That's Messed Up: An SVU PodcastKara and Liza cover “Lessons Learned” (Season 14, Episode 8), The Horace Mann School sex abuse scandal, and talk with star of stage and screen, Anthony Rapp.
SOURCES:
WHAT WOULD SISTER PEG DO:
“The Horace Mann School’s Secret History of Sexual Abuse” by Amos Kamil
Next week’s episode will be “Collateral Damages” (Season 17, Episode 15).
Of the law and order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.
We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on. These are our stories, done done. Hello, that's messed up an SVU podcast. My name is Lisa Traeger and my name is Kara Clank. I don't know why I did last name, so that's wild. But yeah, every week we talk about an episode of SVU, the true crime it's based on. And we have an amazing guest from the episode. And we're fresh off of bead Wong week and Kara Clank gave birth to baby Oscar, So Kara give us the scoop.
Well, first of all, thank you to all the listeners who have left me very sweet messages welcoming baby Oscar into the world and being excited to see him with Lisa and wondering how Rosie's reacting to him. That's what everyone, everybody.
The first question is has Rosie chucked him across the kitchen?
So far, there's only been one attempt on his life and involving a cell phone.
But he's fine, and she's really just.
Mostly ignoring him but also being very sweet and like kissing his head and touching him, being like.
He's soft, you know. So it's very cute and he's.
A good baby, and I'm getting sleep and everything's good.
No, it's really wild. She's at So what I'd like to tell everyone is at four o two pm last week we got a message from karaen the group chat saying welcome baby Oscar. Five oh five pm. I did have an email about the podcast, so people were like, are you guys taking a hiatus? I go no, no, no, no, no. She is doing tasks from the birthing room. So we are on track. Baby.
It's really boring in there, you guys, It's really boring. Once the baby comes out, it was boring. So I had to send some emails.
And he's cute and teeny and I like to hold him. And then the funniest thing is that Jared, Kara's husband's mom sent a package of nuts, which I think is the funniest gift ever.
Yes, she's because of nuts. She's a big fan of nuts dot com. She has sent us two packages from them in the past year. This is not an ad, but if you're interested nuts dot com, we have basically killed almost all the nuts. The package did have chocolate covered espresso beans in.
It, and Rosie was like, I want it, I want and I want it. I was like, let her have one.
She'll hate it because, like, I don't like the taste of coffee, so I couldn't imagine a two.
Year old like she loved it. So now we're.
Trying desperately to keep chocolate covered caffeine balls away from my two year old child.
So wish us luck, pray for us. Well, maybe Aunt Lisa will sneak her son to keep her loving me. Yeah, and in case anyone's wondering.
Lisa's two week or so trip to New York did nothing but make Rosie's heart grow fonder. She literally has been asking about her stop. I picked her up at school the other day and she was like, we're going to Lisa's house. I'm like, a place you've never been before. Sure, We're going to Lisa's house.
She would love my corn stewol honestly, and I think she'd have fun in the garage.
She would love everything in your house. You have so many chochkeys, she would ruin it. I can never let her come over.
I have to teach her backgammon when she's old enough to. Oh, I bet she'd be good at it. That's such an aunt, like an aunt tipping I feel like. And then non baby news. Someone one of our friends sent to the group chat a TikTok I don't remember the name. I'm sure we'll find it and share it whatever. Yeah, but the basically the TikTok prompt was, what is something that's happened in your town that would make an amazing movie? Did you watch it or did you skip this one? Yes? I did, I did? I did. It was amazing. So this woman basically this man in her town showed up to the police department pretending to be a federal agent that was there overseeing stuff, and they let him stay. He was not an officer. He ended up beating children and holding like a gun to a three year old's head, totally like clusing menacing things throughout the town. And then a person in the town was like, this isn't right. Had to go to the police department and go, hey, guys, this isn't an officer. Like they let just a guy show up and be an officer and terrorize the town.
Yeah, he told them, He told them they had like won a grant and like for like a new officer or something like that, and they didn't they didn't even question it.
They were like, great, here's your gun and your badge.
And he committed a woman to a mental institution like he is like sounds evil and he was essentially doing it as like a prank to like see.
If he could get away with it.
And I think it was a couple of years or something he was on the force in this town.
More than a day. Is too much, like honestly, because you know, we do get some people that are like, you're too mean about cops and it's like they do seem bad at their job a general background check. I mean, are there not like if you let a loose guy show up and terrorize your town and then once the guy like put a gun to the three year old's head, you would think it'd be like, let's get him in trouble, but they were like business as usual, We see no problems here, put the woman in the mental institution and hit that kid like it is wild. So thank you for TikTok.
Yeah, we'll definitely post that TikTok on our Instagram because it is wild. So Liza you are also back from New York. Welcome back to LA It's been so fat back in the town.
I also surprised my parents in Chicago got my Domino games in beat them fully, beat my mom at backam, and my dad did beat me at backgammon, which was upsetting. But they have not They told me they have not played at all since I left because I terrorized them, like I played with them so much they needed a break. Saw the dogs, Saw the kids. It was very fun. But my interesting story is I get into the uber at Lax, which is a fucking nightmare. The fact that I used to read about Lax and US Weekly and be like, oh my god, when I can be in Lax, I'm going to be Paris Hilton. And then you show up and you're like this janky ass place is where the celebs fly into. I'm like shocked. I'm shocked. So I'm with my uber driver. He asks how my night is. It's like one thirty in the morning. I go, dude, I'm flying on. I'm not this. You know how I'm doing and he goes, okay. I say, I like the song on the radio. I'm not a full you know, cunt, And then we're driving, there's an accident, so I'm in traffic and I'm like, I want to be feel grateful, like obviously someone's going through pain. I'm like, I just want to get off this highway. I don't know, you know, and he goes, Honestly, I've had a rough night. I caught my fiancee cheating on me just a few hours ago. That's why I can't sleep, and that's why I'm driving right now. And then I have to be at work and my other job at five am. But I can't go home. And I caught her fucking some guy in my bed, in my house. It's truly I can't. And then you were like, I said, why didn't you tell me this sooner?
Sir?
We now we only have six minutes to discuss all of this. But I gave him good advice, I said, He goes, I don't know if we should do this or that or that. I go, you can do whatever you want, and do what you want, not what you think you should do. Dump the bitch, put her on hold. I don't know. But I also, are you lying to get more tips? I just don't know. Oh my god. But I did tip him well that's.
I mean I normally am like I don't want to talk, but that's he needed. He needed ju Lisa. I feel like, uh, that was a divine force that put you two together in that car. I think he needed your advice.
He needed Yeah, you know, he did need me. And then I told him where to get tacos late at night. You know, I was like, if you're like, if you want to eat your feelings, bro, Charlie's Tacos is the place to be.
I really hope he uh he took your advice and talkoed it up. Wait, but did you also talk about when in Chicago, how you went to drag Race live.
Oh my, this is amazing. Yeah, so I went to drive in drag Race. We saw got mik, we saw plastics, Kimchi uh like vanj I mean I can name them all. Naomi's legs are even more gorgeous in person. It's like fucking insane. But it was pouring rain and we did run out. I mean, it's worth getting soaked to see Got Mek Do Britney spears fucking heaven. But there was a giant, giant puddle in front of our car, and we just kept seeing people ruin their lives like their nights were. And then we opened our windows, it would go, there's a puddle. Stop Like we did try to help people, but you know, people don't register your shouting at them. We saw people in slides, flip flops, heels, dresses like no coachs just enter this puddle and then instead of exiting out. I don't think they've realized how big the puddle was. The puddle was probably like twelve feet wide, oh my gosh, and like a few inches deep, like mid calf deep, and people were just going through the puddle and it was kind of a fun show. Also, I was on a rooftop in New York and people kept getting engaged. Well, one person got engaged in front of us, and I was like, it would be funny if that was just like people getting engaged in front of us. So I saw people walk into a puddle over and over and get engaged in front of me in this trip. So it was kind of great. It's so great.
The world is opening back up, nature is healing, and you are watching people.
Yeah, I peed in the streets of New York. I saw a man shit in the streets. Yeah, I had a piece of pizza in the street. I did a lot of street times. It's fun in New York. Wait, I just wanted the listeners to know that. Just so you know, Kara has a new recording studio that she's set up in their garage and there is a giant framed Frankenstein behind her.
So if I just I want to shar you with my husband, I am sharing you with my husband, who is a role playing game enthusiast and so everything behind me is very nerdy, very call of Cthulhu, dungeons and dragons for his stream of blood thing that he does.
So oh and I saw a celebrity in New York. I saw Amar Stott a Meyer at lunch with his agent. I can assume it was his agent for lots of reasons. But I did wave at him and he waved back. But it was exciting. So any NBA fans, that was Lisa.
I just need you to know, since you're back on the celebrity train and you brought up LAX, celebrities have their own terminal at LAX.
I just need you to know that.
And they pay it, okay, oh really yeah, they pay an annual thing for their own car service and all this. My friend is in charge of security for it, So there is a glamorous side of Lax.
You're just not in it.
Yeah, we just don't get to go to it because I put it on the list, put it on the fucking vision board. We need to get in that lax.
Because I saw Kathy Bates on a flight one since she was definitely whisked away in a different direction than I was. But Lisa Reno, me and her were just in the lounge, so I don't know. I don't I wonder if Lisa's not paying the subscription fee. Interesting, and we have New Beverly Hills, New New York. We're watching Hacks. I mean we got to start the show.
Yeah, but really quick, I want to say. Speaking of drag Race, we just we just announced on our social media. I know this episode this is you're not going to hear this by then, it'll be a few days, but go back and check our social media. We have announced our live show. We're doing a live show June sixteenth.
We're so excited.
We're going to have drag Race All Star winner and SVU super fan Shay Kole. We're also going to have comedians like Joe Kim Booster, Lindsay Adams, Jamel Johnson, and Temmy McNamara. These are all our friends and amazing comics who also love SVU.
They're all going to be part of it. It's going to be so fun.
Games Trivia recapping an episode, there's a special Q and A you can buy tickets for, so go to Thats Messed Up Live dot com and get your tickets asap. We can't wait to see all of you guys on that. And then before we jump into today's episode, which is Lessons Learned, I just wanted to mention that we did record this episode a little bit in advance due to my you know, bringing a human into the world and such and different different things. And this episode does star legendary actor Charles Groden. We did record this before he recently passed away, So we just wanted to let you know that we're not just glossing over the fact that this amazing actor passed away.
We just didn't know when we recorded. So now let's get going. Okay, So this is Lessons Learned, Season fourteen, Episode eight. Any initial thoughts.
Kara, I mean I knew what this was based on immediately, Like when I first saw that, like even the like the cold open of this episode, I.
Was like, I know where this is going. So you know, you just have like I feel once you when I feel when you lived in New York, you were on top of every single crime that ever happened.
I was like reading the free paper, like reading stuff. And my sister was really big into also this like Upper west Side blog and would like send me. My sister loves crime too and would like send me articles all the time.
So yeah, we were like on top of what was up. And I remember that. No, it's very impressive. And the episode starts with the back of an old man's head walking into the unit. Am I where is the lie? No, there's no lines. It's just a funny cinematic setup by Lisa Traeger. He has like white hair, and it's just super busy night, so we're assuming it's a Saturday night or something. There's people yelling, there's a domestic violence couple, someone gets kicked in the nuts, there's a woman in leopard, there's a bleeding woman. Things are a muk. I felt like it.
Was also, but I feel like that was like probably a more honest portrayal of what a unit looks like on a regular like I don't know, Friday night or whatever. Then like normally it's just a bunch of people like hello, SVU, TI tip tip tap on their computers and like it's not Yeah.
The only time I went into a precinct was to report my building super climbing in the bedroom window and it was dead and nobody cared and they were like, well, I don't know what you want us to do, but you should leave. And how was that? So, I don't know. I wonder if we could do investigative reporting and like go to all these cop precincts on the weekends and see what's up. Okay, Anyways, we won't do that. So Amorrow sees him and he goes, hey, I have this letter I need to report. Amorro says, sit down, I'll be with you in a minute. It's busy, bitch. But I think the guy gets overwhelmed or intimidated or something and decide and he leaves, so he never gets to report anything. We cut back to his house and he puts on a record. It'ts some opera music. He pours a glass of whiskey and he starts reading the letter and then it's a quick cut to him hanging dead in the daytime, so that was wild, and then cut to Benson's at the scene. Tomorrow's at the scene. The neighbor found him, and Benson has just like a beautiful updo with a swoop being in the front and I think this is one of my favorite looks, like I love a messy like thing in the back with a sweeping So Benson is can fused why they're called in since it's just a suicide, and Tomorrow explains that his card was found and he actually remembers him from last night but didn't get to talk to him, and Benson's kind of sassy here and goes nice work, and Amorrow just deserve to be put in his place, like someone's dead because of you. Usually we tell people it's not their fault, but it's like, it is your fault. So we find out this is mister Lassiter. The letter assigned Kurt. It's Kurt with a C and it was written to him, so mister Lassiter, this old man is an abuser. And then they cut the body down and he flops onto an emmy like what we don't need to see the cutting down of the suicide body flopping onto a worker. I just I don't understand what they were. Just I don't understand. I don't know the choices there. Yeah, I don't. Yeah, that seems like a lot. And because of what we learned from Jess Varley, who played Fidelia in that episode, she was being hot like it wasn't a body double and it wasn't right.
She had like a special like seat or something that was making it so that she wasn't like yeah, oh for sure.
But that means this old man was just flopping around on this other guy.
Like.
It is a lot for me to think about. So is it a suicide? Did Kurt do the murder?
You know?
Will there be twists and turns? It's SVU baby, So the squad is chatting trying to figure this out. So mister Lassiter taught English. And Amanda's hair looks amazing here. It's like a long bob with layers and swoop short beings and wow, look at you giving Amanda some credit. Yeah no, and we'll see a lot of this in this episode. I think what's making me love Amanda right now is I don't know if I ever noticed her in Finn's little buddy buddy vibe and I love their friendship and it's making me love Amanda more and more every day. That makes sense. And I do feel guilty because I was like, I hate her, and then we got thousands of messages being like I fucking hate that bitch, you know, So I did start feeling guilty for my Rallins hate. You know, she lived in an abusive home too. Yeah, that's true. We all have stuff. Yeah, so we split up, and we have Benson and Tomorrow heading to the school mister Lassiter taught at, which is Manor Hill Academy. Very she she she and mister Lennox is the head master. And we have Rose who is a secretary. And you know, we're not trusting this headmaster because he's wearing a brown suit coat. That's not a trustworthy color, you know what I mean. I just it's it's used car salesman. You don't trust someone in a brown suit I'm sorry.
And the wardrobe department knows that the war knows what the trustworthy color colors are. And then trustworthy I was going to say, unless it's like Pharrell on a red carpet trying to make a statement like I'll accept that in brown, but if it's just someone going to work, they needed a discount, and so it's not gonna happen any.
Is the bozo hairdoo that is also a problem. Mister Lennox, the headmaster, explains that mister Lassiter retired this spring before he got there and started his job. But this teacher is so respected and he's going to help the investigation in any way possible, and we'll see if he sticks by that. Finn and Amanda, my cute favorite duo. They go see an old friend of Finn's who went to the academy on scholarship, and he has a sexy office. We're talking views Florida ceiling windows. This is a rich man. He's wearing a pink shirt. He's not scared to make a fashion statement. He's very rich looking. And the scoop we get from him on Lassiter is he got a little touchy feely after drama rehearsals and he says like I was an easy target because I was a scholarship kid. I wouldn't rock any boats. And he gave him a shoulder massage and tried somewhere else, and basically the scholarship kid was like, if you try that again, I'll break your arm. And so he didn't try it again. But mister Least was right. He wasn't going to tell anyone and like starting problems. So that's that. So this scholarship guy, he's on the board of the school. He loves the school. The school changed his life and helped everything. And so they asked him like, hey, will you give us the database of all the alumni you have the alumni lists, and he's like, what the fuck, I don't know if I want to. They have a back and forth, YadA YadA. Finn is very persuasive, so he's like, fine, I'll share this alumni list with you, and my advice to you is to start with the drama club. So now they're in a park with a husky man and a flannel walking a bunch of dogs. So he's not doing well. Okay, this is he's a dog walker, but I don't know in her shoes. She left her law job to become a dog walker. We can't assume all dog walkers are not doing well, assuming that except for you, I think, yeah, that is true. Yeah, but he has he does have a look of distraught, like I've been through some shit. On his face, he does not look like he's doing well emotionally. Yeah, like black eyeliner, black chip nail polish for a woman in distress, is like a flannel and a dog walker for a man in distress, Like your life's not going the way you want it, you have some Nirvana energy. And he did write the letter. This is Kurt, and he said that the therapist told him to write the letter. He's in a program of survivors of abuse, and he would never kill him. He's shocked that the teacher is dead, and I believe that he didn't kill him. His vibe is trustworthy. I would say he works at a dog hotel, but wanted to sing at the met and he's like, my life's a mess because of this abuse. I really like this angle, you know, I talk about it a lot on this podcast. As a society, we don't concentrate enough on like the aftermath of an abuse. We just think people should just like dust themselves off and try again, you know, And we don't. Sorry, but once I said dust yourself off, there's no way. I wasn't about to sing Alia. I didn't plan on it beforehand, but I couldn't stop myself. Here we are, but yeah, we don't talk about like how it messes people up and how you know, people let's suffer abuse to do self harm and go through depression. So I'm already into this episode because we're going to talk about a topic that I feel passionate about. So they go to a group and it's at a community center, and Kurt Is kind of seems like the leader of this group, and I'm assuming it's like all the boys that were abused in high school by these teachers are now grown up or you know, they all know each other. They went to the school and they all seem like they were abused. Anthony Rapp is there, Okay, hello Broadway, and he's pissed. He's like, who invited these detectives? I thought this was a memorial? What the fuck is going going on? Which confused me, Like why would I guess you're happy he's dead? I mean, I don't know. I was about to say, why would you go to this memorial?
So I think what the group is is like this guy is has been in a program for survivors of abuse, the Dogwalker Kurt, and he has also been speaking to his fellow alumni. And then I think when the word got out that Lassiter had died, he sort of organized this whole like let's talk about what happened. And that's why Anthony Rapp is like I thought this was a memorial and it's like, no, you know why you're here, Like we're all here to talk about how this guy had a handsy problem, you know, and.
He's angsty as well. You know this is a group of angsty men. Oh yeah, I mean Anthony Rapp has a Willco shirt on. Yeah, he's definitely feeling things. And Benson's hair is now down that shows the past thing of the time. I love her hair in this scene. Yeah, she also has a curl look later, like this is a really a plus Benson hair episode. The men in the support group are obviously skeptical about sharing since he's so They're like, what is the point what We're going to go to ghost Court and coming to NBC this fall ghost Court. Benson brings up, like, listen, I understand that he's dead, but we need to know who knew about this and who covered it up because these are people that could still get in trouble. Anthony's arms are bent so he's not into a very dangerous minds body language, and his knee is shaking. And also, did you notice there was a boombox at this community center? This was twenty twelve. Boom boxes were long gone. What's happening? No one needs CDs. It was like a very nineties boombox at this community center. I would love to know why the prop person put it back. I do feel though that if there are any living boomboxes, they're at community centers. Yeah, for choreographic that's like where they'd be. Yeah, yeah, I just I love the details of our prop our prop groups. What is what do they call prop master? Yeah? Okay, there's a man with geled hair. And he said, you know, after Lassiter's death, a lot of feelings have come back to him that he thought he was over with, so maybe this would be helpful. And then they all discussed that this teacher had a signature move called the last sitter lasso, where he'd wrap his arms around you, pull you in and poke you under your ribs. I hate this. I hate this.
Yeah, I just I think that unrequited tickling is horrible, like welly, and they explained.
That it was it was a test because if you laughed, then you got a massage, and then if you didn't stop him, and he would, you know, abuse you more. So it's like it was a total test. So if you were like, get the fuck off me, he's not going to try to massage you. And Anthony Rap's character Nathan is like, I don't know what you're talking about. Stop blaming all your problems and someone tickling you. So he has some issues. Another teacher that's brought up is Streppik, and he raped one of the guys in this group. So then more in another teacher abused a student that was drunk at junior prom offered him a ride home, and then assaulted him. Then so we're finding out that this is many teachers are abusing their students at one school. And then Streppik is dead though, but gave one of the guys gonorrhea, and then Mercer attacked someone in a locker room, and then all more men walk into the meeting and we realize this is a lot of teachers and a lot of victims, and we go to commercial break. If you want to go smoke a cigarette, okay, oh good? What if we started advertising cigarettes? All right? We're back at the precinct and there's a corkboard with a bunch of pictures and yarns zigzagging to all the former students. There's three decades of sexual abuse, and Barbara's here acting smug and very lawyer like, excuse me, we're the victims under the age of twenty three. Did this happen less than five years ago? Was this out of state? Then I can't do anything about it? And it's like, okay, Barba. Basically they're chatting and they're like, there is no way that people high up didn't know about this, Like we have to find out who knew about all of these assaults. And Mercer, the swim coach, is in Thailand, which is a haven for abusers. There's no way he's not committing fucking crimes in Thailand. So Moran taught up until a few years ago, which means there could have been new students that were abused by him. So there's ways to find people that aren't outside of the statue of limitations. So that's something to think about. And then so they go to talk to Morton to figure out what's going on, and he loves trains and making tiny villages in his house, so we know there's an issue. No one that's building little villages in their house is above board, okay. And then it seems like he has dementia or something because he keeps talking about the Korean War, so he's not going to be helpful. He has no idea what's happening, and he's building villages. So Elliott Gould comes into the precinct now and he's a former teacher for Manor Hill and he wants to talk, and he's wearing a bolo tie with a marbled stone in it. I don't even know what this means, but it's obviously a specific choice to give him a bolo tie. He admits that he had sex with students. He said that they were older students, ages seventeen and eighteen, that it came out of affection, and that it was in the seventies early eighties. It was a different time you wouldn't really understand. But it was warm and caring. It wasn't really rape. And Benson's like, well that's fucking convenient, Like you breach the trust of these students. You know, we can't do anything about it because they're of age, Like, why are you even coming here, you shady motherfucker. You're calculating, and he goes, no, my actions have had consequences that I did not foresee. So if I've harmed anyone in any way, like maybe confronting me would be helpful. Like, I just want to do my part. I feel really guilty about what I've done. Elliott Gould to me, I don't know, do you I think of American history? X Well, I've told you famously.
I've never seen that movie, but I know Elliott Gould from so much stuff.
I mean, I don't know if I've remembered you haven't seen it. I kind of want to be like, oh my god, we have to watch it together. But it's not really a good.
Feel I don't know if it's like a feel a feel good, fun Nazi movie that we can watch together.
Eli juises it is really good. It's done so well. But I remember in ap English in high school, I did quote that movie in my conclusion of an essay and my teacher was like, are you fucking kidding? You're quoting movies in your essay? And I go, I thought, I mean what? But I did get bad grades? But yeah, I love it and Edward Ran is very hot in it. He's very sexualazi tats and all. So Benson asks if anyone else at the school knew about this, and Elliott Gould says he didn't know about the other teachers, and he feels really bad that he failed to see it or help them in any way. He did take advantage of boys, right, But do I believe the seventies were different? Yeah? I don't know. I don't. I'm on Elliott's side. What are you thinking? You're giving me eyes?
I just I gotta it'll feel different, I think when we get into the real crime, because it's not Elliott Gould and it's like real boys who have had their lives ruined, So it might just feel different.
But yeah, he does. He just I think that's why they got Elliott Gould to do this part.
It's like he comes in with this like sincerity and like you really feel like, oh, it was a different time, like you could smoke.
A cigarette while you were at your pediatrician for fuck's sake. I mean, like it was a totally different like world in terms of like what was allowed. But and it doesn't mean those things aren't wrong, you know. Yeah, And we'll know more, but the fact that he didn't know about the other teachers is helpful because it excludes him from like, you know, this conspiracy that it's like a bunch of people or whatever. So the detectives talk to the men from the group and they're like, wait, what Tompkins. No, that's everyone's favorite teacher. I've talked to twenty five victims and no one has ever mentioned Tompkins. Barbara has his pockets square, and he's like, YadA, YadA, YadA, I can't do anything without evidence, YadA YadA, YadA, And he says this all sucks, like the only way we can have a case at all is against the school if they knew and covered it up. So they need to find evidence to show that the school knew what was going on. So the one who has gone to Rhea said that the dad went and confronted the headmaster of the school. But both the headmaster of the school, like the former head master of the school, and the dad are dead, so it's like, only this guy, this victim, could testify because there's no other evidence of anything happening. So they're like, okay, if you testify, this is good news. And then the gel hair Boy and the ringleader are like, we don't even need laws, we don't need court. We just want an apology. We just want someone to stay sorry to us. And Barbara says, yeah, but that's admitting guilt. And then they would be too scared to do that because then you can take them to civil courts, so they're never gonna like apologize in any way. And then we see Rita Calhoun. Yes, I've growned. I love her more and more every time I see her. Is that fucked up? I like, I'm obsessed? I really great. I love that actress. Yeah, I oh yeah. Isn't she in Veep? She's our veep girl? Is she in Veep? She's definitely in House of Cards cards, Yes, House of Cards. Listen. I can't keep all my political shows in order. Okay, I'm watching too much. And then Charles Grodin is there. Uh oh, what's going to happen? Is that the dad from Beethoven? I think so? And he is the board chairman. I'm the dad from Clifford.
If anybody used to watch the show Clifford where Martin Shorret plays a little boy, go on, so and the head master is there.
So we have a meeting with Rita who's going to be the lawyer. We have Charles Groden, who's the head of the board, and then we have the head master. And of course I think I need to add to an SVU drinking game. And anytime someone says fishing expedition, I think it's time to drink. And if you do it in this episode you will get a little tipsy.
Fishing expedition and witch Hunt would kind of be in the same square on like the Bengo card.
Yeah, absolutely, And Groden is like, my family is four generations of the school and so many success stories, and I love this school and it's like, okay, for every successful person, you have a bunch abused people who are like our lives have been ruined. And Growden is like, they're losers and if they drink, that's not my problem. And he's just very serious. His voice is very scary, and he goes, we have a party tonight, please leave. So that's his vibe, very intense, and Barbara says a line I don't love and he goes, listen, I'm a prosecutor, not a healer. And anyone that's in the Barbara b great brigade. It's like, how do he's a jerk in this episode?
Yes, but like I think this is part of his arc because he later does become a healer. Like he does do things in later episodes where he bends things or does things to help people. So I think because this is what like his Is this his first season or I mean maybe second. Yeah, it's fresh, Yeah, he's fresh off the boat. So like we gotta have him be a little bit of a dick that has to like soften up or whatever. It was like Graylick didn't have enough time for that to happen because she was just a dick all the time and then they got rid of her. But Barbara, he has an arc.
So then moral Benson is like, I know you want to do the right thing. You know, something fucked up happened and criminal and we need to do something. So that's exciting. So now Barbara now is wet to work. He's like got his motivation back up, he's invested again, and he goes, fine, if they want us to go fishing, we'll go fucking fishing. And so he pulls up his cuffs of his dress shirt. He doesn't but I have pictured it spiritually, I know, I kept being I kept being like, where are the sleeves coming out? What is happening? And Robins lets the team know that she found something. And this to me is this is fishing for sure, because this doesn't seem like evidence to me at all. But that's why they're being paid the medium bucks to be detectives. So she says that, like, they threw a retirement party for Streppick, but he wasn't even sixty And for that, I guess that school it's suspicious to leave and retire before you're forced to, since it's such a little cult. And there was a party nine years ago. But then he started teaching in an inner city charter school, So why would you retire from this like hoity toity place to go to a charter school in the city. So Rollins and Phil, oh my god, are you back on college? Fin Phil, it's back drinking game.
Addition, Lidia calling finn Phil, Lisa calls Phil get wasted.
Rollins in finn Ough go visit this charter school, and the lead woman in a gray power suit she goes, oh, yeah, it was a big deal that he came here. We were like really excited that this fancy guy was going to come to our school, but I fired him a month after he got here because I heard voices in the locker room, walked in and he was with an eighth grade boy. Nothing happened, but it was too close and I just got a bad vibe. Then we find out that she called the old school, the Manor Hill or whatever and tried to find out what was up, and the secretary said, follow your gut. So that's a clue that the school fucking knew. But the school gave a glowing recommendation. So it's like, okay, hold on, you forced him into early retirement. The secretary is like, ah, yeah, fire him. He is shady as fuck. But then you gave a glowing recommendation so they can go abuse people in like a poorer neighborhood. Messed up.
Yeah, it's essentially the same as like shuffling a priest to a different city or whatever.
I just don't get what goes through people's mind, Like what is it? Well, I know exactly what it is. It's like the people that are doing the molesting are the ones making the laws. I mean, that's basically it. I just saw a tweet recently that was like, Yeah, the brock Turners of the world grow up and become the Matt Gates' is who create the laws and protect each other. And it's like all these abuses because it's like, why aren't you, like, why are you not protecting children? It's like, I think they're just protecting the reputation. You know.
It's like if you fire him with bad cause, it's like, then there's a trail.
You know.
If you give him a good wreck and he moves on to another school, he's someone else's problem.
It's just upsetting. It's yeah, it's upsetting when you think about how the world works. Okay, So the cops go to this private event. You know, I love when they break up a party and the head masters like, you can't be in here, and Growden's like, but they have warns, they have the paperwork. They're not fucking around, And so we're going to the grand jury, baby, and Benson turns to read and goes fishing expedition done baby, Okay, so it's exciting news.
Also, like a fishing expedition is just looking for something, isn't It isn't like a fishing expedition is like you wait, you fit, you like, try to find fish, Like that's what investigation is.
I don't know why that's such a bad thing.
We're not going to let you go on a fishing expedition and just start finding evidence.
Yeah, it's basically saying that there are fish to find. Yeah, so you should say something else, But I don't. I can't think quick enough. Like fishing in the La River like that might be like no fish, like that might be smart. I just learned that there's no water. I'm glad I got to use it for the podcast. My knowledge. So the head master's on the stand and he's getting questioned, you wrote a recommendation for a guy that you knew sucked. What's going on? Why didn't you call the principle back? What do you know? All of this seems inconclusive, and then Rose is denying helping and she goes, no, I didn't imply anything. I was just telling her, you know, to do what she felt best. So Rose is good. I bet she got a bonus for that. She just keeps being like I didn't think it was a good fit for him to be at that school. I don't really know why, and doesn't have any answers so there's like a little break in the grand jury time and the Gonorrhea guy is nervous as hell in the hallway, and they're like, you're going to testify, right, and he goes, oh, yeah, yeah, but we're sview experts. We know something's happening. So Grodin is now on the stand and says, Strepick taught his son if he thought that Streppik was some molester, why would he allow that? Good point? That is persuasive. And he goes, listen, Strepik was loved, and I don't know what you're doing. And then they ask him, well, why did why did Strepik retire early? Why did he get financial compensation? What's going on? And Groden says, listen, motherfucker, that was nine years ago. I serve on a lot of boards in three different time zones, which is a flex I like that. I love having to juggle time zones. And he goes, yeah, but there's all these missing files and missing meetings, missing minutes in the meeting. But Groden is like, listen, I don't belie eve a word of this, and I wasn't aware of anything, So go fuck yourself now. Vincent Gonorrhea guy. It's his turn and he's missing, and we knew he was gonna be missing. He was nervous as hell. He's of course, this is a big stressful ordeal. And they find him at the Dover Hotel with a sex worker, comes out in leopard like running out and he's in his underwear on the bed and he's very, very sweaty. And now Amorrow's words, not mine, amorro goes. He was found with a hooker and some coke, which sounds like a great party, okay, but this is why Amorrow doesn't get more. People don't want to fuck Tomorrow. I think things like this. So Tomorrow Benson and Barber walking on the cobblestones under like the Stone Court building arch and they look like superheroes. And I fucking love this shot, like the director did amazing. I really love it. So the new goal now is to get the medical records for Strap to see if he had gone a rhea to link it to when Vincent had got rhea. This is a fishing expedition, deep sea diving, I would say so. Now Strepick's only living relative is a second cousin who does give permission and access to his medical records, which I think sucks. Like I would hate if I had some loose cousin be like, oh yeah, dig her up or whatever, like I, this is wild. Yeah, but what if your second cousin was like, yeah, old uncle Streppik with the fucking hands, Yeah, you can go ahead and get his impot Like, go ahead, yeah, he probably fucking most everyone and gave me really weird vibes at the family picnic. Go get his DNA, no problem, Okay, I like that because I kept thinking of the Barnes collection, which is just art theft. But like I I was just like, you should be able to do this, but you're here totally right. I switched my point of view. So and he did have goneriea like three weeks before the student did. Now Rita Calhoun enters fast I mean speed racer, and she said, as you cannot use this because of subsection see ma blah blah blah blah blah blah bah. And basically this like weird subsection of a law. Why read A Calhoun gets paid the big bucks is you cannot release anything of the dead that would like fuck with the reputation or disgrace them. So that's weird. So it's just like hard, you can't speak ill of the dead because that would be speaking ill of the dead, and that's the law. And Barbara's like, maybe there's a way to work around this. Let's get Elliott gool To on the stand to talk about how hey, we were all fucking the kids, like to make it seem like it wasn't disgraceful, which does seem crazy, Like I I don't understand this. It does not work in court. Sorry, it doesn't work. Like the judges like, sorry, you haven't sold me on raping your students is cool, Like it doesn't work. They're like, no, this would disgrace it. There's no way around, Like abusing children that you're supposed to protect and teach is not. It's disgraceful no matter how you try to spin it. But good, good try, you know. And then Benson, I would like to say, did not like this idea the whole time. She's like, I really don't like that. We're gonna say raping is okay to like get this, and Barbara is like, we we lose the battle, but win the war, but none of it happened. Also, Rita is a lady in Red I love this outfit. She has redhead to toe, and so Elliot Gould also has another Bolo tie which is exciting, this time with turquoise. So he has a nice, healthy bolo collection. That's how you know he's an intellectual from the seventies. Yeah, yeah, that's what it is. I was like, what is this represent and bolo? Now? I only think about the stripper from Atlantis? Same, yeah, I don't think about anything. I was like, he was wearing fake tionel oh no, And I do want to say, you know, I told you this didn't work. And Rita is a good point. She's like, what are you gonna do? Bring a cannibal up here and tell me it's healthy to eat people. Get the fuck out of here. So the school decides to get ahead of this. So they're back in the squad room and there's a press release that's released. Obviously it's a press release, it's out there, and they talk about how Tompkins is a creep. So they basically like, instead of focusing on Streppick or all these other people, we have Tompkins, who on the stand admitted to having relations with students, So they use him and they go it's just one bad apple. It has nothing to do with their school. We can't do anything legally about it. It was too long ago. But we're so upset and fuck Elliott Gould. So the teacher, you know, I mean, they're escapegoating him. They're scapegoating him. It is a good it's a good play. Now Finn is on the phone with a former student who saw the story and he wants to talk. It's a man in a green velvet suit coat and a patterned shirt underneath, and he's drinking a coffee. We can only assume this is a gay man. So Benson and Amarro are sitting with him, and he goes, oh, I don't want to testify against Elliot Gould. I want to testify for him. I was eighteen. I knew I was gay since I was six, and Walter let me know it's okay, and walt was great, and so he had a great time. I mean, this is so many ethical, different moral discussions, honestly, But he loved his relations with Elliot Gould slash Waltz. But he says Strepik found out about it. Streppick is like, oh, this is easy prey, Like if he's doing that over here, I can get him here. So Streppik tried to come on to him and he did not like it, and he told his mom, and his mom wrote a letter to the school complaining about him. He does not have that copy of that letter, but he has a copy of the letter that the school wrote back. Brad Forrester, member of the board signed it. AKA Charles Grodin knew saw the letter from the mom and wrote a letter back to the mom. So he fucking knew that Streppick was abusing children and let his son stay in his class. That is fucked up. Okay, I agree with you. Yeah, I mean I wrote it all in caps. I had to yell. So Benson's like, boom baby. So Benson and Tomorrow go talk to Charles Groden are like, hey, babe, we know about the letter and guess what perjury you lied on the stand. So what are we gonna do here? And he goes, that was twenty eight years ago. I don't even remember. He was not a sexual predator. And while they're talking to him, Benson corner of her detectivice he's a family photo and Anthony rap is Charles Groden's son. Wow, Dun Dun dunt huge. I mean like big twist. We didn't know that. No, we did not know that. And so you know, if you don't remember, he was in the support group. So Groden says he asked Nathan Slash Anthony Rap about the boy and that Nathan said the boy was like a cry baby and a loser, and so that's why Groden like didn't really care about it. Do that make sense. That's why he'd like dismiss the allegations.
Basically because he's like, oh, this is just a kid that's oversensitive or whatever.
Yeah, so they go to talk to Nathan, who lives in the guest house. He loves bears, there's a hanging plant, he's wearing flannel, another Willco shirt. You know, there's like beers, there's a there's like a Heineken mini keg on the table, and yeah, the guest house is nice. Like where are they living? This looks like an LA style sprawling man.
No, I don't know where in New York there are guest houses, but they might be up in like Riverdale, like near where this actually is supposed to be.
But go on, Yeah, so Grodan is like peering behind the detectives who are talking to Nathan, and we know Nathan has a secret, like he has something to say, there's too much angst not to and they're straight up this is a wild scene. They're straight up calling Nathan a loser in front of him. They're like, hey, Charles Grodin, are you embarrassed of your thought of your son? Because your son's a loser. Look at him. He doesn't work, He just lives here alone, he does nothing. It's like, this is so rude. This is like a clearly abused team. But this is how they push people to snap, Yeah, humiliate them. Yeah, it's really like funny. He's like Benson's like, are you so disappointed in your son? Nathan's like, excuse me, I'm ready here, And Grodan's just like Strepika is a saint among men, which makes me think were they lovers? Was Grodan abusing kids? Like why are you calling him a saint? Like I just don't understand, like a school who cares? Yeah, So so Nathan snaps like a little angsty like good Charlotte guy, and he's like, or what dad? We have to protect the reputation of Manor Hill. That school is so important and Benson's like, yeah, your dad's pretty obsessed with the school, like what the fuck? And Grodan's like, Nathan to cork in it, you're done, and Nathan hates it. Whatever, there's a lot of stuff happening, and Nathan said he had strepiic and my grades went to hell and so did a lot of other things. And he's like, what's up, dad, You didn't notice anything was wrong with me, Like why didn't you help me? I needed help. I was obviously like fucking up. And he says I couldn't tell you because you would have called me a fairy, like you did the other kid whose mom wrote a letter to complain. So Grodan's also scapegoating his son too, like he called the guy a fairy. And Anthony raps like you love this school more than me, and he runs off and says, listen, it was a long time ago and I don't remember. And Grodon's heart looks like it might be melting, and he's realized he's finally, finally he's realized he's done something wrong. So after we see the heart melt a little bit and Nathan have his moment and we're like, Okay, maybe something's positive is gonna happen. After all this. We are now at like the school, an assembly type situation, and so then the three amigos from the support group come in. We have the main guy in glasses, we have the gelled hair guy, and we have the guy that had gone rhea. And the cops sent a car for them. So that's kin. I didn't know car. I didn't know that happened. And there's a giant meeting happening, and it seems like a bunch of alumni are there and the headmasters talking on a podium and he says, tonight begins the healing process. We're going to talk about what happened here and make sure it never happens again. Barbara asks if Benson is happy, and she says, I am so. Then Groden comes to talk at the podium as well, and his son is in the audience. They make eye contact and he says, I can't undo the damage that was done here, but we will help and support those who are victimized and launch an investigation to those responsible. Akau I apologize on behalf of the school. They zoom in on everyone's faces and everyone looks really sad and serious and just like thinking about the heaviness of all of this, and then they zoom it on Benson, who has like, I feel like tears starting in her eyes, like she should teach a masterclass on like not fully crying, but tears just building in your eyes. And she looks moved by the moment and knows that she's done more great work. And that is the episode of Lessons Learned, Star Studied Amazing.
Well.
I like this episode.
I mean it's it's another one that is extremely close to the real crime. So get ready because we're about to take another trip to sad Town with the real crime.
All right, So now let's head to reality.
This episode is based on a scandal that happened at the horus Man's Cool, which is a private prep school in the Bronx founded in eighteen eighty seven.
Oh so this is very ripped from the headlines.
Extremely No, Like, when I tell you how this story works, it's like literally the number of teachers that they focus on in the episode is like the number of teachers that are focused on in the New York Times piece that kind of blew the lid off of this whole scandal. Like it's very, very ripped this episode. I'll just I'll tell you everything. So Horace Man is Yeah, it's part of the Ivy League Preparatory School League. It goes from nursery school to twelfth grade. It's located in Riverdale, which is a nice neighborhood in the Bronx. The tuition for twenty nineteen twenty twenty is fifty two thousand, a little over fifty two thousand a year. So to send a kid from pre k to twelfth grade there would run you about three quarters of a million dollars.
And that's for their schooling, which they could get publicly. And is this a boarding school or no? Or no, these Upper east Side kids are traveling to the Bronx every day. No, it's private school. Yeah.
And ironically it is named after Horace Man, who was an American educational reformer and politician known for his commitment to promoting public education. And now he is named a school where only the elite can go and the rich go is named after him. So I actually know a bunch of people who have gone to Horace Man through my summer camp, through my college, Like I know people who have gone there. I never really hear people talking about it like it's this far, Like you know, the way I talk about my summer camp.
I mean I talk about my summer camp like it is.
The fucking best place in the world, and like if you don't go there, like you got like, I just like love talking about it.
I don't really hear people talk about Horace Man that way, or anybody talking about their high school that way. I never really hear. But I'm sure we're going to say this and then we're going to get all these dms that are like my high school was the best place I ever went. But you know, I just don't hear that a lot. No, you ride high for summer camp. All I said this weekend was like, yes, I think sports teaches kids a lot of great lassons. And you're like, so does summer camp. Okay, you learn a lot at camp. And I'm like, all right, bitch, Rosie doesn't have to play sports.
I'm just trying to figure out a way that I don't have to put Rosie into sports. Please let me have this, Okay. So Horace Man was an all boys school until nineteen seventy five, and then they started letting women in.
So here's what happened.
In twenty twelve, a former student named Amos Camille. He published this massive expose in the New York Times magazine that details sexual abuse of students at Horaceman by teachers that took place from like the honestly late sixties and seventies into the nineties. So this is like the same as that episode decades of abuse. This guy was, you know, a little bit like the character that we meet, who's the guy from Finn's old neighborhood. He was not a member of the Manhattan elite. He was just a guy who went to a public school, but who was really good at baseball. He was recruited by the headmaster, who was this guy named Inky Clark, and he talks about how like in his first days there, there were teachers that he was told to stay away from and he'd be like, oh, because they're hard, or like they're mean, and he'd be like, no, they're perverts. Like his friends would be like their pervers, like stay away from them. So apparently there were some teachers that were known to grow up female students, and then others.
That went for boys.
So and especially like I mean, because it wasn't all boys' school, you know, just a decade earlier than this guy went. I think I think there was probably a lot. It seems like more many more male victims came forward than female victims. So in the article he talks about this, like one time that his mom had to go abroad, and so the headmaster invited him out to dinner, and like they him and his brother and his friend, and they all went to his apartment and another teacher was there from their school, and they were just kind of drinking cocktails. And these guys were drinking gin and tonics and they were seventeen, and the drinking age had recently moved from eighteen to nineteen. But it's still just feel sketchy to go to your principal's house and drink a bunch of gin and tonics. I don't know, that doesn't sound like something that's going to go in a good way. And he said he like kind of had an intuition for like what was going on, Like he knew what was up. So like right after dinner, they like obviously wanted the steak dinner.
They went to a steakhouse.
They drank more, and then the kids were like we got to go and like high tailed it out of there and didn't you know, stick around to find out what would the after party was going to be like. So, ten years after this, the author of this article graduated, he went on like a camping trip with a bunch of his friends from Horace Mann and one of his friends on the camping trip kind of just confessed to being sexually assaulted by the assistant football coach at the school named Mark Wright, who had eventually left the school under mysterious circumstances right before the author of this article had started to attend. So and this guy was also cons are like a huge Horseman success story. This guy Wright, who was the teacher. He graduated in nineteen seventy two. He was one of the few black students that the school had. He was really popular and now going went to Princeton played football there, and then he came back to Horace Man to teach art and coach football. And the friend on this camping trip basically described how right like groomed him, molested him and then acted like nothing happened, and then they said there were others and so on this camping trip, a lot of the guys all started talking about like sort of like all the way from this guy getting molested to like lower stuff that was still sketchy or bad vibes, like just like that were not necessarily crimes, but just bad feelings they had, like for example, the drinks at the steak and the steakhouse dinner. He's like they were just getting us drunk, and like it just didn't feel like that's something that should have been happening. So then twenty years goes by and the Penn State scandal broke, and then of course, like besides Penn State, we've got the Catholic Church, the Boys Out, other scandals, but the Penn State scandal is kind of what got this author thinking about what had gone down at his school. So he spoke to his friend who had opened up to him on the camping trip and got some more details about essentially what happened when this assistant football coach assaulted him, and he explained how he had lured him to a room saying he was going to paint.
Him red flag, just a red flag.
He told him to get undressed, and he had told the kid like, oh, you're gonna put on a bathing suit, and then when he tried to put on his bathing suit, he was like, no, no, no, don't put that on, and then he forcibly performed oral sex on him while masturbating.
And this kid was thirteen years old when this happened. Like this is awful.
He told the author that it was really hard to stay at Horseman because then this coach would come up close to him at certain times and go, what's wrong, little buddy? Are you you're not still mad about that that one thing?
Are you?
Like?
Horrific because it's like now you're sort of psychologically torturing him to make sure that he doesn't talk. And now, you know, nineteen seventy eight obviously was a different like nowadays, kids are taught so early about bad touch, like how to tell a trusted grown up, et cetera, like if something happens.
But he didn't.
He didn't report the assaults anyone, but he did contribute to the gossip about this guy being a child molester, so he would like add in and they would just all hope that the gossip and the word of mouth would like get around to somebody getting a punishment or being you know.
Kicked out.
So he was supposed to see right for a physical exam one day, which is like, why is an assistant football coach doing physical exams on anyone? I don't think that that's what's supposed to be happening. And the guy started to molest him again, and he said, if you don't stop it, I'll tell and so he did stop, and then other kids told him that it happened to them too.
So this was That was all.
In nineteen seventy eight, and when the nineteen seventy eight seventy nine school year started, right was gone. The school said absolutely nothing about it. There were rumors of resignations or like a firing, but like nothing definitive. And it's kind of weird, like a beloved teacher or coach just disappears.
And the school doesn't say anything. You know, like if you were just kind of like a teacher that was there for like a year, I guess nobody really cares. But you're this big personality that everybody knows at the school and the school's just like by, like no, not a word. See this is the thing, Like no one says anything because of the reputation of the school. But I feel if the school went, hey we fired this molester, bye bitch, that would be better for the school rep No.
No, but because I think that then they think they're opening themselves up to like we allowed it to happen for such and such an amount of years, or we're a school where molested, where children get molested, Like I think it has a lot to do with just reputation, you know, like especially in these this elite world of like Manhattan private schools. You know, I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying this is what I think is like motivating people. The author of this article contacted the Horace manheadmaster and members of the board of trustees. He did receive a reply from a corporate PR firm, of course, just basically saying, oh, I'm not in a position to comment on the events involving former and now and in some cases now deceased faculty members that are said to have occurred years before we assumed leadership. They're basically saying like, oh, well, this was all before our time.
What can we do?
You know, that's the gist of what this corporate statement says. But they did say it should be noted that Horace Mann's school has terminated teachers based on its determination of inappropriate conduct, including but not limited to certain of the individuals named in your article, So they are in a way like admitting that they got rid of some of the people that you're talking about in your article. And when the article did come out, they issued a blanket statement saying the article contains allegations dating back in some instances thirty years long before the current administration took office, which makes it difficult to accurately respond to the factual allegations therein. In addition, on June thirteenth, nineteen eighty four, there was a fire in the attic of the business office that destroyed some records. How convenient. So the coach is one guy, Mark writes, one guy they talk about in this article. Another guy they talk about in an article is a teacher named Stanley Copps who's kind of like this eccentric weirdo who would like stop in the aisles of the classroom to like pop quiz students, but it would only be like real male, hot athletic students, and then while the students were sort of like thinking about their answer, he would massage them, so there was like a massage situation that was not normal, and he would cancel class sometimes and instead of a regular class, they would just do something called a frolic and the kids would just run wild and he would like join in and get all like red in the face and like worked up over just like roughhousing with kids or whatever. And he was a JV swim coach. Please, I'm sorry if that triggers you in any way.
No, it just reminds me of my JV swimming hundred butterfly record. No big wanted to give you a place to drop that in. And here we are.
So this guy, Stanley Copps was a bachelor at the time, and so was the headmaster Inky, and so there were kind of rumors that they were both gay or that they had a relationship with each other. A lot of students loved Cops. He cared about them and they cared about him, so he got away with being kind of just like a weirdo instead of being like a pedophile. But then on a trip to the school's nature preserve. The school owns a nature preserve and Connecticut of course, like all of our high schools did, and a former student said he was like sleep it was they would they would sleep over at this like nature preserve like and do little you know, outdoorsy trips and he was on the top bunk. He dropped his sleeping bag out of his bunk, and when he went to go down to get it, he like bent over to get it, and suddenly this teacher was pressed up behind him, and he said he didn't feel assaulted, he just felt uncomfortable. And then what sealed the deal for him was the next morning, the teacher pulled him aside, grabbed his own dick, and said, what were you doing last night?
And then the kid totally freaked out and told his dad, who reported it immediately, and cops resigned. So that I think the school like hats himself on the back because they did sort of like handle that swiftly and like, you know, appropriately. But the faculty received a letter saying Cops was leaving. Nothing was said to the students, nothing was said to the parents.
So I think now schools and camps and all kinds of things like try to be super transparent about everything, and they were the opposite back in these times, like just completely obfuscating like the truth at all times and like just let's move on, and you know, nobody gets a letter, nobody gets any kind of warning of anything. This guy exactly like the episode that you that you mentioned, moved on to another prep school in New Jersey. Horace Man said nothing to this school about the allegations, and they did fire him at the end of the school year, or he was asked not to come back at the end of the school year, and that teacher ended up taking his own life cops. So you can see the way that the show sort of used a bunch of like pieces from all of these different teachers, and the school said nothing. The school said nothing about this beloved teacher for all these years who had resigned taking his own life.
Nothing. And then this last teacher that they talk about is like particularly like creepy to me because his name was Johannes so Marie, and he was the head of the arts in the music department. He was very wealthy.
He was a semi famous conductor, like he would conduct all these orchestra, all these philharmonics and orchestras, and he was like looked up to by the students. One former student confessed to the author that so mari had befriended him, hired him for babysitting his own children. And then in nineteen seventy three, when this boy was sixteen molested him when he was in his home babysitting for his kids. He told him to stop, and he did, but then a couple of weeks later he did it again, so he knew who to groom and how even if they resist the first time, I still think I can give it another shot. Many other kids came forward about like he would take glee clubs on trips to Europe and introduce them to all these musicians and take them to these fine like dining establishments, and then he.
Expected them to have sex with him.
Some of these kids, which this one kid said he did it even though it repulsed him, So that doesn't really sound like a consensual experience to me. But then this kid told his parents he didn't want to sleep in the same room with Johannes anymore on trips. Why was that ever happening? Why was that ever happening that the teacher would sleep in a room with the kids.
I mean, I'm I don't know. I went on a trip to Washington, d C. In eighth grade. I was excited to share a hotel room with my friends.
I was never like, hey, when is my geometry teacher hopping into the bed you know, like, that's a very weird setup.
And even if someone's dreaming of, like, you know, their math teacher or something, the teacher still shouldn't be sleeping with them, you know what I mean. Yeah, sure, as a high schooler, you can imagine having a crush on your teacher. Yeah, because you're like, I would never want to sleep with my teachers, but I felt different. But that shouldn't encourage the teachers in any way, right, No, the teachers are supposed to know the boundaries.
So basically, the same kid who said he told his parents he didn't want to sleep in the same room with this teacher, So Marie got word that he had told his parents that came to his house and like begged him in front of his parents, like please stay in the same room with me, please? What Yes, in front of his parents. And the parents didn't understand.
They thought that like they thought he was being like I want to be with my friends, and the teacher was like, please stay with me. Like they didn't understand that there was like a sexual thing going on or abuse, and they didn't know and the son was not offering that information to them. Okay, a teacher begging at your house to sleep in a room with you. I don't know how it could be anything but creepy. I knew, I knew.
And this abuse from between this boy and Summary went on for three years, even when this kid went off to college, and he wrote a letter to Summary. At one point he got no reply, and then he wrote a letter to his wife and got a seasoned assist letter.
So the wife knew, I mean new denial. Who knows, but yes.
Twenty years later, a member of the class of nineteen ninety four came forward with basically a similar story about this guy.
So this is twenty years later.
Who knows how many people there were in between these two victims, And this kid went on a trip to Europe with Summary, and when he got back, his family could just tell he had changed, like he was angry, secretive, and he eventually attempted suicide. He was put into a hospital and as soon as he was released from the hospital, he wrote a letter to the headmaster accusing Summary of grossly inappropriate sexual advances. This kid's mother worked at Horace Man too. She confronted Sommary and he said, he kissed me first, so pretty gross. This guy thinks that this is like some kind of like cute flirtation.
Yeah, because even if a student again you push the kid off like blame Oh, by then this is nineteen ninety four. We're not doing this free love nineteen seventy shit anymore. You're not allowed, You're not just this isn't happening.
So the headmaster said that the administration and the trustees got together and decided to do nothing to address this problem. I'm like, ugh, like spinning with anger over how this school handled all this stuff. A lawyer for the school told his mother basically that if you don't have a tape of this abuse happening, it's basically your son's word against the teacher's word. So no one from Horace Man ever asked the student about his experience, Like no, they never had him come in explain what happened anything like that. He ended up going to Brown, so he got into the Ivy League as was expected. Struggled with depression in post college life as well, and in two thousand and nine he took his own life.
So it's just like heartbreaking.
And when you're talking about the effect of this abuse, like years later, it doesn't go away. You know, it's not a it's not like a pull yourselves up from your bootstraps kind of thing. Summary continued to teach a horace man until retiring in two thousand and two. And then he died in twenty eleven, and the kid who I had described to you before, who he raped for years, went to the funeral, and he said in this article, he says, still today, after the drinking and the heroine and the therapy and the battered relationships, I just can't bring myself to fully hate the man who gave me so much. So there's like entanglements going on here with like with these relationships. So while he was researching this article, the writer said he talked to a lot of people who could easily recall male teachers who were sleeping with male students, female teachers who were sleeping with male students, like all kinds of like, oh, yeah, this guy used to sleep with the students, blah blah blah, this teacher used to sleep with students, like it was just sort of common knowledge. And then he spoke to an expert. I just I'm using these quotes from this article because he did talk to this lawyer named Paul Monis, who represents people who have been sexually abused by authority figures who had a lot of interesting insight, Like he said, the whole goal of the grooming process is to wrap the child close to you, like the affection and trust. Is to make the kid complicit in the act, make them feel like it was their fault, so it won't occur to them to talk to someone because they are they feel complicit in the relationship. As of to twenty twelve, New York Statute of Limitations says people who were victimized as minors cannot take civil action against an abuser until after they turn twenty three.
So it just adds to all these reasons to not report. Why, Like why would I report? I can't, you know, like there's no evidence.
And then if I even want to take him to court to get money, I can't do it until I'm twenty three. Like, there's just a lot of reasons that the law makes it, you know, not a hospitable environment to tell your story. A lot of the victims of these teachers developed as we've discussed depression, drug and alcohol abuse, broken relationships. Monus says that sexual abuse emotionally binds the child closer to the person who has harmed him, setting him up for a life plagued by suspicion and confusion because he will never be sure who he can really trust. And I think that's why I'm going to talk about somebody else a little bit later. But I think that's why you'll see like this kid who was abused by this man forever goes to his funeral, you know. And this is also why a lot of victims only speak up when their abuser is dead or dying, because it's too scary. The idea of thinking that they might deny it or blame turn the blame around on them is too frightening. But for example, the kid who got cops fired after that sleeping bag incident says he doesn't feel traumatized at all. He says, I think the school acted quickly and appropriately, and I'm not traumatized.
Very tricksy Mattel.
Yes, the author of the Times piece also tried to talk to tons of administration, faculty trustees.
And they all lawyered up and like no one would talk to him. So when the.
Article was published, that's when a lot of survivors started to contact one another. So I think that's like when you see that group that came together with like Anthony Rapp and Kurt and stuff that would be like something in the show it was the death of Lasseter, But I think in real life it was like this article coming out just validated what a lot of people had gone through. So this came out in early June twenty twelve, and a couple of weeks later, Tech Young Lynn, who was a teacher at the school, a Buddhist who had been a beloved chaplain and cross country coach at Horace Mann, who at the time was eighty eight years old, admitted to having sex with quote unquote maybe three students, and he says it didn't feel like a big deal back then. So this is to me where the Elliot Gould character comes in. This is who they've based it on.
He says, the only thing I can assure you of was that everything I did was in warmth and.
Affection and not a power play. I may have crossed societal boundaries if I did, I am sorry, and he says, I'm surprised they remember. It was all so casual and warm, so he definitely didn't think he did anything wrong. And one of his victims said, delusional might not be the right word, but to not have the awareness that there's a built in power dynamic with a teacher.
And a student. That was the end of his quote. He was with a question mark. He just says, like that is delusional.
I mean to not think to think that you and a seventeen year old that you teach at school have are on equal footing in a relationship.
And then so this article came out twenty twelve.
The SVU episode came out in November of twenty twelve, so they wasted no time. A few months later they got right to it, and in twenty thirteen, another alum named Mark Fisher published this piece in The New Yorker that I remember reading on a plane when it first came out about another horus Man teacher named Robert Berman and this it seems.
Like you could write a movie about him.
Like he was this like weird Svengali kind of teacher who like, on the first day of classes would be so mean to everybody that most people would drop out. And like the six or seven guys that would stay behind were obsessed with him. They dressed like him, they like tried to talk like him. Other kids would call these kids Bermanites, like it was all they wanted to do was impress this guy. He was this like, you know, total intellectual powerhouse to them, and they just wanted to impress him and get his approval. He always, like every semester, every year had like one kid that was like the bell of the ball, you know, like who would They would be told that you're brilliant, You're the next Milton, you know, and he would start calling that student by their first name, give them special attention, and then he would most of the times, it sounds like he came on to these boys.
It was like a pouncing.
It was like they came into his room for something and they would just turn around and he was kissing them like out of nowhere. And then some of them rejected him, and he seemed very pissed off by those rejections. And then yeah, same same patterns as some of the other teachers, taking them on trips or inviting them over to his home and molesting them. And I am trying to find out if this guy is still alive. I know that as of twenty thirteen, he was seventy eight years old and he was alive, so it's eight years later he'd be eighty six by now, and I don't know if he's alive still, but he was living at the time of this article in upstate New York in a home purchased for him by former students who were all part of this cult of young men that are obsessed with him. So they bought him the house that he lives in. And I think he actually has abused some of them. So that's really a lot to take in. So in the end, with Horace Mann, there were credible abuse accusations against around twenty two teachers. In the spring of twenty thirteen, the school finally issued a public acknowledgment for the abuse by former teachers and administrators between nineteen sixty two and nineteen ninety six. They said, yeah, we sincerely apologize, and then it was a three page letter, and I guess one of the phrases that people liked to quote was these unconscionable betrayals of trust never should have happened. So now, at this point, the statute of limitations for criminal charges has passed, but a civil case can still be brought, and Horace Man does have a lot of money. When one Horace Man survivor asked for compensation, he was told by the chairman of the board of trustees, it's not Horace Man's bill to pay sounds very like Groden's character. Eventually, the school hired a private mediation firm which presented the board of trustees with impact statements from thirty one victims, and then they said settlements.
Had been reached with like the majority of those.
And I heard some of the settlements were from you know, low like ten thousand, all the way up to six figure settlements that depending on how badly the student had been abused, and on whether they had alerted school authorities while it was happening. And then Horace Man, in an attempt to you know, kind of save their reputation, also established the Hilltop Cares Foundation, which was formed in the summer of twenty twelve by members of the community to help victims from the school and promote healing. They help with therapy bills, they help with studies related to the issues in the community, and they are totally nonprofit and independent of the school's admin or board of trustees. So that's what happened to Horace Man, and I feel like SVU just kind of fully ripped it from this article. I have other sources that I used as well, But the New York Times article is really what blew the lid off this whole thing.
And is the school still open and thriving, you bet?
And I think in twenty twenty it was ranked in some niche it's called the Niche Survey the third best K through twelve private school in the country and the twelfth best private high school in the country. So it's still thriving and doing fine.
Wow.
But you know, since this story came out, they found additional Saint Paul School, Exeter, and over all kinds of private schools and boarding schools in the Northeast.
They uncovered a lot of these kind of abuses. Yeah, because you don't need as many rules, like if you're private, like I taught physical education at a Jewish school and I didn't have a degree. Yeah, you can do whatever you want. It seems like in private schools you can hire whatever.
And they do sort of have their own like little ecosystem going on. But they are not above the law, unfortunately, Yeah, I mean not unfortunately.
Fortunately, they're not above the law.
So in terms of covering up their crimes, unfortunate for them. You guys actually have to listen to the law. Sorry, So you know, it was very similar, I feel like the real case to the case in the episode, where in real life they did want some financial compensation, whereas in the episode they were like, we just want an apology. But I think also they just wanted the school. In real life, they just wanted Horace Man to acknowledge it. And I think that when they finally did that in twenty thirteen, that was when people were able to start, you know, hopefully healing and you know, just not feeling gas lit and crazy that this school won't acknowledge what was going on for three decades at your school.
Yeah, and I like the new kind of hopefully it's not just a trend. But it seems like kids, like parents aren't forcing their kids to hug people they don't want to hug their before explicit and like how to handle situations like this, And I hope, I hope it helps stop it being able to be like a whole school situation, you know, like kids being taught this from a younger age. But I don't know.
Look, ultimately, a heavy case, a heavy crime, but a star setted episode. I mean, we got Anthony Rapp, we had Elliott Gould. We had all these you know, Charles Groden, Charles Groden, Oh my god, I love that movie Clifford.
It's so crazy. Have you ever seen it? No, Maybe we'll hang out and we'll watch Clifford in American History as a double feature.
That's the most insane double feature of all time. If you think you have a better, more insane double feature than Clifford and American History acts, please dm us.
We will put a poll up. That is so funny.
We're gonna do that, all right, Hang tight, because here comes our interview with our guests.
All right, let's get to our guest.
I have a feeling that some of you listeners are going to be real jazz for this one. We today are talking to a star of stage and screen, the man who plays Lieutenant Commander Paul Stammetz in Star Trek Discovery and who No Big Deal originated the role of Mark Cohen in a little musical you may have heard of called Rent, but you know him this week as Nathan Forrester in the episode's Lessons Learned. Guys, please just get a load of our chat with Anthony Rapp. Obviously you've done two episodes, two pretty well known episodes. But well, today we're talking about lessons learned, but we also are going to ask you some questions about Bound as well. But when terms of lessons learned, like, this was your second role on the show, So did they just come to you and say, hey, do you want to come back, we have this cool part for you or whatever?
Yeah, both times they actually reached out, and I was for years one of what I felt like, I was one of the only actors left in New York who had not been on any of the Law and Orders. And that was even after my really good friend and original Red cast mate Jesse Martin being one of the leads on Lawn Right, I was never on any of them. I was like looking around, like when is it gonna happen? So I was really honored that I didn't even have to audition, that they just asked me to do it, you know. Bound. It was partly because they I think, I don't know if it was like concurrent they had, I guess, Jane Krakowski myself in mind together, but they just felt like we would be a convincing brother and sister. And then I don't know, honestly, like why they thought of before Lessons Learned, but again that they just reached out and offered it to me. It was really really a thrill and an honor to be asked back. And I know that that's that's also a different a different kind of badge of honor for New York based actors is like how many times have you been on any honor?
Right?
You know?
So, how was working with Charles Grodin and Lessons Learned? I mean, he's kind of he's a legend, and you had to have this like confrontational, like screw you dad kind of moment with him.
Yeah, that was that was one of the very biggest thrills of doing that episode was learning that he was going to be playing my father. I was a huge fan of his, especially Midnight Run Like that was one of in my younger days. That was a movie that I just it was one of those movies that you going in. I didn't expect it to be as excellent as it was. It was just continually surprising, and he was so good in it. And then of course I'd seen other things that he'd done, So when I learned that he was going to be part of it, I was excited, hopeful, that he was going to be a cool person, because whenever you meet people you really admire, you always hope that. And then he was beyond a coal person and he was so he was so like willing to like hang out and talk and share stories and he I don't know if you're aware of this, but I don't know if it's still the case, but he was deeply he was talking mostly about a cause that he's been deeply involved in for a long time, which is trying to exonerate working toward exoneration of women who are wrongly accused wow slash, trying to improve the way that they're treated while they're incarcerated. So it was like one of his he's like, all you like that's that was like his whole work, outside of any kind of show but stuff was all of that, and I think, if I remember correctly, he was like when we were done shooting, he was going right up again upstate to spend time at the prison where he was currently engaged in working with some prisoners up there. So that was really impressive.
Wow, this is kind of a silly question, but I did notice that your character in this episode was wearing a variety of Wilco T shirts. Was that something that you were like, hey, this guy seems like he would like Wilco. Or was the wardrobe department, like, hey, you're a Wilco fan.
There was a wardor of department that I was like, absolutely, that makes total sense to me. So, yeah, it's fit, you know. I mean guys like trying to like half assed make it in music or do a banding, So what makes us a band that would ring true? You know? Yeah, and it seemed like it was the right kind of band that he would wear.
Yes, totally and in this episode, Like I mean, I personally was living in New York at the time that your episode aired and at the time that the horus Man's story kind of broke.
Did you know a lot about that story going into this?
I mean, I feel like there was a bunch of media coverage about it, but I don't know what you know.
Yeah, I really didn't. I mean, I do know. I'm generally aware that as you and law and order in general take their story through their inspiration for their stories from headlines or from actual cases. So I don't remember being directly aware, but it certainly rang true to me, and it made a lot of sense, and it felt like something really important to talk about. You know, Institutional cover up is a I mean, it is just a sad reality in so many ways, as we've just seen, you know, when I don't know when this will be airing, but you know, the George Floyd case was an example. If there were if there weren't for that camera there knew. The press release was that he died, you know, from a medical condition, and that may have been it, you know, and that's there's so many, so many cases of institutional cover up and of sort of the old boy the notion of an old boy network that protect their own, you know. And I did a play years and years ago called Sophistry with Ethan Hawk and Jonathan Mark Sherman, and that was that was based on something that had happened at Bettington College where they where John thea Musham and went to school where there was you know, whenever you have situations with with the beloved or powerful figure at an institution, it just gets it can get so weirdly complicated in so many ways. So I think that this episode was deeply important in terms of exposing that talking about that, pointing to that and trying to reckon with it, and that the law is in many ways hamstrong at times, you know, to get evidence.
Is really hard, Yeah, especially these cases that are that are old and there's statut of limitations and things like that, And.
It adds like to the annoyance when things go down and people are like, we'll go to the cops or do this or do that, and it's like, it's so much harder than that, and why, Like, it's frustrating when people don't see how difficult it is to come forward or have anything. Then positive happen from that. Anyways, on I guess a lighter note, is there any of your rent casts made so that you would love to see on SVU?
Well, honestly don't know who all's been on which of the which ones has? I mean, I always am so happy when Moist and Jermaine Ready just in front of a camera get to do just to show saying Daffy rubin Vega has she been?
I think Daphney Rubin Vega has been on one, if not SVU, I think she's been on the Mothership, but I think I'm almost positive she has.
I mean Freddie Walker, I mean all of them anyway, yeah, yeah, just like at this point, come on.
Is that what you get recognized the most from or now with the Star Trek fan universe?
Is that it's hard to tell these things. It's probably a mixture of both. It does happen, and it happens like when I travel internationally, you know, it's kind of a wild thing.
Yeah, I can kind of feel like I can.
Feel it happening, like I don't know if when you talk to other people who get recognized, like you can kind of like it's like almost like I feel like an energetic, you know, magnetic vibration coming. And I was like, okay, I'm getting recognized.
You know, because somebody is usually staring at you for a few minutes before, so I think you're feeling the power of the stair for Yeah, I.
Played poker pretty regularly when it's not pandemic time, like you know. And my friend Kurt, he's really closer in mind. When we sit at a table together, he will try to like have me guess, like if he sees that somebody's recognizing me or they're going to ask me, He's like, what do you think they recognized your from? So we have this little thing like trying, I guess, and a lot of times I can, like sometimes there it's like road trip or Days Confused. Yeah, you know so, but sometimes we're surprised. Sometimes we're surprised.
We're big, dazed and huge. Yeah, And like Adventures in Babysitting, I mean, I can't believe that that was like your Is that like your first that's like your first major credit Adventures and Babysitting, that's my first film. Yeah.
Wow, And I was fifteen when I did it.
He knocked it out of the park.
Thank you.
While you were on the set of Days, did it feel extra special, like did you know everyone was gonna be awesome forever?
Well, I mean I didn't know that. You never know that, but it thought incredibly special. It was a wonderful project to be a part of it.
Yeah, it feels like everybody became so hugely famous after that in that movie.
Yeah, I mean, you know, that's just sort of like, oh, that's cool that happened, you know. I mean I loved watching Parker Posi work. I loved watching Matt mcconne work. I don't know necessarily that means they're going to be superstars, right, I'm not surprised that they're superstars. You know, I think they deserve it. But yeah, it was a really really special experience of people coming together and Rick Link later creating a wonderfully collaborative creative environment in which we felt very free to do our thing. And there was a lot of purity in that experience that I would love to be a part of everything I do, and sometimes it gets close to that, but that's it was extra special. Yeah.
Can I ask a quick question about SPU because you did do the two episodes, So Bound was in two thousand and four, Lessons Learned was in two thousan twelve, so eight years passed between you go doing these two Did you feel any like differences on the set between like the two times?
Huge difference. So the main consistent piece was Marishia and both times she was wonderful, and it was especially impressive to come back eight years later and see how hard she works, that she's you know, so involved as not just as the star but also as a producer. She cares as much eight years later as she did eight years before, and having been on various film sets and TV shows. You know, the number one on the call sheet they called me like that's the term we call it the league. They set a tone, and the tone that she sets is a wonderful tone that uh, and she's she was incredibly welcoming both times, so I so appreciate her and appreciate that about the spirtsial times. The number two was very different both times. It was Chris Maloney the first time, and then it was, uh, it was great, it was great, great, great. Chris Maloney was not great to me. To me, like in terms of how he treated me, it was not great great, that's terrible, not great. Mariska one hundred percent beautiful experience working with Jane Krakowski, one hundred percent beautiful experience. Chris Maloney was having issues and I was lying dead on the floor in my own blood for far too long while Chris Molley worked out some of his issues. I mean it was his his issues were like his own frustrations with what he was doing. But he just it just didn't you know, he wasn't at all gracious about the fact that I was lying on the ground in my own blood for like a really long time while he was, you know, having his issues. So yeah, Marishka genius. I love it, and you know, like a shining example of what that person in that position should how they should always connect to.
Yeah, that's truly what many people have told us. That she's just like sets the whole tone and she's just so wonderful and well dying to talk to her one day.
So let me ask you a question.
So in your first episode, while you were innocent, you were kind of a jerk, and then in your second episode you were a victim. So like, let's say they're having you come back for your third SVU. You're a totally new character. What what are you itching to play? Do you want to be like a serial killer like a cool teacher?
Yeah, I got to do it. I got to I don't know if you were here. The show was very shortly called Kidnapped. It was a while ago, okay, but I got to play a serial killer on that, and it was it was a really cool like world to dig into and just sort of like explore, you know, as an actor. So yeah, that it would be cool to play somebody kind of diabolical, you know. I think it's really one of the jobs of an actor is to pull a mirror up to all sizes of the human experience and you know, for better or worse. There are serial killers, maniacs, narcissistic personality disorder, people who are president, stuff like that. So I think that it's important to have opportunities to live inside those characters, to kind of show the world who they are as a way of helping understand more aspects of the human condition and how you combat that.
And do you end up having to like have empathy for the evil people you play? Are you abble to not do that and still understand you kind of have.
To have You have to live in their shoes. So you know, every person is the star of their own story, so you have to find some way to You can't condescend to them. That doesn't mean that I personally will ever agree with them or believe that they're right, but they have to believe that, so you can't. That's my business, my you know, philosophical approach to acting. I can't judge them while I'm playing. So when I was in school ties, i played a virulent anti Semite. So it was really hard, Like I had to spend one day of shooting, I had to spend thirteen hours just saying terrible things. Terrible things had to come out of my mouth for thirteen hours. I did, however, have to find why is this person? What is driving this person to behave this way? And you know, I could ultimately kind of understand that people who exhibit this so much, they're threatened, they're afraid, is what they grow up with. It's a way, it's a defense mechanism, all those things. So I can understand that as a human being. Doesn't mean I will ever agree with him, but I do have to commit fully to it while I'm playing, right, I have to honor it as their argument beings who behave this way, and it's my job to bring the truth of that to the forefront when I'm playing it because because the story. I would never do it if it was a story that was trying to say this is the right way to think, if this was if the story was in it right, But I had an obligation to play it to the help that makes sense.
Yeah, that's cool. Can we so can we talk a little bit about your Star Trek character because my husband was telling me that your character is openly gay and is the only is like the first openly gay character on Star Trek, Yes, which is shocking because Star Trek has always been like very racially diverse, and like, you know, my husband's like a huge star trek person. So it's just interesting that it took like till, you know, twenty seventeen or I'm sorry, whenever the show began for you that it would be that it would take that long for them to be an openly gay character.
Yeah, and so Jonathan Franks, who was the original Wriker in Next Gen, he's become a friend. He's directed several of our episodes. He's a great person and he's very open talking about his experiences being on the show. There were times when they were doing Next Generation where they were agitating for some kind of gay storyline, gay characters, and at the time, the network was just saying no, no, no. So, you know, Gene Roddenbert, we talked to George Taka back in the day about maybe Supa could be gay. But it's like Gene Rodberts, like, I want to, but the network would never allow. It's hard enough to get a black woman on the bridge. It's hard enough to you know, do to have you on the bridge. You know, we got to take the steps that we can take them. So there's always been from the inside a desire for it. It just sadly took too long. And at the same time, I'm incredibly honored that I am that I get to carry that mantle. And then alongside me is Wilson Cruiz has placed my character's partner, and now we have the first ever non binary character played by a non binary actor, Blue del Barrio, and the first ever trans character played by a transactor, Ian Alexander So and take Nataro is like a recurring character of lesbian character. So it's like it's the queerest track ever, we like to say, you know, but it's been profoundly embraced by the fandom, the straight end and queer fandom.
I love it. It's like when it rains, it pores.
And Cruta has had a very big queer fanom forever, yeah, alongside all the tons of other fans also, So there's been a hunger for it.
I'm glad.
I'm so glad the floodgates are open now and everybody's coming to the Star Trek party.
What else are you up to?
Do you have other projects that are going on besides or are you just like focused on Star Trek right now or.
That's the big active project I have. I'm also I write sometimes and I was invited to contribute a story to an anthology that's coming out this summer called Swordstone Table, and it's like modern and alternate universe takes on some of the Arthurian legends and it's by queer and writers of color. It's like taking those seeds and kind of spitting them out. So I contributed a story to that anthology that I'm really proud of being a part of that. So that comes out. I think it's June or July that it comes out.
Are you dying to get back on stage or you're having a.
I'm I'm not dying to I mean I would love sitting back the stage. Yeah, but you know I would love for stage to be back so I can also be an audience member.
Well that's what I was gonna say. That was my next question is do you have like a dream theater going experience that you like think about during like I have thought about this year where you're like, I can't wait to grab dinner there, go there see this play that you know or shows that you missed out on because the pandemic happened.
Yeah, I mean there were things that were in the pipeline. It's hard to even remember exactly what was happening because I've been here also in Toronto, so it's I mean, I got I was lucky to see Slave Play, you know, before it closed. It was an extraordinary evening of theater. My brother had a play on Broadway called The Sound Inside that with Mary Louise Parker. That was a beautiful, a beautiful play, you know, So things like that. You know, I got to see the original cast of Hamilton several times, you know, but just anything that I can go in the theater and what the Constitution means to me was one of the things that I saw in the last couple of years before you know, before it being changed. These are the kinds of experiences that I want to go to the theater to have.
Yeah, well, we also were kind of wondering, like how does it work, Like after you're like a Broadway legend who's been in rent and you want to go see Broadway shows, do they just give you like a legend card and you just get in, or like do you stuff the shows.
Go to shows? Yeah, you don't. These producers do not get free tickets. They get free tickets to Tony voters and press, and that's pretty much it.
Oh No, I wanted to hear like a cool card you guys all had.
Yeah, I mean so my fiance wanted he you know, I didn't really want to see necessarily, but he wanted to, so I wanted to take him to see Hello Dolly. So I was like, I could. What I can do is I can write to my manager and saying, can you help your raise tickets? But it's not the pay for them.
But they did, you see.
Bet No, we didn't go because they wanted They wouldn't even offer regular tickets. They would only offer the ultra premium tickets. And I'm like, I'm sorry, I'm not paying almost two thousand dollars to go to see that to learn how a dollar I'm just not doing it, So forgive me, I'm not doing it.
I went twice. I did it. I said a lot.
I'm happy for you.
I had to see her. Oh that was cool. That was so fun.
I feel like my high school self is totally freaking out. My best friend has like a Rent tattoo, Like we were so into Rent in high school and to talk to him was a total dream. So I'm so happy he took the time to talk to us. Now let's get into our post mortem. Lisa, what'd you learn from lessons learned? What are the lessons that you learned?
Honestly, I learned that I go YadA, YadA, YadA way too much in this episode. I was I was like a Seinfeld episode. I kept like, so you know then that happens.
I mean, I learned that people really thought the seventies were like a lawless wasteland of job molestation, and I can't believe it's just not generally accepted that a teacher should not have any kind of sexual touch with a student.
But here, Yeah, I wish I learned more, But I think it's like, I guess I learned that I was right in the world is the worst and that institutional rape is fucked up and we need to burn the patriarchy to the ground. I don't know, I can't even Yeah that I learned that parents will still continue to send their kids to a rape school, Like I don't know, that seems crazy, That's what I was going to say.
I'm like, I learned that, like it's sort of like reputation and all that it seems to be more important than like doing the right thing for a lot of parents in terms of like elite private schools, like I would have respected a school that, like you said, nipped it in the bud was like, we took care of this problem, but this school is still completely thriving after this massive scandal from almost a decade ago.
Ranked Yeah highly. I learned that the costume department's pretty cool with their will co subliginal messages like I mean, we need we need to talk to someone from the costume department. It is just too they are too good, not we need scoop.
Yeah, yeah, we're And I think the will go shirt goes on our list of questions. Yeah, and I guess keep your eyes open, Like if your son clearly has all these struggles and is like not thriving, it might be because you let him be exposed to a child molester for a long time because you just love your own high school so much.
Yeah. Also, don't love your high school. Yeah that's weird. It's weird. It's weird. Stop loving your high school so much. Geez, Okay, I love my high school. I'm sorry. Do you have a class ring and a shirt? What do you have? I still have my senior shirt, not a class ring. I have my swim team shirt, but it's a baseball cut and I love baseball three quarter length shirts a lot. I mean, I was editor of the yearbook, I was treasurer of the school. I had a great time.
But I'm not like I can't look at any of the bad problems that have happened in my high school because it's.
Too great of a place. Yeah, if there's any changes in your child in behavior, wardrobe, attitude, grades, anything, don't just ignore it. Don't just go I guess hormones or they're a loser, Like something happened. Something happened.
Investigating right, pay attention to your child's moods. And for this week's what would Sister Peg Do, which is our weekly segment where we direct you guys towards resources or organizations that can give you more information on the topic we covered in today's episode, I just kind of want to point everybody to the New York Times article that blew the whole roof off of this scandal by Amos Camille, who is a or camel I'm sorry if I'm saying his name incorrectly, but we will have that linked in our show notes and in our Instagram stories. You can find all of our what would Sister peg do segments in a highlight on our Instagram. By the way, if you want to go back and support any of the organizations we've linked to you in the past.
Also, you said Amos, and that reminded me of Famous Amos Cookies, and that reminded me that he was on an episode of Shark Tank if that interests any of our listeners.
But any of the guy who invented famous amous cookies was on an episode of Shark Tank.
Yeah, with like a new product. They are my favorite cookies. I love them so much. I thought you were going to say, shut up, why are you talking? No, I can't believe it. They grasped you. No.
They are so good and crunchy and that is really really exciting. And I'm sorry that we just bounced right from a expos on school molestation to cookies, but that's kind of what this podcast is.
So wait, are you a crunchy cookie over a soft cookie? Girl?
It depends like if it's soft from like a bakery, yes, but like if I'm buying it in a grocery store, like I like a tats I like a famous Amos crunchy.
Oh tates don't like unions or something. Yeah, tastes but they're delicious. Yeahh god, now I want an oreo. Okay. Next week's episode will be Collateral Damages Season seventeen, episode fifteen. As always, Hulu, Peacock, your local library, message us on the internet. We're around, Send us some memes, and we're so grateful for anyone that listens and likes us. Thank you. Yeah, see you guys next week. Bye bye. That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.
If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email at That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.
Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at Kara Clank and at Glitter Cheese.
As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.
Thank you so much much to SBU super fan and our incredible producer, Hannah Kyle Kraton.
And to our sound engineer and personal hero Analie Snilson, and.
To Henry Koperski for our theme song. To Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork.
Thanks to our executive producers Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgarrif, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.
Listen, subscribe, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're an advertiser interested in advertising on our show, go to midroll dot com slash ads Done Done
