In the nearly five months since a jury found Sam Bankman-Fried guilty, a narrative has started to take shape in crypto circles that the business model behind FTX was sound and that SBF would have been successful had he not dipped into customer funds.

But on the eve of his sentencing, Bloomberg’s Max Chafkin and Zeke Faux join The Big Take Podcast to discuss how they found — after interviewing insiders and carefully examining trial testimony and thousands of pages of documents — that fraud was at the very core of FTX’s meteoric rise.