How fluffy is YOUR hippocampus? Dr. Wendy Suzuki, a neuroscientist and expert on brain plasticity, joins to share all about the incredible effects of exercise on the brain. Dr. Suzuki reveals how regular movement (especially aerobic exercise) does more than keep our bodies healthy — it actually changes the structure of our brains, boosting memory, focus, and mood. She shares her personal journey of discovering the power of exercise (even a ten-minute walk!) and explains how we can all use movement to create a “fluffy hippocampus,” improve cognitive function, and protect against age-related decline.
Hello Sunshine, Hey Bessies.
Today on the bright Side, we're talking with doctor Wendy Suzuki about how exercise doesn't just make you happier and healthier, it actually changes your brain.
Ask yourself, what can I do for my brain today to benefit the rest of my life.
It's Wednesday, November thirteenth. I'm Simone Boyce.
I'm Danielle Robe and this is the bright Side from Hello Sunshine, a daily show where we come together to share women's stories, to laugh, learn and brighten your day.
Today's Wellness Wednesday is presented by Coligard.
Okay, Simone, It's Wellness Wednesday, and today we're joined by a neuroscientist. Doctor Wendy Suzuki is amazing. She's a professor of neuroscience and psychology at NYU, specializing in brain plasticity, which is the amazing ability that our brains have to change over time, and her research explores how we can build positive habits to ensure that those changes benefit us in real, lasting ways.
Danielle, you got to talk to doctor Suzuki when I was away, and I have been so curious to hear this interview. I think as someone who prioritizes exercise in my own life. I've always been aware of the positive benefits of working out. I think we all are at this point. It's essential for our well being, our physical body, our heart. I'm excited to learn about the health benefits of exercise on our brain, though.
Simone, I have been thinking about this interview since we recorded it. I go to the gym Monday, Wednesday Friday in the morning before the show, and I have to tell you I shared everything I learned with all the people at the gym. I taught everybody about a fluffy hippocampus. So you're going to hear this term she uses in our conversation, and I hope it's as memorable for you as it was for me. A fluffy hippocampus. Okay, let's get into it. Here's my conversation with doctor Wendy Suzuki. Okay, doctor Suzuki. We all know that exercise is good for our bodies. I'm actually wearing exercise clothes right now. All right, But you've discovered that it's actually one of the most powerful tools that we have for our brains. Yes, what was the moment that you realized just how transformative exercise could be not just for the body, but for the mind.
Yeah. So I had first become a lab rat in my own lab, only working trying to get ten your very stressful process. And I decided I was only going to work and I ate a lot of takeout, and I worked and worked and worked, and I was not very happy, and I was not socially engaged beyond the people in my lab. And I did give myself a vacation and I went on a river rafting trip and I discovered nature again and it was wonderful. And they were all these triathletes on the trip, and it inspired me to go back to the gym because being outside we were in Peru, it was so beautiful. And I said, I need more of this in my life. And I went back to the gym and it stuck. I enjoyed it. I didn't love it at first, but I could feel that this is what I needed. And a year and a half later, the moment that you asked about when is the AHA moment was when I was sitting in my office trying to write an NIH grant and the thought went through my mind, gosh, grant writing went well. Today. I had never had that thought in my mind after whatever six years of writing grants and doing research, and you know, I could think, oh, well, I'm just having a good day, so good for me. No, it was because the only thing that I changed in my life was going to the gym regularly, and I was feeling good. And what I realized is that my focus was getting deeper, my memory seemed to work better, my mood was actually through the roof. And that was the big aha that made me go back and really want to understand what exercise was doing to my brain.
Well, you actually switched your research because of this realization, which I thought was pretty meaningful when you came across this discovery about exercise in your labs. And again, what surprised you most about how exercise impacts the way our minds work?
You know, gosh, that's such a great question. What surprised me most was how powerful this activity was for our brains. So it surprised me by it's power that I kind of stepped back, like, this is free, This is available for anybody anywhere to do and has the power because of that, because of the equanimity of exercise, but the real one, because I love the hippocampus. Part of the brain critical for memory is that regular exercise will increase a neurochemical called a growth factor that gets released in your brain every single time you exercise. It's like a little bubble bath of growth factors. Those growth factors go to the hippocampus and grow brand new brain cells. Wow, it's one of only two brain areas in the human the adult human brain, where new brain cells can be born, and it's free to get new hippocampal brain cells. Who doesn't want a better memory, Who doesn't want what I like to call a bigger, fatterer, fluffier hippocampus.
I love when you call it fluffy, and I love that you love the hippocampus. You talk about it a lot in your TED talk, and you talk about how exercise is the single best thing we can do for our brains. But you cite three reasons. Can we go through those three?
Yes? So I call exercise the most transformative thing that anybody can do for their brain right now. One because you immediately get benefits from even a single workout. And this is because every time you work out, there is a release of a torrent of neurochemicals in your brain, including dopamine, serotonin, nor adrenaline. This is going to make you feel good, it's going to make you feel rewarded, it's going to make you feel motivated. So every movement session, including a ten minute walk, has been shown to decrease depression and anxiety levels and increase positive mood states as well. So you get not only that with an immediate workout, but your focus and attention, dependent on the prefrontal cortex, improves with a single workout. Usually those workouts are workouts that include an aerobic component. That is, your heart weight is going up and or motor reaction times are getting better. So that's just the immediate benefits. That's benefit number one.
And when you say immediate, does that mean I do this ten minute walk and then I see and feel all of these benefits right afterwards.
Yes, exactly. Now those benefits are not going to last the rest of your life. Your ten minute walk isn't going to change your mood for the rest of your life. They are temporary, but they are significant. But the second benefit that you get from exercise is a long lasting benefit. Those are the long term benefits of regular exercise in your life. So imagine giving your brain that bubble bath of neurochemicals, not just once a one off but regularly for three months, six months, hopefully for the rest of your life.
And when you say neurochemicals and neurotransmitters, you mean serotonin and dopamine, all the feel.
Good they're neurotransmitters, that's what they're called.
So all these feel good neurotransmitters that go off in our brain.
Exactly, they go up as well as growth factors are going up. I'm giving you a curated list. There are many more neurochemicals that go up. So the next benefit are the long term benefits of physical, regular physical activity. Again, you're giving your brain this bubble bath on a regular basis. And what happens is those growth factors not only grow shiny new hippocampal cells, making your hippocampus big and fat and fluffy, but growth factors and other factors we haven't identified all of them that are at play, but they go to your prefrontal cortex and increase the number of connections or synapses in the prefrontal cortex, importantly making it work better. Your focused attention will be better, not temporarily, but your baseline levels will improve with long term exercise.
And my prefrontal cortex is also where I make decisions, right, It is absol that's really important.
That's really important.
There's more coming up with doctor Wendy Suzuki. We'll be right back after the break. Welcome back. We're picking up on the conversation with doctor Wendy Suzuki. Do you think that any of these long term effects help us in communication skills? Like if our mood is boosted long term, are we better when we're fighting with our partner?
You know, I can't think of any studies that I've looked at, but would you rather be fighting with your partner after a mood boosting kickboxing class or after a night of sleep deprivation when we're cranky and angry and you know, angry. Of course, I'd rather come into any conversation with a significant person in my family with a better mood, a better mindset. Again, exercise hasn't been studied directly on mindset, but mood is a really important part of mindset. So yes, it can help with that, thank you.
And then the third one that you mentioned are the protective aspects.
Yes, yes, so these are long term protective aspects. Because one thing that I haven't mentioned so far is that the two brain areas that are some of the most susceptible to both aging and dementia are the hippocampus and the prefrontal cortex. Now, these new cells and new synapses is not a cure for either aging or dementia. But imagine a lifetime of regular exercise making your prefrontal cortex and your hippocampus huge and fluffy and gyrated, and it's just firing on all cylinders. Frankly, it is going to make the plaques and tangles that come in to damage and then kill the cells, particularly in the hip a campus. It's going to take longer to do it because you have many more epic campal cells to do it. So it's a way. It's a strategic and a free strategy that is staving off the decline that often comes with aging. And for myself and so many others that are listening to this podcast, you might have Alzheimer's in your family. My father passed away with Alzheimer's dementia, so you can believe that that is part of my motivation. But my bubble bath, the visions of my brain getting a bubble bath every morning when I work out, and that the thought of growing a big fat fluffy at a campus in prefrontal cortex are also my admittedly nerdy motivation as a neuroscientist to work out every day.
I am now going to be thinking of my brain looking like a big, fluffy bubble bath, which is so great. Yes, I love that imagery. You mentioned aerobic exercise as being really important. I'm wondering if we can sort of hone in on that. Some people like to lift weights, some people do yoga, some people prefer high intensity workouts. Are there specific types of exercise that provide more brain benefits than others do?
So here here's what the data show. The most research has been done on aerobic activity, which simply is activity that increases your heart rate, whatever it is. Lots of different kinds have been studied, from running to cycling to other forms of sports. That has been shown with the largest number of studies to give you these brain benefits that we just talked about, the immediate, the long lasting, and the protective brain benefits. That does not mean that, oh my god, I love to lift weights and that's no good for my brain. It just means that there hasn't been as much research done on that. But if you want to focus on the thing that has most evidence to benefit your brain, that is any movement that is increasing your heart rate, that is aerobic exercise.
Okay, so in that vein, if you could design the ultimate brain boosting workout, what would it include?
You know, it really depends on what you like. What I can tell you as a scientist is do something that you love that gets your heart rate up. If friends motivate, you do it with friends. Let me start with the least amount that you need to do to get some benefit, and that is ten minutes of walking has been shown. Look, you don't even have to change your shoes, go for ten minute walk That has been shown to decrease anxiety and depression levels. So that's it. You get all the other brain benefits. No, not from ten minutes of walking. But we have done studies in my lab that showed if your low fit, you're just starting out, you haven't started your exercise journey yet, and you say, oh gosh, how do I have to get in into it? If it's not just ten minutes of walking. Three months of two to three times a week cardio workout, and in our study we did spin forty five minutes two to three times a week, significantly improved mood, significantly improved prefrontal function, your ability to shift and focus attention, and a measure of memory function dependent on the hippocampus of related regions as well. Is that the least I don't know. We didn't do the study to be the least. We thought this would be a good measure to hit that would get us results, and it was two to three times a week is doable. It will get your sweat on, it'll make you feel good, and that will start to change your brain.
And is there sort of this magic number because I hear a lot in magazines, are on TV or in podcasts of like the thirty minute rule with working out, is there a time at which you start to see the brain boost even more?
So, that's a great question And the answer is, we don't know that, but I did with midfit participants that we're already working out about two times a week, So that's a lot of people out there. And first thing is that two times a week already benefiting your brain, so you're already getting something. But there we asked, what if we asked them to do more, would we see a more of a brain benefit? And the short answer is yes, we did. And exercise turns out to be very democratic. That is, we found that the more the people sweated, the more brain benefit they got. So what you're doing is helping. You're walking, you're taking your dog for the walk, you're dancing, all helping, and just know that anything more that you do is going to benefit your brain more. Ask yourself, what can I do for my brain today? What do I want to do to help make my brain as big and fat and fluffy as I can when aging comes in and dementia might come in if I have it in my genes, not as a scared thing, but as this is something that I could do right now to benefit the rest of my life.
Is it ever too late to make these changes?
That is such a great question in terms of age, No, there isn't, because studies have shown that people that are already in the early stages of Alzheimer's disease can benefit from a regular exercise program in terms of low in their dementia score. Their everyday dementia score gets lower. It doesn't cure dementia, but it has a demonstrable effect, and that should not be overestimated because people say, oh, well, I'm whatever, I'm fifty years old. I can't start now. Yes you can, Yes you can. It will be helpful. Again, it doesn't matter when you start how old you are. Again, exercise is democratic. It will go with you, it'll work with you, put in the work, and you will get that benefit.
That's so wonderful to hear. We'll be right back, Bestie's. The rest of my conversation with doctor Suzuki is right after the break, and we're back with doctor Wendy Suzuki. I was reading last night as I was preparing for this about data published in twenty twenty three, and it said that our brains are not naturally inclined to exercise. So evolutionarily speaking, our hunter gatherer ancestors were not jogging for fun. They were preserving and conserving energy.
So as a.
Result, I think we have this little reluctant voice in our mind that says, oh, I don't want to get up, I don't want to exercise, which is totally normal and natural. But I'm wondering if there's a way to override that voice and encourage ourselves to get that brain boost.
Well, that is such a great question because that stops so many people. It is hard to start. It's not like, oh, it's so easy, go go, Why aren't you doing it? No, it's hard. And in fact, just this morning, I did a post for my Instagram about making the hard choice and even me, I talk about this all the time, and I cannot go on these podcasts and not talk the talk and also acknowledge that some days I make the lower tri I do five minutes, I do ten minutes instead of my thirty minutes. But some days I make the harder choice. And it made me feel so good to do that. And how did I get to that spot? It is building slowly, building up a habit. And when did I build that habit up strongly? During the pandemic I had more time and I couldn't go to the gym. I found a way to do it. And that habit of working at at home without all that motivation around me has served me so well going forward that I benefit every single day. But it's hard, and you have to be kind with yourself, and you have to give yourself all the motivation that you can. If it is going to the gym with the music and your favorite little lemon. Right, do that. But that's a key.
So you made me think of this as you were sharing. If you have to make a choice between sleep and exercise, yeah, in terms of the benefits to our brain, what is the correct choice?
So that's such a great question, And so here's my answer. If I deprive you of working out, what happens. You know, you don't get all the bit and festing, but you're fine. If I deprive you of sleep long enough, you will die because it is so fundamental to our normal physiology.
If you could leave our listeners with one simple message about the connection between movement and the brain, something that might inspire them or that they think about on those days where they just don't feel like getting up, what would you say.
I would say that I want everybody to remember that your brain is literally the most complex structure known to humankind. We don't often think about that. It's all my silly brain. I can't remember this, I can't remember, but it's it is the most complex structure. That's why so many neuroscientists still don't understand it after one hundred years of deep study. And that yours is unique your brain is unique as you are, and that exercise is going to change the trajectory of your brain so that it reaches the potential that it should. That that is the aspiration that I keep in my mind, and I hope that everybody can take in their motivation toolbox as well.
I'm going to think of a brain bubble bath when I don't want to wake up in the morning in an alternate universe. You are not the dean, You are not a neuroscientist. You are a DJ, and you are at a brain boosting dance party. What is the first song that you'd play to get everybody's neurons firing happy?
By Pharrell? Oh?
I like that.
I love that song.
Thank you so much for your time. This was really really informative.
Thank you so much. This is so much fun.
Doctor Wendy Suzuki is a professor of neuroscience and psychology and the Dean of Arts and Sciences at NYU.
That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we're talking all about parenting with one of our favorite economists, best selling author, and the founder and CEO of parent Data. It's Emily Oster. Thank you to our partners at Coli Guard, The one of a kind way to screen for colon cancer in the privacy and comfort of your own home. Talk to your doctor or healthcare provider, or go to coliguard dot com slash podcast to see if you're eligible to order online. If you're forty five or older and at average risk, ask your healthcare provider about screening for colon cancer with Coliguard. You can also request a collar guard prescription today at coliguard dot com slash podcast. Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect with us on social media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram and at the bright Side Pod on TikTok Oh, and feel free to tag us at simone Voice and at danielle Robe.
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