Welcome to Tech Stuff. This is the story. Each week on Wednesdays, we bring you an in depth interview with someone who has a front row seat to the most fascinating things happening in tech today. We're joined by Bradley Hope. Hope is an investigative journalist and author. He's the co founder of Project Brazen, a narrative nonfiction production studio based in London and Singapore, and before starting his own journalism company, Hope covered the Arab spring from Cairo, Beirut, and Abu Dhabi and led investigations as a financial reporter at The Wall Street Journal. He also co wrote the book Billion Dollar Whale, about the Malaysian businessman Jolo. We asked Bradley to join us from his studio in London to discuss his recent piece in Wired Irresistibly, titled a Spymaster Shake controls a one point five trillion dollar fortune. He wants to use it to dominate Ai. So who is the spy master?

Welcome to Tech Stuff. This is the story. Each week on Wednesdays, we bring you an in depth interview with someone who has a front row seat to the most fascinating things happening in tech today. We're joined by Bradley Hope. Hope is an investigative journalist and author. He's the co founder of Project Brazen, a narrative nonfiction production studio based in London and Singapore, and before starting his own journalism company, Hope covered the Arab spring from Cairo, Beirut, and Abu Dhabi and led investigations as a financial reporter at The Wall Street Journal. He also co wrote the book Billion Dollar Whale, about the Malaysian businessman Jolo. We asked Bradley to join us from his studio in London to discuss his recent piece in Wired Irresistibly, titled a Spymaster Shake controls a one point five trillion dollar fortune. He wants to use it to dominate Ai. So who is the spy master?

Shaikh So? The spine master is Abu Dhabi. Royal Shaik Taknun Benzayed al Nahyan.

Shaikh So? The spine master is Abu Dhabi. Royal Shaik Taknun Benzayed al Nahyan.

Shak Tarnun is one of the twenty odd sons of the United Arab Emirates first president. But back when Hope started paying attention to this shadowy figure, he didn't play a major role in government.

Shak Tarnun is one of the twenty odd sons of the United Arab Emirates first president. But back when Hope started paying attention to this shadowy figure, he didn't play a major role in government.

He was kind of this minor real estate tycoon with Harbyish businesses.

He was kind of this minor real estate tycoon with Harbyish businesses.

When Hope moved to Abu Dhabi soon after the two thousand and eight financial crisis, one of the things he covered for a newspaper was real estate. The country was in the midst of a building boom, and the craze spread to the island surrounding Abu Dhabi, including a place called Riem Island. Hope soon discovered that Reem Island was actually Shake Taknun's personal project.

When Hope moved to Abu Dhabi soon after the two thousand and eight financial crisis, one of the things he covered for a newspaper was real estate. The country was in the midst of a building boom, and the craze spread to the island surrounding Abu Dhabi, including a place called Riem Island. Hope soon discovered that Reem Island was actually Shake Taknun's personal project.

He wanted it to be kind of a little mini manhattan next to Abadabi. It was like a building site, you know. It was just tons of different projects rising up, and even today it looks sort of half built. And so I was always very interested in him because he had this kind of diletantish thing about him that was kind of irresistible. And over the years I watched as he just rose higher and higher in the power structure of Abu Dhabi.

He wanted it to be kind of a little mini manhattan next to Abadabi. It was like a building site, you know. It was just tons of different projects rising up, and even today it looks sort of half built. And so I was always very interested in him because he had this kind of diletantish thing about him that was kind of irresistible. And over the years I watched as he just rose higher and higher in the power structure of Abu Dhabi.

Today, Sheikh Tagnun is the United Arab Emirates National Security Advisor, the intelligence chief to one of the world's wealthiest and most surveillance oriented small nations. Taknun is also the younger brother of the Yue's President, Mohammad bin Zayed al Nayan. Outside his duties as the national security Advisor, Taknun has official control over much of Abu Dhabi's vast sovereign wealth. According to Bloomberg News, he directly oversees a one point five trillion dollar empire. To put that in perspective, that's more cash than just about anybody on the planet. And as you might expect of a spymaster, Sheikh Taknun is a mysterious figure, but over the years, Bradley Hope has been able to make enough connections in the UAE to learn more about this extremely influential politician and diplomat, a man who seems to be transforming the small but wealthy country into a major AI power. You described him as one third Gulf royal, one third fitness obsessed tech founder, and one third bond villain. Can you talk a little bit about those three legs of the stool of Tachmoon.

Today, Sheikh Tagnun is the United Arab Emirates National Security Advisor, the intelligence chief to one of the world's wealthiest and most surveillance oriented small nations. Taknun is also the younger brother of the Yue's President, Mohammad bin Zayed al Nayan. Outside his duties as the national security Advisor, Taknun has official control over much of Abu Dhabi's vast sovereign wealth. According to Bloomberg News, he directly oversees a one point five trillion dollar empire. To put that in perspective, that's more cash than just about anybody on the planet. And as you might expect of a spymaster, Sheikh Taknun is a mysterious figure, but over the years, Bradley Hope has been able to make enough connections in the UAE to learn more about this extremely influential politician and diplomat, a man who seems to be transforming the small but wealthy country into a major AI power. You described him as one third Gulf royal, one third fitness obsessed tech founder, and one third bond villain. Can you talk a little bit about those three legs of the stool of Tachmoon.

Well, I mean, so the bond villain part, you could call it slightly unfair of me, but I find him to be kind of giving off that vibe. He always wears sunglasses indoors or outdoors, and it's because of a light sensitivity, according to people I spoke to, but it still gives him a James Bond villain a kind of feeling. He commands this obscured network of companies that are all involved in different types of espionage, and he has his fingers in so many places. Like on one hand, he's got all these AI companies. He's really mixed up in China. He is a big investor in Israel. Under the normalization of UAE Israel, he's kind of still the spymaster stuff. He's always been obsessed with mixed martial arts and jiu jitsu and has really become like this major patron of the sport in the whole world. He flies over the best sportsman in that sport and they come and train with him and spend time with them. And I spoke to a few of those guys and they said, you know, he's just a kind of a fitness freak. He eats one meal a day, he's exercising for two hours per day. You know, he really believes in longevity, and you know, I'm guessing that he probably takes like a hundred supplements a day, you know, that kind of stuff. He's a very interesting character. And then once you start studying the Gulf royals, you really get to see what happens when interesting characters are given access to resources, they just become very interesting.

Well, I mean, so the bond villain part, you could call it slightly unfair of me, but I find him to be kind of giving off that vibe. He always wears sunglasses indoors or outdoors, and it's because of a light sensitivity, according to people I spoke to, but it still gives him a James Bond villain a kind of feeling. He commands this obscured network of companies that are all involved in different types of espionage, and he has his fingers in so many places. Like on one hand, he's got all these AI companies. He's really mixed up in China. He is a big investor in Israel. Under the normalization of UAE Israel, he's kind of still the spymaster stuff. He's always been obsessed with mixed martial arts and jiu jitsu and has really become like this major patron of the sport in the whole world. He flies over the best sportsman in that sport and they come and train with him and spend time with them. And I spoke to a few of those guys and they said, you know, he's just a kind of a fitness freak. He eats one meal a day, he's exercising for two hours per day. You know, he really believes in longevity, and you know, I'm guessing that he probably takes like a hundred supplements a day, you know, that kind of stuff. He's a very interesting character. And then once you start studying the Gulf royals, you really get to see what happens when interesting characters are given access to resources, they just become very interesting.

There's a great quote in your piece which is nearly every story about royalty in the Gulf is a story about succession, about paternalistic families trying to ward off external threats and internal rivalries that crop up when inherited power is up grabs. How is that relevant to understanding tachmoon Well, I think that this has been something I spent a lot of my journalistic career on, which is being fascinated by these modern monarchies.

There's a great quote in your piece which is nearly every story about royalty in the Gulf is a story about succession, about paternalistic families trying to ward off external threats and internal rivalries that crop up when inherited power is up grabs. How is that relevant to understanding tachmoon Well, I think that this has been something I spent a lot of my journalistic career on, which is being fascinated by these modern monarchies.

There's no real monarchy in the world except for the Gulf. You know. These are true old fashioned monarchies where all power is derived from these families, and they can make huge decisions, and they can direct the entire country's wealth towards achieving those goals. There's no technical mandate, like they can't be voted out. But on the other hand, there's a lot of brittleness that is created by generational transfer of power, so by the time it gets to the third generation, it's almost always getting very fraught. Behind every decision, there's also a bit of maneuvering and trying to establish what's my power going to be and if my brother were to pass away, where do I stand, and all that sort of.

There's no real monarchy in the world except for the Gulf. You know. These are true old fashioned monarchies where all power is derived from these families, and they can make huge decisions, and they can direct the entire country's wealth towards achieving those goals. There's no technical mandate, like they can't be voted out. But on the other hand, there's a lot of brittleness that is created by generational transfer of power, so by the time it gets to the third generation, it's almost always getting very fraught. Behind every decision, there's also a bit of maneuvering and trying to establish what's my power going to be and if my brother were to pass away, where do I stand, and all that sort of.

Thing, and it's my understanding. This is almost exactly what happened to Takmoon in twenty twenty two. His brother Mohammed Benzaied became the president of the UAE, and shortly after that, Muhammad named his own son as successor, and so am I writing thinking there was kind of a need to appease Taknun, who may have seen this decision as a snub.

Thing, and it's my understanding. This is almost exactly what happened to Takmoon in twenty twenty two. His brother Mohammed Benzaied became the president of the UAE, and shortly after that, Muhammad named his own son as successor, and so am I writing thinking there was kind of a need to appease Taknun, who may have seen this decision as a snub.

Well, I'd say Tartannun became very ambitious over time, and in the case that this younger son of Mahma Benzaid became the crown prince, there needed to be some sort of a trade with Toatnun to make him happy about that arrangement, And essentially the deal was that he would get much greater control over the investments of the country.

Well, I'd say Tartannun became very ambitious over time, and in the case that this younger son of Mahma Benzaid became the crown prince, there needed to be some sort of a trade with Toatnun to make him happy about that arrangement, And essentially the deal was that he would get much greater control over the investments of the country.

There's a detail in the story that I love about how Taknun's sort of interest in technology began as a personal fixation on the collaboration between man and machine. Can you speak a little bit about that.

There's a detail in the story that I love about how Taknun's sort of interest in technology began as a personal fixation on the collaboration between man and machine. Can you speak a little bit about that.

So back in the early two thousands when Shake Tatnun started building this conglomerate called the Royal Group. Essentially, it's a series of holding groups, which hold holding groups, which hold companies, which hold further companies. One of the things he got obsessed with was chess as a game that he liked to play personally, and he became very interested in how to invest in chess computers. This was the era of Garry Kasparov playing against the Deep Blue, and so he found an interesting I believe, Austrian computer scientists, and it basically bankrolled that guy to develop a chess computer called Hydra. And the Hydra was especially well known during that period for this kind of man plus machine style of playing chess. And so you would be able to you as a human were there using it kind of like how we use AI today. You use it as a tool to play against a player.

So back in the early two thousands when Shake Tatnun started building this conglomerate called the Royal Group. Essentially, it's a series of holding groups, which hold holding groups, which hold companies, which hold further companies. One of the things he got obsessed with was chess as a game that he liked to play personally, and he became very interested in how to invest in chess computers. This was the era of Garry Kasparov playing against the Deep Blue, and so he found an interesting I believe, Austrian computer scientists, and it basically bankrolled that guy to develop a chess computer called Hydra. And the Hydra was especially well known during that period for this kind of man plus machine style of playing chess. And so you would be able to you as a human were there using it kind of like how we use AI today. You use it as a tool to play against a player.

As it suggests a range of moves and you pick the most optimal one or.

As it suggests a range of moves and you pick the most optimal one or.

Yeah, to some extent, I think to a large extent, it tells you the next move and you just kind of executed it. Yeah, So he was playing chess online so much that the computer scientist was like wondering when he was going to get offline because he needed to, you know, tinker with the code and stuff.

Yeah, to some extent, I think to a large extent, it tells you the next move and you just kind of executed it. Yeah, So he was playing chess online so much that the computer scientist was like wondering when he was going to get offline because he needed to, you know, tinker with the code and stuff.

Incredible. I mean, if you'll often talk about the Middle East as a chess board, it's one of the kind of hoary analogyes, for thinking about the Middle East. But I mean, do you see something in Technom's fascination with chess and desire to win in chess that is a kind of key to understanding how he's approached his own rights to power.

Incredible. I mean, if you'll often talk about the Middle East as a chess board, it's one of the kind of hoary analogyes, for thinking about the Middle East. But I mean, do you see something in Technom's fascination with chess and desire to win in chess that is a kind of key to understanding how he's approached his own rights to power.

Well, I mean, to some extent, A country like the UAE is in a very interesting sort of precarious position compared to some other bigger country. It's pretty small. It's a country of I think it's something like six million residents. Of those, more than a million are actual emiratis, so it's a very small population. The country is famously full of expats, so there's no way that they could ever go to war with another country. As a country, they really have to be kind of strategically allied at the same time as that they don't want to just be a pawn of the West or of America. So they're in things like developing a stronger relationship with China. So I do think someone like Toatnoon and someone like the President Muhammad Bin de Sided figuring out how how they fit into the world is is a very strategic question for them.

Well, I mean, to some extent, A country like the UAE is in a very interesting sort of precarious position compared to some other bigger country. It's pretty small. It's a country of I think it's something like six million residents. Of those, more than a million are actual emiratis, so it's a very small population. The country is famously full of expats, so there's no way that they could ever go to war with another country. As a country, they really have to be kind of strategically allied at the same time as that they don't want to just be a pawn of the West or of America. So they're in things like developing a stronger relationship with China. So I do think someone like Toatnoon and someone like the President Muhammad Bin de Sided figuring out how how they fit into the world is is a very strategic question for them.

I want to kind of chart Technolog's progress from eccentric with interest in chess and robotics to spy master to this kind of current AI investor at large. But maybe we can start with with his kind of becoming a spy master. How did that start to happen? How did it start to show up?

I want to kind of chart Technolog's progress from eccentric with interest in chess and robotics to spy master to this kind of current AI investor at large. But maybe we can start with with his kind of becoming a spy master. How did that start to happen? How did it start to show up?

Well, I'll caveat by saying it's very hard to know everything about these people because they don't give interviews, nobody talks around them in an official capacity. You know, it's a very difficult place to report on, and I'm only able to do so because I've lived in the region and i just developed enough relationships where I'm able to do that. But my hypothesis around how he became a spymaster is actually focused on this digit because when he was running Royal Group and focusing on Rheam Island and not really playing a huge role in sort of the strategic part of the country. They started having some questions about how do they use technology to enforce essentially a police state because the UAE, like I said before, is kind of fragile. It's kind of a spy's paradise because all the countries in the world are there, and so they're all spying against each other, and there's an element of danger and risk to their whole positioning. If there was a bomb that exploded in Dubai or something, that would be hugely problematic for the country. So they were thinking about, well, we can't have like police on every corner. We're not China, we don't have that size of a population, so we need to use other techniques, and technology was the answer, you know. And so I think top Nune just had a much greater appreciation of technology and that was enough to make him start to play a crucial role in how do we use technology for domestic security and then overtime for external threats as well. And so there was like a pro democracy activist in the UAE, and famously, when they figured out how his computer had been hacked, they traced it back to the Royal Group there was like a connection in the kind of digital trail, So that's why I have that hypothesis. And then also there's an element of his personality which is useful too, which is he doesn't seem to me in all my reporting to be a judgmental person or a dogmatic person at all, which is probably useful to be as a spymaster. So whenever, for example, secret meetings happened, he would be often the person that would go, and it wouldn't be like a news item for him to go, versus if his brother went. The kind of effective ruler, and he seemed to have a kind of cool temper because the UAE was in this very pitched, never physical, but very heated battle with Qatar, this other little island nearby, and eventually when they reached a deal mostly broke good by Saudi Arabia, it was only tak Noon who would go and meet the quitaris. So I think that's kind of why he eased into the role to some extent.

Well, I'll caveat by saying it's very hard to know everything about these people because they don't give interviews, nobody talks around them in an official capacity. You know, it's a very difficult place to report on, and I'm only able to do so because I've lived in the region and i just developed enough relationships where I'm able to do that. But my hypothesis around how he became a spymaster is actually focused on this digit because when he was running Royal Group and focusing on Rheam Island and not really playing a huge role in sort of the strategic part of the country. They started having some questions about how do they use technology to enforce essentially a police state because the UAE, like I said before, is kind of fragile. It's kind of a spy's paradise because all the countries in the world are there, and so they're all spying against each other, and there's an element of danger and risk to their whole positioning. If there was a bomb that exploded in Dubai or something, that would be hugely problematic for the country. So they were thinking about, well, we can't have like police on every corner. We're not China, we don't have that size of a population, so we need to use other techniques, and technology was the answer, you know. And so I think top Nune just had a much greater appreciation of technology and that was enough to make him start to play a crucial role in how do we use technology for domestic security and then overtime for external threats as well. And so there was like a pro democracy activist in the UAE, and famously, when they figured out how his computer had been hacked, they traced it back to the Royal Group there was like a connection in the kind of digital trail, So that's why I have that hypothesis. And then also there's an element of his personality which is useful too, which is he doesn't seem to me in all my reporting to be a judgmental person or a dogmatic person at all, which is probably useful to be as a spymaster. So whenever, for example, secret meetings happened, he would be often the person that would go, and it wouldn't be like a news item for him to go, versus if his brother went. The kind of effective ruler, and he seemed to have a kind of cool temper because the UAE was in this very pitched, never physical, but very heated battle with Qatar, this other little island nearby, and eventually when they reached a deal mostly broke good by Saudi Arabia, it was only tak Noon who would go and meet the quitaris. So I think that's kind of why he eased into the role to some extent.

What was some of the other kind of signature cyber espionage programs and did you have any experience of them in the period you were living in UAE.

What was some of the other kind of signature cyber espionage programs and did you have any experience of them in the period you were living in UAE.

I had this kind of funny experience. One day, I think probably in two thousand and nine or so, everyone had blackberries at that time, iPhones were not as popular, and I picked the BlackBerry up to speak into it, and it was so hot that it almost burnd me the mic in my phone, and I thought there was something going wrong with it. But then everybody else started having the same problem, that they were reporting the same problem, and then emerged on a security website that what had happened was they had tried to roll out to all Blackberries a kind of patch that allowed them to selectively download all of the messages of that person, because at that time, BlackBerry messengers were considered very secure and you couldn't get BlackBerry emails, and so basically the UA government couldn't access what was happening on BlackBerry messengers. But instead of rolling it out correctly, they rolled it out so that all the phones instantly started trying to download all the messages to a central server, and that server just got completely overloaded instantly, But because it kept trying to access it over and over again, it was heating up.

I had this kind of funny experience. One day, I think probably in two thousand and nine or so, everyone had blackberries at that time, iPhones were not as popular, and I picked the BlackBerry up to speak into it, and it was so hot that it almost burnd me the mic in my phone, and I thought there was something going wrong with it. But then everybody else started having the same problem, that they were reporting the same problem, and then emerged on a security website that what had happened was they had tried to roll out to all Blackberries a kind of patch that allowed them to selectively download all of the messages of that person, because at that time, BlackBerry messengers were considered very secure and you couldn't get BlackBerry emails, and so basically the UA government couldn't access what was happening on BlackBerry messengers. But instead of rolling it out correctly, they rolled it out so that all the phones instantly started trying to download all the messages to a central server, and that server just got completely overloaded instantly, But because it kept trying to access it over and over again, it was heating up.

The phones and was taken and directly involved in that. We don't know, I guess, but do you have hypothesis that he may have been.

The phones and was taken and directly involved in that. We don't know, I guess, but do you have hypothesis that he may have been.

I think it was part of the kinds of things he was working on. I don't know if it was his particular responsibility or decision, but I think yeah.

I think it was part of the kinds of things he was working on. I don't know if it was his particular responsibility or decision, but I think yeah.

Coming up, how do spymaster Shake became a pivotal player in the global race for AI stay with us? How did this sort of experience with building a technological surveillance architecture prepare technom for the current chapter? I mean, how do you go from the mid two thousands to today in terms of the scale of what he's trying to achieve even and how did this cyberspionare stuff in a sense prepare him for the moment?

Coming up, how do spymaster Shake became a pivotal player in the global race for AI stay with us? How did this sort of experience with building a technological surveillance architecture prepare technom for the current chapter? I mean, how do you go from the mid two thousands to today in terms of the scale of what he's trying to achieve even and how did this cyberspionare stuff in a sense prepare him for the moment?

Well, I would say probably right now, the cyber espionage stuff is actually holding him back to some extent because he has it's a bit of a checkered history for because the UAE has a lot of money and it wants to invest that money in a way that results in more money being made. And also they're quite trend following. They love new technology, and when there's a big sector interest in the world, they also are interested in that sector. And then also any wealthy developing country so to speak, can you use AI as a differentiator because they're going to be less focused on like AI ethics or controls. They'll be more focused on just using it, getting it going, but there will be less handringing about the problems and risks of that. So I think the UA is just a place that is generating a lot of money because of oil, and they're looking for places to put it, and they're excited to put it into the things that seem exciting.

Well, I would say probably right now, the cyber espionage stuff is actually holding him back to some extent because he has it's a bit of a checkered history for because the UAE has a lot of money and it wants to invest that money in a way that results in more money being made. And also they're quite trend following. They love new technology, and when there's a big sector interest in the world, they also are interested in that sector. And then also any wealthy developing country so to speak, can you use AI as a differentiator because they're going to be less focused on like AI ethics or controls. They'll be more focused on just using it, getting it going, but there will be less handringing about the problems and risks of that. So I think the UA is just a place that is generating a lot of money because of oil, and they're looking for places to put it, and they're excited to put it into the things that seem exciting.

One of these things is Stargate, right star Yeah, And Stargate is this huge investment program to build data centers that Trump announced recently with Larry Ellison from Oracle and Sam Altman from Open AI and Nassi actually so from SoftBank. According to your piece, Taknoon is in control of an enormous amount of money one point five trillion dollars, and after he was kind of passed over in the succession race, he was made chairman of the Abu Dhabi Investment Authority, a sovereign wealth fund that controls money on behalf of the government. On top of that, Taknoon presides over something called Group forty two or G forty two. Can you tell us a bit more about this tech conglomerate.

One of these things is Stargate, right star Yeah, And Stargate is this huge investment program to build data centers that Trump announced recently with Larry Ellison from Oracle and Sam Altman from Open AI and Nassi actually so from SoftBank. According to your piece, Taknoon is in control of an enormous amount of money one point five trillion dollars, and after he was kind of passed over in the succession race, he was made chairman of the Abu Dhabi Investment Authority, a sovereign wealth fund that controls money on behalf of the government. On top of that, Taknoon presides over something called Group forty two or G forty two. Can you tell us a bit more about this tech conglomerate.

So one of Tartnun's favorite things are conglomerates, and there's many different parts of money in Abudwi. There's more passive big funds like the abadw Investment Authority, and then there's all these more aggressive funds. There's Mubadala, and then there's even more aggressive funds which are like the Tatnoon entities. These different conglomerates. One of the ones he created was called G forty two or Group forty two is supposedly a reference to is that Hitchiker's Guy, Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Yeah, so this group was a kind of Frankenstein in a way. It collected some old companies that were moved under it, and then it also established new initiatives, and like all golf things, it was extremely well funded, you know, in the billions. But also hidden within the structure are companies that could be even perceived as a bit problematic because of the kind of work they were doing. So it kind of has again this James Bond villain vibe Group forty two.

So one of Tartnun's favorite things are conglomerates, and there's many different parts of money in Abudwi. There's more passive big funds like the abadw Investment Authority, and then there's all these more aggressive funds. There's Mubadala, and then there's even more aggressive funds which are like the Tatnoon entities. These different conglomerates. One of the ones he created was called G forty two or Group forty two is supposedly a reference to is that Hitchiker's Guy, Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Yeah, so this group was a kind of Frankenstein in a way. It collected some old companies that were moved under it, and then it also established new initiatives, and like all golf things, it was extremely well funded, you know, in the billions. But also hidden within the structure are companies that could be even perceived as a bit problematic because of the kind of work they were doing. So it kind of has again this James Bond villain vibe Group forty two.

So there's this one chess game happening in the Middle East between Kutter and Saudi and UAE, and then there's another global chess game when it comes to technology, and I think we just talked about Stargate, but then we had the deep seek Chinese AI model. We've had the hand ringing about whether or not export controls on video chips actually effective. Is taking on positioning himself with the UAE's cash and his investments, to play a role in this larger global chess game.

So there's this one chess game happening in the Middle East between Kutter and Saudi and UAE, and then there's another global chess game when it comes to technology, and I think we just talked about Stargate, but then we had the deep seek Chinese AI model. We've had the hand ringing about whether or not export controls on video chips actually effective. Is taking on positioning himself with the UAE's cash and his investments, to play a role in this larger global chess game.

I think in general, the UAE doesn't have an inherent AI advantage. They haven't, for example, drawn all the world's best AI people to live in Abu Dawi to build their companies. So what they can do is piggyback on these bigger companies in Silicon Valley. And the challenge that they've had in the chess game is that the US is taking this very protectionist view of AI and they're saying this is like a national treasure security issue, and they told the UA, look, you can't work with China if you're going to work with US. So one of the things that group for you two has had to do, and what Town News had to do is basically jettison all of this maybe perhaps billions of dollars of investment in China related joint ventures just to have access to the seemingly cutting edge USAI companies.

I think in general, the UAE doesn't have an inherent AI advantage. They haven't, for example, drawn all the world's best AI people to live in Abu Dawi to build their companies. So what they can do is piggyback on these bigger companies in Silicon Valley. And the challenge that they've had in the chess game is that the US is taking this very protectionist view of AI and they're saying this is like a national treasure security issue, and they told the UA, look, you can't work with China if you're going to work with US. So one of the things that group for you two has had to do, and what Town News had to do is basically jettison all of this maybe perhaps billions of dollars of investment in China related joint ventures just to have access to the seemingly cutting edge USAI companies.

So in a sense, the US forced Tarknoon into a choice between the US and China in terms of access to investment.

So in a sense, the US forced Tarknoon into a choice between the US and China in terms of access to investment.

Yes, exactly, because if the UAE remained close with China, especially some of these companies like Huawei and had this potential risk according to the US of IP leakage and information leakage to the Chinese companies and the government, then the US was going to block them from having any of the fancy Nvidia chips that you need to kind of do this AI training and make it very difficult for them to have play a role in AI at all.

Yes, exactly, because if the UAE remained close with China, especially some of these companies like Huawei and had this potential risk according to the US of IP leakage and information leakage to the Chinese companies and the government, then the US was going to block them from having any of the fancy Nvidia chips that you need to kind of do this AI training and make it very difficult for them to have play a role in AI at all.

And why now and what made what made this moment that the one to kind of run a big story on Tagnoon.

And why now and what made what made this moment that the one to kind of run a big story on Tagnoon.

Well, primarily I would say is that he had become such a high profile person. So not only had he taken on so much money control of so much money in the country, so he became this big investor globally, but also he had really sort of broken through from spymaster to kind of citing to be this more public figure. So even last summer he was on this big almost like a road show. It is very similar to when Mohammed bin Salman first came to America and he had all the meetings in Silicon Valley and in Texas. So actually taught Nun did the exact same trip this last summer, and it was all in anticipation of this kind of rebranding of him and the rebranding of his efforts as being you know, the friendly partner in AI investing. And obviously this coincides with this huge demand for funding because you know, these companies like open Ai are just absorbing billions of dollars and just burning it on training new models and trying to grow and defeat the competition.

Well, primarily I would say is that he had become such a high profile person. So not only had he taken on so much money control of so much money in the country, so he became this big investor globally, but also he had really sort of broken through from spymaster to kind of citing to be this more public figure. So even last summer he was on this big almost like a road show. It is very similar to when Mohammed bin Salman first came to America and he had all the meetings in Silicon Valley and in Texas. So actually taught Nun did the exact same trip this last summer, and it was all in anticipation of this kind of rebranding of him and the rebranding of his efforts as being you know, the friendly partner in AI investing. And obviously this coincides with this huge demand for funding because you know, these companies like open Ai are just absorbing billions of dollars and just burning it on training new models and trying to grow and defeat the competition.

Can you just explain what is the balance they're trying to strike between investing in projects like Stargate and investing domestically.

Can you just explain what is the balance they're trying to strike between investing in projects like Stargate and investing domestically.

Well, I think Stargate is for the UA. Stargate would be a political investment to just make Trump happy because it means that because Trump loves to make announcements where there's big numbers, and they contributed to that. So anybody who comes to Washington and agrees to make a big number announcement gets you know, FaceTime with the President. So there's a political element for sure. And then on top of that, it's continuing to beat down the skepticism of the UAE as a trustworthy partner. There's a lot of people in the security apparatus who think it's a terrible idea to allow anything sensitive within the UAE. Not not even because the UA wants to leak it, but maybe they just can't even prevent it from leaking in some cases, like it may just be considered a leaky place for one reason or another. And then also it's a chance for them to grow closer to these companies like open AI and potentially get open AI to let them build facilities in the UA, which leads to other economic benefits for the UAE. And also they always like to be close to domain experts so that they can figure out how they might be able to apply those innovations in the country. So the UA has in a bit of head of the curve. They had the first Minister of AI before this big AI boom, and I think because they're so small, they really want to use this to tackle the bureaucracy of the country and make it possible to even better self govern themselves.

Well, I think Stargate is for the UA. Stargate would be a political investment to just make Trump happy because it means that because Trump loves to make announcements where there's big numbers, and they contributed to that. So anybody who comes to Washington and agrees to make a big number announcement gets you know, FaceTime with the President. So there's a political element for sure. And then on top of that, it's continuing to beat down the skepticism of the UAE as a trustworthy partner. There's a lot of people in the security apparatus who think it's a terrible idea to allow anything sensitive within the UAE. Not not even because the UA wants to leak it, but maybe they just can't even prevent it from leaking in some cases, like it may just be considered a leaky place for one reason or another. And then also it's a chance for them to grow closer to these companies like open AI and potentially get open AI to let them build facilities in the UA, which leads to other economic benefits for the UAE. And also they always like to be close to domain experts so that they can figure out how they might be able to apply those innovations in the country. So the UA has in a bit of head of the curve. They had the first Minister of AI before this big AI boom, and I think because they're so small, they really want to use this to tackle the bureaucracy of the country and make it possible to even better self govern themselves.

And of course one of the key things you need a lot of AI right now seemingly is cash, but the other is energy. So there is a there's a kind of geo strategic advantage that UA has in that respect, right.

And of course one of the key things you need a lot of AI right now seemingly is cash, but the other is energy. So there is a there's a kind of geo strategic advantage that UA has in that respect, right.

Yeah, And also the UA because of the distorted amount of capital in Abu Dhabi and because everything is top down, they end up doing a lot of things that are not economically feasible in the short term, Like, for example, when they're building infrastructure, they overbuild. They like vastly overbuild their infrastructure, which at the time is inefficient as an economic point. But in this particular case, now they have all this excess capacity for power, for space, for water, and things like that that they can use to now pivot towards building data centers for example.

Yeah, And also the UA because of the distorted amount of capital in Abu Dhabi and because everything is top down, they end up doing a lot of things that are not economically feasible in the short term, Like, for example, when they're building infrastructure, they overbuild. They like vastly overbuild their infrastructure, which at the time is inefficient as an economic point. But in this particular case, now they have all this excess capacity for power, for space, for water, and things like that that they can use to now pivot towards building data centers for example.

How did China react to technoum walking away from some of those relationships.

How did China react to technoum walking away from some of those relationships.

Well, that's one thing that I talked to some people in the US government about which was interesting that usually when somebody makes a public kind of embarrassment for China or they reject them, or they tear their equipment out or whatever, or they suggest that Huawei is unreliable or a state backed conspiracy or something, they tend to punish people for that in one way or another. But now in the UA's case. I think China's playing a longer game. They realize the UA has to make these kind of comments and follow the US orders I guess or requirements. But I think that the fact that they didn't say anything about it suggests that they feel very comfortable in their relationship with UAE in the long run, and that the UAE itself is going to follow the rules to the letter of the law, but not beyond that. So there's going to be always room for further discussion.

Well, that's one thing that I talked to some people in the US government about which was interesting that usually when somebody makes a public kind of embarrassment for China or they reject them, or they tear their equipment out or whatever, or they suggest that Huawei is unreliable or a state backed conspiracy or something, they tend to punish people for that in one way or another. But now in the UA's case. I think China's playing a longer game. They realize the UA has to make these kind of comments and follow the US orders I guess or requirements. But I think that the fact that they didn't say anything about it suggests that they feel very comfortable in their relationship with UAE in the long run, and that the UAE itself is going to follow the rules to the letter of the law, but not beyond that. So there's going to be always room for further discussion.

When we come back the future of the United Arab Emirates global AI influence stay with US. Did the US under the Biden administration build in any enforcement requirements to make sure that in return for access to key US technologies technolo in the UAE sort of kepture their word and didn't also work with China. Or was this like a handshake agreement.

When we come back the future of the United Arab Emirates global AI influence stay with US. Did the US under the Biden administration build in any enforcement requirements to make sure that in return for access to key US technologies technolo in the UAE sort of kepture their word and didn't also work with China. Or was this like a handshake agreement.

I don't think there's a lot of teeth on it, But I think Microsoft has taken on a lot of responsibility because they're sort of the partner at Group forty two.

I don't think there's a lot of teeth on it, But I think Microsoft has taken on a lot of responsibility because they're sort of the partner at Group forty two.

So Microsoft invested in Group forty.

So Microsoft invested in Group forty.

Two, yes, as a kind of as part of this whole agreement with the US government to allow the UA to start having more access to AI technology and these chips. So Microsoft has kind of became a little bit of a steward of that decision. So they've taken on a little risk because if for some reason group who does something untoward which we don't think or no they will, then Microsoft will look pretty bad for having been an investor in the company and overseer of this relationship.

Two, yes, as a kind of as part of this whole agreement with the US government to allow the UA to start having more access to AI technology and these chips. So Microsoft has kind of became a little bit of a steward of that decision. So they've taken on a little risk because if for some reason group who does something untoward which we don't think or no they will, then Microsoft will look pretty bad for having been an investor in the company and overseer of this relationship.

It's so fascinating how there's so much criticism of state owned enterprises in China from a US perspective, but this seems to be, at least on the surface, looks like an example of a private company sort of being coupted by the government or encouraged by the government to play a role in diplomacy.

It's so fascinating how there's so much criticism of state owned enterprises in China from a US perspective, but this seems to be, at least on the surface, looks like an example of a private company sort of being coupted by the government or encouraged by the government to play a role in diplomacy.

Yeah. I mean, it's a very complex space too, and you know, also it's one of those things where there's so much going on all the time. For example, it's my understanding that in the future, whenever you use chat GBT and maybe in certain parts of the world, there's a chance that your query will rout through the UAE. So there's two types of AI that require these chips. One of them is the training of the original models, and that's kind of like the secret sauce very closely held that will continue to be only done in America. But then the other thing is the actual workforce nature of AI where it which is called inference. And so if you're putting in a request that could route through the UA, and it's a little nerve wracking if you, for example, might be an IMMORDI activist based in London, to know that you know you're trying to build your some sort of a document using AI, it might be routing through the UE. And there's just a feeling, at least at this stage, that that's a bit risky. And it's unclear if it is a risk or not, but it definitely feels like a risk.

Yeah. I mean, it's a very complex space too, and you know, also it's one of those things where there's so much going on all the time. For example, it's my understanding that in the future, whenever you use chat GBT and maybe in certain parts of the world, there's a chance that your query will rout through the UAE. So there's two types of AI that require these chips. One of them is the training of the original models, and that's kind of like the secret sauce very closely held that will continue to be only done in America. But then the other thing is the actual workforce nature of AI where it which is called inference. And so if you're putting in a request that could route through the UA, and it's a little nerve wracking if you, for example, might be an IMMORDI activist based in London, to know that you know you're trying to build your some sort of a document using AI, it might be routing through the UE. And there's just a feeling, at least at this stage, that that's a bit risky. And it's unclear if it is a risk or not, but it definitely feels like a risk.

So, taking a step back, what is your interpretation of what Technowon's key goal is today overall with all of his AI stuff, and is he on track to achieving it?

So, taking a step back, what is your interpretation of what Technowon's key goal is today overall with all of his AI stuff, and is he on track to achieving it?

I would say his big goal is to I mean, it's funny to say it like this, but simplistically, his big goal is to look like he's succeeding. So the optics of all these deals, for example, saying I made a return on this deal are the thing that matters the most. Nothing matters more than that, And then after that, it might be that AI somehow helps transform the country and makes it more efficient and makes it a better place to live and things like that. But that's a distant second to the first one, which again just is a very clear indication that we're dealing with an absolute monarchy without power centered in one place. So it's all about how you look visa vis your brother or brothers, and that's the most important thing to them of all.

I would say his big goal is to I mean, it's funny to say it like this, but simplistically, his big goal is to look like he's succeeding. So the optics of all these deals, for example, saying I made a return on this deal are the thing that matters the most. Nothing matters more than that, And then after that, it might be that AI somehow helps transform the country and makes it more efficient and makes it a better place to live and things like that. But that's a distant second to the first one, which again just is a very clear indication that we're dealing with an absolute monarchy without power centered in one place. So it's all about how you look visa vis your brother or brothers, and that's the most important thing to them of all.

I think, I guess two big things changed since you reported this story. The first is the Biden administration became the Trump administration, and the second was this kind of like deep seek freak out where the power of export controls on Nvidia GPUs was was questioned. Can you kind of talk about both of those things in terms of how they affect the fundamental dynamics of the story that you wrote.

I think, I guess two big things changed since you reported this story. The first is the Biden administration became the Trump administration, and the second was this kind of like deep seek freak out where the power of export controls on Nvidia GPUs was was questioned. Can you kind of talk about both of those things in terms of how they affect the fundamental dynamics of the story that you wrote.

Yeah. I think on the Trump side, he's always been a fan of this transactional relationship with the Golf, like he wants to do a big deal and they have a lot of money, and let's do a deal. And the UA. He's always understood that the Gulf people in general, the leaders enjoy Donald Trump for that reason because they kind of know who they're dealing with. He's not somebody who's going to be trying to enforce some sort of view of what the world should be like or what human rights are things like that. Not that they don't believe in human rights in the UAE, but they just have a very different understanding of government. They believe in absolute power and they don't believe in democracy and things like that. So I think on the Trump side, things are looking good for them. But on the other hand, Trump is still pretty hawkish on China and so the same kind of standards that were placed before. By the way, the kind of criticism of the Group forty two deal wasn't coming from the Democrats. Actually it was coming from both sides, including a lot of people who are hawkish on China and things like that. So I think he will still be persuaded by the China argument to keep very tight control on AI technology. So it's probably not too transformed different that respect. On the deepseak side, I'm sure at a strategic level, they were thinking to themselves that they've really sided with the US in a somewhat short sighted way, because if they had stuck with their China partnerships, they maybe would have had access to just as good, if not cheaper, less constrained requirements and rules around China AI. But at the end of the day, the UAE has always been a fairly pro US leaning country, So I'm not sure if they would have gone completely gone a different direction, but it would have given them a different kind of leverage in these discussions.

Yeah. I think on the Trump side, he's always been a fan of this transactional relationship with the Golf, like he wants to do a big deal and they have a lot of money, and let's do a deal. And the UA. He's always understood that the Gulf people in general, the leaders enjoy Donald Trump for that reason because they kind of know who they're dealing with. He's not somebody who's going to be trying to enforce some sort of view of what the world should be like or what human rights are things like that. Not that they don't believe in human rights in the UAE, but they just have a very different understanding of government. They believe in absolute power and they don't believe in democracy and things like that. So I think on the Trump side, things are looking good for them. But on the other hand, Trump is still pretty hawkish on China and so the same kind of standards that were placed before. By the way, the kind of criticism of the Group forty two deal wasn't coming from the Democrats. Actually it was coming from both sides, including a lot of people who are hawkish on China and things like that. So I think he will still be persuaded by the China argument to keep very tight control on AI technology. So it's probably not too transformed different that respect. On the deepseak side, I'm sure at a strategic level, they were thinking to themselves that they've really sided with the US in a somewhat short sighted way, because if they had stuck with their China partnerships, they maybe would have had access to just as good, if not cheaper, less constrained requirements and rules around China AI. But at the end of the day, the UAE has always been a fairly pro US leaning country, So I'm not sure if they would have gone completely gone a different direction, but it would have given them a different kind of leverage in these discussions.

And then I guess, just to close, what will you be looking out for in this story as it develops? I mean, this is the Tech Stuff podcast. What should the text Stuff audience know and be thinking about when it comes to the interaction between the golf monarchys, their investment portfolios, and the development of technology in the US.

And then I guess, just to close, what will you be looking out for in this story as it develops? I mean, this is the Tech Stuff podcast. What should the text Stuff audience know and be thinking about when it comes to the interaction between the golf monarchys, their investment portfolios, and the development of technology in the US.

Well, I'm very persuaded by this publication called Rest of the World, which is run by a called Sophie Schmidt, and they have this view which I really subscribe to, which is that all of the best and worst things that could happen with AI are not going to happen necessarily in the Western countries first, because if you're in Indonesia, if you're in Thailand, that's where people are going to really be able to push the limits on the AI use cases in ways that are both dangerous and good at the same time. So I think watching how AI is used in countries around the world, especially places like the UAE, is very indicative of the true underlying value and danger of AI, because it's like, you know, if a criminal sits down with an AI and it's not controlled in the way that it is controlled now, and they say they want to do something, it could become an ingenious tool to invent schemes and things like that. And the same thing can be true of countries which is inventing things, inventing ways of repression, of monitoring the population and things like that. So I think that's really crucial, really important. The story that I wrote was a lot more about strategic geostrategic element, but the application of AI is really important on the geo strategic level. I would also be really interested to see how the Saudi UAE relationship continues to play out. Saudi is a much bigger country with a much bigger economy, much bigger ambitions in a way, and now they're watching the UAE make these announcements with Donald Trump, and they're they're most likely in my view, sitting back thinking about Okay, what's our you know, one two punch going to be that's going to completely change this equation and make us the leading investor in AI in the world.

Well, I'm very persuaded by this publication called Rest of the World, which is run by a called Sophie Schmidt, and they have this view which I really subscribe to, which is that all of the best and worst things that could happen with AI are not going to happen necessarily in the Western countries first, because if you're in Indonesia, if you're in Thailand, that's where people are going to really be able to push the limits on the AI use cases in ways that are both dangerous and good at the same time. So I think watching how AI is used in countries around the world, especially places like the UAE, is very indicative of the true underlying value and danger of AI, because it's like, you know, if a criminal sits down with an AI and it's not controlled in the way that it is controlled now, and they say they want to do something, it could become an ingenious tool to invent schemes and things like that. And the same thing can be true of countries which is inventing things, inventing ways of repression, of monitoring the population and things like that. So I think that's really crucial, really important. The story that I wrote was a lot more about strategic geostrategic element, but the application of AI is really important on the geo strategic level. I would also be really interested to see how the Saudi UAE relationship continues to play out. Saudi is a much bigger country with a much bigger economy, much bigger ambitions in a way, and now they're watching the UAE make these announcements with Donald Trump, and they're they're most likely in my view, sitting back thinking about Okay, what's our you know, one two punch going to be that's going to completely change this equation and make us the leading investor in AI in the world.

Thank you, Bradley, No problem. That's it for tech Stuff, I'm os Vloshin. This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis and Victoria Domingez. It was executive produced by me Karen Price and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Novelle for iHeart Podcasts. Jack Insley makes this episode and Kyle Murder Rodolph join us on Friday for the Weekend tech We'll break down the headlines and hear from our friends at four or Form Media about how Hollywood is getting creative with AI. Please rate, review and reach out to us at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com. We can't wait to hear from you.

Thank you, Bradley, No problem. That's it for tech Stuff, I'm os Vloshin. This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis and Victoria Domingez. It was executive produced by me Karen Price and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Novelle for iHeart Podcasts. Jack Insley makes this episode and Kyle Murder Rodolph join us on Friday for the Weekend tech We'll break down the headlines and hear from our friends at four or Form Media about how Hollywood is getting creative with AI. Please rate, review and reach out to us at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com. We can't wait to hear from you.