For our annual pre-Holiday-Special-holiday-episode-about-a-holiday-toy we are jumping into one of the greatest games of all time, Trivial Pursuit (and we’re not just saying that because there’s an SYSK edition).
Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and Jerry's here too. We're just rolling the dice and moving the pies. Yeah, because I mean it was like a pie piece. Yeah. I can't think of anything else you call them. I think some people call them wedges, but they're clearly sickos. Yeah.
Oh, I think they're officially wedges.
Well, I've seen the guys who invented the game.
So did you watch that video?
Yeah?
Oh boy.
We should probably tell everybody what we're talking about. First, this is Stuff you should Know. Second, we're talking about Trivial Pursuit. Arguably one of the greatest board games ever created. And we're not just saying that because Stuff you Should Know has its own Trivial Pursuit edition. It's because it legitimately is such a great game.
Yeah. I played this game a lot when I was a kid. It was a family favorite. My mom really really loved it. We were often a team together, my mom and I, so it's kind of one of my good childhood memories with her.
I'll bet Yeah, looking at the board and all like pictures of the board and some of the question cards and all that. Like, I was just overwhelmed with nostalgic because it was a huge thing in my family too, playing Trivial Pursuit.
Boomer City, Baby.
I love that game.
Yeah, for sure, as it turns out, for sure.
And what's funny is in doctrineeded us into everything that Boomer's like. Like it was a really like huge cultural transfer from one generation to the other in that way.
Yeah, I mean I was a twelve year old who learned about gun smoke and Richard Nixon through playing Trivial Pursuit.
Yeah yeah, and Spiro Agnew from Mad Magazine. Oh yeah, So we should probably start at the start, and that actually goes long before Trivial Pursuit was created, but not as far back as you would think. Like in the United States, we did a live episode on game shows that was really cool, and we talked about this some but back as far back to the thirties on the radio and then later on TV, quiz shows were like all the rage and America's had like fascinations with trivia and then got bored with it and then came and found it again and then got bored with it. And back in the thirties that was one of the peaks where everybody was super into it.
Yeah, quiz shows were for sure big. I think you know, Lvia helped us with this. And I always kind of wondered about the word trivial because I thought that was a pretty genius And we'll get to the name change, because initially this was called trivia pursuit, and a lot of people called it trivia pursuit. But the change to trivial, I don't know, that was just something that made it a little cheeky.
Maybe yeah, because you're not just talking about trivia, you're also poking fun at your own game, Like you're putting all this effort into something that doesn't really matter in the end.
Yeah, I guess so. But I thought it mattered when I was a kid. I was Now that i'm adult, I'm like, trivia Pursuit's kind of a fun name. When I was a kid, I was like, this is not trivia. These are facts and figures, right, it's weird.
Oh I took it seriously too. Yeah, for sure, I love trivial pursuit too, but it was definitely in the vein of the people who invented this thing to kind of poke fun at themselves and even at you, the player for playing it.
Yeah, for sure. So pub quizzes were big in England before they were a big deal in the United States, where we call it just par trivia, I guess, but they kind of hit it big earlier on. So the world of trivia was gaining steam through the nineteen sixties. I think there was a Columbia student named Edwin Goodgold who I think he wrote a book, right, He and another.
Guy named Dan Karlinski wrote a book simply called Trivia. Yeah, but he's credited as one of like the early people to spread the whole concept of being quizzed about inconsequential usually pop culture questions to just show like how much you knew about your childhood and that Edwin Goodgold thing. Two things about him. He went on to become the manager of Shanna Nah really yeah, oh wow, And he wrote in Columbia University's I guess their newspaper, he was one of their writers. He wrote that this is that these trivia games that are like the hot new thing on campus are played by young adults who, on the one hand, realize they have misspent their youth, yet on the other hand, do not want to let go of it. And that was the whole idea. It was about all the stuff that you learned in your childhood from reading Superman comic books and listening to like gangster or seen like gangster TV shows, just from being a kid. That's what the whole thing was based on. And that kind of became a tradition too that it was largely stuff in the past. A lot of it was pop culture.
Yeah, exactly, and that was the mid sixties. The mid seventies is when the pub quizzes really took off in England. That didn't start in the US untill really after Trivial Pursuit. There was a time even where the TV show Jeopardy was not on the air because like you said, there was just a waxing and waning on interest in trivia. But Jeopardy came back in eighty four and all of a sudden, you know, trivia started to be important in the United States again.
Yeah, and I didn't see it anywhere, but I would put some serious money on the idea that Trivial Pursuits success revived Jeopardy.
Yeah, I bet it did, because it was.
A huge, huge deal as we'll see, yeah, for sure, But the whole thing starts all the way back in nineteen seventy nine, in December of nineteen seventy nine, appropriately because Trivial Pursuit and Christmas for its first few years of being out, were synonymous with one another. Essentially, maybe synonymous isn't the right word, but they were. It was a big deal around Christmas time when it first came out.
About that, Yeah, and this is our pick. We kind of had a hard time deciding this year, but actually not really. It was a toss up, but we always do like a Christmas you know, legendary Christmas gifts in pop culture history kind of episode, And this year we went with Trivial Pursuit because it was a big you know, they as you'll see that. You know, rolling out a board game in October and November is a pretty smart move for sure.
And these two guys, there are two Canadians. I read an article about them that was contemporary to them in the Toronto Star. It said that they come off like the two original Hosers. Yeah, even bigger Hosers than Bob and Doug Mackenzie is what they were saying.
Yeah, there were a couple of hockey dudes, just hockey beer drinking, Canadian, good old fashioned Canadian hockey playing. They're at least hockey watching. I bet they played too. They all played.
Yeah, I think they definitely did. They certainly covered it. One of them, Scott Abbott, was a sports reporter for the Canadian Press who I think his focus was on hockey. The other guy was Chris Haney. He was a photo editor at the Montreal Gazette. So these are a couple of late seventies early eighties journalist dudes who wear mustaches and drink beer during their interviews on the news and smoke like yeah, and smoke during them too, like this would These were the guys who invented trivial pursuit.
Yeah. Hani was a high school dropout. Abbott did have a master's degree in journalism from the University of Tennessee, and he was living with Haney and his wife Sarah in their apartment in Montreal at the time. And as the legend goes, they're hanging out one day it was kind of rainy, they were like, hey, let's play some scrabble. They realized they didn't have some scrabble, and then I saw a couple of different versions. It kind of inconsequential, like whether or not he just dropped everything and went out and bought a scrabble or whether just on his next shopping trip he did. But Hani would buy a scrabble game, bring it back to play and was like, you know what, I bought like six of these things over the years because I just keep losing number leaving behind or learning them out or something, and like what a racket, Like we should get into the gaming business.
Yeah, that's how I was born. They just realized how how many times he bought a scrabble game, and they were like, we should we could do that.
We should say.
Yeah, these guys, that was the kind of thing that they would talk about doing, is making a game because they realized that you could that other people have made money off of it.
Yeah.
Up to this point, their big claim to fame in their circle was having carried out a pyramid scheme with a chain letter that was actually successful in that they made money off of it and they never got caught for it either. So up to this point, so these were that was these this kind of these kind of guys right, And this particular idea though, kind of started to take shape really really quickly. I think it was Chris Abber Scott Abbott who was like, well, how about something with trivia. And remember, at the time, like trivia was not hot item, and also, as we'll see, board games were not a high item. So these were like two bad ideas that these guys decided to put together and accidentally became a success, or not accidentally it ended up becoming a success. But it was like they figured it out really quickly, didn't they.
Some might say suspiciously quickly. We'll get to that later. But as their story goes at about forty five minutes time, and they're really specific about that. I'd never saw anywhere an hour. They always said forty five minutes. They got, you know, the game together, They got some construction paper, they started sketching things out. They based the design of the circular board on a ship's wheel with six spokes that corresponded to categories of geography, entertainment, sports and leisure, science and nature, arts and literature, and history. And you would roll the die. You would move in any direction you wanted, as long as it's only one direction. You get this little circular pie crust with six available pie slots, right wedges not wedges. And the idea is you go around and you answer questions in the corresponding categories, and when you answer them on the center of each spoke or I guess the landing point of each spoke, you would get to put in a pie piece. Once you have all those pie pieces in, you roll your way to the center. Must have an exact role, and then the other teams decide which category of question they want to randomly ask you and if you miss you if you make it, you win the game. If you miss it, you got to roll back out and then answer questions eventually roll back in.
Yes, well put. I am not one for boasting typically, but I will say that I once confirmed one a game doing all the things you just said in twenty minutes.
The wow by yourself?
No no, no, not by myself. It's playing a dude at work at the liquor store.
No no, no, I mean, were you on a team by yourself?
No? Oh no, just me, Okay, that's what.
I was asking, not literally playing boy, Josh. I'll never mind.
I mean, I guess if you were really honest you could play by yourself.
You know, he gets it around recards. I did that for a little while.
That's not honest. I'm saying you could roll, you could move, you could ask yourself questions, answer them and yeah, got it wrong.
Yeah, just you could talk in different voices. No, good, try chuck right, great.
You kind of ruined my twenty minute anecdote.
Frankly, no, I want to dwell back on that, because twenty minutes. I mean, I played a lot of trivial pursuit, and I don't feel like we ever got through a game in less than that standard forty five minutes. It took to an a minute.
Yeah, yeah, it took It took a It could take a while, especially if like they were just had a lot of people who yeah, didn't didn't know trivia. But yeah, it would usually take yeah, forty five minutes an hour, depending on how fast everybody was moving. Usually it took longer because the whole point was almost every question and answer would like generate a quick conversation or usually a short conversation, sometimes longer, yeah, exactly, And.
Most of the times it was boomer parents like waxing philosophic about how great their.
Stuff was right exactly to that too. But that was the point, and that's one of the reasons it became so popular, is like it was really easy to have a party centered on trivial pursuit.
Yeah, so I don't think we mentioned you could you could have teams. I did sort of allude to that, but you could have I mean, you could probably have as many people as you want on a team, but I think they suggested max of four, meaning a max of twenty four players, and anything more than that would get at unwieldy. But I feel like we were and my family wasn't big. It was usually we were in pairs.
Yeah, that was typically how it was done, so you could argue and be mad at one another one the other one insisted on the wrong answer.
Yeah, And as a kid, I do also remember all of my family trying to nab me because I was the only one who really knew much about sport.
Yeah. That was always my weak one too, and that was always the one that would get picked for me if I ever made it to the middle.
What was your category? Like, if you could pick your own final category, what would it be?
It was usually history or entertainment.
Yeah, I would say, I would say sports and leisure or entertainment for me, Yeah, definitely not geography.
Still, yeah, my worst was definitely sports and leisure, and I would yeah, geography was probably second.
That's because they didn't have masths.
Right, only in the British version.
So I mentioned the name change. That was Sarah, who was Hani's wife, Chris Haney's wife. Sarah is the one that said now change it to trivial instead of trivia. I think it was a pretty great switch. And I think that's a pretty good intro.
Oh okay, well if that's the end of the intro, then Chuck, I think we have to put an ad break in here.
Yeah, let's move along to Act two.
Right after this, so Hani and Abbott like they were like, we're gonna do this, and they came upon a great idea that they would visit a toy industry convention, like the big one in Canada. I think it was the Canadian Toy Manufacturer's Trade Show. I can't remember what's called. I looked it up and couldn't find anything on it. But they went. Remember they were journalists, so they went as reporters as if they were on an assignment to do a story on the toy industry, specifically the board game industry. So they used that cover to pick the brains of a bunch of people who we're in the board game industry and one of the well, they found out a couple of things very quickly. They found out that the board game industry was in a slump. They also found out that is a very very closed industry where if you're a newcomer with an idea, just hit the bricks like they're not going to listen to you. That's not how the board game industry works. And they figured this out. So they decided that from going to this conference they were going to have to do this themself. If they wanted to get this game out there, they were going to have to They couldn't just sell the idea. They had to make the game first. And that's what they said about doing.
Yeah, they were like, we did a pyramid scheme. We're good at selling things that don't exist. So they enlisted a little bit of help. They got Chris's brother, John Haney on the team, and then a guy named Ed Werner who was a friend who's a corporate attorney, and they formed the horn Abbot Company. Hani's sickname was the Horn, and Abbot in this case with one tee was just a variation on Abbot's two teed name. And they started selling equity to raise a little money through friends and family. So they sold forty shares at one thousand dollars each to thirty two friends and family members. And boy, you want to talk about an investment that paid off for sure? Wow? Can you imagine it'd be like one of the early Apple stock or Google stock, right, you know.
Very similar to that, not quite as lucrative, but still pretty well. The people who bought several shares each were set for life basically after the game hit. Oh yeah, but at the time Chris Haney told his mom she shouldn't invest. Yeah, and this is his idea, his business venture. That's how much he paged in it, I guess. But there's a guy named Michael Worstlin, and so this iconic, really elegant design for the package, the board itself, cards, all that stuff. It was Michael Worstlin's work. He was eighteen at the time.
That's just amazing.
And he didn't get a dime front for it. He did this work for five shares of stock in the company. Of equity and yeah, it was very smart, as we'll see.
Yeah, so they managed to raise forty grand. They got a seventy five thousand dollars line of credit from a bank, and that was enough dough to start getting this game together in earnest. The one thing they didn't have they had design, They had it kind of all ready to go. They needed six thousand questions and so I assume with some of that, what is that like close to one hundred and twenty grand. They went to Spain in nineteen eighty one and they said, we're going to go drink beer on the beach and write questions. We're going to pack a bunch of you know, dictionaries and encyclopedias and reference books and newspapers, and we're going to go out there. We're going to write it for the American audience. Some of this stuff's going to be pretty obscure stuff. Some is going to be you know, some are going to be a little easier. They wanted to kind of give it a little bit of variety, and finally, in November eighty one, registered Trivial Pursuit as a trademark and then launched the Genus not Genius edition that same month is when that came out.
Yeah, we should explain, because I've never understood it until I started researching this. It's called genus because genus, you know, like in taxonomy, genus is above species. So yeah, there's a bunch of different variations of this thing. Another way to interpret another definition of it. It's general, it's not specific, and so the questions in here were not They were very general. You didn't have to be like a specialist in anything to play trivial pursuit, and if you were, you're kind of handicapped because there was a bunch of other questions that had nothing to do with your specialist or special Yes, specialist, specialism, what's the word I'm looking for? Specialty?
You go, I think or something behind you with the giant y like dancing up and down.
I think there's somebody behind me with a hammer.
Oh no, no, no, no. So toy Fair people were not too interested at first, at least they got passed on from the bigs Parker Brothers and Milton Bradley at the time, saying this is a really expensive game to produce, and I mean that's something we learned a lot about and doing this stuff you should know version is like, cost of production is obviously a big deal. I just never we were like, you know what if those pieces were like copper or something, and they're like, uh no, they're gonna be punch out cardboard. But you got you guys are sweet.
Yeah. We were like, well what about plastic. They're like we keep guessing.
Yeah, you know Monopoly has all those solid lead figurines, and they're like no, no, no, no, no no no.
That's brain damage if you play too much.
Not to knock the team we worked with, because they werenating the game turned out great. It's just it's just how you make a game to make money.
Yeah, we said it before and we'll say it again. Like they were the greatest bunch of people that I've ever worked with as a group. Like, as a group, they were as good as it comes. It was amazing.
Yeah, it was pro top to bottom enthusiasm, just a sheer pleasure. Yeah all right, so enough of that kissing up. They got about eleven hundred games made, sold them to local retailers, regional Canadian retailers, basically right before Christmas, and then this distributor of games Cheaptain products very smartly were like, hey, we'll put this thing together. My daughter, supposedly the vice president's daughter, really really loved the game when she went away for a weekend and played it a lot, and he's it ended up being a great decision for them as well.
So yeah, a hugely consequential And this was Christmas nineteen eighty one, So this is the first Christmas that Trivial Pursuit comes out and makes a big splash because they sold out of those eleven hundred games so quickly that by the time that end of the by the time the next Christmas rolled around, they'd already sold one hundred thousand copies in Canada. And that's a lot. And it turns out it's even more than you think it is, because at the time a board game to be a best seller sold about ten thousand copies. So this little independent yeah, a very independent game created by a couple of outsiders, sold ten times more than you would expect it to sell as a best seller in this first year.
Yeah, it was incredible. They were making everything in Canada Canada at the time except for the Dice, thirty five hundred games a day, but they still couldn't keep up with the pace in nineteen eighty three. Finally, a US company called Celcho and Richter I guess or writer, writer, yeah, writer, they licensed that game. They had real marketing money. Finally, they sold one point three million games nineteen eighty three with that company. And one thing we haven't mentioned is this game was about double the cost of what a board game was at the time, twenty five to forty bucks depending on where you went. That's up to ninety dollars today.
And so I saw one hundred and twenty five today.
Oh really?
Yeah? I put forty dollars in for nineteen eighty three in west Egg and it said one hundred and twenty five.
It told me ninety.
Oh god, oh no, inflation calculations are no in question.
Oh god, it must be having the worst thing that's ever happened our beloved West Egg. Well, either way, let's settle at one ten. Okay, great, But either way, that was about double the cost of a board game. So it was no small thing to plunk down that kind of money on this big, heavy, voluminous, voluminous game.
Voluptuous too, So you said heavy. Each game package weighs six pounds, because they they really pulled out the stops in their materials and like, yeah it was cardboard, and yeah it was plastic, but it was really really well made, well manufactured, well designed cardboard and plastic put together. And again that just the look of it had such an elegant look. It just didn't. It did not look like other board games at the time. It's like Sorry or Trouble or something like that, you know, whereas like wacky. And there was like a cartoon explosion or something like that, a bunch of kids rolling dice on there, and that was a big deal too. There was no kid, no person anywhere on the box. The only person who showed up was the poet, the English poet Alexander Pope, who who's quote what mighty contests derived from trivial things was on the box. So this whole thing is so highbrow that it just doesn't even make sense. And yet that made people want it all the more. It was a brand new thing. It was a revival of board games, is what trivial Pursuit was when it came out.
Yeah, and it was, I mean it said for adults on the box, which turned out to be a stroke of genius because I even remember I read an article in Slate that kind of drove this home. But I even remember kind of agreeing with what Slate was saying, which was like as a kid in the eighties, especially for kids in the eighties who had like narcissistic parents who didn't show them much attention, it was if you could play trivial pursuit and hang, it was a chance to sit at the adult table for a minute. Yeah, and to like interact with your parents for an hour a day.
Yeah, and maybe make some extra allowance in the bargain. Yeah, hey, you throw a little money on it. You never know exactly. So this was Christmas nineteen eighty three that it blew up in the United States, and like when it blew up in the US, it like it really just changed everything. Like you said, that first year they sold one point three million games, they sold twenty million the next year in nineteen eighty f and by January of nineteen eighty four, right after it started to come out in the United States, the New York Times reported that people in New York were trading cocktail parties for trivial Pursuit parties. And I was thinking about it, yeah, right, yeah, I don't think there's anything more insufferable than the New York Times reporting on what cool New Yorkers are doing right now right. This was a great example of that eighties version two.
Yeah, for sure, they had a great marketing early on with this new company that was a marketing consultant they hire named Linda Pizzano, who would send these games out to celebrities who were featured in questions in the game, and she got letters back from some of them and she would publish those. She got letters from Pat Boone, Gregory Peck, and James Mason.
So the trio.
Yeah, the boomers are just going nuts. And then to really drive it home, there was a Time magazine report that the cast of The Big Chill, the most boomer movie of all boomers movies of all time, were unwinding between scenes, enjoying trivial pursuit and looking back at the nostalgia of their younger days. And that's it was. That was peak boomer nostalgia, trivial pursuit reporting.
Yeah, I've never seen that movie, but I do know it's good that one of the characters lets her husband, I guess, impregnate serve as like a surrogate sperm donor. To her friend.
Yeah.
The only reason I know that is because there was a great Saturday Night Lives get about it really Yeah, and I guess did they show the wife who was like hanging out downstairs in the movie while they went upstairs or something like that. Yeah, So in the Satura Night Live one, like she's just sitting there like reflecting, like drinking tea and like thinking about how great and just beautiful. This is the sound coming from upstairs. They're like really getting into it, and she's getting more and more concerned than more.
I remember that.
Yeah, it was I think it was Jan Hooks who was like the yeah coming downstairs. That was a great sketch.
Oh that's funny. Well, that movie was very big in my house. In that soundtrack, I mean, I joke about it now, but that's literally the thing that introduced me to Motown. Oh yeah as a kid, Yeah, listening to I was twelve years old or whatever. It was listening to Aretha Franklin and the Four Tops and you know everyone else. Jeremiah was a Bullfrog, which wasn't Motown. But if you want to hear a more in depth conversation about that, you can listen to the movie Crush episode featuring the wonderful and charming Janey had d Tompkins.
Oh nice, that was her pick, Hunt, that was her pick. Nice.
Good movie though, but now it suffers from anti boomeritis.
Oh okay, so I should wait ten years to see it.
How do you feel about boomers right now?
I'll wait ten years to say.
Okay, all right, So nineteen eighty four, well, I guess we should mention that book. In nineteen eighty three, a guy named Robert J. Heller wrote a book called How to Win at Trivial Pursuit. Like that's how big it got. I think, like ninety six trivia games trying to cash in on trivial pursuits success, and people writing books like how to Win at Trivial Pursuit, in which Robert J. Heller said, why don't you just memorize all six thousand cards?
That became kind of an urban legend, like your cousin's friend memorized. Also really thousand questions?
Yeah, that's funny.
Yeah. And there were some other cute or interesting anecdotes I guess that kind of came out around the time. One was Ronald Reagan was reported on having played the game while he was waiting for the election results in nineteen eighty four, and during the game he got two questions about himself, and you can relax, he got them correct, both of them.
Well, that's the only thing Reagan I can do, is the one word.
One of the one of the facts I saw bandied about in some of the reporting that was a great Reagan by the way, was that either Ronald Reagan signed Clark Gable's discharge papers from the army or Clark Gable signed robins. It depends on who you ask, Yes.
What was one of them authorized to do so? Or are they just like, come over here, buddy, sign this thing.
No, No, like they just happened to be like that was just happened to be the luck of the draw as far as the arrangement went.
Oh, like they bore witness or something.
No. I think like, as let's say it was Clark Gable who signed them, he would have maybe been like a higher up to Ronald Reagan, because Ronald Reagan was getting out. It happened to be Clark Gable rather than Colonel Joe Schmoe.
Who was glad I complicated that very clean and cool story. Another fun little trivial factoid, And yes, I'm saying factoid was that q E two Queen Elizabeth I hosted and the first NERD Cruise. It sounds like because she hosted an eight day trivial pursuit tournament crews in I guess eighty five.
And so at each Christmas nineteen eighty three, it was like you could not find that thing. Yeah, in nineteen eighty four, same same deal, Like it was really hard to find. But this time Selchow and writer had like learned their lesson and we're like keeping up with supply a lot better than they were at the very beginning of this whole thing. And so at the at the peak of this, I think it really peaked in eighty four, but that certainly continued on in the nineteen eighty five. Oh yeah, and the spring of nineteen eighty five, fifteen percent of households in America had a trivial pursuit game in their house. I saw at some point it was twenty percent, one in five.
Yeah, I think they're at about eighty million to date game.
Oh, I believe that totally.
That's just a staggering amount of game. I mean, my mom still you talked about how well it was made. My mom still has our the og from whatever forty eight years ago.
Yeah, I'm sure it's just a little bit frayed in, like yep, the parts were it folded and the rest of it's just fine.
No, you can still read Richard Nixon on a third of those cards.
Nice, there's a little like cocaine in the little folds and like tequila stains on some of the in the spots.
Oh not in my family, pal, So Trivial Pursuit is selling Gangbusters. Abbott and Haney are rich dudes and also weirdly kind of celebrities. They were not shy. They love to be on TV and to do interviews. They were in TV commercials, They were pitchmen for other brands like Amex and Diet Coke, and they would put that Trivial Pursuit branding on anything they thought they could make money of. And like you mentioned, those original investors did really, really well. There was an entertainment writer at the Toronto Globe and Mail named Susan Ferrier McKay who took out a bank loan to buy ten shares early on, and in nineteen eighty four she bought a house and then she retired not too long after that.
Yeah, and Worstlin, the guy the eighteen year olds who did all the art, he founded a company called Worstlin Group All one word that became pretty successful marketers in Toronto, and he used his money from his shares to start that, so it definitely paid off. And then yeah, like you said, the Heinies and Chris Abber or Scott Abbott were just mega rich from this. I mean, this game made hundreds of millions of dollars in the eighties, like eighties money. God knows what West Egg would convert that to, but there was a lot of money made off this, and you got to think back like these were just a couple of dudes who had an idea and went with it, although there were people who were like, yeah, that's questionable whether you had that idea, like you kind of referred to earlier. Right.
Yeah, there were two cases, at least like two notable court cases. One was a lawsuit in nineteen ninety four from a guy, an Australian named David Wall who said, hey, in nineteen seventy nine, this Chris Haney guy picked me and my buddy up when we were hitchhiking and we were in Nova, Scotia, and while we were driving around, I told him about this idea for the game, like really specifically, like my mom has pictures of the wheel that I drew and the pie pieces and everything. In the court were like, well where are those documents And he was like, I don't have those anymore. And they said we'll bring forward some witnesses and he was like, no one, No one's really coming forward. They moved, Yeah, they moved away, Hane said, or he said that. Hany later offered him shares, like, hey man, we're getting this game that you got told me the idea for going, and I'm going to offer to buy you shares. This is a real thing. He refused. Had he bought those shares, he would have ended up a rich person as well. But in court, Haney was like, I never met this guy, never picked him up. They awarded him initially, well not awarded him. He got zero dollars, but the judge ruled in Haney's favor and awarded them one point two million dollars in court costs, just after a thirteen year legal battle. But they reduced that to one million because they said, but you know what, your big corporate attorneys came in and sued two of his witnesses. So we're gonna knock off two hundred grand and just make it a million.
Yeah, I mean imagine being that guy. You're like, you owe me tens of millions of dollars and then ten years later you owe them a million dollars. Like, yeah, this is just some guy. He wasn't some like high flying jet setter who had a bunch of money. I don't know what happened to him.
But yeah, I mean he had a hard he didn't have the million bucks. I saw that. So they said they were looking to garnish his wages, and I was like, oh man, this just gets from bad to worse.
Yeah, but I mean, this is the one guy who said that, and like you said, he didn't come up with witnesses or any kind of supporting evidence. And yeah, it's just not clear what the deal was, whether he was just looking for a payday or if he did get ripped off. But as far as the court's concerned, he definitely did not get ripped off.
Yeah. What I was trying to find out was they you know, they said they sued to first. The judge said there was no witnesses. Then I find out that they had sued two of the witnesses, which they considered like, you know, witness intimidation or something. Sure, so I'm wondering if one of those witnesses they sued was like the friend that hitchhiked with them, And I'm just I couldn't find anything out. It's so hard to find out stuff about old court cases.
Well, if if it was like a David and Goliath thing where Goliath won, that would be very sad. Indeed, Yeah, what I imagine that. Yeah, we'll move on because this one's getting really sad. Uh. The other one is the story of a guy named Fred Elworth, And if you are into trivia, fred Worth is essentially your messiah. He is the original trivia dude who's been writing books on trivia, books like containing trivia for decades and decades. Now. I don't know if he's still a live but if he is, he's probably still going strong. And he apparently published a three volume Encyclopedia of trivia at some point, this is before Trivia Pursuit was launched, and he did something. You know how we've talked about map makers, like including like a fake town to basically protect their properties, see if somebody ripped them off.
Yeah, he did.
Something with trivia question. He included a trick question in his stuff.
He did, and that that well, it didn't bear fruit, but it played out in his favor. It was a question on Colombo the TV show with what's his name Peter Falk, Peter Falk, Almos said Robert Blake, I used to get those confused.
No, that was Barretta.
Yeah, he sees the one who murdered his wife in real life.
Yeah.
Yeah, anyway, Peter Falk did not murdered his wife as far as I know, but he he was Frank Colombo. And and the question it was, the answer was Philip Columbo, Like what was Columbo's real name? And you know, I don't know if anywhere else Philip Columbo had ever been printed, So it looked like pretty good proof to me. He sued for three hundred million bucks, claimed that close to seventeen hundred of the questions were his, and a judge threw it out and said, first of all, this game is a lot different than that book, and at which time Worth should have said, that's not what I'm saying, right, And then he said but you can't copyright facts. No case, which I officially feel bad for Worth because it seems clear to me that they took a lot of his questions.
Uh yeah, he probably. I mean they said that they used his book for creating these things. Like they didn't deny that at all, but yeah, I guess it was just their Their case was based on the idea that like the effects of fact, like this guy didn't it's not a creation of his own. Yes, he found it right, No, I get it. And I imagine Fred Worth probably thought that was like an iron proof defense, like.
Yeah, yeah, I got it.
These people in putting this question in there and it didn't work out. I'm sure he was astonished when that came along that ruling. But also, just before we move on, Chuck, I just want to tell all of our hardcore Colombo fan listeners to just stop your emails right now. We know for a fact that Frank is not, as far as Cannon goes, Colombo's first name. Yeah, canonically Colombo doesn't have a first name or else. His first name is lieutenant. So Frank Columbo just happened to show up in a couple of screenshots that the producers of the show originally never intended anybody to be able to zoom in on.
Boy, do you think there are any Colombo pet ants? Oh yeah, definitely listen to this.
Sure, yeah, we got all kinds. Takes all kinds, Chuck.
So the nineties are now upon us and these guys are are They said they feel like rock stars. Basically, they've got all kinds of money. Supposedly John Haney, the that was brought in early on. They were talking about finances and he said, we'll be great as long as we don't do anything stupid like invest in racehorses. So that's just what they did. Hani and Abbott invested in racehorses, but for Abbot paid off. He spent fifty grand on a yearly named Charlie Bailey that ended up winning about nine hundred thousand dollars in total purses over the years. Oh yeah, and lots of studding out for big money. And they both invested in kind of built from the ground up these two golf courses in Canada, and Abbot bought that. He was a big hockey guy, so he bought the Brampton Battalion at the time before moving them north and changing their name, and they are from the Ontario Hockey League, and I think he might still own them.
Oh yeah, I think so.
I mean this article I found was from the late twenty teens.
Oh yeah probably then.
Yeah, I don't see why he would have sold it.
Oh so they're now the Brampton Battalion. They were the North bab Battalion.
Right, no, no, no, and now they're in North Bay.
Okay, I always get North Bay and Brampton. Confused, I do too. So Olivia dug up a pretty interesting article written.
By who chuck a guy named Ron Rodriguez.
No, it's one Rodriguez.
Oh is it one?
Yeah? Okay, so mister Rodriguez is what we're going to call him from now. And because his name is really hard to say, it turns out he was a He wrote I think a daily quota of forty trivial pursuit questions a day, obviously, and only about half would get picked. And we kind of went through that too, because we helped out putting questions together for our version, and they've asked for hundreds and hundreds of them and you're like, okay, well we're done. They're like, okay, well we're going to use about a third of those, So we're gonna have to do this again a couple more times. And it was like, there weren't that many facts in all of the episodes of stuff you should know, you guys, But we pulled it out. But I can feel mister Rodriguez his pain.
Yeah, for sure. It was a lot of writing. He said that he is the dictionary of twentieth century world politics, pop culture magazines. As his story goes, when he needed Rambo questions, he watched all the Rambo movies two times to come up with the best questions. And you know, once you write them, they did. I think he had a partner. They had some researchers on the team and they would fact check and do corrections and tweaks and stuff like that.
Yeah, I should say we didn't. We weren't actually writing the questions. We were coming up with the source material for the question.
Yeah, from the podcast Huge Signa.
They're going, oh no, yeah, there's some writer. It has Bro's like, uh.
As far as the nitty gritty goes, questions have a maximum of forty five characters. They prefer two lines, even though there can be three. They just visually thought the two line questions looked better, so they tried to edit them down when possible.
Yeah, and then I think now, over the years there's been about three hundred editions published, and very early on they stayed fairly generalist. Although I mean, let me take that back. They went from Genus to silver screen edition, baby Boomers Edition, and I think a sports edition, but compared to some of the editions that they've come up with now, those are still pretty generalists. So another one was Disney. Disney was the first tie in that they had in nineteen eighty five, and that was still pretty general. It wasn't like Donald duck backs specifically, right. Weirdly, here's a piece of trivia for you. The second brand tie in that Trivial Pursuit released a game around was Fame. The TV show and movie Oh Wow, Like I'm going to Live Forever had its own Trivial Pursuit edition back in nineteen ninety three.
Was the first question, how long did the Fame people think they were going to live?
That's a great question.
I couldn't have been very as these editions weren't as big though, right, there's no way no.
And that slight article that you referred to the author makes a case. They were basically saying, I think the whole premise was trivial pursuit lost its way. And this is about ten years ago or something. And the premise or the thesis this author had was that it went from being general where basically anybody could come along and try their hand at it, to increasingly more specific, to where now you had to know everything there is to know about Harry Potter or everything there is to know about the Lord of the Rings or Friends or the Nightmare before Christmas or that kind of thing, and that it just it made it more and more narrow and narrowed the pool, so you have to have more and more additions to appeal as many people as possible, whereas if you just made more generalists versions of the game, then you were always going to appeal to the most people possible.
You know, some of those versions are definitely not my thing, but I'm not gonna say it lost its way. I disagreed with that guy, and like, if you want a Harry Potter edish and that's your jam, then like I love it. Sure. In fact, I wouldn't mind a Friends edition now that I'm thinking of it. I did today the Friends Edition I think would be kind of fun for me, or Seinfeld Edition because I know those pretty well. But I did today by the Greatest Hits Edition, which is mainly eighties and nineties and a lot of pop culture, and supposedly that's like a gen X feast. So I bought that today and hopefully I'll be getting it very soon.
That's awesome. I will be very disappointed if the Seinfeld edition doesn't have a question about who invaded Spain in the nine hundreds and the answers the moops right, it's got too, it has to.
Yeah, we could probably write a Seinfeld edition, you and I could probably.
They've come up with some other pretty cool ones too. One's called X. It's for it's much more adult edgy questions. I think it's for eighteen and up. And it's a stamp game where if you get it wrong, they stamp an X onto your forehead and inc and once you get five stamps on your forehead, you're out.
Interesting.
It is interesting. And then the weirdest edition I found, Chuck was the EMS edition. Emergency Medical Services came out in twenty twelve, wow, and it had categories like trauma, illness, anatomy.
It's just minor cuts, major cuts.
Right, Yeah, I'd like to see some of those questions. I couldn't find them. And you can also play free online. There's a new version that came out this year called Trivial Pursuit Infinite uses generative AI to come up with questions. And if you are a TV watcher, you can watch the new Tripe Pursuit game on the CW that's hosted by the lovable LeVar Burton.
Oh we love LeVar.
Everyone loves LeVar.
Who doesn't, no one?
Yeah, you got anything else?
I got nothing else. I'm looking forward to playing, you know. I do have to say I think I tried to play the original Genus sometime in the last like five or six years. It's been a minute, but I remember it didn't feel like it held up that well. And that's that's probably due to the fact that it was written in the eighties and it was geared toward boomers. Gotcha, but it was still okay.
Can you give an example of how it didn't hold up for a general example, Well, just.
You know, questions about gun smoke and Richard Nixon and and over and over, like they're.
Gonna say, it was like deeply sexist or something like that.
No, no, no, no, not like that. It just felt a little dated question wise, like, hey, I mean, supposedly the Master's Edition is the one I think the Gamer ranked in twenty twenty one and a listicle, and the Gamer said that the twenty twenty one Master Edition was the best edition yet. But that Classic Edition has sold the lion's share of those eighty million versions.
Yeah, pretty impressive stuff.
Yeah.
I love these Christmas episodes, the pre Christmas special usually Christmas Toy episode. Me too, So happy Holidays to all of you out there. And the next time you see us, we're going to be on that ad free holiday special coming soon. Do you have a listener mail today?
I do?
Oh great, Well, since Chuck answered in the affirmative when I asked him if he had a listener mail, it's time for listener mail.
Hey, guys, love your September episode on the history of music streaming. I grew up in the nineties. I can vividly remember being at my friend Ross's house downloading Weezer songs off of Napster and burning pirated versions onto CDRs. Title suggests I'm an active musician now and I wanted to take a quick moment and give a shout out to the music streaming platforms that didn't end up in the episode, like band camp and SoundCloud. Oh yeah, I feel bad we didn't mention these and we just kind of went with the big corporate modelists. As an independent artist, especially like how band camp allows us to promote shows, discover connect with other musicians directly, and the ability to customize the look and copy our releases look and copy on our releases page. It's made getting gigs and connecting with other indie bands so much easier. I also found it interesting how the preferred medium of the day has informed artists choices, has informed their choices when releasing music. In the nineties, albums were so much longer, he says, I'm looking at you, Smashing Pumpkins, because a loan CD could hold more than a vinyl LP or cassette. Today, there are so much music available at our fingertips. Musicians are releasing shorter albums, digital mixtapes, and a steady stream of albumless singles, all in an attempt to stay relevant and capture fleeting attention spans of listeners. I'm curious to see what happens over the next decade. Thanks for your time in the years of parasocial education and entertainment. This is from Chris and Seattle. And we actually met and hung out with Chris when many many years ago in Seattle. He was a friend of our booking agent at least at the time, Josh Lingren. We still our booking agent. They were friends at the time, as far as I know, friends anymore, because well, I don't know. I just didn't ask, but he I was going to text Linger and ask if you knew him, but they He came to the Neptune Show and I even rode in a car with him with Emily to some after party we went to.
Wowee.
Yeah. So good to be back in touch with Chris.
Yeah, yeah, thanks a lot, Chris, thanks for getting back in touch. I think that that's no longer parasocial, that's just social.
Yeah, you're right.
Well, if you want to be like Chris and remind us that we've hung out with you before, and also share some pretty great information and correct us for not shouting out independent version of something we talked about. We love that kind of stuff. You can send us an email to Stuff Podcast at iHeartRadio.
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