes a lot of crazy stuff happens. Typically, but typically you get up there and they're like, oh, yeah, so and so made the putt and so and so I didn't make the putt, and then you get my notes set and then I get locked in. Well, in the last hour of that tournament, all hell breaks loose. You know, Jeff chips in from par at seventeen, gets the up and down at eighteen, and then everybody collapses. You know, I'll call him Montgomery and Burrick and Phil and uh and so you know, I remember getting up to the set uh and and I'm like what who he did what? And you know, and at that point, the US Open didn't have shot link um and so you know, trying to catch up and get ready to come on the air, and then you think, well, Phil is gonna win anyway, and then he gets there and then not all unfold. So you know, I was on the set trying to wrap my arms around it. Like the rest of the world. Phil was about to win three majors in a row, you know he had, right, he had just one? What did he won? He won? Uh so that's two thousand six. So had Phil won the two thousand five p g A, he won the two thousand six Masters. This was going to be his third major in a row, which, by the way, cracks me up because as soon as he loses, he switched his teachers because you know, he couldn't find the fairway or whatever. But meanwhile, damn near won three majors in a row and the and then Tiger goes on an epic run, you know, starting at hoy Lake. I mean, it's incredible how the whole thing flipped. If if Phil wins that the open at Wingfoot, he's three corters away to the Tigers lam, he goes to number one for the first time ever. He's gonna be a a Player of the Year for the first time, Like you could for the first time, you could say with a straight face that he's an equal to Tiger Woods. And and then one hole everything changed, and and Tigers around the afterburners, right, I mean, that was. You know, it was obviously a monumental moment for Jeff, but it was one of the more bizarre endings to a golf tournament. Great commentary by Johnny Miller. You know, I think his comments were, you know, he doesn't have to ride the white horse, something along those lines. You know, he doesn't have to be the hero here. Uh And and of course, you know everybody watching sports loves to be, you know, second guest, the athlete. Um. I've heard Phil give his take on that, something about he would have hit a four, would but he thought he was going to leave it too long a shot, and you know, he worked this whole way through it. But amazing thing to me is, if I'm not mistaken, he had hit two fairways that day standing on the teh and he had the dad gum lead in the US open Um. You know. Uh, So that was you know, that was quite the accomplishment from Phil, just to get it around that golf course from from the right. It was a bit like Sevy later in his career when he couldn't find a fairway, but just through guile and guts, uh managed to hang in there. Jeff, you've you've never talked about this with Phil. Have you like you've never wrapped out about that whole thing? Not really, it's a hot I mean, um, he was pretty good about it on the last on the gray on the presentation, and like he turned up the presentation, and I don't think Monty did. Um. Um, he was pretty good about it. He looked white, like he was pretty in shock. Um. And I actually at the time, well very soon after that, for about the next sort of two or three years, I leaving right next door to Bones, So we talked about it a few times. Um. Look, I didn't we didn't bring it up. We had a couple of little lighthearted cracks about it, me and Phil. I think I never wanted to bring up is pretty sensitive. I mean, um, like Brandle said, it was, nobody else could have been leading the US Open on the last hole hitting it the way he was hitting it. There's just no way, not around there, maybe not around anywhere. But um, it was just when you're sort of afterwards, you see what happened was like Wow, there was probably a sense of inevitability about it because of his whole U S open sort of thing. It was a bit of this amp sneed he was open history. But on the other hand, the whole week, it felt like it was his tournament. As Brandle said, he's won two majors in a row. Um Tiger missed the cut. I think for the first time in a major maybe um um yeah. As a pro m. I think Earl had died just after the Masters, maybe his father passed, so it was a tough period. He turned out without your practice, so I don't think anybody held it against him. But it was like, as you said, Phil's time for shine, and he was sort of it was his coronation, right, he was walking around New York. Of New York. The loved him. Um yeah. And I just this wasn't meant to be. I mean, I don't I don't begrudge the driver. I think the addenth wingfoot is always a driver. Um. I don't understand the second shot. I've never understood why you wouldn't just pitch it out. And I had nine I drive and nine on him, and if he pitched it a hundred yards up the fairway, he would had eight yards and that's that's Phil's wheel had. I don't understand that second shot, not really the drive, but anyway, it worked out well for me. It was really it was so bizarre. Even the presentation there was no screen like they have these days, or there was just a leaderboard on one side of the one side of the eighteenth Green. I guess it's on the right hand side. So we went to presentation. The whole Green thought he'd made five. They never saw that. They thought his second shot went into the back banker, not his third shot. And so there's this whole one side of the thing saying, what are they all coming out for? Isn't there a playoff tomorrow? Because they didn't have a clue. It's only half the ad eighth Green spectators knew that it was over in the red carpet was coming out under the green stuff. So it was. It was a fascinating period. I mean, everybody's stories about it almost more fun than mine because there were so many different things that happened in the last hour. And I really only know, you know, from my perspective. You know, I was just trying to make power in the last few hours and see how it worked, you know. And I've watched it a few times. I haven't watched it too much, to be honest. I don't never really like watching my own Gulf tournaments back, I'd rather watch other people win tournaments. Finally enough, but um yeah, fascinating times interesting. Yeah, I mean it's I don't know what kind of adds to the film because in law a little bit done and it's like that sneat story. I mean, how did he not manage to win when he got so close so many times? He was arguably the best US Open player of my generation. Um, you always seemed to be in it, you know, I just couldn't get it over the line. Yeah, what a statement, right, I mean if I would have lost a lot of money on Phil finishing second, I've lost track that he as he finished second six times. I would have lost a lot of money on that. Now, I mean I would argue some of that has to do with bizarre circumstances. I would argue, you know, the graduated philosophy that the U. S g A adopted played into that. Um I would argue that the solid quirk goff ball had a lot to do with that, because even the straightest of hitters ended up in the rough more often, and that's where Phil lived. Um So there were there were things that that played into that, certainly, but just still the idea that that if you listed the top forty players of all time, Phil would be either be thirty nine or forty. In terms of accuracy, you know, in my book, I mean it's Sevy and Phil and and their neck and neck. Um, and I don't know who is the most most inaccurate. But and the fact that Phil would have could have easily won three or four US Opens is crazy to me. But that speaks to Phil's unbelievable talent and belief. You know, one of my favorite Phil Mickelson's stories is his friends. You would know these guys, Jeff. You know Rob MAGGINI, uh, Rob Mangini and of course Alan, you would have talked to Rob Mangini when here's a great source from my book. Yeah, so I love Rob Mangini and Jim Strickland and their buds of mine. And uh Rob tells a story I might have even told this story to you, Alan, but tells a story about they had they had hired all these great instructors, Jeff. This fits perfect with what we were just talking about earlier. Um, they had hired all these great instructors to come in and work with the A s U team. I think it was Steve Lloyd, you know, you've got all these great instructors. Come in. We're gonna have the best instruction for this team. And they get there and everybody's there but Phil. And so Steve Lloyd says to Mangini, you know, go get Phil. I he's on the back of the range. Back there, go getting It's mandatory telling to get his ass up here. So Rob drives back there and he's like, hey, popping the cart. We gotta go. The guys are here, and he was like, I'm not going. He's like, there's not one thing those guys are gonna tell me that is gonna make me a better player. Not one thing nothing they're gonna tell me it's gonna make me better. And he was like, what are you talking about. These are the best teachers in the world. That flew all the way here. He's paying a no, not going to coach. Absolutely not a deal breaker. Nobody's messing with my golf swing. I didn't do that. I mean my job. I wasn't as good as Phil in college, but I wasn't that far off. I mean, you know I would have been in the top five. I think I got rated, you know, fourth best player in the country or something or um. So, I mean I was, but I didn't do that. I went and listen to him. Um and I think I think that that's that kind of belief is is as rare as the talent that Phil had. I would say, well, I'm sorry to break away from this thrilling podcast because Brann, she really is a riveting guest. But we have to pay a few bills. So we'd like to thank our sponsor, Link Soul. They're helping make a need a fourth possible. 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I mean, so Randle, as we're as we're sitting here having this this very pleasant chat, and you're you're clearly thoughtful and soft spoken and and um discreet, and you don't want to don't want hurt anyone's feelings when you're talking about these instructors. Um, I'm sure that some of the listeners are thinking, I thought I thought Brandle was this fire breathing dragon who's the most polarizing guy in the golf media. And I'm wondering, Um, how you know this seems I think for getting a glimpse of who you really are right now. But how as as your persona has gotten so big in your place in the game, and uh, how have you dealt with the blowback and the criticism and all that. Because it's something that that I deal with my professional life, Michael a little bit, but you're more on the on the front lines. It feels like, is it is it challenging for you? Is it something you enjoy, does it does inspire you to work harder? Like? How do you deal with all of them? Well, I tell you, in general, I'm a non confrontational person, which I think people would find bizarre, but I am. I I don't. I don't enjoy I enjoy getting along, I enjoy people. I love people. I spent a lot of time, um with my friends, hanging out. My caddie used to always say that he could find me on the range because it would be where the largest group of people was. Because I enjoy a good laugh and I enjoy hanging out with people. Um. The nature of my job requires me to have an opinion on things. And and you know, I set in a spot where every two minutes someone turns to me and says, you know, why did that happen? And why did somebody win? Why did somebody lose? And I've always said that the world of analysis, I mean sports fans are very comfortable with what happened. You know, you know who won? This guy hit that many fairies like why did he win? Well, that guy made a twenty Jeff Jeff Overvie, he chipped in at seventeen and he he made this unbelievable part at eighteen. People are very comfortable with hearing that what makes people what pisces people off, as if you try to tell them why Jeff chipped in at seventeen, got up and down at eighteen, why Jim Fear came up short and com Montgomery came up short and Phil Nicholson mssed fairway and and those are hard things to divine out. They're not easy, and and they're always your opinion. But you know, as long as you're making your opinion, you should you should do your best to back it up in fact um. So I would just say that the hy tends to piss people off, but that's that's the world I live in. Why something happened, that's analysis to me. And it's not easy, you know. I I say all the time that if by the time I come on the air, everything that could possibly be said about the golf has been said. Uh, you know, we don't come until the golf is over, and so there's shows in the morning and the golf all day and then we come on. So you know, you sit there all day and you think, well, what hasn't been said? What's interesting to me? Uh? And how can I shed some light on it? And you know, you do a bit of digging um and and then you try to get it right. Uh. To your point about criticism, how do I handle it? I would say that criticism is important. I don't dismiss criticism. H. I think we can all learn from criticism. I think there's there's some truth, especially if it's well not to spend sleep, if it's coming from the right spot. Uh. You know, I don't look at Twitter for criticism. I look at colleagues and friends and uh. And I listened to tour players. Even if tour players if they get tested at me or they say, you know, I was wrong or you know or you know, you phrase that incorrectly, I listened to it. I think, Okay, where was I coming from when I said that? You know? And if a tour player directly confronts me, which happens a few times a year, I'll say, you know, was I wrong? Uh? And generally what happens, I'd say nine percent of the time they're like, well, I heard you said this. I said, well, I didn't I said this, and I said all these things before it, um and such. I said, I'll get you the tape if you want to see the tape. Ah, but it happens. You know golf, You know, being a broadcaster is not unlike being a golfer. You make mistakes, you make bogies. You know, you get things wrong. You know I have said things where I've upset people and I thought, wow, I never saw that coming, you know. I remember we had Roco mediate on. We were doing this piece on Jimmy Ballard, who I quite enjoyed Jimmy Ballard, and I I could, I could give you chapter in verse on why I think Jimmy Ballard was a marvelous teacher in spite of his you know, sort of almost revolutionary ideas about you know, rocking and blocking. And I always called it rocking and blocking wrongly, but that's I would refer to it that. I used to have a friend by the name of Dillard Pruett, and he would always set up and he would sort of slide and squat and then slide and squat and you know, like to tell you how straight he hit it. We were playing once in More early in the morning, and More had gone down the fairway and left this one strip. Okay, now, how wide is that? That's that's that's eight ft wide. Maybe. Uh. The other guy on our group, Fred was where said Dillard, I'll bet you a hard bucks you can't hit that strip. And uh and and Dillard back there, he back there, he line it up, line it up, and you had the one of the Wood brothers and were right down the middle and hit the damps drip. That's how straight Billard Prude hit it. And so I always thought of Dillard for its golf swing. Is you know, further evidence of Jimmy Ballard's theories. You know how something work. Would Jimmy Ballant hit it straight and you could point Curtis Strange work with Jimmy bout he was straight, and you could point big old guy Leonard Thompson didn't hit it far, but hit it damn straight. So anyway, we do this special on Jimmy Bower and in as we're going to break, I said, yeah, you know he was a rock and blocker. He taught rocking and blocking, which really isn't what he taught. He taught rocking and releasing. But I said rocking and blocking whatever. And it was a throwaway line going to break, and you know rock O Mediate came in the next day, just veins popping, pissed that I had referred to in a pejorative sense his teacher as a rock and blocker, and I and I and I thought, man, I apologize. I did not mean to do that. I've got a lot of great I got a lot of respect for Jimmy Bower what he does. Um. And so yeah, I take criticism to heart. I don't dismiss it. I listened to it. I sit down every single day trying to get it right. I sat down every single day trying to do research that uh, that I get excited about so I can share it with our viewers. Um. And And you know, it's not like I'm trying to be the tour players friends at all. I've I've I have tried to, and it's been hard for me because I really do enjoy people and I enjoy talking golf. But I've tried to stay distant from tour players, UM because I I want to be able to say nice things about tour players that I might not particularly like, and I want to be able to say critical things of tour players that I really like. I just don't want to be biased too. And we all suffer from our own biases. But I try to be as objective as I can be, and one of the ways to do that, for me at least, is to do my own homework. Um, I listened to them, for sure. I go in and read all their transcripts. When they talk to you, Allen or Michael or Jeff, I read their transcripts, and I try to read between the lines and do my job. The criticism that comes my way is just part of the job. But again I learned from it and I don't dismiss it. Well, before we let Brandon go the last chance to pick his brain, Michael or Jeff, What what? What? What are you cogitating on in there? Well, it would be hard to get it down to one because Brandon can go in so many different directions. But I wonder Brandon to get back to Sue what you know Jeff was talking about early on, and Alan was asking about early on. It. I know this will be hard to do. If you could distill it down to one thing of what you would like to do at sixty what you know now about sixty, I'm sure you can't be done. But to the Greek you can do it. Can you distill done one thing what you would like to do with your golf swing at this point that you hadn't done previously. Make as big a turn as I possibly can in both directions. Um. You know, there's there's all kinds of hurdles to that, and you know, uh, and I'm you know, I look at Tom Watson, um, and you know I was. I was lucky enough to qualify for the Senior Open another time at the World of them, I think the very next year, um so maybe two nineteen, a roll of them. And I've I've known Tom. Uh. We certainly weren't I wouldn't say friends, but we've always gotten along. We had mutual friends. And so I've known Tom, have been to dinner with him a few times. I've done some outies with Tom. And Tom was warming up beside me. We both share a love of horses and all that. So he was warming up beside me. We were the only two on the ranch, and and so we were just talking about you know, his I think we all know his warm up teap routine. He starts, he hits balls with a three earned or two earned, his first shot of the day, never a wedge. But I was watching him stretched and one of the things I've marveled about. Tom Is said, even at seventy years of age, his swing was just as long as it was when he was twenty nine. And so you know that big, beautiful movement where their hands are up here, a huge shoulder turn. You know that time and transition is gold. You know your swing gets shorter, you've got less time and transition, and you can't sequence things up very well. And and and I've argued this point a lot. You know, the guys that swing real long and have a real natural release, like Jeff Aligivi. As a matter of fact, Um, you know, Jeff, I would say, you hit the ball high, right. You hit the ball high, didn't you. I mean, you had a beautiful release. You're pretty high. I mean I just look at your golf swing and it looked like you hit it very high. And it seemed to me that people who hit it high were the best wedge players, the best scramblers, and the best putters. Uh. And I've argued for years the reason I think they're the best putters. And I'm thinking now of Ben Crenshaw comes to mind, or saving value Stairs comes to mind, or Tiger Woods comes to mind. Um or Jack Nicholas comes to mind, and all those players hit it high. And the reason I argue that hitting it high has dividends beyond just Ta Green is because if you're hitting high, your releases is generally speaking, it's not going to be a lot of forward shaffling. You're gonna be coming into the ball with a fairly neutral sort of attack angle. Of course, your hands are slightly ahead and releasing right, but you're but you're here. And I've always argued that the players that had a lot of forward shaff line and a lot of supernation on that left wrist, it creeps into your you're putting. It just creeps into it. Uh you know. Johnny Miller is a marvelous example. Um. It just has a way of creeping into it. Whereas the guys who hit a high they have this natural release with their putter, uh you know. And and and so I would say make as full as swing as you can in both directions because it pays dividends. You have all that time in transition to allow you to sequence up. It'll it will allow you to, at least in my view, to carry on being a good putter and a good wedge player. Um you know what, what what stops people from playing this game is they hurt, they can't hit it very far, they begin to get the yeps because you know it all kinds of grimlins in their head. Uh So the long swing is it pays dividends in my mind. It's it's a it's a real pleasure. Michael and Alan, uh and and Jeff. You know, I it's funny. I've spent as much time probably reading Jeff and and listening to Jeff as I have watching you play golf. But um, you know, I always look forward to what you have to say. And you've handled yourself a great class. And that's true of of of you guys as well, Michael and Allen. I really enjoy reading you all. Uh. I owe a huge debt to writers. H You know, it's one of the things that doesn't happen is often now, um is you know I used to just get up in the morning, get a coffee, and then get all the newspapers or periodicals and then read them. And as you read them, you you've learned from writers, and it it spurs you onto ideas. Uh And and now the whole world's taken a logging and uh, you know, it's harder and harder to find in depth, wonderfully written columns. Uh. So you guys are hard to work at that, and I am appreciative of it. Well, when I was an Internet sports illustrated, um I had I was. I dreamed of being a fact checker. That was a step up from being an intern, and eventually I got there. And one of the stories out of fact check was your Diary from Masters, which Gary Van Sickle was the ghostwriter on and um as as I'm sure you remember, Brandon, you played great at the start of that tournament, right and um and kind of you're nibbling around and that was I mean that was probably an eight page feature in the magazine, and um, I feel like that and then you and you and Van Sickle collaborated on a few different pieces, and um like that was kind of your your end, your your entry into the golf media, if you will. I mean you're still in you're playing days, but I feel like those stories kind of launched things a little bit. Yeah. Well, when I got on tour, uh, Gary reached out to me and asked me if I would write a once monthly column for Golf World and so in I started writing a column about you know, you know, being a rookie on tour and what it was like to be a rookie and so I and then I kept writing for Golf World, and then I would write pieces here and there from for Sports Illustrated. And I always wrote them. Um, I always have these around. I would always write them on the yellow leopads and uh and I would fact the story the Van Sickle and then you know he'd clean it up. Um. But yeah, the ninety nine Masters is what that was. But I did, Yeah, but I did, you know, I did write I think the column. I still get a lot of people talking about. I wrote about all the free crap you get as a as a touring professional. You know. I can remember when I turned and I got paired with this fellow named David Sutherland. Do you you ever played with David Zello and Jeff Okay? So, yeah, Kevin brother. So he was he was he was a bit sloppy, you know. Uh, him would be out of his pants. He was un untied and messed up. So I got paired with them one year at the Hawaii the very first time of the year and he's walking, We're walking off the first scene and his shoes are a mess, hymns out of his pants. He's a mess. And I said, David, I said, you know, you can call foot joint and they will send you a dozen pair of foot joints. And uh, he goes get out of here. And I was like, no, no, you're you're on tour. They'll send you whatever. You want. To know, they won't. I'm like, yes, they will, they will. So I had written a column about, you know, like you would die for a free set of anything. When you were in amateur golfer they didn't give stuff away. Uh then they do now not then? You know, just you know, bought clubs, you bought balls, you about shoes. But I remember, you know, getting on tour, the three dozen golf balls and five gloves and any shoes you wanted, and all the hats you wanted and all the shirts you wanted. It's like, good Lord, every day is Christmas on the PGA Tour. I get to play the best golf course in the world and they're paying me for this. Are you kidding me? So anyway, I wrote a column about that, and I and somebody you know, all these people wrote in uh, because I said, you know, I have all these shoes and I don't wear them, and they were like, well, would you send me the shoes you're not wearing. So I literally sent out twenty pairs of shoes two people that were my size. So anyway, Uh, the original point I was making was gratitude writers, so uh and I do. I really do so. I I enjoy your alas. Uh. You alls worked very much. Um, so thank you for having me on. I really enjoyed it. I appreciate it op our past across at some point this year. Yes, thanks for having that was great. Thanks Jeff, Thanks Michael, Thanks Alan. Yeah. So now we have a tradition, Brandle, where you're gonna you're gonna e the podcast and we're gonna we're gonna critique you as if we were Brandle Shamblee sitting in the big chair and at Alive from so clicked a little red button there and then we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna talk about your performance here. But alright, alright, cheers, cheers, guys, take care that that was a good fun. Wow, he's good, good guest. Yeah, well done, Michael. I think we know it wasn't me, but someone might may have broken it along the way. But yeah, no, but that's why. You know, it's funny that I know I said on the podcast, But you know, he's obviously such a thoughtful guy. And um, you know, it's funny how he's become such a lightning rod. But I think it's because he's so good at his job. I mean, like he said, his job is to give opinions and he doesn't hold back, and that's that's a rarity. And as he said, it's it's bad. It's he's not just spouting off. I mean it's grounded in his research and and and people he's talked to and shot linked data and everything else. But when he when you believe something, he he's all in out. That's what makes him such a good analyst. Well that's the job, right, I mean, like, the job is to have an opinion, and he does it with research and um no, god, professional golfers, tour players, my peers don't generally take criticism very well. So um um, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't do it, you know. Um, it's interesting who doesn't tune in. I mean, I've never watched life from two be fair except for it the Majors, and then I watched the Majors and I think him and um no below, I've had a fantastic time going back and forward and to hear two sensible, intelligent people world research argue the same point from other from each side of the argument is fantastic viewing. You know, it's entertaining, you know. Now McGinley is just as good, you know. I mean, it's it's been a great show. It's really added to the Master's week and he was open week and I mean before the coverage rent away and then we just had to kind of talk about it with our friends. But now we actually get more golf, you know. So, um, he's a great addition to the golf land, this guy. But it's not that because he cares so much. You know, he's a lawfa But I feel like, you know, for for you, Jeff, as as Brandal said, there's a lot of people would love to hire you as as an analyst at some point, but I'm not sure you would let it rip in the same way. You're You're you're so discreet and you seem to care so much that, um, you know, it is the job. But it's not It's not a job for everybody, right, Like, it takes a certain personality type as well. Well, I mean, I'm not gleateful, in my opinion, giving like some golf routerers and stuff, right he he's not gleateful lot And you feel like sometimes, I mean, Johnny was, Johnny loved it, and he Johnny loves sort of got out of the fence, and I thought Johnny was great entertainment. Um. Randall same, a little more hesitant, but he still guys because he believes what he's saying. You know, I think it's interesting. I don't know, I would probably sit on the fence more than I should for that role, you know, I kind of well, I mean I think you would. You would do, Jeff. I imagine you would do just as Randall did. You'd find your own way at it. I mean, it was amazing why I had never thought of it this way. But you know, al when you guess in the question about well he was talking about he's going on the air after everything's already happened, I never thought of his job that way before. Um, and of course, but he says something very original all the time. And if Jeff did it I think Jeff would talk about very much from his own perspective of what it's like to be a player at the highest possible levels of the game, which Randall didn't have at times he did, but not not to Jeff's degree. So, Jeff, you would bring the wrong thing to it, just like you know, Alan does this thing differently than I do my thing. But we do basically the same thing, but but but differently. So you know, let me keep John to hit the ball and we'll just do this every now and then. Yeah, although you know what I mean, I feel listen what Randalls saying. I feel that too. And by the time I sit down to right say a game story for the Masters, everyone's been tweeting about it exhaustively, and brand has been on TV talking about it like. That's the challenge for you and I, Michael, is what can we give people to read at bedtime that they have they haven't already heard or seen Like it used to be, you know, you'd have you take, you spend all night your stories do the next day it would come out in the magazine too or three days later, and you could some people would not have really tuned in, or they would have missed it or they hadn't seen the highlights or whatever, but now everyone knows everything instantly. I think our jobs, Um, I look at it the the exact same way the Brandle does, Like what can I give people they haven't already had because they've had a hell of a lot, even by eight pm on you know, Master Sunday or US Open Sunday. So I relate to what he's saying that that's that's the challenge that an ever crowded and faster media environment. It's making you better, I hope, well, I hope. So it definitely makes you think about things differently. You just can't write the obvious story because it's just it's two. It's it's two is done, that's picked over. Yeah, yep, I completely agree with that. You know, I said to my friend McDonald will sometimes stopped on Sunday night after after a major and I'll say I would say that, you know, one thing I'm not gonna do. I'm not going to write the TV show is the TV show was the TV show And I got to give you something that you're not going to get from the TV show. But just what one quick note about Randol and that this whole what our fifteen or so that we had together. It's the golf swing and the golfer and that stationary ball. There must be an absolute magic to it, because there's so much craziness going on in the golf game in professional golf right now, and the three of us are all very, very familiar with it, and there wasn't even a temptation really to go down that road because we're so enjoying talking about the challenges of the game that haven't really changed. But I would say haven't changed at all for four years, which is of course part of the greatness of the old Worse, which we talked about earlier and we'll probably always talk about. But I think it was neat for that hour twenty that we've been together that that drove the whole conversation. And that's because Brandle's starting point, like it is for for for the three of us, is love of golf. And you know, like I've heard from well just very great that you know, people say, no, you know, you should be so grateful Tiger you jous a Tiger. With all due respect to Tiger Woods, you know, I love golf. Who was writing golf before Tiger during Tiger and now after Tiger. Uh. But it's really the it's really the game that got us before the you know, the three of us in the four us of Brandle where there are very different backgrounds and interests and family histories and all the rest. It got us to this place. And that's incredibly neat. That's absolutely well. I think that's a that's a great ending point for this need of fourth Jeff, you have something, I say, no, no, no, that's okay. I think I think Black Marko hinted at um. Wouldn't it be great if there was fun and simple, sort of unifying theory behind golf and we could all just boke out there and just put it into place and hit it. But that's the point, right, It's like that. Did you watch that Stephen Hawking movie recently where his dream was this simple elegant equation that explained it all? You know, the theory is what we're all looking for, this simple elegant equation that explains this unified theory that explains everything. But we're never going to find it. That's the But that's why we play. I think at the core, the very very very cool thing is that we go and hit a golf ball and we make a move that we think is going to make the ball go one way and it goes the other way. For the rest of your life trying to work out why. I think you would hit that, and that's why the whole thing exists. I think you would hate that if there's one simple theory that made golf easy, because I think the quest is what inspires. You got a bet every day, so I don't think you actually appreciate that if if all of a sudden it got figured out and distilled, it's the it's the idea. It's the idea of trying to look for it. That's the joy. Right, Maybe it's there, you know. If you didn't think it was there, you wouldn't bother, you know. But maybe it's there. All right. Well, this has been another need of fourth Um. It's always always a pleasure to get together with two great minds of the game, plus Brandon this time. So Michael, thanks for making that happen. We will be back at it again with with more eclectic guests. UM, I'm going to sign off here for Michael Bamberger and Jeff Ogilvie. This is aland Schip Nuk. This is needed for, thank you for listening, and uh we'll do it again soon. Mm hm oh my god, it's a dangerous group here