One of the most powerful people in Washington today is Senator Joe Mansion, who is the Democratic center from a Republican leaning state, West Virginia. He really holds the key to how legislation is going to get through the Senate. I had a chance to meet with him recently and talk with him at the Economic Club of Washington about his views on a variety of important issues now facing the Senate and the country. Senator, thank you for coming anything new lately, not much. There's been reported in the press that you were spending the weekend in Delaware. Um, anything you can tell us about what happened A nice visit, and I really did. I had a nice visit. Prison. Buy and I've known each other for quite a while, but you know, knowing each other in the political arena and then knowing each other as a person is a different different settings. So since he's been president, we've got to know each other as who we are and who hopefully he knows who I am. And I just basically said to the President, nice and Mr President. My my philosophy of politics is this. When I got involved in I always thought government should be my partner, not my provider. But as a result of the session who had with the president, Um, you think you came away with understanding of where the country is going on all these bills. Well, and I've said this, I think all of you remember, maybe a couple of months ago, I said, I really thought long and hard about taking a strategic pause. My reason for saying that was a lot of the things that were that are in this Reconciliation bill, a lot of the things that we had covered in the a ORP American Rescue Plan at one point nine trillion. And if you look at the American Rescue Plan bill that we did, it covers a lot of the things they're talking about CUP through two and into twenty three. So I didn't see the urgency that someone is going to be left without any type of cover through coming out of the COVID pandemic. And the whole reason about what we did in twenty twenty to the extent we did, what we did was trying to prevent a country from going into a health crisis or financial crisis, and we did that. Now, I said, the unknown was this, we didn't know what the COVID was coming back, the vary ingt of the COVID, We didn't know what it was going to do, and we're still seeing, you know, spikes and valleys and spikes. We didn't know what if if inflation is transitory or not. Now we're finding out it might not be transitory. And then the biggest thing that I had concerns about, what you don't hear people talk about much, was the geopolitical fall out of how we left Afghanistan, because I know what my little cold, cold town I come from, just human nature was if there was a bully and you saw someone smack that bully and make that bully back down, and everybody else is ready to take their shot too. But the finish on the session in Delaware, Um, he's not gonna let this one go, is it? What? Um? Did you leave thinking that we're making progress and that you said that the president, Well, here's my bottom line and if you can deliver this, I you got my vote. I don't think you negotiate. You should know one should ever negotiate with the president, especially or anyone else if you're if you're negotiating in good faith. Yeah, I've always tried to put myself in the other person, but I want the other person to understand who I am. Too. So if they can put themselves to where I am and I put my we reverse roles and look at it. So when I left, I think it was a very positive meeting. We know there's a lot of a lot of things we can do to make more a more perfect union. Um, when you go to President's house like that, I guess you can ask for anything you want to eat, and they serve anything right that goes. They want to make you happy. Right, So we had a good time. Let me tell you the thing we had a good time was, is you know how I kidded him? Uh, you know how he was always supposed to be the poorest senator. He had an eye for real estate, a right, so um, so I told you my semester, presdi do you didn't you're too bad for a poor senator. But let me tell you one thing. And we talked about that and you walked down. But he built the home, and I was very impressed. He did a heck of a job, and he designed the whole thing. We went through it. It's a very nice home in a very nice setting. And and he has some neighbors and one neighbor it's not of his political persuasion. And if he's four inches over for car parks four inches over the sometimes he hears about it. And even when he was President States right now more so when he's president. So when you're negotiating with him or meeting with him, Um, you are you kind of representing a senator of cinema or does she represent herself? No? One thing you learned about being a Senate. If you can take care of yourself, you're lucky. Okay, So all right, so she has her own views and you have her Okay. I respect her very much, and she's a friend of mine, but you know we uh, I think what we bonded. And because I was, I've been adamant. I've been there long enough to vote in against the nuclear bomb getting rid of the filibuster that when at that time Senator Harry Reid did uh, and then in seen when Mitch McConnell did it for Supreme Court. And I've been very steadfast on that. And then to find out I have another person who feels as strong as I do was welcome. Okay. So as all the attention you're getting pleasurable or actually a pain in the something or another, I wouldn't this this position I guess I wouldn't wish it on anybody. And people keep talking about power, you never but I look at this room and all the power in this room, and you all been around, all of us have been long enough and watching life and watching how people, uh, basically navigate life. I've seen people with an awful lot of power that abused it, and I said, why would they do that? And I've seen people that sought power and destroy themselves trying to gain it. And then I've seen people took a moment of time and I'll tell all of you right now, a moment of time is this. We better bring our country together. We better figure out it's United States of America, united not divided States of America. And we better start working on that. But um, the like, in other words, you are the key vote in so many things going on in the Senate and the Center sentem as well. Is that is that fun to be that? There's not? There's nothing fun about it. But I always said this. I kept thinking because I was a governor in two thousand and nine when they were doing American Rescue Plan, I mean the Affordable Care Act, and uh, I kept thinking, if I had been governor if I had been sentator that time to come down to a swing vote like you did with a couple of the modyrates at that time, I think you maybe I could have made a little bit of a difference there. And because I understood how it was delivered in the states and people that were going without and people that needed it, but also people that could have used it and take advantage of it, and I thought there's a better way to do it. Lo and behold, ten years later, I found myself in a position and about every vote fifty Senate who would have thought that had come down to this? Is that your view that we should keep the current Senate filibuster rule for the voting rights bill that you author. The only thing I know I watched the Democrats use it against Trump and a lot of things that we were able to stop, things that just didn't make sense to us. So how can we just two or three two years ago, three years ago, thirty nine Democrats senators led by our leader basically sign letters, please miss McConnell, do not do away with the fellowbuster. Now all of a sudden it becomes all please get rid of because it will help us more. Makes no sense to me, at all the voting rights bill you have authored, a I amended version of the Voting Rights Act that you thought would get for the Senate doesn't seem like it's getting through unless you change the Fellowbuster rules. What do you think is gonna happen on voting rights? Well, let me just tell you. They said I didn't author, Okay, I put I had input because I saw the for the people, and I knew it was aspirational, and I understand everything that you can imagine was in that bill. We're just trying to We're just trying to protect the Voting Rights Act of nine, which got shot down in the Shelby decision in we haven't even fixed that. We haven't even fixed that because basically it went from nine states to thirteen states and then they threw it out with a Shelby decision. And I said, really, all fifty states should be held responsible and accountable. And I couldn't in my mind. When I was Secretary State, we used to have a Secretary State Association meetings. We were always competing who could get the greatest turn out. I can't. And now I'm realizing that people were basically looking at the vantage they would get if people don't vote or certain people don't vote. That's beyond my comprehension. But it's the reality of what we're dealing with. It's got to be corrected. But I can't believe that. My my Republican friends, uh don't see it that way. I just I still can't, you know what. And they keep saying, well, Joe, how many Republicans you got? How many of this? And I'm working and talking to the Republican I keep looking at me, Sist, what have you done? Who was the last person you talked to on the Republican side? Have I need a little bit of help? The debt limit. We've extended it until December. Are you worried about the debt limit not being passed into Sember? It is crazy for us to use that as a as a political weapon. It is absolutely insane. I think that basically the thing that we should do is come to an agreement all the truce and David, what I would say, is the thing that bothers me more. I don't see our leadership working together. I don't see people talking, having dinner or coffee, or even having a conversation on the floor. You'll see a few of us going back and forth and this and that. If you're watching you know, if you are, you're you're, Uh, you're you're more troubled than I thought. If you're just watching c SPAN and seeing us going back and forth. Uh. But the bottom line is is no one's working and talking. So if you're not going to talk and communicate in an easy way to do, get rid of the field of us. That's easy. Sure, all this is easy. Would you be in favor of eliminating the dead limit? Just get rid of the dead liman should be fourteenth Amendment. But the president has the right to make that decision. We have the right to override if we think he went too far. That to me is as simple as it takes all the politicians out of him making a deal. The thing that we got caught in the conundrum right now, the Republican says, we'll fine, I want you to set the deadlom. It's gonna be thirty one trillion, thirty two. You know we're right, twenty nine trillion now, So who's gonna set the one? Set the one? The one we have right now is the eighth four and that's that's going to slide into December. And basically the only way we can do it right now is if if the Republicans would not agree and I don't think that, we should change the rules by ourselves, which is called the nuclear option. This should be something that's done, that's going to hold and saying okay, President has that authority, we have the authority to review and override. Based on your experience, you would expect that sometime in December they'll figure out how to extend it. Before that, I'm pushing it now. We should do it now. It should not come down to the limit again. So if we can't do it and they don't agree on that, the Democrats have the responsibility, being the majority party right now, to do it through reconciliation among new reconciliation. You've got to set a number, and that's our responsibility, and I would take that and do it. What about the continuing Resolution to fund the government? You think that will go to the last minute as well, For everything goes to last minute, and it is a shame because no one's talking up until the last minute and becomes a crisis. We were okay, we can still manage through a crisis. It's a shame that you have to run the greatest country on Earth crisis. Well, the Senate Democrats and the center of Publicans that they socialize or talk to each other very much, or just it's not considered appropriate to be talking to people from the opposite party very much. In the Senate. Well, it's a shame that that that you see some of that going on, that people just don't talk to people that much. And I make a point to have dinner with him or meet him somewhere or just you know, I always do that and try to and I think that's the way, and I think there should be there should be something to where at least the leaders have to have lunch one day a week. I would think that would be good. But you know what we do. We have caucus lunches. All the Democrats go over here, all Republicans go over there. And once a year we had Johnny Isingson would have all the people from Georgia come up and do a big pork thing, barbecue thing, and we'd all get together. But even then it didn't last much longer than now. So you have a Republican colleague in the Senate from West Virginia, Senator of Capital, a very good friend of mine. So how do you we get on good? One night we were I had to go back home. We were voting late and we missed the plane when you had one light at night going back. So I said, hey, Shelley, I said, I'm driving. She said okay, so you wanna ride with me? She thought about it for a minute or two. She says, okay, count me in. So about ten o'clock we take off for West Virginia. And I drive a little bit fast, and some night at night I drive a little bit faster because I know within the speeding by myself. Well, I won't say that. So we were driving and we were going through back. Then we got picked up for speeding. Oh he did. But when that, when you get picked up, I mean, they know who you are, So what do they do? State policeman comes to the Doorney Rosa. Oh my god, he says, he says, governor. He said, no, sender. He was one of the troopers that I had when I was governor. So I thought I was in pretty good shape. So you uh, I guess she didn't get a ticket. Then then when the funny part was this, he looked at me and said, oh my god, is both of you. Are you worried that the Senate and the House could flip to the Republicans in the mid term, because that often happens in these first year Well, we didn't have much of a buffer from going in, Okay, David Is It wasn't like we had a little bit of a bench strength here. I know. So are you worried about this? Sure? I mean you're worried if I'm a chairman right now of a committee which I enjoy very much. I've been ranking before on the committee which is a minority part which Lisa Murkowski was one of my dearest friends and a great partner, and we worked back and forth. But yeah, you're it's much better off when you can control the agenda versus you have to follow but there's nothing you can do about it and tell anything about it, and you can have good sound policy. I've always said this, the best politics is good government, and today that's not we're practicing today. It's not about right now. And I said the Republicans are missing a golden opportunity not to jump on the infrastructure bill and be overwhelmingly bipartisan and taking credit. I've seen people take credit of good legislation to voted against it. I can't believe that happens in Washington. I can't. So is this making you more popular in West Virginia or less popular? And all this attention or it depends on what corner town you go to, so um and you go back. I go back all the time. Yeah, you know, I love my state. And I'm born and raised in a little coal mining town Farmington four or people. And uh, I just I just saw people that worked all the time and kind of shared what they had and took care of each other, and took care of those who couldn't take care of themselves if they were mentally or physically handicapped, the town always picked them up. I mean, I saw all the good in what we are small town America and what the United States is, and I thought, well, and be the old countries that way. West Virginia used to be a solidly democratic state when John Kenny ran from president was a very democratic state. It's democratic state till right, so now it's Republican state. What's changed West Virginia or the country. I couldn't believe, you know. I was very blessed with having good support from Republicans Democrats, independence. You know, I never got the extremes. I never got the far right or far left. And I can understand that, but we never ran our country or our states, or our politics from the far right or far left was always And I told people, I gave a speech one day, the first time we come back off the COVID to Bethany call Age Uh their graduation, a little beautiful or college up in northern northern West Virginia. And I walked on the stage. I didn't they gave me a speech, and I have good, good people here at work with me, and I had just nothing. Where do I say? You've been closer it in for one year and I had nothing on paper or nothing in my mind that I was going to say. As I walked to the podium, I'm thinking, man, I'm blank. I don't want to go to say. And I walked up there and I just apologized. I said, I want to apologize. I am sorry. I am sorry. I've been radicalized. And they looked at me and I don't know how that came out that way. So I've been radicalized. I said, your grandparents have been radicalized, your parents have been Our generation was radicalized because we don't understand what's going on. You understand I never had I never had computers, I never had cell phones, didn't have any of those growing up. So I got my news pretty much down the middle of CBS, ABC, NBC. I'm never free. At one time when John Kennedy was running for president in West Virginia was a swing state, and my parents were all excited. And I didn't know why they were all excited about politics, but the young the young person running and he was a Catholic, and we're a Catholic family, and it was there's not many Catholics in West Virginia, so they were all excited. So I got excited. So we're watching television one night and had to be Walter Cronkite. He said, it's been said that if John Kennedy becomes president of pope were running the country. I looked at my mom and says, boy, he don't know that. He don't know that. The Catholics we know. That's all. That's all I could come up with, because I can figure I never seen by tell Catholic or Protestant or jew anything. They're gonna make their own minds up. You're the only statewide office holder in Western here's a Democrat, right, Oh, yes, it's very lonely. Have you ever thought my life would be easier for you if you shifted to being a Republican? And somebody has said recently that, um, you know people have approached you about doing that every day? Wouldn't like be easier for you to do that? It will be much easier, my goodness? Is that the purpose of being involved in public services? No, I've never I've never thought from this I'm what I'm telling you now is who I am. Do you think by having a D or an I or an R is gonna change who I am? I don't think the RS be any more happier with me than d's are, right now, Okay, I mean that's about as bland as I can put it. So I don't know where in the hell I belong. So, um, it's being governor more fun than being Oh my god, yes, being governor. And I got involved in politics. I was upset because I saw a guy come in one time talk to my father. I was thirty five years old with three kids. I had no intention get involved politics, not at all. And the guy came in. He started talking about favors. This was a local politician, he says when he left. I said, Dad, he made it look like that he was doing you a favor to take care of people of his constituency. He's not doing his job. And I said, I'm gonna run. I'm gonna I'm just got went through me like a knife. I said, I'm gonna run. And Dad says, oh no, no, he don't get involved in politics. That's not a good, good profession. Boy. How prolific he was back then to understand that. And I said, I said, Dad, you're you're a hypocrite. I thought he was going to hit me. And he looked at me and he says, why would you call him? I said, Dad, you always said you want good people involved, have to get good values. They should get involved for the right reason. I said, I think I was raised right and you all, I mean, I think I feel pretty balanced. And he looked at me and he says, you're right. Let's go get him. So so I ran a one and that's how I got involved. I was one of a hundred when I was a House of Delegates. I said, you know what, if I was in the state Senate, i'd be one of thirty four, I have three times the ability to help more people. And then I said, boy, if I was governor, i'd be one oh one. I could really do something. So that's how. And now I'm back to one of a hundred. All right, um, but well you're up for re election in four so you're gonna run again. I'll be seventy seven years old. What do you think that's young? In the Senate? I mean you're young. I mean the President Night States older than that. So uh, I mean that's young. So you haven't decided yet or you want to announce that I haven't. I haven't decided. You know, if I think I can, if I think I can contribute and be productive, and I think this moment of time we're in right now that we can balance some things out and people understand. The thing that bothers me more than anything that I think I've ever had in my political life is I don't hear the word this will be good for our country when we're looking and thinking about fixing a problem until we start, and then someone tries to justify if you're on the right or the left, if you're a Democratic Republican, then saying we're gonna do this because it's good for the country. No, No, you're gonna do that cause good for the party. Well, in uh, twenty twenty four, there's another election president United States. You wouldn't think of running for president. Every one and one wouldn't it. Yeah, it could be like a gomer Why not, I haven't. I haven't thought of that. You have been ruled it out, but you haven't thought about it. You're gonna be a campaign manager. Uh, you wouldn't win if I was a campaign manager. I'm not that good, But so no, I haven't. Now I'm want to support I support Joe Biden. I really, I really think he was the right person at the right time time. We just got to balance things. Do you think the Biden administration is doing nine months into it and they're having will struggle right now? I really think so. And we got to rethink this whole thing. And I'm thinking that. You know, I agree with him getting out of Afghanistan. We should never happy with the way no no one could be happy the way we got out. No one could be happy about that. But there's not a good way to get out of these things. But there had to be. You think better than what we did, so you can look at it from that standpoint. But I think he understands foreign policy. He really does. On some of the things we're working. We've talked about some different concerns we have around the world, and uh, the United States has to be ready to do what we do defend democracy. If the election were held today, the presidential election was held a year or so ago, with West Virginia vote the same way, Westernia is still not that supportive of it. Yeah, I'd still vote for Joe Biden, but I'd be in a minority. And uh, in your view, West Virginia is likely to stay Republican for presidential purposes for the foreseeable future. West Virginia was a Republican, stayed up until the Depression and the depression changes to f DR state. But we were always a conservative Democrat state. We were the northernmost southern state in the nation because we're out in the Mason Dixon line. We never flipped. We flipped in twenty ten, and we flipped. We flipped harder than any southern state ever flipped. The most important issue in the mind of West Virginian's today is what I think the respecting dignity of who they are as a human being, in the society that we have, in the culture that we have, understanding us. We're the hardest working people. But but I don't have enough workers. So I can tell you my state grew in immigration back in the in the early nineteen hundreds. People came miracles. They wanted to work. I need workers. We need people that want a quality of life for themselves and their families and take care of the ones. I have a lot of elderly people, have a high percentage of elderly, and they talk about social reforms. I said, wait a minute. If Social Security and Medicare is not solvent, and the trust funds are not solvent, then you're taking away a lifeline that people have right now, Why should I expand all these so sal services. Well, I can't even pay for what we got. So do you enjoy it being a center with all this pressure on you? Is as fun or is there not? No? There's no fun. There's no I mean here, I don't you know. And neighbor said, how are you taking the pressure? I said, well, I have a responsibility. I have a responsibility to do my job, and I'm gonna do my job, and I'm gonna explain myself. I've always said, if I can't go home and explain, I can't vote for it, you might be my best friend. And if just As just said please, can you give me a pass on this? You know my dad always said, if you can say no with a tear in your eye, you might be okay. And I've been crying a lot lately. Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen.

One of the most powerful people in Washington today is Senator Joe Mansion, who is the Democratic center from a Republican leaning state, West Virginia. He really holds the key to how legislation is going to get through the Senate. I had a chance to meet with him recently and talk with him at the Economic Club of Washington about his views on a variety of important issues now facing the Senate and the country. Senator, thank you for coming anything new lately, not much. There's been reported in the press that you were spending the weekend in Delaware. Um, anything you can tell us about what happened A nice visit, and I really did. I had a nice visit. Prison. Buy and I've known each other for quite a while, but you know, knowing each other in the political arena and then knowing each other as a person is a different different settings. So since he's been president, we've got to know each other as who we are and who hopefully he knows who I am. And I just basically said to the President, nice and Mr President. My my philosophy of politics is this. When I got involved in I always thought government should be my partner, not my provider. But as a result of the session who had with the president, Um, you think you came away with understanding of where the country is going on all these bills. Well, and I've said this, I think all of you remember, maybe a couple of months ago, I said, I really thought long and hard about taking a strategic pause. My reason for saying that was a lot of the things that were that are in this Reconciliation bill, a lot of the things that we had covered in the a ORP American Rescue Plan at one point nine trillion. And if you look at the American Rescue Plan bill that we did, it covers a lot of the things they're talking about CUP through two and into twenty three. So I didn't see the urgency that someone is going to be left without any type of cover through coming out of the COVID pandemic. And the whole reason about what we did in twenty twenty to the extent we did, what we did was trying to prevent a country from going into a health crisis or financial crisis, and we did that. Now, I said, the unknown was this, we didn't know what the COVID was coming back, the vary ingt of the COVID, We didn't know what it was going to do, and we're still seeing, you know, spikes and valleys and spikes. We didn't know what if if inflation is transitory or not. Now we're finding out it might not be transitory. And then the biggest thing that I had concerns about, what you don't hear people talk about much, was the geopolitical fall out of how we left Afghanistan, because I know what my little cold, cold town I come from, just human nature was if there was a bully and you saw someone smack that bully and make that bully back down, and everybody else is ready to take their shot too. But the finish on the session in Delaware, Um, he's not gonna let this one go, is it? What? Um? Did you leave thinking that we're making progress and that you said that the president, Well, here's my bottom line and if you can deliver this, I you got my vote. I don't think you negotiate. You should know one should ever negotiate with the president, especially or anyone else if you're if you're negotiating in good faith. Yeah, I've always tried to put myself in the other person, but I want the other person to understand who I am. Too. So if they can put themselves to where I am and I put my we reverse roles and look at it. So when I left, I think it was a very positive meeting. We know there's a lot of a lot of things we can do to make more a more perfect union. Um, when you go to President's house like that, I guess you can ask for anything you want to eat, and they serve anything right that goes. They want to make you happy. Right, So we had a good time. Let me tell you the thing we had a good time was, is you know how I kidded him? Uh, you know how he was always supposed to be the poorest senator. He had an eye for real estate, a right, so um, so I told you my semester, presdi do you didn't you're too bad for a poor senator. But let me tell you one thing. And we talked about that and you walked down. But he built the home, and I was very impressed. He did a heck of a job, and he designed the whole thing. We went through it. It's a very nice home in a very nice setting. And and he has some neighbors and one neighbor it's not of his political persuasion. And if he's four inches over for car parks four inches over the sometimes he hears about it. And even when he was President States right now more so when he's president. So when you're negotiating with him or meeting with him, Um, you are you kind of representing a senator of cinema or does she represent herself? No? One thing you learned about being a Senate. If you can take care of yourself, you're lucky. Okay, So all right, so she has her own views and you have her Okay. I respect her very much, and she's a friend of mine, but you know we uh, I think what we bonded. And because I was, I've been adamant. I've been there long enough to vote in against the nuclear bomb getting rid of the filibuster that when at that time Senator Harry Reid did uh, and then in seen when Mitch McConnell did it for Supreme Court. And I've been very steadfast on that. And then to find out I have another person who feels as strong as I do was welcome. Okay. So as all the attention you're getting pleasurable or actually a pain in the something or another, I wouldn't this this position I guess I wouldn't wish it on anybody. And people keep talking about power, you never but I look at this room and all the power in this room, and you all been around, all of us have been long enough and watching life and watching how people, uh, basically navigate life. I've seen people with an awful lot of power that abused it, and I said, why would they do that? And I've seen people that sought power and destroy themselves trying to gain it. And then I've seen people took a moment of time and I'll tell all of you right now, a moment of time is this. We better bring our country together. We better figure out it's United States of America, united not divided States of America. And we better start working on that. But um, the like, in other words, you are the key vote in so many things going on in the Senate and the Center sentem as well. Is that is that fun to be that? There's not? There's nothing fun about it. But I always said this. I kept thinking because I was a governor in two thousand and nine when they were doing American Rescue Plan, I mean the Affordable Care Act, and uh, I kept thinking, if I had been governor if I had been sentator that time to come down to a swing vote like you did with a couple of the modyrates at that time, I think you maybe I could have made a little bit of a difference there. And because I understood how it was delivered in the states and people that were going without and people that needed it, but also people that could have used it and take advantage of it, and I thought there's a better way to do it. Lo and behold, ten years later, I found myself in a position and about every vote fifty Senate who would have thought that had come down to this? Is that your view that we should keep the current Senate filibuster rule for the voting rights bill that you author. The only thing I know I watched the Democrats use it against Trump and a lot of things that we were able to stop, things that just didn't make sense to us. So how can we just two or three two years ago, three years ago, thirty nine Democrats senators led by our leader basically sign letters, please miss McConnell, do not do away with the fellowbuster. Now all of a sudden it becomes all please get rid of because it will help us more. Makes no sense to me, at all the voting rights bill you have authored, a I amended version of the Voting Rights Act that you thought would get for the Senate doesn't seem like it's getting through unless you change the Fellowbuster rules. What do you think is gonna happen on voting rights? Well, let me just tell you. They said I didn't author, Okay, I put I had input because I saw the for the people, and I knew it was aspirational, and I understand everything that you can imagine was in that bill. We're just trying to We're just trying to protect the Voting Rights Act of nine, which got shot down in the Shelby decision in we haven't even fixed that. We haven't even fixed that because basically it went from nine states to thirteen states and then they threw it out with a Shelby decision. And I said, really, all fifty states should be held responsible and accountable. And I couldn't in my mind. When I was Secretary State, we used to have a Secretary State Association meetings. We were always competing who could get the greatest turn out. I can't. And now I'm realizing that people were basically looking at the vantage they would get if people don't vote or certain people don't vote. That's beyond my comprehension. But it's the reality of what we're dealing with. It's got to be corrected. But I can't believe that. My my Republican friends, uh don't see it that way. I just I still can't, you know what. And they keep saying, well, Joe, how many Republicans you got? How many of this? And I'm working and talking to the Republican I keep looking at me, Sist, what have you done? Who was the last person you talked to on the Republican side? Have I need a little bit of help? The debt limit. We've extended it until December. Are you worried about the debt limit not being passed into Sember? It is crazy for us to use that as a as a political weapon. It is absolutely insane. I think that basically the thing that we should do is come to an agreement all the truce and David, what I would say, is the thing that bothers me more. I don't see our leadership working together. I don't see people talking, having dinner or coffee, or even having a conversation on the floor. You'll see a few of us going back and forth and this and that. If you're watching you know, if you are, you're you're, Uh, you're you're more troubled than I thought. If you're just watching c SPAN and seeing us going back and forth. Uh. But the bottom line is is no one's working and talking. So if you're not going to talk and communicate in an easy way to do, get rid of the field of us. That's easy. Sure, all this is easy. Would you be in favor of eliminating the dead limit? Just get rid of the dead liman should be fourteenth Amendment. But the president has the right to make that decision. We have the right to override if we think he went too far. That to me is as simple as it takes all the politicians out of him making a deal. The thing that we got caught in the conundrum right now, the Republican says, we'll fine, I want you to set the deadlom. It's gonna be thirty one trillion, thirty two. You know we're right, twenty nine trillion now, So who's gonna set the one? Set the one? The one we have right now is the eighth four and that's that's going to slide into December. And basically the only way we can do it right now is if if the Republicans would not agree and I don't think that, we should change the rules by ourselves, which is called the nuclear option. This should be something that's done, that's going to hold and saying okay, President has that authority, we have the authority to review and override. Based on your experience, you would expect that sometime in December they'll figure out how to extend it. Before that, I'm pushing it now. We should do it now. It should not come down to the limit again. So if we can't do it and they don't agree on that, the Democrats have the responsibility, being the majority party right now, to do it through reconciliation among new reconciliation. You've got to set a number, and that's our responsibility, and I would take that and do it. What about the continuing Resolution to fund the government? You think that will go to the last minute as well, For everything goes to last minute, and it is a shame because no one's talking up until the last minute and becomes a crisis. We were okay, we can still manage through a crisis. It's a shame that you have to run the greatest country on Earth crisis. Well, the Senate Democrats and the center of Publicans that they socialize or talk to each other very much, or just it's not considered appropriate to be talking to people from the opposite party very much. In the Senate. Well, it's a shame that that that you see some of that going on, that people just don't talk to people that much. And I make a point to have dinner with him or meet him somewhere or just you know, I always do that and try to and I think that's the way, and I think there should be there should be something to where at least the leaders have to have lunch one day a week. I would think that would be good. But you know what we do. We have caucus lunches. All the Democrats go over here, all Republicans go over there. And once a year we had Johnny Isingson would have all the people from Georgia come up and do a big pork thing, barbecue thing, and we'd all get together. But even then it didn't last much longer than now. So you have a Republican colleague in the Senate from West Virginia, Senator of Capital, a very good friend of mine. So how do you we get on good? One night we were I had to go back home. We were voting late and we missed the plane when you had one light at night going back. So I said, hey, Shelley, I said, I'm driving. She said okay, so you wanna ride with me? She thought about it for a minute or two. She says, okay, count me in. So about ten o'clock we take off for West Virginia. And I drive a little bit fast, and some night at night I drive a little bit faster because I know within the speeding by myself. Well, I won't say that. So we were driving and we were going through back. Then we got picked up for speeding. Oh he did. But when that, when you get picked up, I mean, they know who you are, So what do they do? State policeman comes to the Doorney Rosa. Oh my god, he says, he says, governor. He said, no, sender. He was one of the troopers that I had when I was governor. So I thought I was in pretty good shape. So you uh, I guess she didn't get a ticket. Then then when the funny part was this, he looked at me and said, oh my god, is both of you. Are you worried that the Senate and the House could flip to the Republicans in the mid term, because that often happens in these first year Well, we didn't have much of a buffer from going in, Okay, David Is It wasn't like we had a little bit of a bench strength here. I know. So are you worried about this? Sure? I mean you're worried if I'm a chairman right now of a committee which I enjoy very much. I've been ranking before on the committee which is a minority part which Lisa Murkowski was one of my dearest friends and a great partner, and we worked back and forth. But yeah, you're it's much better off when you can control the agenda versus you have to follow but there's nothing you can do about it and tell anything about it, and you can have good sound policy. I've always said this, the best politics is good government, and today that's not we're practicing today. It's not about right now. And I said the Republicans are missing a golden opportunity not to jump on the infrastructure bill and be overwhelmingly bipartisan and taking credit. I've seen people take credit of good legislation to voted against it. I can't believe that happens in Washington. I can't. So is this making you more popular in West Virginia or less popular? And all this attention or it depends on what corner town you go to, so um and you go back. I go back all the time. Yeah, you know, I love my state. And I'm born and raised in a little coal mining town Farmington four or people. And uh, I just I just saw people that worked all the time and kind of shared what they had and took care of each other, and took care of those who couldn't take care of themselves if they were mentally or physically handicapped, the town always picked them up. I mean, I saw all the good in what we are small town America and what the United States is, and I thought, well, and be the old countries that way. West Virginia used to be a solidly democratic state when John Kenny ran from president was a very democratic state. It's democratic state till right, so now it's Republican state. What's changed West Virginia or the country. I couldn't believe, you know. I was very blessed with having good support from Republicans Democrats, independence. You know, I never got the extremes. I never got the far right or far left. And I can understand that, but we never ran our country or our states, or our politics from the far right or far left was always And I told people, I gave a speech one day, the first time we come back off the COVID to Bethany call Age Uh their graduation, a little beautiful or college up in northern northern West Virginia. And I walked on the stage. I didn't they gave me a speech, and I have good, good people here at work with me, and I had just nothing. Where do I say? You've been closer it in for one year and I had nothing on paper or nothing in my mind that I was going to say. As I walked to the podium, I'm thinking, man, I'm blank. I don't want to go to say. And I walked up there and I just apologized. I said, I want to apologize. I am sorry. I am sorry. I've been radicalized. And they looked at me and I don't know how that came out that way. So I've been radicalized. I said, your grandparents have been radicalized, your parents have been Our generation was radicalized because we don't understand what's going on. You understand I never had I never had computers, I never had cell phones, didn't have any of those growing up. So I got my news pretty much down the middle of CBS, ABC, NBC. I'm never free. At one time when John Kennedy was running for president in West Virginia was a swing state, and my parents were all excited. And I didn't know why they were all excited about politics, but the young the young person running and he was a Catholic, and we're a Catholic family, and it was there's not many Catholics in West Virginia, so they were all excited. So I got excited. So we're watching television one night and had to be Walter Cronkite. He said, it's been said that if John Kennedy becomes president of pope were running the country. I looked at my mom and says, boy, he don't know that. He don't know that. The Catholics we know. That's all. That's all I could come up with, because I can figure I never seen by tell Catholic or Protestant or jew anything. They're gonna make their own minds up. You're the only statewide office holder in Western here's a Democrat, right, Oh, yes, it's very lonely. Have you ever thought my life would be easier for you if you shifted to being a Republican? And somebody has said recently that, um, you know people have approached you about doing that every day? Wouldn't like be easier for you to do that? It will be much easier, my goodness? Is that the purpose of being involved in public services? No, I've never I've never thought from this I'm what I'm telling you now is who I am. Do you think by having a D or an I or an R is gonna change who I am? I don't think the RS be any more happier with me than d's are, right now, Okay, I mean that's about as bland as I can put it. So I don't know where in the hell I belong. So, um, it's being governor more fun than being Oh my god, yes, being governor. And I got involved in politics. I was upset because I saw a guy come in one time talk to my father. I was thirty five years old with three kids. I had no intention get involved politics, not at all. And the guy came in. He started talking about favors. This was a local politician, he says when he left. I said, Dad, he made it look like that he was doing you a favor to take care of people of his constituency. He's not doing his job. And I said, I'm gonna run. I'm gonna I'm just got went through me like a knife. I said, I'm gonna run. And Dad says, oh no, no, he don't get involved in politics. That's not a good, good profession. Boy. How prolific he was back then to understand that. And I said, I said, Dad, you're you're a hypocrite. I thought he was going to hit me. And he looked at me and he says, why would you call him? I said, Dad, you always said you want good people involved, have to get good values. They should get involved for the right reason. I said, I think I was raised right and you all, I mean, I think I feel pretty balanced. And he looked at me and he says, you're right. Let's go get him. So so I ran a one and that's how I got involved. I was one of a hundred when I was a House of Delegates. I said, you know what, if I was in the state Senate, i'd be one of thirty four, I have three times the ability to help more people. And then I said, boy, if I was governor, i'd be one oh one. I could really do something. So that's how. And now I'm back to one of a hundred. All right, um, but well you're up for re election in four so you're gonna run again. I'll be seventy seven years old. What do you think that's young? In the Senate? I mean you're young. I mean the President Night States older than that. So uh, I mean that's young. So you haven't decided yet or you want to announce that I haven't. I haven't decided. You know, if I think I can, if I think I can contribute and be productive, and I think this moment of time we're in right now that we can balance some things out and people understand. The thing that bothers me more than anything that I think I've ever had in my political life is I don't hear the word this will be good for our country when we're looking and thinking about fixing a problem until we start, and then someone tries to justify if you're on the right or the left, if you're a Democratic Republican, then saying we're gonna do this because it's good for the country. No, No, you're gonna do that cause good for the party. Well, in uh, twenty twenty four, there's another election president United States. You wouldn't think of running for president. Every one and one wouldn't it. Yeah, it could be like a gomer Why not, I haven't. I haven't thought of that. You have been ruled it out, but you haven't thought about it. You're gonna be a campaign manager. Uh, you wouldn't win if I was a campaign manager. I'm not that good, But so no, I haven't. Now I'm want to support I support Joe Biden. I really, I really think he was the right person at the right time time. We just got to balance things. Do you think the Biden administration is doing nine months into it and they're having will struggle right now? I really think so. And we got to rethink this whole thing. And I'm thinking that. You know, I agree with him getting out of Afghanistan. We should never happy with the way no no one could be happy the way we got out. No one could be happy about that. But there's not a good way to get out of these things. But there had to be. You think better than what we did, so you can look at it from that standpoint. But I think he understands foreign policy. He really does. On some of the things we're working. We've talked about some different concerns we have around the world, and uh, the United States has to be ready to do what we do defend democracy. If the election were held today, the presidential election was held a year or so ago, with West Virginia vote the same way, Westernia is still not that supportive of it. Yeah, I'd still vote for Joe Biden, but I'd be in a minority. And uh, in your view, West Virginia is likely to stay Republican for presidential purposes for the foreseeable future. West Virginia was a Republican, stayed up until the Depression and the depression changes to f DR state. But we were always a conservative Democrat state. We were the northernmost southern state in the nation because we're out in the Mason Dixon line. We never flipped. We flipped in twenty ten, and we flipped. We flipped harder than any southern state ever flipped. The most important issue in the mind of West Virginian's today is what I think the respecting dignity of who they are as a human being, in the society that we have, in the culture that we have, understanding us. We're the hardest working people. But but I don't have enough workers. So I can tell you my state grew in immigration back in the in the early nineteen hundreds. People came miracles. They wanted to work. I need workers. We need people that want a quality of life for themselves and their families and take care of the ones. I have a lot of elderly people, have a high percentage of elderly, and they talk about social reforms. I said, wait a minute. If Social Security and Medicare is not solvent, and the trust funds are not solvent, then you're taking away a lifeline that people have right now, Why should I expand all these so sal services. Well, I can't even pay for what we got. So do you enjoy it being a center with all this pressure on you? Is as fun or is there not? No? There's no fun. There's no I mean here, I don't you know. And neighbor said, how are you taking the pressure? I said, well, I have a responsibility. I have a responsibility to do my job, and I'm gonna do my job, and I'm gonna explain myself. I've always said, if I can't go home and explain, I can't vote for it, you might be my best friend. And if just As just said please, can you give me a pass on this? You know my dad always said, if you can say no with a tear in your eye, you might be okay. And I've been crying a lot lately. Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen.