The Daily ZeitgeistThe Continuing Evolution Of White Nationalism 11.07.23
In episode 1577, Jack and Miles are joined by the Senior Researcher of U.S. Hate & Extremist Movements at the Institute for Strategic Dialogue, Jared Holt, to discuss… GAZA and Opportunism, Islamophobia, White Nationalism 3.0, Active Clubs, Second Trump Presidency, 2024 Election, Latest D’Souza Film and more!
LISTEN: Glamorous Damage by GUM
Hello the Internet, and welcome to season three, twelve, episode.
Two of turn Nightly Guy.
Yeah, my production by Heart Radio. Myles is currently doing the little head tilt that dogs do when they're puzzled by your behavior.
Yeah. Well so just look, like we said in the trending episode Daylight Savings, it comes for us all in some way, right. Yeah.
Anyways, Hey ma, this is a podcast where we take a deep dive into america share consciousness.
Do we still want to do that?
Yeah? I guess it's kind of the premise of the show.
I guess we keep Yeah, well, this one's specifically American and yeah, yeah, yeah, we're going, oh yeah, I'm gonna have to open our eyes to some things. Today.
It's Tuesday, November seventh, twenty twenty three.
Oh yeah, this is kind of a bummer day. It's International Merlow Day, National Canine Lymphoma Awareness Day, National Bittersweet Chocolate with Almonds Day. Like that's it, that doesn't that's we don't need that. International Day of Medical Physics. I'm sure that's hopefully that's on the pseudoscience. But yeah, love it all, love it all. Oh, a National retin all Day for all of you skincare people out there.
I practice medical physics every day.
Bro. That doesn't it sound like some fucking Aaron Rodgers asked ship to say, Yeah, I'm I mean nice, partake, partook in some medical physics and things are good. But luckily for us it's it's I'm pretty sure it's it's all about physics. How physics plain to patient care? There you go, so yeah, hope, And from my understanding, physics is a pretty nailed on science. It's not like people are like, nah, not the way I fuck with it.
When you drop a rock from a high height on a patient.
It hurts them exactly. Thank you, physics, Thank you're welcome.
Uh well, my name is Jack O'Brien aka making my way round clowns, walking fast faces, passing. I'm sure bound no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no swear. I don't need depends, just another day, another day, proven it now dinner no no no no no no no, I'm gonna keep doing no no no no no. And I pissed them dinner dent and I peed them do dent and now I wantder If I could go back on that ride, do you think I could convince my wife, because you know, I do a thousand trials if I could just keep my pants dry dinner. Uh that is courtesy of res on the Discord. Thank you for you know, keeping this embarrassing incident from my past top of mind. And I'm thrilled to be joined as always by my co host mister Miles Gressvile's.
Break, I am doll bones, mouse bones, bat bones and go to the chorus. Yeah is really wod okay, shout out Nicole Adrian for that whole rendition. Doll parts. Didn't do the whole thing because I couldn't man man hitting all them Courtney Love. I was smoking. I don't smoked cigarettes anymore, so I can't quite get that rasp out a shout out to Nicole agents.
Plus I had just nailed mine so hard that it would have been hard.
Yeah. Yeah, that was like I forget.
It's like I no, no, no, no, no no no no no no no no.
You know the musicality. Yeah, I did the equivalent of pulling up like during a sprint, because I knew I was getting beat and I didn't want to have that l so I went, ah, my handy, my handy.
My hand when saw the smoke trail behind my vocals that opened this episode. Miles, We're thrilled to be joined in our third seat by today's special expert guests. He is the senior researcher of US hate and Extremist Movements at the Institute for a Strategic Dialogue. To quote Samuel L. Jackson, hold onto your butts because it's the return of ultimania. Welcome back to the show, Jared Hat Jared, Hey, thanks for having me.
Guys.
I kind of feel like the janitor. I think, like when you go see a concert and all the lights come up and like after those musical renditions.
Yeah, yeah, all right, guys.
Hey, hey, oh oh hey, sweeping up around here. I don't have to go home, but you really shouldn't stay here. Guys left a lot of little plastic bags on the ground here. Another one of those shows. I guess.
How you doing, Jared, Hey, I'm doing all right. Where you coming to us from Chicago? Moved here a couple of years ago, and it's getting a little cold here, but love this city.
Yeah, the old two one three three one two three one two damn it.
Yeah, that's so close. Hey, it's Okay, man, it's okay.
We covered this yesterday.
Yeah, literally, But so, Jerry, what's like, because you know, when we first started the show, we had you on when you're working at like right Wing Watch. Yeah yeah, and now like you've there's like a whole lane to be somebody who is so well versed in like extremist semiotics and monitoring extremist movements that like, I just feel like you're always moving up and I'm like, this is this is fair. I love the glow up, but it's always on the back of having to have your head in some of the dark shit all the time. But you're doing well otherwise despite this career path. I just want to make sure because the work you do is fantastic. The work that your colleagues do is fantastic. I could never imagine being disengaged with it, even at the level we do. But but shit, the level that like you guys do is completely it's like completely different.
Yeah, yeah, I'm doing well. I appreciate all that.
It's uh, it's really interesting because I started doing this kind of stuff full time something like eight years ago, right, and I felt like when I was doing it then, I was like the crazy guy on the town square being like here, he, here, he please pay attention to this shit, right, and now it's just like, I mean, I guess I'm glad it's recognized, but it is really unfortunate that, you know, in the grand scheme of things, that it's necessary.
Yeah. Yeah, but so long as.
I can help, you know, that's it's like a calling of mine, I guess, And I don't know, there's it's really dark, but then there's like a little bit of gallows humor that keeps me coming back.
Sure. Yeah.
Would you say, like just kind of having taking a step back, would January sixth be the thing that like made sort of the mainstream world take right wing extremism more seriously?
Was it?
Was it happening before that? Was it Charlottesville? What was the kind of overall pattern?
I mean, I think Charlottesville was sort of the beginning of it. And then in twenty nineteen there were a few really really horrible extremist mass killings. That's when you had like the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting. Christ Church was that year. And then I think for you know, the normies of the world that still didn't get it somehow, it's kind of hard to think of a more powerful image than you know, QAnon ants and car dealership uncles radicalized by the Internet, you know, smashing through the halls of Congress. I think that was pretty hard to you know, look away from or right off. It's like, oh, well, it's just some weird fringe you know, yes, and it's right there in your face.
That's my fucking uncle. Fuck.
I remember how recently it was like such a fringe idea, Like even after right wing extremism was responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing, it was just like there was nobody looking into it. Even after Trump got elected, like there was still like right just people weren't taking it seriously as a threat.
It's because we have such you know, white supremacist reflexes that were like them, no, no, they're nice kids. They have Jacki's on okay, and they're they're not they don't look that imposing. Now, this group of people with these signs over here, I don't know what's going on. It may have to do with their complexion, I don't know, but yeah, like I feel like that always has that's always benefited especially like right wing extremism, is their whiteness or just not whether not being taken seriously or this idea of like, oh, it's nothing, it's just don't worry about that over there kind of shit.
Well, I mean it still does, right, I mean I think about, like, even in the field I work in, which is weird to call it a field now, right, It's every once in a while you'll catch, you know, after some mass shooting or big event in extremism land, a bunch of people trying to offer up all these like different competing theories as to why it happened, whether it's you know, like economic hardsh or whatever. It's like, right, we don't, you know, as a culture, we don't cut this slack or like try to you know, do armchair psychology over other stuff.
You know.
It's it's always interesting to me, like where that gets applied, because that's one of those I think kind of subtle ways that you know, living in a culture defined by white supremacy like comes out even in the field that you know, it is hoping to try to counteract some of that.
Right right, right exactly, But how did they grow up though, these skinhead kids.
It's like, well it doesn't matter because yeah, exactly, let's get to the point, here's a skinhead now and that you know.
You hate to see it, don't you? You hate to see I feel like that's like what people would say, like in news rooms, like ah, you hate to see it? Just these nice kids going on a foul But yeah, talk about today.
Yeah, we got a lot to talk about. We're going to get more into this than the rest of the show as it applies to this present moment in the near future.
Yeah, but before we.
Get to that, we do, of course, Jared like to ask our guests, what is something from your search history that's revealing about who you are or what you're up to. So the revealing one is just me typing in random celebrity names because I don't follow celebrity news at all, So anytime there's like some name I don't recognize that people are talking about, I just assume it's some celebrity and I have to look them up, and then my reaction is usually either like oh, I think I've seen that guy before, or like, oh no, I don't I don't know who that is. Okay, wow, us with your latest, Like who's the biggest person you've had to look up recently?
It's like Margo.
Margo Robbie. Yeah, yeah, I didn't know who that was.
Jared, I.
Not love it.
You're like Joey Gibson, I'll tell you when he was fucking born started Patriot prayer. Wait, who the fuck is Barbie?
Yeah? I know, I know, damn yeah, yeah, I know.
I don't know. No, no, I'm not even saying it was just it's just wild though, like how much wow? In a way that's also it's a blessing.
To mvu sir.
Yeah, Well, I just like don't watch a lot of movies, and I always feel like, you know, I'm missing out on this big like cultural thing, but I I don't know what it is. Maybe the Internet has just like destroyed my attention span or I like or paralysis trying to pick something to watch, but I just don't. I'm not caught up with movies, so like these big names, I just don't recognize that.
Sure it could be forgiven because you're out here looking at the iterations of third wave fucking white nationalism, right, they're like, yeah, yeah, I'm seeing that coming in from a long distance here right now. But what is what is pop patrol?
Right?
Is that? Wow?
And so do you feel what like hell, because I think there's probably a lot of people out there who are like I envy you. I wish I could be unplugged from all the bullshit. Maybe not everybody, but like, do you feel lost in a lot of conversations, what like not knowing who Margo Elise Robbie is. Yeah?
Yeah, So I like to go to like trivia with my friends like every every couple of weeks, and whenever the questions come around, and it's like who was the actor of the year from twenty eighteen?
Who started?
And then they'll just like they'll just say.
Like the movie right, just like I haven't know what right, right? Right? What movie is that?
And they're like, I was Transformers, dude, Yeah, yeah, I remember, yeah, actor of the Year, Actor of the Year from Transformers.
See, I just hope isn't there like ever a moment though you can stunt with your like broad sweeping knowledge of like historical facts and like context where like yeah, yeah, being like what did Ross say as his excuse for going outside of the relationship when he was cheating? Quote unquote, It's like, I don't know what that you know the answer to that, Jared, No, Well, we were on a break. Okay, just you guys don't need to dunk on me. Just let me talk more about it. Apologies.
That's amazing though.
No, but where does it? But does it pay out? I mean, because dude, I know you are such an infinite wealth of like just actual functional knowledge, especially when looking at the current hellscape that is like American culture and extremism. But like, tell me that you at least flip it up on switch it up on him, like y'all need to come to one of my trivia nights.
Oh so I do well with the historical stuff, but where I think maybe a lot of people watch movies and stuff. I'm really into music, so oh hell yeah, okay, so I can do music trivia pretty good.
Okay, all right, good, good check out. I wanted to make sure you have some kind of like creative thing you could look at other than trying to be like what does this Peppi the Frog mean? Which artist? A?
Yeah, no, I that's great, Like I honestly so much my brain is just regurgitating like pop culture quotes and bullshit and like just at random, like yea, you know, someone's like, let's take a quick break while I'm like, you know, my wife and I are running and she's like, let's take a quick break.
And I'm like, we were on a break. Why why did that? What's Yeah, that's help that resonated with me. But Jared is like okay, and yeah.
Yeah, maybe shut up. My wife response, Yeah, what's What's something you think is overrated?
Jared?
AI?
Like what what people call like AI? It's going to be the future. It's like a lot of the same guys that hawked, you know, the like board ape and the n f T s and stuff.
They're all about AI now and.
Like a lot of that technology is impressive, but if you like it still just screws up all the time. I think of all the pictures where it's like we used AI to see what what kind of skateboard George Washington would have written, and George Washington has like five legs.
Yeah, it's like, yeah, I don't know about that.
Or dude, I knew he'd skate alien workshop dude.
Exactly, yeah, exactly, Or like news outlets that are like, oh, we're going to use AI and it's going to like generate the shitty clickbait or whatever that actually pays the bills on our blog and then the the articles just like did you know headphones can help you listen to things from your phone? And it's like I'm yeah, thanks man, Uh.
You're like, what's this article about?
Yeah, and you know it's it's just I the technology is impressive, but I think the doom sayers and the people that are like, this is going to change the world.
Maybe it will, but.
We're not, like it's it's not there yet, you know. I think the biggest risk is this technology getting forced through before it's ready by the people who want to get rich on it, you know. And uh, you know, but generally speaking, I think a lot of it is like razzle dazzle without a whole lot of stuff to like back it up.
It's not like AI is.
Actually conscious if we're anywhere close to anything like that. You know.
Yeah, the razzle dazzle sucks. Like when somebody does razzle dazzle in sports, it's like, man, that was a cool, like little magic trick they did. The razz AI fucking sucks, like Yo.
The wolf is dripped out.
Yeah, yeah, that's the one that's the is one good piece of work.
I will like, Yo, that just that puffer that he was in the fucking ill. Did you wait? Speaking of bard Ape, did you see how they had like a bord Ape convention in like h and all the people got their eyes burned by UV lights. Yeah?
Yeah, And they put out some statement this morning that's like we're away of eye related incidents.
It's incredible. People were like tweeting, I don't did you see this?
Jack people the dance party and people being like this is not how I would want to be blinded. And I did not know what they were saying, so I thought they were just like I don't know. I was like, man, I got to invest in this so I can get all the inside jokes.
Yeah, everyone's like, yeah, you actually have what's called welder's eyes, like from not wearing a fucking mask? Fan? Is that real? Yeah? That's like it's like, Yo, this ship is called Welder's eye. Dude, can you believe?
Can you believe they only paid one hundred grand to get Welder's eye?
Yeah?
I know, Wow, what a deal. It's just it does like I don't take that much joy in it because they're just like they getting dunked on while multiple much money and just tripling down to get Welder's eye.
Yeah, it's like, yeah, because you feel bad like you've been you got got like multiple times. Now it's like you got got by buying these born apes and then you go to the thing that's supposed to be with you and the crew, and then you're getting Welder's I at the fucking dance. Yeah.
The best reaction I saw to it is this writer that I really enjoy, Molly White. She like pull you know, posted a picture of the like avatars of the the apes with like laser beam eyes, and she was like, you know, I totally misinterpreted this. I thought the coming out.
Like, you know, you were getting freelance lasic, you know, ambient lasik happening all around us.
The most imprecise lasick you could have it. It's really just called photokeratosis or carotitis or something like that. Welder's eye. Oh that sucks.
What. There's also like I've seen ads for things that are like I stand with, like Crypto and various things like that, like trying to turn the failure of that product into like a movement where people are I feel like.
I saw that right after the the attacks on like October seventh. Oh really, I don't know, it felt like you were co opting that language for some really fucking sad way to be. Like, I stand with Crypto, ok what anyways, I stand with the bag holders. It sucks for y'all, honestly, truly.
Me, I stand with JP Morgan Chase.
You know, there you go, that's a hutu fun. They've been around, guys, they've been around so long they were handling slave money. Okay, so I think they know they they know what they're doing if they've lasted this long.
Jared, what's something you think is underrated?
I'll say Chicago is a city I feel like it is underloved. But to me, it's like it has a lot of stuff that New York promises, but you can afford to live there if you, you know, have a normal job, and and there's also just kind of like the I don't know, I mean, maybe it's how I grew up or whatever, but I just really vibe with the Midwest spirit of like just being kind of down to earth and like there's just not a lot of bullshit flies here and people are pretty straight up and generally nice, passive aggressive, like any good Midwestern town. But yeah, you know, I feel like it's you know, people can kind of see how it is here and city has a lot to offer. I moved here a couple of years ago with my wife and love it. So I gotta rap Chicago. I've lived here just long enough to be able to, you know, call it home.
So yeah, there you go, gotta wrap it. Yeah, I love Chicago. My dad's family moved to LA from Chicago, so like we I have those roots there too. But I really the last time I went was like in twenty twenty, like like like right before the pandemic started, and I remember having the same thing or like, man, I've been like I would go as a kid, but I hadn't gone as like an adult really who could like go out and like you know, like like oh I'm gonna go check out this restaurant or do other things. And I was really really realizing, like man, I was fucking sleeping so hard on this ship because I was like I came back and be like, yeah, so we should just move to Chicago. Also, I can where everyone's like you're gonna hate the winter. I'm like I want my legs to fucking snap off from the wind, okay, And I know people are like, yeah, wait, till it happens, but allow me that ignorance so I may experience and then come back and say, yeah, yeah, that was a little too much.
But we went there like during it wasn't it wasn't the summer, Like summer Chicago make you fall in love immediately? Yeah we went there.
Oh yeah, I think we're there in January. Yeah it was. I was, and then I went back for Also when the NBA Al Star Game was it that was February.
So you've seen what Chicago has to offer in terms of making your legs snap up. I guess I was like on some like uh like episode two of Lord of the Rings, Like I was like, is.
This all you can conjure? Saraman like, because it wasn't that bad. But at the end of the day, maybe that was a blessing.
All right, let's take a quick break and we'll come back and get into it.
We'll be right back.
And we're back.
Oh we're back.
Oh we're back. So, Jared, something that your institute has been talking about is sort of some of the opportunism happening from the extreme right. It feels like there are like avowed anti Semites that are using the current situation in Gaza to like kind of get their message in under the radar to people that are merely trying to learn more about what is happening on the ground. Are you Are you seeing a lot of this kind of opportunit tunistic rhetoric happening both on the side of anti Semitism and then kind of in other ways on the side of Islamophobia. Yeah, definitely.
I mean any kind of like major cultural flashpoint like this is going to be a big like source of opportunism from extremist groups and on the extreme right, we've seen you know, neo Nazis, white supremacists, you know, all kinds of folks that have these really sort of ingrained anti Semitic beliefs trying to insert themselves into the conversation, and you know, they sort of rehearse these talking points for so long they are absolutely obsessed with Israel and that sort of stuff. So now that that is in the news, you know, I think some of them have been able to, you know, get on platforms like Twitter or I guess it's x N and you know, kind of convey this false sense of authority, right, you know, and maybe they get people in by you know, just kind of sharing news about what's going on or speculation or whatever. And then you know, if they get people along for the ride, then you know, that's when the real shit comes out. You know, this is and these kind of opportunities. You know, I think back to when I started, and you know, I was hanging out on four Chan during the Trump movement and whatever, and you know, to this day, there's this obsession with like red pilling. Not a lot of people like call it that explicitly anymore, but just seeking these little opportunities to like plant these little seeds and try to take these social movements that have a lot of emotion, you know, that are maybe debated or less clear on facts in some cases, like in this one, where there's like both the time zone gap and also just a disparity between like the amount of reporters on the ground that are able to get good information and like have it bounced through and then wind up in a US audience. You know, in that gap, that's where they're trying to leverage things and get people, even if you know they're not going to go to like a pro Palestine protest and walk away with a crowd of two thousand neo Nazis, you know, they want to at least get some of the some of their ideas, even just slightly more popularized, because that has the effect of sanitizing them right when they come out and maybe they're a more extreme version of it. But if people are acclimated at the very least, even if they don't totally believe it, it still gives them an advantage in the discourse. And like being viewed as legitimate or being viewed as you know, being reflective of how people secretly really feel, right is like the greatest gift in the world to extremists.
Because I feel like, who's that was that? One of Benny Johnson? Like a clown?
Clown?
Yeah, like I felt early on he was like tweeting things that seemingly like appeared objective, like about like policies of the Israeli government, and then people are like, dude, this guy is fucking a trash racist, Like like, hold on, the people that just do this is getting a ton of retweets right now. Know that this person has like does not have their head in this for the right reasons. He's purely here to like insert himself to get an audience that is eventually going to switch a certain way. But like when you when you guys do an analysis, you were obviously you're saying like you're seeing like an uptick in both Islamophobic posts and anti Semitic posts, but you're also very you're careful to do the thing, which because right now I feel like we're in this environment where people are conflating Israel with the entire religion of Judaism, or conflating a call for a ceasefire to be anti semitic. But how do you get like, so in that analysis, what were you guys even finding from from from like what's currently happening.
Yeah, so doing analysis over like several platforms on social media, there's no like totally perfect methodology. Sure, so these are like approximations based on like collections of keywords we put together and then sort of calling and refining, you know, getting the trash out of the data and that sort of stuff. But we're seeing increases to the tune of something like four hundred percent or like two and a half time fold when it comes to anti Semitism. But yeah, we try to be really careful in doing exactly what you just said. You know, people criticizing the government of Israel is not like inherently anti Semitic, right, so that should not qualify And again, like you said, calling for a ceasefire or you know, that sort of thing is not necessarily like pro Hamas, right, right. I think the powers that be, like these militaries and stuff, right, would like love for us to just be like at each other's throats, you know, failing to see this like middle humanitarian ground of like what if killing innocent people is bad?
Right? Right?
Period that yeah, what if like children didn't have to die in discriminately right, Like that's but you know in these situations that that sort of headbutt that's happening is just like producing these huge rises in online rhetoric that's like very specifically islamophobic, very specifically anti Semitic, And those trends are also reflected in some of the early like offline data overseeing you know, leaders of synagogues getting targeted, people showing up to pro Palestine protests with weapons, like just north of Chicago and Skoki, someone showed up with like a it's like a paintball gun type it's like a less than lethal gun type thing, but it still managed to like terrorize the crowd and all that. Right, So it's you know, that conversation that's happening online is also reflecting itself in real life. And you know, if you remember or of either one of these communities, maybe rightfully so, you would feel a little bit on.
Edge, right, Yeah, And I'm sure adding to that the utter lack of moderation on Twitter, it's just like it's just a free for all. And I know you guys were pointing out that there's a four hundred and twenty two percent rise in the use of anti Muslim language on x since the start of this, and yeah, like that's why, Like when I first reached out, I was like, I'm really curious to get your perspective on this, because I can I already was seeing, like at the start of this that there were these like people I'm like, I'm pretty sure I know that handle, but for bad reasons, Like I'm pretty sure this person is a scumbag, like neo Nazi, and then they'll just like kind of sanitize their avatar to be like, no, I'm wearing a suit and I have this like I have an Israeli and American flag in it, but I'm also doing this like really like really opportunistic shit. And I can just see how because of how charged the entire situation is, it must be like a very like the like extremists must be just like rubbing their hands together to be like, oh, we can really take advantage of this in either direction.
Really yeah, definitely.
It's like if I mean, if you look at the you know, explosion of the hospital in Gaza, for example, that was that was like a really good example of the information gap that they're exploiting in this situation where there's reports of this explosion, you know, some initial remarks both from you know, government over Gaza and Israel.
Newsrooms in the.
US are trying to figure out what the hell is happening. A few of them fall like flat on their face. A lot of details still aren't clear. But in that gap, you know, which can be several hours, if not days, and you know, I mean we don't we still don't have like the most insane like if you're taking this position of being like inherently skeptical of like government claims right like as far as hard concrete this is one two three what happened, we still don't have that right, and that gap is where the opportunity lies for these folks, because they can come in and say, you know, you should listen to me because X y Z, And while you're here, I've got all this extra shit to say, right, And then that's when they're getting sort of their They're coming in this with ulterior motives, is right, you know?
Yeah?
Yeah, the conflating of anti Semitism and criticism of the Israeli state is where a lot of these extremists are thriving. And then on the side of Islamophobia, as Miles mentioned, your your organization found a four hundred and twenty two percent rise in the use of anti Muslim language on Twitter since the start of the conflict. But it's like it feels a little bit different there because so much of the US government and like mainstream media's official default position, like since two thousand and one, has had a lot of Islamophobia baked into it.
So, like, how are you.
Guys, It seems like that this is metastasizing, Homophobia is metastasizing in real time as this conflict is happening. How do you see how do you kind of track that and how are you seeing it change currently? Yeah?
So the numbers are you know, an analysis of data that we're pulling off platforms using you know, both third party tools tools. We have methodologies we have in house to do this kind of stuff. But when it comes to I think what you're speaking to Jack is like the mainstreaming effect of this stuff, and that's a lot harder to track. We are like actively at the drawing board on that, like how can you quantify or like illustrate in an unobjectable way or undisputable way a mainstreaming effect. So that's kind of a work in progress. But I will say generally, to see this kind of stuff also reflected in institutions and individuals that should know better and have a lot of power and sway in society is totally disappointing.
And a lot of.
Research shows that when people in those positions of authority in a society make positive statements, you know, condemning this sort of thing, discouraging people from engaging in violence and that sort of stuff, it actually does have an effect on people. Yeah, so it's to me when I see that kind of stuff reflected, I just think it's like a forfeiting of a certain moral responsibility than as a leader in a society I think you should be compelled to, right.
Yeah, yeah, we're seeing people resigning from The New York Times for expressing opposition to the killing of innocent Palestinian people. So yeah, it's a crazy time. Your organization recently released a report about white supremacy three point zero, which got me excited because I thought there might be some crypto that I could purchase involved with this because web three point oh, you know, you got to strike while the iron's hot, these prices are low, you got to buy the dip.
You know, you lost so many you know, you lost so much money on the apes. You know, you gotta find you got to figure out how to make that bad.
I told him, I said, there's some racist imagery in that ship to Jack, I don't know, I.
Said, I'm blind right now, So how many wen?
I don't know what design, bro, But yeah, I mean like this is it is wild because yeah, like seeing this idea of white supremacy, white nationalism three point oh like was like, okay, wait, so we're doing we're talking about third wave racism basically, so one point oh being what like skinheads like that era, which was that what we call one point zero.
So one is yeah, kind of the old school before people started doing point ohs, right, yeah, yeah, beta uh you know the one point oh or I guess like like all right, one point oh that would be like the counter Currents blog Vdair Richard Spencer's of the World, because that was like, you know, these kind of like older folks, a lot of them were writers and whatnot. Two point zero would be you know, sort of like Charlottesville and what happened after that, and a lot of one point oh types were like part of the two point zero. It's not like these are completely distinct groups or movements or whatever. And then like a three point oh now is you know, kind of its own mess. I think it maybe makes sense to think of it less in terms of like generations and maybe more in terms of tactics, right right, Like the version one was all about like propaganda, you know, small groups on local levels. Whatever two point oh was, you know, that big attempt to go mainstream, really soaking in the Internet using that to full advantage. And this three point zero is almost like a little bit of return to form, going back to that local model, but with like a whole host of baggage that came from like the years before.
Right, because like even the term right is coming from their movement. It's not something you guys like, point yeah, it's not like we came up. It's like for their own internal purposes, like we need a white nationalism three point zero for lack of a better word, and like for them, the aim is sort of to be able to make this their their ideology basically palatable to normal people. Is like kind of like a huge part of this three point oh push right.
Yeah yeah, and you know you would think that, but actually it's you know, our it guy called us and was like, hey, we've we've got the leadst update for white nationalism. We have to refresh your computer.
Yeah, point h.
So I need you to sign on to team Viewer now or zend us. I'm gonna walk in through. Is this a scam? No, But like yeah, like it feels like like to your point, like the tactic now is like okay, maybe that didn't work. What we really need is to be able to just kind of blend in and seem normal, so this becomes an acceptable kind of ideology to subscribe to. And they have very like their tactics are different now too, even for recruiting right.
Yeah, yeah, I mean so the report we're talking about is about something called active clubs, which we can talk about in a second, but more generally in the white supremacist movement and just far right movements overall, they've kind of realized something that the evangelical right has known for decades, that like any effective organizing in the last few decades, has understood very acutely, which is that winning a national office is hard. Running a candidate for president is hard. You know, even state government positions can be tricky, but school boards, city council, you know, like trying to get a sheriff him, right, Like a lot of these are local elections that are won by you know in a lot of places. You know, maybe not a Chicago go or in LA or whatever, but like a lot of places in the US can be one with like a matter of a few hundred votes, right, So there's more opportunities to take power there. And then you know, by harassing these low level governments and threatening people showing up at all these meetings, you know, going nuts, creating a hostile environment. A lot of these folks that ran for these local offices didn't sign up for that shit. They don't have resources to like be safe when that shit's happening, Right, So a lot of them resign, Like a lot of election officials on the county level have resigned, you know, over the last few years.
I just saw a report about that recently, about how there's a lot of election officials that are resigning. People like, buckle up for twenty four then, because this is exactly the kind of situation like extremists want.
Yeah, because there's a big opening, right, and if these offices are easier to win, if it's easier to get their policies through, like their dream vote policies, or at the very least smacking on policies they don't like, you know that, if that happens at scale, then the idea of national candidates of you know, big organizations starts to become more feasible.
Right.
It's like the most time tested way to gain political power, which is start at the bottom and work your way up.
Right, All right, let's take a quick break and we'll come back. We'll keep talking about this strategy and we'll get into active clubs.
We'll be right back, and we're back.
And so a lot of what we're talking about is like this opportunism to try and like show up at these flashpoint media events and where they think cameras will be to you know, make themselves a peer. Are more numerous. Like we've talked before about what's.
The mother's group Mothers for Liberty, Yeah, Moms for Liberty that like oftentimes you know, they're they're not very numerous, but they show up at other people's school board meetings, and that that happens at a lot of these like people are showing up at protests who don't have kids going to that school.
Yeah, but they don't even live in the county.
Yeah, but they're spreading that ideology around to make it to make it seem like it's more common, right, Yeah.
Yeah, I mean part of the calculation there is that they think maybe a'll inspire someone else to do this too, right yeah.
Yeah.
And then a lot of it is just like bolstering influence because it's it's about creating like a certain perception, right because if you're maybe less so on like neo Nazi groups for example, but like if you're a Mom's for Liberty, you can maybe get the ear of a politician a little bit easy.
Here.
If it's just like Look, we're the ones that actually show up and do stuff. Look, everyone's scared of us. They've got you know, we got all this media coverage. We'll look at all these clips of whatever, like we could we we can do that for you, but we need some you know, classic political power broken, right. But creating sort of this larger than life perception is extremely common on the phone, right, because if you look at polling on what they actually believe, it's not popular. Like, so you have to like create the perception that you are more acceptable than you are generally and then use that to try to leverage your way to like get into more rooms or have more of a lane to run in politically.
Right, which is kind of like bittersweet because on one hand, like I remember, like locally right in Glendale, there was huge clashes with people who were merely just trying to be like, uh, let's not criminalize like curriculum that acknowledges like LGBTQ people, And you had all these like extremists out there with their like protect our kids nonsense. But a lot of people who like locally monitor like the extremists right here, like it's the same like seven to twelve people who just change shirts, show up at another thing, and scare the shit out of people because they're like, damn, like, there's a group for this, there's a group for this. But a lot of it, to your point, is just to sort of project this sort of like idea that it's like they're there's they are numerous, and they are legion, they're everywhere. Yeah yeah, yeah, that like to the and that like which is frightening because you think, like, holy shit, even where I live. But on the other side, just make it bitter speed. You're like, Okay, this is a tactic obviously, because that is it's all about the perception, because perception is reality, and if they have they're perceived to be this like larger than life group, then maybe the reactions that they're going to get from people. I was like, I don't know, I don't know if I could fucking fuck with this or step to this kind of kind of shit.
Yeah yeah, And I also just want to like say all that with the caveat that like one person can be dangerous. Yeah yeah, like even if these people aren't actually like under the sewer grades like ready to jump up and snatch you off the street or whatever, like it's these groups can still cause a lot of harm, right, Like, especially violence committed in the name of hate or whatever. It can really really impact communities and like very profound ways. Right, So I don't want to like say any of that to minimize the risk or threat here, right, But like it also is important if we think about like what to do about it, to realize that like the source of these problems that might seem really big, Like you said, it's the same twelve guys.
Right, right, So just taking a soft topic for a second, wait, like what they believe is not popular. But then when you look at the polls for the and obviously we don't like put a ton of stock into poles, but the polls for the twenty twenty four presidential election would have Trump like winning again, I guess partially because Biden.
Is so unpopular.
But like, how do you square these small numbers of people who are thinking very strategically but like using you know, basically smoke and mirrors to make themselves seem more popular, more mainstream to people who are willing to vote for Trump at this point when he has gone like fully down the rabbit hole of being you know, just buying into his own conspiracies and steering into the death cults that wants him as its sort of messiah figure. Yeah.
I mean the way I think about it is, and I have to remind myself this all the time, which is that like not everybody is like terminally addicted to news, like sure right, Like like the same way that I, like, know, Jack shit about movies and Hollywood. It's like what a lot of people are towards politics where they're just like, oh, yeah, who's Like you can put like Lindsey Graham on the screen and people will be like, yeah, he's like a politician.
Right, John Lithgow, you know, so yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I think that, you know, kind of the stories that the campaign tells is going to be a lot more important sort of the vibe they generate.
And you know, I heard this like.
Political polster consultant guy, I forget his name, but he said something that sort of stuck with me a while ago, which is that like a lot of times, presidential elections are just reflections on who's currently in office. If people are unhappy with like Biden, that's you know, just as likely to push someone to vote for Trump rather than you know, versus like a really deep committed thing where he's like, oh, you know, Trump said he won all fifty states, and you know what, I think that's true, and that's why I'm going to vote for Trump. You know, I think it's I think a lot of people just don't get that deep into it, which is kind of know. I'm not saying everybody has to get as deep as meat. God, no, please don't, but like, you know, I do wish there was maybe like a little bit better political. It's not political civics, like just just more engaged civics in the US.
You know, there's more of us than them.
Right and yeah, and like to this point, it's people are like, oh, I mean, I don't know, I don't know what half of these policies are. I just like that, I don't know. I just like Trump more like I couldn't tell you what systemic oppression looks like. And so I'm not necessarily like explicitly signing up for that. I just I just don't care. But also I like the vibe here I think is yeah, definitely one way people are voting, Like I guess in terms of like recruiting now, because like obviously, on its face, some of like obviously a lot of most, if not all, of their ideologies like repugnant to most like normal people. What's like now the way they're like, okay, shit, it didn't work when we're wearing like Nazi uniforms in public. What is the How can we bring more people into this in a way that seems more palatable? Like that's is this all sort of like this is kind of why this active club's movement is like on the rise.
Yeah, I mean that's part of it. Like the whole white supremacist movement isn't doing this, but they all seem to be like kind of generally like curious or at the very least like kind of indifferent to it. It's long been a recruiting tactic of white supremacists to kind of pick out like guys when usually men specifically that you know or maybe kind of like down if that makes sense. You know, they just their life just kind of isn't working out and whatever, and they're looking for something to fill it, and they say, check it out, I got something to fill it.
It's hate.
So you know it along comes active clubs, which have been around for a little bit but really really seem to have taken off in the last year, and active clubs. Part of it sounds fine, right, You meet up with your bros, you work out your you know, form these strong male friendships and bonds. Sounds cool, right, that's so fast, you know, And essentially, like all these guys get together, they get that sense of camaraderie, they get you know, some level of self improvement, and then they are just bludgeoned and like indoctrinated and also with very intense white supremacists or you know, just outright fascistic philosophy and an outlook. And some of these groups have felt emboldened by that, you know, gotten to a point where they're feeling kind of feeling themselves and they're going out and getting involved in you know, there was a may or all election in Tennessee where one of the Active clubs got like really plugged into it. A lot of them are showing up alongside other white supremacist groups for protests and you know, dropping banners down the sides of highways and waving signs around and whatnot. So you know, it's it's really kind of taken off in the last year, and it's it's very It's like some of the Nazis are getting buffed now, right, right, So I remember a simplistic way to put it, but.
Yeah, I remember there was like a group in Orange County that were just like these brawler like neo Nazi dudes, and that was like, I think the first time I had seen it sort of framed as like, no, these guys that get together to like box and do like jiu jitsu and shit, just so they can go out into the streets and just you know, attack people, but like using like those skills that they're cultivating as this group to explicitly deploy against people like the LGBTQ community or like against Jewish people or whatever their their targeted group is.
And yeah, like it's now like it's to the point where it seems like from the report that came out from ISD, it's like it's really blowing up in the Pacific, Northwest, New England, in the southeast now.
Yeah, yeah, and they are trying to get it to replicate everywhere else too, but it's it's really caught on in those areas. A lot of those areas have you know, these sort of historical contacts with the far right. I think maybe they have a little bit more like social space to operate in. And you know, part of it is also just like the people doing this, where do they live? You know, they all right in this or an area, but yeah, there's like a few parts of the country where they're sort of concentrated there and then just generally recruiting, like the active clubs do this the same way other groups do and movements do right like, because not everybody in the far right is in some like group where they have a membership card and like show up to meetings, or most of them aren't. I would say, it's just this portrayal, not necessarily initially is like you have to come come be a white supremacist because white supremacy is awesome, right. A lot of it has to do with you know, othering and then projecting hate grievances onto out groups, which are often minority groups in these cases. So it's you know, essentially the argument is like the world is just so fucked up that.
What are you gonna do.
If you go along with this, you're gonna get destroyed. Come with us, We'll help you out, you know, we'll we're gonna fight back against this, and we're gonna do you know, counteract this modern grievance that we have. And yeah, I mean that that's used in these groups, that's used sort of across the extremist spectrum generally to get people in the movement. It's like it's all centered on like the like what you're opposing, rather than like a very clear and coherent like direction forward.
Do you see this working to the extent of like that there?
We're in danger of seeing this thing just like take off in a second Trump presidency because I think a lot of people are coming to terms with the fact that, like a second Trump presidency is a real possibility. We feel like there's going to be more shamelessness, like more just open aggression on his behalf and on behalf of his administration. But do you do you like, how do you see like these these things interacting with you know that that possibility.
I mean, we saw extremist groups get really bold during the first Trump administration, and I think a lot of that had to do with things that Trump was saying and had to do with stuff that was happening behind the scenes, like you know, defunding task forces, looking at domestic extremism and that sort of thing that essentially gave like a longer leash to these folks. They were kind of feeling themselves thinking, you know, okay, we're really getting somewhere. We you know, have a popular political movement on our side. Here we go some extremists, like some of the more like really really hardcore ones are not huge on Trump but kind of still dig a little bit what he represents. I definitely think it's possible that, you know, a lot of these movements just kind of go buck wild, you know, if it's like a gloves or off the moment, right, because if you look at the Trump campaign how it exists now and sort of like how it looks like it's about to manifest ahead of next year, the whole theme is like you're mad at the stay of the world, Well I'm your retribution, right, Like come with me, come on the journey that I'm on, and then this is how we're gonna get.
Those motherfuckers, right, and that's I'm going up for you like for me, right.
That is the same message these groups send to people they're trying to recruit. So I think even if it does, you know, will there be an active club on every block?
Probably not?
Right, Like things are trending away from like really tightly like hierarchical groups and the extremist movement at the moment, but the general like energy of them and the general like tactics and to some extent like vision or shared enemy that they perceive like that, I could see that getting really energized. So I think, you know, while active clubs are like an important piece of this equation, and they're getting bolder and showing up at you know, city councils and kind of getting out in the wild a little bit more and posing you know, specific you know, really immediate threats to people in the broader schemes of things. I think that you know, in a second Trump presidency, unless things just radically change overnight, we could see a lot of sort of the animating forces behind this stuff really just like scream out and burn bright, yeah, happy stuff.
Yeah. And that's so horrifying. And I think as we all look towards next year and being like, oh, fuck, man, like, what what are we in for this time? You know, I know you talked about Dinesh Desuza's latest quote unquote whatever film you want to whatever you want to call it, cinematic Masterpieces, whatever. Yeah, sorry, yeah, the Criterion collection. But like you were saying, like about how much is like about vibes you know that are being put out there? And I feel like there's a there's probably something we can learn right from this Dinish to SUSA piece of trash work of media that's come out that is maybe a little bit instructive or at least can indicate sort of where rhetorically this like movement is headed at least into next year. Can you like just sort of talk about that. I mean, I know broadly what this thing was about, but unlike you, I did not actually do the work to subject myself to watch the whole two hours of it.
This is a police state, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, to be clear, the work was spending twenty dollars and giving up two hours of yeah, precious time that the and.
You won't get those two hours back. And I apologized, but yeah, yeah, yeah, but I'll make it. We're worth something for us.
I'll have to explain that to my grandkids one day. Yeah, right, your grandpa, you spent two hours watching this book.
I saw your credit card statements. Are you sure you run into like right wing stuff? No? I was monitored. Ah, I can't keep telling you kids this shit. But yeah, what is police state kind of showing us? Like, what what kind of glimpse is it giving us?
So police State was put out by Zanesh This, who's a damn bond Gino, biggest head in the right wing commentary game. Literally in a literal sense. Yeah, And it's like the name suggests it seeks to answer the question is the US becoming a police state? It it answers the question for itself, like the first like five minutes of the movie where they're just like, is it becoming the police state? And dam Bongino is like, hell, yeah, brother, it sure is. And it's like okay, cool, sorry, and then there's another hour and fifty minutes ago. But so it kind of goes around talking to all these different cranks. Some are just like weird and personalities. Some are like one of them is a guy who got fired from the Trump White House for speaking out a conference with white nationalists, which like, you know, I had to be bad to get fired out of that Trump administration for that. You've got people like Julie Kelly in there who have made a shit ton of money and fame doing like January six, revisionism, and it's all kind of trying to put together this argument through different stories of conservative activists getting you know, punished by law enforcement, Trump getting investigated by federal law enforcement and charged with crimes, you know, the way that some January sixth defendants, you know, experienced arrests and stuff, to all say that the United States, yes, is becoming a police state and it's you know, Democrats that are doing it and Republicans are actually opposed to it, and Trump, oh he is, he's the biggest victim of it, all right, know, And it's a very American thing to be like scared of your government and to like, I think, just in your heart a little bit hate it. And I do think that, you know, it's the stuff that was said in the movie, like is stuff that's been said in the pro Trump movement, like ad Nausim for the last year and a half, at least probably the last two years. So it's not that like there's a whole lot of new stuff in this movie.
But for the people that.
Aren't like terminally online, I'm thinking of the people that actually like show up to shit in your local Republican party office or your like local you know remnant of a tea party, conservative group that has a lot of sway in the state elections or whatever. They watch this stuff, right, They're getting their talking points from this stuff. And Dinesh Desusa is like very close to Trump world. Dan Bongino is very close to Trump world. So when I was watching this, it wasn't necessarily that I was just like, oh my god, where are they getting this from?
Right? Right, right?
I've heard all this stuff like forever, but or it feels.
Like forever anyway.
But the way that it was packaged, right, I thought was, I hate to say it, but it was like one of Disus's better movies in terms of just sheer production value. And I do wonder, like, what if you're like a Republican that hasn't fully drank the kool aid, will this resonate with you at all? Or is this like a movie by cranks for cranks right.
Right, yeah, Because it seems like at the end it's sort of like these people are getting in trouble with law enforcement for breaking laws. It's a police state. It's kind of like the distillation of it. But I can see how some people who are clearly like sort of on the like rhetorically, they're like, no, whatever Trump does is in a crime. This is actually, this is just they're coming for us. Because I'm in that, I have that worldview is that they're coming for us, and I feel like that probably very neatly overlaps with that, especially to have people who are there like no, I'm like, it happened to me. And that's why you the viewer should also be tuned into this.
Yeah, the world is changing in ways you don't like, but if you do something about it, the police are going to come for you. And the only way to fix this is electing Republicans. It's kind of like the message of this movie. And yeah, like you pointed out, like a lot of the retellings in this movie of people that were like supposedly targeted by the deep state really don't explain why. It's just they came after me and attacked me because I was a mom who's vocal in my community.
Now because hard cut, I was a mom who I'm sorry.
Actually, you were involved in a like you were implicated indirectly in a plot to like steal voting machines. That's why the FBI.
Showed rut you right, like it came with someone who like presented themselves as law enforcement to gain access to machines. And now you're like, I didn't know well, and now I guess it's my turn. But yeah, how could they do that? Yeah? Yeah for real, it's uh yeah, all of it adds up, you know, for a very very you know, I feel we're just we just got to buckle up again. It's like I thought twenty twenty just happened, and I was like, this is gonna be a fucking nightmare. But we're we're fully stepping into another one now between just everything that is happening online in physical space, and like even with Trump's trial, you can see how much it's energizing people too, because he fully now gets to be like, here it is, folks. They're trying to do everything to me while most of us are like, is anything going to happen? Really? Who knows?
Yeah, and when it does, they feel like this sort of propaganda seems like it has him positioned to actually benefit from when he actually faces consequences, because then they'll just be like, see, we told you it's all.
If they can put a president in jail for doing crimes, think of what they can do to you when you did crimes.
That's right.
Yeah, I always thought that people got in trouble for doing crimes. It is kind of a brilliant strategy because they get to star in a spy movie that isn't really happening, so they just like get the fun and none of the consequences. Like they're like, there's this anecdote from Mother Jones article like who somebody who went to see the film in theaters because it was out for like two days and the author, Yeah, police state the to sue the film. The author says, perhaps the most unsettling part of the film occurs at the end, when Desusa calls on the audience. They sing a national anthem in solidarity with the January sixth political prisoners, one of whom was portrayed by an actor wearing an orange jump soit all around me. So this is in the theater, all around me. People jumped and chanted Usa Usa, and then they sang along. As we exited the theater. I overheard a guy urging his friends to cover their faces on the way out because obviously the deep State would be there watching. They'll be taking pictures, he warrant, to which his friend replied, I'm surprised I haven't gotten a knock on the door already.
Oh boy.
But it's like, yeah, so this allows them to like cause play as like a scot Yeah, victims, victims victims. Yeah, cool spy Simon in True Lies.
You know.
Yeah, well, Jared, it's I wish I could say it's been fun, but it's been very enlightening. And we really appreciate you doing the work of kind of monitoring this stuff and letting us know what what's happening, because it feels like we're we're on the precipice of some other bullshit this time. So so thank you for helping fill us in. Where can people find you? Follow you all that good stuff. I'm on Twitter and Blue Sky at Jared L. Holt.
But what's way more important is that you go to Instagram and follow my dog at Pierre Turbo. He's a nine point eight pound Pomeranian. He's way cooler than me. And if you've listened to this point in the show, you've heard enough of this shit, So like, definitely go check out my dog for a little bit, check out Pierre Pierre, and then you can catch up with me later somewhere else.
Yeah, I thought you're gonna be like, it's more important that you go follow the Institute for Strategic Dialogue. Oh, that's that's probably That's probably what I should have said, Nah, that I'm following your dog.
That's helpful.
Is there a work of media that you've been enjoying.
One of the shows that I did watch was on Netflix they like get John Gottie docuseries. That was really good and that was really entertaining, and that's like classic you know, New York mob history and I have like a I'm always like fascinated.
By that stuff.
So it's yeah, yeah, I recommend that that was good.
Awesome, Miles. Where can people find you as their work media you've been enjoying?
Find me on the at base platforms at Miles of Gray, and also find Jack and I on our very not news politics or news and politics podcast Miles and Jacket, where we talk about the game of basketball. And also you can find me on what is It four fiance? Check that out. Let's see a tweet I like this is from Lucas Fabraro at Lucas Ferbraro was like replying to just like a like someone was showing how a new York Times headlines is how like the passive voice is just so wild because like it' said New York Times explosion Gossin say was airstrike leaves many casualties in dense neighborhood. Like, I'm sorry, what explosions they call airsta And then Lucas did a photoshop looks like a New York Times cover on September twelfth, two in one with the Twin Towers. It says, explosion happens twin towers damaged, witnesses report planes flying overhead. That's what that looks like. But yeah, it feels like a very It's kind of what we're dealing with now. We look at how cold?
How could the planes do that?
Yeah?
Right? How could the explosion? Yeah?
Yeah? Like just the lack of clarity, it's just so insidious, man.
And when you learn journalism in school, like they teach you not to do this.
There's really no good excuse for this. Truly tweet I've been enjoying.
Marianna Zi tweeted, did you know if you lose a sock in the dryer, it comes back as a tougher wear lid that doesn't fit any of your containments that explains fucking everything.
Wow, do you keep them? You keep those lids? Oh, I know you're talking about I rage quit them.
I got a shed full of those motherfuckers.
That storage unit filled with the didn't even open the door. Yeah.
I also like this tweet from Dave It'scoff. He retweeted a still image from the New York Marathon and it had Helen o'biery, who's one of the runners, and it says born on December thirteenth, nineteen eighty nine parentheses, same day as Taylor Swift and David Coff was like, work your angle NYC Marathon, which it's just like all the sports are like, how do we relate sport to Taylor Swift? Right, find a runner who has the same birthday. Anyways, You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore O'Brien. You can find us on Twitter at Daily Zeitgeist. We're at the Daily Zeikeist on Instagram. We have a Facebook fanpage and a website Daily zeikeist dot com where we post our episodes and our footnote where we link off to the information that we talked about in today's episode. Well, is this song we think you might enjoy myles, What song do we think people might enjoy?
I was listening, so you know, Tame and Paula is obviously Kevin Harker, but everybody in that band, they're also in like a ton of other bands. So if you like Tame and Paula, there's a chance that one of these offshoot bands you would also like. Case in point is Gum, which is led by I believe he's the guitar like one of the le guitar players in Tam and Paula. And this track is called Glamorous Damage. And if you like the Tam and Paula vibes, you're definitely gonna fuck with this track. So this is Glamorous Damage by Gum g U M dam.
All right, well, the Daily Zeik is the production of iHeart Radio. For more podcast from my Heart Radio is the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows, that is gonna do it for us this morning. We are back this afternoon to tell you what is trending and we will talk to you all then Bye bye,
