The Era(s) of Musician Este Haim

Published Aug 27, 2023, 8:00 AM

Musician and composer Este Haim has had quite the year.

Today, she reflects on HAIM’s eventful summer as part of Taylor Swift’s The Eras Tour (5:45), her pivot into scoring feature films (8:40), including Netflix’s You Are So Not Invited to My Bat Mitzvah (13:12), growing up in a family band called Rockenhaim (17:46) and the formative musicians that inspired her and her sisters as teenagers in Los Angeles (21:41).

On the back-half, Este describes the early years of HAIM (29:30), the band’s collaboration with producer and composer Ludwig Göransson (33:08), their debut album Days Are Gone (37:55), and the misogyny embedded in the music industry (39:15) that fueled their third record, Women in Music Pt. III (43:55). To close, a love letter to LA (47:54) and a tribute to Talking Heads’ Tina Weymouth (56:00), and how both have shaped Este’s journey, on and off stage (1:00:55).

Pushkin. This is talk Easy. I'm standing Fragoso. Welcome to the show today. I am joined by a musician and composer, Sti Hyam. Sti is one third of the rock band Hiham, created by her and her two sisters, Danielle and Alana. The group was founded back in two thousand and seven, and after about five years of detours in fall starts, they released their debut album, Days Are Gone in twenty thirteen. Then following that they released two more records, including Women in Music Part Three, which earned them a historic Grammy nomination in twenty twenty one as the first all female rock group to be nominated for Album of the Year. Since then, they've appeared in Paul Thomas Anderson's Licorice Pizza, head lined a tour called One More High m They had a featured song on the Barbie soundtrack, and most recently served as the opener on the West Coast leg of Taylor Swift's The Eras tour. As the summer comes to a close, I wanted to celebrate the ten year anniversary of Days Are Gone, along with all of the interesting work they've done since Forest That includes working as a composer on a series of new films, including the Netflix original You Are So Not Invited to My Bot mitzvah. We talk about her recent foray into composing. Throughout this conversation, we also talk about her upbringing in the vast Elly, the Salad days of Higham, the performers that inspired her, from Molly Shannon to the Talking Heads, and what she hopes for both herself and the band in the years to come. That's all next after the break with our guest st enjoy h.

St. What's up?

Hi? Hi?

How's a guy?

Oh?

Wait, you want to go first?

How are you okay? Well, I'm doing great. I'm doing fabulous. It's it's definitely a little toasty in here because I am wearing long sleeves in this Los Angeles heat. As a Pisces, usually I run very cold.

Why is that?

I guess it does something you do with a time of I mean it's the time of year. It's February and March. So I came out the womb just being cold. Just the overall atmosphere of the it was just frigid.

You stepped on my first question on that one, but yeah, that's oh, I'm sorry, that was right.

What I have.

It was the first question, what's your astrological sign? Is that where we're going with this?

No, I know it's March fourteenth.

I wonder you know that's Pie Day.

I do know that. I also know it's Quincy Jones' birthday.

Okay, Quincy Jones and Albert Einstein.

Do you guys have a lot in common?

We have? I mean I like to think we do.

You know, Since the first time I met the three of you, you, Danielle Alanah, I felt like I was auditioning for like the fourth time sister role. But I think after the Eras were like all submissions are closed, right, like Taylors cemented it.

I think, listen, we're always holding auditions. Hm, that's the thing.

I was a dark horse candidate.

Anyway, you fit right, I mean that hair, you fit right in. No, I think you know.

She hasn't claimed it. I feel like she's claimed it.

Taylor is the fourth time sster, right of course she is. And doing this tour, the Era's tour was like the most fun I've ever had, not even just on tour, but like in general, like every day was like going to Disneyland.

I was so I wanted to start here because you all did like nine ten shows with her.

We did ten shows. Yeah.

The New York Times recently ran an article titled, how Taylor Swift's Eras Tour conquered the world.

I mean not no, And I know.

It's not no no. Now that it's been like two weeks since you performed, what are you taking away from like this summer? How are you holding it?

I am taking away the fact that female friendship is so important, just seeing like girls running around like a lot of them with like their moms and like who's and the moms were Tailor fans, like from back in the day all the way up till now and now they have kids and like super generational. The sense of community and belonging and having such a shared experience like that, that was my big takeaway. There was so much joy in those stadiums, so like for that many people to just be having the time of their lives. I felt like I could like taste it in a weird way. And it's three and a half hours of that non stop. So yeah. So then I would play the shows and then I would come home and like everyone be like, Okay, we're exhausted, We're going to bed, and I'd be like, no, right, I'm going to be up for the next ten hours watching ninety de Fiance and The Real Housewives of New York. Like I'm not sleeping. What is your own blinding routine like mindless television?

M hm.

I'll maybe read a chapter or two of a book just to really chucker me out.

But the read like one chapter of a book like just.

To lights out, like really gets me, Like I'm out. I see how I'm gone.

Aside from these swift shows, yes, you've been doing like a whole lot this summer. That there's a song on Barbie obviously. Yes, there's also this new film that's out called You're So Not Invited to My bot mitzvah Now. Danielle once described the musical process of Higham as this, It's like putting together mister potato head part by part when it comes to scoring. Is it the same process or is there another toy analogy that you want to use.

It's more like shoots and ladders. Now you kind of have to be more malleable, I think as a composer as opposed to being an artist, where hopefully you have complete jurisdiction over the music that you're making from start to finish. It's you, your vision, your lyrics, or you know, for people that don't write songs, like you're singing the song in the way that you want to sing it to your voice. For the most part, there's a lot of autonomy with composing. You have to be a little more slippery.

What a slippery mean?

Like you see a scene and you're like, this is the feeling that I'm getting, This is how I feel when I watch this, and therefore, this is the instrumentation I want to use. This is the you know, the melody that I'm hearing when I watch this scene. You make it, you send it off to the hours that be, and then you get notes back that are like, you're a billion percent wrong?

How are you with notes?

So good with notes? I think that's maybe there's I think it's like a two pronged situation with Stieheim as a composer taking notes, being collaborative. I think that is I have to be that way. I have two other collaborators, and the good thing about him is there's three people, so more often than not, two people feel the same way and one may not.

And in your dynamic, who are the two usually aligned.

In I full disclosure, My lyrics can go a little emo. I can go pretty dashboard confessional pretty quick. So usually I will present lyrics and again kind of have to be a little bit slippery. Daniel and Alane will usually be like, that's a little intent. We're gonna reel it in a little bit. Let's shape it. I mean, I think all three of us we take the art and the craft of songwriting extremely seriously. And because of that, you know, we have very strong opinions when it comes to what is great and if something could be greater. I think that's one thing. Speaking of Quincy Jones, I remember either reading an interview or watching an interview with him talking about Michael Jackson, and Michael would do like would write something and it would be great, and then he would be like, we can beat it. He just constantly was trying to make the melodies and the lyrics and the like the even like you know, you hear that Thriller was mastered like something like twenty times, like something crazy. So I think we've kind of taken that on and like we're always just trying to make the songs better and more are vivid and you.

Know, do you feel like you apply that same rigor to composing.

I do. I mean there's different cooks in the kitchen.

Now.

I work with my sisters, people that are related to me, and there's there is like an almost an element of trust there because I have known them, they've known me their whole lives.

So with these new collaborators, you have to be a little more cordial cordial.

And there's also a language barrier a little bit because my sisters and I all speak not only do we speak sister, but we also speak music. Say Valley, Okay, yeah, we speak Valley like for sure, for sure, So there is a little bit of a language barrier. And I do think that it's a real thing because I know that USC has just started like making classes in the film department, like talking to directors as a composer, because there is it's a different language. So I think I do a pretty good job of being able to kind of be a little bit of a film composer whisperer. And I guess because I've been around so many producers my whole life, I can kind of read between the lines and kind of pick up what they're putting down.

So for this Bot Metzvah film. Yes, were you brought back to your own bot Metzvah back in nineteen ninety nine.

I mean, how could I not be?

This was at a roller rank in Rosina, Yes, catered by Dia Mori's Pizza. Yep. And of this celebration, you once said that your parents had something to prove in mounting my bot Metzvah. What exactly were they trying to prove on your on your big holy day?

Well, I think it was more that because I'm the oldest, this was their first foyer into bot metzva party planning with their day, big debut. And I grew up not necessarily having like like on my birthdays, my parents would like get me a cake. I didn't really have parties. I didn't really have sleepovers. But my bot Mitzvah, I was basically like, I'm thirteen, I'm a woman. Now women have parties, So we're doing it. And they were like, okay, they're doing that. They were excited, and again it was kind of like the world is your oyster with parameters. So like again, like I grew up, you know, I grew up in the valley English as a second language. Dad American mom. It wasn't like we had, you know, a lot of money to spend on something, but my parents were like, we want you to be happy, Like what is your dream? The day that that happened, I was watching MTV and I saw Mark McGrath's Sugar Ray roller skating in the Every Morning video and then I think, like the next song on TRL was literally Eve six inside out where there was in the music video. It was a great music video. There was a girl in hot pants and roller skates, very roller girl style, and also like I'd seen Boogie Nights, probably way earlier than I should have seen Boogie Knights, How are You in ninety seven? Which I was what eleven? But the TBS version the Hell's a TBS version, like the highly edited version, so like was on cable.

Look.

I saw it at fourteen with my mother. She showed me the film Your mom is so cool. You know that's a good reading of it.

Your mom, No, it's true. Listen, there were a lot of signs pointing to roller rink. I guess, is what I'm trying to say. And I think my mom bless her, was like really wanted when I said, like Mark McGrath's sugar Ray roller rink. My mom took that as that's the venue we're going to do it, and that exact venue is where we're going to do your bot mitzvah.

I'm curious because you've talked about your bot mitzvah a lot, yes, and this period of going to bar and bot mitzvah's. Yes, and you've said they were a lot of fun, But I also remember a lot of hurt feelings and tears. What was happening at this time?

Sam, okay, let me let me set this scene. Stie High. I am thirteen years old, cistic acne braces, oily hair, zero style, six feet tall. I mean the height's good, not when you're surrounded by Jewish men that literally come up to your pippoic. Every Jew at these bar mitzvahs was literally their eyes were at my navel. It wasn't even fun. Like they'd be at my boobs, like they were literally at my navel.

That would have been okay, boobs would have.

Probably been fun. That probably would have been like hushem coming down and being like I'm giving you a blessing. Instead, I stuck out like a sore thumb. You could drive a truck through my two front teeth. And then I got braces, and then I shock like dish showing comment that like I just was not I was not cute and all I wanted was to dance with I can name check him. His name was Alex Schreiderman, and Alex Scheiderman would not give me the time of day. Why neither were Jack Zonalmon neither with David Starkoff.

How far did they come up?

Alex was my height, That's why I was like, we're both tall. What is the issue?

Have they regretted it?

Since he definitely regrets it, Alex, if only if only you knew by that age, like fourteen fifteen, your playing bass in your family's band.

Yes, rocking him yep. I was thinking, were your classmates confused by your passion for like music? Did they understand it? Because by that point, weren't you already like skipping out on birthdays to perform at the Saint Francis to sal yep?

Oh I was skipping out on so many things.

I like that you knew that I was gonna say that.

Oh yeah. St. Francis Is sales every year standing gig. We did that we did the Sherman rock Street Fair every year. We played for Children's Hospital because I'm a Type one diabetic. We played like my parents' like office parties, never for money.

So your friend calls you up and they're like, hey, st yeah, it's my fifteenth birthday.

Sorry rehearsal.

Did you have a lisp embracist?

Then, Shari Joey, I'm so Sharry because and literally this is my friend Zoe unreal. Also the best her birthday was October sixteenth, and that was the same week as the shermanok Street Fair, so I could never go to her birthday parties.

Never.

She was from my best friends in high school.

So even then you were sacrificing. Oh oh my god, I mean that's more than most kids would.

Well what like you know, being a kid and like being in a family band. H When I was a kid, I thought every family had a family band. So like we started Rockenheim when I was ten or eleven, and in my mind I was like, well, if my family's doing this, this must be what every family's doing. So my friends would be like, we're going to the Fashion Square this weekend. S you do you want to come? And I'd be like, how are you going to the mall? Don't you rehearsal? And my friends would be like, what are you what? What do you mean? I'd be like, don't you have family band rehearsal.

At some point you must have realized that were weird, no, that you were pursuing a passion.

I mean, looking back, of course, I look back on it, and I'm like, it was so wholesome and it was a thing that I got to do with my family and it honestly, I had my ten thousand hours by the time I was like thirteen, and you mentioned my friends. My friends thought it was the coolest thing ever. I didn't. I was like, this is weird, Like I have the familiar yes, like what thirteen year old wants to hang out with their parents every weekend? So I was just like, your parents seem pretty fun. Though they're so fun. But I remember feeling really like embarrassed as a thirteen year old playing the Shermanook Street Fair and seeing all of like my friends in the audience and being like I cannot believe this is happening, and then all of them coming up to me after and being like that was the coolest thing I've ever seen, and there being some kind of like dissonance there. I was like, I don't understand, because I don't think this is cool.

Would their compliments alleviate some of your anxiety about it?

Maybe in the moment a little bit, because like, who doesn't like praise? But at the same time I was probably just kind of like yeah, but god, I was like still like I got gigs to do, Like I got gigs to do with this family band for probably the next couple of years. Like I'm tired. I'm tired, So you are tired at sixteen. I was tired at sixteen. I and to be fair, I also was going to a high school that was really really difficult, really hard, and I wasn't even doing music. I was doing theater. I wanted to be an actress. Molly Shannon she I was like, I want to be her. I wanted to be Molly Shannon in Felicity, like this smattering of the two. I wanted to like fall in love with my Ra, work at Tina de Luca, go to Nannie and my U like Molly Shannon, Like that was.

What I had snapped out.

Oh my god. I was like, I'm getting the fuck out of Los Angeles. I'm moving to New York and I'm going to be on SNL.

Can be further for what happened.

Next Sliding doors? Am I?

Right? As you and your sisters begin to take music more and more seriously.

Mm hmm.

This is a little bit later in high school. Yeah, you do what any good older sibling would do, uh huh, and procure a couple of fake ideas. Absolutely together, the three of you drive over the hill into Los Angeles and basically crash all of these shows that were happening at the time. Was it those shows that kind of fortified your desire to pursue this as a career.

I think it fortified our friendship as sisters. I think it was kind of what brought us together again. Alana at the time had braces and I would just tell her not to Like I was like, you do not open your mouth. If someone asks you a question, you don't answer it. You're you're silent.

Did she abide by that?

Absolutely? So obedient. I think we were all pretty obedient. I think until we got her too high school. I think that was when we reached the capacity for obedience. And then we hit sixteen and it was like out the window, like it's time to live a little bit, and you did and we did. But I also know that my parents knew that I would take care of didn't you, Allen Alana? When we were going out.

Were there shows or bands that kind of offered a template for what you wanted to become with your sisters?

Yes. The first band I think that all three of us kind of collectively became obsessed with, and I'd like to think that I introduced it to my sisters was royle O Kylie and the lead singer being Jenny Lewis. And the great thing about royle O Kylie was that they were a local band, so they were playing around La, gigging around La, and I'd just got my license, and I remember buying takeoffs and landings at Second Spin in the Valley and showing it to dang Allen Alana and them then also becoming kind of obsessed with songs, and you know, we went on the internet and would see pictures of Jenny and she's just so fucking cool, and the band itself was just they were just cool. And I think we would go to those shows and just be like, how cool would it be if we could do this, oh, like how much fun? Like? And they look they looked like they were having the best time, and like the people those shows were like screaming the lyrics and like diehard Jenny Lewis fans, and just like it was also just like such an indie shmindy time like music in the early two thousands and like the predecessor to like a Grizzly Bear and a Vampire Weekend, and like I kind of look at that era as like kind of like the heyday of Indy in my era of indie, but like in two thousand, two thousand and one, I was like why lo Kylie, and like we were. I was also obsessed with like Elliott Smith, just like like from a songwriting perspective, but also from like just melodies and like and then I was getting into like Dinosaur Junior, and I was getting into Saves the Day, and they were like all these different offshoots of like indie and like post punk and like whatever. So I would go to Second Spin in the Valley and pick up these CDs for like three or four bucks and bring them home and then show them to Daniel and Alana, and so we collectively kind of created this obsession with these bands together, and as we grew older, I think each of us would then kind of bring a new band into the collective, like what do we think about this, and then we you know, nine times out of ten we'd be like, okay, we're adding this to the binnacular because before that it was all music that my parents listened to. And then I think once I got into high school and I was hanging you know again, in my high school was full of super cool indie kids that were like, you know, I was like obsessed with like the French new wave and like you know, pruced the nouvelle vague, like you know what I mean, so like super cool shit that you know that. It was like if it wasn't French, it wasn't cool.

I'm just trying to imagine kids quoting oh.

Was breathless prove oh my god likes a way. It was like people were like like if I have a daughter and I'm gonna name her friend sUAS, it was like very much that, you know what I mean, Like literally kids would wear berets to school. It was very free and you were in a like in a collective of like just kids who were thirsting, thirsting for creativity and always trying to create. And then I think I kind of weirdly passed that down to daniel and Alana. I mean, they both ended up going to the same high school that I did. But I think musically, I think that we were just super jazzed that we were in a city where there was so much live music happening all the time and so many places where you could see music for free.

Well, we're right back with musician Sha, coming back from that obsession that you had that you passed down to Danielle then Alana, that three of you in earnest tried to create this band of yours. Yes, and from two thousand and six to twenty eleven, you have five pretty difficult sounding years. Yes, that don't go the way I think any of you wanted. Rejection from labels, venues, et cetera. How did you handle.

That blind faith and not understanding that failure is an option, just like just being like like, we're not even going to go down that path.

And your parents felt the same.

My parents were like, get a job, go to college. I mean, I think that they loved the fact that we were doing something together, but it was never something where they were like it's sink or swim. They weren't like this is you know, this has to happen. I think they were just stoked that we were spending so much time together.

But you did get a job. I mean you were a did get a job. Any jobs you worked in retail, You were a hostess.

I was a hostess and a waitress at the Cheesecake Factory at the Galleria in Sherman Oaks. I was a hostess and a waitress at the Daily Grill on Laura King and an Inventure, and at the Daily Grill at Universal CityWalk. So I worked. That was not a fun time for me.

At some point in this process, Yes, of like uploading your music to my Space. Yes, paying your friends to come to shows, to shows very much. So was there ever a moment where you couldn't see like the road ahead that it seemed unclear?

The only thing that I remember is when I graduated college, graduated from UCLA a lawn of graduated high school. Didn'tyelle was done touring with Jenny and Julian Casablancas. We said, Okay, we're going to give ourselves a full year. We're gonna hunker down, write a billion songs, Like we're gonna write so many songs, we're gonna produce them, and then we're hopefully gonna put them out. If nothing happens from there, we should revisit that. I think was the only time where we were like that is Sinker Swim, and that was in twenty eleven, ten ten to twenty eleven.

It's funny you mentioned like twenty ten, Yes, twenty eleven. By that point, Alana Sudd once, we'd recorded with like six producers, but nothing sounded right. We were like, we're a band that's always going to be the live band that never records were forever fucking cursed.

Yes, we could play live till our fingers bled and we didn't have vocal chords left, but the second we got in the studio, it didn't feel like we could achieve what we were hearing in our heads, and that was really frustrating. I think that we would watch like behind the music and see like Tom Petty in the studio with Jimmy Ivien and like the whole like benmont Tench is like just zeroing in on Tom Petty and they're all kind of looking at each other and then damn the torpedoes happened. I think in our mind it was like, oh, you get in a room and you record, and that's records are sold and records are sold. Like no, like it was completely naive of us. We didn't realize that, like, oh wait, but like, yeah, of course, Jimmy Ivien has like the best engineer of all time, and like it's not like the house engineer that like we were just like this works when we were kids. It was just kind of like no, like you play the instrument to the best of your ability, like of course when we record it, like it's gonna sound amazing, and that's not necessarily true.

Was the first time that the music in your head matched what actually came out? Did that happen in like twenty eleven? With a long haired music producer from Sweden named Little big Hornson who came on the show show last week? Oh was he the entryway to like the light at the end of the tunnel?

Well, he was the entryway to two things. He was the entryway to, oh, someone is actually spending time with us and trying to pull out what we're hearing in our heads. And also, oh my god, composing looks like so much fun. So he kind of changed I think, our lives. And that's why I think we always talk about how indebted we are to Ludwig, because we also were using his studio for free. He was giving us his time for free. He wasn't getting paid. But I think it was also the advent of Danielle becoming like a garage band wizard and really like spending every day learning about sonics. And that is a big kudos to my sister, because I don't know if I would have had the patience, but Danielle really again, I think she was also like I have a year to figure this out. I'm gonna just sit at this computer and twiddle the knobs and see what happens. Then we kind of took those demos to Ludwig, and you know, he would spend like the day composing, and you know, at the time he was doing like Fruitvale Station and he was also composing for community, and so he would work all day and then like I'd be in bed with like Bidesco, like Mario Bodesko Acney Cream, and I'd get like a text from him that was like, I have a couple hours, do you want to come to the studio. You know, he was really really giving with his time and his energy and yeah, and you know, we came out with three songs that we were happy with that we felt was kind of our like a calling card was and it was the thing that allowed us to go to south By Southwest and that was kind of the beginning of us becoming like a touring signed band.

You know when you said that he was the first person to actually try to excavate.

What was going on up here?

Yeah, yes, how did he go about doing that?

Trial and error? It was like he took the time to be like, what do you like, what do you think about that? Like, absolutely not, what do you think about this? What about that?

No?

Little closer like.

So all the all the bad ideas, throw.

This spaghetti at the walls. He wood sticks, And I think before that it was just kind of like we get in the studio and we'd be like, we're gonna play it the way that we play live and just record it live. And we again we didn't really understand that, like, oh no, like you can you can overdub things. Sub bass is fun like things like that were like we it wasn't in our wheelhouse until we met Ludwig and like he also was you know, he was also doing stuff with childish cambino and like, but also was classically trained jazz guitarist, so like he really had kind of both sides of the coin.

Was one of the songs that stuck forever.

That was the first one we went into the studio with Ludwig four and we had had this idea that it was like like a party jam, but we didn't know how to get there, and it wasn't until we met Ludwig and he was like, oh, we'll just do this, and he was like, try like a fun bassline st and I was like okay, And then I recorded this bassline and we put some drums to it and that was it, and like it became like what it is now, which is like, you know, like a fun, sad dance song.

Should we take a listen?

Sure this is forever by him, So like originally it was like do do jah, do do do chah, like cut like dude chah, like not a party jam.

Listening to that now is thinking about the ten year anniversary of Days Are Gone, Yeah, which I imagine has made you reflect on the past ten years and all that has happened. Yes, absolutely, What do you make of you when you hear that?

I mean it's you know, it's obviously emotional. I mean I think it's the age old thing where like you have your entire life to write your first record, so like everything leading up to to that has just been like experiences and you know, writing about heartbreak and also and love, and it's really a summation of like STI him up until twenty thirteen, and Danielle him up until twenty thirteen, and a lot of him up until twenty thirteen. So like there's a lot of history there. When I listened to Forever Now, it's funny because like, again, we were like such a ramshackle crew at the time. Like a lot of those sounds are Daniel's original sounds from garage band, you know. I think with any artist, like when you listen to music from like either your first record or second record, you're like, oh, I wish I could wuld have changed that, Oh wish that could have been better, like blah blah blah. But I definitely listened to our first record, and I'm just I'm super happy and stoked.

There were a lot of good albums in twenty thirteen. Yes, like it's the ten year anniversary of a few different ones that we're going to talk about on the show this fall. And I was thinking, for this this decade, you've been on this like unbelievable run where you start performing for audiences around the world. So much of those early years is marked by the embedded misogyny in the industry. And you have this great quote You've said to that misogyny the Stiheim now would not have been as polite, since we are an impolite show.

Absolutely.

What experiences were you thinking about when you said that.

Well, well, there's one in particular, and I've spoken about it a lot because we wrote man in the magazine in Women in Music Part three. It was really really early on in US touring and I think we had you know, I don't even think we were signed yet, but we had played a gig in London and it was the three of us backstage when this journalist said to me, or asked me, do I make the same faces on stage that I make in bed? I was not as good at yes ending. I guess I think you gave a pretty good yes. Oh, I said, there's only one way to find out. I was rolling with it because I didn't know anything different. And I think a lot of women in the industry also have come out and just kind of said like they have the same experience where they're like, you don't want to seem like a bitch, and you don't want to seem like you're ungrateful, and you don't want to seem like, you know, yeah, like you just want to be polite and in good spirits and always you.

Know, moving along, moving along at the expense of you holding.

This feeling like you're gonna talk, And also like in front of my sisters, like that's so fucking like what that is so weird and disgusting for lack of a better word, and so we get like the interview went on, and I just really didn't feel safe in that moment, and thank god I had my sisters with being imagined if I was by myself in a room with a guy asking me questions like that I a grown man, own man. I mean at the time, I was what like twenty five, twenty six, I wasn't like a you know, but I was a young girl, and in retrospect, I mean, yeah, I would have like, I don't want to say like I would get violent, but I definitely would have like stood up and been like this is over, like what who are you? Yeah, but didn't have the tools then to recognize that I could do that.

When did you find the yeah.

I'd like to think like after that, I think I kind of in retrospect, was just kind of like, wait, that wasn't okay. I need to be able to like stand up for myself, and in general, I'm unless someone is fucking with my family, I don't do a good job of standing up for myself. So in that moment, I think I also had to learn, like NOSTI like you also like you have to protect yourself too. It's not just the people around you.

My guess is because I have a sentence because you're funny, and then I think you're like, oh, I'll just pivot out of this with a joke, and that works because it like settles the room, but it does not account for like when you go home for yourself, I don't.

Think yeah, yeah, And That's.

What I'm asking about, is like how do you hold that now?

Well. I like the fact that I can be funny in the face of adversity, but like you said, I think after a while, it wears on you. And like, listen, I like the fact that I'm pretty jovial and life can be serious enough. Like you know, I'd like to walk through life with kind of a glass half full attitude. But yeah, according to my therapist, yeah, like me using humor as a defense mechanism. We could probably unpack that for the next twenty years.

Like you know, apparently I'm standing in this week.

Yeah, you know, you have a blonde wig with your name on it. You want to go to London have a good time. Oh you, I mean, you're not going to be the fourth time sister. You're just gonna be a him sister.

I'm taking your role, You're taking my role.

Get a blonde wig. I'm going to stay here and continue therapizing myself.

I'm trying to think if there's anything I could do as well as you on stage?

No, no, you okay, here's the thing, talk about humor. You could do a tight five on stage. We have we have the same height, we both have blue eyes. But outside of that, you're you're you have a Jeena saquaffie.

Will you know. I wasn't gonna say it, but.

Yeah, yeah, I wanted to speak French on this podcast just for a second.

You did. You did a few other reference proofed and.

Yeah, Lennouville vague, I'm so cosmopolitan cultured.

Really you.

Thank you?

Didn't the title of your last record, Women in Music Part Three? Didn't it come out of these experiences that we're talking about?

Yeah, I think it was, well, I think it came out of Daniel had a dream where she saw it on like a bunch of billboards, and then she woke out of the dream was like, that's actually really funny. And we had kind of, you know, been invited to things where it was like women like why, like why are we Why is our gender stratification in any of this?

Why?

A story that I always go back to is, you know, Joni Mitchell arguably one of the best songwriters of all time. She's walking down the street in the seventies and a man comes after her and is like, oh, Joni, like, I have to tell you, I am so in love with your music. You're the best female songwriter of all time. And Jonie was like, didn't was just looked at him, turned around about face and kept kept walking. How are you going to tell Joni Mitchell that she's the best female so like, no, she's like the best songwriter I think.

And Buffy Saint Marie also had stories like this too, really the same time. Yeah, they were in the same yeah, two of them. Oh yeah, Well I think.

It's I think it's it's it's just, you know, it's annoying. It really frosts my cookies when I hear stuff like that, And as a Type one diabetic, I don't like frostbot my cookies. I do not like it at all. So yeah, yeah, I just I think that we just got a little tired of this, like it and like and tired of you know, constantly needing to be yeah, like gender stratification within music, like why why Like you wouldn't call the Strokes a boy band, so why do you call as a girl band?

When you said tired of it? Yes, was the first time in this interview where you like paused and didn't totally say what you were going to say.

I think, well, I think what else do you call it? Feeling like people don't take you seriously because you're a woman, Feeling like people are even after you know, ten years of playing my ass off as a signed musician, not just playing my ass off as a kid. Men still not believing that I know how to fucking play my instrument and thinking that I'm miming, or people seeing me make faces and saying that it's put on or that it's grotesque. And when men make those faces, they're in it, they're like feeling it.

I'm just glad this is an audio medium. No one needs to see my face. I may ask a question. I disagree, no one needs. Everyone makes.

You know, and that it means that you're feeling it, And you know what, We're on a spinning rocket, a vast universe. We should be able to feel things if we want to, if it's not hurting anyone else. My face isn't hurting people, and you know what, if it is, turn off the channel.

I will say, the music you have made while making that face has produced so much joy in my life.

Thank you, Sam, thank you, You're welcome. Thank you well, Like you know, I appreciate that. I appreciate you saying that because I and that's what I meant by like it's more multifaceted, the whole all of it. Being a woman in the industry can be really trying sometimes and sometimes I feel like we're taking two steps forward and three steps back. I'd like to think that we're making strides. I'd like to think that I hopefully can give other women, you know, strength and in knowing that, like, it's really important to like be vocal about this stuff and not take shit from journalists when they ask you inappropriate questions.

Well, before we go, let's take a step forward, okay, and celebrate a song on this last record of yours. Okay, because Women in Music Part three it came out in the summer of twenty twenty.

YEP.

It's very very tailored to the pandemic, probably for better or worse, but no matter what, I remember feeling like a balm at the time. And two years later we had your sister Alana on Yes, and I thought I'd ask you a version of the same thing I asked her. Okay, as we get to the end of this episode, but first, why don't we take a listen to that great this record Women in Music Part Three? You said we made this record to be played live. That was our mission statement for the whole album. What song from there are you most excited to play?

Selfishly, It's kind of basic because it's like one of the singles. But the last couple shows that we've done, We've played a couple shows and we opened the show with the steps and the energy of just hearing three snare hits like Brah Brah Brah. It reminded me of why I love doing this. I remember looking at my sister thinking about those like life moments where you're looking around and you're like, how the fuck did we get here? Hearing those three snare hits it's so simple, and watching my middle sister play the drums, we were all kind of like looking at each other, asking each other like, how the fuck did we fucking get here? Our life could have taken so many different turns. Danielle could have just kept going on and being a Tory musician, as he could have gone on and done. You know, she was at UCLA, she could have done whatever the fuck she wanted. I was kind of confused. I didn't know what I was. I was a nanny, I was doing comcast jingles. Who would have known? And it really is not lost on me. I mean we say that sentence every show. We're like, damn, I can't believe it. It's unbelievable.

I think when you really think about it, three Jews from the Valley at her sisters playing rock music in twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, and the height of edim not the It wasn't necessarily like yeah, I can see it, like I can see that happening and you know, being able to continue to make music and tour, and it's not lost on us. That is, it is an unlikely scenario, like we zigged and we zagged, and I can sort of trace it back to a couple instances where I'm like, oh, that was really pivotal and we got here somehow, we were riding the wave. We didn't know what the fuck we were doing. I feel like we still, I mean, we're just like we just want to make the best music possible and put on the best shows possible and you know, hopefully people enjoy it. And I think all three of us want to continue to do this for as long as people will have us. And I think, you know, we all have ambitions to do other fun things, like Alana is an incredible actress. She's so good in liquorice pizza, And it was a very proud sister moment I think for Danelle and I seeing her on screen like that and also came out of nowhere. And so I think we were just me and Danelle were just like whoa Like our sister is an acting force to be reckoned with. And I think Dina too. I think that Danielle is like an incredible producer, like not just an incredible musician, but like she really understands sonics in a way that I think a lot of producers don't really get. In her references. I mean, Danielle is like an encyclopedia. She's Encyclopedia Britannica Music Edition, like get that girl on like musical Jeopardy, or like don't forget the lyrics, or like beat Shizam. Like she's she has a vast knowledge of instrumentation and sonics and melanie and just like she comes up with shit where I'm like, it feels like it's celestial, like it comes from a different place. And you know, as long as the people in the movies and the talkies will have me, I will be waiting in the wings like tap me and coach I will. I will be there as long as they'll have me. But at the end of the day, I think my sisters and I truly love being able to see the world together and play music.

Well with that, she chose the steps okay for us here though, Yes, what song on the record do you hold closest to your heart?

You know what I think? And maybe this is because we're coming off of the Aras tour and I got a lot of people saying, like, why didn't you play Los Angeles at so far? I think Los Angeles having just finished tour and like seeing the world and like, you know, I love, I really love the city that I'm from.

This is Los Angeles from the album Women and Music Part three.

Los Angeles Me and maybe I just went out from it. I loft on my shift of helping with your defense. No, I can't disminse. It's kid hometown.

Man.

This got back from the little fucking stuff crying. The guy at the corner shock gave me the line of smile. I know, Hewitt Shack, but that is a man. Oh these days, these days, I can't these days, I can't say no visions.

All right.

Day these days, these days, these days days.

Why that song?

Well, there's a couple of things I think. Like I said, I think a lot of people were like, why don't you like, that's such an opportunity to like play Los Angeles, like in your hometown for six nights. And also it's the first song on the record. It's the opener, and talk about those snare hits. That drum opening is just so good and the groove of that song I love, and you know it talks about like, you know, these parts of the valley that I you know, venturable of art, like typical, like you know, free falling, I'll love Tom Petty. It's also just a really fun baseline to play live. Yeah, I think that I do have. I mean, we were just talking about how like all I wanted to do is get the fuck out of LA, especially in college, and now I'm like, why did I I love LA and all these grand plans to leave. I know, I really wanted to get the fuck out of here. And now that i'm you know, I think in my thirties, I think I'm like, no, like, I really love my city, all the nooks and the crannies, and there's always something happening, and all my friends live here, like my family is here. You know, I love it here. Granted this Los Angeles isn't necessarily talking about is kind of talking about what we're saying, which is like how do I defend it?

Sometimes it's a lonely plus, it can.

Be a lonely place, but at this juncture of my life, I love living here.

You know. I was thinking when we played that clip from your sister, that refrain she had about like, holy shit, I can't believe it turned out like this, Yes for you again to say three Jewish women making.

Rock music in twenty thirteen. Again like everywhere we went, it was like every headliner at every festival was like a DJ or an electronic emand.

And in that improbable situation, yeah, that we have been trying to trace and PenPoint and understand. Doesn't it all really come back to you age eight or nine, your dad pulling out a VHS tape, a stop making sense, putting on the TV and you sit there going what going?

The want to be that I It also came out of Danielle completely surpassing me as a guitar player at age five, at age five, just really making me what my father calls DEPRESSEDI I was like, what I mean? I what not want? Like Charlie Brown, like when he's sad, like with the cloud raining I wasn't really allowed to watch the Peanuts, so like this is I'm kind of grasping its straws here, but like it was not the whole thing, like I think, so okay. So his line of thinking was if guitar has six strings and bass has four strings, it's gotta be easier. Not true, very much, not the case. But you know, my dad was a drummer, and I think that he grew up in bands and like so I think he was just like, well, I have a kid who's like really good at guitar, like maybe my older daughter would be into bass. And I think when my dad came to me and was like, you know, maybe you wann't try playing the bass, I was like, nobody sounds like he's got a deep voice.

You know, it's very.

Yes, that's what my dad sounds like. He's very very funny. My father is you know, English is a second language, so sometimes he can't really find the words, so he has to show me visually. And I think he tried with words and I said, I was like, like, what girl plays bass? Literally, so I was like nine. Like the bands that were popular at that point, it was like all grunge, and I think no doubt had like just come out with Tragic Kingdom or something, and I was like, girls can sing rock music, but the person in her band is a guy. I was like, boys play bass, and my dad, to his credit, was like, I know a bass player. That's a girl. That's a badass. And we went to there was a video store on Ventura Boulevard and Laura Kingon and it was like a used It wasn't Blockbuster, it was like a mom and pop video store. I went there, picked up saw Making Sense and my dad popped it in and I saw Tina Weymouth and in like immediately I was like, first of all, she looks like Princess Peach, so I am very much in. I was like, this girl is a princess. And she was having well, they were all having the best time. But it was the first time where I had been I could visualize. I could be like, Oh, she's playing the fuck out of this bass, laying it down. She is the literal foundation of this band, and like the guys looking at her and being like like, yeah, she's a fucking badass. I was like, that's what I want. I want to be that. And then as a girl where I found out that, like, you know, she was in Tom Tom Club and I was like, damn, and she like she's her own band and like she sings and like she writes songs. I was like, that's the one.

When don't we watch this for a second. This is the track Slippery People by the Talking Heads from the film Stop Making Sense, directed by the late Jonathan.

Demy and produced by Gary Getzman.

Liquors Pizza There.

You know, I.

Could watch this forever, like I don't want you to stop it.

Well, we don't have to stop it.

It's so good. But like, look at how much fucking fun she's having.

When you see that, Like when we watch that just now. Yeah, the film's gonna be re released, yes soon, yes, which I like, I can't wait to see it again. Are you glad your dad asked you to switch?

Yes? I mean it wasn't even that he asked me to switch. It was just that he was like, there's this whole other component to music, not everything is guitar and drums, because so to my knowledge, the foundation of a band is a guitar and a drum because my mom played guitar and my dad played drums, and so to me it was like, if I was playing something different, I wasn't included in the club. I think that was initially why I was so sad, because my dad was like, that was DEPRESSEDI and bass isn't really the thing that pops out a que when you're looking at a band, right, it's the guitar player, and it's the drummer, Like to an eight year old, like when I would see no doubt it was Gwen dancing with her. Guitar player was like in the forefront and Gwen obviously, and like everyone knows like the lead guitarist of every like big rock band, it's harder to remember the name of the bass player. That's not lost on me. I'm doing everything in my power to change that. And this is where we really get into therapy. You know, the bass player typically is not the person that everyone kind of gives their attention to in a band, even though we are the foundation. We lay the foundation so that the lead guitarist can do their thing and really let their freak flag fly. But I will say I think that a lot of bass players are changing that, one of them being Thundercut. Maybe I'll go on record, maybe the best bass player of all time lucky enough to call him a friend, but he inspires me in that he and like you know, people like Jocopastoris like made the bass a solo instrument because for so long it wasn't.

This is the therapy part that Well, the therapy.

Part is just like I like the idea of the bass being a solo instrument because I do think that it's such a magical instrument. And I think that's probably why I was so also so against it as a kid, was because I wanted to be the center of attention and the bass is not the center of attention. Now as I'm older, I can see that and recognize that. So that's the therapy part is I just really wanted to be at the forefront. Now I like being the foundation and I like being able to, you know, noodle and play around with melodies as a bass player.

Well, if it's any consolation, you have been the center of the of your attention in this podcast.

Thank you.

If you want next time around, you can ask the questions.

Don't threaten me with a good time, Sam.

I love that you're always up for a good time.

Thank you.

Wait, hold on, isn't that your motto for people? Who don't know. Tell folks what your motto is.

People that say yes, have adventures. People that say no, play it safe, people that say maybe, spend their whole life saying maybe think of Hamlet to be or not to be well.

I thank you, thank you for saying yes to coming on this show.

Hey, yes, I say yes. Ste him, It's been a pleasure anytime. Take it on the road.

There's a road show, A road show beautiful and that's our show. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us five stars on Spotify, Apple, wherever you do your listening. I want to give a special thanks this week to Tory Cobb, Narrative PR, Netflix, and of course our guests today sd Hyam. To learn more about her music and all the films discussed in this talk, visit our website at talkasypod dot com. You can also find that link in the description of this episode For more conversations like this one. I'd recommend our talks with Ludwig Gornsen, Alana Hyam, David Byrne, Arlo Parks, Lord Questlove, and Abby Jacobson. To hear those and more Pushkin podcasts. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen. Talk Easy is produced by Caroline Reebok. Our executive producer is Chinick sa Brava. Our associate producer is Caitlin Dryden. Our research and production system is Paul Suarez. Today's talk was edited by Lindsay Ellis and mixed by Andrew Vastola. Our assistant editors are Clarice Gavara and c J. Mitchell. Our music is by Dylan Peck. Our illustrations are by Christia Chenoi. Photographs today are by Julius Chu. Video and graphics by Ian Chang, Derek gamberzak Ian Jones and Ethan Seneca. I just want to thank our team at Pushkin Industries, Justin Richmond, Julia Barton, John Schnars, Kerrie Brody, David Glover, Heather fe and Eric Sandler, Jorna McMillan, Isabella Narveaz, Kira Posy, Paramachado, Maya Canning, Jason Gambrel, Justine lank Ley, tal Malade, Malcolm Gladwell and Jacob Weisberg. I'm San Fragoso, thank you for listening to another episode of Talk Easy. I'll see you back here next week. With fellow podcast host Sam Sanders. Until then, stay safe and so long.

MM

Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso

Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso is a weekly series of intimate conversations with artists, activists, and 
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