Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you should know, where the inner voices in your head. It turns out, no, good job, Chuck, good job, you got this.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you should know, where the inner voices in your head. It turns out, no, good job, Chuck, good job, you got this.

You got this.

You got this.

So what you're engaged in, Chuck, is called private speech.

So what you're engaged in, Chuck, is called private speech.

Oh you're so stupid.

Oh you're so stupid.

That's still private good job. As long as we can hear you, and you're talking to yourself.

That's still private good job. As long as we can hear you, and you're talking to yourself.

Yes, I get it now, sure saying it out loud, which means it's not the inner monologue or dialogue.

Yes, I get it now, sure saying it out loud, which means it's not the inner monologue or dialogue.

No, I'm always heard it called the inner monologue too, or internal monologue. But Anna helped us out with this, right, yeah, Ana g. She points out that inner monologue is a pretty limiting term because that voice in your head, the way that you talk to yourself, it can take all sorts of different shapes rather than you having a conversation beating yourself up quietly, those are kind of the keys to what we would call inner speech, or the people who research it would call it inner speech.

No, I'm always heard it called the inner monologue too, or internal monologue. But Anna helped us out with this, right, yeah, Ana g. She points out that inner monologue is a pretty limiting term because that voice in your head, the way that you talk to yourself, it can take all sorts of different shapes rather than you having a conversation beating yourself up quietly, those are kind of the keys to what we would call inner speech, or the people who research it would call it inner speech.

Yeah, or inner voice.

Yeah, or inner voice.

And it turns out this is kind of a tough one in some ways, because it's like I imagine Ana was up against it because there are many, many, many, many facets to this and it can serve a lot of different purposes. It's very common, but also some people don't have it. Yeah, we can look at brain scans and say like, hey, this is lighting up. But it's like, it's also really hard to study and get a consensus on because a lot of it is self reported as far as when people do it, and why people do it, and what function it could serve or doesn't serve, and if you don't have one, what does that mean. So there's just a lot of different avenues and it's tough to kind of make this a real tidy package.

And it turns out this is kind of a tough one in some ways, because it's like I imagine Ana was up against it because there are many, many, many, many facets to this and it can serve a lot of different purposes. It's very common, but also some people don't have it. Yeah, we can look at brain scans and say like, hey, this is lighting up. But it's like, it's also really hard to study and get a consensus on because a lot of it is self reported as far as when people do it, and why people do it, and what function it could serve or doesn't serve, and if you don't have one, what does that mean. So there's just a lot of different avenues and it's tough to kind of make this a real tidy package.

Yeah, and it's really impressive that people are figuring out how to research this at all. It's a definitely developing field. It's not established quite yet, so it's kind of the wild West in a lot of ways as far as you know psychology goes. But one of the reasons why it's fairly new is because people forever just thought like there are such things as inner voices, will never be able to study them because they are the definition of subjective and like you said, self reported tests are how they had studied them before, and that's just not super reliable. William James, the father of American psychology, he had to quote a paraphrase, I mean basically said, like trying to study something like inner speech is like turning up the lights to get a good look at what the dark looks like. You can't do it, was the end of his speech.

Yeah, and it's really impressive that people are figuring out how to research this at all. It's a definitely developing field. It's not established quite yet, so it's kind of the wild West in a lot of ways as far as you know psychology goes. But one of the reasons why it's fairly new is because people forever just thought like there are such things as inner voices, will never be able to study them because they are the definition of subjective and like you said, self reported tests are how they had studied them before, and that's just not super reliable. William James, the father of American psychology, he had to quote a paraphrase, I mean basically said, like trying to study something like inner speech is like turning up the lights to get a good look at what the dark looks like. You can't do it, was the end of his speech.

Yeah, oh boy, that makes a lot of sense, it does.

Yeah, oh boy, that makes a lot of sense, it does.

I've heard another one too that I love. Studying consciousness is like trying to use a flashlight to find the shadows.

I've heard another one too that I love. Studying consciousness is like trying to use a flashlight to find the shadows.

Oh, I got one too. Okay, youth is wasted on the young.

Oh, I got one too. Okay, youth is wasted on the young.

Oh that's a good one. That's a good one too. What was spuds? Mackenzie? Party? Animal? Two words? That's all you need to know.

Oh that's a good one. That's a good one too. What was spuds? Mackenzie? Party? Animal? Two words? That's all you need to know.

Yeah, this is just a tough one because there's so many little nuggets to uncover. Like after I had done all the research and I was kind of like, all right, let's go do this, I was like, wait, wait a minute, though, Like when my grandfather had a stroke when I was a kid, he had a phasia, which is some stroke patients you know, can't you know they're talking, but they're not saying the words that you.

Yeah, this is just a tough one because there's so many little nuggets to uncover. Like after I had done all the research and I was kind of like, all right, let's go do this, I was like, wait, wait a minute, though, Like when my grandfather had a stroke when I was a kid, he had a phasia, which is some stroke patients you know, can't you know they're talking, but they're not saying the words that you.

Understand, right.

Understand, right.

It was like, I wonder what's going on in their head and what that has to do with your inner voice. And I saw some things that said like, nope, your are it completely disturbs your inner voice as well, and then another other studies it said, no, your inner speech can be preserve herbed relative to the spoken language if you have a phasia. So it's just it can be frustrating, but it's also I shouldn't look at it that way and just think of it as like just super fascinating and maybe you know, we don't always have all the answers.

It was like, I wonder what's going on in their head and what that has to do with your inner voice. And I saw some things that said like, nope, your are it completely disturbs your inner voice as well, and then another other studies it said, no, your inner speech can be preserve herbed relative to the spoken language if you have a phasia. So it's just it can be frustrating, but it's also I shouldn't look at it that way and just think of it as like just super fascinating and maybe you know, we don't always have all the answers.

Yeah, that's a great way put I think. Another way to say it is we don't understand it, so those listening to this episode aren't going to understand it by the end of it either.

Yeah, that's a great way put I think. Another way to say it is we don't understand it, so those listening to this episode aren't going to understand it by the end of it either.

Well.

Well.

Yeah, and just in the case of the stroke thing with my grandfather, I remember very specifically being a kid and seeing the frustration and thinking as a ten year old like he in his head, he's saying what he's trying to say, right, Like I can tell because he's getting really frustrated that it's coming out as something that is unintelligible to us. But you know, all these years later, I got two answers.

Yeah, and just in the case of the stroke thing with my grandfather, I remember very specifically being a kid and seeing the frustration and thinking as a ten year old like he in his head, he's saying what he's trying to say, right, Like I can tell because he's getting really frustrated that it's coming out as something that is unintelligible to us. But you know, all these years later, I got two answers.

Yeah, there you go, full circle, I guess in that sense.

Yeah, there you go, full circle, I guess in that sense.

Yes, not a very satisfying one.

Yes, not a very satisfying one.

But yeah, so so, like we said, inner monologue is a little too limiting, we don't want to use that. Inner speech is way better. And inner speech is actually a little limiting, as we'll see too. But it turns out there's a lot of things that our inner speech does. Besides, like you demonstrated beating yourself up, it can be used to motivate. It's a good one. You kind of did that at first.

But yeah, so so, like we said, inner monologue is a little too limiting, we don't want to use that. Inner speech is way better. And inner speech is actually a little limiting, as we'll see too. But it turns out there's a lot of things that our inner speech does. Besides, like you demonstrated beating yourself up, it can be used to motivate. It's a good one. You kind of did that at first.

Right, Yeah, I think that was That was good, Chuck.

Right, Yeah, I think that was That was good, Chuck.

Right. We use it for memorizing things, problem solving, We used it to regulate ourselves, like, okay, Chuck, don't be mean to yourself all down. Yeah, that kind of stuff. But again not out loud, and then even more not me saying it, because dude, if your voice in your head was my voice, oh man, I would be so sorry for you.

Right. We use it for memorizing things, problem solving, We used it to regulate ourselves, like, okay, Chuck, don't be mean to yourself all down. Yeah, that kind of stuff. But again not out loud, and then even more not me saying it, because dude, if your voice in your head was my voice, oh man, I would be so sorry for you.

I dream as you. Is that weird?

I dream as you. Is that weird?

That's a little weird. I'd like to hear more about that though later on.

That's a little weird. I'd like to hear more about that though later on.

Now I'm just joking.

Now I'm just joking.

There have been plenty of people that have studied this, so and you know, we're going to talk about some of these people here and there. That was a pair of researchers in twenty eleven, Simon McCarthy Jones and Charles Fernie Howe.

There have been plenty of people that have studied this, so and you know, we're going to talk about some of these people here and there. That was a pair of researchers in twenty eleven, Simon McCarthy Jones and Charles Fernie Howe.

Maybe Fernie Hoe is what I saw. I heard, Yeah, like Tally Ho exactly, but Fernie right.

Maybe Fernie Hoe is what I saw. I heard, Yeah, like Tally Ho exactly, but Fernie right.

They developed to survey and where they kind of categorize different varieties of inner speech, and their survey was called the VISC the Varieties of Inner Speech Questionnaire y I SQ. And they also, along with others, have other categories and we're kind of just gonna go through these now. But one can be dialogic, which means you're like you're having a back and forth with yourself.

They developed to survey and where they kind of categorize different varieties of inner speech, and their survey was called the VISC the Varieties of Inner Speech Questionnaire y I SQ. And they also, along with others, have other categories and we're kind of just gonna go through these now. But one can be dialogic, which means you're like you're having a back and forth with yourself.

Or others.

Or others.

I asked Emily if I could talk about this because she talks out loud, which I guess isn't quite the same thing, but she'll I'll see her talking to herself sometimes having a conversation with someone much more common when she was having frustrations with her business, talking like out loud.

I asked Emily if I could talk about this because she talks out loud, which I guess isn't quite the same thing, but she'll I'll see her talking to herself sometimes having a conversation with someone much more common when she was having frustrations with her business, talking like out loud.

To people, but it would be in her head.

To people, but it would be in her head.

But then I would also see her talking out loud, and I'll walk into her room and say are you talking to and she'd tell me in but that's dialogic because there's some someone else involved, even if that someone else is another you.

But then I would also see her talking out loud, and I'll walk into her room and say are you talking to and she'd tell me in but that's dialogic because there's some someone else involved, even if that someone else is another you.

Right, what you can't see is the giant, furry purple monster with googly eyes and a tiki drink.

Right, what you can't see is the giant, furry purple monster with googly eyes and a tiki drink.

Oh man, that'd be great.

Oh man, that'd be great.

So, yeah, dialogic seems to be fairly fairly common too. Yeah, there's also condensed inner speech. That's it's kind of like a different form of so this. Okay, here's one of the things that I had trouble with, Chuck. Let me just be forth right here these there's not any neat package of this kind, this kind, and this kind, and then there's this sub kind of this kind and this kind and this kind. No one's put it together like that, so it's a little confusing. So, for example, dialogic inner speech, you'd think that the next thing would be monologic or something like that. That's not here. Instead, we're talking about condensed inner speech, which is using like abbreviations or like just words rather than full sentences. And that this is a way that you speak to yourself in a very private manner that you would probably never use to speak out loud. It's just the kind of shorthand that you use for yourself doesn't fit this list at all, and yet here we are.

So, yeah, dialogic seems to be fairly fairly common too. Yeah, there's also condensed inner speech. That's it's kind of like a different form of so this. Okay, here's one of the things that I had trouble with, Chuck. Let me just be forth right here these there's not any neat package of this kind, this kind, and this kind, and then there's this sub kind of this kind and this kind and this kind. No one's put it together like that, so it's a little confusing. So, for example, dialogic inner speech, you'd think that the next thing would be monologic or something like that. That's not here. Instead, we're talking about condensed inner speech, which is using like abbreviations or like just words rather than full sentences. And that this is a way that you speak to yourself in a very private manner that you would probably never use to speak out loud. It's just the kind of shorthand that you use for yourself doesn't fit this list at all, and yet here we are.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And as example for that is, you know you're leaving the house and you know phone, keys, wallet in your head, that kind of thing.

And as example for that is, you know you're leaving the house and you know phone, keys, wallet in your head, that kind of thing.

Right, But at the same time, you could be having a conversation with somebody about your own case, wallet, so it would be dialogic condensed inner speech drives me nuts.

Right, But at the same time, you could be having a conversation with somebody about your own case, wallet, so it would be dialogic condensed inner speech drives me nuts.

Yeah, I see your point other people as another one. That's when your voice, not when you're speaking to someone else, but when it takes on the voice of someone else. It could be Abraham Lincoln, it could be Josh Clark. And that's when you're imagining a conversation with someone else, where your own inner voice sounds like someone else. Is different than like Emily having a conversation with another person.

Yeah, I see your point other people as another one. That's when your voice, not when you're speaking to someone else, but when it takes on the voice of someone else. It could be Abraham Lincoln, it could be Josh Clark. And that's when you're imagining a conversation with someone else, where your own inner voice sounds like someone else. Is different than like Emily having a conversation with another person.

Right for sure, Like you're the bystander. Basically there's two people talking. There's a did you see that Guardian article about the that included the woman whose inner voice was a like a stereotypical Italian couple fighting arguing, so interesting and that's how she works stuff out. Like the wife would be like, no, she needs to quit her job and follow her dreams, and the husband would be like no, she's got a good job. She needs to keep her feet on the ground, and like eventually one would win the argument and then that's what she would do. That's what that lady's inner voice is.

Right for sure, Like you're the bystander. Basically there's two people talking. There's a did you see that Guardian article about the that included the woman whose inner voice was a like a stereotypical Italian couple fighting arguing, so interesting and that's how she works stuff out. Like the wife would be like, no, she needs to quit her job and follow her dreams, and the husband would be like no, she's got a good job. She needs to keep her feet on the ground, and like eventually one would win the argument and then that's what she would do. That's what that lady's inner voice is.

Like, Yeah, it's very fascinating. One can be motivational or a value to either you know, am I doing a good job here?

Like, Yeah, it's very fascinating. One can be motivational or a value to either you know, am I doing a good job here?

Or do a good job?

Or do a good job?

They found that, you know, with like sports performance and any kind of like public speaking or any kind of performative thing. You know, that inner voice pumping you up can lead to real results, usually good.

They found that, you know, with like sports performance and any kind of like public speaking or any kind of performative thing. You know, that inner voice pumping you up can lead to real results, usually good.

Yeah, and I saw that that was kind of expanded or changed. You're kind of cutt into sub categories later on or at some point. There's evaluative critical, which is basically like you know, did I do a good job or why didn't you get one hundred percent? That kind of thing. Yeah, there's also positive regulatory, which kind of ties into what you were just saying, Like if you imagine yourself, you know, doing really well practicing shooting baskets, there's some part of you that could be like keep up the hard work and you'll be in the MBA in no time. Where you did a great job, like those would fall under positive regulatory.

Yeah, and I saw that that was kind of expanded or changed. You're kind of cutt into sub categories later on or at some point. There's evaluative critical, which is basically like you know, did I do a good job or why didn't you get one hundred percent? That kind of thing. Yeah, there's also positive regulatory, which kind of ties into what you were just saying, Like if you imagine yourself, you know, doing really well practicing shooting baskets, there's some part of you that could be like keep up the hard work and you'll be in the MBA in no time. Where you did a great job, like those would fall under positive regulatory.

When I play basketball, all I hear in my head is what I hear on the court, which is swish.

When I play basketball, all I hear in my head is what I hear on the court, which is swish.

Oh nice, I was gonna say. I was waiting for you to say brick, because that's what I hear.

Oh nice, I was gonna say. I was waiting for you to say brick, because that's what I hear.

Ruby expressed interest in playing basketball the other day, and I had a hard time containing myself. I was like, you know, that's the only sport I was actually pretty good at. Like I can actually teach you something here.

Ruby expressed interest in playing basketball the other day, and I had a hard time containing myself. I was like, you know, that's the only sport I was actually pretty good at. Like I can actually teach you something here.

That's awesome, man.

That's awesome, man.

But I didn't want to say it too positively because then she'd be like, yeah, maybe not.

But I didn't want to say it too positively because then she'd be like, yeah, maybe not.

Very smart boy. You know what you're doing.

Very smart boy. You know what you're doing.

Don't to I'm working on it.

Don't to I'm working on it.

Another is prompted no, no, no, I'm sorry expanded speech, which is like if you have to have a tough conversation with someone and you're literally kind of just rehearsing that in your head as one or both. That is like when you're speaking not in any kind of abbreviate, abbreviated way.

Another is prompted no, no, no, I'm sorry expanded speech, which is like if you have to have a tough conversation with someone and you're literally kind of just rehearsing that in your head as one or both. That is like when you're speaking not in any kind of abbreviate, abbreviated way.

Yeah, it's the opposite of condensed speech, like you're thinking in or hearing in your inner voice the exact words, with the phonetics and the grammar and everything that you would say out.

Yeah, it's the opposite of condensed speech, like you're thinking in or hearing in your inner voice the exact words, with the phonetics and the grammar and everything that you would say out.

Loud, right, Which that got me on a side track of like, Oh, that's like, why do people when you hear your voice played on a recording?

Loud, right, Which that got me on a side track of like, Oh, that's like, why do people when you hear your voice played on a recording?

Why does that sound different? It's just has anything to do with that.

Why does that sound different? It's just has anything to do with that.

And I just had to park that because that gets into a whole other thing, which should probably.

And I just had to park that because that gets into a whole other thing, which should probably.

Be a shorty, the efference copy.

Be a shorty, the efference copy.

No, no, no, like when I listen to a podcast of us, like, why does your voice never match when you hear it out loud as it does in your own brain?

No, no, no, like when I listen to a podcast of us, like, why does your voice never match when you hear it out loud as it does in your own brain?

I think your efference copy probably no.

I think your efference copy probably no.

It has to do with like the way your skull reverberates. Oh, really actual physical stuff. But I think that could be a shorty.

It has to do with like the way your skull reverberates. Oh, really actual physical stuff. But I think that could be a shorty.

Reverberating Skull is a great album name.

Reverberating Skull is a great album name.

It is, and we'll get to efference copy later on it.

It is, and we'll get to efference copy later on it.

I clearly can't wait.

I clearly can't wait.

Yeah, it's good stuff.

Yeah, it's good stuff.

There's now we reach a point of the list where coherence starts to emerge. We've got like basically like a one and then the opposite. I don't know why I just put it so confusingly, So let's just start. There's elicited or prompted, which is inner speech that's basically triggered by some external factor. Someone comes along and says, here's some pictures of different stuff, pick out the ones who's named rhyme. So you've got to write a boot and then I don't know, a foot or something like that. Like you would pick out the boot and the foot, and depending on how liberally they were with their their judgments, they would say, yes, that rhymes.

There's now we reach a point of the list where coherence starts to emerge. We've got like basically like a one and then the opposite. I don't know why I just put it so confusingly, So let's just start. There's elicited or prompted, which is inner speech that's basically triggered by some external factor. Someone comes along and says, here's some pictures of different stuff, pick out the ones who's named rhyme. So you've got to write a boot and then I don't know, a foot or something like that. Like you would pick out the boot and the foot, and depending on how liberally they were with their their judgments, they would say, yes, that rhymes.

Yeah, but it's a prompt from an outside source, right, whereas the next one, which logically follows thankfully pristine or spontaneous. That was Russell hurl Bert, kind of a mouthful researcher that coined this one. That is that's just unprompted, spontaneous, and it's a part of what makes us us.

Yeah, but it's a prompt from an outside source, right, whereas the next one, which logically follows thankfully pristine or spontaneous. That was Russell hurl Bert, kind of a mouthful researcher that coined this one. That is that's just unprompted, spontaneous, and it's a part of what makes us us.

Yes, Like that is your genuine true inner voice. Sometimes it just comes out of nowhere, sometimes when you just are talking to yourself and don't even realize you're talking to yourself in your head. Like that's what Herbert Herlbert calls pristine. And there's this really great Aon article about your inner voice that was written by Phil Jacole j A. E. K L. And Phil points out, I'm hopefully hoping I can. We're on first name basis, me and Phil. But he points out that this is leading psychologists to be like, oh, my god, oh my god. If we can study pristine inner voices, like that's essentially like the external, the exterior of the unconscious, and we would be tapping into people's unconscious and other people are like, I think Fernio is like, whoa, whoa. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here, Let's just kind of take this one step at a time. Old Ferniho, that's what he's known nas. They call him the breaks.

Yes, Like that is your genuine true inner voice. Sometimes it just comes out of nowhere, sometimes when you just are talking to yourself and don't even realize you're talking to yourself in your head. Like that's what Herbert Herlbert calls pristine. And there's this really great Aon article about your inner voice that was written by Phil Jacole j A. E. K L. And Phil points out, I'm hopefully hoping I can. We're on first name basis, me and Phil. But he points out that this is leading psychologists to be like, oh, my god, oh my god. If we can study pristine inner voices, like that's essentially like the external, the exterior of the unconscious, and we would be tapping into people's unconscious and other people are like, I think Fernio is like, whoa, whoa. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here, Let's just kind of take this one step at a time. Old Ferniho, that's what he's known nas. They call him the breaks.

That's right and well, except when he gets excited about something then he yells out Fernie hoo. Maybe before we break, we should talk about these other four because that visc is still they've been revising it over the years and it's still in use for some researchers. But in twenty fifteen there was another researcher name what a great name, mal Gorzada a Polchaska wasl wasil wasel. Maybe they were like, all right, let's categorize it by emotional types, and these are the faithful friend, which has a nice ring to it. That's like your personal strength, positive feelings about yourself.

That's right and well, except when he gets excited about something then he yells out Fernie hoo. Maybe before we break, we should talk about these other four because that visc is still they've been revising it over the years and it's still in use for some researchers. But in twenty fifteen there was another researcher name what a great name, mal Gorzada a Polchaska wasl wasil wasel. Maybe they were like, all right, let's categorize it by emotional types, and these are the faithful friend, which has a nice ring to it. That's like your personal strength, positive feelings about yourself.

You're a neighborer.

You're a neighborer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The ambivalent parent, which is awful otherwise known as gen X parent, associated with strength and love and caring criticism.

The ambivalent parent, which is awful otherwise known as gen X parent, associated with strength and love and caring criticism.

So wait a minute, is it the parent of a gen xer or a gen x er as a parent. I'm confused.

So wait a minute, is it the parent of a gen xer or a gen x er as a parent. I'm confused.

I would say the parent. I mean, weren't most of our parents fairly ambivalent about us?

I would say the parent. I mean, weren't most of our parents fairly ambivalent about us?

Yeah? I would think so. Sure, It's like, oh, this.

Yeah? I would think so. Sure, It's like, oh, this.

Is weird because associated with strength, love and caring criticism, right, that's not ambivalent.

Is weird because associated with strength, love and caring criticism, right, that's not ambivalent.

So here is another problem with this field. People are naming stuff just way off.

So here is another problem with this field. People are naming stuff just way off.

Yeah, wily way off.

Yeah, wily way off.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. And it's hard to remember and understand this stuff if the pieces don't fit together because they're dripping, you know what I mean.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. And it's hard to remember and understand this stuff if the pieces don't fit together because they're dripping, you know what I mean.

That's gross. Yeah, but it's true. I know. What about the others emotionally ticking proud rival?

That's gross. Yeah, but it's true. I know. What about the others emotionally ticking proud rival?

Okay, And then there's one that was initially called calm optivist, but Pulchasca Waizl did a follow up study testing to see if her initial results were confirmed, and faithful friend, ambivalent parent, and proud rival were all there again in the second one, but optimist didn't show up, so she ended up replacing that with something called helpless child, which apparently is probably the worst of the worst.

Okay, And then there's one that was initially called calm optivist, but Pulchasca Waizl did a follow up study testing to see if her initial results were confirmed, and faithful friend, ambivalent parent, and proud rival were all there again in the second one, but optimist didn't show up, so she ended up replacing that with something called helpless child, which apparently is probably the worst of the worst.

All right, that's a lot.

All right, that's a lot.

It is, It was a lot. Do you understand this anymore? Sort of okay, good, well, we're making headway, Chuck.

It is, It was a lot. Do you understand this anymore? Sort of okay, good, well, we're making headway, Chuck.

All right, well we'll take a break and see if we can rain this puppy in right after this.

All right, well we'll take a break and see if we can rain this puppy in right after this.

Uh okay, Chuck. So, one of the things we're talking about with inner speech is it's easy to kind of confuse it with like say, private speech, where you're actually talking out loud yourself somebody could hear it. But one of the big differences with inner speech and verbal speech is that it's just faster. I guess allegedly for some people. It's not for me. Mine goes very slow and actually slows me down. It's like it goes slow. Yeah, the part of me that has to process the words slows down the speed that I could conceivably go at.

Uh okay, Chuck. So, one of the things we're talking about with inner speech is it's easy to kind of confuse it with like say, private speech, where you're actually talking out loud yourself somebody could hear it. But one of the big differences with inner speech and verbal speech is that it's just faster. I guess allegedly for some people. It's not for me. Mine goes very slow and actually slows me down. It's like it goes slow. Yeah, the part of me that has to process the words slows down the speed that I could conceivably go at.

Okay, it's just.

Okay, it's just.

Yeah, it's it's like old erniho. It just kind of puts the brake on everything. But normally, if you compare the two, it should be much faster, just because a lot of times you're using condensed speech, which you know again is you're just using shorthand that you can understand. I think that's where I get tripped up. I don't really do that. And then like physical physiologically, it's just you can think a lot faster than you can speak because you're not moving your mouth, You're not like taking a breath or anything like that. It's just supposedly faster. Is yours faster?

Yeah, it's it's like old erniho. It just kind of puts the brake on everything. But normally, if you compare the two, it should be much faster, just because a lot of times you're using condensed speech, which you know again is you're just using shorthand that you can understand. I think that's where I get tripped up. I don't really do that. And then like physical physiologically, it's just you can think a lot faster than you can speak because you're not moving your mouth, You're not like taking a breath or anything like that. It's just supposedly faster. Is yours faster?

Yeah? For sure.

Yeah? For sure.

There was one person, a researcher who actually endeavored to find out how fast that can get. This is in nineteen ninety and they found that some participants in the study could think more than four thousand words a minute. And you know, just for context, the world record for fastest out loud talker as a Canadian guy who went to six hundred and fifty five words per minute.

There was one person, a researcher who actually endeavored to find out how fast that can get. This is in nineteen ninety and they found that some participants in the study could think more than four thousand words a minute. And you know, just for context, the world record for fastest out loud talker as a Canadian guy who went to six hundred and fifty five words per minute.

So this is wow.

So this is wow.

Basically you can think up to six times faster than the fastest talker on the planet.

Basically you can think up to six times faster than the fastest talker on the planet.

Yeah, that's at least twice as much.

Yeah, that's at least twice as much.

Yeah, I actually did the math. It's roughly six.

Yeah, I actually did the math. It's roughly six.

Was that the guy from the uh dunkin Donuts commercials or the FedEx commercials in.

Was that the guy from the uh dunkin Donuts commercials or the FedEx commercials in.

They at now?

They at now?

It's unfortunately just some I mean, hey, I love this guy. It's been a knock him down. His name is Sean Shannon. He's a Canadian guy who who did the to be or not to be soliloqually in twenty three point eight seconds.

It's unfortunately just some I mean, hey, I love this guy. It's been a knock him down. His name is Sean Shannon. He's a Canadian guy who who did the to be or not to be soliloqually in twenty three point eight seconds.

Wow, well it goes sean.

Wow, well it goes sean.

You can't understand anything he's saying, but he can't have judges you know that are like, yeah, he's still saying those words.

You can't understand anything he's saying, but he can't have judges you know that are like, yeah, he's still saying those words.

So I guess then we reach another question, how does inner speech develop? Which apparently when they started figuring this out thanks to a guy named Lev by Gotsky who will meet in a second, it completely changed our understanding of children, because up to this point it was like, do kids learn first and then or does their brain develop and then they learn first? Or do they learn first by did they develop their brain by learning? Clearly I did neither at some point. Right, you can kind of get the gist of what I was saying.

So I guess then we reach another question, how does inner speech develop? Which apparently when they started figuring this out thanks to a guy named Lev by Gotsky who will meet in a second, it completely changed our understanding of children, because up to this point it was like, do kids learn first and then or does their brain develop and then they learn first? Or do they learn first by did they develop their brain by learning? Clearly I did neither at some point. Right, you can kind of get the gist of what I was saying.

Yeah, I thought this was super interesting. Child development is just fascinating to me, like going through it now, like more than ever obviously, but for most kids. And by the way, this Lev that got Ski he said we would meet you know what, let's just spring them and come on in love.

Yeah, I thought this was super interesting. Child development is just fascinating to me, like going through it now, like more than ever obviously, but for most kids. And by the way, this Lev that got Ski he said we would meet you know what, let's just spring them and come on in love.

Hey I'm dead, yeah exactly.

Hey I'm dead, yeah exactly.

This is in the nineteen thirties, so he has left us earthwise, but a lot of this has been born out in modern research. But in the thirties he was looking at like, basically, it starts out as private speech, like kids saying things out loud to themselves. And you know, first they start talking just to communicate like I'm hungry, I need to whatever, go to sleep. Actually kids never say that, I want to stay up right, and you know, that's just social communication. But then as they get older, they start sort of privately talking to themselves as an internal motivator. And then eventually that I think around that's between like three and four, and then around six or seven is when kids take that private voice inside their head and that's when the inner monologue kicks off more or.

This is in the nineteen thirties, so he has left us earthwise, but a lot of this has been born out in modern research. But in the thirties he was looking at like, basically, it starts out as private speech, like kids saying things out loud to themselves. And you know, first they start talking just to communicate like I'm hungry, I need to whatever, go to sleep. Actually kids never say that, I want to stay up right, and you know, that's just social communication. But then as they get older, they start sort of privately talking to themselves as an internal motivator. And then eventually that I think around that's between like three and four, and then around six or seven is when kids take that private voice inside their head and that's when the inner monologue kicks off more or.

Less right, and then they start to After that they continue to develop and get good at things like condensed speech and creating their own self shorthand and stuff like that. Yeah, it's pretty cool. So again I said that this kind of turned things on our head as far as understanding PJA. He was a very famous French psychologist. He said kids are dumb and then they learned, or their brain grows and then they learn. And this showed the exact opposite that they they developed their brain and their understanding of the world through learning. Through this inner dialogue, and it was by Goatsky, believe it or not, was a Soviet researcher, so the West wasn't exposed to his ideas until like the fifties, and they when they finally came out We're translated, it was like, great, okay, now we finally understand.

Less right, and then they start to After that they continue to develop and get good at things like condensed speech and creating their own self shorthand and stuff like that. Yeah, it's pretty cool. So again I said that this kind of turned things on our head as far as understanding PJA. He was a very famous French psychologist. He said kids are dumb and then they learned, or their brain grows and then they learn. And this showed the exact opposite that they they developed their brain and their understanding of the world through learning. Through this inner dialogue, and it was by Goatsky, believe it or not, was a Soviet researcher, so the West wasn't exposed to his ideas until like the fifties, and they when they finally came out We're translated, it was like, great, okay, now we finally understand.

Right, he's the one that coined the term InterVoice.

Right, he's the one that coined the term InterVoice.

Right, yeah, yeah, I'm not sure what that is in Russian, but yes, apparently it translates the inner voice.

Right, yeah, yeah, I'm not sure what that is in Russian, but yes, apparently it translates the inner voice.

I think it's a property of the Soviet Union. Why I said that as a German.

I think it's a property of the Soviet Union. Why I said that as a German.

It sounded Russian to me in my head.

It sounded Russian to me in my head.

You know, we mentioned that not everyone has in her speech or develops that it exists, like a lot of things do on a spectrum some people. Emily is a very very She's like, I'm constantly talking to people in my head.

You know, we mentioned that not everyone has in her speech or develops that it exists, like a lot of things do on a spectrum some people. Emily is a very very She's like, I'm constantly talking to people in my head.

Really, I know, I see it happening. You know.

Really, I know, I see it happening. You know.

The other interesting thing she does I don't think I've ever mentioned on the show. And she was like, you can say all this, I don't really care. She spells out when she's stressed. She'll spell out things with her thumb in.

The other interesting thing she does I don't think I've ever mentioned on the show. And she was like, you can say all this, I don't really care. She spells out when she's stressed. She'll spell out things with her thumb in.

Cursive like on a table, like just no, just.

Cursive like on a table, like just no, just.

Like sitting there, like we'll be watching a TV show and although she's stressed and her thumb will be going, and now I'll not on the not what she's doing for years now, I'll be like, what are you writing? And if it's a scene about like a tense standoff in an office or something, she might spelled typewriter or office or something just that she sees huh. It's not always like I'm nervous. It's never like I'm stressed or anything like that.

Like sitting there, like we'll be watching a TV show and although she's stressed and her thumb will be going, and now I'll not on the not what she's doing for years now, I'll be like, what are you writing? And if it's a scene about like a tense standoff in an office or something, she might spelled typewriter or office or something just that she sees huh. It's not always like I'm nervous. It's never like I'm stressed or anything like that.

So it's a way to alleviate her anxiety. I guess how interesting. That's cool. I've never heard of that.

So it's a way to alleviate her anxiety. I guess how interesting. That's cool. I've never heard of that.

Yeah, hey man.

Yeah, hey man.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Emily is one of a kind.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Emily is one of a kind.

We couple up with people, it's and you really dig in. You don't have any of those barriers up. It turns out that we're all just a little strange.

We couple up with people, it's and you really dig in. You don't have any of those barriers up. It turns out that we're all just a little strange.

Well how is her air penmanship?

Well how is her air penmanship?

She ge'ez great. I can read it all. I can look at her you know, thumb and just I can spell it right out in my.

She ge'ez great. I can read it all. I can look at her you know, thumb and just I can spell it right out in my.

Head very neat. Wow, can you really are you just? Just no, no, no, no, okay.

Head very neat. Wow, can you really are you just? Just no, no, no, no, okay.

It looks like a wow, it looks like some's gone wild.

It looks like a wow, it looks like some's gone wild.

Right, nice, too hot for a TV thumb one.

Right, nice, too hot for a TV thumb one.

Anyway, But that's kind of her inner voice too, you know, in a way, just manifesting itself physically, but it's still you know, not out loud. But some people constantly are doing this kind of thing, talking to themselves, others sometimes, some never. These two researchers, Johann Nedergert and Gary Lupien, if you have zero inner speech, they have termed that an end of phasia. And they say, and this is another kind of frustration, like between five to ten percent of people don't have inner speech, whereas Russell Hurlbert, who we've met, said, no, it's more like fifty to seventy percent.

Anyway, But that's kind of her inner voice too, you know, in a way, just manifesting itself physically, but it's still you know, not out loud. But some people constantly are doing this kind of thing, talking to themselves, others sometimes, some never. These two researchers, Johann Nedergert and Gary Lupien, if you have zero inner speech, they have termed that an end of phasia. And they say, and this is another kind of frustration, like between five to ten percent of people don't have inner speech, whereas Russell Hurlbert, who we've met, said, no, it's more like fifty to seventy percent.

Have inner speech or no, don't have inner speech.

Have inner speech or no, don't have inner speech.

Right, Yeah, so that's just that's wildly different.

Right, Yeah, so that's just that's wildly different.

It is wild. That's a great term for it again. Wild. So now Ferni Hooe comes in and says, whoa, everybody, I'm not really excited about this having its own term anendophasia and means lack endo means innerphasia's speech because and I think he makes a reasonable argument here when you come up with a term, especially a Latin term, for something the way people be or think or whatever. It seems to suggest that this is a condition, maybe even a disorder. And he's like, that's not necessarily true, especially if the majority of people don't have this inner voice. So do we really need a name for it? And I think Netderguard and Lupian were like, it's a pretty cool name, though, can we please keep it in ferni hoo's thinking about it right now?

It is wild. That's a great term for it again. Wild. So now Ferni Hooe comes in and says, whoa, everybody, I'm not really excited about this having its own term anendophasia and means lack endo means innerphasia's speech because and I think he makes a reasonable argument here when you come up with a term, especially a Latin term, for something the way people be or think or whatever. It seems to suggest that this is a condition, maybe even a disorder. And he's like, that's not necessarily true, especially if the majority of people don't have this inner voice. So do we really need a name for it? And I think Netderguard and Lupian were like, it's a pretty cool name, though, can we please keep it in ferni hoo's thinking about it right now?

Right? Well?

Right? Well?

That got me thinking, like, if you have no inner dialogue, does that mean like do sociopaths have that?

That got me thinking, like, if you have no inner dialogue, does that mean like do sociopaths have that?

But I found no correlation there.

But I found no correlation there.

It seems like sociopaths quite often have an inner dialogue saying like do this awful thing?

It seems like sociopaths quite often have an inner dialogue saying like do this awful thing?

Right? Yeah? Should we?

Right? Yeah? Should we?

Who are you?

Who are you?

They have other things though, Like so it's not like if you don't have an inner voice that there's no thought whatsoever. It can also come in different forms, I think, is what they're finding.

They have other things though, Like so it's not like if you don't have an inner voice that there's no thought whatsoever. It can also come in different forms, I think, is what they're finding.

Yeah, and they've also found this is Netderguard and Lepian and it studied just last year in twenty twenty four where they tested they wanted to know how it related to memory, and apparently a verbal memory of groups with very They tested people very high and very low rates of inner speech and found that you have a very low rate of inner speech.

Yeah, and they've also found this is Netderguard and Lepian and it studied just last year in twenty twenty four where they tested they wanted to know how it related to memory, and apparently a verbal memory of groups with very They tested people very high and very low rates of inner speech and found that you have a very low rate of inner speech.

You're not going to be as good.

You're not going to be as good.

At just remembering stuff like your lines in a play or a grocery list or anything, the poor bastards.

At just remembering stuff like your lines in a play or a grocery list or anything, the poor bastards.

The thing is, though, is that seems to be at least as far as they've discovered. Really the only big drawbacks is you aren't You don't do well necessarily in memory tests or something like that. But even for somebody who isn't thinking in like inner speech, where they're talking to themselves, there's a voice in their head talking, there's other ways that you can think using what is basically some sort of inner inner Well, inner speech is the best way to put it, but imagine that without speech, without language or words, there's inner seeing. Some people think in images, right, uh, feelings like just your emotions, which I'm kind of like, okay, is that does that get you in trouble? If that's how you respond and move and behave from the world, Because it's one of the big things from inner speech is what we do is we prepare ourselves and come up with a plan of action. What are we going to do next? How are we going to respond to this? So if you're not thinking it over in your head, and it's your emotions that that drive you. Like that just seems like it could get scary. There's fraut huh, like it's fraud, fraud exactly. Yeah, there's unsim unsymbolized thinking. So you've got like you're just not you're not thinking like Okay, I need to get in that car. You just I don't know, I don't know. I can't even give you an example here. Uh. And then the last one that they've mentioned is sensory awareness, which is just sensing things and then I guess responding essentially like an amoeba like that, Oh this it's this stove is hot, so I'm going to move my hand. But imagine nothing in between the heat, the sensation of heat entering your hand and removing your hand, no thought whatsoever between that. That's right. Apparently what sensory awareness is.

The thing is, though, is that seems to be at least as far as they've discovered. Really the only big drawbacks is you aren't You don't do well necessarily in memory tests or something like that. But even for somebody who isn't thinking in like inner speech, where they're talking to themselves, there's a voice in their head talking, there's other ways that you can think using what is basically some sort of inner inner Well, inner speech is the best way to put it, but imagine that without speech, without language or words, there's inner seeing. Some people think in images, right, uh, feelings like just your emotions, which I'm kind of like, okay, is that does that get you in trouble? If that's how you respond and move and behave from the world, Because it's one of the big things from inner speech is what we do is we prepare ourselves and come up with a plan of action. What are we going to do next? How are we going to respond to this? So if you're not thinking it over in your head, and it's your emotions that that drive you. Like that just seems like it could get scary. There's fraut huh, like it's fraud, fraud exactly. Yeah, there's unsim unsymbolized thinking. So you've got like you're just not you're not thinking like Okay, I need to get in that car. You just I don't know, I don't know. I can't even give you an example here. Uh. And then the last one that they've mentioned is sensory awareness, which is just sensing things and then I guess responding essentially like an amoeba like that, Oh this it's this stove is hot, so I'm going to move my hand. But imagine nothing in between the heat, the sensation of heat entering your hand and removing your hand, no thought whatsoever between that. That's right. Apparently what sensory awareness is.

Like huh all right.

Like huh all right.

Uh. That that study from last year where they were talking about verbal memory made me wonder about dyslexia because you know, my daughter has dyslexia, and and I was like, I bet you there's a tie there, And I was actually right on the money with this one. Supposedly, if you have dyslexia, you have very little to know inner voice really, so it was fascinating. Yeah, because a lot of times they think in images and they think and they call it kind of like three D thinking.

Uh. That that study from last year where they were talking about verbal memory made me wonder about dyslexia because you know, my daughter has dyslexia, and and I was like, I bet you there's a tie there, And I was actually right on the money with this one. Supposedly, if you have dyslexia, you have very little to know inner voice really, so it was fascinating. Yeah, because a lot of times they think in images and they think and they call it kind of like three D thinking.

Gotcha, So it's less word based, gotcha.

Gotcha, So it's less word based, gotcha.

That's maybe cool. I tested myself on this a little bit to find out what I do, Like, I typically just think in words.

That's maybe cool. I tested myself on this a little bit to find out what I do, Like, I typically just think in words.

I guess, Yeah, a lot.

I guess, Yeah, a lot.

Of times I talk to myself, but I think I don't know. I think that there's a lot going on in there that I'm not cognizant of. I'm really bad at, like how I feel and like just understanding, you know, what's going on in my head at any given time, like really just introspecting, like I do it a lot, but I'm not necessarily good at is I guess what I'm trying to say.

Of times I talk to myself, but I think I don't know. I think that there's a lot going on in there that I'm not cognizant of. I'm really bad at, like how I feel and like just understanding, you know, what's going on in my head at any given time, like really just introspecting, like I do it a lot, but I'm not necessarily good at is I guess what I'm trying to say.

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I can be like that too.

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I can be like that too.

See, I don't believe that one bit. I think you're a champion at that kind of thing.

See, I don't believe that one bit. I think you're a champion at that kind of thing.

So well, maybe certain kinds. You know how I get so complicated.

So well, maybe certain kinds. You know how I get so complicated.

I appreciate you trying to make me feel better, but you're wrong about you not being good at it. So I tested myself to see if I could think in just images without words, because I've never really thought about that. So some part of me told myself to think of a watering can, okay, And I didn't hear it. Was just like there wasn't in words. I didn't hear it. No one spoke it, I didn't see it spelled out. It was just there was some command all of a sudden to think of a water and cant, and all of a sudden, a water and cant came up. And the proof that I was not thinking in words is that I couldn't think of the word for what I was seeing.

I appreciate you trying to make me feel better, but you're wrong about you not being good at it. So I tested myself to see if I could think in just images without words, because I've never really thought about that. So some part of me told myself to think of a watering can, okay, And I didn't hear it. Was just like there wasn't in words. I didn't hear it. No one spoke it, I didn't see it spelled out. It was just there was some command all of a sudden to think of a water and cant, and all of a sudden, a water and cant came up. And the proof that I was not thinking in words is that I couldn't think of the word for what I was seeing.

Oh wow, Yeah.

Oh wow, Yeah.

And then some other part of me came in and was like, you know, I think you were actually supposed to produce an image of a flower pot. And then I got worried about cognitive decline. And that's no joke, Like that was the whole process right there.

And then some other part of me came in and was like, you know, I think you were actually supposed to produce an image of a flower pot. And then I got worried about cognitive decline. And that's no joke, Like that was the whole process right there.

Wow, that is fascinating, And I would imagine hard to do, kind of like a Ghostbusters, you know, don't clear your mind right and then you get the safe up marshmallow man like that. If anything has suggested, I will immediately see the word if it says like don't think of the word, I'll be I'll think of that word.

Wow, that is fascinating, And I would imagine hard to do, kind of like a Ghostbusters, you know, don't clear your mind right and then you get the safe up marshmallow man like that. If anything has suggested, I will immediately see the word if it says like don't think of the word, I'll be I'll think of that word.

Yeah, I guess I didn't. It was more like not. It wasn't like I was saying like, don't do this. It was more do this or try this. So because there wasn't like that blanket prohibition, I'm not thinking about the word. Yeah, it was easier to do. But just back to Ruby, So, did you ask her she has an inter voice or if she thinks in symbols or whatever.

Yeah, I guess I didn't. It was more like not. It wasn't like I was saying like, don't do this. It was more do this or try this. So because there wasn't like that blanket prohibition, I'm not thinking about the word. Yeah, it was easier to do. But just back to Ruby, So, did you ask her she has an inter voice or if she thinks in symbols or whatever.

No, she's at school, so it didn't come to me. But I'll ask her later and let you know, Okay, to let me know, text me she yeah, this says Ruby says that her inner voice just says find Josh kill Josh.

No, she's at school, so it didn't come to me. But I'll ask her later and let you know, Okay, to let me know, text me she yeah, this says Ruby says that her inner voice just says find Josh kill Josh.

Burned, Josh, No, she loves you. I know. I love her too. I think she's sweet.

Burned, Josh, No, she loves you. I know. I love her too. I think she's sweet.

I love her too. I think that's what I thought you were saying.

I love her too. I think that's what I thought you were saying.

Hey, did she know did she like Magdalena Bay?

Hey, did she know did she like Magdalena Bay?

She did?

She did?

Did she really? I just figured that she hadn't and you were just not mentioning it.

Did she really? I just figured that she hadn't and you were just not mentioning it.

Now. No, I thought I texted you back. No, yeah, Josh, it was very sweet.

Now. No, I thought I texted you back. No, yeah, Josh, it was very sweet.

Got a text and he said, Hey, I got this new artist that I've been listening to.

Got a text and he said, Hey, I got this new artist that I've been listening to.

I think Ruby might like it.

I think Ruby might like it.

Well, I'm glad I was right. For some reason. Every time I heard it, I would just be like, Ruby would really like this. That does not happen every time I listened to something, so I thought I should love to say something.

Well, I'm glad I was right. For some reason. Every time I heard it, I would just be like, Ruby would really like this. That does not happen every time I listened to something, so I thought I should love to say something.

Oh I could have sworn I texted you, but yeah, we listened to it together and she dug it cool.

Oh I could have sworn I texted you, but yeah, we listened to it together and she dug it cool.

Cool, so hey, big plug for Magdalena Bay. Also a nice place to visit.

Cool, so hey, big plug for Magdalena Bay. Also a nice place to visit.

From what I hear, she's great. Is that a place too? Are you joking? No, I'm just kidding me, and you're getting me all over the place today.

From what I hear, she's great. Is that a place too? Are you joking? No, I'm just kidding me, and you're getting me all over the place today.

Back to Russell Hurlbert, that's just so hard to It doesn't roll off the tongue. Sorry, even in your head it doesn't. Yeah, oh yeah in my inner voice. It's hard to say too.

Back to Russell Hurlbert, that's just so hard to It doesn't roll off the tongue. Sorry, even in your head it doesn't. Yeah, oh yeah in my inner voice. It's hard to say too.

That.

That.

He developed a tool called the Descriptive Experience Sampling. I would call it the sampler, but DES that is when he sets you down and puts I guess a device in the room and it's like, hey, just sit there and chill out and do whatever and think about whatever. And anytime you hear beep, though, you got to write down whatever is in your brain at that exact moment. I guess in the idea of just sorting to try and hit on the randomness of like what you might be thinking at any given time and just log those thoughts right then and then they would talk about those and he said, maybe this could give me a good framework. And when he got the results back, he was like, wow, this is fascinating. How just all over the place it was. It's so multilayered, it's so varied. People can be thinking of a watering can and be saying the words flower pot at the same time with no explanation at all. Right, sometimes you have multiple voices all talking over each other. And he was just like this is he just put the device away and walk slowly out of the room.

He developed a tool called the Descriptive Experience Sampling. I would call it the sampler, but DES that is when he sets you down and puts I guess a device in the room and it's like, hey, just sit there and chill out and do whatever and think about whatever. And anytime you hear beep, though, you got to write down whatever is in your brain at that exact moment. I guess in the idea of just sorting to try and hit on the randomness of like what you might be thinking at any given time and just log those thoughts right then and then they would talk about those and he said, maybe this could give me a good framework. And when he got the results back, he was like, wow, this is fascinating. How just all over the place it was. It's so multilayered, it's so varied. People can be thinking of a watering can and be saying the words flower pot at the same time with no explanation at all. Right, sometimes you have multiple voices all talking over each other. And he was just like this is he just put the device away and walk slowly out of the room.

I think, yeah, yeah, So this is a really big deal that he was able to come up with this, because this is one of the reasons why people were so I guess wary of trying to study inner voices because they're so subjective. Hurlbert figured out a way to like take as much subjectivity out of it as possible. Yeah, you know, and I think exactly, And I think in the more like the bigger studies that he came up with, like you would get a beeper and like turned out in the world for like a week or two weeks or something, so that you would eventually get used to the beeper being there, wouldn't just be like waiting like I'm right to have this awesome thought like ready for.

I think, yeah, yeah, So this is a really big deal that he was able to come up with this, because this is one of the reasons why people were so I guess wary of trying to study inner voices because they're so subjective. Hurlbert figured out a way to like take as much subjectivity out of it as possible. Yeah, you know, and I think exactly, And I think in the more like the bigger studies that he came up with, like you would get a beeper and like turned out in the world for like a week or two weeks or something, so that you would eventually get used to the beeper being there, wouldn't just be like waiting like I'm right to have this awesome thought like ready for.

When the deeper goes off, you know, good way to do.

When the deeper goes off, you know, good way to do.

It, Yeah, so that you would like he was genuinely tapping into whatever random thoughts are in your head. So he also the process also includes extensive interviews. I saw like multiple like six seven minutes on one word, one thought from one entry. And then they're really careful not to lead the person and have them, you know, start to implant memories accidentally that kind of stuff for revise what they are actually thinking, but instead kind of dig deeper and deeper and deeper into what else was there at the time. And I think the people who are participants studies like this are actually surprised from these interviews because they didn't realize, like, you know, in addition to thinking this word, wait, there was this image over here too, and you know it just goes on from there.

It, Yeah, so that you would like he was genuinely tapping into whatever random thoughts are in your head. So he also the process also includes extensive interviews. I saw like multiple like six seven minutes on one word, one thought from one entry. And then they're really careful not to lead the person and have them, you know, start to implant memories accidentally that kind of stuff for revise what they are actually thinking, but instead kind of dig deeper and deeper and deeper into what else was there at the time. And I think the people who are participants studies like this are actually surprised from these interviews because they didn't realize, like, you know, in addition to thinking this word, wait, there was this image over here too, and you know it just goes on from there.

Yeah, and he's like Rosebud's gotta be more than a wagon.

Yeah, and he's like Rosebud's gotta be more than a wagon.

It was a sled.

It was a sled.

I thought it was a wagon. Was it a sled? Yeah?

I thought it was a wagon. Was it a sled? Yeah?

Good lord, you're the movie guy too, aren't you. Man? Burl Lives just roll over in his grave.

Good lord, you're the movie guy too, aren't you. Man? Burl Lives just roll over in his grave.

Why did I think it was a wagon? It's a slid, which is really just a wagon with rails.

Why did I think it was a wagon? It's a slid, which is really just a wagon with rails.

Yeah, I guess it is. I think radio fire makes both. So who's gonna discriminate? Not mean?

Yeah, I guess it is. I think radio fire makes both. So who's gonna discriminate? Not mean?

Shall we take a break?

Shall we take a break?

Yeah?

Yeah?

All right, we'll take another break and we'll talk a little bit about brain areas lighting up right after this. Okay, buddy, I'm supposed to lead off this segment, but I'm going to hand it right back to you because I know when I say the word efference you get excited. We're going to talk about efference copies at long last take it away.

All right, we'll take another break and we'll talk a little bit about brain areas lighting up right after this. Okay, buddy, I'm supposed to lead off this segment, but I'm going to hand it right back to you because I know when I say the word efference you get excited. We're going to talk about efference copies at long last take it away.

Oh okay, I had never heard about this before, had you same? Okay, So apparently when we think when we're about to speak right now, without me being cognizant of it, there's a part of my brain that is pre arranging and planning what I'm about to say. Right I have no idea that this is going on. I think I'm just talking at this point, but there's a part of my brain that knows exactly what's going to happen, and they set out, they send out what's called sorry, my brain apologizes for that, what's called an efference copy, which is basically a blueprint of what I'm about to say to the rest of my brain. That includes, but what movements I'm going to make with my jaw and tongue, and a prediction of what it's going to sound like coming out, and then also a basically a blanket statement like what you're about to hear is coming from you, So it keeps us from being startled. It allows us to recognize that what we're saying is coming from us. And the most amazing part about this is that when we think to ourselves using our inner voice or inner symbols or whatever, but definitely inner voice, I'm not sure about symbols now that I mention it, we do the same thing. We get basically a cruder version of the efference copy, but it also includes orders to not move your mouth, to not move your tongue, that there's not going to be a touch sensation, but that everything else is like the efference copy contains all the other stuff.

Oh okay, I had never heard about this before, had you same? Okay, So apparently when we think when we're about to speak right now, without me being cognizant of it, there's a part of my brain that is pre arranging and planning what I'm about to say. Right I have no idea that this is going on. I think I'm just talking at this point, but there's a part of my brain that knows exactly what's going to happen, and they set out, they send out what's called sorry, my brain apologizes for that, what's called an efference copy, which is basically a blueprint of what I'm about to say to the rest of my brain. That includes, but what movements I'm going to make with my jaw and tongue, and a prediction of what it's going to sound like coming out, and then also a basically a blanket statement like what you're about to hear is coming from you, So it keeps us from being startled. It allows us to recognize that what we're saying is coming from us. And the most amazing part about this is that when we think to ourselves using our inner voice or inner symbols or whatever, but definitely inner voice, I'm not sure about symbols now that I mention it, we do the same thing. We get basically a cruder version of the efference copy, but it also includes orders to not move your mouth, to not move your tongue, that there's not going to be a touch sensation, but that everything else is like the efference copy contains all the other stuff.

Yeah, fascinating, and efference copy is not a bad band name, No, little brainy it is.

Yeah, fascinating, and efference copy is not a bad band name, No, little brainy it is.

But yeah, I could see I'm gonna go to the old standby mathrock.

But yeah, I could see I'm gonna go to the old standby mathrock.

Yeah, yeah, totally okay, So as far as the old Wonder Machine goes there obviously have done plenty of studies where they they always like to see what's lighting up, you know, but these are often disappointing to me when it comes to stuff like this, because it's like I feel like, at this point in our show after so many years, even listeners will say, oh, I bet the temporal cortex lights up.

Yeah, yeah, totally okay, So as far as the old Wonder Machine goes there obviously have done plenty of studies where they they always like to see what's lighting up, you know, but these are often disappointing to me when it comes to stuff like this, because it's like I feel like, at this point in our show after so many years, even listeners will say, oh, I bet the temporal cortex lights up.

That's associated with.

That's associated with.

Memory and hearing in language, and then broke his area, which we've talked about countless times, is it's associated with speech, and yes, those areas light up.

Memory and hearing in language, and then broke his area, which we've talked about countless times, is it's associated with speech, and yes, those areas light up.

Yeah, da da yes. But at the same time, there's also different regions that light up as well that wouldn't light up when we speak out loud. So it's clear that there are it has its own thing, that inner voice is different as far as the brain is concerned from speech as well, that they bear a strong resemblance to one another. And then also they found the brain patterns for when we are spontaneously speaking to ourselves that Christine in her talk that Herobert mentioned that that uses or different regions of the brain light up for elicited types where we're like using where we're we're we're rehearsing what we're saying, or something like that. Man, my efference copy.