The Book of Joe with Joe Maddon and Tom VerducciJoe Maddon and Tom Verducci discuss Spring Training getting underway and how teams set the right tone. We'll be watching Mike Trout moving to right field, Shohei Ohtani back on the mound, and Rafael Devers with the Red Sox. Tom explores the potential trade prospects for Vlad Guerrero while touching on the heartbreak felt by Aaron Judge after the Yankees' World Series loss. When it comes to financial strategy, are you behind the Yankees or the Mets right now?
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Hey thereon Welcome Back.
It's the Book of Joe podcast with me, Tom Verducci and of course Joe Madden.
Joe.
Spring training is here, my man, and it is a great time of year.
It was always my favorite. Honestly, I hope does spring eternal. You wade all winter to get that done. A little bit anks as a manager going into it as much as anything, because you're always prepping.
For me.
It was always about the inaugural speeches.
You know.
I went first with the pictures and catchers, and then you would do it again for full squad. And it was always about setting the right tone, the message or philosophical perspective. Beyond anything else, was just trying to get our heads in the right spot and try to create some common ground here so we're all pulling at the proverbial same end of the rope. So that was my thing. I used to go to Ken Rivisa for sports psychologist. Ken let me talk to his class either at cal State Fullerton or he would take me out to dirt bag Field blair Field and I would address the Long Beach State team and I would work on the stuff I was gonna say to my team, our team at that when we got to that particular juncture.
So that was always cool, but really took it seriously.
It was wonderful and nerve wracking a bit a little bit because you just wanted to get us off to a good start.
Well, yeah, those first day meetings you're talking about in that big speech, As you know, the game has changed a lot, Joe, and there's a lot more help in that room. I've been at the New York Mets camp at Port Saint Lucie, and you know that first day meeting, Traditionally the players pile into a conference room. I just know I wasn't there in the meeting itself. The Mets had way more support people in that room than they had actual players. Support people are outnumbering the players, and not by a little. So the game has grown a lot. But hey, we're here to talk about the game back on the field the crack of the bat, and we've got a line up for you today in today's podcast. I think you're gonna like, how about this, Joe. We have Mike Trout, sho Hey, O'tani, Radfield, Devers, Nolan Aronato, Aaron judge Juan Soto, that's just the start of things. How does that sound good?
I'm familiar with these guys.
Go ahead, yes, Well, let me start with mister Mike Trout. Okay, because Mike shows up at spring training day one and the Angels allow him to break the news that he is moving out of center field. He's been a full time center field or his whole career, of course, uh, moving over to the corner to try to keep him healthy. Joe, I know when you were there with the Angels, you went through this with Mike. You sort of innocuously let it drop that, hey, we might move him at a center field to do exactly this, try to keep him healthy, right, And there was backlash and that was the end of that.
And now Mike, you know, missing really.
Almost sixty percent of his games the last four years, almost has no choice in this matter. I think he realizes, at thirty three, turning thirty four, this is for.
His own good.
Give me a reaction now about Mike going to right field and your experience in the past and nearly making that move.
Yeah, I mean at that time I thought it was the right thing to do.
He had discussed it internally, among the for an office staff, and I didn't think it was anything that earth shadowy.
I really didn't.
I thought I thought it was going to go over pretty well, and again only to protect protect somebody, a great athlete, great player, great guy, all those kind of different things.
So it made all the sense in the world to me, based on his most recent history, anything you.
Could do to keep that guy in the lineup as often as you possibly can. The time I was there, I don't even know if he was in the lineup thirty three percent of the time forty percent of the time, I'm not even sure, but it was not a lot, so easily thinking that get him out of that one position put him in a corner kind of like relegated is the area that he has to cover. The things he has to do, and right fields not easy. I'm not saying that he'd have to learn ball coming off the bat. The ball is always going to hook or slice at the right field line, little little mental things, but with an athlete, so I just thought it made sense. So now that it's happening, I'm good for him because hopefully.
They will be able to keep him on the field.
He needs to be out there and the baseball world needs to see him out there. It is a generational talent. It's just too bad what has happened. And I just hopefully the best for him. I wish him the best because it's that good when it's out there.
Yeah, And I know people like to make a big deal of the fact that, you know, and Mike chuckled at this MLB Networks ranking of the top one hundred players in baseball. He came in at number thirty nine, which you know, listen, it's it's ridiculous until you actually do factor in just purely playing time, right He's not. They're not thirty eight baseball players on the planet right now who are better than Mike Trout. I'm sorry, but when you just factor in the ability to be to post and be on the field, I get why he might slip when you're looking at it analytically, But Joe, I think the world has forgotten how good and great Mike Trout is and I think it's still there.
I really really do.
You know, even around the injuries when he was out there, he's like a nine hundred plus ops player. And I actually think and I want to get your take on this, Joe, I think Mike has evolved into a different kind of hitter. I think in a full season Mike is a forty or fifty home run guy. He's much more of a pul side fly ball hitter than that line drive over the second baseman's head into the gap a screamer than he was when he came up. So I don't think you're going to see Mike contend for batting titles and hit well over three hundred the way he did in the early years. But I do think his power numbers are going to rank up there with some of the best. Wouldn't surprise me if he's in the mix for a home run title. That's the way I see Mike Trout. Give him to me again, give him one hundred and forty five to fifty games.
And I think he's nearing fifty home runs.
Well, I think what happened with all that is just analytics computer's data based on how we had hit before and what he's hitting, like what he's evolved into before this became more obvious because like when we remember playing specifically against him with the Rays, I wanted left handed on him. I wanted left handant elevated velocity on him, and that was none other than Jake McGee. So he got to the latter part of the game. This is just observational. It just looked to me like, you know, I know his left hand that I get. I know he throws fastball, you get it. But it just if you watch Mike swing, it's just a little bit harder for him to get to that particular pitch based on the way his body works and the bad angle.
So that's it.
So I think as as this data became more ubiquitous, other people saw these kind of things and they started pitching him differently, which then took away that. I mean, because they're going to go up and a way up and away hard, hard, hard. He's going to have to narrow it down to a different part of the plate. Now, they're just not going to stay there all the time. So his thing is to really look down, down and end. That's where he really is very, very dangerous when the ball's middled down. I'm saying, like thigh high down, even the knees, but blow the knees a little bit is a great spot for him. Even in a limited time I was with him, I did not from the sideline. I didn't like when he took a call strike that looked to be down, because that's pretty much down in the middle for him. So I think his sweet spot's always been the same where he does his best damage and the kind of pitches like a breaking ball strike.
You don't want to do that now.
And again I think this is like something that became recognized because you look at him and you think you're just going to stay away from the fastball.
This guy's going to kill your fastball.
But again, analytically, as more information is put out there than you learn, well maybe not, that's not true if you put in a certain spot. So I think what he's hitting and how he's hitting right now is the residue of how he's being pitched at. When he sees what he likes, he's going for it. He's not going to miss it as often. And I think that's why the balls were on the pull side based on that is where he likes it in the past. I would say down in a way would be a pitch easily he could have driven to right central and over the right center field fence, or a hard line drive up the gap.
But I don't even know this.
I'd have to guess he doesn't see that very often anymore. I think this is a perfect example of how data driven scouting beyond just eyeballs, really impacts a hitter like him, because the things that they're doing to him now they would have never done to him in the past, only because the assumption was that was not the right thing to do.
Yeah. To me, he's the best low ball hitter I've seen since Mark McGuire. That includes breaking pitches. So I think the universe of pitchers who can elevate the ball with velocity and spin is much larger. The population of that universe is much larger today than it was when Mike Trout first broke into the big leagues, so that is continues to be a hole for Mike Trout. I think he's gotten better about not offering at that pitch, you know, un Less obviously it's in the zone and it's two strikes. That's been kind of his anecdote to anecdote to fighting off all those high fastballs.
But yes, I agree with you, the analytics, the scouting is just.
Too good, and the holes are more exposed in the game today than ever before. But give me your take then, Joe on Listen, there's not a lot of protection around Mike Trout in the lineup. It's not a deep, necessarily deep lineup. Left handed power really not there. So what do you see from Mike and, given you know what's around him or not around him in this.
Angels lineup, what he might do with a healthy season.
I think he's still capable of like that nine hundred oh ps, no question. I think he's thirty plus home runs, no question. You know, RBIs are just going to be contingent upon where he hits and how good the other guys are around him. Walks versus strikeouts. You know, he doesn't go up there necessarily looking for walks, but I think he's if he accepts his walks. Basically, it's the best way to describe it. I'm not just look for a walk. Accept it. He's going to strike out, don'try about his strikeouts. Whatever that number is at the end of the year, poom, that's good.
It's going to be.
But if he could just really narrow a strike zone down and force like you're saying, pitchers down war in his zones that lay off that stuff on the top, here's a guy that could be infected impacted by robo. I'ms also just by the fact that something might tick the top of the zone that he doesn't like, that looks like a ball with them becomes a striker. I could go everywhere with this, So for me, yes, everything's in play. Numbers wise good, I say, should hit no lower than second in the batting order. Just he's the kind of guy that needs the entire batting order to protect him when there's not necessarily just one guy to do that. Even leadoff to me, he's not out of the question like the Yankees did with Judge. If Mike would accept that only because it puts pressure on the pitchers that come after him, because he's got everybody else behind him, everybody else being two three four who should be decent. So yes, he's capable of all that. Don't worry about your strikeouts, accept your walks, protect him with the whole batting order, stay with your game plan. Don't get out of your zarby just because you know it's obvious that the elevated velocity does bother you. Don't worry about that hammer, which you do do well, and if you do that, you're going to see it often enough. You've just got to be ready for it to put up those kind of numbers.
All right, let's stay on the theme of former Joe Madden players and talk about show. Hey Otani, me and the rest of the planet continued to be amazed by the athlete that Sho hay is. He gets on the mound for the first time in a bullpen session in spring training, and I saw the video and immediately I went.
Wow, that's a different show. Hey o, Tonny.
We have never seen him pitched out of the wind up before, but there he was the camel back range the Dodgers camp pitching out of the wind up. Now, remember he's coming back from a second procedure on his right elbow. We've only seen in the major league pitching out of that stretch position, even with nobody on base, And boy did it look fluid.
No surprise, he's such a great athlete. I get that. The other thing that really jumped out of me, Joe.
I looked at his arm angle on the release point where he was letting that ball go, and I immediately went back and grabbed some video of twenty twenty three spring training, and he is back to where that slot should be. His arm slot had actually dropped, you know, in his last couple of years on the mound, and he should be. I call it a high three quarters, not over the top, but a high three quarters. And he was actually low three quarters back in twenty twenty three, maybe feeling the effects of what was going to be that injury that popped up and shut him down in August. But when I look at him throwing in Dodgers camp, and I know it's only a bullpen session, that release point was back above six feet off the ground, and it had dropped a good four or five inches below that his normal natural release point back in twenty twenty three. So listen, he's just throwing fastballs right now. He was clocked at ninety two ninety four. But when I saw him throw Joe, first of all, I actually prefer guys out of the wind up. I think you can add some deception, you had some rhythm, and I think the purpose behind this is actually it does take some wear and tear off the arm. Now listen, if you're not comfortable doing it, you're not a great athlete. Fine, pitch out of the stretch or whatever floats your boat. But I'd love seeing him out of the wind up. And I love seeing him getting on top of the base ball like he had not been in twenty two and twenty three.
Yeah, I think they probably did.
Some researchers sold them on the fact that the wind up provide more of a tension free kind of a pitch armstroke, release, less effort kind of thing until you need to until he needs to get out of the stretch and amp it up a little bit. I don't know that, but I would bet that's part of it. They probably sold them on the deception component of that, and it's something that is a lot of Japanese pitchers do so well with their hesitations and their pauses. Maybe that was brought up to maybe when he got back home, maybe his old manager coach said something to him. But it makes sense to take a little bit pressure off the arm.
Number one.
Number two talked about the lowering of the arm angle. Part of that may be true about the arm was weakening. The other thing is he just so creative. He was probably mimicking things that he saw that he thought was going to do he would do well with, and the fact that it would make him more successful.
That's just how he is. He sees everything and when you're that good.
You could look at a video of Sam Steed and have Sam Sneed's whole approachating a golf ball.
Not everybody can do that, but show he.
Could look at somebody do something well and say I want to do that too, and then go out there and do it. So I'd even be curious as to if it was lowered, just based on the fact through creativity that he to do something other than he normally did in the past. So, yes, it all makes sense. He's going to transition just fine. I mean, there's no doubt in my mind that none of this surprises me.
What you're saying.
About to wind up that had not thought about that, But I would say that I bet, like I said, that potential to take some stress off the arm, whip nobody's on base, go ahead and do it.
Just go ahead, wind up and throw the baseball more easily.
With a They're probably trying to get him to be less effort because he's kind of a full effort guy most of the time, So that truck probably trying to relax the effort on that arm, and that's probably part of the equation.
Yeah, I'm glad you brought it up. You know, he does everything with a purpose. He's the most purposeful baseball player I have been around, probably since Cal Ripken. Right, everything is well thought out, and as I said, he's a good enough athlete to do things in different ways where it's not just the seat of the pants.
It's very purposeful.
You go back to his first year after he came over here, he got eaten up in spring training basically by Major League velocity, and he had that high lay kick and he just wasn't getting the bat through the zone. And it was actually in the Freeway Series, So you're talking only a matter of days before Opening Day when he decided, well, I'm just not gonna lay kick anymore, and just immediately, and I mean immediately, with a brand new setup to his swing, he just took off. I mean, so I put nothing past him and Joe. Think about this. If you're Dave Roberts here the Dodgers' front office as well, Obviously he's going to be in your lineup as the DH for the first month of the season. We're not going to see him pitch for the Dodgers until May, which is fine, but he's not going on a rehab assignment because you're not gonna send show Heye to the minor leagues. You need his bat in the major league lineup, so they're going to have to get him ready to start in the major leagues only with SIM games. So the Dodgers are most likely to have to fly in some minor league players because I don't think that you know, the four reserve guys and the Dodgers rosters want to do this five times. So before games, show Hay is going to be out there throwing SIM games to minor league hitters to get him ready for his first major league start with no minor league starts, no rehab starts after missing a year, and then the first month of the season, and it wouldn't surprise me if he hits the ground running.
Yeah, that's not gonna matter. He's one of the few guys that's not going to matter. These days, a lot of the rehab guys do not want to go back to the minor leagues for any period of time. They all want to do this sim game thing. And even with the Angels, I remember we had started flying hitters in just like you're suggesting to help pitchers rehab and get back to the major league rosters.
So that will happen.
It's not going to matter to him because part of it is the competitive juice, is the fact that you're going to at least go to a minor league game, get out there in front of a crowd, and that might namp you up a little bit and you're able to throw more closely to what you would actually do during a major league game.
He would show you. We've already talked about this. That's not going to matter.
He's going to go out there with the same purpose, regardless if he's pitching in front of nobody at Dodger Stadium against a bunch of dudes from Albuquerque, whoever the Triple A team is these days. He's going to be the same cat, same purpose, same result. So yeah, it makes no difference to him. He's going to be the same. He's going to go about his business the same way regardless of how they set it up, and it's going to be equally as successful.
Well, Joe, I know you to be a very good problem solver, So we're going to take a quick break and I'm going to allow you to come up with a solution to this problem that the Boston Red Sox have.
What do you do with Raphael Devers.
We'll tackle that right after this on the Book of Joe.
Welcome back to the Book of Joe and Joe.
I can't recall a situation quite like this where a team goes out and signs a premier free agent, in this case, Alex Bregman to the Boston Red Sox, and the team says, well, we don't know where he's playing yet, and we're in spring training and players on the field.
It's ridiculous, but this is what we have.
Of course, Rafiel Dever's the incumb at third baseman and really the franchise player by light of the fact that you know he's signed for a gazillion years.
He's proud.
You know, he's put in a lot of work at third base. He's not a good defender at third Statistically, he's the worst defender at third base in the major leagues. I happen to think he's not awful, but that she gives you an idea what the metrics think of his defense at third base, And anyway, he's worked hard to get himself better and doesn't want to give that the position.
Alex Bregnan is a much better defender at third base.
And yet they're not committing whether he's going to play second or third base, and alex Corus said, we're going to do what's right for the Boston Red Sox. Well, you would have done that already if you know what the answer is, and I think they do know what the answer is. So John going to put you at alex Corus spikes. How the heck do you handle this situation?
First of all, before you make a trade like that and you are acquisition like that, free agently, you talk to Devers and say we're going to do this, okay, and if we do this, this is what's gonna happen.
Period.
So I can't believe that was done without an advanced conversation with him, And you can't. You can't withhold in conversations like that. It's you know, it's uncomfortable. Guy's not gonna like it. But this comes under the category if I tell you the truth, you I might not like me for a week or ten days. If I lie to you, You're gonna hate me forever. It comes under that category. So if there's such a disparity between the two, defensively, and that's a big thing. Defense, you got to catch the baseball. It's well too easy at that point. So this to me would have been done before the acquisition. Announcement was announcement before beyond that, You've got to know the answer that you had to assume the questions. You have to know the answer before the questions asked. I mean, we always did that. You know a lot of times front offices don't want to put it right out there. There's a little dissembling going on. And so if I knew it was gonna be one of those moments, I would ask Arv or Peter or somebody, what is Perry think? What is THEO think? What does Andrew think about this situation? I needed to know that first because I did not want to present I'd be contradictory to them.
But I wanted Jack Ryan. I wanted to.
Be perfectly honest, tell him straight up, because when you do that, everything goes way more quickly.
Period.
Yeah, and Jod, I'd love to get your take on this. You know, Dallas Green is not managing anymore. You know, it's my way or a highway. So for the people who are going to say, well, they're paying him a lot of money, just go be the DH or go be the first whatever it is, give up third base, do what the team tells you to do. I don't subscribe to that theory. Not in today's game. Rafael Devers is an All star player. He's a franchise player at the Boston Red Sox. He's a prideful guy. I don't begrudge a player, and I don't see it as selfish Joe.
I really don't.
Don't forget when he signed his contract. Originally the Red Sox signed him to be their long term third basement and I'm not buying the argument from Alex Korra that well, hein Bloom was in charge, then he's not here anymore. No, that's a franchise commitment to the guy, so listen. I do think eventually they're going to have to explain to him why this is best for Boston and for him. By the way, I mean, David Ortiz had a pretty good career as a DH in Boston, right, So I don't begrudge him being reluctant to move. But there's going to be a point where they're going to have to convince him to move.
Yeah.
Absolutely, that's there's going to be that big push conversationally whether it's big Poppy. Anybody within their fold that's influential, that really influential, particularly to him, is going to get on board and carry on that conversation.
But for me, you have to do what you think is right. I don't know if that's considered old school or is it's just pragmatic. You got to do.
You're in charge, You're the grown up, You're the adult in a room. At some point, somebody's got to be an adult. Every Nobody likes to be an adult anymore. Nobody wants to make decisions anymore. Sometimes they're tough, and the conversations are difficult.
I get it.
But yes, there's got to be probably some kind of in advanced kind of work done, and I'd say Poppy might be the spearheading that whole thing.
Who knows.
But at the end, if you truly believe the team is better with Bregman a third, then you got to do it. I mean, I can't even imagine going out there and starting the game if I didn't, if you didn't think that was true, I'm trying to quickly trying to think. I had conversations with you know, Schwerber always wanted to catch but of course that wasn't gonna happen. You know that the when I had three outfielders with a more App and Schwerber all wanting and only two spots on a nightly basis, I'd have some really difficult conversations with those three guys because nobody liked it.
Nobody liked it.
But at the end, you have to do what you think is right. Somebody's got a platoon all of a sudden. I'm not a platoon player. I can hit left these, okay, but right now we're not set up that way.
Just be honest.
If you're just honest with whoever you're speaking with, to me, that's the best way for this to go away more quickly, and you're gonna get what you think is the right way to do things, and then you move forward.
Okay, So what do you do with the player who does not want to be there? Nolan Aronato another All star third basement? Yeah, you know, I'm just saying he doesn't want to be in Saint Louis.
He's a pro.
I get that, but let's face it, he did want to be traded. The team told him all winter long, we will accommodate you. Well, they did they thought they had a deal worked out with Houston. He apparently used his no trade clause to turn that down. We don't know that for sure. All we know is that when Nolan met reporters in spring training, he talked about the lies quote unquote that we're told he didn't specify what was out there that was not true. But in any case, you know, you spent the entire off season talking about trading Nolan Aernato and now here he is back with you. So you're Ali Marmol, you're the manager, Joe, you know, and again he's a pro. I get that, but this is something you'd rather have resolved than carrying this. I don't want to call it a dilemma because there's a way out, but this problem into the season.
You're almost describing the dever situation. Had he known about Bregmant and that it did not happen, I mean, or not expected to be traded the whole time, and then it did not happen. So there's all this. It's just it's it's tough, it's difficult, it's it's kind of like a bad faith situation. And even though a professional is going to say the right things, publicly, which you should privately behind.
It's not gonna be the same.
The conversations when nobody's looking by the water cooler, et cetera.
Are going to be completely different.
And all of this stuff, really it's going to tear it the fabric of them, I believe.
I don't see it any other way. It's very difficult for a young any manager, not just a young manager to have to put up with this.
This the daily conversation, the cynical comments, all these kinds of things that are going to occur and just truly don't permit you to advance it and moving forward, et cetera. I mean, I don't even know if to the point if they would eventually release them, which I doubt, and just suck up the money and just let them go somewhere else. Under those circumstances, I believe some kind of a tray is gonna happen. Somebody's gonna get hurt this camp, and or you know, maybe the Yankees would fill it.
I don't know.
But the Cardinal's gonna have to pick up a lot of that money. Whatever that money is out there, the Cardinals are gonna have to pick up a lot of that in order to make it more attractive, somebody, preferably somebody that the pull side of the field's right hand pull side of the field is more amenable.
And I don't even know.
What I'd have to think about that more deeply, but a good team somebody gets hurt spring training number one, number two got to take a lot of that money. Number three pull side, somebody that has an advantageous pull side to a right handed hit or field might take a run at it, eating a third basement or a first basement.
Well, let's stay on our theme of our all star spring training lineup and talk about Vladimir Guerrero. You know, he said a deadline. I wanted a contract extension before spring training starts, otherwise I'm going into free agency, and it did not happen. I'm not surprised it didn't happen. Not necessarily because of the one SODO contract, which I think is an extreme outlier. Very few comps to one Sodo, but because you know, this guy is one year away from free agency and he just had a killer year last season. He's betting on himself, and why not have the choice of twenty nine teams unless your incumbent team blows you away.
Apparently that did not happen.
So Joe, I'm saying you might as well book it right now that Vladimir Guerrero is going to be the biggest.
Name out there at the trade deadline in July.
I can't see them playing this out and thinking they're going to re sign him. And I listen, the Yankees did that with Aaron Judge.
I get it. It's not like it hasn't happened before, but.
They spent a long time and they could never come close to an agreement on what his value is.
And the other thing, Joe and I know this happened with Moan Soto.
It's very difficult for Toronto to tell vlad or anybody else, we will sign you to a long term contract and we will contend for a championship every one of those years. Quite frankly, they're just not there yet. They can't use that as a selling point. This is the team last year that was twenty ninth in the major leagues in Bullpen. I don't know what their plan is. They seem to be scattershot when it comes to what's available in the offseason, or try to sign this guy and we don't well, we'll just go maybe this guy. You know, it's like they're going browsing in a clothing store. You don't go in there thinking what you want. You just say, well, what catches my eye. I don't see a plan, and I think Guerrero is the way forward, the way O'tani was for the Angels in his walk year. But the Angels at least got close enough to think, let's play it out. I'm not sure Toronto's even going to be there in July, so listen, I'm not blaming anybody here. I just think, again, you borrow your word about pragmatism, so I'm looking at it pragmatically that they're probably going to be in a situation where you have to be realistic that are odds of re signing Ladd trying so hard through the winter to meet this deadline didn't work out.
Be realistic, see what you can get right exactly.
I think the decision is way to the trade deadline to get as much as we possibly can, because they're also probably going to bet that you're going to see he had a great year last year, it's probably going to be better this year. To try try to prove a point going into free agent year also, so I think they got it on both sides. They should see the best of him up until the point they have to get rid of him, and who knows. Like you said, if all of a sudden you're in some kind of a race, maybe you hold your cards right there and you're moving forward. Although the thing with the Otani, you could argue that was still not the right thing to do for the Angels and they missed an opportunity to do the Herschel Walker thing and didn't do it.
They did, but I still can't blame him.
They are playing well at that time, were within a I think it was less than a handful of games of the wildcard. Hadn't seen the playoffs in forever, I understood it. Was it the right thing to do. I don't know, but if I'm a player and I'm trying to win, I would not have pulled the plug on that season. As far as team building, You're absolutely right.
Yeah, that's what I would have pulled the plug. But anyway, that's that's exactly what's gonna happen this year with Toronto. I think they're gonna be faced. But that kind of Sophie's choice right there, at the end, they're gonna have to make it. But you're gonna see Vlad play as well as he possibly can. He's gonna be very attractive. And I guess he's gotten in better shape too, correct He's actually done some Yeah, it looks good bodywork, So I mean that that has to be considered also. I know, was he twenty six, twenty seven years of age? You know that particular position. We've talked about it with Alonzo. How the industry have viewsed that position in the steep decline of it. I mean, all this stuff is being calculated within the analytical departments, There's no.
Question about it. But I think you can see come trade time, even if they're like somewhat in it, he's still gonna go. They're not gonna do what the Angels did.
They're gonna they will pull the tra or because if it's an opportunity to rebuild it, they get names that they really think can't put them back on the right path.
I think they would do it.
We're not done yet, we promised you Aaron Judge Juan Sota, and we will get to them right after this quick break on the Book of Joe. Welcome back to the Book of Joe, Podcasts and Joe. I'm not sure if you saw this. The quote from Aaron Judge caught my eye. Of course, you know when he shows up in camp and spring training, just like Derek Jeter, every year it's a news event, you have the press conference. Aaron's a very smart guy. He wants to win as much as anybody. But this one quote really caught my eye. Just it speaks to how much it hurt him for this team to get to the World Series last year and to lose it. Remember that was the first time he got to the World Series, first time for the Yankees, and so nine he said, getting to the dance and losing out definitely is a lot worse than not even getting there. Wow, that caught my attention. I mean, I'd rather take the chance and get in there. I understand the pain of losing the World Series. You want to finish it off. From the Yankees case, they got within three wins of a World Championship, so you get so close to it you can almost taste it. But man, I want the opportunity. There's a lot of guys who had great careers and never even got a chance to play in the World Series. I think it speaks to how much last year's defeating the World Series hurt Aaron Judge.
I agree with you just getting to the dance.
When you look up at the scoreboard, there's no other major league games going on that night, It's just this one game.
And I used to look at that going through the playoffs.
You would look to see how many names are on the board, how many teams are still playing, keep erasing those names, you racing those names till finally just two teams are standing. It went through it both ways, one with the Angels in two thousand and two in the Cubs and sixteen lost with the Rays. It's disheartening. It was tough with losing with the He's had that really harsh weather. World Series in Philadelphia was awful. I mean the worst weather I've ever been on a baseball field. It was more like a bad football day. But you got there and it definitely does something for you for your group. It definitely the Yankees don't need to have their organization catapult it. You know, Uncharted Waters territory. They've been there. I understand that, but especially for a guy that had never been there to that point, I think it should do something. I want to get back there. I want to be there again.
I love this.
It's the only way to approach this season. I don't even know what I was talking to the other day. I was writing some might have been somebody, But you know, I don't even know how many teams go to spring training with the objective of going to the World Series anymore. They just go into spring training hoping they can make the World's playoffs. Because we've talked about it, the percentage of a number of games that takes, not even just get to the playoffs. That seems to be more of the goal, and then that is calculated and adjusted as the seasons in progress. So even the methodology the way people think anymore, it's not even about we're going to go to camp and our goals to go to the World Series and play the last game of the season and win it.
I don't hear that.
I mean I look at columns, I look at read different things, and rare that anybody talks about winning the World Series annually and you should. I mean, of course, it's it's difficult, probably not chances are it's not going to happen, but you got to go believe in that it will so for me, a guy like Judge, that's a taste and he didn't have a great postseason overall. So this hopefully that he's learning from this and you're going to see an even better version of Aaron the next time he gets there. Because yeah, listen, brother, you're one of the last two teams stand and it's pretty cool.
Yeah, I'm glad you said that too about aiming high. You know, Dave Roberts, I think it was two years ago. It might have been three years ago. Now I said exactly that I guarantee. I'm I'm sure we used the word guarantee. But he said we're going to win the World Series, and people looked at him like he had two heads. I mean, you're a major league manager, that should be your goal, especially when you have a really good team, rather than saying, we just want to get in the postse and see what happens.
And there's a lot of that that's going on.
I understand the postseason now, it's got the feel of March madness.
Anything can happen. We pointed this out before that.
I think it's in the last four to five years that the teams that are playing for the World Series birth, the LCS teams in each league average only ninety wins.
Half of them had ninety wins or fewer.
So there's a lot of that thinking in the game now that let's just get in and then we'll see what happens in the postseason. So I'm with you, don't be afraid to say, if you've got a really good team, you believe in your guys, our goals to win the World Series.
It should not be a knock against anybody, by the way.
You know, I hopefully nothing too much is made out of this, But of course Juan Soto talked about he thinks his chances with the Mets over the next fifteen years that's the life of his contract, are better than it would be with the Yankees, and Aaron Judge politely disagreed, as really should right.
I mean, these guys are exactly where they want to be.
They signed long term contracts with eyes wide open, chose where they want to play, and that's exactly what they should say that they play. They chose places where they think they have the best chances to win, if not one championship, multiple championships. But Joe does bring up at least an interesting philosophical question that in a vacuum, and if you're a free agent, and let's not throw terms in here, but you're a free agent you want to bank on. Let's say you're buying a stock and the Mets are the Yankees for the next fifteen years. What stock you're buying Mets are Yankees?
Yeah, I mean, I think the needle's pointing in a different direction, right, And it's just based on the willingness of the owner to spend money. That's really what it comes down to. I think, you know, both organizations are wonderful. I just saw Brian Cashman the other night at our restaurant AVA here in town. Had a great conversation with him. I don't know Stearns that well, and I don't know the owners have not really met the Steinbenders or Cohen. But the willingness to spend money, just like in Los Angeles, I guess the needle is always going to point in that direction.
That's that's the difference.
We're not arguing whether there's better baseball acumen on either side, or there's better baseball people on either side. That's not the question. The question is who's willing to spend more money in order to achieve this particular thing. And I keep bring about Cohen and it's just like I guess, when he sees a piece of art that he loves, he buys it regardless of the price. So when he sees a Soto that he likes, he buys it regardless of the price. So I think therein lies the difference, the fact that he's not worried about these these ceilings, the artificial glass ceiling of the baseball regarding the number of amount of money you could spend. He's willing to go past that. So that's that's the difference. There's no, that's the only difference for me. The Yankees have this this method that they've done for a long time, so they're going to point to that, the tradition, the stripes, the number of penance, their their alumni, all these people show up. But it's it's pretty, it's formidable. On the other hand, the Mets only have that one, and they do. They have a nice group of traditionally based former players.
But it's different.
So the Mets in order to overcome them, there's they have one key ingredient, and regardless of how wealthy the Steinbrunners are this dude, this dude is you know that he's that wealthy. So there's the difference maker and that's what he's talking about. And that's why the needle for the next fifteen years has to point and if money really matters, the needles to point in his direction.
Yeah, and it does matter, we know that, right. I mean, it does not guarantee anything, but it does improve your chances. And you look at you know, top payroll teams recently, and I know we had a World Series just a couple of years ago with Arizona and Texas, but really the big boys are getting to the World Series for the most part.
It doesn't prove your chances.
Guarantees nothing, because we're talking about fifteen years and Joe, you know how much things can change. And if that's a long that's an eon in baseball fifteen years. And think about how many World Series titles the Yankees and Mets have combined in the last fifteen years.
You know what that number is?
Uh? Yeah, the zero Yeah, right, So no guarantees, but I get it. But you made an excellent point too. I think that's what this is about, the fact that it's even a debate right now is very interesting to me because it would always be the Yankees, right, Who's been more sustainable over a longer period of time as a World Series capable team than the New York Yankees? Right? Nobody, So historically, of course, you would say Yankees. But if you look at the last four years, the Mets continue to outspend the New York Yankees, and they're just now getting the infrastructure that might allow them to be something they've never been in the franchise's history, and that is a sustainable winner. They've never been that kind of a team that's going to contend for a playoff spot or at least a pennant year after year after year. It seems like seems like that they're getting to that point. So I can see how if you're Juan Soto, if you're a Mets fan, you can say that the return on investment in the next fifteen years will be larger for the Mets. Now, I'm not saying that it is. What I'm saying is that that was never a discussion before. They have enough resources now and will to be great to make that at least a very interesting question.
One more point I.
Read in the post that Cohen spoke about how much fun and awesome was to be in the playoffs last year, and the daily outcome was such an event for him every day. Now here's the guy that's got a zillion dollars, right, and he's he's getting jacked up about a baseball game in playoff weather, right, So and he loved it.
I mean he spoke about that. Probably I don't.
I would imagine any any checking account he has does not matter or is not nearly as interesting as one playoff game or a World Series game would be to him in his life now and moving forward.
So that's part of it.
Also, understand that he's not he's not gonna he's not going to make decisions based on what most other all other organizations are making them on.
It's as pragmatic as if hit our knees is, we're going to break the bank? Could we afford to do this? He doesn't.
He doesn't ask himself that question. I love this piece of art. I wanted I love playing in the playoffs? How do we get there?
I want to get to the World Series? What does that mean when we do? And he's going to fulfill that? That's the danger to everybody else.
Yeah, I will say, you're right. I mean that is I don't think any other owner. Maybe the Dodgers are close to it with the Gudheind group. But that's an advantage. There's no question that there really is no budget that as he said, I can finance it. He didn't say we, he said I can finance it. That's a huge advantage. And there's the will again to be great, not just to get into the postseason, but to win a World Series. You have to admire that as well. I was there for that, by the way, Joe, and you're absolutely right. He was very I don't want to say emotional, but you could tell he was jacked up by the postseason environment, his first time really getting that deep into the postseason, feeling what it was like on a day to day basis, and he actually said it was one of the highlights of his life. I mean, this guy, as you mentioned, he's worth more than twenty billion dollars. I'm sure he's made a lot of huge deals that would cause him to bust out the champagne. But there's nothing like in for a guy, especially who grew up a Mets fan. You know what it's like Joe to live that dream of going deep into the postseason. As that thing builds.
Nothing like it.
I'm telling you the socia and I Mike and isis you know, stand there and talk, but behind the batting cage.
And we get later in the season. We're doing pretty good.
And the first time I said, well, it smells like football weather around here, and he says, no, no, no, it smells like playoff weather.
He corrected me, and it was absolutely right.
When you get to that time of the hear come September, and September always provides its own energies. When you get to September and you got an absolute shot, it's different. Man, if you've been tired up and like to talk about the dog days of August, they go away. Here comes September and here September just got this bucket full of energy. It's going to give to you if you're in, if you're in the hunt. So it's it's totally different. It smells different, it tastes different, the light looks different. When you wake up, it's different. You're just you're so in tune to the day and your objective is to get You've got to get to the playoffs. You got to qualify, and then after that just let's let's take it all the way and that's all you have to That's how you think, and that's what it feels like. It's different. So I understand where he was coming from. When we went and got to our first playoff with the Angels in two thousand and two. We're in Texas and we had struggle clinching this thing.
We finally did.
Man, I broke down. It was that important to me in two thousand and two. Have you been a lifer with the Angels from seventy six basically to two thousand.
And two, doing a whole bunch of different jobs. It was that powerful to me at that particular moment. So I get it. It's true.
And here's a guy that, like you could argue, has gotten everything in life, and this resonates even more loudly than a lot of other wonderful things that have happened to him and his family.
That is so cool the way you explain that, especially going through that first time in two thousand and two.
But we'll worry about that another day.
Right now, Joe, let's take advantage of the leisurely pace of spring training, right how great is it now? To me, it's like when you watch golf from Hawaii with a PGA tour starts off in Hawaii in January and you're shoveling your driveway. You come in and watch the beautiful scenery. Watching spring training games in March is is just a pleasure.
Man.
The games might not be that artistically great, but just the idea of baseball and the sunshine, palm trees, cacti, whatever, it's so glad to have the game back.
Never gets old, never got old. The thing from our perspective, being a member of the staff, you know, you know what's going on out there, you know who's taking a slow your nose on the team, and you know other people you have to really keep a close eye on regarding like the different maybe the different things you've laid down there. Physically, we got them get better at this, this and this. Who's been working with him. They just did it this morning. He said, he looked really good.
You go out there.
Maybe it was a jumps and leaves at first base. Maybe it's a catcher blocking the ball in a dirt. Maybe it's a hitter controlling the strikes some better. Whatever it might be, so that's what you're in tune too.
During the game.
It's not the game itself, it's not the outcome. It's what you've been working on that morning specifically, and then as a group, and then individually if this is getting done or not, that's the part that's fascinating to us, to me. And then, like you said, it's more of a leisure pace. You're not worried about winning or losing at all. You're worried about, like I said, getting things done, getting things in order, that you're seeing progress through the camp as you get to the first game of the season.
For me, it was like down to the last the last week.
I wanted to play it more straight up, and I would tell the guys that in advance, players go more deeply. They didn't have to play nine innings. I just wanted them to consistently go more deeply into the game, get a couple more at bats, that kind of a thing. But it was like this slow dance. It's a slow dance, but it's a necessary slow dance. People say it's too long. It is not too long. Pitchers need all that time, position players need. I don't care where they've been working out. I don't care how many reps they did before they got there.
They need all that.
Time and it needs to happen slowly. It's like a great backswing. The more more slowly you do that, probably the better contact you're going to make. And it makes a difference before that first game. Everybody. You want to get out of spring training healthy. That's always the main go.
Yeah, it's one of my favorite times a year. I love the quietude of it.
I love watching the game being taught, which you really don't get, you know, behind the curtain too often, but in spring training you can. And next time on our podcast, Joe, I want to ask you about some of the cool things I saw what the Mets are doing with their catching. I mean, you think like there's nothing new that can be taught about this game. It's been around for so long and how you should play it. Yet every year at least when I go around, I learned something, see something that's different. The quest to quote unquote master this game never does. And I'm always partial to the instructors and coaches and see how they are instructing these supremely talented people to be the best version of themselves. It's really cool stuff. Be able to witness that up front. In the meantime, Joe, we're going to talk about the end of this podcast, this edition to the Book of Joe. So what do you got to take us home today?
Well, you know, I knew, I felt we're going to go in this direction the beginning part of spring training, and I already alluded to it. The big part for me as a manager was always the address going into it. So I'm going to quickly read off the six points I made going into the twenty sixteen spring training with the Cubs.
It's in our book.
It's the I did it on my good Notes app on my iPad, and it's so great because you could do what erase it. It kind of looks like a work of art when you get done. But I keep all my stuff. Obviously, I've kept stuff from the nineteen eighties. So going into spring training twenty sixteen, I had six points that I started with, and of course there's other, but I'm just going to go with six. Number one was to embrace the target. We had never won anything after fifteen, and everybody's expecting us to go to the World Series and win it that year. Wow, how does that happen. So I wanted to make sure we didn't run away from the pressure. Embrace the target. And number two, we all have to set aside our personal agendas. This has got to be about us. If it's about you, man, it ain't gonna work. So I wanted to make sure that we're all on the same page regarding that. And then number three dovetailed all off of that.
All do our jobs. Do your job.
Everybody always wants to everybody else what to do. I want, I want cross pollination with the coaching staff, the players. Make sure you get your stuff done. If we you know, if you see something wrong, more than like when it comes down to attitude and you have some you have some cachet.
Of course, gope and talk to the player.
But we all got our jobs to do and know that we are at number four, know that we are not perfect, but we can't be present.
You got to shake it off.
You've got to turn the page. You got to move on the present. Tense rocks, anxiety lives in the future. You got to stay right there. That was a big part of that message. And number five, and this is something I try to get the angels to understand. We are our own little planet. I mean, in today's world, everybody wants to be like everybody else. If you look at baseball in general, we're gonna we're gonna get to that. In my last I add at number seven. But we're our own little planet, and so we have to rotate, revolve around the World Series trophy, and we got to do what we think is right and not worry about what everybody else is doing.
And that got to number six. Rotate around the same set of goals. All of this stuff.
Those are the six talking points I use for that first meeting. And then you talked about big government. You just mentioned it with the uh that there's at least this number of at least a number of extra people involved, analysts, et cetera, all these different dudes that are part of this this first meeting, compared to the number of players and coaches or whatever.
But it's all part of big government.
These front these these front office staffs have gotten so large, and I'm here to tell you there's there's some waste involved in that. They don't need that many guys there. Sometimes they start they walk over each other's territory, so it's become a it's become almost like an exercise, and who could have the bigger front office or baseball operations department. And I'm here to tell you a lot of it's redundant and a lot of it's not. It's really not necessary. I'd rather spend my player my money on players like uh Bragman as opposed to I don't know how many new analytical dudes. So anyway, that's part of it. It's it's got that part's gotten too large. Trust your guys, trust your players, understand when they in a big moment. Shohil Tawny doesn't need a whole lot of information from anybody. He just needs to be healthy and be left alone. So those are my six and I just do a number seven.
That's so cool. Of course, twenty sixteen.
We all know how that wound up a special, special year for you in the Chicago Cubs, but it's important to remember how it began with that kind of messaging.
Cool stuff, Joe, Thanks Tommy way to set it up.
That's I envy you.
I do.
I mean, because you've described it really well. Going to spring training on a daily basis, I would just smile. The only thing wrong about spring training is Pallen, whether you're here or in Arizona or calif or in Florida.
Oh my god, oak trees are.
Blue blossoming everywhere, Juniper, all these different little bushes.
It's awful.
So it's the hay fever time of the year.
That's the only bad part about it.
Nothing great was ever at ty without some sacrifice. Joe, that's a small price for.
That kind of bliss.
Thanks reminding me. Man.
We'll see you next time, Joe, We do.
Thank you.
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