Hey, guys, welcome back to tell me about it. I'm Jade Ivy, and on this show we get it all out in the open. Our mistakes, the lessons we learned the hard way, are insecurities, most epic face plants, and everything in between to hopefully remind us all that even the women we've deemed perfect also have lives that are far from so. Today, I have to start with some sad news. We're taking a two week break starting next week, but the good news is we'll be back Tuesday, May fourth with an unbelievable episode with Laura Wasser. It's truly incredible. I can't wait for you guys to hear it. So while we're apart, let's definitely text or leave me a voicemail so we don't have to miss each other too much. The number is on my Instagram bio and we'll be in the show notes of this episode, But just to remind you, it's four one, five eight, four nine zero to nine nine. Today I have a very honest and very enlightening conversation with Ali Webb, and I'm extremely excited for you guys to hear it. You probably know Ali's name if you frequented dry bar as much as I have, but since she launched that genius business in two thousand ten, she's been very busy, to say the least. In our conversation, we talked about how Ali struggled for years and her twenties to try to figure out exactly what she wanted to do with her life, which I think a lot of us can relate to, when it looked like everyone else she knew had figured it all out. We talked about the beauty of a pivot and how sometimes trying the wrong thing, even a whole bunch of times, can lead you to the right thing. We discussed the difference between your twenties and thirties, and went into incredible detail about Ali's divorce the toilet took on her self esteem and mental health, and how she miraculously came out on the other side with not only a new fiance, but an ex husband who continues to be her business partner and amicable co parent. I told Ali she should be the poster child the divorce because she really went through it and all the wisdom she has from that experience is just fascinating and empowering. But first things first, let me tell you a little more about her. Ali Webb is a New York Times bestselling author, co founder of dry Bar and her brand new venture which I Am Definitely gonna use soon, Squeeze, which is poised to be the dry bar of massage. After spending fifteen years as a professional hair stylist, Ali left the hair industry to start a family, but after being a stay at home mom for five years, she decided to find a way to continue pursuing the creative side of hairstyling at a new mom pace. She began offering affordable in home blowout services to her mommy friends, which quickly expanded into a mobile operation. In two thousand and ten, Ali opened the first dry bar in Los Angeles, California, well Brent Would to be specific. Now, with over a hundred and fifty locations across the US, Dry Bar has exploded into a nationally recognized and highly sought after brand, recently selling their popular hair product division to Helen of Troy for two hundred and fifty five million dollars. Ali also hosts a popular podcast called Raising the Bar with her fiance and executive coach Adrian Koehler, giving a glimpse into the inner worlds of entrepreneurs. In two thousand nineteen, Ali opened the doors to her next business venture, Squeeze, an innovative massage concept whose first location is set in Los Angeles. Lucky for me, So get your vaccine and go get a massage. Most recently, Ali joined forces with Meredith Quill to build yet another new brand called Beckett and Quill Jewelry that's high end, not high spend. Ali lives in Los Angeles with her fiance Adrian, and two teenage sons, who you'll hear all about in our conversation. So, now that you've heard about her thousands of business ventures, here is Ali Webb. Hi, Ali, Hi, how are you? I'm great, Thanks for having me, Thanks for coming on. I love this pink sweater. Oh thank you. I was feeling like I needed a little brightness today, So I know, I called them like seratonin sweaters because like, I wear like a bright sweater when I'm like feeling depressed, and I'm like this makes me feel so much that I just felt like I needed a pop up color this morning. Yes, here we are, So let's talk about two things. You had a birthday recently and an engagement. Yes, things have been kind of crazy over here. Yes, so I need, I need, I need the story. You probably told the story fifteen thousand times, but oh no, it's I love telling it. You know, we had been taught. We've been together about a year and a half, and we've been talking about getting married, and we looked at rings and all of that stuff, but you know, I didn't want to know much more than that, and I wanted it to be a surprise. So you knew it was like coming, but like didn't. I knew it was coming, but I didn't know like, you know, when. And so I actually had a weekend like with my girlfriend's planned and I that week he called all my three girlfriends that I went away with, who are like my best friends, affectionately known as the bunnies, and he was like he told them all that he wanted to propose to me that weekend, and we had we had planned to night. We were just doing like a staycation. We stayed at this new hotel and silver like, and then we were going to have brunch the next morning. Paige, my very best friend, she had even sent a note around to the group saying, hey, guys, we're like something nice for our brunch. We can have our annual picture together again at that point, but I didn't. I didn't put it together because we do do that and we do like like to have like a nice picture together. So no idea. But then that morning, it was Sunday morning, I was going to I was trying to cancel and get out of the brunch because I wanted to go. Of course, I was like, hey, I really want to go. I don't know if you're familiar with the l A flower truck, but I was on Sundays and get flowers for the weekend. Like I really enjoy doing that, and I love putting arrangements together. It's like my It's like my my little zan bunch. Yeah. And I was like, you guys, we've been together for like the last twenty four hours. I want to really want to go. It's only between like nine and eleven brunch for Surbation attend. I was like, so I bail and they're like, no, you can't, and I was like why. I'm like, we've been together. And I was texting Adrian and I was like, Adrian, I really want to go to the flower mart. I'm trying to get out of brunch. And I was like, unless you would just go and get flowers for me and he's like, yeah, babe, I'll totally go. And it was just very much like him. He's so like, so sweet, generous like that. So I was like, okay. So we get to the brunch. We're sitting down and then they all ordered like cocktails at like eleven whatever, and I was like what. And I was like I'm just gonna have an Americano and like whatever, and so we ordered food. As soon as the food came, Paige looked at me and she handed me a card which was on Adrian's like personal stationary and I recognized that and I was like, what's happening? Why are you giving me stationary from Adrian? And so my heart started beating fast and there was this really sweet note and then my other friend Sarah handed me another note, and my friend Lauren had handed me another note, and so I'm reading these like not you know I when you read something but you do not comprehend it. And I was like because my heart was beating so fast, and I was like, something is up. And then as soon as I read that the last card, he walked in and I was like, what are you doing here? And he had the ring in his hand. The first thing he said, which I don't think the video caught and I didn't even really hear. It was like he said you're mine and this is yours and then got down on one knee and said, you know, will you marry me? In and it but it was such a blur because I was so and even in the I think in the video you can hear I'm like, where are the kids? Like it was just so like I couldn't like comprehend what was going on because I knew he had the kids and it was really awesome. It is so sweet. So then did he stay for lunch after? And you guys like did your thing or did you go like straight home? We the food was there, so we ate a little bit, but I couldn't eat, like because I was so so amped up. Yeah, and but we sat there for a few minutes and you know, it was I have to say, it was really lovely because you know, to propose to me in front of like my all my best friends was so nice because you know, they were able to not only witness it, but the video. Jap didn't took pictures and to be a part of it, so in the scenery was so pretty. It was just like perfect, like he couldn't have done it any better, And I was like just over the mood. I love an engagement story. I love that story. It's so good. It's so good. So that's like you're happy ending like where you are right now. But let's go back in time. I'm going to make you suffer through your past, you know, and really dissect it. But I like to start talking about your twenties, because like, your twenties are just a ship show. They're hard. You're just comparing yourself to other people, thinking that everyone has it more together than you, and you are the epitome of success, you know, like you've had such incredible things happen in your life and you've created such incredible things. But I didn't realize that you started dry Bar in two thousand ten. So tell me about what you were like when you were twenty five? What was your life? Like? Who are you? So? You know, like I was gonna say, like a true twenty year old, you know, I was all over the place, but you know I was really lost for a long time. And you know it's like even out of high school, you know, my friends were like going to college like most people did, and they had ideas about what they wanted to do with their lives and I really didn't. And my parents had their own clothing stores. I loved like fashion. I loved New York like I wanted to have that kind of life. I thought, I didn't know, you know, and I was so and I did not like school. So I was like, I don't really want to go to college and I so I ended up moving to New York City when I was like eighteen. I think I went to like I mean I did. I think I went to Florida State for like a hot second. I know I did. I did. It was such a blur of a time, though, because it was such a short amount of time. Like a lot of my friends, because I grew up in South Florida in Bokeraton, a lot of my friends went to Florida State and UF and so I was like, Okay, I'll just go there. My brother had gone to Dallahassee and so I was like, I'll just go and do that. And I don't even I didn't really go to class, and I was like, I didn't. I didn't want to. I wasn't interested in anything. And so I was like this is It was more just like let me experience like college, like this looks seems like fun. And so I did that for like the first year out of high school, and it was like not what I wanted to be doing, and I didn't like it. And so after that I was really struggling with what am I going to do now? And I the only thing that like I could think of that I really was interested in exploring, I guess was was New York City. I loved New York as a kid. My parents took us a lot and we went to Broadway shows and I remember being in the city and now I see it when I've been in the city with my boys, it's like it's really electric. And when you you know, when you've lived in like suburban and then you go to New York City, you're like, holy sh it, very different than amazing, very different than poke up. And I totally fell in love with it. So I was like, I'm gonna move to New York and my parents are like, what are you gonna do in New York? And I was like, I'm just I don't know. I'll figure it out. And I really did, and I had like a handful of friends there who went to n y U from from high school. And so I went to New York and it was really like exactly how you would imagine it to be in terms of like I lived in like the teeniest apartment. I was like, you know, eating ramen. I had no money made. My parents helped pay for my apartment, but they were like, you're gonna have to work, you know, We're not going to just pay for everything. And so I was like, but I loved it. This is back when like rollerblading was the thing. Like I had rollerblade all over the city with like my headphones on, and I felt like I was in a movie my you know, my poor mother, like you know. And now I understand that because my my sixteen year old son is so much like I was, and he's he just wants to be out and get it right back right, So I totally get it back. Although my son is like planning a European vacation and he's sixteen, and I'm like without you know, with his friends, and I'm like, I mean, he's really independent, but and so was I. And so you know, I I was living in New York and I've loved it. I didn't care that I was living in like a teeny tiny place in like a twin bed like three other girls, and but I loved it. And so I did that for a while, and then I worked for Cynthia Raleigh, who was like a big designer at the time, and Nicole Miller, and then I moved. When I was working for Nicole Miller, my brother was also my brother, Michael Landa, who's my business partner in dry Bar. He was living in New York too, and he was working for Nicole Miller Corporate, and I was working for Nicole Miller in the Soho store, which I sadly isn't there anymore. And we decided to go back to South Florida to open up Nicole Miller Boutiques in Boca. Okay, so did he have the job before? And like he didn't. Okay, he helped me get the job in the Soho star manager. Yeah, um is, We're both living in New York and like it was super fun and then we decided to go back. It was kind of Michael's idea, like let's go back and open up, and he's like, you can run the stores, and so I did that. And that was like at the right age of like twenty two maybe twenty one, so you knew, like hair, you wanted to be in hair in some capacity. No, that was just retail. That was fashion. Yeah, And so that point I thought that's what I wanted to do, like being fashion because my parents did and I liked fashion, and I thought that. But I was like, after doing that for a little while, I was like, oh, this is not good. And Michael and I were fighting a lot. We were we were much younger, and so I was like, this is not what I want to do with the rest of my life, because you know, like I said, at like twenty one, I was like managing to retail locations. And I was just like, this is not what I want to do. And and so I went to my brother. It was like one of those really hard decisions. I went to my brother and I was like, Mike, I don't think I want to do this anymore. I think I want to go to beauty school because I wanted to pursue hair. And you know, growing up in Book Region, Florida, where it's like humid city, my my naturally holy hair was like fristed out. My I went to University of Miami and oh yeah, oh my god, I have never been humbled by my hair so much. I was worse because it's like literally moisture. There's no point in doing your hair because like what how you leave and how you will come home are completely different, Like it's a disaster. I've given so many like you know, tips and jerks and magazines and things over the last ten years about I'm like, listen, do am TI like to raise the frizz because you're gonna have There's no way when you know, literally it's watcher in your hair. You know, it's like there's no way. So so my whole like my whole childhood. I mean I used to beg my mom to blow out my hair. I was always really obsessed with trying to figure out how to get my frizzy, curly hair straight. And it was like a losing battle in South Florida. Which is why I know LA and I don't think I'll live anywhere else. LA is good for the hair. LA is Great's so good. I find New York to be great for the hair. Also, though the water does something nice it is and I don't know what that is either. It is true the bagels and the hair it's good for whatever that water is. Are you in l A or New York? I'm in l A. You are, yeah, yeah. I feel like I just I feel like this is like once I finally moved here, I was like, this is yes. Yeah. So anyways, we were you know, I decided to like leave that relationship with my brother, and he was like, couldn't have been more supportive, even more so than my parents were. My parents were like, you want to go to beauty school and you know, and they didn't see like my vision for it. And my vision at the time was that I would go to beauty school and then I moved back to New York and do hair and do like fashion shows and editorial and that's really thought what I thought I would do. So I went to Bookridge Home Beauty School and notssing fancy, oh gosh, and I worked. I worked for this guy, John Peters, who had a salon. He was like my best friend's dad. He had a salon and and so I worked for him, and he was amazing and he taught me like everything I know about hair. And he also inadvertently which I wasn't paying attention to, because he was the owner of the salon. I learned by just observing watching him deal with clients and deal with the staff and all of that. And so I know that that ended up being something that came really unhandy to me later, but at the time I wasn't even like paying attention to consciously. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was really cool. And so I worked for him for a while, and then he turned me onto this guy, Johnson Hogg, who was like the hairdresser in New York at that time, twenty years ago, maybe even twenty five years ago. He was like the pioneer of dry cutting. He was doing all the big celebrities, and he was like the place that you went. And I was like, this is the only guy I'm going to work for. And you know, I walked into his salon in New York City. Now I'm like all of like twenty five or six, got a job there, worked there for a while, and then realized like I didn't want to do hair anymore and I wanted to do something else. And I had a couple of friends who were working in Rodgers and Cowen and actually like in the music department. They and they there was an opening. Ironically, I thought I wanted to go into fashion, but there was an opening in the music department and it was like clients like Paul McCartney and Jenna Johnson and Faith Hill, and I was like, that sounds fun. Yeah, so wait, so I got a job being an assistant there and that was like my first office job. So I was like, I had had my own cubicle, which I thought was so cool because I've never worked in that kind of environment and and so I, you know, I learned how to write write press releases and I used to get to go to cool concerts and I thought like that was the coolest job. And that's that's when I met my now ex husin Cam who was in advertising, and when I was working at that job, and then we we got together, got married, and then moved eventually to l A and I became a stay at home mom and and the rest is history. And the rest is kind of history because it was being a stay at her mom for five years that ultimately led me to start my own mobile blowout business because I felt like I needed to get out of the house and do something for myself. So yeah, I mean that's pretty much the story. Yeah, so when you I want to kind of like dissect those moments where, like you went back from when you started working in music, Were you like, all of my friends know what they want to do forever and I don't, like I'm starting in this new industry. What did I feel like at that time? Did you feel like I have no fucking idea what I want to do? Yes, I didn't, but you know, I was always and I feel like it was such a blessing in disguise. I mean, I think people were like my parents and people around me were like, what Sali doing now? You know, It's like she's so flaky and she is jumping around from thing to think and I was jumping around from things to think. But I was I was really like following what was like exciting and fun to me, you know. And I think that, like, again, it's like a big the biggest piece of advice I give to people is like, follow what lights you up, Like what gets you out of bed in the morning, you know. And if it doesn't get you out of bed in the morning and you're not excited to do it, like do something else. And that was kind of you know, I don't think I could have articulated that back then, but I was doing that, you know, I was like, I don't really want you know, I loved hair and I love doing here, and I love that I learned how to blow out my own curly hair, and and I loved the industry. But I was like, I don't really want to I don't want to do this for the rest of my life. And so I was like, I want to try something else, and like, you know, PR wasn't going to be it, but maybe it would have been it. You know, it was just another thing that I tried, and so yes, I was like, I'm going to keep doing what makes me happy. And around that time, I also was like, you know, very eager to like meet my husband. I really wanted to have babies. Like then at that point, I was like very you know once you were like focused on yeah, and I'm pretty like, you know, it's a bad analogy, but like a dog with a bone, like if there's something I want, I cannot stop until I get it, And I'm kind of the same way. Yea. Yeah, So it was cool, like it can be a great quality and a pretty shitty one. Exactly. It can be because I'm obsessive and annoying. But if you ask anybody close to me, they know it's like anything that I get my heart set on for whatever reason just becomes like I'm not stopping until I get it. And so that's really what what happened. And I, you know, I met cam and hold were you when you met him? I guess I was like five or twenties. I guess five. I think we got married when I was seven. I had my first time when I was thirty. Oh wow, okay, so you know, and I did not know who I was. I just knew I wanted babies and and I love and I loved it. You know when I stayed home for five years with my boys, and and then after five years, I was like, oh shit, this is not this is not what I would be doing either anymore. You know. It was like five years of like being a stay at home mom, which I thought. I thought maybe I would be like kind of like a PTA mom and I'd do all this stuff with the school and I'd be helping out and doing all that. And then I was like, where do you live? At that time? We lived in Santa Monica over by like that Whole Foods on Santa Monica Boulevard, and I was in l A. And I was like spending most of my life at the pump station, you know, and I was like, I was happy as a clamp for a while, and so it wasn't you know, And then I was like, shit, I'm not like, I don't feel like I'm using my brain as much as I wanted to be. And I'm at the park all the time and I'm talking to toddlers all day, and I was like, yeah, I need something else. And that's that's where I was like, I think I'm going to start a mobile blow up business, because at that point in my life, I was really good at hair and I had, you know, girlfriends in l A that were always asking me to blow out their hair. And so I was like, maybe she started business and like the entrepreneurial like bug and this thing that I had grown up with had like kicked back in and yeah, and so I decided to start straight at home, which is my mobile business, which you know, ultimately we turned into dry barb. Right. So I think it's interesting because like a lot of people, I'm twenty seven, so a lot of people like my age and younger or whatever, are so afraid of like what you called the flip flop, Like people are so afraid to start, like in a new industry because they feel like there's no through line on my resume or there's no this, so there's no that. And and so I wonder, like, you know, even when you were a stay at home mom, where you like, what does my resume look like? Were you like freaking out about like being hired? Like what did that feel? Like? You know? I wasn't, And I think it was like you know, I think, I guess just like my my makeup of like you know, I have, I've always had this like things kind of work out the way they're supposed to, so you know, and I know you're right because I feel like a lot of people, it's an interesting thing for me because it's like I don't ever read anyone's resume that I'm hiring. I mean, will glance at it just like to get like yeah. It's like I'm like, I don't really care, like I need to know because you can. First of all, you can lie, So I don't know, I you know, but I understand them, but you know, and and but for me, it was like and even now, like when I hire people, it's like I just want to have a conversation with them. I want to get a sense of them. And you know, no matter what, you hiring somebody, you're taking a risk, no matter what you read about them. And you know, for me, I like to be my favorite kind of people. More people who are like recommended from somebody else. I tried, that is usually their ddication. They're vetted in that way. But no, I didn't feel like that. You know, I never felt that pressure. But I know that that's something that really exists, where people feel like they have to do this certain thing or be this this way because they've already started it or like you know that it would just silly because like you probably learned so much like your twenties are for you to be like to find what you like, and to find what you like, you have to like find a lot of things you don't love. Yeah, exactly, And it's really the time, you know, It's like this is it's really the time I think, to to try all these different things exactly, like you know, experiment trying different jobs, like do something crazy, you know, And I think that because you do get you know, as you get older, you get married, and you have kids and responsibilities. It's it's it does become harder, you know, to take that leap of faith and like decide to leave your well paid job to go start your own business. It's you know, So I think it is a good time in your twenties to explore that and not try not to feel the pressure because you you can live, you know, in a in a small apartment and you can save money and you don't you don't have the pressures and like the obligations that you'll have when you're older. So it's the time. Yeah, it's absolutely. Like I just think you always think you're so old, you know, like when you're the oldest I'll ever be when you're you know, so you're just like, oh my, it's too late to start over. But I think that's what's so cool about you, is like you never had that it's too late for me or it's like that's what's attributable to your success obviously, that you're like that you just didn't really look to the left and right of you. I feel like you just kept going forward right like yeah, I mean and even like when I think back to like when we decided to start dry Bar, I mean it was like, like I said, my I was feeling like I needed to do something here myself again. So I started the mobile business. And at that point when I started straight at home, it was like perfect, you know, because it gave me, you know, the opportunity to get out of the house, like be with adults for a couple of hours or a little extra cash, do something I loved. And I remember thinking like, man, that's so exactly what I need right now, you know. But then you know, like evolution and growth, it was like, oh, I'm getting really busy and I'm having to say no more than I'm saying yes, And so now what do I do? Do I hire more people or you know, And that's when the idea of for dry Bar really started like percolating, and I was like, huh, maybe I should open an actual shop where they come to me instead of me go to them. And that was like that was it. That was the big idea, you know, and what idea it was changed my life, I'll tell you yeah. And and that was that was such a crazy thing. And then you know it's like I remembered so well, and you know, we opened dry Bar and people were like obsessed with it and going crazy, and he was getting all this press and I was doing all this TV stuff and I was like, I just happened today, you know, like that, you know, it changed, and I was like and I loved it, and I was so excited. And how old were you at that time? I started dry Bar when I was thirty, I guess, right, well, or thirty five. I'm forty six now, Yes, of thirty five. I started the mobile business when I was like, you know, probably a thirty three ish and so yeah, I was, you know, I was thirty five years old and I felt like I mean, looking back, I don't think I was, but I think I was like relatively content with where my life was. You know, Cam, my ex husband, he was a creative director and advertising good advertising agency here in l A. And he had, you know, he was making good money. And I thought like this was like a nice little life and dry Bar would be like a little attitude to that. Yeah, you know, it would be like my little thing that I would like I could run the shop, go pick up my kids from school and then come home and whatever. And I thought we really thought it would just be one shop before we opened. Men really you know obviously everything changed, Yes, So what do you remember, like, just back to your twenties really quickly, what do you remember being insecure about and like the contrast of twenty to thirty, what do you remember being insecure about in your thirties and what do you remember being insecure about in your twenties. I think in my twenties, I was just not sure who I was, and I was like, I think I was more insecure about like my image and my like the feeling was right, you know. I feel like I know so much more about my body now, which it sounds weird, No it doesn't. I mean I know, like I know what things I can't eat that made me like bloated or you know, puffy, and I know how I just know how to take care of myself so much better than I ever did. I remember my mom saying to me that her thirties like we're really great years for her, and her twenties were like really rocky, and then that, you know, I mean for me, it was like I don't look back at my twenties and think they're rocky. I think of them as being like all over the place and trying to figure out to shoot experimental, and then my thirties, I think it was also a different kind of exploratory, you know, where I was becoming a businesswoman and that was an interesting and new place to be. You know. It was like, obviously I knew the hair industry, and I had gone through what I had gone through with my brother and that was not great. And so we're here, we were talking about working together again, and um, that was a little bit scary, and my parents were a little bit like really yeah, because we had always been super close to our whole lives and then we worked together in Nicole Miller and it almost like killed our friendships totally, and so here we were going to do it again. So my parents were like, are you sure it's a good idea, But it was thank god you did. Thank god I did. And it was great because I really knew hair. So speaking of confidence, like I knew I knew how to make this business work, but I didn't know I didn't have like the business you know, acumen like my brother had, so you know, so it was a really beautiful like chocolate and peanut butter because he knew how to he knew how to like do the back end of the stuff, and I knew how to make a salon be great because of my experience and my my you know, what I learned from my parents about customer service and all of that stuff. So but I'll tell you what was towards the ladder a half of my thirties, because we had now started dry Bar, and very quickly we we ended up raising money through private equity, and so we were like, I found myself sitting in the room with like these really smart and so yeah who had gone to like Stanford and Harvard, and I was like, hey, college, you know. But and so that was a really like daunting experience for me in the beginning. And you know, and I've told this stories of many times, but I remember I would text to my brother and board meetings and be like and asked him a question and he'd be like, you know, because I was afraid to ask it out loud, and he would say, that's a good question. You should ask it. And it was like enough of those times where I finally was like, Okay, I'm actually really smart and have really good things to offer here. I may not be like traditionally book smart and well read the way those guys were, but I had something else, and I finally realized that, you know, in my later half of my thirties, and like then that's when I think I really honestly like came into my own as like a woman, as a person, like found your voice. Yeah, yeah, I found like my sea legs. And you know, it's like I'm like, hey, I'm I'm really smart. Yes, I didn't realize that because I wasn't. I wasn't like book smart. I remember my parents used to say to me that you're They used to tell me I was street smart. Yes, I've gotten that before. Yeah, and you know, you're kind of and I say that to my kids now, which is, by the way, a great kind of smart gets too far. You can go far being street smart. Agreed. Agreed. Okay, let's take a quick break and we will be right back. So why it's like a piece of advice you would give to that twenty five year old self, you know, I think I I probably I know, I feel like I worried a little bit, but but I think it's probably along the lines of like it's all going to work out great, don't worry, you know, But I also wasn't like super worried about it. I mean, I I do sometimes look back and think part of me feels like God, I got so lucky that I, you know, we started this business and this whole thing happened, and I did all the things that I did to get me to this point, which really it's not luck um, but it was like, had I not made the decision, it was a lot of like good decisions. Had I not made the decision to go to beauty school, drive Bar would have never happened, you know. Had I not met married Camp, dry War might not have happened, you know, because dry Bar. So much of the successive dry Bar is like equal parts of like of course my my idea and my like baby and brainchild, but like the branding and the branding is so brilliant, you know, huge part of it. And like my brother's like architect um friend Josh Heitler, who had only at that point done like massive you know, beautiful hotels and multimillion dollar homes like and my brother was like, hey, my little sister has as I get for a hair salon? Would you'd be interested in helping us? And he was, and so so many things coming together, so many things had to like go right, to create that magic, right and now, you know, I look at my life and I'm like, this is pretty awesome. You know. I feel incredibly incredibly lucky and grateful that I you know, that it all went down the way it did. And kind of what I take away from your story and like tell me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you just didn't panic at any point, like you kind of just like let it like, you know, kind of just went down the road that you were meant to go down and be like okay, like now this is new and I'm trying this, and like it just sounds like you didn't really like grab it on into anything too tightly. Yeah, And it's such a good point because I do find myself now I love that that whole that that whole idea of like don't hold you know, like having a tight grip on things, you know, which which of course I still do sometimes in my life and have to remind myself like just just just let it be, like let it happen. And I really try to remember that when like an opportunity or something that I really want isn't happening when I wanted to happen, and I'm like annoyed about it, and then I have to like room myself. You know what, it's all the way it's supposed to be, and you know, and I think I'm a little bit like woo woo in that sense of I'm too. I'm so it resonates with me. I'm such a huge believer in like, you know, blessings in disguise and like you may not get the thing that you think you want, but it's not really the thing that you want, and you just think it's I mean, it's like I love all that ship, you know, and I and I and I believe in it. You know, yeah, me too. I know, I'm such a sucker for that kind of stuff. Like I basically only read self help books and books like that. It's it's it's probably a problem, but I'm like the twenty seven year old version. So I'm like, what's met for me is met for me. And then I'm like panicking on the like it's this like really delicate balance of like I gotta keep pushing and I gotta keep trying and then you know, but I got it. But it's really amazing. I mean, I'm such a like I remember saying to my brother years ago when I, you know, get I get so many emails and so many things, and I'm like, I definitely went through a period which I know you want to touch on the divorce, but like after my divorce when I was like feeling really lost again and I didn't have like wasn't in the day to day operations of Driver by the way I was, and now I wasn't going to this office that I shared with Cam, and so I was really lost and I was really like, Ship, what am I doing with my life now? And I had to like do a bit of a reinvention. It's like what do I what do I want to do now? Like what gets me excited now? And I was really really struggled with that for like probably a good year where I was like what what is next? Like what am I excited about doing next? And it took me a long time to refigure that out again. Yeah, so I wanted to ask you, like, what's something that knocked your confidence in the past five years? What would you say? Would you say you're divorced or would you say something else? Well, yeah, I mean I don't know if it was like confidence as much as it was like Cam and I had really struggled in our marriage for a long time. And I met him when I was like twenties six years old, and I think the person you are when you're twenty six compared to the person you are when you're like thirty or forty is quite different. And you know, I was a kid when I met him, and I and I was again, like I mentioned, it was very like I want to meet the guy and have the babies. And Cam was like perfect, you know he and he is. He's a he's an amazing dad. He's so sweet, he's you know, he's brilliant, like he's he's the package. And I remember thinking that, like this guy is amazing, Why does it not work for us? You know? And and it didn't, and it was a lot. You know, I'm actually writing like like an autobiography about my life right now, and which is like you mentioned in the beginning, You're like you're gonna you know, dredge you back through your twenties, and it is it is like it's funny, like I want to sit and say, like I really enjoyed this process, Like I am not enjoying it. I am not enjoying going back through so many parts of my life. It's like intensive therapy. And and I'm also like I want to be really cognizant of his feelings. What really like knocked me on my ass was like, so we decided to get divorced and separate, and like I said, I was sharing an office with him, and I was like on the tail end of like, you know, I was just like kind of slowly separating myself in a lot of ways from driver. We had hired a lot of really amazing people. I just wasn't in the day to day the way I was at one point. And so when when the divorce went down and we were sharing a creative office, it was like I couldn't go I couldn't go there anymore, right in no way, and and and the office was predominantly like his creative team, so and I didn't really need to be in an office anymore. So I was like, Okay, well, I guess I don't go there anymore. So where do I go during the day, Like nowhere? And so and I was like, you know, I would take meetings and have lunches and do the things that I do, That's what I would normally do. But then I just I just sunk into this really crazy depression. And it was the first time I was able to understand, like, you know, I had friend, we all have like friends who like have depression, and you're like, I came just like tell yourself, it's all gonna be okay, and like get out the door. And and so I was like, oh, they're tell you to take a walk my favorite. Yeah, it's like it's like, holy sh it, there's no there's like you have no control for this. And and I had never experienced that in my life. And then I was like I didn't I couldn't get on bed in the morning. I was crying a lot, you know, had so much anxiety, which also had a lot to do with like my kids and feeling really stressed about them, but almost like not wanting to deal with it. And it was just horrendous. And and also you know, going from being with this guy for sixteen years and you'll appreciate this. A couple of months into like this depression, I had onto this place on site, which is kind of you've heard of with the one in California. It's basically like a treatment center where you go for like seven days. You don't they take your phone. It's like intensive treatment and and there it's so it's so amazing. It's right outside Nashville. It's in this beautiful place. But I had I had done that. I was trying to do everything I could to like get better, to heal myself. And I couldn't understand what was going on with me because I was like I wanted this divorce. I wanted to be on my own. Why am I so sad? What the fund is happening? I couldn't wrap my head around it. And and I met this guy. I was on the talk show when I like finally got myself out of the trenches a little and was like being around people again. Because I also went through a phase where like if I met you on the street and I started talking to you, I would cry even if I had just met you. I mean, it was like, I'm just like a math a mess. And so I met this guy and he had written this book called Energy Speaks, which I feel like I would love, and he said to me, we had this like have been a conversation, and he said to me, you again because I was just like in open books, filling my my guts to anybody with this. And he said to me, you may not be in love with your husband anymore, and you may not want to be married to him anymore, but you can't deny that he held space in your life that nobody holds now, and that is a death. And I was like, but he's not done, because a lot of people have said that to me. And he was like, but he held that space and nobody's holding that space for you now, so you're having to like re figure out how to like manage that this massive hole. And I was like, oh my god, you're right, you know, and and and that's when I think, And that's when it's like, you know, you've heard that, you've heard what we resist persists, you know. And I was like, I have been resisting this for a year, right, like resisting grieving, yes, because I was like people would tell me all the time like this, you know, divorces is a massive loss in you're grieving. I was like, nope, date and I'm gonna do this. And I'm like, you guys don't know what you're talking talking about. And and people did, and now I understand. And I actually I have a couple of girlfriends going through divorce right now, and I'm like, girl, it's gonna be a year. Hang on tight, it's gonna suck. It's just gonna I've heard that before that it like sucks for a year, Like it's it's weird that I don't know why, it's like a year back. Sure enough, after a year, I was like I had actually gotten to because I was during that year period, I was like really trying to meet somebody new, and I was like, oh, I don't really like being alone. I want to be with somebody. So I was you're like broken inside. Yeah, I'm so fucking broken, and you're like everybody on the outside is like what are you doing? And I was like, what do you know? It's fine, everything's fine. Did yeah? And so after it really really was around the year mark that I was like, you know what, I don't need to meet somebody. I'm totally good on my own. I am happy, I am good. I like my life now. And that's when I met a Yes, isn't that just like that's how it goes? It's so crazy. So let's go back to the beginning. Can you walk so you worked with your ex husband extremely closely. Can you walk me through, like do you remember the exact moment where you're like I can't do this anymore, or like it's over, Like did you wrestle with it for months before or was it like a one and done moment. Well, I think I wrestled with it for years and years before, and I just pushed it down, and so did he, you know, I mean there there were many times, many points, and you know I talked so much about this in the book, Like there's so many points where I was like, I'm so unhappy. But I made this commitment and I made and I was very like hung up in the vows and the like commitment that I made that I didn't want. And I also had this like I don't want to be a divorced person. Like I was like I had this stigma in my brain afraid of failure. Yeah, it was a failure. It would be a huge failure. And I was like also, like I that's back when I was like painting this picture of like I started this business and change the world and I had this and I worked with my husband and he was the creator and we were this amazing team. And I was like I didn't want to like I didn't want to like turnish that whole image, you know, because it was perfect. It was great. I loved it. I loved my story, you know, and I was like, there's no way I'm going to mess it up with a divorce, right, No, And and and and then it was like and so we we you know, we we went to therapy a lot, and I used to always when we would get in a fight, I would always say like we should get divorced. You know. I would say that like foopently, like I didn't really mean it, which I you know, I now understand, was like me, like, you know, just that suppression that I was doing. And and so years and years of that on and off, and we would go to therapy and and you know, I still like love Cam deeply and I and we're we're still like, you know, after like two years, we're now we're in a really good place and we're still friends. And we always had this really beautiful friendship. And every time we would get into a fight and we would get close to like thinking we were gonna end things, you know, we always felt like we were glad we didn't, but then was a lot missing, you know, like there was really no intimacy, and I didn't I didn't know any better really, And so to answer your question, I ironically was, this is back to like everything happens for a reason, you know. I was I was about to do a big like I was. I was like judging randomly judging Miss America. I was doing a couple of like big TV appearances. There was a lot going on with the business, and so I knew I was going to be traveling for like a week and a half, and I because I knew I was going to be on TV, I was like, I wanted to like lose some weight and like feel a little better about myself, and so I did. End up I ended up losing about ten pounds. I did this crazy die and I lost a lot of weight, and I was feeling like, for the first time in a long time, because you know, I had two kids and whatever, I was feeling like really sexy and whatever, which was completely lost on CAM because Cam was like we just didn't we didn't really have much of that, and you just didn't even really look at me like that anymore. And so that was kind of like I want walm but I got it, you know. And so I went on a trip and I found myself very like flirty with you know, some other men. I was like, because you were like feeling and it was exactly and I was like, oh man, what am I doing? And I started to feel like this is not I was almost like having like probably what you would consider an emotional fair and I was like, ship, man, I can't do this. Like I was like, I was not going to do that, you know, I was never I was like, not going to cheat. I didn't want to cross the line, even though I'd already had cross line. And so I was on this trip and all this was happening, and I was like, you know, and I was like, everything is on my Instagram and even you know, Cam said to me like, what are you doing? Like you're really flirty with this guy and it's interesting. So he like kind of knew yeah, and it was like the unraveling was starting. And I got home from that trip, and you know, I remember like that night getting home, Cam being like, you know, you were really flirty, and I could tell him, like people were texting me like what DELI doing? And I was like yeah, And we we took a walk that night and we were talking about it all and I was like, no, he was just a friend and the one like still trying to suppress. Yes, he said to me, maybe in the context of this whole big conversation we're having, he said like, maybe this isn't forever. Oh God. And I was like it was like a moment where I felt like he had given me permission and like you know, and he didn't, but that was what I heard. And I was like, he knows, he knows, this isn't this is' and I was like, an, I know, And suddenly it's not living inside your head anymore. Suddenly it's exactly that's terrifying. Yeah, it was, but like liberating, maybe else, but so free. And so the next day I spent the whole day with my best friend Page and I said, at her house and debating and deliberating it and talking to these other guys. I was like, what am I fucking doing? And I remember leaving my house that morning and like kissing him good by, and I knew that was going to be the last time I kissed him. I knew it, and and it was. And so I got in my car and the chills all over, like that is like a because that's a crazy ass feeling, like just knowing that I knew it, and I remember it like it was yesterday. And I remember because he was working, we had like a little like home gym at like in a guesthouse, and I remember like him walking out of the gym saying goodbye to me, and in my mind, my mind was fucking reeling and I was like, but he didn't really know it, and so I remember, like I remember he was like sweaty, and I kissed him and I was like, I knew it. I knew it. So I spent that day with my best friend Paige and I talked in like all day. I spent at her house, just like talking to her, and I I called our therapist and I said, hey, can we have like an emergency session? I need to come in tonight. So I went. We went into our therapy and I told Cam was like, can can you meet me at Melissa's. We're going to go have therapy. And I think he thought we were going to like try to work things out. And the first thing I said to him was like, I don't think I can do this anymore, Like once it's over, it's you know in your head, it's what you know. And he was initially very like I'm really proud of you. Actually, that was the first thing he said, I'm really I'm really proud of you because he knew how hard it was for me to to do it, to make the decision, you know, And I think there's still and now, like you know, two years later, it wasn't easy. A lot it was a lot of like heartbreak on both our sides. It was very sad, and it was you know, there's just so much there. But I think that he didn't want us to break up before our kids left, like the house, and I felt like I don't want to be raising my children in a in a like like not loveless marriage, but like you know, And it's funny because like my dad happens to be in town right now, and he was telling and he was spent some time with my sixteen year old son yesterday and he my dad told me that Grant said, I've never seen my mom happier, you know, and for for my kids, like that kind of love, I think that's better than just staying together for the kids. Like I've never subscribed to that. And I think that like now my kids, like they see the way me and Adrian are with each other, and I'm so glad that they witnessed that, like because it is like I'm so madly, deeply passionately in love with him that that's what my kids see and they and I want them to like that's the model I totally you know. Yeah, Like my parents got divorced when I was sixteen and my oldest brother was twenty or no, twenty two. So I'm like one of four, so there were a lot of so they theoretically wait until like everyone was out of the house. I just in the last child, so I was still in the house. But god, like they could have gotten divorced like five years before that at least, you know. And it's just like you can sent so much as a child too, Like I knew that they were staying together for us, but I was like, why are we doing this? Like it just kind of felt like this like facade. Yeah, like a total facade. It felt like you're miserable together. Like it's awkward for me to watch you guys together. So I don't think there's any good age to do it with your like to get divorced from your kids, you know what I mean, It's gonna suck from like no matter how you slice it, but I agree with you. It's kind of like your kids get resentful that you stayed together for them, you know, and like that you didn't choose yourself. It's such a better lesson to show that, like we can have too happy homes, you know. Yeah, and it's so it's so beautiful now. I mean again, there was to like, well, there was like a year and a half where it was like pretty pretty rough, and now we're in such a good place. And now it is just like, you know, what what Adrian give gives to my boys is very different than what their dad does. And they're both amazing, you know. But it's like, you know, my my mom always said, you know, I remember when my kids were little and I was worried about them like being with the nanny or being with people, and they're like, listen to more people that love your kids, the better, you know. And it's like Adrian loves them and he and he's like he offers something that Cam doesn't and vice versa, and so yeah, they're so lucky. And I think that that's you know, that's that's the most important thing. So you know, it was a rough, rough, rough road, but you know, I'm glad that we all went through it and ended up where we are now. So you talked about like feeling really depressed, Like was it shortly after or like a while after it was like a year. Well, it was like when we first got divorced, I was like I felt like I had been sprung and I was like, whoa, I'm gonna like go and I was like, oh my god. I was like a maniac. And I was like, you know, I was like dating, going out with guys and my friends, and I was like, this is so awesome and I'm so free and I'm never gonna get married again and I want to be like and and that lasted for you know maybe, and then I was like, oh, ship this is And then it was like the reality of like being alone and then like you know, being with my kids alone, and you know, the things that inevitably come up with kids, and you know, at that time then I weren't on like a munch of a speaking basis, and so it was kind of like, well, you're on your own. And now we now we co parent really well together, but at that time, you know, we just weren't communicating much. I was really on my own and then it was just like stupid little ship, like I had, you know, a husband for all these years, so I was like shot around the house and just all of that, and I just felt in a in a way I loved the independence of it, and it was fun to have, like I bought my own place and I had my own house and I could do whatever I wanted with and that there were things that were really great. But then it was like I was really lonely and sad and I missed having a partner and I missed having someone to share in my life with. And you didn't regret the divorce, like you just were like I need a new partner, Like I don't need to go back yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it wouldn't. It didn't ever like occur to me like, oh I should try to get back together with Kim. I mean maybe at some peripheral level where I felt like I didn't like being alone, and I never felt like I was never going to go there again. I was, and I was, and I was really I didn't want to confuse things ever, so I was never like oh let me like, let me talk about it, Like I was never like that, you know, I was just like you just got to take this and you just have to like deal with it. And my parents also got divorced, but not until we were much older. I think I was like right after I got married, my parents got divorced, and they you know, they were in there like late fifties, and you know, they never fell in love again. And I think I was scared. That was also a little bit of like the catalyst for me leaving my marriage when I did, because I was like, what if, like I'm too old to meet anybody, which I don't think it's true, you know, I think you can meet somebody at in the age, but it is daunting when you're like, you know, I was like, I think I was fourty three forty four when we got divorced, and I was like, I'm not like a spring chicken. I have two children, you know. And and then I also realized like, oh, I created this business and I have you know, a life that like not everybody is comfortable with, and so and then it was like, oh ship, and then I was like applicated and never yeah, I was pretty uplicated, and so it was all very daunting, and I just, you know, I a really hard time managing through all of that and just just became very depressed and couldn't get myself out of it. Had you ever been depressed before, Like it's never come up in your life? So was it like the kind of depression like in bed all day or like just like a fog? What was it? Like? What did it? Yeah, it was like it was It was definitely a fog, and it was just like I was just I just felt like that like pit of my stomach sadness that I of course, like you know, sometimes you get sad when something happens and then you kind of bounce back, you know, but it was just like it wouldn't go away, and I did have a hard time getting out of bed. I cried a lot, you know. I was just like, you know, I really like anybody, any of my friends you would like listen to me, I would just cry to that. I had a lot of like anxiety. I remember, like, you know, it's so weird. I remember like I had a lot of anxiety and my legs, you know how anxiety shows up in weird places, And I just yeah, it was and it was really that part was really hard. I think on my chill Drinn it was like them seeing me so sad all the time. They were like, the fuck's around my mom? So what did it take for that to get better? Like was it therapy and medication or what? You know? I actually tried going on like an antidepressant point and it gave me so much more anxiety than I've ever had. And I was like, oh, funk this, I'm not doing this. It's so hard to find the right like anti depres It's impossible. Yeah, And then you know, I was just doing all the things. I started doing transcendental meditation. Someone told me about that. David found it. Did you go? Yes? I did it there and that was amazing. And I we had had an infrared sauna in our house and I took it when we moved, and you got that in the divorce. That's really really I was doing like you know that all the time. I was walking all the time. At the time, I lived in Laurel Kenyon, so I was in the hills and I was walking, and you know, I was doing therapy like twice a week. I mean, I was just doing all the things. And I think it was time more than anything. It was like eventually like just started to heal and it was just a slow process. There was no magic bullet, although I wanted a magic bullet. I remember going to on site and being like, Okay, I need to get you know, fix me, and they're like it doesn't work. They're like you have to just go and and actually, like I was so lucky, and I mean to talk about You're like this was so crazy. I I ended up like instagramming with Brine Brown and she would text me like, the only way through is through, and you just have to go fucking through it. Talk about the friend you want to make in going. It was like divine intervention. The fact that we became friends. So like, what did your first marriage kind of teach you about what you wanted to find in your next marriage? Like what were some of the red flags that you might have ignored or the feelings that you wanted or you know, the relationship factors that you wanted that you didn't have before. Well, what's what's so interesting now? You know? It's like again talk about feeling lucky. I mean, you know, Adrian is so he's like the most evolved, like probably human I've ever met, and he's really been through it and it's great and we talk about everything like nothing goes swept under the rug, like it just doesn't happen with us, and that is that is probably the biggest difference, because you know, Adrian will say things to me like, you know, he's like, Babe, I'm sure at some point in our well, now you know we're gonna we're getting married. Each year he'll be like, he'll be like, I'm sure you're going to be like attracted to somebody else. And that's okay. You know. It's like I'm like what, and he's like, of course, you're going to be at some point attracted to somebody else. He's like, but we should talk about it, you know. And I'm like you should talk about it, and he's like yeah, because if if something comes up where there's like you know, you're working with somebody or somebody like you know, pique your interest, like tell me so we can talk about it, so we can like you know, because he's like, if if that's happening, something's missing in our relationship that is causing you to like need that feeling or desire whatever it is from for somebody else. And I'm like, oh ship, I'm like I don't really want to tell you what that happens. And he's like, no, but you have to if you want our marriage to work, you know, And he's like, and he's right, and like that kind of like he lives in a radical yeah truth of like, let's just like fucking deal with what's here instead of like trying to pretend it's not, which is really like how I imagine most marriages why they unraveled, because you start having these like relationships and these feelings and things that you're not talking about, you know. I mean, And it's so interesting now because I didn't, like, I did like look around a lot when I was married, and I did, like I did find myself attracted to other men a lot, but of course would never right Number one, Yeah, you don't tell it. But now I'm like, oh, I would tell him, and and and you know that hasn't happen. And yet I mean, I I'm so I'm just so completely and utterly in love with him that it's like I don't even I can't imagine it happening. But it's nice to know that if it does happen and I can talk to him about it, then we can like figure out how to get back on track. Totally, and like that's just so fucking freeing totally. There were like two humans entering this relationship and we're going to have like other feelings and that those room for that can be liberating. Exactly. So with your last marriage, the intimacy did that Was it always that way or did it change? Like did it change when you started working together or like having kids or like was it always kind of of course, like the first stage is always you're hot and heavy, but but beyond that, yeah, I mean we had that first hot and heavy stage for about six months, and after that it really took a nose eide. But but the other stuff was so good. Yeah, the other stuff was so good. We had this beautiful friendship and all of that that. I was like, no, no, it's good. I don't know any better, you know, And and I think and Can definitely had a little bit of cold feet, and Cam definitely felt a little worried about this, but I was like, no, no, no no, that's fine, it's fine. And I was wrong, you know, And and and obviously in some ways it was like we probably shouldn't have got married, however, and can't I don't look at it like that now because like, look at all the amazing you know, our two like amazing boys and the business and all the things that came out of this that I, you know, wouldn't wouldn't do it any differently, but in retrospect, you know, it really wasn't. It was like, after like six months, it really like that that whole intimacy part of it had really kind of gone away. And then you just like let that part of you die, you know, you're just and it. What's crazy is like I was like such a like non affectionate person because that wasn't there for us. And I just was like, this is how I am, right, I don't not that interested in any of that stuff. And it was like it did die in me. And it wasn't until like that this story I told you about, like you know, went that week full weeks that I was like, oh my god, it's not dead. He's still there. Yeah, it's just been burying. My sex drive is alive. And well it's just like deep yes, and I was like, oh, yes, you know, it was a major life I feel like that is so relatable. Like I feel like a lot of people, whether they're in a marriage or just like in a relationship can really relate to that. And now I realized that, but I was just blind to it. All. Yeah, it's your first marriage, you know, it's like what do you know? Like as far as you know, no one has sex. You know, Like when you hear that, it's like you talked to enough of your girlfriends You're like they're like, yeah, I'm not that interested in second, you know, and it's like now I'm like, oh like this one, yeah exactly. So how long did it take you to get to that amicable place that you're in right now? Like what did it take? Therapy? Like was it is it for the take of your kids? Or like what got you there? Yeah? Talking about a blessing in disguise. I mean my older son, Grant, who sixteen, right around the time that the divorce went down, and I do think that of ours had something to do with it. But also, you know, Grant started really struggling, and he was like at that age when he was like starting he was like fourteen and was fifteen, he was starting to discover like pot and he lives in l a And it was like you know, yeah, hello, and so he was starting to experiment and I think he was like having a lot of feelings about a lot of things that he wasn't talking about, and he was just like dealing with it by smoking pot. And so he started getting more and more going down this pretty bad path. And it didn't really come to the light until me and Cam had had broken up, and so we found ourselves having to like, oh, ship our kids in trouble, and like, we've got to come together on this, even if we don't want to talk. He was angry for a while, I didn't really want to talk to me, and so it was like, this is our kid in using trouble, and we have to deal with this. So Grant he spent the last year in like treatment, and he was like he really had a really tough year dealing with like his own anxiety and stuff that we didn't even know who's there. Yeah, and so he's doing great now. He's home now. But that year of him being away forced me and him to have to be on phone with therapists on the phone with him all the time, and so it helped bridge the gap. Yes, like all the minutia like who the funk cares? You're just like exactly, and we came we had to come together for Grant, and so we did and and through that we had to do with therapy on our own, and we had to do therapy with Grant, and so we had to like and so I think it was like that really helped like kind of speed the process of of us like being like, let's just like this, it's better for the kids. And I remember Cam saying to me once like let's be let's be an example of like the best divorced parents we can be for our kids. You know, Like it's really it's really mind blowing to me when I hear stories and I do and I'm sure you do too, of like people who were like just such assholes toxes, and it's like when there's kids involved, it's like, what the fund is wrong with you? Put you put your kids in front of you. Yes, I see it a lot where parents are just being really selfish and you know, they're they're putting their kids in the middle, and like, I just it just makes me crazy, and like I you know, I mean we do it for you know, we are amicable for first and foremost for the kids, you know, and then secondarily like for for us in our own sanity. But but the kids first. You know, it's like people who put their kids in the middle of a divorce, like, I just can't. That drives me crazy. And I've seen it kills I mean, it just kills the soul of like your kids, you know, like even like the custody battles and all of that nonsense, Like it's already hard enough, Like you know, there's all this change and everything. A lot of people I know who have gotten divorces, like they're talking shit about that. You know, they're not supporting for us. It's like it took us a little while to get here, and we're not saints. But now it's like there's everything is the same at both of our houses in terms of what they can do and what they can't do and all of that. And we're communicating all the time, so there's no playing each other. So your kids can't get away with murder. Yeah, And like my Graham was just telling me about a friend of his who they're really like the mom complains to the kid about the dad. It's like, dude, what are you? Totally totally So it's my kids tell me a lot of different things that they hear from their their their friends to them and I'm like, so sad. You just shouldn't know that. How can you put your kid in that position? You should never never, I never say anything bad about Cam. You know, we definitely like things got rough, but it's it's like, I never we never brought the kids into that. Yeah, it's so weird because my parents have been divorced for over ten years now, So I would you think it wouldn't bother me, Like if my mom would say a snider remark here and there about my dad or like, you know, just like natural, like my parents really don't talk about each other, which is I'm very lucky in that way. You can't, Like it still upsets me, Like I'm still like, oh no, no, no, like you can't talk about like my dad or like my mom or whomever. You know. It's just like you get protective over that aren't. And it's it's a hard position to put your kids in if like you're constantly just because it's also like half of them. So it's a weird psychological funk because you're like, wait, do you hate half of me? You know, Like it's weird. It's like a kid doesn't know how to process that and they end up feeling like to your point, they have to protect one parent or the other and that is just you know, and and you know and listen, like like I said, you know, I definitely made some mistakes, and I think even my kids seeing me as sad as I was was really hard on them. And I wish I hadn't done that. I wish I hadn't let them see that. I mean, of course to the extent, but I wish they hadn't had to experience that. You know, but you know, it was you learn you're surviving. Yeah, what's something about single motherhood Like how long were you single before you met Adrian? Like, what's something about single motherhood that surprised you? Um, how hard it is? Yes, you know, I mean it's it's it's really like when you've had a partner who, like you're bouncing ideas off of and just somebody being a sounding board, even just someone like hey, my kids doing this, like what do you think? Or like you know, so I would say, it's just making every decision on your own. And you know, and I think it's like it's different when your kids are are younger, because then you know, when kids are younger, it's more like the like physicalness of it, and that they always need you there. My kids are you know, we're much more we're much older and more independent where we got divorced. But it's making those decisions alone and not having that person that like that one person that loves them and knows them as much as you do. You can ask your friends or your parents for help and whatever, but they don't know them like they do, and they don't have that interest like you do. And you know, even though, like I talked to Adrian about lots of things with my kids, I still, you know, there's still a lot of things that like just Cam and I talked about with our kids because he knows Kid and Grant better than anybody, just like I do, and nobody will ever know them the way he does or I do. And so having that now I have that again with Cam and it's great. You know. It's it's when you lose that person, which is again imagine a death, you know, it's like you just don't have that option anymore. And that's how it was initially with us, and now you know, but now we were co parent really beautifully together. So it's great. Yeah, I love it, Like it sounds like you have a great little like modern family. You know. It's like it's so nice. And do Adrian and Cam get along great? I mean they're not like hanging out. You don't need them to be like bros, you know, but there they are there they like each other. That's amazing. How have you changed the most, like from the beginning of your divorce, like from the moment like okay, we're going to get divorced to like now, how have you changed? Not always, but for the most part, I'm just I feel like I'm softer, more generous, more likely to be like okay, no problem versus like, you know, fighting, being a martyr for so many things. So I think that I like myself better now than I probably ever have before. That's wonderful. You should be the post or child of divorce. This is just like should I get divorced? I'm not even married. You know. It's so funny, is I I feel? You know, Adrian? Adrian and I actually met through a matchmaking company. Yeah, and I'm actually I think because I mean, I fucking totally become the poster child for that. And I literally was out the other night and I ran into some girl girlfriends and seen since I got divorced, and they and they were like, how are you what's going on. I was like, oh, everything's great, and this is Adrian, my fiance, and they're like, what like the last time I saw you, you were just getting divorced, and I was no, I met him through this you know, this company and three day rule and they're like, oh my god, sign me up. I mean, I am like a recruiter for this company now. It's so funny. It's called the three date rule, the three day three day. Ironically, the first time Adrian texted me, I was on a date with another guy not through the match right, and I didn't like. I texted him back like the next day, and then like he called me and we had a short conversation, and then like that later that night he called me at like ten o'clock on Saturday night or Sunday night, and we talked until like five in the morning, like we just could not get off the phone. And I was leaving for a strip the next day. So then he picked me up. Our first date was in picking me up at the airport on like a Wednesday, and I'm signing everyone up for this. I'm like, why are you talking about. I'm like, literally gonna tell all my friends about this service. It's great, I know. I mean I thought it was like there was like a weird stigma and I didn't really want to tell at first, but then I was like, why not. It's like get set up with someone. It's like, no different than your best friends up with this really great guy that she met. It's like, yes, we'd be we'd like the guys that aren't right for me out. You know. Oh my god, I'm like delegate, like have someone else like help you out. You know. That's incredible, that so much. Okay, this is the perfect place for us to take a quick break, so we will be right back. Okay, so we're gonna wrap this up and we have our three final questions. What's a topic or concept you wish more women, either like just in general or like in your industry we're more open about, Like what do you watch people to stop lying about? It might just be me and where I'm at, you know, I I like this kind of conversation, you know, I like talking about the under surface of what's happening and how we feel, you know. I mean, and I'm guilty of it too. I mean, you know, I I I tend to just keep you know, for a large part of my career, I talked about just business stuff, and I wouldn't talk about like the bad business stuff. And when you know, you talk about you want because you want people to you want to like present this picture and whatever, you know, And I think that that's happening though. I think more women are talking about like the hardships of what they're going through of like being an entrepreneur or you know, divorce and all of that. But that's the kind of stuff that I really, I really want people to be really genuine and authentic with what's happening with them versus showing us just the glossy side. I'm with you. That's why I started this podcast, unterreference. That sounds like it's like a no small talk, like let's get to like, you know, we can relate so much more, you know what I mean, learn from each other, Like I can't learn from your perfect path, you know, like what's going to do? You know? This is only going to make me feel badly about my own path, you know exactly, because it's like nobody's nobody's got it all fed, no one has all the answers. We're all struggling, Yes, exactly. So what's something that you're currently working on as far as yourself these days? We talked about therapy, we talked about self help books, like what are you trying to work on right now? Being open to feedback a lot from my kids and from from Adrian, from people I work with, you know, to be like I think it's like a muscle that you have to constantly work definitely to keep it strong. Yes, I have to like remember o ship, don't don't avoid stuff I want to be, Like, don't be defensive when your kids tell you what they really think. Like, asked a lot of questions. Like one of one of the great things I learned from Adrian he's he coaches like founders and he's amazing. That's what he does for a living, which obviously works really well for us. It was a lot of it had to do with Graham what he was going through. Just ask him a lot of questions, Like I get curious, and I think that's like the biggest thing is like staying curious, you know. I I like Brian. Most people can get into this like I know it. I thought it, except you know, and then it's like oh wait, no, no, no, you don't know it. Asked questions. Ask more questions, like ask your son's questions. And that is a big thing that I find myself constantly trying to remember me so I'm that person instead of like I know at all, you know, h it's like a control thing, like if you ask the question, like you have no control over the answer and it might not be something you like. So it's just better to like assume. And if you think you're smart or you think you're intuitive, you're like, no, no, no, I actually know all the answers like you don't, but I actually and it's easy to get like take a hold of us so easily. But I think it's also like control is probably another thing that I struggle with. It's like I want to control all the things all the time, and I struggle with that lot. So I'm yeah, yes, So what's something that people that follow you on Instagram would be surprised to know? I think, you know, one of the things that maybe interesting. I just started this new jewelry company back in well and it was basically like out of I met this girl and she was designing her own jewelry, and I felt like I could really help like propel her to the next level with you know, the right branding, like cam Right is doing, did all the rebrand you know. Yeah, he's still like on new projects. Yeah. Yeah, it's all and lots of projects. Yeah. But I've tried to be really transparent with the fact that like, oh, ship, this isn't super easy and like the business is doing okay, it's like not doing it. It's not like going it's not like Gangbusters. And I'm trying. I wanted to be and I wanted to be like really like crazy busy, but it's not. Yeah, And I'm like, I'm trying to be really transparent, which is why I'm talking about now you know. It's like no, I'm just because like I've had this success and I do feel if I do feel a little bit of pressure to be like, oh I should anything you do should be but I'm I'm not u like that business is not there yet, but I am really enjoying the process of learning how to make it great, which I don't get no, And so I'm trying to be pretty transparent with that whole experience that I'm going to I love that because it would be so easy for people to, like, if you just told everyone it's the most successful business in the world, we'd all believe you, you know, because like you created that before. So I think that's cool because it's like you are starting over and it's probably not like starting over, but it's like in this sense. Yeah, and so it's it's exciting and hard, you know. Yes, Okay, so we are finished. What's your Instagram handle? What do you have? You probably have a lot of stuff coming up. What's your podcast called like Tell the People All the Things? All the Things? So my Instagram is just Ali web A L L I W E b B. That's kind of like my hub for all the things. So you can you can you can get over to Beckett and Quill, which is just a Beckett and Quill when t and we also have another brand that we launched about a year before COVID called Squeeze, which is a massage concept. You have no idea how excited I am about this? Yes, well, it's in it's we we just reopened again. It's in Sherman Oaks, right, it's in studio. Yes, yeah, So that and that business was like on fire before covid, I mean all five star evading. It's it's a massage concept, same founding team as Dry Bar. It's all you book, your book, you pay, you tip everything on this app. It's a very customizable massage. It's amazing. I'm going to be yours your best customer, like after this, truly you have to go. So that's you know that's happening again. You can get to all of and then of course Dry Bar and you can get to all of that on my Instagram. I have my podcast and I do with Adrian called Raising the Bar. We are with Dear Media, so that's you know where you can find us as well. Um, and then you know things that are coming up is like my book and you know I'm working on this book that I'm so excited. Yes that has been that, I'm not it only like done in chapter outlines to at least you've done that. At least you've gone that far, you know. I'm also so affiliated with the company called pep Talk, which does these like twenty minute where you can like pay to talk to different business like advisors and people that have been through it versus like cameo where it's like celebrity Joe. This is more like, hey, I have a business and I have like I'd love to pick your brain or love to have you talk about something that you went through. That's a new kind of emerging brand talk. Super fun. You have your hands in very exciting pots and planning a wedding. Yes yes, yes, yes exactly, bridal showers, the whole thing. How exciting. Well, thank you so so much. I loved talking to you, like, I learned so much from you. So thank you for being thank you. Yeah, this is awesome. I love I love a real, candid conversation like this. So thank you. Yes, Okay, good, I'm glad you liked it. Okay, good. Some people just don't want to go there. I don't know. Maybe I do say too much. Oh my god, No, you are a dream podcast guest. Like I love this. Thank you, thank you. So. I said it once and I'll say it again. She really should be the poster child of divorce. I love how real Ali is and despite her gigantic success, she's always looking out for other women and making sure that we aren't fooled by Instagram or the facade of perfection. We need more women like her in our world. We really do. Okay, that's it for me for two weeks, but I'm already counting down the seconds until we're reunited on May fourth. If you happen to visit the show page while we're gone, I would be so grateful if you'd rate and subscribe to the podcast so we can keep growing. I'll see you back here in no time. I miss you, and as always, thank you, thank you, thank you for listening.