Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Set podcast. My guest today is the one and only Jerry Douglas, dough bro and Lapskewal guitar player Extraordinarire. Jerry. What is a doughbro?

Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Set podcast. My guest today is the one and only Jerry Douglas, dough bro and Lapskewal guitar player Extraordinarire. Jerry. What is a doughbro?

Bob? Thanks for having me on today. A doughbro is a guitar. Basically, it's a guitar.

Bob? Thanks for having me on today. A doughbro is a guitar. Basically, it's a guitar.

It has a People would recognize it from a shiny like hubcap on top of the guitar, but that's that's all something that goes into making the sound. There were some five Slovakian brothers in the twenties who loved Hawaiian music, but it wasn't loud enough for them. They were used to hear in loud bands oompah, all kinds of crazy stuff over there. Crazy to us, not to them, But they came over here and there was a Hawaiian guitar craze going on in the United States and the twenties that had been a sort of a out you know it was. It was created by a World's exposition that had Hawaiian musicians at it, and the whole world went crazy about these Hawaiian musicians. So all these guys started selling these Hawaiian guitars door to door to all the kids and selling them, you know, little sheet music to learn how to play Hawaiian music. And so they first created the National guitar in Chicago. It was an all metal body guitar like it is on the front of the Dire Straits record Brothers in Arms, and people recognize it from that. But I play the wooden bodied version that these guys developed in the late nineteen twenties in Los Angeles, and I have pictures of whole dobro orchestra. It must have been an awful sound, but it became popular in Hawaiian music, and then blues music. Blues guy's got a hold of it because it was loud enough to compete with their voice, so they could go ahead and sing as loud as they wanted to.

It has a People would recognize it from a shiny like hubcap on top of the guitar, but that's that's all something that goes into making the sound. There were some five Slovakian brothers in the twenties who loved Hawaiian music, but it wasn't loud enough for them. They were used to hear in loud bands oompah, all kinds of crazy stuff over there. Crazy to us, not to them, But they came over here and there was a Hawaiian guitar craze going on in the United States and the twenties that had been a sort of a out you know it was. It was created by a World's exposition that had Hawaiian musicians at it, and the whole world went crazy about these Hawaiian musicians. So all these guys started selling these Hawaiian guitars door to door to all the kids and selling them, you know, little sheet music to learn how to play Hawaiian music. And so they first created the National guitar in Chicago. It was an all metal body guitar like it is on the front of the Dire Straits record Brothers in Arms, and people recognize it from that. But I play the wooden bodied version that these guys developed in the late nineteen twenties in Los Angeles, and I have pictures of whole dobro orchestra. It must have been an awful sound, but it became popular in Hawaiian music, and then blues music. Blues guy's got a hold of it because it was loud enough to compete with their voice, so they could go ahead and sing as loud as they wanted to.

Uh and uh.

Uh and uh.

And then it fell into the hands of Bashful Brother Oswald, who played with Roy Acuff on the grandule Opry. And he was working in a car plant in Flint, Michigan, and in UH came across this guy, this Hawaiian guy who played Hawaiian guitar, and Bashful Brother Oswald just loved the sound of it and learned how to play it, brought it back to Nashville, and then sooner or later, the guy that I really learned from and the guy that inspired me to play the guitar and the Doughbro guitar in the first place, was a fellow named Josh Graves Buck Graves, who played with Lester Flatten Earl Scrugs in the Foggy Mountain Boys. And that's what I heard that every morning getting up to go to school as my dad was getting ready to go to to the steel mill to go to work up in northeastern Ohio and Warren, Ohio. And I heard that guitar every morning, and I just fell in love with the sound of it. So I played guitar at the time and started told my dad if he would raise the action up on my guitar, that I would learn how to play like that guy that we'd seen the other night. I was about ten years old, and that's when I started playing dope row guitar.

And then it fell into the hands of Bashful Brother Oswald, who played with Roy Acuff on the grandule Opry. And he was working in a car plant in Flint, Michigan, and in UH came across this guy, this Hawaiian guy who played Hawaiian guitar, and Bashful Brother Oswald just loved the sound of it and learned how to play it, brought it back to Nashville, and then sooner or later, the guy that I really learned from and the guy that inspired me to play the guitar and the Doughbro guitar in the first place, was a fellow named Josh Graves Buck Graves, who played with Lester Flatten Earl Scrugs in the Foggy Mountain Boys. And that's what I heard that every morning getting up to go to school as my dad was getting ready to go to to the steel mill to go to work up in northeastern Ohio and Warren, Ohio. And I heard that guitar every morning, and I just fell in love with the sound of it. So I played guitar at the time and started told my dad if he would raise the action up on my guitar, that I would learn how to play like that guy that we'd seen the other night. I was about ten years old, and that's when I started playing dope row guitar.

Okay, the guitar has got the resonator on it. How do you play it relative to a regular guitar.

Okay, the guitar has got the resonator on it. How do you play it relative to a regular guitar.

Well, first of all, you start out with it on your lap, have it laying on flat on your lap and you play it with a metal slide. Instead of pushing the strings down to hit frets to stop the note, you use a slide, a metal slide on top, and the strings are raised up from the frets, so you don't hit the frets anymore. And that is your threat. That steel bar that you're you're holding in your hand, that that is, that's your threat. That's your point of of being in tune and uh and uh try and trying not to hit a bad note against a singer like Alison Krause.

Well, first of all, you start out with it on your lap, have it laying on flat on your lap and you play it with a metal slide. Instead of pushing the strings down to hit frets to stop the note, you use a slide, a metal slide on top, and the strings are raised up from the frets, so you don't hit the frets anymore. And that is your threat. That steel bar that you're you're holding in your hand, that that is, that's your threat. That's your point of of being in tune and uh and uh try and trying not to hit a bad note against a singer like Alison Krause.

Okay, So in a conventional guitar, you know e a d G B, you move your fingers. How do you tune and get the different notes on a dough bro?

Okay, So in a conventional guitar, you know e a d G B, you move your fingers. How do you tune and get the different notes on a dough bro?

The the the main the tuning that most Doughbro players use is from high to low. It's DBG than an octave lower dbg.

The the the main the tuning that most Doughbro players use is from high to low. It's DBG than an octave lower dbg.

Uh. But I have.

Uh. But I have.

Messed around with different tunings over the years, all kinds of tunings, dropping you know, to dropping my uh second string to create a create a suspension you know between there and and create create tune my B string down to an aid. So it just creates a little bit of of tension and it also uh gives you a way to. You can pull the string behind the bar and raise it to the proper pitch if you want to. But you know, it's just a it's just a you know, it's just an ornament really that tuning. But I also have a thing on my guitar. It's called a hip shot, a double hip shot that is like a looks like a bigs B pedal, palm pedal, you.

Messed around with different tunings over the years, all kinds of tunings, dropping you know, to dropping my uh second string to create a create a suspension you know between there and and create create tune my B string down to an aid. So it just creates a little bit of of tension and it also uh gives you a way to. You can pull the string behind the bar and raise it to the proper pitch if you want to. But you know, it's just a it's just a you know, it's just an ornament really that tuning. But I also have a thing on my guitar. It's called a hip shot, a double hip shot that is like a looks like a bigs B pedal, palm pedal, you.

Know, vibrato.

Know, vibrato.

But this thing, you release it and it drops the tuning to a drop D tuning, which then is from E a F sharp duh a D. So it's a dead GAD, except there's an F sharp instead of the first D.

But this thing, you release it and it drops the tuning to a drop D tuning, which then is from E a F sharp duh a D. So it's a dead GAD, except there's an F sharp instead of the first D.

I was second D.

I was second D.

Let's go back. Your father worked in the steel mills. How long was your family in America before he worked in the steel mills?

Let's go back. Your father worked in the steel mills. How long was your family in America before he worked in the steel mills?

Our first Douglas came over in seventeen forty eight, Wow, came into Pittsburgh, came into not Pittsburgh, came into Philadelphia and was put on the road south. You know, they were sort of dividing people as they came in. And my people were from Scotland and then were you know, because of the clearances where their land was given away, they were they were sent to Northern Ireland, and they didn't want them there either, so they went to America and came into Philadelphia, like I said, were put on the road south where they were trying to create a lot of Italians and Scott's Irish were sent south because they needed stone workers south to build the coke ovens in order to build foundries and get some industry going. So they were actually planning these kind of things. And my Douglases came down into Virginia and settled in this little town called Buchannan, which became West Virginia. That part of Virginia became West Virginia. So Buchan in West Virginia is where my people really settled for the first time. And my mother and father now live about forty five miles from there. So the family, that portion of the family didn't spread too far, but others, you know, William O. Douglas is a relative of mine, distant relative, and Douglas is all over the place. I mean, I've I haven't joined twenty three in meters, so I haven't tracked anybody down, and I'm scared of that thing anyway. So being a traveling musician, I don't need any other children or grandchildren.

Our first Douglas came over in seventeen forty eight, Wow, came into Pittsburgh, came into not Pittsburgh, came into Philadelphia and was put on the road south. You know, they were sort of dividing people as they came in. And my people were from Scotland and then were you know, because of the clearances where their land was given away, they were they were sent to Northern Ireland, and they didn't want them there either, so they went to America and came into Philadelphia, like I said, were put on the road south where they were trying to create a lot of Italians and Scott's Irish were sent south because they needed stone workers south to build the coke ovens in order to build foundries and get some industry going. So they were actually planning these kind of things. And my Douglases came down into Virginia and settled in this little town called Buchannan, which became West Virginia. That part of Virginia became West Virginia. So Buchan in West Virginia is where my people really settled for the first time. And my mother and father now live about forty five miles from there. So the family, that portion of the family didn't spread too far, but others, you know, William O. Douglas is a relative of mine, distant relative, and Douglas is all over the place. I mean, I've I haven't joined twenty three in meters, so I haven't tracked anybody down, and I'm scared of that thing anyway. So being a traveling musician, I don't need any other children or grandchildren.

Okay, So how did they end up in Warren, Ohio? And how did your father end up working in the steel mill.

Okay, So how did they end up in Warren, Ohio? And how did your father end up working in the steel mill.

My father's had some cousins that had gone north and found work in the steel mills around Warren and Youngstown, Ohio, in the northeastern part of the state, and they said, well, come on up here, we can find work for you. And in West Virginia at that point, if you it depended on which party was in power, the Republicans or the Democrats. And if you were in the Democrats, you either worked in the coal mines, you worked on the state road, or you were a farmer. And my father was looking for a better life, so he my mother got buried and moved straight up to Ohio and he went to work in the steel mills and stayed there for forty years until he retired from the mills. And then they moved back to my mother's farm, which had been in the family now for over two hundred years, and built a nice, great, big log cabin on top of a ridge, and dad's ninety two, mom's eighty nine. They lived there by themselves, and they're just amazing. I can't I know I've got those genes, and I'm scared to death what I'll be doing when I'm ninety two years old.

My father's had some cousins that had gone north and found work in the steel mills around Warren and Youngstown, Ohio, in the northeastern part of the state, and they said, well, come on up here, we can find work for you. And in West Virginia at that point, if you it depended on which party was in power, the Republicans or the Democrats. And if you were in the Democrats, you either worked in the coal mines, you worked on the state road, or you were a farmer. And my father was looking for a better life, so he my mother got buried and moved straight up to Ohio and he went to work in the steel mills and stayed there for forty years until he retired from the mills. And then they moved back to my mother's farm, which had been in the family now for over two hundred years, and built a nice, great, big log cabin on top of a ridge, and dad's ninety two, mom's eighty nine. They lived there by themselves, and they're just amazing. I can't I know I've got those genes, and I'm scared to death what I'll be doing when I'm ninety two years old.

So your father retired before the whole steel business imploded.

So your father retired before the whole steel business imploded.

Well, he saw it coming.

Well, he saw it coming.

I remember the day he came home and said to me, our steel days are numbered because they're buying Japanese steel now. And then it became Chinese steel, and you know, yeah, and his company was.

I remember the day he came home and said to me, our steel days are numbered because they're buying Japanese steel now. And then it became Chinese steel, and you know, yeah, and his company was.

Owned by a huge, a huge.

Owned by a huge, a huge.

Rich family, European family, and they weren't getting much help. So Dad took his retirement. He retired at just the right time to get out with all his benefits and his you know, everything in his retirement. It was like it was the perfect American dream at that point, you know, you could you could still get out of it and take with what they said that you were going to have, and they took it. So he, you know, just just a couple of years ago his retirement ran out. You know, so he has lived, he's lived the whole dream. He lived through his retirement and he's just you know, he's fine, he's fine.

Rich family, European family, and they weren't getting much help. So Dad took his retirement. He retired at just the right time to get out with all his benefits and his you know, everything in his retirement. It was like it was the perfect American dream at that point, you know, you could you could still get out of it and take with what they said that you were going to have, and they took it. So he, you know, just just a couple of years ago his retirement ran out. You know, so he has lived, he's lived the whole dream. He lived through his retirement and he's just you know, he's fine, he's fine.

Okay. So you're growing up in Warren. How many kids in the family.

Okay. So you're growing up in Warren. How many kids in the family.

My brother and I were just the two of us.

My brother and I were just the two of us.

There were a lot of cousins around, but most of our family was in West Virginia, so we go south for vacations, and the family never really we didn't really travel that far. We didn't travel outside Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, you know, Pennsylvania, just surrounding high We didn't go that far on vacations. But my dad would get these five week paid vacations every year after he hit a certain amount of years in the steel mill. So he would go take us and we would just go to bluegrass festivals and just hear all this music that you know, that we loved. And he had a band. My father had a band in Warren, Ohio called the West Virginia Travelers and they were all guys from West Virginia who had work in the steel mills. And they but they when people from the south moved north, they took their music with them, you know, and and a lot of other things that maybe they shouldn't have taken. But I think back to the jd Vance to the Hillbilly Elogy, you know, those people moved to Dayton and took everything with them, their lifestyle, everything.

There were a lot of cousins around, but most of our family was in West Virginia, so we go south for vacations, and the family never really we didn't really travel that far. We didn't travel outside Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, you know, Pennsylvania, just surrounding high We didn't go that far on vacations. But my dad would get these five week paid vacations every year after he hit a certain amount of years in the steel mill. So he would go take us and we would just go to bluegrass festivals and just hear all this music that you know, that we loved. And he had a band. My father had a band in Warren, Ohio called the West Virginia Travelers and they were all guys from West Virginia who had work in the steel mills. And they but they when people from the south moved north, they took their music with them, you know, and and a lot of other things that maybe they shouldn't have taken. But I think back to the jd Vance to the Hillbilly Elogy, you know, those people moved to Dayton and took everything with them, their lifestyle, everything.

But in up in our our part of the our part of the woods.

But in up in our our part of the our part of the woods.

There were so many people, so many different ethnic uh you know, it with a lot of Greek people, people from Greece, people from Italy.

There were so many people, so many different ethnic uh you know, it with a lot of Greek people, people from Greece, people from Italy.

It was a huge Italian population and just a boiling pot. And you know, and the food was amazing up there, and uh, just all kinds of people getting along. You know. It wasn't it wasn't didn't seem to be a division. You know.

It was a huge Italian population and just a boiling pot. And you know, and the food was amazing up there, and uh, just all kinds of people getting along. You know. It wasn't it wasn't didn't seem to be a division. You know.

They all had nicknames for each other. But there was never any never any trouble or anything like that. But but Dad, he he was up there sort of on his own, uh you know, but had a band and they started working and then there create that created other bands, other bluegrass bands around there.

They all had nicknames for each other. But there was never any never any trouble or anything like that. But but Dad, he he was up there sort of on his own, uh you know, but had a band and they started working and then there create that created other bands, other bluegrass bands around there.

But he was one of the first in that area. Uh.

But he was one of the first in that area. Uh.

And and that because of that, I got to see a band rehearse when I was, you know, five six years old, rolling around under the kitchen table, watching these guys figure out how to create a song, and that all I was a sponge.

And and that because of that, I got to see a band rehearse when I was, you know, five six years old, rolling around under the kitchen table, watching these guys figure out how to create a song, and that all I was a sponge.

I sooked all of that up. I learned a lot from just watching them.

I sooked all of that up. I learned a lot from just watching them.

Okay, your brother older, younger, where is he today.

Okay, your brother older, younger, where is he today.

He's he's almost three years younger than me.

He's he's almost three years younger than me.

Uh, he's retired now, and he was a meter reader in West Virginia down there where he moved down to be kind of keep an eye on the folks. And he's on the next ridge over in another loghouse that he but he can see their house, and you know, it's it's great that he's there, you know, because I can't be but uh he and he also started playing bass, uh at one point, and and became a really good bass player. But he just he wasn't as interested in making a living at it or doing what.

Uh, he's retired now, and he was a meter reader in West Virginia down there where he moved down to be kind of keep an eye on the folks. And he's on the next ridge over in another loghouse that he but he can see their house, and you know, it's it's great that he's there, you know, because I can't be but uh he and he also started playing bass, uh at one point, and and became a really good bass player. But he just he wasn't as interested in making a living at it or doing what.

I did, you know, following following what I did.

I did, you know, following following what I did.

Okay, you come of age when the Beatles break. I have close friends grew up in the exact same area. So you talk about your father listening to country music. Were also exposed to the British invasion in the other top forty stuff.

Okay, you come of age when the Beatles break. I have close friends grew up in the exact same area. So you talk about your father listening to country music. Were also exposed to the British invasion in the other top forty stuff.

Definitely was.

Definitely was.

I mean, like I said, I would listen to Flatten Scrugs or something like that in the morning. But at night I was close enough to Cleveland that it was I would lay in my bed with my little bug, you know, and put that my ear and listen to what the lightest rock and roll was coming out of Cleveland. So I was really confused, you because I loved that music, and I loved what I heard in the morning. I'm trying to figure out, how do I marry these two things, and how can I make how can I make one music out of tude or you know, trying to figure out that, figure that out. And I think I've done it over the time. I think I've done it and combined the two just by being a chameleon and being a musician that listened, and you know, doing sessions.

I mean, like I said, I would listen to Flatten Scrugs or something like that in the morning. But at night I was close enough to Cleveland that it was I would lay in my bed with my little bug, you know, and put that my ear and listen to what the lightest rock and roll was coming out of Cleveland. So I was really confused, you because I loved that music, and I loved what I heard in the morning. I'm trying to figure out, how do I marry these two things, and how can I make how can I make one music out of tude or you know, trying to figure out that, figure that out. And I think I've done it over the time. I think I've done it and combined the two just by being a chameleon and being a musician that listened, and you know, doing sessions.

That's that's your job.

That's that's your job.

Listen, you listen, and you you learn the song fast, you come up with a hook, and you do all of these things as fast as possible in order to you know, move time. And that's that's one of the things that that has really helped me in my career. And but but those those radio stations up there also had had a cousin moved in with us when he was eighteen to k He came up there to find work. He brought and the first night he was there, I heard for the first time, I heard the mamas and the papas, I heard, I heard the birds, and I heard Don't walk Away, and I remember that song. I mean the first night he was there, and I just my mind was blown again. You know, it was like I was really I paid attention to music. You know, It's like the different music that I would hear, like like what he brought in the house and what I heard on the radio from Cleveland and and all of these things. So it was, uh, it was quite an education, you know, before I even really put the bar to the strings and got serious enough about playing that. I loved music before I ever really got into playing it so much.

Listen, you listen, and you you learn the song fast, you come up with a hook, and you do all of these things as fast as possible in order to you know, move time. And that's that's one of the things that that has really helped me in my career. And but but those those radio stations up there also had had a cousin moved in with us when he was eighteen to k He came up there to find work. He brought and the first night he was there, I heard for the first time, I heard the mamas and the papas, I heard, I heard the birds, and I heard Don't walk Away, and I remember that song. I mean the first night he was there, and I just my mind was blown again. You know, it was like I was really I paid attention to music. You know, It's like the different music that I would hear, like like what he brought in the house and what I heard on the radio from Cleveland and and all of these things. So it was, uh, it was quite an education, you know, before I even really put the bar to the strings and got serious enough about playing that. I loved music before I ever really got into playing it so much.

Okay, so you hear flatt and scrugs. You hear the dough bro? What age are you you decide to play? How do you get a dough bro? How do you learn how to play?

Okay, so you hear flatt and scrugs. You hear the dough bro? What age are you you decide to play? How do you get a dough bro? How do you learn how to play?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Good, good question. Because I had a silver tone guitar. It was a pretty cheap model that I'd gotten for Christmas, and and we raised the strings.

Good, good question. Because I had a silver tone guitar. It was a pretty cheap model that I'd gotten for Christmas, and and we raised the strings.

Up on that.

Up on that.

And one one day I came home from school and my guitar was on the top of the stack of guitars that we had, like guitars maybe.

And one one day I came home from school and my guitar was on the top of the stack of guitars that we had, like guitars maybe.

And the sun had come in and hit my case.

And the sun had come in and hit my case.

And as soon as I hit the last latch on the case and threw open the top of the case, my guitar just folded up like that. And so we had to go find something real for me to play, and that's when we went on the search to find a dough Bro But there were there weren't any. I mean, they had stopped building Doughbro guitars in the late thirties, so there weren't any. But the company was starting up again. My luck, in nineteen sixty seven, they started to produce guitars again and I got one of the first ones.

And as soon as I hit the last latch on the case and threw open the top of the case, my guitar just folded up like that. And so we had to go find something real for me to play, and that's when we went on the search to find a dough Bro But there were there weren't any. I mean, they had stopped building Doughbro guitars in the late thirties, so there weren't any. But the company was starting up again. My luck, in nineteen sixty seven, they started to produce guitars again and I got one of the first ones.

But I had to go to a music store and every time I'd ask them, they just look at me like I.

But I had to go to a music store and every time I'd ask them, they just look at me like I.

Had some strange disease if I say, do you have any Doughbro guitars? No, So finally I got a brochure and I ordered one from the brochure to the to a music store in Newton Fall, Ohio. And six months later that came in and I was just like, oh, this is what it sounds like, you know, because I, you know, I've been playing a guitar. It didn't it didn't create all of that sound that comes from the cover plate. And under that cover plate is a we didn't get to this before, but there's an aluminum spun aluminum cone. It's like a speaker cone. And and also there's a there's a bridge to connect the bridge to the rest of this contraption. There's a thing I like called a spider that sits down on that cone and contacts that cone at eight different places and transfers the sound down into the guitar back up out of the guitar. It was just an ingenious invention. I mean that there are two screens at the top of the guitar.

Had some strange disease if I say, do you have any Doughbro guitars? No, So finally I got a brochure and I ordered one from the brochure to the to a music store in Newton Fall, Ohio. And six months later that came in and I was just like, oh, this is what it sounds like, you know, because I, you know, I've been playing a guitar. It didn't it didn't create all of that sound that comes from the cover plate. And under that cover plate is a we didn't get to this before, but there's an aluminum spun aluminum cone. It's like a speaker cone. And and also there's a there's a bridge to connect the bridge to the rest of this contraption. There's a thing I like called a spider that sits down on that cone and contacts that cone at eight different places and transfers the sound down into the guitar back up out of the guitar. It was just an ingenious invention. I mean that there are two screens at the top of the guitar.

They're just like they're.

They're just like they're.

Screens, they're round screens, and that's where the bass of part of the guitar comes from because it's channeled in side. Sound is just like it's just like light or water. It bounces, it reflects, it does all of these things. And these guys figured out how to create the inside of the guitar so they could control the high end from the low end. And it just created two sources of sound in one guitar, and you could mix those two together depending on where you put the microphone as to how much high end or low end you get. And I think they got lucky on a whole lot of things. I mean, just the circumference of that metal spun aluminum cone that's never changed, and the cover plates never changed until I changed the design of it a few years ago. And I'm the guinea pig for a lot of things that come out for Dobo players, and I get them first and it works.

Screens, they're round screens, and that's where the bass of part of the guitar comes from because it's channeled in side. Sound is just like it's just like light or water. It bounces, it reflects, it does all of these things. And these guys figured out how to create the inside of the guitar so they could control the high end from the low end. And it just created two sources of sound in one guitar, and you could mix those two together depending on where you put the microphone as to how much high end or low end you get. And I think they got lucky on a whole lot of things. I mean, just the circumference of that metal spun aluminum cone that's never changed, and the cover plates never changed until I changed the design of it a few years ago. And I'm the guinea pig for a lot of things that come out for Dobo players, and I get them first and it works.

I keep it. It doesn't goes back to the whoever gave it to me.

I keep it. It doesn't goes back to the whoever gave it to me.

Okay, So what's the state of manufacture of Doughbro guitars today? How many people even make them?

Okay, So what's the state of manufacture of Doughbro guitars today? How many people even make them?

Doughbro does not make them. Gibson Guitars bought Dobro and uh, they were terrible guitars that they were making. And so I stepped in and said, can I can you build me a signature model? And I will. I'll come in with you. I'll go through all the pains and.

Doughbro does not make them. Gibson Guitars bought Dobro and uh, they were terrible guitars that they were making. And so I stepped in and said, can I can you build me a signature model? And I will. I'll come in with you. I'll go through all the pains and.

Everything with you to get this to be a good guitar that somebody can buy as an entry level guitar mahogany guitar at seventeen hundred dollars. And we all agreed on we could do that.

Everything with you to get this to be a good guitar that somebody can buy as an entry level guitar mahogany guitar at seventeen hundred dollars. And we all agreed on we could do that.

But the guitars, you know, if they have your name on them anywhere, everyone who buys it thinks you built it right. So they started they started doing some really wacky things with this dough Bro like out of line, or the the cone would not be or the cover plate would not be in the center of the guitar and be over to the left or to the right, and you can't play a guitar like that. And they were just bad. They were bad guitars. So Gibson and I got a divorce. So I went to there's a phelle named Tim Sheerhorn that makes excellent, excellent, excellent, like uh, the greatest uh resophonic guitars, doughbro guitars. Doughbrow has become a h. The word for doughbro now is ish resophonic.

But the guitars, you know, if they have your name on them anywhere, everyone who buys it thinks you built it right. So they started they started doing some really wacky things with this dough Bro like out of line, or the the cone would not be or the cover plate would not be in the center of the guitar and be over to the left or to the right, and you can't play a guitar like that. And they were just bad. They were bad guitars. So Gibson and I got a divorce. So I went to there's a phelle named Tim Sheerhorn that makes excellent, excellent, excellent, like uh, the greatest uh resophonic guitars, doughbro guitars. Doughbrow has become a h. The word for doughbro now is ish resophonic.

Uh.

Uh.

Doughbro was a name, like we started using it like kleenex. You know, anything that looked like that was a doughbro. And to me, I still call it that. I don't care if they sue me or not, but you know, I'm selling more of them for them than anybody else.

Doughbro was a name, like we started using it like kleenex. You know, anything that looked like that was a doughbro. And to me, I still call it that. I don't care if they sue me or not, but you know, I'm selling more of them for them than anybody else.

So that was really awful.

So that was really awful.

But UH, I got UH and and then I got into a deal here with the fellow named Paul Beard, who is in Hagerstown, Maryland and makes the best, the best reservantic guitars. I was with Tim Sheerhorn for a while, but he didn't want to build a signature model. So I got with Paul Beard and he did so we set to work on building a special one worked on the inside so the sound would move and be reflected in different ways, and the guitar sounded bigger. All the new builders are building what I would consider hybrids of the first of the original guitar at this point.

But UH, I got UH and and then I got into a deal here with the fellow named Paul Beard, who is in Hagerstown, Maryland and makes the best, the best reservantic guitars. I was with Tim Sheerhorn for a while, but he didn't want to build a signature model. So I got with Paul Beard and he did so we set to work on building a special one worked on the inside so the sound would move and be reflected in different ways, and the guitar sounded bigger. All the new builders are building what I would consider hybrids of the first of the original guitar at this point.

Okay, so let's assume I want to buy a Doughbro. Are these things now readily available? How many companies are making them? Is it still a very limited thing.

Okay, so let's assume I want to buy a Doughbro. Are these things now readily available? How many companies are making them? Is it still a very limited thing.

It's not a limited thing.

It's not a limited thing.

Nope, Through Paul Beard, there are several several entry level guitars you can buy and not spend a lot of money, you know, until you I tell people, if you're going to buy a Doughbro.

Nope, Through Paul Beard, there are several several entry level guitars you can buy and not spend a lot of money, you know, until you I tell people, if you're going to buy a Doughbro.

Don't don't go out and buy one like mine right away.

Don't don't go out and buy one like mine right away.

Go out and buy, you know, a lower level guitar to see if you really want to play this guitar. No, don't spend ten thousand dollars. If you can spend you know, fifteen hundred dollars and get something, And they're amazing guitars. If I'd have had one of those guitars when I was learning to play, I don't know what would have happened, but yeah, suddenly, suddenly dobro players can get They're readily available. You can find them all music stores. You know, you go in, you go into guitar center, you can find a dobro guitar, a resivantic guitar, and a slide and picks and all everything. And I've been in situations in the last couple of years. I had to fly from Charlotte to Portland, Oregon to open for Shock Tea. I was like one of the three people that got to open for John McLaughlin and Zakir Hussein and all of these amazing musicians. I mean, any of us in any genre of music, will we sort of bow down to what those guys have done because it's incredible music and no one else can play it like they can. So they were doing they're doing their fiftieth anniversary and probably the last run. I get out to Portland and I have no guitar, and I don't have a guitar the next day either when I'm supposed to play. So I put out an APB found another guitar that was my signature model that showed up that had everything on it that my guitar had. It was exact, you know, almost exact copy mine's been played for three years, so it sounded a little different. But that's happened to me about four or five times over the last two years. So I'm thinking, why do I even carry a guitar? Why don't I just announce where I'm going to be and have people show up and bring me one to play.

Go out and buy, you know, a lower level guitar to see if you really want to play this guitar. No, don't spend ten thousand dollars. If you can spend you know, fifteen hundred dollars and get something, And they're amazing guitars. If I'd have had one of those guitars when I was learning to play, I don't know what would have happened, but yeah, suddenly, suddenly dobro players can get They're readily available. You can find them all music stores. You know, you go in, you go into guitar center, you can find a dobro guitar, a resivantic guitar, and a slide and picks and all everything. And I've been in situations in the last couple of years. I had to fly from Charlotte to Portland, Oregon to open for Shock Tea. I was like one of the three people that got to open for John McLaughlin and Zakir Hussein and all of these amazing musicians. I mean, any of us in any genre of music, will we sort of bow down to what those guys have done because it's incredible music and no one else can play it like they can. So they were doing they're doing their fiftieth anniversary and probably the last run. I get out to Portland and I have no guitar, and I don't have a guitar the next day either when I'm supposed to play. So I put out an APB found another guitar that was my signature model that showed up that had everything on it that my guitar had. It was exact, you know, almost exact copy mine's been played for three years, so it sounded a little different. But that's happened to me about four or five times over the last two years. So I'm thinking, why do I even carry a guitar? Why don't I just announce where I'm going to be and have people show up and bring me one to play.

But nothing like playing your own guitar. But it's.

But nothing like playing your own guitar. But it's.

I don't know, you have to depend on so many people to get from A to B anymore. It's kind of it's a tough world out there for us traveling with one in one instrument.

I don't know, you have to depend on so many people to get from A to B anymore. It's kind of it's a tough world out there for us traveling with one in one instrument.

Okay, how'd you end up in the Pacific Northwest without a guitar?

Okay, how'd you end up in the Pacific Northwest without a guitar?

Airlines?

Airlines?

They just left it somewhere they you know, I have air tags and everything. I knew exactly where it was. It left, never left Charlotte, you know. And I needed it in Portland, Oregon like now, And so two hours before the show, my guitar showed up to so I was covered.

They just left it somewhere they you know, I have air tags and everything. I knew exactly where it was. It left, never left Charlotte, you know. And I needed it in Portland, Oregon like now, And so two hours before the show, my guitar showed up to so I was covered.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, So now you get a guitar, how do you learn how to play it?

Okay, So now you get a guitar, how do you learn how to play it?

That was when I was learning how to play. There was no one, I mean, there was no internet. There was the only way you could learn how to play something was listen to the person that played it, you know, and and find somebody who knows how to tune it. And I got lucky there. My dad's banjo player said, I think it's the first four strings of the banjo, and then I don't know.

That was when I was learning how to play. There was no one, I mean, there was no internet. There was the only way you could learn how to play something was listen to the person that played it, you know, and and find somebody who knows how to tune it. And I got lucky there. My dad's banjo player said, I think it's the first four strings of the banjo, and then I don't know.

What's up after that.

What's up after that.

So we just went with what the tuning that I have, and I got lucky, you know, And I just started listening to Flatt and Scrugs records and trying to copy everything.

So we just went with what the tuning that I have, and I got lucky, you know, And I just started listening to Flatt and Scrugs records and trying to copy everything.

You know.

You know.

I couldn't slow my my record player would not slow down any farther than thirty three, so I had to put something heavy on it to slow it down so I could hear the intervals between notes and what notes they were and try to figure out where they were. I mean, I'm totally self taught. I had nobody to tell me anything ever, And and it wasn't until much later in the eighties when there were started to become homespundings and stuff like that, and teaching teaching tools to teach all instruments, and Dobro was included in those. But it was it was hard because there were plenty of people could tell you how to play guitar or manlin or benjo or a violin, but dobro nobody, and uh so we were all just kind of listening to each other. And then you'd meet to another dobro player and it was like you'd learned a foreign language, gone to that country and tried it out on them and they actually understood you.

I couldn't slow my my record player would not slow down any farther than thirty three, so I had to put something heavy on it to slow it down so I could hear the intervals between notes and what notes they were and try to figure out where they were. I mean, I'm totally self taught. I had nobody to tell me anything ever, And and it wasn't until much later in the eighties when there were started to become homespundings and stuff like that, and teaching teaching tools to teach all instruments, and Dobro was included in those. But it was it was hard because there were plenty of people could tell you how to play guitar or manlin or benjo or a violin, but dobro nobody, and uh so we were all just kind of listening to each other. And then you'd meet to another dobro player and it was like you'd learned a foreign language, gone to that country and tried it out on them and they actually understood you.

You know. It was that kind of a great feeling.

You know. It was that kind of a great feeling.

And and the dobro community was a very very close knit community because there weren't that many of us, but now there are. There are like one thousand percent more Doughbro players now than there were when I first went on the road.

And and the dobro community was a very very close knit community because there weren't that many of us, but now there are. There are like one thousand percent more Doughbro players now than there were when I first went on the road.

Okay, so you're learning how to play the conventional stream for people from your demo. My demo is They then formed bands, They played high school gigs, et cetera. What did you do?

Okay, so you're learning how to play the conventional stream for people from your demo. My demo is They then formed bands, They played high school gigs, et cetera. What did you do?

Yeah, I played it.

Yeah, I played it.

I played in bars with my dad's bluegrass band. I you know, we didn't play behind chicken wire, but we needed it a few times. We were playing in in bars around around Warren, Ohio where uh we played in one bar that was right across the street from Alcoa, And when the midnight shift from Alcoa let out, those guys all came in that bar right across the street, and we already had our our regular clientele in there, dancing, you know, and and uh and making them so much noise we could barely hear ourselves.

I played in bars with my dad's bluegrass band. I you know, we didn't play behind chicken wire, but we needed it a few times. We were playing in in bars around around Warren, Ohio where uh we played in one bar that was right across the street from Alcoa, And when the midnight shift from Alcoa let out, those guys all came in that bar right across the street, and we already had our our regular clientele in there, dancing, you know, and and uh and making them so much noise we could barely hear ourselves.

That was it.

That was it.

And but uh, yeah, I I when they my friends didn't know what I was doing. I didn't tell anybody that I was a musician. I didn't tell anybody that I played bluegrass music, country music, rock and roll. Didn't tell them anything until my senior year, a bunch of my pals found out where I was playing. They knew I played. In fact, one of my friends told me, he said, show and tell. One time you brought your dough brow to school and the teacher gave you a c And I thought, well, I just don't think she understood what I was about. And but yeah, there was nobody and and the band teacher for the high school found out that I was a musician after that.

And but uh, yeah, I I when they my friends didn't know what I was doing. I didn't tell anybody that I was a musician. I didn't tell anybody that I played bluegrass music, country music, rock and roll. Didn't tell them anything until my senior year, a bunch of my pals found out where I was playing. They knew I played. In fact, one of my friends told me, he said, show and tell. One time you brought your dough brow to school and the teacher gave you a c And I thought, well, I just don't think she understood what I was about. And but yeah, there was nobody and and the band teacher for the high school found out that I was a musician after that.

They told him and he said, why didn't you want to? Why could Why didn't you play in the band?

They told him and he said, why didn't you want to? Why could Why didn't you play in the band?

And I said, it's not the same it's not the same kind of music, and it's it's a completely different world from what you guys are doing. Marching on a football field and stuff.

And I said, it's not the same it's not the same kind of music, and it's it's a completely different world from what you guys are doing. Marching on a football field and stuff.

I'm not. I don't do that. I play for I play for live people, and who.

I'm not. I don't do that. I play for I play for live people, and who.

Are you know, applauding and and you know, I'm playing for fun.

Are you know, applauding and and you know, I'm playing for fun.

Really, I'm playing for fun.

Really, I'm playing for fun.

And and it was all fun until I got up to be about fifteen sixteen years old, and then it was then I got scouted by a professional bluegrass band.

And and it was all fun until I got up to be about fifteen sixteen years old, and then it was then I got scouted by a professional bluegrass band.

Okay, going sideways for a second. Not everybody got sophisticated. Please define bluegrass music.

Okay, going sideways for a second. Not everybody got sophisticated. Please define bluegrass music.

To define bluegrass music is a tough thing to do. I mean, nobody agrees. But one thing that I think we can all agree on is there was no bluegrass music until Bill Monroe stepped on stage with Earl Scruggs.

To define bluegrass music is a tough thing to do. I mean, nobody agrees. But one thing that I think we can all agree on is there was no bluegrass music until Bill Monroe stepped on stage with Earl Scruggs.

And Lester Flat And that's the night bluegrass was born.

And Lester Flat And that's the night bluegrass was born.

It was right here at the Grand Ole Opry in Nashville in nineteen forty seven, and Earl Scruggs stepped up to the microphone and played something so fast nobody had ever heard anything like that before, and he got I think they got five standing ovations, and they played the song like five times, and that had never been done at the Opry, you know, other than Hank Williams doing something like that, nobody had ever done anything like that before. But bluegrass music is basically a basic bluegrass band is comprised of a guitar, a banjo, a violin, fiddle, mandolin, and a bass and then Dobro is sort of the stepchild of all of that. Josh Graves made it work for Flatten Scruggs, gave them a broader audience than they had because.

It was right here at the Grand Ole Opry in Nashville in nineteen forty seven, and Earl Scruggs stepped up to the microphone and played something so fast nobody had ever heard anything like that before, and he got I think they got five standing ovations, and they played the song like five times, and that had never been done at the Opry, you know, other than Hank Williams doing something like that, nobody had ever done anything like that before. But bluegrass music is basically a basic bluegrass band is comprised of a guitar, a banjo, a violin, fiddle, mandolin, and a bass and then Dobro is sort of the stepchild of all of that. Josh Graves made it work for Flatten Scruggs, gave them a broader audience than they had because.

Of his blues influence.

Of his blues influence.

Just the instrument sort of inspires a blues atmosphere, you know when he and he was from an area of the country that that and he learned from an old African American man who hung out around around Knoxville, Tennessee, And so when he joined Flatten Scruggs, there was this whole blues thing that happened to them that had never happened before, and they used it and that's why they were such a popular band with so many people. But bluegrass they didn't they didn't even say they were a bluegrass band because Bill Monroe was a bluegrass band, and it was just they didn't want to be called bluegrass because they thought it was limiting Bill Monroe and the vocals. In bluegrass, the vocals are pitched kind of high because Bill Monroe sang everything in it, mostly in B and in higher keys than most men did so, And so I think that that kind of explains bluegrass is different than country music in that it's mostly acoustic as well. We've all adapted pickups and all kinds of things to our acoustic instruments at this point, so it's no longer purely purely acoustic. But that was the only way we could play in great, big places without feedback and things like that was to sort of, you know, make our instruments, adapt our instruments to the situation. But bluegrass music, I don't that that's pretty much how I could explain bluegrass music is the parts, and it comes from it comes from the South, it comes from gospel music, comes from rag time, it comes from the blues, comes from the field hollers. Gospel music is a huge, huge part of bluegrass music. And and just the sentiment, more of the sentiment than that, like I believe and you must believe, it's it's it's there are songs that have been sung for a long time, and and bluegrass music is a music that's very stays true to its roots as true to its roots as it possible, and when it goes out of bounds once in a while, and then it'll get pulled back.

Just the instrument sort of inspires a blues atmosphere, you know when he and he was from an area of the country that that and he learned from an old African American man who hung out around around Knoxville, Tennessee, And so when he joined Flatten Scruggs, there was this whole blues thing that happened to them that had never happened before, and they used it and that's why they were such a popular band with so many people. But bluegrass they didn't they didn't even say they were a bluegrass band because Bill Monroe was a bluegrass band, and it was just they didn't want to be called bluegrass because they thought it was limiting Bill Monroe and the vocals. In bluegrass, the vocals are pitched kind of high because Bill Monroe sang everything in it, mostly in B and in higher keys than most men did so, And so I think that that kind of explains bluegrass is different than country music in that it's mostly acoustic as well. We've all adapted pickups and all kinds of things to our acoustic instruments at this point, so it's no longer purely purely acoustic. But that was the only way we could play in great, big places without feedback and things like that was to sort of, you know, make our instruments, adapt our instruments to the situation. But bluegrass music, I don't that that's pretty much how I could explain bluegrass music is the parts, and it comes from it comes from the South, it comes from gospel music, comes from rag time, it comes from the blues, comes from the field hollers. Gospel music is a huge, huge part of bluegrass music. And and just the sentiment, more of the sentiment than that, like I believe and you must believe, it's it's it's there are songs that have been sung for a long time, and and bluegrass music is a music that's very stays true to its roots as true to its roots as it possible, and when it goes out of bounds once in a while, and then it'll get pulled back.

Okay for the uneducated, Where is the line between bluegrass and traditional country.

Okay for the uneducated, Where is the line between bluegrass and traditional country.

There's a very fine line between bluegrass music and traditional country. Traditional country, you know that was played in the fifties and sixties was very much related to bluegrass music other than they introduced electric instruments and drums, and that's pretty much the difference. That's the difference. They were singing about the same they were all singing about the same subject matter pretty much, you know. But bluegrass music is a music that came from porches, you know, and people just playing in the country just to pass the time. So did old time country music. But country music is a more and has always been more of a commercial has more of a commercial side to it, and bluegrass, you know, because it came from a you know, a poor, poor background, didn't really I don't think it expected much for a long time and until it learned how to play the country music game, you know, until we actually monetized our music.

There's a very fine line between bluegrass music and traditional country. Traditional country, you know that was played in the fifties and sixties was very much related to bluegrass music other than they introduced electric instruments and drums, and that's pretty much the difference. That's the difference. They were singing about the same they were all singing about the same subject matter pretty much, you know. But bluegrass music is a music that came from porches, you know, and people just playing in the country just to pass the time. So did old time country music. But country music is a more and has always been more of a commercial has more of a commercial side to it, and bluegrass, you know, because it came from a you know, a poor, poor background, didn't really I don't think it expected much for a long time and until it learned how to play the country music game, you know, until we actually monetized our music.

So tell me about getting scouted.

So tell me about getting scouted.

I was playing with my dad's band.

I was playing with my dad's band.

In nineteen seventy two, playing at a festival with it with my dad's band. And also there was a band there who was sort of the cream of the bluegrass crop at that point, was called the Country Gentleman, And they were based out of Washington, d C. And there was this whole white collar bluegrass situation going on in the Seldom scene and bands like that around Washington, d C. But the Country Gentlemen. I looked out we were playing. I was playing with my dad. We were playing the set, and I looked out and I saw one of the guys, Charlie Waller over to my left. I saw Bill Emerson, the banjo player to my out in the center, and I mean, it was like being scouted as a baseball player. And they came up to me like right after that show and ask if I could leave with them that night and go to the next show. And I said, guys, I gotta I gotta go back to school. I mean, I need to go to I need to go to It'll be my junior year in high school. I need to go back to school. So the next summer after that, after my junior year, I went with them. I went out on the road for that summer and I missed. I missed my last my senior year of football because I was out running around with the bluegrass band all over the country instead of having my spring training with my football team. So I didn't play football that year. And but I think it all worked out.

In nineteen seventy two, playing at a festival with it with my dad's band. And also there was a band there who was sort of the cream of the bluegrass crop at that point, was called the Country Gentleman, And they were based out of Washington, d C. And there was this whole white collar bluegrass situation going on in the Seldom scene and bands like that around Washington, d C. But the Country Gentlemen. I looked out we were playing. I was playing with my dad. We were playing the set, and I looked out and I saw one of the guys, Charlie Waller over to my left. I saw Bill Emerson, the banjo player to my out in the center, and I mean, it was like being scouted as a baseball player. And they came up to me like right after that show and ask if I could leave with them that night and go to the next show. And I said, guys, I gotta I gotta go back to school. I mean, I need to go to I need to go to It'll be my junior year in high school. I need to go back to school. So the next summer after that, after my junior year, I went with them. I went out on the road for that summer and I missed. I missed my last my senior year of football because I was out running around with the bluegrass band all over the country instead of having my spring training with my football team. So I didn't play football that year. And but I think it all worked out.

Okay. Uh.

Okay. Uh.

I don't think I was going to be a professional football player anyway. But I had a chance to go to as a as an English major, to go to the University of Maryland, and I and I, I was out on the road with country gentlemen, walking through a field and listen to all of these people play. After this, after the concerts were all over, and people would camp at these big bluegrass festivals and they and at night bonfires rose up and there were jam sessions everywhere. You could just walk around and listen to different bands play, people play.

I don't think I was going to be a professional football player anyway. But I had a chance to go to as a as an English major, to go to the University of Maryland, and I and I, I was out on the road with country gentlemen, walking through a field and listen to all of these people play. After this, after the concerts were all over, and people would camp at these big bluegrass festivals and they and at night bonfires rose up and there were jam sessions everywhere. You could just walk around and listen to different bands play, people play.

And I thought, you know, this is this. I love this.

And I thought, you know, this is this. I love this.

I want to do this forever. I wanted to be like this forever. Well it hasn't been but.

I want to do this forever. I wanted to be like this forever. Well it hasn't been but.

Music. It was just music.

Music. It was just music.

It just made me, made me whole, It finished me, and it uh and I and I thought, you know, I I think I would rather do this. I think I'm better at this than then I would be as an English teacher or you know, reading late literature for the rest of my life. So I made a choice to stay on the road and become a musician, a road musician, and hopefully a recording musician someday.

It just made me, made me whole, It finished me, and it uh and I and I thought, you know, I I think I would rather do this. I think I'm better at this than then I would be as an English teacher or you know, reading late literature for the rest of my life. So I made a choice to stay on the road and become a musician, a road musician, and hopefully a recording musician someday.

Okay, you said you hoped that it would be like this festival with bonfires and jam sessions, but it wasn't. What was it like?

Okay, you said you hoped that it would be like this festival with bonfires and jam sessions, but it wasn't. What was it like?

For a long time, it was, and there was a there was There was a sort of a just an era where the festivals were more family oriented and people would go there to meet other people that played bluegrass because it was still a sort of a rare commodity to run across somebody who even knew what it was. And as it as it built, you know, and then that you know, things things like the nitty gritty dirt bands Circle, the Unbroken Record made a big difference. Then later on, oh, brother made a big difference. And but uh, it didn't. When I say it didn't stay that way, was because it became the festivals got bigger, they got more harder to manage the people, you know, and and then all of a sudden, you know, every festival thought it should be Woodstock, and so there would be thousands of people the motorcycle gang, the Pagans, whoever showed up would be the security for the festival.

For a long time, it was, and there was a there was There was a sort of a just an era where the festivals were more family oriented and people would go there to meet other people that played bluegrass because it was still a sort of a rare commodity to run across somebody who even knew what it was. And as it as it built, you know, and then that you know, things things like the nitty gritty dirt bands Circle, the Unbroken Record made a big difference. Then later on, oh, brother made a big difference. And but uh, it didn't. When I say it didn't stay that way, was because it became the festivals got bigger, they got more harder to manage the people, you know, and and then all of a sudden, you know, every festival thought it should be Woodstock, and so there would be thousands of people the motorcycle gang, the Pagans, whoever showed up would be the security for the festival.

And that just got it got too crazy, he got out of hand, and uh.

And that just got it got too crazy, he got out of hand, and uh.

And anymore, you can go to festivals, and there are some festivals that still you can find people jamming out in the after at night after after dark, but they're very far a few and far between anymore. And the festivals really aren't set up that way anymore either. There's still a lot of camping, but there's you know, I don't know. Uh, we've just changed as a society. We've we've changed. We're more private, I guess, I don't know. Uh, but there's less jamming in the campground. But I don't know. Uh, it's it's just a different time. People more When it was more of a family event, you saw a lot more people get out, and you saw a lot more people get out and jam, you know, and it was it was more local, felt more local.

And anymore, you can go to festivals, and there are some festivals that still you can find people jamming out in the after at night after after dark, but they're very far a few and far between anymore. And the festivals really aren't set up that way anymore either. There's still a lot of camping, but there's you know, I don't know. Uh, we've just changed as a society. We've we've changed. We're more private, I guess, I don't know. Uh, but there's less jamming in the campground. But I don't know. Uh, it's it's just a different time. People more When it was more of a family event, you saw a lot more people get out, and you saw a lot more people get out and jam, you know, and it was it was more local, felt more local.

Okay, So you take the path to be a musician as opposed to continue your education. So what happens are you on the road with the band, do you switch bands? How does your career ensue?

Okay, So you take the path to be a musician as opposed to continue your education. So what happens are you on the road with the band, do you switch bands? How does your career ensue?

Well, I played with the country Gentlemen, for a couple of years, and uh, after my after my junior year of high school, I went out and played the summer with him. Then I came back, finished my scene your year of high school, turned eighteen, graduated from high school, and.

Well, I played with the country Gentlemen, for a couple of years, and uh, after my after my junior year of high school, I went out and played the summer with him. Then I came back, finished my scene your year of high school, turned eighteen, graduated from high school, and.

Moved to Washington, d c. All in the same week.

Moved to Washington, d c. All in the same week.

And that's that's when I was you know, it's not it wasn't too late to turn back now, but it was like I decided this is what I was going to do, and moved down there, got an apartment and started working full time music, being on the road, you know, traveling in a bus and being on the road, and I met other musicians, you know, through through the course of just playing festivals and and just you know, meeting other musicians. And I started working with this guitar player named Tony Rice who was just a phenomena, and Ricky Skagg's the same, and we I got into a band. I was hired by a fello named J. D. Crowe, banjo player in Lexington, Kentucky, who just he had this band with Ricky and Tony, and it was like it was like a step up for me. It was a musical step up. And I followed those things. I followed those opportunities where I thought, I can be a better musician here, I can learn something here, you know. And it wasn't about money to me. It was about it was about learning. It was about learning to be a musician in all aspects of it.

And that's that's when I was you know, it's not it wasn't too late to turn back now, but it was like I decided this is what I was going to do, and moved down there, got an apartment and started working full time music, being on the road, you know, traveling in a bus and being on the road, and I met other musicians, you know, through through the course of just playing festivals and and just you know, meeting other musicians. And I started working with this guitar player named Tony Rice who was just a phenomena, and Ricky Skagg's the same, and we I got into a band. I was hired by a fello named J. D. Crowe, banjo player in Lexington, Kentucky, who just he had this band with Ricky and Tony, and it was like it was like a step up for me. It was a musical step up. And I followed those things. I followed those opportunities where I thought, I can be a better musician here, I can learn something here, you know. And it wasn't about money to me. It was about it was about learning. It was about learning to be a musician in all aspects of it.

And these guys.

And these guys.

Gave me a real foot up and it just opened my mind to a lot of other different kinds of music. Even I heard Weather Report and Chick Korea the same day, and that blew my mind. I thought, WHOA. I thought I knew music pretty well, but this is something I've never heard before.

Gave me a real foot up and it just opened my mind to a lot of other different kinds of music. Even I heard Weather Report and Chick Korea the same day, and that blew my mind. I thought, WHOA. I thought I knew music pretty well, but this is something I've never heard before.

I mean, this is brand news.

I mean, this is brand news.

So I started, you know, my forays into that area with David Grisman on the West Coast and meeting all these different musicians all over the country. And that's when music, the bluegrass music started to change, started to take in a lot of jazz elements, a lot of blues elements.

So I started, you know, my forays into that area with David Grisman on the West Coast and meeting all these different musicians all over the country. And that's when music, the bluegrass music started to change, started to take in a lot of jazz elements, a lot of blues elements.

You know.

You know.

It allowed itself for these things to pour in because we have these renaissance periods. All music does, but I notice some more in bluegrass music because right now we're in one right where Chris Deely and Molly Tuttle and Sierra Hull, Sierra Farrell, Meuni it's an explosion of brand new talent. And I think that happens every fifteen twenty years. I was in one of those classes. You know, it's like it happens.

It allowed itself for these things to pour in because we have these renaissance periods. All music does, but I notice some more in bluegrass music because right now we're in one right where Chris Deely and Molly Tuttle and Sierra Hull, Sierra Farrell, Meuni it's an explosion of brand new talent. And I think that happens every fifteen twenty years. I was in one of those classes. You know, it's like it happens.

Music is.

Music is.

Like all music starts at twelve o'clock. If you go around the dial, it starts. It starts with roots music. You know, something terrible happens in the world roots music twelve o'clock, and then it goes around the dial and it gets shinier and shinier, and by the time it gets back around about eleven o'clock, everybody's going, oh man, this is too much. We can't deal with this anymore. And then something happens and we're back fruits music start over. And if you I've been here for in Nashville for at least three of those occasions.

Like all music starts at twelve o'clock. If you go around the dial, it starts. It starts with roots music. You know, something terrible happens in the world roots music twelve o'clock, and then it goes around the dial and it gets shinier and shinier, and by the time it gets back around about eleven o'clock, everybody's going, oh man, this is too much. We can't deal with this anymore. And then something happens and we're back fruits music start over. And if you I've been here for in Nashville for at least three of those occasions.

Uh.

Uh.

When I first moved to town, we were leaving what was called the uh was it called the uh uh oh it was. It was Mickey Gilly and every and when everybody had everybody had a mechanical bull. It was the urban Cowboys scare. That's what we called it. It was like the folk scare that happened in the sixties and then and then the urban Cowboys scare, and then we had the Broe Country scare and we you know, but but when I came to town is about the time. Uh then Ricky, when I moved to Nashville, Ricky Ricky Skaggs hit, uh, uh Randy Travis hit and uh, Emmy Lou was hitting. And it was the traditional country movement. And I was here at the perfect time to belong to that, to be part of that, and that really gave me, gave me a foot up on becoming a more of a musician, you know. Then then I went out on the road with Emmy Lou Harris, and I saw how these huge shows move buses, trucks, you know, lots of musicians, you know, lots of guests, you know, all these things had all works and and that was a different time, you know, and then that saw its time go away, you know. And there have been different scares of Barbara Mandrel scare or the you know, all of these different times in country music where we're in one right now. We're in one right now where I went to fill out my CMA ballot the other.