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I Guess denis of professor of economics and public Policy and the author of the best selling book The Deficit Myth. She's featured in a new documentary, Finding the Money. Please Welcome, Stephanie Calton.

I Guess denis of professor of economics and public Policy and the author of the best selling book The Deficit Myth. She's featured in a new documentary, Finding the Money. Please Welcome, Stephanie Calton.

Definitely welcome.

Definitely welcome.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Is a fascinating documentary. I will say, you are you are setting out correct me if I'm wrong, to fundamentally change how people see money. Yeah, that's a big ask and we got about seven minutes. I think a place to start is with MMT, Right, MMT, if you can help us defile what MT is, and I think what the narrative with the narrative you're hoping to get across with MT, what is the new economic narrative? It's no longer pull yourself up by your bootstraps. What is MMT telling us?

Is a fascinating documentary. I will say, you are you are setting out correct me if I'm wrong, to fundamentally change how people see money. Yeah, that's a big ask and we got about seven minutes. I think a place to start is with MMT, Right, MMT, if you can help us defile what MT is, and I think what the narrative with the narrative you're hoping to get across with MT, what is the new economic narrative? It's no longer pull yourself up by your bootstraps. What is MMT telling us?

So?

So?

In economics is widely known as the dismal science, right, because well, that's what MMT is trying to do better branding, because you know, in the dismal science, it's all about scarcity and we can never have the things that we want because there's always this really intrusive problem, which is, how are you going to pay for it?

In economics is widely known as the dismal science, right, because well, that's what MMT is trying to do better branding, because you know, in the dismal science, it's all about scarcity and we can never have the things that we want because there's always this really intrusive problem, which is, how are you going to pay for it?

Where is the money going to come from?

Where is the money going to come from?

And the problem is that we treat money like just any other scarce good or service.

And the problem is that we treat money like just any other scarce good or service.

In the economy.

In the economy.

And what MMT is doing is saying, hold on a second, we're not on a gold standard anymore. We have this thing called a fiat currency. And it does make people nervous because a fiat currency sort of opens up space and it's kind of like, wait, is money real after all? And so MMT is an economic framework that tries to have an honest conversation that talks to people like grown ups, not in soul people, by telling them that you have to treat the government's budget like a household budget and speaking down to people. We want to be honest about the monetary system we have today, the capacities of the government to spend when you have a fiat currency and you're not tying your currency to gold and promising to convert into something that you could run.

And what MMT is doing is saying, hold on a second, we're not on a gold standard anymore. We have this thing called a fiat currency. And it does make people nervous because a fiat currency sort of opens up space and it's kind of like, wait, is money real after all? And so MMT is an economic framework that tries to have an honest conversation that talks to people like grown ups, not in soul people, by telling them that you have to treat the government's budget like a household budget and speaking down to people. We want to be honest about the monetary system we have today, the capacities of the government to spend when you have a fiat currency and you're not tying your currency to gold and promising to convert into something that you could run.

Out of, like physical gold.

Out of, like physical gold.

So we're opening up a conversation where there are still limits and you still have to make choices, but we can have an adult conversation about how the government can actually operate its budget when it doesn't face the same kinds of constraints that a household or a business face.

So we're opening up a conversation where there are still limits and you still have to make choices, but we can have an adult conversation about how the government can actually operate its budget when it doesn't face the same kinds of constraints that a household or a business face.

I guess by that. I think that the big headline with this as well is the way we look at what the deficit means.

I guess by that. I think that the big headline with this as well is the way we look at what the deficit means.

Correct.

Correct.

Yeah, like I hear.

Yeah, like I hear.

Deficit, You're hear it in the news. You hear every politician talking about a deficit equals bad yep. And the major narrative of MMPT modern monetary theory is deficit good.

Deficit, You're hear it in the news. You hear every politician talking about a deficit equals bad yep. And the major narrative of MMPT modern monetary theory is deficit good.

Correct, Every deficit is good for someone in parly financial terms.

Correct, Every deficit is good for someone in parly financial terms.

And I'll tell you why, because you're right.

And I'll tell you why, because you're right.

We use this word and it sounds inherently like something's gone wrong.

We use this word and it sounds inherently like something's gone wrong.

If somebody is in deficit, there's a problem.

If somebody is in deficit, there's a problem.

Right.

Right.

You don't want to turn on the sporting game and find the announcer saying that your team is going to have to come back and overcome a seven run deficit if they're going to win the game. It's always a bad thing, right. But actually, if you think about what the government deficit is, it's just the difference between two numbers, that's all it is.

You don't want to turn on the sporting game and find the announcer saying that your team is going to have to come back and overcome a seven run deficit if they're going to win the game. It's always a bad thing, right. But actually, if you think about what the government deficit is, it's just the difference between two numbers, that's all it is.

So what, Yeah, I want to relase, Well, I guess we'll find that fine.

So what, Yeah, I want to relase, Well, I guess we'll find that fine.

Ing fine, It's fine in the sense that it's just a benign mathematical, like it's the difference between two numbers. It's not even higher order math, right, It's just how many dollars the government spends into the economy each year versus how many they take back out, mostly through taxation. So simple math. If they spend one hundred dollars into the economy and they only take ninety dollars back out, we label it a government deficit, and somebody records it as a minus ten on the government's ledger. What we forget to do is to recognize if they put one hundred in and only take ninety out, somebody gets ten. So the government's deficit is matched or mirrored by a financial surplus in some other part of the economy.

Ing fine, It's fine in the sense that it's just a benign mathematical, like it's the difference between two numbers. It's not even higher order math, right, It's just how many dollars the government spends into the economy each year versus how many they take back out, mostly through taxation. So simple math. If they spend one hundred dollars into the economy and they only take ninety dollars back out, we label it a government deficit, and somebody records it as a minus ten on the government's ledger. What we forget to do is to recognize if they put one hundred in and only take ninety out, somebody gets ten. So the government's deficit is matched or mirrored by a financial surplus in some other part of the economy.

Is wait, hang on, so did you guys meet backstage or something? Because what the hell? What is MMT? What?

Is wait, hang on, so did you guys meet backstage or something? Because what the hell? What is MMT? What?

What?

What?

What's MT? What is? What does MT stand for?

What's MT? What is? What does MT stand for?

You? Hand it?

You? Hand it?

So it's modern monetary theory, and so again the currency we're not under the old standard.

So it's modern monetary theory, and so again the currency we're not under the old standard.

We're in the modern fiat age to what we have.

We're in the modern fiat age to what we have.

Yeah, what's well is a good car as you get.

Yeah, what's well is a good car as you get.

What you're walking around with. If you've got some of this stuff in your wallet is a tax credit? So those dollar bills that we're walking around with, we think of that as money, right, And we can use it to transact, We can use to buy and sell thing, We can use it to make purchases of.

What you're walking around with. If you've got some of this stuff in your wallet is a tax credit? So those dollar bills that we're walking around with, we think of that as money, right, And we can use it to transact, We can use to buy and sell thing, We can use it to make purchases of.

Goods and cases.

Goods and cases.

And money is good.

And money is good.

It's good to have it generally, and it's really good to have when you got to pay your taxes because this is what the government expects us to hand over at.

It's good to have it generally, and it's really good to have when you got to pay your taxes because this is what the government expects us to hand over at.

The end of the day.

The end of the day.

Okay, okay, money is good. I'm with you so far.

Okay, okay, money is good. I'm with you so far.

But let's do this.

But let's do this.

What about that government deficit that you just mentioned, right, And I said, every government deficit is good for someone? Why because it's just a financial deposit into some other part of the economy.

What about that government deficit that you just mentioned, right, And I said, every government deficit is good for someone? Why because it's just a financial deposit into some other part of the economy.

The question is good for whom and good for what?

The question is good for whom and good for what?

The government can increase its deficit to do things like feed hungry kids, tackle the climate crisis, fixed crumbling infrastructure.

The government can increase its deficit to do things like feed hungry kids, tackle the climate crisis, fixed crumbling infrastructure.

All of those things are ways.

All of those things are ways.

To use a government deficit that might have desirable results for people and for the economy.

To use a government deficit that might have desirable results for people and for the economy.

So money is good, deficit is good. I'm with you so far.

So money is good, deficit is good. I'm with you so far.

So what's the bad? What's the problem? You have?

So what's the bad? What's the problem? You have?

A big part of the problem is the way that we've been.

A big part of the problem is the way that we've been.

Taught to think about these things to try to stamp out deficits, to reduce them, to view them as inherently dangerous. They're not inherently dangerous, and as I just said, they can be used to help us accomplish important goals in the economy.

Taught to think about these things to try to stamp out deficits, to reduce them, to view them as inherently dangerous. They're not inherently dangerous, and as I just said, they can be used to help us accomplish important goals in the economy.

So, for example, if I go to Caesar's Palace and I borrow like twohenty dollars in my credit card, I put it on red and I lose everything that's good.

So, for example, if I go to Caesar's Palace and I borrow like twohenty dollars in my credit card, I put it on red and I lose everything that's good.

That's bad.

That's bad.

Wait why is that bad?

Wait why is that bad?

Though? Then?

Though? Then?

But doesn't the casino.

But doesn't the casino.

It's good for the casino.

It's good for the casino.

And also, don't go to Caesar's Palace. That's a little ghost person.

And also, don't go to Caesar's Palace. That's a little ghost person.

It's bad.

It's bad.

Maybe go to MGM or this is something. But financially that's bad for him.

Maybe go to MGM or this is something. But financially that's bad for him.

But that's bad for you.

But that's bad for you.

But the point is to try to figure out and to wrap our heads around what it is we're actually capable of doing, because we're always told that we can't tackle big problems that we face. We can't deal with housing problems, or education, or climate, infrastructure, social security and medicare always come up, and everybody always says the same thing, we can't afford it. We have this deficit or we have this national debt where are you going to find the money to do these things? And so MMT comes in and says, look, it's not about finding the money. The money is created when the government spends, Congress authorizes the spending, and if the votes are there, the money is there.

But the point is to try to figure out and to wrap our heads around what it is we're actually capable of doing, because we're always told that we can't tackle big problems that we face. We can't deal with housing problems, or education, or climate, infrastructure, social security and medicare always come up, and everybody always says the same thing, we can't afford it. We have this deficit or we have this national debt where are you going to find the money to do these things? And so MMT comes in and says, look, it's not about finding the money. The money is created when the government spends, Congress authorizes the spending, and if the votes are there, the money is there.

The thing you have to watch out for is inflation.

The thing you have to watch out for is inflation.

So it isn't as if it's a free lunch. There are no constraints, there are no limits. There are limits, and the limit is inflation. You can't run out of money, but you can run out of things to buy.

So it isn't as if it's a free lunch. There are no constraints, there are no limits. There are limits, and the limit is inflation. You can't run out of money, but you can run out of things to buy.

I mean, so this is correct me if I'm wrong, But if I'm going nutshell here, your essential argument is we're not bartering back and forth like this is an avatar for gold in our pocket. The government makes money. They can decide how much money goes out there. Right, you pay taxes. They don't need our taxes to fix big problems. They can make big money. It's on them to figure out how to spend it and put it into the economy in a way that can get big things done. And then the private businesses they're the ones who have the money. The government just has created that situation, and inflation becomes the boundary that they have to act underneath correct.

I mean, so this is correct me if I'm wrong, But if I'm going nutshell here, your essential argument is we're not bartering back and forth like this is an avatar for gold in our pocket. The government makes money. They can decide how much money goes out there. Right, you pay taxes. They don't need our taxes to fix big problems. They can make big money. It's on them to figure out how to spend it and put it into the economy in a way that can get big things done. And then the private businesses they're the ones who have the money. The government just has created that situation, and inflation becomes the boundary that they have to act underneath correct.

Well done, well done, you do.

Well done, well done, you do.

She's a published author and created a movie and still assholes won't do the research. But here, here's the pushback.

She's a published author and created a movie and still assholes won't do the research. But here, here's the pushback.

Here's the pushback memorizing the Wikipedia pitch.

Here's the pushback memorizing the Wikipedia pitch.

But here's the argument.

But here's the argument.

Here's what's so compelling. And Ronnie is a great he's a useful idiot in this, and people are scared. I don't know a lot about money, and I think the narratives are our money. Teach me to be afraid of it. It's something that we shouldn't talk about because I don't understand the underpinnings of it. And I think what it's compelling about. Your argument is we can and have, like World War two, have figured out ways in which to create money and fix big problems. It's we almost need a giant, We need a big thing to focus on to get those problems done correct, to get the narrative around it, like I think it.

Here's what's so compelling. And Ronnie is a great he's a useful idiot in this, and people are scared. I don't know a lot about money, and I think the narratives are our money. Teach me to be afraid of it. It's something that we shouldn't talk about because I don't understand the underpinnings of it. And I think what it's compelling about. Your argument is we can and have, like World War two, have figured out ways in which to create money and fix big problems. It's we almost need a giant, We need a big thing to focus on to get those problems done correct, to get the narrative around it, like I think it.

Helps in COVID was that big thing for a period of time where governments around the world suddenly stopped asking the question how are we going to pay for it?

Helps in COVID was that big thing for a period of time where governments around the world suddenly stopped asking the question how are we going to pay for it?

And what are we going to do about this deficit?

And what are we going to do about this deficit?

And they just pulled out I'll use the phrase the money bazooka, Right, countries realize that they're going to have to spend a lot of money to shore up people's lives and livelihoods through the pandemic. And so we spent some five trillion dollars just in the first twelve months or so of the pandemic. And I wish that climate was going to be that catalyzing event that kind of forces everybody to have that wake up moment and realize that we've been focusing on the wrong sorts of problems, that we really can tackle the problem of climate change.

And they just pulled out I'll use the phrase the money bazooka, Right, countries realize that they're going to have to spend a lot of money to shore up people's lives and livelihoods through the pandemic. And so we spent some five trillion dollars just in the first twelve months or so of the pandemic. And I wish that climate was going to be that catalyzing event that kind of forces everybody to have that wake up moment and realize that we've been focusing on the wrong sorts of problems, that we really can tackle the problem of climate change.

We can afford it. We got to watch out for inflation.

We can afford it. We got to watch out for inflation.

Sure, Okay, Sure, So you'll say that MMT can be used to solve issues that we claim that we have no money for by basically the government making money, because that's where money comes from. Right. And you're saying, but doesn't that increase inflation inherently if you just keep making money?

Sure, Okay, Sure, So you'll say that MMT can be used to solve issues that we claim that we have no money for by basically the government making money, because that's where money comes from. Right. And you're saying, but doesn't that increase inflation inherently if you just keep making money?

Well no, I mean the government has run deficits most of my life, with the exception of four years during the Clinton administration, the government's budget has been in deficit. Look at a country like Japan, They've had large deficits every single year for the last thirty years or so and no inflation to show for it, and we hardly had any inflation. Inflation didn't really become a problem until COVID came along and started breaking supply chains, and then wars in Ukraine and food and energy prices and so forth. But you can have large and persistent deficits without having an inflation problem. It's when those deficits collide against the backdrop of constraints in the real economy, where the economy can't resource, can't keep up and satisfy that demand. That's what happened in the COVID pandemic and in World War Two.

Well no, I mean the government has run deficits most of my life, with the exception of four years during the Clinton administration, the government's budget has been in deficit. Look at a country like Japan, They've had large deficits every single year for the last thirty years or so and no inflation to show for it, and we hardly had any inflation. Inflation didn't really become a problem until COVID came along and started breaking supply chains, and then wars in Ukraine and food and energy prices and so forth. But you can have large and persistent deficits without having an inflation problem. It's when those deficits collide against the backdrop of constraints in the real economy, where the economy can't resource, can't keep up and satisfy that demand. That's what happened in the COVID pandemic and in World War Two.

So if it happened in World War two, and it happened in a COVID pandemic where inflation got out of control, where we had you had basically a limited spending on one single issue World two, Well, COVID then helping you. Well, you know what's evidence that MMT will work? Then if we had two real examples, I'm just jo yeah, no, no, because someone just briefed me on that and I'll just repeat it.

So if it happened in World War two, and it happened in a COVID pandemic where inflation got out of control, where we had you had basically a limited spending on one single issue World two, Well, COVID then helping you. Well, you know what's evidence that MMT will work? Then if we had two real examples, I'm just jo yeah, no, no, because someone just briefed me on that and I'll just repeat it.

So the evidence that it works is that MMT is a description of how government finance always operates, whether you have a budget deficit, a budget surplus, or a balanced budget. MMT is at work providing the explanation. So it isn't about ramping up deficits and running large chronic deficits. You can have a good, healthy economy in some cases, whether relatively small deficit or maybe even with a balanced budget. It depends on a lot of other things. So the evidence that it works is that it's a description, and we think a more honest and accurate description of the monetary system we have and how governments actually pay their bills.

So the evidence that it works is that MMT is a description of how government finance always operates, whether you have a budget deficit, a budget surplus, or a balanced budget. MMT is at work providing the explanation. So it isn't about ramping up deficits and running large chronic deficits. You can have a good, healthy economy in some cases, whether relatively small deficit or maybe even with a balanced budget. It depends on a lot of other things. So the evidence that it works is that it's a description, and we think a more honest and accurate description of the monetary system we have and how governments actually pay their bills.

Now, as a I guess in theory how this takes greater effect and affects our lives and gets big things done Green New Deal that was a big part of the way in which we be funded. We need to start looking at money like through an MMT lens. Correct. That's also presupposes that you do have this paradigm shift that we start to see as a country as a collective, we start to see the usage of money differently. But getting people to have a cohesive change of mind and the way they see the world seems like impossibility. From the experiences I've had out on the road and at Thanksgiving, well look like how much of like, do we live in a culture where we can experience a paradigm shift or is that in and of itself an impossiblity.

Now, as a I guess in theory how this takes greater effect and affects our lives and gets big things done Green New Deal that was a big part of the way in which we be funded. We need to start looking at money like through an MMT lens. Correct. That's also presupposes that you do have this paradigm shift that we start to see as a country as a collective, we start to see the usage of money differently. But getting people to have a cohesive change of mind and the way they see the world seems like impossibility. From the experiences I've had out on the road and at Thanksgiving, well look like how much of like, do we live in a culture where we can experience a paradigm shift or is that in and of itself an impossiblity.

I hope. So, I mean TikTok is there. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. We're going to get better.

I hope. So, I mean TikTok is there. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. We're going to get better.

Nope.

Nope.

But it's stuff like this, right, It's conversations like these that allow people to hear a different perspective.

But it's stuff like this, right, It's conversations like these that allow people to hear a different perspective.

And also I think, you.

And also I think, you.

Know, look with the what the last couple of years, what we've done, in some cases on a bipartisan basis and in some cases just with Democrats. But you had the Inflation Reduction Act, which is the largest climate bill we've ever had in the history of our country. We have the Chips and Sciences Act, which big investments in actual productive capacity here in the US, and the bipartisan Infrastructure Bill, which is repairing roads and bridges and you know, taking care of our infrastructure. So those are three big packages, which I would are you are just an extension in many ways of what the administration started doing with the COVID spending. And it's just another example of the government being able to mobilize the financial wherewithal to commit to spending money that it doesn't have because the money comes from the willingness of Congress to say yes. When Congress says yes and writes those bills, the legislation is the set of instructions that goes to the government's bank, the Federal Reserve, and it says we've committed to making these payments. Your job is our fiscal agent, is to carry out all of the payments we've authorized on behalf of the US Treasury. And that is just how government finance works. It's no more complicated than that. But we complicate it with stories about taxes and borrowing and debt and all the rest of it. But at the end of the day, the spending is really easy to carry out.

Know, look with the what the last couple of years, what we've done, in some cases on a bipartisan basis and in some cases just with Democrats. But you had the Inflation Reduction Act, which is the largest climate bill we've ever had in the history of our country. We have the Chips and Sciences Act, which big investments in actual productive capacity here in the US, and the bipartisan Infrastructure Bill, which is repairing roads and bridges and you know, taking care of our infrastructure. So those are three big packages, which I would are you are just an extension in many ways of what the administration started doing with the COVID spending. And it's just another example of the government being able to mobilize the financial wherewithal to commit to spending money that it doesn't have because the money comes from the willingness of Congress to say yes. When Congress says yes and writes those bills, the legislation is the set of instructions that goes to the government's bank, the Federal Reserve, and it says we've committed to making these payments. Your job is our fiscal agent, is to carry out all of the payments we've authorized on behalf of the US Treasury. And that is just how government finance works. It's no more complicated than that. But we complicate it with stories about taxes and borrowing and debt and all the rest of it. But at the end of the day, the spending is really easy to carry out.

Well, you see, you're a very smart person. You're saying things very calmly. Yeah, and everything seems like it's fine. So how do we get to what would you what can people walk away with like if.

Well, you see, you're a very smart person. You're saying things very calmly. Yeah, and everything seems like it's fine. So how do we get to what would you what can people walk away with like if.

They want to like not be sad when they look at the who is always his questions? How do I not be sad?

They want to like not be sad when they look at the who is always his questions? How do I not be sad?

What's the what's the what's like the practical application? Because you'll you'll, well, I guess we just the three of us sat down here and we decided that the deficit is fine, and we can well okay, then so okay, so well.

What's the what's the what's like the practical application? Because you'll you'll, well, I guess we just the three of us sat down here and we decided that the deficit is fine, and we can well okay, then so okay, so well.

But what's the next step.

But what's the next step.

Why would you actually, let's say we believe in MT or yeah, MMT. What what? What's the next thing? That I mean is belief enough? Do I just have to pray to MMT and then it what? What has to happen next?

Why would you actually, let's say we believe in MT or yeah, MMT. What what? What's the next thing? That I mean is belief enough? Do I just have to pray to MMT and then it what? What has to happen next?

Who else?

Who else?

What has to happen next is that the people that we elect to represent us have to go in there and and take decisions using the incredible power that they have called the power of the purse. That they've got to take decisions about whether to fund programs, whether to cut programs, not on the belief that they ought to be operating their budget like a household. But when these decisions come up about Social Security and Medicare, or continuing with the Inflation Reduction Act and staying you know, in the game on climate change and going even beyond what that legislation did. What I think gives me hope anyway, is that we've demonstrated what we're capable of and that we can build on it and not revert back to old ways of thinking about austerity and the need to reduce deficits, because that's when you hammer your economy. That's when people have a lost decade. That's when all of a sudden, you know, the prosperity that is within reach starts to slip through our fingers.

What has to happen next is that the people that we elect to represent us have to go in there and and take decisions using the incredible power that they have called the power of the purse. That they've got to take decisions about whether to fund programs, whether to cut programs, not on the belief that they ought to be operating their budget like a household. But when these decisions come up about Social Security and Medicare, or continuing with the Inflation Reduction Act and staying you know, in the game on climate change and going even beyond what that legislation did. What I think gives me hope anyway, is that we've demonstrated what we're capable of and that we can build on it and not revert back to old ways of thinking about austerity and the need to reduce deficits, because that's when you hammer your economy. That's when people have a lost decade. That's when all of a sudden, you know, the prosperity that is within reach starts to slip through our fingers.

So when the irs comes from my taxes, I just got to tell them, like yoll, deficit is good.

So when the irs comes from my taxes, I just got to tell them, like yoll, deficit is good.

Don't worry about it. Don't worry boy that you need to You know what you need to do.

Don't worry about it. Don't worry boy that you need to You know what you need to do.

You need to take some THC or some d MT and let.

You need to take some THC or some d MT and let.

The MMT just wash over you.

The MMT just wash over you.

Let the paradigm shift come to you.

Let the paradigm shift come to you.

Ronnie Jack, Yeah, I think I'm in it right now.

Ronnie Jack, Yeah, I think I'm in it right now.

Well, Finding the Money will be released in select theaters nationwide and on demand May third from More information go to Finding moneyfilm dot com. Seventy Keelton, We're gonna take a quick break.

Well, Finding the Money will be released in select theaters nationwide and on demand May third from More information go to Finding moneyfilm dot com. Seventy Keelton, We're gonna take a quick break.

I guess the rights of staff right out of the New York fore who.

I guess the rights of staff right out of the New York fore who.

Lato's book is called Filter World, How Algorithms Flattened Culture. Please welcome Kyle, Shake up, Kyle, Kyle, Kyle.

Lato's book is called Filter World, How Algorithms Flattened Culture. Please welcome Kyle, Shake up, Kyle, Kyle, Kyle.

I like this book. I'll tell you why.

I like this book. I'll tell you why.

I've been in grumpy asshole about culture for years now, and this book validates so many of the things I've been telling other people.

I've been in grumpy asshole about culture for years now, and this book validates so many of the things I've been telling other people.

Tell me, how am I right?

Tell me, how am I right?

How?

How?

How do algorithms flatten culture?

How do algorithms flatten culture?

How has everything gotten worse in the past second or something? I like seeing the sticky notes by the way, like this is a demonstration.

How has everything gotten worse in the past second or something? I like seeing the sticky notes by the way, like this is a demonstration.

I'm really on all of this. Please it's like a for me.

I'm really on all of this. Please it's like a for me.

But yeah, I think we're surrounded by these machines right now, which are algorithmic recommendations, and everything from your email to your Facebook feed, to your text messages to a TikTok video, it's all sorted for you. So I think that kind of affects culture in two ways. Whereas consumers we become more passive, we're like more accustomed to just getting stuff handed to us that already agrees with our viewpoint and like our tastes. And then on the other side, the creators of culture kind of have to mold their work to fit these algorithmic platforms. So they have to figure out what works on Instagram, what works on TikTok, and then like adapt their work to that rather than just doing what they might want to do on their own.

But yeah, I think we're surrounded by these machines right now, which are algorithmic recommendations, and everything from your email to your Facebook feed, to your text messages to a TikTok video, it's all sorted for you. So I think that kind of affects culture in two ways. Whereas consumers we become more passive, we're like more accustomed to just getting stuff handed to us that already agrees with our viewpoint and like our tastes. And then on the other side, the creators of culture kind of have to mold their work to fit these algorithmic platforms. So they have to figure out what works on Instagram, what works on TikTok, and then like adapt their work to that rather than just doing what they might want to do on their own.

I actually you mentioned here, which I think is a good example of it, and part of what you ruminate on is this generic coffee shop. Tell me about that.

I actually you mentioned here, which I think is a good example of it, and part of what you ruminate on is this generic coffee shop. Tell me about that.

Yeah, it was this kind of coffee shop design that I started encountering just traveling around as a journalist, probably around twenty fifteen twenty sixteen. And I think everyone can recognize it, especially in New York if you've been to almost any cafe around here. There's white subway tile on the wall, there's reclaimed wood furniture, there's hanging Edison bulbs with those like exposed wires. There's succulents and little ceramic.

Yeah, it was this kind of coffee shop design that I started encountering just traveling around as a journalist, probably around twenty fifteen twenty sixteen. And I think everyone can recognize it, especially in New York if you've been to almost any cafe around here. There's white subway tile on the wall, there's reclaimed wood furniture, there's hanging Edison bulbs with those like exposed wires. There's succulents and little ceramic.

Jars, a neon sign that says I love.

Jars, a neon sign that says I love.

Absolutely avocado toasts and script or whatever. And I think the reason why you find this everywhere, like whether you're in Beijing or Berlin or Los Angeles or a bali or wherever you go, is because our tastes have kind of been homogenized by platforms like Instagram. So there's like a particular aesthetic that works for Instagram, and everyone puts it out there, and then everyone else on the platform slowly copies that. And I think that's true for a coffee shop owner, which I interviewed a bunch of for the book, but it's also true of musicians or a chef making a kind of food that looks good on Instagram or a producer making a beat for TikTok. So I think we're all kind of getting funneled into these weird tracks.

Absolutely avocado toasts and script or whatever. And I think the reason why you find this everywhere, like whether you're in Beijing or Berlin or Los Angeles or a bali or wherever you go, is because our tastes have kind of been homogenized by platforms like Instagram. So there's like a particular aesthetic that works for Instagram, and everyone puts it out there, and then everyone else on the platform slowly copies that. And I think that's true for a coffee shop owner, which I interviewed a bunch of for the book, but it's also true of musicians or a chef making a kind of food that looks good on Instagram or a producer making a beat for TikTok. So I think we're all kind of getting funneled into these weird tracks.

And when I visit coffee shop like that overseas all around America, I.

And when I visit coffee shop like that overseas all around America, I.

Feel at home those places familiar to it.

Feel at home those places familiar to it.

No, it's true, but I mean the point is, like I hate social media as much as anybody.

No, it's true, but I mean the point is, like I hate social media as much as anybody.

Everyone can testify to this.

Everyone can testify to this.

I hate social media, testify, So this is this is But when we'll talk about algorithms pushing taste, I mean, just to be Devil's advocate a little bit, Like we've had aesthetics become popular before computers existed. So how much of this is algorithms and how much of it's just humans kind of having this like the meta game of human art. Yes, it's kind of finding a balance to what everyone kind of likes.

I hate social media, testify, So this is this is But when we'll talk about algorithms pushing taste, I mean, just to be Devil's advocate a little bit, Like we've had aesthetics become popular before computers existed. So how much of this is algorithms and how much of it's just humans kind of having this like the meta game of human art. Yes, it's kind of finding a balance to what everyone kind of likes.

We're always chasing each other, right, Like culture is a process of copying stuff and finding a style that works in the mainstream. But I think now we're just really in these funnels that are directing us in like a bigger and faster way toward each other. Like we're all being shoved into these set tracks much more.

We're always chasing each other, right, Like culture is a process of copying stuff and finding a style that works in the mainstream. But I think now we're just really in these funnels that are directing us in like a bigger and faster way toward each other. Like we're all being shoved into these set tracks much more.

Than we were.

Than we were.

I guess I'm saying how much of this is algorithm's fault and how much of this is we are just humans are.

I guess I'm saying how much of this is algorithm's fault and how much of this is we are just humans are.

This is humans are bad.

This is humans are bad.

I think it's like.

I think it's like.

Humans are bad and dumb, and we have that taste and eventually the machines they they call us.

Humans are bad and dumb, and we have that taste and eventually the machines they they call us.

I think it's the humans had bad habits like we are. We want to be passive, we want to be lazy. We don't want to get too far out of our comfort zones, and these algorithmic platforms make it so easy to not do that, Like we don't have to go we don't have to see things we don't like, we don't have to listen to music that's unusual for us. So I think it like enables those innate tendencies, and that makes us more boring, like makes us more boring consumers. It makes culture kind of more generic overall. And I worry that we like can't get out of that laziness, Like we can't get out of that habit that we're in because of the platforms.

I think it's the humans had bad habits like we are. We want to be passive, we want to be lazy. We don't want to get too far out of our comfort zones, and these algorithmic platforms make it so easy to not do that, Like we don't have to go we don't have to see things we don't like, we don't have to listen to music that's unusual for us. So I think it like enables those innate tendencies, and that makes us more boring, like makes us more boring consumers. It makes culture kind of more generic overall. And I worry that we like can't get out of that laziness, Like we can't get out of that habit that we're in because of the platforms.

I think a lot about like, our taste is part of how we define who we are, how we interact with the world, right, And I think for me, the stuff that I have grown to fall in love with.

I think a lot about like, our taste is part of how we define who we are, how we interact with the world, right, And I think for me, the stuff that I have grown to fall in love with.

You find it before the Internet. I'm that old, But like I fell in love like the cool.

You find it before the Internet. I'm that old, But like I fell in love like the cool.

High school friend who recommends you liquid swords and you have a long commute to school, and so you play it and you sit with it and it becomes interesting and part of your identity. You find it like sort of have to meet a moment with a part of taste to find it in for it to actually stick to you. And what I worry about with algorithms, like we are we executing serendipity?

High school friend who recommends you liquid swords and you have a long commute to school, and so you play it and you sit with it and it becomes interesting and part of your identity. You find it like sort of have to meet a moment with a part of taste to find it in for it to actually stick to you. And what I worry about with algorithms, like we are we executing serendipity?

Yeah?

Yeah?

I think so in a way, because everything is presorted to appeal to us, like you are not seeing something that's totally outside of your fami of reference. So in that case, when your friend in high school recommends an album to you, there's this like passion to that, there's like a creativity to that. They really enjoy it, so they want to give it to you, and you're more likely to sit with it and give it some patience and try to understand what they meant by giving it to you, whereas when an algorithmic feed gives you something, there's no feeling there, like there's no creativity there's no enjoyment of that piece of culture. It's just that enough data suggested to a sorting machine that you would like this bit of stuff. I'm like, that is kind of depressing to me as someone who enjoys, like your data likes this.

I think so in a way, because everything is presorted to appeal to us, like you are not seeing something that's totally outside of your fami of reference. So in that case, when your friend in high school recommends an album to you, there's this like passion to that, there's like a creativity to that. They really enjoy it, so they want to give it to you, and you're more likely to sit with it and give it some patience and try to understand what they meant by giving it to you, whereas when an algorithmic feed gives you something, there's no feeling there, like there's no creativity there's no enjoyment of that piece of culture. It's just that enough data suggested to a sorting machine that you would like this bit of stuff. I'm like, that is kind of depressing to me as someone who enjoys, like your data likes this.

Have more.

Have more.

Yeah, yeah, stop stop at the beestro life, look at the beestrow lines.

Yeah, yeah, stop stop at the beestro life, look at the beestrow lines.

So you guys, you guys are both Brooklyn hipsters. Okay, you want some human to come and tell you what's good, But like, what about what about the situations when we go on Instagram or inert social media whatever, and then they recommend the something to buy, like a piece of clothing or or.

So you guys, you guys are both Brooklyn hipsters. Okay, you want some human to come and tell you what's good, But like, what about what about the situations when we go on Instagram or inert social media whatever, and then they recommend the something to buy, like a piece of clothing or or.

Let's not go into what I buy.

Let's not go into what I buy.

But like, uh yeah I was. I was running my head through all the stuff, like I said on TV, but uh, recommend something and you go actually like this, I actually do, like I hate that minute.

But like, uh yeah I was. I was running my head through all the stuff, like I said on TV, but uh, recommend something and you go actually like this, I actually do, like I hate that minute.

But the algorithm got me. Yeah, my wife, my algorithm, the algorithm got me.

But the algorithm got me. Yeah, my wife, my algorithm, the algorithm got me.

I bought this thing, you know, whether it's chewing gum that comes from a tree in grease or whatever.

I bought this thing, you know, whether it's chewing gum that comes from a tree in grease or whatever.

It was like but and I actually enjoy it.

It was like but and I actually enjoy it.

So like, you know, we were arguing against algorithms too, But how much of this is you know, beneficial.

So like, you know, we were arguing against algorithms too, But how much of this is you know, beneficial.

Yea.

Yea.

Not everybody has a cool high school friend. Most people have a shitty one that maybe should be replaced by Yeah.

Not everybody has a cool high school friend. Most people have a shitty one that maybe should be replaced by Yeah.

No.

No.

I feel like sometimes the algorithms judge us too well, like they know exactly what we're going to look at, they know what niche products we're going to want to buy, like the resin gum or like weird natural.

I feel like sometimes the algorithms judge us too well, like they know exactly what we're going to look at, they know what niche products we're going to want to buy, like the resin gum or like weird natural.

Well, are you going up too? Oh? Absolutely? Yeah.

Well, are you going up too? Oh? Absolutely? Yeah.

You know.

You know.

We all have those things that are like, oh you, the algorithm says that I must like this, therefore I like it, and so I think it just like guides us towards those things, and we feel an anxiety from being perceived too well. In a way, it's like, oh no, the machine knows me, And I think that inspires bad feelings as well. Like in the book I write about algorithmic anxiety, which was this academic term for basically the lack of power and agency you have in relation to the algorithm. You don't know how it works, you don't know why you're getting recommended resin gum from Greece. You just know that it's like you have been evaluated and this is directed at you.

We all have those things that are like, oh you, the algorithm says that I must like this, therefore I like it, and so I think it just like guides us towards those things, and we feel an anxiety from being perceived too well. In a way, it's like, oh no, the machine knows me, And I think that inspires bad feelings as well. Like in the book I write about algorithmic anxiety, which was this academic term for basically the lack of power and agency you have in relation to the algorithm. You don't know how it works, you don't know why you're getting recommended resin gum from Greece. You just know that it's like you have been evaluated and this is directed at you.

But now I know, But now I know that we actually might be friends because you both get the same.

But now I know, But now I know that we actually might be friends because you both get the same.

For the Greek gun thing. Yeah, you don't know what, Yeah, one of the cool kids. That's what I want to know.

For the Greek gun thing. Yeah, you don't know what, Yeah, one of the cool kids. That's what I want to know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So they say, if politics is downstream from culture and we all are moving into this flattened culture, what does this mean from thirty thousand foot view to what it does toward politics?

So they say, if politics is downstream from culture and we all are moving into this flattened culture, what does this mean from thirty thousand foot view to what it does toward politics?

Yeah, I think it affects everything, Like it affects culture, It affects geography, cities, also politics. And in culture, algorithms kind of funnel everyone toward a generic average where there's just this like style that works for everyone. But I think it's slightly different in politics, like it's sorting people into these very extreme groups that are very far from each other. So like in the US, maybe there's two big buckets, like you're either a Democrat or a Republican, and there is one way to be those things. There's no internal diversity. It's hard to have different opinions at the same time. It's just like you've been sorted into this bucket or this bucket, and then you've experienced a lot of pressure to stay in there.

Yeah, I think it affects everything, Like it affects culture, It affects geography, cities, also politics. And in culture, algorithms kind of funnel everyone toward a generic average where there's just this like style that works for everyone. But I think it's slightly different in politics, like it's sorting people into these very extreme groups that are very far from each other. So like in the US, maybe there's two big buckets, like you're either a Democrat or a Republican, and there is one way to be those things. There's no internal diversity. It's hard to have different opinions at the same time. It's just like you've been sorted into this bucket or this bucket, and then you've experienced a lot of pressure to stay in there.

So how come algorithms are flattening the culture when it's bad for us, meaning everyone seeing the same thing. But when it comes to politics, and maybe it would be better if we couldn't ruin this direction. It's making using the worst possible things.

So how come algorithms are flattening the culture when it's bad for us, meaning everyone seeing the same thing. But when it comes to politics, and maybe it would be better if we couldn't ruin this direction. It's making using the worst possible things.

I mean, it's totally true. It's like opposing forces in a way. I mean, I think culture is like a thing that many people experience collectively, Like it's a thing that we can all enjoy it together in a way sometimes whereas yeah, and in like a Tailor Swift context, everyone can like telor Swift.

I mean, it's totally true. It's like opposing forces in a way. I mean, I think culture is like a thing that many people experience collectively, Like it's a thing that we can all enjoy it together in a way sometimes whereas yeah, and in like a Tailor Swift context, everyone can like telor Swift.

If there's a tall we do, and we do we do to be clear.

If there's a tall we do, and we do we do to be clear.

So if we could find the tailor Swift for politics, that would be amazing. But I think something I think, I.

So if we could find the tailor Swift for politics, that would be amazing. But I think something I think, I.

Think it's there.

Think it's there.

We go, Okay, we've figured it out. The algorithmic solutions of politics is Tyler Swift. But yeah, I mean, maybe it's just that there can be no one solution to such opposing viewpoints.

We go, Okay, we've figured it out. The algorithmic solutions of politics is Tyler Swift. But yeah, I mean, maybe it's just that there can be no one solution to such opposing viewpoints.

Even computers can figure it out.

Even computers can figure it out.

Until we have the president that is the algorithm. Unfortunately, how old is that algorithm?

Until we have the president that is the algorithm. Unfortunately, how old is that algorithm?

Yes, well, none of them are that old.

Yes, well, none of them are that old.

This has only been a decade.

This has only been a decade.

You'll you know what, It sounds like a decent option that a lot of people could get behind a filter. World is available now.

You'll you know what, It sounds like a decent option that a lot of people could get behind a filter. World is available now.

Kyle Jacob explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching The Daily Show wherever you get your podcasts.

Kyle Jacob explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching The Daily Show wherever you get your podcasts.

Watch The Daily Show week nights at eleven.

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