The Book of Joe podcast is a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to another episode of the Book of Joe podcast. Of course it's the same name as the book, the actual book, The Book of Joe, written by me, Tom Verducci of Fox Sports, MLB Network and Sports Illustrated, and of course Joe Madden, three time Major League Manager of the Year. How are you doing, Joe? I'm doing great. How about yourself, buddy? Got a little wet down there right here? Yeah? How about that trip postseason trip to Dodger Stadium and Petco Park and I got rained on in both places. But you know what, that's the way this postseason has gone, Joe. I mean, we're talking about Dodgers went home, Braves went home, Mets went home. All these teams winning more than a hundred games are now watching the postseason. So let me start there, because obviously, you were one of the teams in the last twenty one years that won a championship and did not repeat. The Braves are the latest. I mean, do you see anything any pattern here, Joe? Why it is more difficult to repeat as a World Series champion than it's ever been since the World Series began there's so many hurdles. There's so many hurdles. When the World Series began, I mean it was a national leg in America League. You win your league and you go play seven games and go home. Um, just even the thought of it, if you have to go through the wild Card round then to the DSCS and of course the World Series. I don't think people process that well enough. It's it's hard, it's it's mentally difficult. It's physically difficult. Forty games in spring training, one sixty two, and then you've got to go ahead and compete again. Um, you know, when you're not really feeling the greatest, more than likely there's probably a lot of bumps and bruises. Uh, there's the mental component to it. And again, like I've talked to you about, see what first time eyes feel, the first time passion, all these things play into it. And I think it's a bad assumption to think that it's kind of like because you've been good the year before, your should be favored to do it again. I almost think that, like like it's indicating that's put you on the on the list of probably not going to repeat again. Um, it's just not easy and last point. Please realize, folks, that the other team were professionals also, and I think we underestimate or we don't give enough credit to the group that's ascending to so all these things could conspire to make it difficult to repeat. Yeah, I mean, listen, you know as well as anybody, the margin of victory is so small, But that also means the narrow of defeat. The margin of defeat is so narrow as well. I think about the home run hobby bias. It's in the basket to beat Johnny Quato, to survive the sixteen n l DS for the Cubs. And you think about Max Freed starting Game one for the Braves. He's, you know, battling the flu a little bit, just wasn't the same kind of picture that he had been just wasn't feeling great. These things happen in the postseason. Yeah, I mean, there's a there's another layer to this that it's hard to describe it and it is feel And I know I get to be scoffed at by those but um that those don't understand, but it's true. I mean there's a certain vibe that that's attached to a club that's been doing well, look at the Phillies right now. Uh and and and the and the vibe they got going on, and the Padres too. They both they're writing a high. You know, they both won very difficult series to get that next round, and it had a lot to do with their success um and and the potential for upcoming success. They believe in themselves, their confidences up and I also believe I haven't mentioned this yet, but when you bang bang bang to get to the playoffs, and it's really difficult, and it's and I know this happened to the two thousand and two Angels. Man, we have not done it before. So you get to that, to the to the door there and even just a clinch to clinch to get into it. It's really that, to me, is probably the most pressurized moment, just to get there if you haven't done it before, meaning the playoffs, and then what you get in the playoffs, you're almost able to chill just a little bit relaxed. We kindly, we finally got there. And it's it's hard to evaluate what that means to other than the fact that I think it's a positive. So you get to relax. We finally got there. We're in we're in the door now, which could we could just kind of relax and play. I think you saw that with the Phillies. I think you saw that with the the Padres too, So it's kind of interesting. Um, the how difficult it is to get there is one thing, and maybe you look like you're pressing towards the end of the season. Here comes the playoffs. Different group. Yeah, really good points. And that brings me to the other side of the coin, which is the Dodgers. Okay, I think the Dodgers have to really re evaluate how they go about playing these postseason games. You know, it's very standard procedure for them to get their starting pitcher out of there as quickly as possible. Essentially third time around. We saw that with Tyler Anderson pitching a really good game in Game four of the n LDS, he's out, the bullpen carousel starts again. They did this every single game. On the other side, you've got Bob Melvine with the Padres, where he allowed his three starting pitchers Darvish Snell must grove to pitch to the top of the Dodger lineup, and that's not an ordinary top of the Dodger lineup. You're talking about Bets Turner Freeman. He allowed them to pitch to the top of the lineup every game that they won Games two, three, and four. And now if you go back and you look at the innings pitch by starting starting pitchers this year, well, of the five and the top six, all of them are in the final five. In terms of still standing in the playoffs structure. You know Astro's Guardians, Yankees, Padres, Phillies, They're all there because they don't go to that bullpen every night early. So Jody would believe that that had a lot to do with how the Dodgers went out. I mean, maybe they just went to that carousel too quickly, too early. Well, yeah, I over the course of a hundred sixty two games, I understand the process, I think to a certain extent. But I I talked to you about before. I'm into trends, and the trend is the playoffs. It's different. It's just different in the playoffs, and you can't rely on the large sample size all the time. So yeah, I think maybe moving forward they may reevaluate it. Again, I'm not smart enough to know that if my picture is pitching, well, it's time to take him out. Um, if I'm watching this stuff is good. You watch the reaction of the hitter at that particular moment um. You can see late on on fast way, you can see break a ball is actually getting better command confidence. When he comes in after the inning, when he comes into the dugout, you can see how he walks in. You can watch him sitting there. There's different things you're gonna look at other than just a pitch count number or the inning that we're in. Um, all this stuff should matter. It does matter, and some groups like to be more sterile. UM. And with that, and when you're making decisions just based on those numbers, I understand from your perspective, whoever it's doing it, it's somewhat easier and it's more definable and it doesn't require feel, experience, wisdom, whatever, because it's hard to evaluate those kind of things. But I appreciate what Dusty does and I appreciate with bow Mill has done. Now listen, I think David has done a wonderful job. I'm a big fan of Dave Roberts also, But it's just again, organizational philosophies are different. Yeah, how about this matchups here in the NLCS of Managers. You've got Rob Thompson, baseball lifer, right, I think he's been the game about thirty seven years. Gets his first opportunity to be a big league manager this year when the Phillies fired Joe Girardi after a two and twenty nine start. You mentioned Bob Melvin. He's been around a long time. I've always thought he's done a great job with bullpen usage. He actually has managed the fourth most number of games of anybody who has not one a pennant, and now he's four wins away from getting there. Uh, Joe, as someone who took a long time to get your first big league job, and we talked about this a lot in the book. You were ready for it at that age, at the age of fifty two, and the struggle to get there was part of the really the charm of being in the game. But how about those two guys sitting there. What you feel for those two guys getting their first chance to go to a world Aries couldn't be happy? Or First of all, I'm happy for Robbie that he got that job and they made it officially. Absolutely deserves the opportunity. I was very pleased that it worked out that way for him. I don't know Robbie well just to say hi and h conversation, but I've watched them work with the Yankees. I know the respect that his players the teammates have for him and other coaches in the game. So it could not be happier for the man and boat. Mel and I have always communicated. I think he does a great job. Actually, I think I told Hendrow at one Thomas and when you fire me, you should hire Bob Melvin. I think I told him that specifically. I like the way he goes about his business. Um, yeah, he's on top of things, there's no question about it. When it comes to bullpen usage. I think I know he communicates and relates well with his group, so I'm a big fan of his. Also, at both these guys, you wish them nothing but the best, And you're right, I mean you wait, Um, Bobby didn't have to wait as long as I did or Robbie has. But when you wait that long, you should feel um convicted and what you believe in what you want to say to your guys. There's no real gray areas left and you're not searching. You've You've done these kind of things before. Maybe not on the major league level, but you have the experience of doing them before. I love that. By the way, quick story on Rob Thompson. Of course, he was with the Yankees for many years. He would run their spring trainings every year. Um and he was really influenced by George Steinbrenner when it comes to attention to detail. And he told a great story that uh, Steinbrenner would take him to Tampa Bay Lightning games and you pick him up at the minor league complex. And every time that George would pick him up, he as he's driving out of the parking lot, he would notice certain cars that were backed into their spots and he would always ask Rob Thompson, whose car is that? Whose car is that? And Rob said, why do you want to know? You know whose car that is? He said, because the guys who back into their spots are the ones who are not hurried to get out of work. Unless sure, I want those kind of guys working for me. He didn't miss the thing the boss, Hey, when we get back. Once I saw this play happened, I knew I had to ask Joe Madden about it. I can't believe it goes on in the major leagues, and I want to get his take on it. You'll want to hear this when we get back to the Book of Joe. Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast with Tom Berducci and Joe Madden and Joe. The play that I referenced earlier, it reminds me of Little League first and third, where the runner in this case, it was Juan Sotos literally dancing into second base without a play being made on him. Now, I get it. It's first and third, there's two strikes on the battery, there's two outs to go. Ahead run is at third base. You don't want a middle infield to vacate his position, open up a hole on the groundball, and you lose the game because you're defending the runner at first and allowing the run around third to score. I get it, but it's the big leagues. There has to be a way to defend that play without giving up that base so freely. And that base, by the way, was huge because it became a two run lead for that San Diego bullpen rather than a one run game. And it was game over with Juan Soto being allowed and I mean allowed to take second base and I went back and I asked some of the people with the Padres. It turns out the Dodgers did not defend that play the entire season, so the Padres had free reign to run Soto knowing that there's not even a chance they're going to put on a play. Now, if you were on a play, a defensive play against that play at all during the season, at least you create some doubt in your mind on the Padres side, and maybe Soto doesn't run, or at least you think about it. But to me, Joe should never happen in the big leagues where there's a hundred percent chance of anything, And this was a hud that the second can't run was going to move up for free into scoring position. So I want to hear your take about this well. In spring training, I do this all the time we go through that particular play, and easy concept is early in the game, Early in the game, you're trying to stay out of a big inning, that first and third situation. Um, yes, you go ahead and your throw through you try to get an out. I'll take down at second base and even give them a run under those circumstances to avoid a beginning so that's uh, that's the exactly how we describe it during camp. And UM, so we have a specific play design for that we're gonna throw through as opposed to maybe arm fake to to third or just holding onto the ball completely. There's other plays that have been done in the past, but it's really been reduced to those two specific things are simple things. The other one is the latter part of the game. One of the things, UM, I really want them to be able to do under those circumstances is earned the run from third base, earn it by half. They hit the ball, they have to put it in play. They got to move the baseball, as opposed to have the understop trying to steal the run that way, possibly a bad throw by the catcher. Again, who's who's the hitter, who's the runner at first? How quick is the picture to the plate. All these things are a factor in this particular moment. So for me, I'm more than likely not thrown through, even though and I agree with you that you do know and I've had I've been in this position where, um, even though we're not gonna throw I know now that winning run is going to get the second base and that's that bothers me. It bothers me. But that's a chance you may have to take, or you do may you may take, uh in order to not have them square that other run by not even having to move the baseball. So there's different ways of looking at it. I think that's what we saw right there. I um, I don't even know if I saw all last year, uh, when you did throw through, when we did throw through the last couple of years, that there was even attempt to try to steal home plate on the throw through the second base. There's the other things you can do with the run right third bluffs so that the second basement, shure stuff come into ensure the fact that the runners steal second base. So it's a long convoluted answer. Early in the game, I'm throwing through the latter part of the game, but it's a one run lead, I may choose to not throw too because they want them to earn the run. Yeah, it's it's all as you said, there are many variables to it. But I can tell anybody who's going to be watching the NLCS if that situation occurs with the Phillies they're throwing through. I talked to j t real motto about this. He's like me, he doesn't think you should allow free bases in the major leagues. He said, we're essentially playing a game of catch between me and the middle infielder. You tell me we can't execute two throws before that runner comes in. Now, you do take a risk. I get that, um. But as they run the play, they have the second baseman usually covering. He comes into the grass or near the grass, towards the first base side of second base, so he's cutting the distance between first base and the unner well obviously keeping an eye on third. So the way the Phillies runn it is that's not a free base. I think that at least puts doubt in the Padres mind that if they're in that situation, they'd be better prepared, that the Phillies may defend that runner going to second base. That it's not a toll free base. And for me, Joe, anything in this game where you create doubt in your opponent, I'm all for it. Yeah. The other thing is, I mean with that um, the runner at third base has to be aggressive, and that's where the other play comes into. With the full arm fake throw the third and you've got to know you're running a third There's times you will designate before a series begin, we're going to go after a particular runner because we know sometimes you can fall asleep or sometimes he gets overly aggressive. So there's so many different ways to evaluate that. And furthermore, real Mudo, just by the way he spoke to you, is very confident that he can complete that place. Some guys aren't as confident. The other thing is, who's the really guy who's throwing the ball back to the plate. What does his arm look like? And then furthermore, I mean the picture's time to the plate. All this stuff matters, um, so you have to again it's it's not just one size fits all. For me, I would evaluate all these things before I decide. But overarching, early in the game, we're gonna get out of the beginning ladder part of the game. They have to earn the run. Yeah, and at the risk of getting a little bit deeper into the defensive positioning weeds. I had to bring this up. It didn't decide the game, but it was early in the game, the deciding game the Padres won. Freddie Freeman is batting with Mookie on third base, and trade Turner on second. Early in the game scoreless game, the Padres have Will Myers the first baseman, playing in on the grass. I'm Freddie Freeman. I didn't get that at all. And Freddie of course hits the ground ball that if if Myers is playing back one run scores instead playing up, he can't get to it. It goes buy him for a double two run score. I checked with some people with the Padres and there was a lot of eye rolling. They realized that that was a mistake. That was just not good defensive positioning that early in the game. There's there's no other way to look at it. Will as a first baseman, uh in the latter part of his career, right out of love Will, but there's times I'm sure that he really does need to be directed that that, to me is definitely on the player, but it's also that's got to come from the bench to somebody specifically in charge of positioning for infield defense per per batter, and I was in charge of that at some point. It's tedious, man, You've got to stay on top of it. You can't fall asleep, you can't start watching the ball. What happens sometimes you start watching the baseball, and when you're coaching, you cannot follow the ball. You're watching anything but the ball. When when the when that moment occurs when the pitch is being thrown. So I would as a hitting coach, I'd never watched the ball as a if I'm as a catching coach, I'm not watching the ball in field instructor, I gotta get to my defenders before the ball is thrown. So you can't watch the ball. You gotta watch everything else. And finally, one more on defensive positioning. This involves something and you're Bailey Wick as you like to say, catching. Okay, the Padres are they're big on not using the one knee stance behind the plate. Francisco Savelli it was hired this year as they're catching instructor. He told Aaron Nola Austin Nola, Rather, you're not doing it anymore. He tried it last year. Nola did. It didn't work well. He had some leg injuries, Uh, severely. Big proponent of using the old school way behind a disk. Joe, there's been a lot of debate about catching your You have such a history with instructing and playing the position. What's your take on the one knee stands. We see a lot of teams use I don't like it, um i Uh. As a catcher, um I would always instruct my catcher as you can go to one knee with less than two strikes and nobody on base. That was always the thing because if you just needed a rest, it was more from a rest perspective, not being up on your in your stance all the time. So with less than two strikes, it doesn't have to ball block the ball, and with nobody on base, you don't have to block the ball. Go ahead and chill. Remember Tony Painia used to literally sit on his butt uh to get a ball down in the strikes one. And sometimes that's another reason. If a picture just can't get the ball down, I would ask my guys to sit or get to one knee like that just to force him down in the strike zone. Now I'm gonna defend this too in a sense, because I've seen guys block pitches that are starting on one knee that I didn't think they can do. I really didn't. I I was baffled, and I'm impressed by the technique that's evolved for the group that has learned how to catch off of one knee. So I thought that wouldn't happen. It has happened. I'll defend that. The part that I think is difficult, the bad habit occurs from throwing. When you get to one knee with a runner on base, sometimes you can it can become more problematic to just receive the ball and throw it um your your footwork can get screwed up unless the pitch is in a perfect spot. So, uh, last point too, And nobody's talking about this. I can't believe the Empires will let them get away with it. This this framing component, where where the where the glo is moving so much before And I'm watching the look some of the games on team and you see guys pull balls that I knew back in the day, you'd never get that call. I would prefer umpires and say, hey, listen, stop pulling pitches. You're not getting anything. Now you're gonna You're gonna hear from the the fact that these guys are so scrutinized with an obvious box painted on the television screen. But if I'm an umpire, I would tell guys stop pulling that, stop pulling those pitches on me. Man you're not going to get them. And I used to be a part of the conversation back then when this wasn't a scrutinize. If they thought you were pulling framing uh too much, too obviously, then you would get reprimanded by the umpire. So um, I prefer tried and true. Absolutely, I'm okay with one knee less than two strikes nobody on base to catch a break or to get the ball down in the strike zone. They're doing it right now. For the elephant kind of thing where they're trying to they move the gloves so much prior to the pitch being thrown that it's easier to do that from one knee way that that that that glove hand, the receiving hand can move more really based on that particular stance as a post to a more conventional stance. It's all tied together. I preferred the traditional, but there are times I'm okay with one ny good stuff. Joe. Hey, when we get back with the Book of Joe podcast, I want to ask Joe about what it's like actually being in the dugout for a postseason game when, as he said, he said this in our book, it's kind of like the Starship Enterprise taken off. The speed of the game down there in the dugout, especially in the postseason, Well, it's a lot faster than you might think. We'll dive into that next Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast, And I mentioned Joe the speed of the game. We talked about the speed of the game, maybe velocity pitchers, foot, speed runners, ball coming off the bat. But how about for a manager, did you feel that running postseason games, Um, that the game was a little bit different given everything at stake and some of these crowds, especially when you're on the road. Yeah, you just well you have to be on top of it even more. Um, you know, you have to make maybe decisions then that you wouldn't normally make during the season. You'll be more tolerant or patient during the season, where the playoffs you're less tolerant, less patient. Um. Yeah, it's when you're sitting up at that bird's eye level looking down, everything appears to be so slow, but it is, like we talked about, it is like when the Starship takes off and you get that blur in its wake, beause it moves away. In the the old star Trek show, it's like that, and so for me, that's why you got to play the game before the game. That's for me. When you've never done it before you're asked to do it, I don't get it. I mean, I've needed all these years of experience in order to process and slow the game down in those moments regular season. Then it gets even more magnified in the postseason. But it comes down to your process and again, your preparation for me before the game permits me to slow the game down in game. I'll tell you when it gets crazy is in a National league game, uh, in a National a playoff game, when you really have to keep an eye in your picture as you're trying to move things around. To the point the time with I brought Chapman and I can't remember the game against the Dodgers what number it was, but I brought him in early, and I counted the hitters through and he's going to be eight up the next inning. So I thought he gets through this intem he could use him the next inning also, But here it comes a bases loaded, two out situation and here's his that bad. I think we were tieder down or up by one run. Something like that. Anyway, I had to go to Montero and I had to take him out of the game. But I've done all my counting. I was right about that. But the and he got extended Montero. It's a two strike grand Slam for two of us um So the National League preparation of the LASH League game under these circumstances, to me, it was more difficult than the American League game because you don't have to keep it on your picture batting. Yes, you always are in advance. You're always in advance of every moment, and that's something you have to think about before the inning begins. You're thinking about the pitfalls. That's interesting to think about the pitfall. Yeah, you talked about Montero. If Montero doesn't come through there, you're in a tie game and your closers there's no more and that's that's just you have to make that decision right there. And again, you did to do process leading into that moment. You counted it out. It was unlikely that he was gonna come up, that anybody did. And then there's no way you're gonna let him hit right there in a thie game just to um permit him to go back out there and pitch. So you roll the dice O two breaking ball slider cutter from Blunton too, Migan. I'll tell you what, that's one of the loudest home runs I've heard in that ballpark. Yeah, that was amazing. And speaking of loud, the seventh inning at Petco Park in Game four in the NLDS was crazy loud. Let me tell you, But I want to go to where it started, Joe. It was a leadoff walk with a three nothing lead, Tommy Kinley on the mound for the Dodgers. I don't know about you, but I feel like watching these postseason games that a leadoff walk it doesn't start a rally. It is a rally. It's it just seems to ben incredible momentum changer. It feels like in these postseason games, you give a team a base, it's gonna come back and bite you. So, you know, do you feel sometimes that you do have to be quicker to get a picture out. I know there's a three batter minimum roll, so you're not gonna take them out after one batter. You can't do it. But um, the idea that you have to kind of stave momentum as quickly as possible in the postseason game. How about that. That's why it's harder to nail it down with all these relief pitchers because you have to face three hitters. I was talking about that. I think we talked about that earlier. This this matchup component the latter part of the game. Uh, theoretically back in the day, not bad. I mean if I have this nice ing and yang rightings and lefties can work with, and you're working against the lineup that they're not going to pinch it for, and if you know they're gonna pinch it for, that's where utilize your reverse split. Guy. I mean, there's all these different things that you think about, uh in advance, but right now, to nail down that many innings when the guy's got to phase three, you gotta have some really good relief I think, um, listen, I've had some good pens. I've got some good guys. But it's really an unnerving thought to think that you have to nail down the sixth, seventh, eighth, and ninth on an on a continual basis. Where these guys, and again we've talked about it, really pictures are health at this impossible standard of being perfect having to be perfect all the time. So all this stuff in consideration, Man, it's hard to match it up. And I agree with you. A walk in late in the game, especially in a playoff game, is a rally. You're absolutely correct. There's a different mindset that it evolves around that as opposed to be hit. From the pictures perspective, I lost the plate all of a sudden, we got to runder the manager. Everybody starts scumming in the dugout and it's felt everywhere. And speaking of the Phillies, by the way um they got they have a couple of players that you're very familiar with managing them, Kylischwarber, Brandon Marsh. I look at this Phillies team. I don't know, and just maybe because they're winning five postseason games so far, but the mix of players there seems to be very good. I think there is a little bit of vibe of the Cubs for me with this position player group. Um, but give me an insight on guys like Schwarber and Marsh and and a fan watching them on TV here they can understand a little bit more about them other than that they're really good players. Castiano. Snicky is another one. I had Nikki to love Nikki. Yeah that's right, Yeah, okay, let me just use um Schwerber as like the hood ornament here, like the old mirk that was sticking out proudly as the car drove down the street. He's just fearless. Um, watch him, watch him. Uh, he's got a really I want the word is the right word? Is not casual, A relaxed nont Uh. There's no tension whatsoever in his in his approach, and I think that rubs off on the rest of the group, even some of the guys that have been there for a while. Um. I think that it starts with Schwerbs. Uh. I don't know. Marshy Brandon, in spite of his youth, is really a present, tense guy. He's able, like he'll punch out of punch out, but that's going to bother the next step back. If he makes a mistake in the field, that's not going to bother the next play. He has a fearlessness about his game also that I love. And Nikki is one of the most confident players I've ever been around. Uh. Nikki would come up to me before every game and say happy opening day every day he'd come up to me. It never got old. And the thing about Nick. If Nick gets hot, which he seems to be doing right now, and this he's not an analytical movement because he's going after that first pitch a lot, and it doesn't have to be a strike. He starts missing outfielders. The ball goes line gap gap line when he hits it. So you've got three fearless players, three guys that I I They don't over analyze it, they don't take it too deeply. They do their work. They're great workers, but they definitely live in a moment. And I think the rest of that group is doing the same thing from them. By the way, I'm glad you brought up hood ornaments. What happened to hood ornaments? And I'm not talking about you know, the Roles of Roys is probably the most famous one. He didn't have to be a luxury car to have a hood ornament back in a day, right, No, my my bell, there's got a really groovy looking like jet kind of a thing on the front of it. I love that. I mean, I've got an old beamer with the old beamer little emblem on the I love emblems. I love ornaments on on vehicles. I just had my U. S. S pickup redone and the guy wanted to know who did a great job in Phoenix. Mark wanted to know, Um, do you want me to put the emblems back? And I said, of course I do. Don't change anything, don't take anything off this thing. I think that's the beauty of the car. I love all of that. And you're right, but I remember the mirk. The mirk had that the dude with the helmet with there was that pontiac sticking out probably on the on the dude with the helmet. Yeah, yeah, right exactly. It was uh yeah, I love that stuff. I think cars miss We're missing the boat with our vehicles anymore. I really I don't like that. Yeah, even those old oldsmobiles. A hood ornament, Well how about the grill and I sticking up out of my fifty nine El Camino. The grill on that it is just an intricate grill, and and it's all this little details, and it's it's chrome, which I like. I like chrome over plastic any day of the week. I want a real bumper that if you you know, five miles and already hit something. It just laughs at it, it doesn't crumble. I mean, we've gotten away from all the really cool things about cars. I love the chrome, I love the two tone paint um, I love the the interiors being uh different, the herring bone whatever. I miss all that stuff. Cool stuff. Well, the next time we talked, Joe, we'll talk about a couple of hood ornaments in the NLCS Manny Machado and Bryce Harper. How about those two guys thirty years old, they were free agents at the same time. They both signed with teams that hadn't won in at least six years. I'm talking about a winning season Padres in their case, I've never won a World Series. Philly has been a long time for them, going back to oh eight. I can't wait to see those two guys match up, Machado and Harper. So, without giving anything away, here, is there a team you like in that series? In this and I'm I like, I mean, you've met you, darbish is pitching and I've still been I've been texting with you lately. I love you, Darbish. Um the other side, I probably have a little bit more invested on the Philly side, including like Bow and all those guys Larry Boa, Charlie Manuel, the guys that I really like their Sammy Folds the GM that's another guy. So I mean, I played that game internally a little bit, but I think it's gonna be very entertaining. I do. I've got to seeing with first time I was dealing with first time passion groups. You're gonna see all odd efforts every night. You're gonna see um, some some guys like like what Grisham has been doing is not supposed to be doing that all of a sudden he gets hot. You're gonna see that again. It should be a fascinating series. Both managers, I think, are going to manage the game and not be overtly influenced by numbers. So I kind of dig on that too. I agree with everything you said. I think it looks like a seven game series, and I love the fact that those venues there. Those people are starved to see their teams get to and win a World Series. So there's energy in the ballpark from the very first pitch to the last. Can't wait for it. So next time we talk, we'll have a couple of games to talk about. Out of both lcs, is the American League and the National League. Joe looking forward to the next one. Always a pleasure, my pleasure, Tommy, thank you, see you next time on the Book of Joe podcast. The Book of Joe podcast is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The Book of Joe podcast is a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to another episode of the Book of Joe podcast. Of course it's the same name as the book, the actual book, The Book of Joe, written by me, Tom Verducci of Fox Sports, MLB Network and Sports Illustrated, and of course Joe Madden, three time Major League Manager of the Year. How are you doing, Joe? I'm doing great. How about yourself, buddy? Got a little wet down there right here? Yeah? How about that trip postseason trip to Dodger Stadium and Petco Park and I got rained on in both places. But you know what, that's the way this postseason has gone, Joe. I mean, we're talking about Dodgers went home, Braves went home, Mets went home. All these teams winning more than a hundred games are now watching the postseason. So let me start there, because obviously, you were one of the teams in the last twenty one years that won a championship and did not repeat. The Braves are the latest. I mean, do you see anything any pattern here, Joe? Why it is more difficult to repeat as a World Series champion than it's ever been since the World Series began there's so many hurdles. There's so many hurdles. When the World Series began, I mean it was a national leg in America League. You win your league and you go play seven games and go home. Um, just even the thought of it, if you have to go through the wild Card round then to the DSCS and of course the World Series. I don't think people process that well enough. It's it's hard, it's it's mentally difficult. It's physically difficult. Forty games in spring training, one sixty two, and then you've got to go ahead and compete again. Um, you know, when you're not really feeling the greatest, more than likely there's probably a lot of bumps and bruises. Uh, there's the mental component to it. And again, like I've talked to you about, see what first time eyes feel, the first time passion, all these things play into it. And I think it's a bad assumption to think that it's kind of like because you've been good the year before, your should be favored to do it again. I almost think that, like like it's indicating that's put you on the on the list of probably not going to repeat again. Um, it's just not easy and last point. Please realize, folks, that the other team were professionals also, and I think we underestimate or we don't give enough credit to the group that's ascending to so all these things could conspire to make it difficult to repeat. Yeah, I mean, listen, you know as well as anybody, the margin of victory is so small, But that also means the narrow of defeat. The margin of defeat is so narrow as well. I think about the home run hobby bias. It's in the basket to beat Johnny Quato, to survive the sixteen n l DS for the Cubs. And you think about Max Freed starting Game one for the Braves. He's, you know, battling the flu a little bit, just wasn't the same kind of picture that he had been just wasn't feeling great. These things happen in the postseason. Yeah, I mean, there's a there's another layer to this that it's hard to describe it and it is feel And I know I get to be scoffed at by those but um that those don't understand, but it's true. I mean there's a certain vibe that that's attached to a club that's been doing well, look at the Phillies right now. Uh and and and the and the vibe they got going on, and the Padres too. They both they're writing a high. You know, they both won very difficult series to get that next round, and it had a lot to do with their success um and and the potential for upcoming success. They believe in themselves, their confidences up and I also believe I haven't mentioned this yet, but when you bang bang bang to get to the playoffs, and it's really difficult, and it's and I know this happened to the two thousand and two Angels. Man, we have not done it before. So you get to that, to the to the door there and even just a clinch to clinch to get into it. It's really that, to me, is probably the most pressurized moment, just to get there if you haven't done it before, meaning the playoffs, and then what you get in the playoffs, you're almost able to chill just a little bit relaxed. We kindly, we finally got there. And it's it's hard to evaluate what that means to other than the fact that I think it's a positive. So you get to relax. We finally got there. We're in we're in the door now, which could we could just kind of relax and play. I think you saw that with the Phillies. I think you saw that with the the Padres too, So it's kind of interesting. Um, the how difficult it is to get there is one thing, and maybe you look like you're pressing towards the end of the season. Here comes the playoffs. Different group. Yeah, really good points. And that brings me to the other side of the coin, which is the Dodgers. Okay, I think the Dodgers have to really re evaluate how they go about playing these postseason games. You know, it's very standard procedure for them to get their starting pitcher out of there as quickly as possible. Essentially third time around. We saw that with Tyler Anderson pitching a really good game in Game four of the n LDS, he's out, the bullpen carousel starts again. They did this every single game. On the other side, you've got Bob Melvine with the Padres, where he allowed his three starting pitchers Darvish Snell must grove to pitch to the top of the Dodger lineup, and that's not an ordinary top of the Dodger lineup. You're talking about Bets Turner Freeman. He allowed them to pitch to the top of the lineup every game that they won Games two, three, and four. And now if you go back and you look at the innings pitch by starting starting pitchers this year, well, of the five and the top six, all of them are in the final five. In terms of still standing in the playoffs structure. You know Astro's Guardians, Yankees, Padres, Phillies, They're all there because they don't go to that bullpen every night early. So Jody would believe that that had a lot to do with how the Dodgers went out. I mean, maybe they just went to that carousel too quickly, too early. Well, yeah, I over the course of a hundred sixty two games, I understand the process, I think to a certain extent. But I I talked to you about before. I'm into trends, and the trend is the playoffs. It's different. It's just different in the playoffs, and you can't rely on the large sample size all the time. So yeah, I think maybe moving forward they may reevaluate it. Again, I'm not smart enough to know that if my picture is pitching, well, it's time to take him out. Um, if I'm watching this stuff is good. You watch the reaction of the hitter at that particular moment um. You can see late on on fast way, you can see break a ball is actually getting better command confidence. When he comes in after the inning, when he comes into the dugout, you can see how he walks in. You can watch him sitting there. There's different things you're gonna look at other than just a pitch count number or the inning that we're in. Um, all this stuff should matter. It does matter, and some groups like to be more sterile. UM. And with that, and when you're making decisions just based on those numbers, I understand from your perspective, whoever it's doing it, it's somewhat easier and it's more definable and it doesn't require feel, experience, wisdom, whatever, because it's hard to evaluate those kind of things. But I appreciate what Dusty does and I appreciate with bow Mill has done. Now listen, I think David has done a wonderful job. I'm a big fan of Dave Roberts also, But it's just again, organizational philosophies are different. Yeah, how about this matchups here in the NLCS of Managers. You've got Rob Thompson, baseball lifer, right, I think he's been the game about thirty seven years. Gets his first opportunity to be a big league manager this year when the Phillies fired Joe Girardi after a two and twenty nine start. You mentioned Bob Melvin. He's been around a long time. I've always thought he's done a great job with bullpen usage. He actually has managed the fourth most number of games of anybody who has not one a pennant, and now he's four wins away from getting there. Uh, Joe, as someone who took a long time to get your first big league job, and we talked about this a lot in the book. You were ready for it at that age, at the age of fifty two, and the struggle to get there was part of the really the charm of being in the game. But how about those two guys sitting there. What you feel for those two guys getting their first chance to go to a world Aries couldn't be happy? Or First of all, I'm happy for Robbie that he got that job and they made it officially. Absolutely deserves the opportunity. I was very pleased that it worked out that way for him. I don't know Robbie well just to say hi and h conversation, but I've watched them work with the Yankees. I know the respect that his players the teammates have for him and other coaches in the game. So it could not be happier for the man and boat. Mel and I have always communicated. I think he does a great job. Actually, I think I told Hendrow at one Thomas and when you fire me, you should hire Bob Melvin. I think I told him that specifically. I like the way he goes about his business. Um, yeah, he's on top of things, there's no question about it. When it comes to bullpen usage. I think I know he communicates and relates well with his group, so I'm a big fan of his. Also, at both these guys, you wish them nothing but the best, And you're right, I mean you wait, Um, Bobby didn't have to wait as long as I did or Robbie has. But when you wait that long, you should feel um convicted and what you believe in what you want to say to your guys. There's no real gray areas left and you're not searching. You've You've done these kind of things before. Maybe not on the major league level, but you have the experience of doing them before. I love that. By the way, quick story on Rob Thompson. Of course, he was with the Yankees for many years. He would run their spring trainings every year. Um and he was really influenced by George Steinbrenner when it comes to attention to detail. And he told a great story that uh, Steinbrenner would take him to Tampa Bay Lightning games and you pick him up at the minor league complex. And every time that George would pick him up, he as he's driving out of the parking lot, he would notice certain cars that were backed into their spots and he would always ask Rob Thompson, whose car is that? Whose car is that? And Rob said, why do you want to know? You know whose car that is? He said, because the guys who back into their spots are the ones who are not hurried to get out of work. Unless sure, I want those kind of guys working for me. He didn't miss the thing the boss, Hey, when we get back. Once I saw this play happened, I knew I had to ask Joe Madden about it. I can't believe it goes on in the major leagues, and I want to get his take on it. You'll want to hear this when we get back to the Book of Joe. Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast with Tom Berducci and Joe Madden and Joe. The play that I referenced earlier, it reminds me of Little League first and third, where the runner in this case, it was Juan Sotos literally dancing into second base without a play being made on him. Now, I get it. It's first and third, there's two strikes on the battery, there's two outs to go. Ahead run is at third base. You don't want a middle infield to vacate his position, open up a hole on the groundball, and you lose the game because you're defending the runner at first and allowing the run around third to score. I get it, but it's the big leagues. There has to be a way to defend that play without giving up that base so freely. And that base, by the way, was huge because it became a two run lead for that San Diego bullpen rather than a one run game. And it was game over with Juan Soto being allowed and I mean allowed to take second base and I went back and I asked some of the people with the Padres. It turns out the Dodgers did not defend that play the entire season, so the Padres had free reign to run Soto knowing that there's not even a chance they're going to put on a play. Now, if you were on a play, a defensive play against that play at all during the season, at least you create some doubt in your mind on the Padres side, and maybe Soto doesn't run, or at least you think about it. But to me, Joe should never happen in the big leagues where there's a hundred percent chance of anything, And this was a hud that the second can't run was going to move up for free into scoring position. So I want to hear your take about this well. In spring training, I do this all the time we go through that particular play, and easy concept is early in the game, Early in the game, you're trying to stay out of a big inning, that first and third situation. Um, yes, you go ahead and your throw through you try to get an out. I'll take down at second base and even give them a run under those circumstances to avoid a beginning so that's uh, that's the exactly how we describe it during camp. And UM, so we have a specific play design for that we're gonna throw through as opposed to maybe arm fake to to third or just holding onto the ball completely. There's other plays that have been done in the past, but it's really been reduced to those two specific things are simple things. The other one is the latter part of the game. One of the things, UM, I really want them to be able to do under those circumstances is earned the run from third base, earn it by half. They hit the ball, they have to put it in play. They got to move the baseball, as opposed to have the understop trying to steal the run that way, possibly a bad throw by the catcher. Again, who's who's the hitter, who's the runner at first? How quick is the picture to the plate. All these things are a factor in this particular moment. So for me, I'm more than likely not thrown through, even though and I agree with you that you do know and I've had I've been in this position where, um, even though we're not gonna throw I know now that winning run is going to get the second base and that's that bothers me. It bothers me. But that's a chance you may have to take, or you do may you may take, uh in order to not have them square that other run by not even having to move the baseball. So there's different ways of looking at it. I think that's what we saw right there. I um, I don't even know if I saw all last year, uh, when you did throw through, when we did throw through the last couple of years, that there was even attempt to try to steal home plate on the throw through the second base. There's the other things you can do with the run right third bluffs so that the second basement, shure stuff come into ensure the fact that the runners steal second base. So it's a long convoluted answer. Early in the game, I'm throwing through the latter part of the game, but it's a one run lead, I may choose to not throw too because they want them to earn the run. Yeah, it's it's all as you said, there are many variables to it. But I can tell anybody who's going to be watching the NLCS if that situation occurs with the Phillies they're throwing through. I talked to j t real motto about this. He's like me, he doesn't think you should allow free bases in the major leagues. He said, we're essentially playing a game of catch between me and the middle infielder. You tell me we can't execute two throws before that runner comes in. Now, you do take a risk. I get that, um. But as they run the play, they have the second baseman usually covering. He comes into the grass or near the grass, towards the first base side of second base, so he's cutting the distance between first base and the unner well obviously keeping an eye on third. So the way the Phillies runn it is that's not a free base. I think that at least puts doubt in the Padres mind that if they're in that situation, they'd be better prepared, that the Phillies may defend that runner going to second base. That it's not a toll free base. And for me, Joe, anything in this game where you create doubt in your opponent, I'm all for it. Yeah. The other thing is, I mean with that um, the runner at third base has to be aggressive, and that's where the other play comes into. With the full arm fake throw the third and you've got to know you're running a third There's times you will designate before a series begin, we're going to go after a particular runner because we know sometimes you can fall asleep or sometimes he gets overly aggressive. So there's so many different ways to evaluate that. And furthermore, real Mudo, just by the way he spoke to you, is very confident that he can complete that place. Some guys aren't as confident. The other thing is, who's the really guy who's throwing the ball back to the plate. What does his arm look like? And then furthermore, I mean the picture's time to the plate. All this stuff matters, um, so you have to again it's it's not just one size fits all. For me, I would evaluate all these things before I decide. But overarching, early in the game, we're gonna get out of the beginning ladder part of the game. They have to earn the run. Yeah, and at the risk of getting a little bit deeper into the defensive positioning weeds. I had to bring this up. It didn't decide the game, but it was early in the game, the deciding game the Padres won. Freddie Freeman is batting with Mookie on third base, and trade Turner on second. Early in the game scoreless game, the Padres have Will Myers the first baseman, playing in on the grass. I'm Freddie Freeman. I didn't get that at all. And Freddie of course hits the ground ball that if if Myers is playing back one run scores instead playing up, he can't get to it. It goes buy him for a double two run score. I checked with some people with the Padres and there was a lot of eye rolling. They realized that that was a mistake. That was just not good defensive positioning that early in the game. There's there's no other way to look at it. Will as a first baseman, uh in the latter part of his career, right out of love Will, but there's times I'm sure that he really does need to be directed that that, to me is definitely on the player, but it's also that's got to come from the bench to somebody specifically in charge of positioning for infield defense per per batter, and I was in charge of that at some point. It's tedious, man, You've got to stay on top of it. You can't fall asleep, you can't start watching the ball. What happens sometimes you start watching the baseball, and when you're coaching, you cannot follow the ball. You're watching anything but the ball. When when the when that moment occurs when the pitch is being thrown. So I would as a hitting coach, I'd never watched the ball as a if I'm as a catching coach, I'm not watching the ball in field instructor, I gotta get to my defenders before the ball is thrown. So you can't watch the ball. You gotta watch everything else. And finally, one more on defensive positioning. This involves something and you're Bailey Wick as you like to say, catching. Okay, the Padres are they're big on not using the one knee stance behind the plate. Francisco Savelli it was hired this year as they're catching instructor. He told Aaron Nola Austin Nola, Rather, you're not doing it anymore. He tried it last year. Nola did. It didn't work well. He had some leg injuries, Uh, severely. Big proponent of using the old school way behind a disk. Joe, there's been a lot of debate about catching your You have such a history with instructing and playing the position. What's your take on the one knee stands. We see a lot of teams use I don't like it, um i Uh. As a catcher, um I would always instruct my catcher as you can go to one knee with less than two strikes and nobody on base. That was always the thing because if you just needed a rest, it was more from a rest perspective, not being up on your in your stance all the time. So with less than two strikes, it doesn't have to ball block the ball, and with nobody on base, you don't have to block the ball. Go ahead and chill. Remember Tony Painia used to literally sit on his butt uh to get a ball down in the strikes one. And sometimes that's another reason. If a picture just can't get the ball down, I would ask my guys to sit or get to one knee like that just to force him down in the strike zone. Now I'm gonna defend this too in a sense, because I've seen guys block pitches that are starting on one knee that I didn't think they can do. I really didn't. I I was baffled, and I'm impressed by the technique that's evolved for the group that has learned how to catch off of one knee. So I thought that wouldn't happen. It has happened. I'll defend that. The part that I think is difficult, the bad habit occurs from throwing. When you get to one knee with a runner on base, sometimes you can it can become more problematic to just receive the ball and throw it um your your footwork can get screwed up unless the pitch is in a perfect spot. So, uh, last point too, And nobody's talking about this. I can't believe the Empires will let them get away with it. This this framing component, where where the where the glo is moving so much before And I'm watching the look some of the games on team and you see guys pull balls that I knew back in the day, you'd never get that call. I would prefer umpires and say, hey, listen, stop pulling pitches. You're not getting anything. Now you're gonna You're gonna hear from the the fact that these guys are so scrutinized with an obvious box painted on the television screen. But if I'm an umpire, I would tell guys stop pulling that, stop pulling those pitches on me. Man you're not going to get them. And I used to be a part of the conversation back then when this wasn't a scrutinize. If they thought you were pulling framing uh too much, too obviously, then you would get reprimanded by the umpire. So um, I prefer tried and true. Absolutely, I'm okay with one knee less than two strikes nobody on base to catch a break or to get the ball down in the strike zone. They're doing it right now. For the elephant kind of thing where they're trying to they move the gloves so much prior to the pitch being thrown that it's easier to do that from one knee way that that that that glove hand, the receiving hand can move more really based on that particular stance as a post to a more conventional stance. It's all tied together. I preferred the traditional, but there are times I'm okay with one ny good stuff. Joe. Hey, when we get back with the Book of Joe podcast, I want to ask Joe about what it's like actually being in the dugout for a postseason game when, as he said, he said this in our book, it's kind of like the Starship Enterprise taken off. The speed of the game down there in the dugout, especially in the postseason, Well, it's a lot faster than you might think. We'll dive into that next Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast, And I mentioned Joe the speed of the game. We talked about the speed of the game, maybe velocity pitchers, foot, speed runners, ball coming off the bat. But how about for a manager, did you feel that running postseason games, Um, that the game was a little bit different given everything at stake and some of these crowds, especially when you're on the road. Yeah, you just well you have to be on top of it even more. Um, you know, you have to make maybe decisions then that you wouldn't normally make during the season. You'll be more tolerant or patient during the season, where the playoffs you're less tolerant, less patient. Um. Yeah, it's when you're sitting up at that bird's eye level looking down, everything appears to be so slow, but it is, like we talked about, it is like when the Starship takes off and you get that blur in its wake, beause it moves away. In the the old star Trek show, it's like that, and so for me, that's why you got to play the game before the game. That's for me. When you've never done it before you're asked to do it, I don't get it. I mean, I've needed all these years of experience in order to process and slow the game down in those moments regular season. Then it gets even more magnified in the postseason. But it comes down to your process and again, your preparation for me before the game permits me to slow the game down in game. I'll tell you when it gets crazy is in a National league game, uh, in a National a playoff game, when you really have to keep an eye in your picture as you're trying to move things around. To the point the time with I brought Chapman and I can't remember the game against the Dodgers what number it was, but I brought him in early, and I counted the hitters through and he's going to be eight up the next inning. So I thought he gets through this intem he could use him the next inning also, But here it comes a bases loaded, two out situation and here's his that bad. I think we were tieder down or up by one run. Something like that. Anyway, I had to go to Montero and I had to take him out of the game. But I've done all my counting. I was right about that. But the and he got extended Montero. It's a two strike grand Slam for two of us um So the National League preparation of the LASH League game under these circumstances, to me, it was more difficult than the American League game because you don't have to keep it on your picture batting. Yes, you always are in advance. You're always in advance of every moment, and that's something you have to think about before the inning begins. You're thinking about the pitfalls. That's interesting to think about the pitfall. Yeah, you talked about Montero. If Montero doesn't come through there, you're in a tie game and your closers there's no more and that's that's just you have to make that decision right there. And again, you did to do process leading into that moment. You counted it out. It was unlikely that he was gonna come up, that anybody did. And then there's no way you're gonna let him hit right there in a thie game just to um permit him to go back out there and pitch. So you roll the dice O two breaking ball slider cutter from Blunton too, Migan. I'll tell you what, that's one of the loudest home runs I've heard in that ballpark. Yeah, that was amazing. And speaking of loud, the seventh inning at Petco Park in Game four in the NLDS was crazy loud. Let me tell you, But I want to go to where it started, Joe. It was a leadoff walk with a three nothing lead, Tommy Kinley on the mound for the Dodgers. I don't know about you, but I feel like watching these postseason games that a leadoff walk it doesn't start a rally. It is a rally. It's it just seems to ben incredible momentum changer. It feels like in these postseason games, you give a team a base, it's gonna come back and bite you. So, you know, do you feel sometimes that you do have to be quicker to get a picture out. I know there's a three batter minimum roll, so you're not gonna take them out after one batter. You can't do it. But um, the idea that you have to kind of stave momentum as quickly as possible in the postseason game. How about that. That's why it's harder to nail it down with all these relief pitchers because you have to face three hitters. I was talking about that. I think we talked about that earlier. This this matchup component the latter part of the game. Uh, theoretically back in the day, not bad. I mean if I have this nice ing and yang rightings and lefties can work with, and you're working against the lineup that they're not going to pinch it for, and if you know they're gonna pinch it for, that's where utilize your reverse split. Guy. I mean, there's all these different things that you think about, uh in advance, but right now, to nail down that many innings when the guy's got to phase three, you gotta have some really good relief I think, um, listen, I've had some good pens. I've got some good guys. But it's really an unnerving thought to think that you have to nail down the sixth, seventh, eighth, and ninth on an on a continual basis. Where these guys, and again we've talked about it, really pictures are health at this impossible standard of being perfect having to be perfect all the time. So all this stuff in consideration, Man, it's hard to match it up. And I agree with you. A walk in late in the game, especially in a playoff game, is a rally. You're absolutely correct. There's a different mindset that it evolves around that as opposed to be hit. From the pictures perspective, I lost the plate all of a sudden, we got to runder the manager. Everybody starts scumming in the dugout and it's felt everywhere. And speaking of the Phillies, by the way um they got they have a couple of players that you're very familiar with managing them, Kylischwarber, Brandon Marsh. I look at this Phillies team. I don't know, and just maybe because they're winning five postseason games so far, but the mix of players there seems to be very good. I think there is a little bit of vibe of the Cubs for me with this position player group. Um, but give me an insight on guys like Schwarber and Marsh and and a fan watching them on TV here they can understand a little bit more about them other than that they're really good players. Castiano. Snicky is another one. I had Nikki to love Nikki. Yeah that's right, Yeah, okay, let me just use um Schwerber as like the hood ornament here, like the old mirk that was sticking out proudly as the car drove down the street. He's just fearless. Um, watch him, watch him. Uh, he's got a really I want the word is the right word? Is not casual, A relaxed nont Uh. There's no tension whatsoever in his in his approach, and I think that rubs off on the rest of the group, even some of the guys that have been there for a while. Um. I think that it starts with Schwerbs. Uh. I don't know. Marshy Brandon, in spite of his youth, is really a present, tense guy. He's able, like he'll punch out of punch out, but that's going to bother the next step back. If he makes a mistake in the field, that's not going to bother the next play. He has a fearlessness about his game also that I love. And Nikki is one of the most confident players I've ever been around. Uh. Nikki would come up to me before every game and say happy opening day every day he'd come up to me. It never got old. And the thing about Nick. If Nick gets hot, which he seems to be doing right now, and this he's not an analytical movement because he's going after that first pitch a lot, and it doesn't have to be a strike. He starts missing outfielders. The ball goes line gap gap line when he hits it. So you've got three fearless players, three guys that I I They don't over analyze it, they don't take it too deeply. They do their work. They're great workers, but they definitely live in a moment. And I think the rest of that group is doing the same thing from them. By the way, I'm glad you brought up hood ornaments. What happened to hood ornaments? And I'm not talking about you know, the Roles of Roys is probably the most famous one. He didn't have to be a luxury car to have a hood ornament back in a day, right, No, my my bell, there's got a really groovy looking like jet kind of a thing on the front of it. I love that. I mean, I've got an old beamer with the old beamer little emblem on the I love emblems. I love ornaments on on vehicles. I just had my U. S. S pickup redone and the guy wanted to know who did a great job in Phoenix. Mark wanted to know, Um, do you want me to put the emblems back? And I said, of course I do. Don't change anything, don't take anything off this thing. I think that's the beauty of the car. I love all of that. And you're right, but I remember the mirk. The mirk had that the dude with the helmet with there was that pontiac sticking out probably on the on the dude with the helmet. Yeah, yeah, right exactly. It was uh yeah, I love that stuff. I think cars miss We're missing the boat with our vehicles anymore. I really I don't like that. Yeah, even those old oldsmobiles. A hood ornament, Well how about the grill and I sticking up out of my fifty nine El Camino. The grill on that it is just an intricate grill, and and it's all this little details, and it's it's chrome, which I like. I like chrome over plastic any day of the week. I want a real bumper that if you you know, five miles and already hit something. It just laughs at it, it doesn't crumble. I mean, we've gotten away from all the really cool things about cars. I love the chrome, I love the two tone paint um, I love the the interiors being uh different, the herring bone whatever. I miss all that stuff. Cool stuff. Well, the next time we talked, Joe, we'll talk about a couple of hood ornaments in the NLCS Manny Machado and Bryce Harper. How about those two guys thirty years old, they were free agents at the same time. They both signed with teams that hadn't won in at least six years. I'm talking about a winning season Padres in their case, I've never won a World Series. Philly has been a long time for them, going back to oh eight. I can't wait to see those two guys match up, Machado and Harper. So, without giving anything away, here, is there a team you like in that series? In this and I'm I like, I mean, you've met you, darbish is pitching and I've still been I've been texting with you lately. I love you, Darbish. Um the other side, I probably have a little bit more invested on the Philly side, including like Bow and all those guys Larry Boa, Charlie Manuel, the guys that I really like their Sammy Folds the GM that's another guy. So I mean, I played that game internally a little bit, but I think it's gonna be very entertaining. I do. I've got to seeing with first time I was dealing with first time passion groups. You're gonna see all odd efforts every night. You're gonna see um, some some guys like like what Grisham has been doing is not supposed to be doing that all of a sudden he gets hot. You're gonna see that again. It should be a fascinating series. Both managers, I think, are going to manage the game and not be overtly influenced by numbers. So I kind of dig on that too. I agree with everything you said. I think it looks like a seven game series, and I love the fact that those venues there. Those people are starved to see their teams get to and win a World Series. So there's energy in the ballpark from the very first pitch to the last. Can't wait for it. So next time we talk, we'll have a couple of games to talk about. Out of both lcs, is the American League and the National League. Joe looking forward to the next one. Always a pleasure, my pleasure, Tommy, thank you, see you next time on the Book of Joe podcast. The Book of Joe podcast is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.