Welcome to the Business of Tech, brought to you by Two Degrees, the podcast where we examine the tech related trends, challenges and opportunities shaping New Zealand's business landscape. I'm your host, Peter Griffin, and today we're diving into insights from the sixth annual Two Degrees Shaping Business Study, exploring what's top of mind for New Zealand businesses right now. This year's study lands at quite a pivotal moment. After years of uncertainty, business optimism has jumped to its highest level since the research began. More KEII companies are thriving rather than just surviving, according to the research, which surveyed over five hundred business decision makers, and over half of businesses anticipate revenue growth in the coming year. There's a clear focus on productivity, innovation and harnessing digital tools like AI to get ahead, but it's not all smooth sailing. Rising costs, sluggish customer demand and the ongoing pressure to upskill and digitize remain front of mind. The big question how in New Zealand's business leaders planning to turn this optimism into real world results and what support do they need to get there to explore what's top of mind for New Zealand businesses right now. I'm joined this episode by Mark Callender and Steve Yerkovich. Mark is the CEO of Two Degrees, the driving force behind the study, and a champion for business connectivity and innovation. Steve is the chief executive of Kiwibank, with a front row seat to the financial realities and ambitions of Kiwi businesses nationwide. We'll explore what's fueling this newfound optimism, how businesses are tackling cost pressures, the evolving role of AI and digital skills, the new investment boost, tax incentive, and what the government and business community can do to ensure this momentum isn't lost. Whether you're a startup founder, a seasoned CEO, or just passionate about the future of New Zealand inc. This episode is your essential guide to the business mode of twenty twenty five and the strategies shaping are collective future. So let's get started. Mike and Steve. Welcome to the Business of Tech. How are you doing?

Welcome to the Business of Tech, brought to you by Two Degrees, the podcast where we examine the tech related trends, challenges and opportunities shaping New Zealand's business landscape. I'm your host, Peter Griffin, and today we're diving into insights from the sixth annual Two Degrees Shaping Business Study, exploring what's top of mind for New Zealand businesses right now. This year's study lands at quite a pivotal moment. After years of uncertainty, business optimism has jumped to its highest level since the research began. More KEII companies are thriving rather than just surviving, according to the research, which surveyed over five hundred business decision makers, and over half of businesses anticipate revenue growth in the coming year. There's a clear focus on productivity, innovation and harnessing digital tools like AI to get ahead, but it's not all smooth sailing. Rising costs, sluggish customer demand and the ongoing pressure to upskill and digitize remain front of mind. The big question how in New Zealand's business leaders planning to turn this optimism into real world results and what support do they need to get there to explore what's top of mind for New Zealand businesses right now. I'm joined this episode by Mark Callender and Steve Yerkovich. Mark is the CEO of Two Degrees, the driving force behind the study, and a champion for business connectivity and innovation. Steve is the chief executive of Kiwibank, with a front row seat to the financial realities and ambitions of Kiwi businesses nationwide. We'll explore what's fueling this newfound optimism, how businesses are tackling cost pressures, the evolving role of AI and digital skills, the new investment boost, tax incentive, and what the government and business community can do to ensure this momentum isn't lost. Whether you're a startup founder, a seasoned CEO, or just passionate about the future of New Zealand inc. This episode is your essential guide to the business mode of twenty twenty five and the strategies shaping are collective future. So let's get started. Mike and Steve. Welcome to the Business of Tech. How are you doing?

Really good? Thanks Bena, good, Thanks Penner.

Really good? Thanks Bena, good, Thanks Penner.

Yeah, so we just got off stage really good event here at endzed me the launch off the Shaping Business Study, which is in its sixth iteration. Now, this is around five hundred business decision makers that you have been surveying every year. So that's over three and a half thousand people that you've surveyed and some pretty high times as well. It really kicked off around the near twenty twenty COVID times.

Yeah, so we just got off stage really good event here at endzed me the launch off the Shaping Business Study, which is in its sixth iteration. Now, this is around five hundred business decision makers that you have been surveying every year. So that's over three and a half thousand people that you've surveyed and some pretty high times as well. It really kicked off around the near twenty twenty COVID times.

So was it just before was it the first one? Yeah, it was just before.

So was it just before was it the first one? Yeah, it was just before.

And the original intent behind the study originally was to kind of understand how business were surviving post COVID, So that was the original nucleus behind it, and then obviously we've since continued to invest in it to develop a longitudal study which has been great.

And the original intent behind the study originally was to kind of understand how business were surviving post COVID, So that was the original nucleus behind it, and then obviously we've since continued to invest in it to develop a longitudal study which has been great.

Yeah, And the headline really is that increase in optimism that you've identified, which is the strongest since the study began. So there's a sense that we're pulling out of some pretty dark times.

Yeah, And the headline really is that increase in optimism that you've identified, which is the strongest since the study began. So there's a sense that we're pulling out of some pretty dark times.

We've turned a corner.

We've turned a corner.

There are lots of challenges identified, but maybe let's start with some of the headline stuff that sort of underpends that optimism. There's more more growth anticipated, there's more appetite for investment, particularly in technology and AI.

There are lots of challenges identified, but maybe let's start with some of the headline stuff that sort of underpends that optimism. There's more more growth anticipated, there's more appetite for investment, particularly in technology and AI.

Yeah, so the optimism, and again some people have been surprised at the optimism.

Yeah, so the optimism, and again some people have been surprised at the optimism.

I'm personally not.

I'm personally not.

The terminology you know, survived to twenty five was coined at the end of last year. You know, we're now midway through twenty twenty five and I think, you know, things are looking up. You know, as the survey outlined, forty five percent of businesses are feeling more optimistic than.

The terminology you know, survived to twenty five was coined at the end of last year. You know, we're now midway through twenty twenty five and I think, you know, things are looking up. You know, as the survey outlined, forty five percent of businesses are feeling more optimistic than.

They did last year.

They did last year.

Again, last year is a pretty tough year, so it's no surprise to see that bounce. I think what's more encouraging is a lot of those businesses deem themselves to be more productive. Many of them have launched a new product or service in the last twelve months, and again off the back of that, you know, the intention around investing in business development, sales and marketing is also increasing. So some really positive indicators in terms of the way businesses are feeling, and I think it's a great outlook to moving from surviving to thriving towards the second half of this year.

Again, last year is a pretty tough year, so it's no surprise to see that bounce. I think what's more encouraging is a lot of those businesses deem themselves to be more productive. Many of them have launched a new product or service in the last twelve months, and again off the back of that, you know, the intention around investing in business development, sales and marketing is also increasing. So some really positive indicators in terms of the way businesses are feeling, and I think it's a great outlook to moving from surviving to thriving towards the second half of this year.

Has to reflected in your own business two degrees, have you been thriving in the last year launching new products and services as well?

Has to reflected in your own business two degrees, have you been thriving in the last year launching new products and services as well?

Yeah, so we've been really busy. We're not immune to some of the challenges like lower household spending. The backdrop of that is we also see incredible growth across you know, certain astics of our business. So as large enterprise and government sectors have looked to save money, you know, as a value provider, that's where two Degrees steps up really strongly. They see us as an opportunity to use our productivity tools such as flex or to save the money through the telecommunication spend to reinvest in that in other areas of the business such as AI and other growth initiatives. So we are thriving again. We've got a great brand, we've got really good momentum in the market. We're three years into the merge now, which is coming to an end. So we're in a really strong position, which is great for two Degrees.

Yeah, so we've been really busy. We're not immune to some of the challenges like lower household spending. The backdrop of that is we also see incredible growth across you know, certain astics of our business. So as large enterprise and government sectors have looked to save money, you know, as a value provider, that's where two Degrees steps up really strongly. They see us as an opportunity to use our productivity tools such as flex or to save the money through the telecommunication spend to reinvest in that in other areas of the business such as AI and other growth initiatives. So we are thriving again. We've got a great brand, we've got really good momentum in the market. We're three years into the merge now, which is coming to an end. So we're in a really strong position, which is great for two Degrees.

In the wider team and Steve at Kiwibank, there's a lot of talk, for instance, in the primary sector we just had field days. It was an optimistic tone there. Farmers are out looking at investing again and plant we've got investment boost that was announced in the budget. Interest in your perspective, what you're seeing from a banking perspective, appetite for taking out loans to invest in business what are you seeing.

In the wider team and Steve at Kiwibank, there's a lot of talk, for instance, in the primary sector we just had field days. It was an optimistic tone there. Farmers are out looking at investing again and plant we've got investment boost that was announced in the budget. Interest in your perspective, what you're seeing from a banking perspective, appetite for taking out loans to invest in business what are you seeing.

Well, I think, you know, the Agrey market's in a pretty good spot. You know, you've got a very very strong milk price you've got you know, and we're a small, open economy, so when we're moving stuff to other countries, you know, we naturally benefit. Interest costs for their borrowing will be down pretty significantly, you know, two three hundred basis points or two or three percent for most customers. So that's you know, that's good news for them.

Well, I think, you know, the Agrey market's in a pretty good spot. You know, you've got a very very strong milk price you've got you know, and we're a small, open economy, so when we're moving stuff to other countries, you know, we naturally benefit. Interest costs for their borrowing will be down pretty significantly, you know, two three hundred basis points or two or three percent for most customers. So that's you know, that's good news for them.

What I think.

What I think.

The Boost scheme that helps people is when they're on the cusp of deciding whether they're going to invest or not, it gives them a little bit more of an incentive knowing that the you know, the payback, that extra twenty percent deductibility might be the difference between doing it or not. You know, they'll have a business plan, they'll be thinking about what they want to do. That might be the thing that gets it across the line. And I think when confidence has been pretty fragile for a while, those are the sorts of things that sort of add up to people wanting to take the initiative. We've been in a bit of a unique position because even though we're the fifth biggest player in a market that's obviously dominated by offshore own banks, we've been the fastest growing and so a sense of enthusiasm and getting out and talking to customers about you know, what do you want to do, what do you want to achieve? Is pretty infectious actually, and I think it's not a complicated strategy by any sense, but a bit of enthusiasm from the bank are around what's your goals, what's your dreams? Where do you see the opportunities? How might you think about automation, how might you think about investment, how might you think about productivity? And those sorts of things and investing in that. The good thing I think about the technology set we're seeing at the moment is that the payback is much shorter term and you can sort of see the jobs that could be maybe tackled by than technology. You know, if you think about health and safety with robotics and automation and logistics, much safer, don't make mistakes, don't have a bad day on the showroom floor or in the warehouse. So those sorts of things, you know, obviously offer great payback if you're willing to make the investment up front, and it's what it's really aimed at, isn't it. It's the advanced technology that's really going to increase productivity for your business or your competitiveness. I mean, it's it's applicable to uts and other things as well. But what advice are you able to give to your customers about the types of technologies they should be investing in you as a as a sort of driver off innovation in this country. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a few things that strike me. I mean there are some absolute poster sholds, whether you know that be Rocket Lab or one of our own.

The Boost scheme that helps people is when they're on the cusp of deciding whether they're going to invest or not, it gives them a little bit more of an incentive knowing that the you know, the payback, that extra twenty percent deductibility might be the difference between doing it or not. You know, they'll have a business plan, they'll be thinking about what they want to do. That might be the thing that gets it across the line. And I think when confidence has been pretty fragile for a while, those are the sorts of things that sort of add up to people wanting to take the initiative. We've been in a bit of a unique position because even though we're the fifth biggest player in a market that's obviously dominated by offshore own banks, we've been the fastest growing and so a sense of enthusiasm and getting out and talking to customers about you know, what do you want to do, what do you want to achieve? Is pretty infectious actually, and I think it's not a complicated strategy by any sense, but a bit of enthusiasm from the bank are around what's your goals, what's your dreams? Where do you see the opportunities? How might you think about automation, how might you think about investment, how might you think about productivity? And those sorts of things and investing in that. The good thing I think about the technology set we're seeing at the moment is that the payback is much shorter term and you can sort of see the jobs that could be maybe tackled by than technology. You know, if you think about health and safety with robotics and automation and logistics, much safer, don't make mistakes, don't have a bad day on the showroom floor or in the warehouse. So those sorts of things, you know, obviously offer great payback if you're willing to make the investment up front, and it's what it's really aimed at, isn't it. It's the advanced technology that's really going to increase productivity for your business or your competitiveness. I mean, it's it's applicable to uts and other things as well. But what advice are you able to give to your customers about the types of technologies they should be investing in you as a as a sort of driver off innovation in this country. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a few things that strike me. I mean there are some absolute poster sholds, whether you know that be Rocket Lab or one of our own.

Customers down Aerospace.

Customers down Aerospace.

You know, you know, driving affordability for space is you know, huge opportunity. But people can be a bit overwhelmed by that fact. They sort of think, oh, my business is not like that, you know, it's not heavy on tech. But actually almost every business has got an opportunity to move things forward. And so, you know, when I think about it, the number one thing I'd say is be curious and just start getting involved in using it. Kind of get over yourself if you're worried about, oh, I'm not a tech person, I'm not a digital person. You know, what we're seeing here is the ability for techechnology to do jobs that are you know, repeatable processes. If you've got decent documentation, can see the tech really tackling those jobs. And so there is a full spectrum of jobs that can be tackled by the tech. But their curiosity and wanting to get involved and really giving it a crack to understand it, or buddying up with another business that might be a little bit further ahead, or leaning on a provider like two Degrees to help you get an understanding of what's available and learning by doing.

You know, you know, driving affordability for space is you know, huge opportunity. But people can be a bit overwhelmed by that fact. They sort of think, oh, my business is not like that, you know, it's not heavy on tech. But actually almost every business has got an opportunity to move things forward. And so, you know, when I think about it, the number one thing I'd say is be curious and just start getting involved in using it. Kind of get over yourself if you're worried about, oh, I'm not a tech person, I'm not a digital person. You know, what we're seeing here is the ability for techechnology to do jobs that are you know, repeatable processes. If you've got decent documentation, can see the tech really tackling those jobs. And so there is a full spectrum of jobs that can be tackled by the tech. But their curiosity and wanting to get involved and really giving it a crack to understand it, or buddying up with another business that might be a little bit further ahead, or leaning on a provider like two Degrees to help you get an understanding of what's available and learning by doing.

Is the number one thing I'd say.

Is the number one thing I'd say.

Yeah, that was an interesting thing Mike in the study around digital skills and a sense of confidence there that businesses feel are quite well prepared, they have the skills needed for the transformation that the business needs to go through. You know, talk to a lot of businesses, education providers, government don't get that sense of confidence there, but when they assess themselves they go, yep, we've got it covered. What's your sense.

Yeah, that was an interesting thing Mike in the study around digital skills and a sense of confidence there that businesses feel are quite well prepared, they have the skills needed for the transformation that the business needs to go through. You know, talk to a lot of businesses, education providers, government don't get that sense of confidence there, but when they assess themselves they go, yep, we've got it covered. What's your sense.

Yeah, So again, I think the really interesting thing with AI is is it actually can be used by the man on the street a little and on the street the fear factor shouldn't be there. It's such an easy tool to pick up trial error and play with. So from a technology inspective, AI, you know, we just encourage everyone to be curious with a technology. I mentioned before that you know, small business in particular. You know, you used to the analogies of the small business owner being the IT manager and the HR manager. You know, AI is a phenomenal tool and a very cost effective tool for taking that burden away from a small business. The really interesting thing that I think came out of the Shaping Business study that we did this year was the focus on increased spend on AI as a productivity tool as opposed to employing people. Yeah, all right, so that is a big trend. It's been talked about for a long time. Again, we don't look at AI as a people replacement. We look at it as a business enhancement. You get natural productivity through that. But it's really interesting to see that that, you know, that flavor is now coming through the study.

Yeah, So again, I think the really interesting thing with AI is is it actually can be used by the man on the street a little and on the street the fear factor shouldn't be there. It's such an easy tool to pick up trial error and play with. So from a technology inspective, AI, you know, we just encourage everyone to be curious with a technology. I mentioned before that you know, small business in particular. You know, you used to the analogies of the small business owner being the IT manager and the HR manager. You know, AI is a phenomenal tool and a very cost effective tool for taking that burden away from a small business. The really interesting thing that I think came out of the Shaping Business study that we did this year was the focus on increased spend on AI as a productivity tool as opposed to employing people. Yeah, all right, so that is a big trend. It's been talked about for a long time. Again, we don't look at AI as a people replacement. We look at it as a business enhancement. You get natural productivity through that. But it's really interesting to see that that, you know, that flavor is now coming through the study.

It's so interesting because Tells Truth has just said they expect to have a smaller workforce in five years to im BT whatever it's called now similar sort of things. So we're starting the narrative starting to shift from it sort of it will work in tandem with you to Actually there will be a reduction in overall headcount in some organizations, but the people who remain will have much more fulfilling jobs.

It's so interesting because Tells Truth has just said they expect to have a smaller workforce in five years to im BT whatever it's called now similar sort of things. So we're starting the narrative starting to shift from it sort of it will work in tandem with you to Actually there will be a reduction in overall headcount in some organizations, but the people who remain will have much more fulfilling jobs.

And it's the.

And it's the.

Type of roles that will be confected, so it should enhance a lot of roles. It should enhance a lot of businesses. There will naturally be some roles that won't be around in five years time as a result of it. We talked a lot around the education with AI. So if you want an organization to embrace embrace AI to be more highly productive and more innovative, you can't start with we're going to take head count out. So you've got to get the settings and the incentives right to embrace new technology. And again that's the journey we're on at two degrees. And we looked on embedded and kind of all of our tools and all of our behaviors across the businesses as much around behavior and education changes. We put the technology into our call centers, did all the call translation and did all the summary note codes, but at the end of the call, everyone was reviewing all.

Type of roles that will be confected, so it should enhance a lot of roles. It should enhance a lot of businesses. There will naturally be some roles that won't be around in five years time as a result of it. We talked a lot around the education with AI. So if you want an organization to embrace embrace AI to be more highly productive and more innovative, you can't start with we're going to take head count out. So you've got to get the settings and the incentives right to embrace new technology. And again that's the journey we're on at two degrees. And we looked on embedded and kind of all of our tools and all of our behaviors across the businesses as much around behavior and education changes. We put the technology into our call centers, did all the call translation and did all the summary note codes, but at the end of the call, everyone was reviewing all.

The note codes.

The note codes.

So you have to create the right behaviors and the cultural settings to get the gains out of any technology.

So you have to create the right behaviors and the cultural settings to get the gains out of any technology.

You've both been in North America recently looking at the rise of agentic AI. So this is moving from the likes of Chat GP, This is moving from the likes of Chat, GPT and copilot, which is actually according to study, thirty two percent of businesses are using from seventeen percent in the previous year. So that's good. This stuff is accessible, it's relatively cheap. But the next wave is so called agentic AI. Steve took us through that transition from these sort of information based generative systems through AI that actually can make decisions on your behalf.

You've both been in North America recently looking at the rise of agentic AI. So this is moving from the likes of Chat GP, This is moving from the likes of Chat, GPT and copilot, which is actually according to study, thirty two percent of businesses are using from seventeen percent in the previous year. So that's good. This stuff is accessible, it's relatively cheap. But the next wave is so called agentic AI. Steve took us through that transition from these sort of information based generative systems through AI that actually can make decisions on your behalf.

Yeah, I mean what really struck me was, as I mentioned earlier when we were having the breakfast, was what really struck me was the speed. So four or five months ago, I was with a group of chief excs X through our partner Visa, and they were showcasing you know what they were basically calling, you know, the the dawn of agentic commerce. And to be fair, that was the first time i'd heard the term, not the first time i'd heard about agents, not the first time i'd heard about you know, large language models or large research models doing jobs. But roll that forward five months and arriving in San Francisco. You know, billboards talking about the lowest cost, low code agents to help your business thrive. And so one thing I'd say, you know, I'm not an advertising expert, but when people start putting up billboards above the line to showcase what they've got to sell, that's moved really fast. And that was the real thing that struck me that it had gone from sort of interesting idea, let to showcase it to actually massive companies like Salesforce, you know, talking to them, you know, some of the largest and most valuable market cap companies in the world, saying you know, here are the jobs that are being tackled by these agents, and mark touched on in the breakfast as well as you know, it's very likely you'll see a suite of agents because the cost of the agents doing the work can be optimized by very specialist agents doing a particular part of the job. So you can see, just like you're do in your own workplace. Now, you know, you might need three or four people that are experts in areas to come back to give you the answer you're after, because, like most decent problems, not one person can solve them. So seeing the agents being able to gather the policy, seeing them be able to understand the trend, seeing them be able to action what the plan looks like, you know, document it, follow it up, explore things that might not be documented as it sort of blows your mind when you think about the number of things across your organization where people are grinding away to try and find the latest version of something or produce something, or the hours that go into producing PowerPoint decks and those sorts of things where that time could be spent on much more interesting, more complex problems than producing that stuff. So that feels like a really big shift to me.

Yeah, I mean what really struck me was, as I mentioned earlier when we were having the breakfast, was what really struck me was the speed. So four or five months ago, I was with a group of chief excs X through our partner Visa, and they were showcasing you know what they were basically calling, you know, the the dawn of agentic commerce. And to be fair, that was the first time i'd heard the term, not the first time i'd heard about agents, not the first time i'd heard about you know, large language models or large research models doing jobs. But roll that forward five months and arriving in San Francisco. You know, billboards talking about the lowest cost, low code agents to help your business thrive. And so one thing I'd say, you know, I'm not an advertising expert, but when people start putting up billboards above the line to showcase what they've got to sell, that's moved really fast. And that was the real thing that struck me that it had gone from sort of interesting idea, let to showcase it to actually massive companies like Salesforce, you know, talking to them, you know, some of the largest and most valuable market cap companies in the world, saying you know, here are the jobs that are being tackled by these agents, and mark touched on in the breakfast as well as you know, it's very likely you'll see a suite of agents because the cost of the agents doing the work can be optimized by very specialist agents doing a particular part of the job. So you can see, just like you're do in your own workplace. Now, you know, you might need three or four people that are experts in areas to come back to give you the answer you're after, because, like most decent problems, not one person can solve them. So seeing the agents being able to gather the policy, seeing them be able to understand the trend, seeing them be able to action what the plan looks like, you know, document it, follow it up, explore things that might not be documented as it sort of blows your mind when you think about the number of things across your organization where people are grinding away to try and find the latest version of something or produce something, or the hours that go into producing PowerPoint decks and those sorts of things where that time could be spent on much more interesting, more complex problems than producing that stuff. So that feels like a really big shift to me.

Yeah, at QUI Bankers, is that where you are sort of at with your own use of AI at the moment that real productivity play or are you starting to experiment with AI for financial services for dispensing financial advice for instance?

Yeah, at QUI Bankers, is that where you are sort of at with your own use of AI at the moment that real productivity play or are you starting to experiment with AI for financial services for dispensing financial advice for instance?

Here, No, we're not in the robo advice, that's what it's normally described at. What we are at is we've seen huge gains and we've got an international award much like Mark talked on in the call center, which is in our business banking center. So if you think about tens of thousands of small business owners that have a lot of stuff that they need doing, don't have a lot of spare time bringing into our contact center to talk to our business bankers about the job that they need fixing. The technology platform we use is able to understand what the question is that people are really trying to solve, because often customers will explain an issue but it's not really the problem they're trying to solve. But being able to understand what that sentiment is and route them to the right bank or at the right time saved us heaps and heaps of time. And I think about this technology being grateful team and grateful customer. So the bank has got the right call at the right time and less agitated when they had to answer the question. They've also got better information and able to push back and give better answers. So we're really at the early edge of utilizing the vendor AI. So our lending platform is one of the world leading lending platforms that will make a credit decision for you. So it's a job that's been done in the bank, but if you think about an agent doing that job, you know they always get it right. They don't have a bad day at the office. They're not feeling tired or grumpy. They're always doing that job. And so if you can tune that, you can get big benefits. But we are not out doing experiments or proof of concepts. We are much more about a pathway to production. How do we get that to help our customers and help our team. So we're absolutely not at the cutting edge of that, but I've never been more convinced that we need to go faster.

Here, No, we're not in the robo advice, that's what it's normally described at. What we are at is we've seen huge gains and we've got an international award much like Mark talked on in the call center, which is in our business banking center. So if you think about tens of thousands of small business owners that have a lot of stuff that they need doing, don't have a lot of spare time bringing into our contact center to talk to our business bankers about the job that they need fixing. The technology platform we use is able to understand what the question is that people are really trying to solve, because often customers will explain an issue but it's not really the problem they're trying to solve. But being able to understand what that sentiment is and route them to the right bank or at the right time saved us heaps and heaps of time. And I think about this technology being grateful team and grateful customer. So the bank has got the right call at the right time and less agitated when they had to answer the question. They've also got better information and able to push back and give better answers. So we're really at the early edge of utilizing the vendor AI. So our lending platform is one of the world leading lending platforms that will make a credit decision for you. So it's a job that's been done in the bank, but if you think about an agent doing that job, you know they always get it right. They don't have a bad day at the office. They're not feeling tired or grumpy. They're always doing that job. And so if you can tune that, you can get big benefits. But we are not out doing experiments or proof of concepts. We are much more about a pathway to production. How do we get that to help our customers and help our team. So we're absolutely not at the cutting edge of that, but I've never been more convinced that we need to go faster.

Yeah, and you're a big proponent of open banking, and I see great thing you've done. You've waived the fees on API interactions that third parties will have to share customer data. So I guess some of those companies will be adopting AI. I guess that's innovative, but also some risk involved in that. You're not taking the risk with your own customers, but their data might be going to startups that are a bit more aggressive on AI.

Yeah, and you're a big proponent of open banking, and I see great thing you've done. You've waived the fees on API interactions that third parties will have to share customer data. So I guess some of those companies will be adopting AI. I guess that's innovative, but also some risk involved in that. You're not taking the risk with your own customers, but their data might be going to startups that are a bit more aggressive on AI.

Yeah, I mean that's right, But I mean I think what's the counterfactual to that is, Oh, we should charge people for their own data. We should prevent the competition, we should pretend that we've got all the answers, and you know, you look around the financial services world, or the telco world or whatever it's. You know, there's no one company that fixes all problems, and I think by opening it up and embracing it, it'll make us better. You know, we'll have to run faster and there'll be a few times where we're not up to speed, and that's the market. We should learn from that, we should respond to it, and we should be better. And you know, we want to grow. So if we want to grow and you're a small bank at the last stop before Antarctica, then you've got a partner with people and you can't do it all yourself.

Yeah, I mean that's right, But I mean I think what's the counterfactual to that is, Oh, we should charge people for their own data. We should prevent the competition, we should pretend that we've got all the answers, and you know, you look around the financial services world, or the telco world or whatever it's. You know, there's no one company that fixes all problems, and I think by opening it up and embracing it, it'll make us better. You know, we'll have to run faster and there'll be a few times where we're not up to speed, and that's the market. We should learn from that, we should respond to it, and we should be better. And you know, we want to grow. So if we want to grow and you're a small bank at the last stop before Antarctica, then you've got a partner with people and you can't do it all yourself.

Yeah, Mike, it's obviously not all about AI. That was actually sort of a little bit down the list of priorities in terms of when it comes to growth in what businesses are interested in investing in. Websites are actually almost top of the list, and sales and marketing, So it's those sort of traditional things that when businesses are looking towards growing again and bringing in more revenue, it's those basic things that they're looking to invest in.

Yeah, Mike, it's obviously not all about AI. That was actually sort of a little bit down the list of priorities in terms of when it comes to growth in what businesses are interested in investing in. Websites are actually almost top of the list, and sales and marketing, So it's those sort of traditional things that when businesses are looking towards growing again and bringing in more revenue, it's those basic things that they're looking to invest in.

Now, Yeah, one hundred percent.

Now, Yeah, one hundred percent.

Again, it'll be a reflection again of the small business and meeting business that we've captured in the survey. But the study certainly shows if you come back to my earlier point around you know, more than half of the business of launching your product or service in the last twelve months. Launching the product or service is one thing, but how do you get customer eyeballs on it? How do you sell it? How do you make money? And that's where I think you've seen the back to basics when it comes to traditional sales and marketing, social media, website development and getting it out there. I would add that to Steve's point, the AIS and all of those ecosystems as well. So even a small business creating a website.

Again, it'll be a reflection again of the small business and meeting business that we've captured in the survey. But the study certainly shows if you come back to my earlier point around you know, more than half of the business of launching your product or service in the last twelve months. Launching the product or service is one thing, but how do you get customer eyeballs on it? How do you sell it? How do you make money? And that's where I think you've seen the back to basics when it comes to traditional sales and marketing, social media, website development and getting it out there. I would add that to Steve's point, the AIS and all of those ecosystems as well. So even a small business creating a website.

Agentic it just does it in seconds.

Agentic it just does it in seconds.

Yeah, and I use you know, I've talked about a AI a lot. I've moved on from you know, twelve months ago. AI been one of the tools you have to run and use in your business to being the tool that is the center of your business. Steve Grade a great example of the you know, the HR person. I've seen again a demo of an AGENTIC HR onboarding person. So when a new employee starts, you know, you've got the natural things like, you know, the policies, the contracts, et cetera. But the agenda AI agent can create an it help just stick it for your laptop, for your mobile phone, organize the meetings, send to your induction materials. So again that's enhancing the onboarding experience for new employees and younger talent. You want to create in a world that they live in. So again it's getting that balance right between you know, doing the basics well from a technology perspective, but also embracing the future of AI.

Yeah, and I use you know, I've talked about a AI a lot. I've moved on from you know, twelve months ago. AI been one of the tools you have to run and use in your business to being the tool that is the center of your business. Steve Grade a great example of the you know, the HR person. I've seen again a demo of an AGENTIC HR onboarding person. So when a new employee starts, you know, you've got the natural things like, you know, the policies, the contracts, et cetera. But the agenda AI agent can create an it help just stick it for your laptop, for your mobile phone, organize the meetings, send to your induction materials. So again that's enhancing the onboarding experience for new employees and younger talent. You want to create in a world that they live in. So again it's getting that balance right between you know, doing the basics well from a technology perspective, but also embracing the future of AI.

And I think as.

And I think as.

Leaders of businesses, it's it's very early in the hype curve, but you need that vision and you need that leadership that Steve talks about to make sure that our business is going to thrive in the long term. I think the biggest threat to our businesses is a pure AI startup. Yeah, we're embracing it and building it into legacy. You got to think around what does what does the new bank look like or the new telco look like? In five years it'll be an AI bank called Yeah. So you can't ignore the technology.

Leaders of businesses, it's it's very early in the hype curve, but you need that vision and you need that leadership that Steve talks about to make sure that our business is going to thrive in the long term. I think the biggest threat to our businesses is a pure AI startup. Yeah, we're embracing it and building it into legacy. You got to think around what does what does the new bank look like or the new telco look like? In five years it'll be an AI bank called Yeah. So you can't ignore the technology.

And that's why you see the billboards and San Francisco all about AI because they're genuinely building AI centric organizations over there. We're bolting it on here at the moment, but that's the transition we all have to go on to be competitive as well.

And that's why you see the billboards and San Francisco all about AI because they're genuinely building AI centric organizations over there. We're bolting it on here at the moment, but that's the transition we all have to go on to be competitive as well.

And if you think around talent and getting the people we want in our organizations, if you don't have the tools, the platforms, the mindset, I'll go to an AI startup because that's the language they used to in the world they want to live in.

And if you think around talent and getting the people we want in our organizations, if you don't have the tools, the platforms, the mindset, I'll go to an AI startup because that's the language they used to in the world they want to live in.

Yeah, just on the talent. That is one of the barriers to growth, and that is finding really highly skilled people. Although when it comes to digital skills, had a lot of the self reporting from these businesses is that they feel they've got it covered. What's your sort of stands, both in your organizations hiring people. What's it like out there at the moment getting the right sort of talent, particularly in those highly skilled tech related areas.

Yeah, just on the talent. That is one of the barriers to growth, and that is finding really highly skilled people. Although when it comes to digital skills, had a lot of the self reporting from these businesses is that they feel they've got it covered. What's your sort of stands, both in your organizations hiring people. What's it like out there at the moment getting the right sort of talent, particularly in those highly skilled tech related areas.

I would actually say it's improved a lot.

I would actually say it's improved a lot.

Again, if you look back twelve to eighteen months, the employment market was very tough. You had challenge is finding the right talent, the cost of that talent and everything in between. Now we have a I think we have a market where again if you position your business properly, and again it comes back to if you're wanting to get great young technology and talent in your business. They want to hear an AI story when they hear me talk about my business and my team talk about their business. So again i would describe the market is easier to get the talent we need, but that doesn't remove the onus on us to make sure that the environment's right when they get there.

Again, if you look back twelve to eighteen months, the employment market was very tough. You had challenge is finding the right talent, the cost of that talent and everything in between. Now we have a I think we have a market where again if you position your business properly, and again it comes back to if you're wanting to get great young technology and talent in your business. They want to hear an AI story when they hear me talk about my business and my team talk about their business. So again i would describe the market is easier to get the talent we need, but that doesn't remove the onus on us to make sure that the environment's right when they get there.

Yeah, i'd absolutely echo marx comments. A couple of things I'd add. One is, for most existing businesses, you've still got that challenge that Mark talked upon, which is the transition from the heritage systems to the new. So you still need an engaged team that's willing to work on the current state or the historical state and into the new state. So holding on to decent talent that's helping us get off that old stack and onto a new capability is quite a conundrum, right, because you really value those people when you need them, but you also got to understand that they want to be future ready as well. They don't want to be the last one working on the old system when everyone else has moved to the new system, so you know there's rotation and making sure that you're insenting people in the right way. I'm also super encouraged by the idea that people will come into those technology jobs without having to have had to do five ten years of coding. You know, you will see the technology being able to create huge amounts of the code. So people are creative people that are got a vision for what could be achieved, but maybe not the traditional education. I think the technology can be a real game changer for them. And we talk a lot about the digital divide, but I'm very hopeful that, you know, particularly when you think about the multicultural cities in New Zealand like Auckland, that the creativity, the flair, you know, that will be a big step up and when using these tools rather than having a traditional education that's been advantaged by where you've been or your access and those sorts of things. So I'm actually quite positive that there can be a leap frog for people to jump into roles.

Yeah, i'd absolutely echo marx comments. A couple of things I'd add. One is, for most existing businesses, you've still got that challenge that Mark talked upon, which is the transition from the heritage systems to the new. So you still need an engaged team that's willing to work on the current state or the historical state and into the new state. So holding on to decent talent that's helping us get off that old stack and onto a new capability is quite a conundrum, right, because you really value those people when you need them, but you also got to understand that they want to be future ready as well. They don't want to be the last one working on the old system when everyone else has moved to the new system, so you know there's rotation and making sure that you're insenting people in the right way. I'm also super encouraged by the idea that people will come into those technology jobs without having to have had to do five ten years of coding. You know, you will see the technology being able to create huge amounts of the code. So people are creative people that are got a vision for what could be achieved, but maybe not the traditional education. I think the technology can be a real game changer for them. And we talk a lot about the digital divide, but I'm very hopeful that, you know, particularly when you think about the multicultural cities in New Zealand like Auckland, that the creativity, the flair, you know, that will be a big step up and when using these tools rather than having a traditional education that's been advantaged by where you've been or your access and those sorts of things. So I'm actually quite positive that there can be a leap frog for people to jump into roles.

You know.

You know.

And if you think about a small business owner that you know would have been overwhelmed by the idea of organizing an agency to create a website and you know, all of the kind of jargon that came with it and all of the mystique to being able to create something where you know, you're trying to explain what your business does in your community and why you think should be people with you business owners will be good at that. The rest of it will the technology or sort of mask that complexity of hope in the future.

And if you think about a small business owner that you know would have been overwhelmed by the idea of organizing an agency to create a website and you know, all of the kind of jargon that came with it and all of the mystique to being able to create something where you know, you're trying to explain what your business does in your community and why you think should be people with you business owners will be good at that. The rest of it will the technology or sort of mask that complexity of hope in the future.

Yeah, Like in the wake of COVID, they did Digital Boost, which was a whole scheme to try and very quickly get a lot of small businesses online and using Shopify and things like that to at least keep trading through lockdowns. That scheme has wound down, but you almost don't need it anymore because in the agentic world. I used replet recently to rebuild my entire website and poured overall the content content.

Yeah, Like in the wake of COVID, they did Digital Boost, which was a whole scheme to try and very quickly get a lot of small businesses online and using Shopify and things like that to at least keep trading through lockdowns. That scheme has wound down, but you almost don't need it anymore because in the agentic world. I used replet recently to rebuild my entire website and poured overall the content content.

You know.

You know.

It costs about the same or a little bit more than a WordPress website, but it was done literally.

It costs about the same or a little bit more than a WordPress website, but it was done literally.

In a day. Yeah.

In a day. Yeah.

I mean that's a huge advantage, right. That allows you to work on the getting interesting stories, to build rapport with people, to understand the trends, not be their grinding to get a new website up, which is a necessary evil but not something you probably feel like is a massive differentiator for you. And I think that's why when Mark was talking about people revisiting the sort of foundations like a decent website like you know, moving from conversation to close, all those sorts of things. I think as people see what better looks like, hopefully they're chuning themselves and say, you know, I have to do better than this because you know, all things being equal, am I paying a much enough for search optimization?

I mean that's a huge advantage, right. That allows you to work on the getting interesting stories, to build rapport with people, to understand the trends, not be their grinding to get a new website up, which is a necessary evil but not something you probably feel like is a massive differentiator for you. And I think that's why when Mark was talking about people revisiting the sort of foundations like a decent website like you know, moving from conversation to close, all those sorts of things. I think as people see what better looks like, hopefully they're chuning themselves and say, you know, I have to do better than this because you know, all things being equal, am I paying a much enough for search optimization?

You know?

You know?

Am I showing up in these right places for people when they're making these decisions? And I think, you know, for those that are listening, you know, just to experiment a little bit with you know.

Am I showing up in these right places for people when they're making these decisions? And I think, you know, for those that are listening, you know, just to experiment a little bit with you know.

You pick your tool.

You pick your tool.

But for one I use as perplexity, going too perplexity and ask it to give you I'm going to Wellington for three days, you know, give me accommodations and places to eat out and interesting things to do. The answer you get back is so much richer and so much more contextual than Google. With all due respect to Google, will be you know, a list of paid ads telling you about you know, you can stay here, you can do this now. Obviously they're trying to tweak with Gemini and give a little bit more context to the ads that they're serving. But it's a very different world where you can get back and itinery that tells you interesting things to do. You can tune it for your budget. You can do all those things if that's the one thing you try. For me, that was a massive eye opener around the richness and the context that it can be generated through really simple prompting, really simple conversation, which is actually, you know, I've got a medium budget. That's the sort of language you can use and it will tune back a really good answer for you, and that's a game changer.

But for one I use as perplexity, going too perplexity and ask it to give you I'm going to Wellington for three days, you know, give me accommodations and places to eat out and interesting things to do. The answer you get back is so much richer and so much more contextual than Google. With all due respect to Google, will be you know, a list of paid ads telling you about you know, you can stay here, you can do this now. Obviously they're trying to tweak with Gemini and give a little bit more context to the ads that they're serving. But it's a very different world where you can get back and itinery that tells you interesting things to do. You can tune it for your budget. You can do all those things if that's the one thing you try. For me, that was a massive eye opener around the richness and the context that it can be generated through really simple prompting, really simple conversation, which is actually, you know, I've got a medium budget. That's the sort of language you can use and it will tune back a really good answer for you, and that's a game changer.

The flip side of that as a business, and I think this explains some of the growth and investment and websites, is you need to optimize your content to end up in that perplexity result or in AI overviews on Google. You have to give more explanatory information Q and as things that the algorithm is going to pick up and go. This is actually useful information, experiential stuff. That's why I redd it is so popular for training these models, because there's lots of people giving advice, so that's a big factor. Even down in this part of the world. Mark the study has always been a good barometer off some of the macro stuff, and I guess the optimism reflects the lower interest rates and the lower inflation. However, there are some challenges remaining particularly around sluggish demand and cost and you know the majority of businesses are going to put their prices up in the next year. The most common increase will be in the eleven to twenty percent band, although you know a fair chunk of them nearly a quarter sead potentially forty percent or above. I thought we were sort of over those big, chunky price increases, but it seems not.

The flip side of that as a business, and I think this explains some of the growth and investment and websites, is you need to optimize your content to end up in that perplexity result or in AI overviews on Google. You have to give more explanatory information Q and as things that the algorithm is going to pick up and go. This is actually useful information, experiential stuff. That's why I redd it is so popular for training these models, because there's lots of people giving advice, so that's a big factor. Even down in this part of the world. Mark the study has always been a good barometer off some of the macro stuff, and I guess the optimism reflects the lower interest rates and the lower inflation. However, there are some challenges remaining particularly around sluggish demand and cost and you know the majority of businesses are going to put their prices up in the next year. The most common increase will be in the eleven to twenty percent band, although you know a fair chunk of them nearly a quarter sead potentially forty percent or above. I thought we were sort of over those big, chunky price increases, but it seems not.

Yeah, So the study essentially says there will be fewer but larger increases. And if I look at the backdrop of the last twelve months, even from my own business perspective, of my own personal perspective, you've just got to look at sectors such as the electricity sector where there have been you know, significant price increases. You know, to the extent that impacts their householder is one thing, But when you have businesses turning off production or reducing and exporters competitiveness, I think there are some areas where when New Zealand does have to have a good hard look at kind of the settings. We have to make sure that those price increases don't have been going forward.

Yeah, So the study essentially says there will be fewer but larger increases. And if I look at the backdrop of the last twelve months, even from my own business perspective, of my own personal perspective, you've just got to look at sectors such as the electricity sector where there have been you know, significant price increases. You know, to the extent that impacts their householder is one thing, But when you have businesses turning off production or reducing and exporters competitiveness, I think there are some areas where when New Zealand does have to have a good hard look at kind of the settings. We have to make sure that those price increases don't have been going forward.

So inflation of pressures are there, they are real.

So inflation of pressures are there, they are real.

And again it's how as a small meeting business, you can navigate that and like I said, try and trying to absorb some of the cost increases where you can. But to a point Steve made down says earlier, it's around not always been about price, and it was encouraging to hear you know what customers experience when they go to kiwibank. It's a different type of service. They're getting something better. That's really encouraging, stuff that pushes things beyond price.

And again it's how as a small meeting business, you can navigate that and like I said, try and trying to absorb some of the cost increases where you can. But to a point Steve made down says earlier, it's around not always been about price, and it was encouraging to hear you know what customers experience when they go to kiwibank. It's a different type of service. They're getting something better. That's really encouraging, stuff that pushes things beyond price.

Now and again, yeah, maybe expand on that of it, Steve, that was a really good point you made.

Now and again, yeah, maybe expand on that of it, Steve, that was a really good point you made.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean when you think about what people really value, and that's his customers, not what we think they value, but what they say they value is they value know me, understand me, offer me products that are timely and relevant. So you tell me what's going on and then get me fast decisions and so. And then the fifth one is price. And so what I always sort of say, you know, prices an issue, it's not that issue. So then I think it is about Okay, so what do those customers really want to know? Which is most people will say when they're shifting from one band to another, is particularly in businesses. I felt like I was just a number my relationship. Managers are turning over all the time. They don't really understand my business. All those sorts of things can be helped by the tech, but the enthusiasm of the team member to show up and you know, and have her excited about trying to win your business goes a long way. Because I always think about business owners and people that are leading businesses. You lay awake at night worrying about what's going on. Can I win a customer, lose a customer? Can I find the right people?

I mean when you think about what people really value, and that's his customers, not what we think they value, but what they say they value is they value know me, understand me, offer me products that are timely and relevant. So you tell me what's going on and then get me fast decisions and so. And then the fifth one is price. And so what I always sort of say, you know, prices an issue, it's not that issue. So then I think it is about Okay, so what do those customers really want to know? Which is most people will say when they're shifting from one band to another, is particularly in businesses. I felt like I was just a number my relationship. Managers are turning over all the time. They don't really understand my business. All those sorts of things can be helped by the tech, but the enthusiasm of the team member to show up and you know, and have her excited about trying to win your business goes a long way. Because I always think about business owners and people that are leading businesses. You lay awake at night worrying about what's going on. Can I win a customer, lose a customer? Can I find the right people?

You know?

You know?

Is that project going properly? And then to have a big key service provider like a bank turn up and just treat you like another number is very jarring. And so what Mark was saying before about the fundamentals being done, well, I am still a massive fan of those, and enthusiasm goes a long way. Understanding your customers goes a long way. We all pay, you know, a bit more for things that we value. So if the customer can think about am I getting value from this provider and what I want to know about it, whether it be that they're fighting for fear and wanting to change things like two degrees, or you know, they're a new Zealand owned business which is trying to help them rather than Australian owned business.

Is that project going properly? And then to have a big key service provider like a bank turn up and just treat you like another number is very jarring. And so what Mark was saying before about the fundamentals being done, well, I am still a massive fan of those, and enthusiasm goes a long way. Understanding your customers goes a long way. We all pay, you know, a bit more for things that we value. So if the customer can think about am I getting value from this provider and what I want to know about it, whether it be that they're fighting for fear and wanting to change things like two degrees, or you know, they're a new Zealand owned business which is trying to help them rather than Australian owned business.

You know, we've got to make that real.

You know, we've got to make that real.

It's got to mean something, not just be enough to rely on that. Oh they'll come to us because we've got a good, decent strap line or whatever.

It's got to mean something, not just be enough to rely on that. Oh they'll come to us because we've got a good, decent strap line or whatever.

A good real example from a Turtoris perspective. We you know, we like to think of ourselves as a software company and not a sut telling communications company. We've built a productivity tool called Flex and it's a you know, it's a phenomenal tool that automates as much as we can for an end user. So a really simple example, if you're a business with twenty or thirty staff and you've got a new starter, you want to order a new phone, or port a number or turn on international roaming. You don't have to speak to us to do that anymore. We're there if you need us. We've built the tools and the software for you to do it yourself. So that's where we push productivity back to the businesses to make a difference and give them time back in their day versus the traditional model of getting frustrated and trying to deal with the human on the other end.

A good real example from a Turtoris perspective. We you know, we like to think of ourselves as a software company and not a sut telling communications company. We've built a productivity tool called Flex and it's a you know, it's a phenomenal tool that automates as much as we can for an end user. So a really simple example, if you're a business with twenty or thirty staff and you've got a new starter, you want to order a new phone, or port a number or turn on international roaming. You don't have to speak to us to do that anymore. We're there if you need us. We've built the tools and the software for you to do it yourself. So that's where we push productivity back to the businesses to make a difference and give them time back in their day versus the traditional model of getting frustrated and trying to deal with the human on the other end.

Of the phone. Yeah. Great.

Of the phone. Yeah. Great.

Just finally, guys, there's a section in the report looking at what can and should the government be doing to promote these things productivity growth in the economy. So you know, the industry wanted, according to the businesses surveyed, wanted some tax incentives. They seem to have got that in the budget and investment boost. The R and D tax and center is there. It's good to see R and D. Appetite to invest in R and D is up as well. That's in the report, particularly among the bigger businesses. So have we got the settings right? Has the government done enough? Do you think the Prime Minister this week is in China hustling going for growth as he has been in India. The primary sect the milk prices are up again, so they're going to expect bigger payouts in the next year. Are we doing enough? Has the government done enough? The government's doing something which is good. So again, if you're a small to medium business, cash flow is just critical. So you know, tax relief and tax benefits is certainly something that we see as a common theme amongst small to medium business. So the you know, the recent announcements for that person that was potentially on the fence around making an investment to putting some money back into the economy. It's a good step in the right direction. I think again, all businesses out there will at this point in time say they need more. But that's always the conundrum. It's a big one, six billion dollars. It's going to cost investment boosts. Steve, what do you think it's going to have a good return on investment? Yeah, I mean I think it's it's a positive step.

Just finally, guys, there's a section in the report looking at what can and should the government be doing to promote these things productivity growth in the economy. So you know, the industry wanted, according to the businesses surveyed, wanted some tax incentives. They seem to have got that in the budget and investment boost. The R and D tax and center is there. It's good to see R and D. Appetite to invest in R and D is up as well. That's in the report, particularly among the bigger businesses. So have we got the settings right? Has the government done enough? Do you think the Prime Minister this week is in China hustling going for growth as he has been in India. The primary sect the milk prices are up again, so they're going to expect bigger payouts in the next year. Are we doing enough? Has the government done enough? The government's doing something which is good. So again, if you're a small to medium business, cash flow is just critical. So you know, tax relief and tax benefits is certainly something that we see as a common theme amongst small to medium business. So the you know, the recent announcements for that person that was potentially on the fence around making an investment to putting some money back into the economy. It's a good step in the right direction. I think again, all businesses out there will at this point in time say they need more. But that's always the conundrum. It's a big one, six billion dollars. It's going to cost investment boosts. Steve, what do you think it's going to have a good return on investment? Yeah, I mean I think it's it's a positive step.

I mean my view, and Mark's probably got much more visibility to this than I have in a lot of ways. But you know, I think that the ask of government is to get the big settings right. And so if you think about why electricity is spiky because it's been difficult to invest in long term and so you know, if you are switching on and off, whether you can do gas exploration.

I mean my view, and Mark's probably got much more visibility to this than I have in a lot of ways. But you know, I think that the ask of government is to get the big settings right. And so if you think about why electricity is spiky because it's been difficult to invest in long term and so you know, if you are switching on and off, whether you can do gas exploration.

When investors are.

When investors are.

Looking around the world where they want to invest, the fact that things can change on in a very short cycle is difficult. And so I think cross party around some of the larger infrastructure and creating an environment where big investors with lots of capital and deep pockets see New Zealand as a place that's stable to invest in is the things that shift things. It's going to be a huge demand for data centers in hyperscale capability. Have we got the settings right for it making sure that this is the number one place that they want to come. Can we give them the access to the power and water and things that they need? You know, those are the things that they're enablers. Smaller medium businesses will get on with doing their stuff every single day. I think the business of government is to try and get those big settings right. It's difficult when there's three year terms and it's difficult when you can't agree on the big things. And so hopefully we see parties start to look into those big shifts that we need in health and infrastructure and say we're going to take a longer term view because actually everyone benefits and regardless of which side of the earlier on, we're better off when we make those big shifts.

Looking around the world where they want to invest, the fact that things can change on in a very short cycle is difficult. And so I think cross party around some of the larger infrastructure and creating an environment where big investors with lots of capital and deep pockets see New Zealand as a place that's stable to invest in is the things that shift things. It's going to be a huge demand for data centers in hyperscale capability. Have we got the settings right for it making sure that this is the number one place that they want to come. Can we give them the access to the power and water and things that they need? You know, those are the things that they're enablers. Smaller medium businesses will get on with doing their stuff every single day. I think the business of government is to try and get those big settings right. It's difficult when there's three year terms and it's difficult when you can't agree on the big things. And so hopefully we see parties start to look into those big shifts that we need in health and infrastructure and say we're going to take a longer term view because actually everyone benefits and regardless of which side of the earlier on, we're better off when we make those big shifts.

And we've been doing a lot of work with the Chamber of Commerce in Auckland obviously around how can we make Auckland a tech hub all right? Now, again you come back to fundamental settings you've got to have in an environment. You've got to have connectivity. You've got to have technology, it's got to be cost effective, so you have to get the settings right to meet our ambition to lift wages in this country, to get foreign investment in So all of those factors need to be solved with time. But again it's a it's a spans political systems, it's a you know, it's a multi decade view that I think we need to take as a country. But if we get it right, you know, the opportunity is areen us.

And we've been doing a lot of work with the Chamber of Commerce in Auckland obviously around how can we make Auckland a tech hub all right? Now, again you come back to fundamental settings you've got to have in an environment. You've got to have connectivity. You've got to have technology, it's got to be cost effective, so you have to get the settings right to meet our ambition to lift wages in this country, to get foreign investment in So all of those factors need to be solved with time. But again it's a it's a spans political systems, it's a you know, it's a multi decade view that I think we need to take as a country. But if we get it right, you know, the opportunity is areen us.

That's a wrap for this special episode of the Business of Tech. A huge thank you to our panelists Mark Calendar and Steve Yerkovic for their insights and their candor. Twenty five Shaping Business Study paints a picture of the business community that's optimistic, ambitious, and ready to innovate, but also clear eyed about the challenges ahead. If you found today's discussion valuable, register to download the twenty twenty five Shaping Business Study using the link in the episode description. Subscribe to the Business of Tech for more conversations at the intersection of tech and business on iHeartRadio or your favorite podcast app. Thanks to two Degrees for carrying on this important longitudinal study and for their ongoing support of the podcast over the last one hundred and four episodes, and finally thanks to you for listening. Here's to a productive, innovative and optimistic year ahead for New Zealand business. Kakataana

That's a wrap for this special episode of the Business of Tech. A huge thank you to our panelists Mark Calendar and Steve Yerkovic for their insights and their candor. Twenty five Shaping Business Study paints a picture of the business community that's optimistic, ambitious, and ready to innovate, but also clear eyed about the challenges ahead. If you found today's discussion valuable, register to download the twenty twenty five Shaping Business Study using the link in the episode description. Subscribe to the Business of Tech for more conversations at the intersection of tech and business on iHeartRadio or your favorite podcast app. Thanks to two Degrees for carrying on this important longitudinal study and for their ongoing support of the podcast over the last one hundred and four episodes, and finally thanks to you for listening. Here's to a productive, innovative and optimistic year ahead for New Zealand business. Kakataana