Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray. It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff you should know from house Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. With me is always a chipper and cheerful Charles W. Chuck Bryant Man, I'm going ten different directions, buddy. Yeah, I'm a little screwy, are you. Yeah, we'll focus on this one. Okay, okay, because we're going on in one direction, and that's hate. I hate to focus. Okay. You hate broccoli. I do hate broccoli, and you know that. I also hate peas, like split peas. I remember declaring um as a child that peas are some of my most hated enemies. I think a lot of kids don't like peas because they're mushy. Yeah. Well that's the problem with all vegetables. Really, they're mushy, they're overcooked if you cook something. No, I've had pretty nasty broccoli. But broccoli, it's all that's separate. It's just disgusting in every single way. But cream spinach, I love that. It's awesome. Yeah, that's good stuff. You and I shared a cream spinach at Morton steak. That's recently two ladies. Yeah, it was something we couldn't even finish. It was so rich. It was really good, So Chuck, we don't hate cream spinach, I hate broccoli and um. One of the things I hate more than anything else is not having an intro, which I don't because I was looking online and strangely they're The online world is a repository for hate in a certain way, as in like, um, neo Nazi punk bands not huh, this article calls it pop music pop music, yeah, um, or you know Facebook groups dedicated to hate, like you know, Holocaust denial and that kind of stuff. Sure, Um, but this word is so ubiquitous in our culture that there was nothing there. Like I found a guy um and dairy and mass who was accused of hate crime. Um, everybody wants to know why, um, Cleveland fans hate Lebron. I can answer that. But I mean, like, we throw this word around like the you know, some reality TV series was the show you love to hate? Right? Um. We we use this word a lot. But yeah, I found a study out of the University of Texas that that asked people how often they hated and um, nobody said every day. It's not an everyday thing. So like we we hate things mc brockley, but we also realized that there's a real distinction between hating something and experiencing actual hate. You hit it on the head, and this is a pretty old distinction, right, Like, like philosophers have have been aware of this before. I think Aristotle was pretty sure he hated peas, but he really hated him Lock. Yeah. He and he's not Webster, so I will read his definition because he's Aristotle. Uh. He said it was a dislike for someone based on our negative perception of that person's nature. That is so intense that whoever feels it wants to cause real harm to another, Like I really want to harm you. Yeah, so that's the difference, Like Pete, like you said, people throw that word around. I hate broccoli, but you're not gonna go out and try and burn down broccoli farms. No, I know that's silly. I'm not gonna go burn down Cubby BROCCOLI's family's broccoli farm. It was used to fund the James Bond movies. But Josh, I think, and this is me surmising in my own personal purview, I think there are kind of two types of hate, well three types really. Then one type that you just throw the word around like I hate that show, I hate broccoli. One that is real hate, which I think is fear based when you don't know someone personally or a group personally, where you hate a group of people. And then there's like the anger retribution based hate, like someone personally has wronged you so badly that you hate them and and cause and either want to cause or which ill upon them. Right, Well, you just brought up a huge can of worms by using the word anger. Like there's a real debate over whether hate and anger are the same thing, right, right, They say they're not. It depends on who you talk to. But the people who say they're not say things like UM, hate is brought on by humiliation or ill treatment or being devalued. Where anger is brought on when you're when you're treated UM in a way that you consider unfairly. Right, right, anger is the result of UM not having any recourse. Right, frustration perhaps coupled with that right and that that kind of dances along the border because people who hate, you know, other groups often are frustrated. Like when we talked about the fast sism in the fascism podcast Getting Um Getting groups all riled up against a scapegoat is one of the tenets of fascism, right, And so these people are frustrated at their lot in life, their unemployments high because of the Jews or something like that, Right, But really they're not. They're they're angry about their job while they hate the Jews. So the two are really intertwined. But there's a lot of people think if you look at them deeply enough, they're not one and the same. Well, I think a lot of times that kind of hate is displaced anger and frustration at your own you know. Yeah, but there is there is also a very um strong physiological basis to it as well. I mean, it's an emotion supposedly, although it's not one of the basic emotions. Anger is Yeah, what are the basic emotions? Anger? Joy, fear discussed and peckishness. I thought it was joy, pain, sunshine and rain. No is that Rob bass No? I can't remember. I could sing it, but I can't remember sing it. No, no, no, I think it's Rob Basse. No it was it was a duo. Oh no, no, I'm thinking of uh, I want money, lots and lots of money. That was a duo to be rich. Remember that stupid song? Yeah, kind of. They wrote a song about being rich. Oh yeah, how great it was, and that was their only song. So unless they were already rich than they never were from that song that makes sense. Yeah, it does just blew my mind, buddy. So do you hate that song? Uh? I do now because it's in my head. So, Chuck, what is this um physiological basis of anger? Well, it's pointed out in the article within an Iron Maiden song, which I thought was an odd choice. There's a thin line between love and hate. Yeah, It's like there's a whole other song called There's a thin Line between Love and Hate. Well, there's a much more popular song, I think, the Persuaders, which was It's a thin line between Love and hate, the old Motown song. Right. Have you ever heard the Pretender's version of it? No, it's hands down the greatest version ever. Really is a thin yea between love and Hey, the Pretenders covered the Persuaders and yep, all right, I'm telling you all right. So apparently Iron Maiden actually listen to that song on YouTube the other day and it's a it's an Iron Maiden song. Yeah, now I looked it up to make sure that Iron maidenheading covered the persuaders, and uh no, Bruce Dickinson came up with his own lyrics, his own version. He's like, that one's fine. I'm doing this one. That's right. So the point of all this, Josh, is that there is a thin line between love and hate as far as uh the brain goes. Because um, in two thousand and eight, there was a study at the University College of London and that's in the UK, and um, they got seventeen people, not very wide ranging. I had a lot of problems with this study, but they got seventeen people who say they hated someone else. Maybe that's why they maybe have a hard time finding someone who hates someone else. Maybe not because I don't hate anyone. I was about to ask you that. Well, we'll get to the personal stuff in a minute. So this study, what they did was they found seventeen people who hated someone else, threw them under the old wonder machine and looked showed him pictures of the people they hated. Which is so funny to record the results. I guess they're like, you need to bring pictures of people you hate. For the study, Yeah, they could have just said think of the person you hate, I think, and it would achieve the same goal, I guess. So anyway, they what they found out was that a couple of regions in the brain there's like a hate circuit. They call it there the pudament okay, and the Jerry laughed at that, and the insular cortex in both fired up with pictures of people that they hated, right, And the significance of this is that both of those regions also fire up when you see picture or think about someone you love, which is the longest way to say. It's a thin line between Lemon hates, right, and I think everybody kind of senses that. It's like um when passions flaring are it's virtually the same thing. There are two sides of one coin. In my opinion, if you truly hate somebody, the real hate to fear is not one where somebody's like, oh I hate you so much, you know, because that that can be turned. That means that they have some sort of emotional connection to you. The one to be afraid of is the detached, calm, cool kind of hatred, because that's the one where you end up dead somewhere like I'm the Green River killer and I hate prostitutes. Well, that brings up an interesting sidebar, right, Um, do serial killers hate their victims? No? End of sidebar. Well, they have long said that serial killers don't experience emotion on that scale, but they're starting to uh to change their thinking in certain cases because a lot of serial killers suffer from antisocial personality disorder, and people who suffer from that experience a range of emotions. So it's not always I think it's it's both. You know that not you can't say every serial killer it's the same. Well, they've been saying that for a long time. They've been trying to find the threads that connect them. And I told you about the sociologist I talked to. He was just really up in arms that psychology has spent for decades or so looking at serial killers and investing come up with his anti personal any social personality disorder. He's like, of course they have a personality disorder, they're serial killers. That's a good point. So back to that study though, about the brain and the difference between love and hate, and they did see, um, a difference, a key difference because the areas of the frontal cortex associated with judgment and critical thinking become less active when you see someone you love of on the f m R I machine, But when you saw someone you hate, most of your frontal cortex cortex cortex is active, remains active. Yeah, so that's a big difference. But that makes sense as well, Chuck, because I mean, if you see I know, you don't hate anybody, so you wouldn't understand this. But when you see someone you hate, you just like it's a personality, you just you you you tend to criticize them in your head, like, oh, you're wearing that sweater today. You look so fat and stupid in that sweater. I hope you somehow get did you strangle yourself on that sweater? Yeah? So the point is that it takes like hatred is an active thing. It's an active rumination on this. It's not a knee jerk thing like when you might see a picture of someone you love. All right, So that's interesting, right, that's what that study came up with the set of the seventeen people. Yeah, with the this Yeah, it couldn't get you know. And the other problem is I'm sure they were um weird western educated Uh deed something rich and developed carrel, what the eye stands for? And what would you just spell weird? It's basically like the idea that all of these studies that cited are cited. A lot of them are they're just college kids. So it's like this really narrow niche of the human population that they extrapolate onto good point and in this case they just use seventeen of them. Well, we're here to report it and then criticize it, and we're done. We did both, that's right. Uh. What what's the deal with like old hate? Though? Like don't they have some inclination of like early hate with Caveman and the like? Well, yeah, because parts of the you know, the closer to the center or the brain stem that you get in the brain, the more ancient that part of the brain is. And if there's a region like the pew tamin that's associated with a certain thing e g. Hate, then that means that hate's been around for a very long time because they are part of the brain. Uh has been able to carry out that function for this song or should ostensibly got you right, but then it's also new with the prefrontal cortex which is a fairly newer aspect. So maybe we just hated, but we didn't criticize. We just hated. And they think possibly that we developed hate as a species or a capacity to hate as a survival mechanism way back in hunter gatherer days, where we could feel justified by say, taking food from another group because we hated them, which I actually found pretty that's a pretty inspiring idea. Yeah, that you had to work up hate enough to go in pillage. I think that's kind of neat because it makes it seem like we aren't naturally hateful beings, and I don't think we are. I believe everybody had hate, and everyone has a vast capacity to hate, but I don't I wouldn't characterize this as generally hateful. That's good. I'm kind of surprised to hear you say that that's true though. Alright, So, uh, it's in the Bible, Josh, It's an ancient text all over the place. Hate's been around a long time. M Right. We canna talk about Carthage, Yeah, because I know you love this. The Carthaginian general, Hannibal Carthaginian, and you gotta stop that Hannibal pledged to his father, Dad, I hate Rome, I hate Romans. I don't like the Italians. I hate them forever, and I will swear retribution because they have seized our provinces. He said, father, yes, son, I'm going to kill the Romans. And he did. He made good on that, invaded Italy and did quite a bit of damage. Of course, the Romans fired back because they hate the Carthage. Why can't say that word? They hated people from Carthage, the Carthagenians, and in one PC they did some pretty bad things like burning them in their houses while they screamed. But does that hate, like, I don't know, And that's a I think that's an issue that I have um here there with this is that there? That's kind of a jump to conclusion, Like is it hate? I don't know. It does hate form the basis for war or horrible acts in war? Well, I don't know, because it's it's condemned pretty much in like the New Testament in the Bible, it's condemned in the Koran. Uh, let not hatred of the people incite you not to act equitably, And in uh Medieval and Renaissance Europe you came up in you but in Italy they came up with the vendetta, which is uh, very much retribution for the hatred. There you go, I I let's see, that's what I'm saying. Like I think, let's say a Roman soldier comes to your town while you're away using the the latrine pit that your village has dug, and they burn your family alive in your house while you're using the bathroom. And you come back and you see the Roman legions going away and your family is dead, burned the crisps. Right. Um. I don't think the Romans necessarily felt hatred to commit that act, but that act would incite hatred in the person that it befell. So I think of vendetta is an excellent example of hatred because somebody done, you're wrong and you're gonna get back at them, or they did something to your father or something you The vendetta is very long lasting from what I understand. Yeah, and it's not I mean, this is obviously we're talking about mafia vendetta's and war vendetta's, but it can happen on a smaller level. You might not think of it as vendetta though, but if someone done you really wrong, and you're like, I'm gonna get that person back by doing this and six months and they least expected that's a vendetta. But you you don't call it a vendetta. It's just uh, well in in Italy, they it's just come up it, sir, Um, I'm gonna get you suck a bad people do that though. There was a word for it though in medieval and Renaissance Europe, in the Messiah, which is Latin for un friendship, it was a legal term for hating somebody. Okay, so what we've done is established that hatred is definitely a thing that's been around a long time. Is that what we've done? Yeah, and chuck, of course it's still around, um in recent modern history. There's other examples that we could go into, like hate groups. Yeah, well, let's talk about the Nazis real quick, because again we talked about fascism and one of the tenets of it being, um, I guess, inciting other group to hate. Yeah, group hate. That's that's where we are for sure. And a lot of that that gave a lot of a body of data for people to study and that they're still studying. But um, one guy in particular named Martin Oppenheimer, is a sociologist from Rutgers University. UM. It was basically said, like, look, the Nazis are proof positive that you can number one, get an entire group to hate another group, and that you do this by um identifying and exploiting the group that you're with their frustrations, say unemployment, joblessness, and then basically saying, those are the people who are at fault. That's how you store the pot exactly. That's how you incite hatred, which is gotta be one of the worst things you can do. One of the worst non violent acts I think a person commit is insite hatred, you know. Yeah. And also I thought what came to mind to me when I was reading this was some of these same tactics, like a marginalized people, people who are in a cure, who are seeking safety somewhere. It's also the kind of the same thing they do with the cults and the brainwashing. They're seeking out these same types of people and saying, hey, you feel marginalized, you feel like you're not loved, you need a safe haven. But they're not saying go hate someone else. They're saying, just come and be with our group, well, our our association of like in group and out group is like this emotional psychological razor blade that can be exploited in any number of ways exactly, you know, but it's always a marginalized people. It seems like yeah, yeah, or there, But you mean the people who are stirred, who have hatred stirred up in them. Yeah, or go join a cult or something like that. Yeah, you mean teenagers? And uh, well, at Stanford study in two thousand and ten basically said hey, if you want to um teach teenagers to hate, here's how you do it. You can't just overtly say go hate this group, you know, hate Muslims, hate black people, hate Jewish people, hate gays. You can't just say that it's not good enough. But if you tell a story that basically implies this is these are people you should hate and here's why, right, like um, homosexuals or Petter asks, and so you know you can't let them into certain groups, and by the way, you should hate them because of the story. Right then I think that I had a problem with that one because it was like, that's true for everything. If you tell the story, it's gonna hit home or personally to somebody. Yeah, you can't say, hey, go love uh Sea Biscuit because he ran a horse race that was pretty neat. But if you tell the story of Sea Biscuit all of a sudden, you're gonna leave that thing going. Man, I'm getting my butt to the Kentucky Derby next year because I love me some horse racing. I love Sea Biscuit. See he saw the movie, right, No, I didn't um the But the funny thing is is that that whole that study made the careers of two Stanford researchers so right. But they do have a point because they point out in this article, or they don't, but we do. Um. D W. Griffith's awful um movie awful on content. Birth of a Nation from nineteen fifteen. It's no Sea Biscuit. It's no Sea Biscuit, but it did a really good job of getting people to hate black people in the United States. Yeah, doesn't it feature like the Well, since it was nineteen fifteen, it's like the first and everything. But it's like the first on screen rape uh or implied rape. There was a rape of a white woman by like an escaped slave I think by a white actor in black Face of course at the time, and um, it was a big, huge movie. It grows ten million dollars in nineteen fifteen. That's two hundred million. That's two sixteen million dollars today, is what grows. Yeah. And it was based on a play, Yeah, it is. This based on a play in a book called The Klansman. And d W. Griffith felt so bad about this afterward that he made a follow up film that you're called Intolerance, which was a three hour silent film meditation on uh four parallel stories of man's intolerance throughout history. Oh. I didn't know he did that. That's good, Yeah, because I want to like d W. Griffith. Yeah, I mean, he didn't write Birth of the Nation, so he directed it. Not like getting him off the hook or anything, but I think at the time he was just trying to make a movie that sold lot of tickets and that was the way to do it. Yeah, that's the way to do it. And then the Nazi of course, anyone who saw Inglorious Bastards knows that Gebel's, Joseph Gebel's was in charge of, you know, the propaganda department with feature films, and they had one called Judd Seuss. Is it Judd or you'd probably it'd be you'd seous. So you're the one who speaks to German. And how did you say Judd Seuss? I don't know. I was concentrating on the umlaut part and that's just okay. So yeah, but that featured a main character, a Jewish main character who was shunned by a gentile woman and so he raped her, among other things, and it was required viewing for the Stormtroopers. They loved it. And then they give him crystal meth. Really yeah, from what I understand, that will do it. Um. And that didn't just go out with the Nazis. UM media has been playing like more and more of a role UM among I guess hate groups tred as a as a concept and as a practice, right yeah, because um, I think in the nineties, Uh, Bosnian Serb TV showed UM something that's kind of referred to now as like a basically hate mongering UM series called Genocide that stir up emotion against the Bosnian Muslims. Right yeah, uh and and uh, well you know what happened with that in the Balkan War. Yeah. Alqaed has done similar things on the web. Obviously, the web is a good place to to go try and get this thing done these days. And they have chat rooms, they have terrans. With Facebook's becoming increasingly um available for people who have UM hate based ideologies. Um, and Facebook is like, look, we can't we can't do. I mean, we'll find them and shut them down and when we when we can, but like they're all over the place. Yeah, um and then uh also chuck pop music. Yeah, they called the pop music. And the reason I know I can't call it pop music, it's because I've seen some of those specials and I saw really good when I can't remember on neo Nazis and they have you know, they have musical groups that are neo Nazi songs and they just sing about hating other people and it's you know, it's aggressive music. It's not it's not pop. There's no sense. No, it's not handsome. So um chuck. The article begs a pretty um interesting question. I think um is hate a mental illness, because you know, don't you have to be slightly mentally ill to burn down a house with an entire family trapped inside? Or maybe you're just following orders? Okay, Yeah, excellent. I think you just hit upon it. Our understanding of hate is incomplete, because our understanding of the things that we do that we associate with hate is also incomplete. Are you just following orders? Are you being whipped up into a mob mentality? Do you actually hate this other group because you lost your job? Or is this emotion just being exploited by someone else, a third party? Um? I I And also I think our understanding of mental illness isn't refined enough to say yes, hates the product of a mental illness. Sure, because they referenced Um Hitler and Osama bin Laden as two people they suspect might have been mentally ill um or at least anti social. And they also referenced the Columbine shooters as one of them suffered from depression and they had these hate filled rants that they ended up finding. And was there a link between that depression and hatred? Right? And I guess the the that begs the question like did they were they? So? Was Osama bin Laden and Hitler and Dylan Klebold like so wrapped up in hatred that they were crazy? Or was um hatred a byproduct of you know, any mental illness? They may or may not have had. These are questions we don't know. But my whole idea that hatred is brought out when you are um mistreated by someone else is backed up by a two thousand study of people from Kosovo and those who have gone through the most trauma and stress hated the Serbian troops who'd um you know, borne that out on them more than other people who maybe had pleasant exchanges with Serbian troops. I guess that makes sense. We gotta mention hate crimes and hate groups briefly. Hate crime is obviously a crime carried out against somebody based on their skin color, their ethnicity, their national origin, their gender, disability, sexual orientation. Is when you hear a lot about yeah disabilities, A sad one because it took a while to um get that into hate crime bills. Oh really yeah interesting, but the Congress is past legislation now that makes hate crimes more serious offenses than just like a regular assault. Well yeah, which is pretty awesome. Yeah, and how it should be. I remember, um we in the there was a child safety law that was being passed in two thousands six, and there was a hate crime language that was attached to it that made um sexual orientation crimes hate crimes on a federal level, and there's a big outrage about it among religious groups. Do you remember that. I think they were like, wait, we have a First Amendment freedom to hate gay people as part of our religion. You know, so you're you're saying that that that in and of itself is a hate crime. By saying like, no, these people are wrong, homosexuality is bad, it's wrong, that kind of thing, um, And that they thought that that kind of infringed on it, which I don't think it does, but that was their argument for a while. I don't think it worked. Interesting. Yeah, uh so I have a list here first, Josh, and then we have a couple more little stats um about hate groups since two thousand. The Southern Pretty Low Center claims that the US hate groups in the US has grown by more than and since since two thousand. Yeah, and they had the top five states with the biggest concentrations of hate groups. And this one was continued on the next page. And when I was reading it, I was like, please, Georgia, don't be on there, Please don't be on there. And it's not and we will count them down from five to create suspense Idaho is number five for hate groups. Evidently Wyoming is number four. You got Arkansas is number three, Mississippi is number two. Two from the south, and then um, number one according to the Southern Poverty Law Center is Montana. Yep, that's you know, Montana. Grab your guns, fellas. Yeah, there's a lot of Melissias in Montana. Yeah, but there's also a lot of like super chill cool like fly fish and uh, microbrew drinking hippies out there. It's an interesting mix. And I spent time there and I saw both in this town. That was I could feel the friction even between those groups, like with an Indian burn. Yeah, Like I was like I was out in a saloon and having a good time with some locals, and then a couple of like cowboys came in that didn't like the people from l A being in there, and you could, like definitely sense there's two different types of people in Montana. There's probably wasn't two, but I'm generalizing. No, there's two. There's just two. Okay, hate groups and hippies. So um, chuck, you've got some stance for us. Uh yeah, you dug this upright on who people hate? Acquaintances friends, family members twelve percent. That's sad, ex boyfriends and girlfriends twelve percent. And within the family, it's fathers are hated the most, at mothers at in laws, and siblings at three percent. That's kind of sweet. That's surprising to me, though, I would think siblings would be the highest because they're the ones that beat the tar out of you most frequently in most families. All right, so do you hate people? That's let's finish up with that. Um. I've found that the best way to hate somebody is to just check them off. So usual you'll write someone off but not have that active hatred. I I don't generally like I will just be like I can't believe you wore that sweater, you fat pig idiot in my head, But it's usually because I'm in like a bad mood about something else. Like, I don't walk around just actively hating people. It's a waste of time. It's a total waste of time. I don't I don't think I ever hated anybody at a situation and an ex girlfriend shacked up with one of one of my best friends after I moved state and we were broken up quote unquote, But I also was like, I'm coming back for you, like, you know, this isn't over. Were you going to find work? And California on West in my in my wagon? And they shacked up pretty quick after I left, and I had like a few years of like bad dreams and periodic bad dreams. I wasn't like every day I woke up thinking about it, but it faded away. But it was never even hate. It was just like, man, I gotta do that. Really, yeah, It's just just like that's that sucks. Don't do that, friends. That's that's one end of the spectrum. The other end of the spectrum is like people who go and like kill those people, those two people, well yeah, and that's like former famous football stars, and that's that. I think it's all in the wiring. You're wired a certain way, and I'm not wired to to indulge those kinds of things. I suspect that all has to do with the amygdala, you know. All right, Well, if you want to learn more about the amygdala, you can type that word into the search bar at how stuff works dot com. You can also type in the word hate to bring up the article that we worked off of today. I should point out to Josh that I made with the dude years later and uh never made right with a girl. What does that say. I think it says that you hated the girl more. I just never felt the need to drudge that back up with her. But the dude, I was like, Man, you can't have like an old friend that you're not friends with anymore, at least I can't. I don't like that stuff. Yeah, man, I don't like that hanging over my head. Okay, try to make it right. That's what I say. You've done. Now I'm done. Sorry anyway, I think did I even say handy search part? You totally threw me off? All right, well, handy search bar? How stuff? First dot com? I said that, Chuck, So that means it's your turn for listener mail. Yes, Josh, this is on suicide bombing, and this Nick brings up a very good point that I think kind of fits in with this podcast. Hi, guys and Jerry. I think y'all are very brave for taking on the issue of suicide bombing. I don't know about brave, but I appreciate it. I don't want to contribute too much to the delusion of anils, but I would like to say, you could have more explicitly underscored something that I believe is key to understanding suicide bombing and terrorism in general, both our weapons of the weak and the believer, sort of like our hate thing. Okay do you agree? Um? Yeah, well, I mean we've been said it's suicide bomb or cost about a hundred and fifty bucks exactly. He points out, if Palestinians, for instance, had access to predator drones and guided missile systems rather than rocks and slingshots, I don't think that Palestinians would resort to martyrdom. I would also point to suicide bombings carried out by the viet Men during the French occupation of Vietnam, or the example of Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka, both of which movements were secular in nature. All I want to say is it seems like suicide bombings is a phenomenon often arising from situations in which there is a huge asymmetry of power between an occupying or apartheid resime regime or a native or a press popular Asian. You guys did mention this, but I think this dimension is at least as important to the issue as religion or notions of martyrdom um. That is sincerely from Nick and I kind of agree Nick, and Nick is a sharp tack. It's like right on the money. Yeah, thanks for that one. Wow. Okay, well, if you think you're a sharp tack, we want to hear from you, right, Chuck, that's right, send us an email about anything at all, Anything at all. Two Stuff podcast at how stuff works dot com. Be sure to check out our new video podcast, Stuff from the Future. Join how Stuff Work staff as we explore the most promising and perplexing possibilities of tomorrow, brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are you

Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray. It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff you should know from house Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. With me is always a chipper and cheerful Charles W. Chuck Bryant Man, I'm going ten different directions, buddy. Yeah, I'm a little screwy, are you. Yeah, we'll focus on this one. Okay, okay, because we're going on in one direction, and that's hate. I hate to focus. Okay. You hate broccoli. I do hate broccoli, and you know that. I also hate peas, like split peas. I remember declaring um as a child that peas are some of my most hated enemies. I think a lot of kids don't like peas because they're mushy. Yeah. Well that's the problem with all vegetables. Really, they're mushy, they're overcooked if you cook something. No, I've had pretty nasty broccoli. But broccoli, it's all that's separate. It's just disgusting in every single way. But cream spinach, I love that. It's awesome. Yeah, that's good stuff. You and I shared a cream spinach at Morton steak. That's recently two ladies. Yeah, it was something we couldn't even finish. It was so rich. It was really good, So Chuck, we don't hate cream spinach, I hate broccoli and um. One of the things I hate more than anything else is not having an intro, which I don't because I was looking online and strangely they're The online world is a repository for hate in a certain way, as in like, um, neo Nazi punk bands not huh, this article calls it pop music pop music, yeah, um, or you know Facebook groups dedicated to hate, like you know, Holocaust denial and that kind of stuff. Sure, Um, but this word is so ubiquitous in our culture that there was nothing there. Like I found a guy um and dairy and mass who was accused of hate crime. Um, everybody wants to know why, um, Cleveland fans hate Lebron. I can answer that. But I mean, like, we throw this word around like the you know, some reality TV series was the show you love to hate? Right? Um. We we use this word a lot. But yeah, I found a study out of the University of Texas that that asked people how often they hated and um, nobody said every day. It's not an everyday thing. So like we we hate things mc brockley, but we also realized that there's a real distinction between hating something and experiencing actual hate. You hit it on the head, and this is a pretty old distinction, right, Like, like philosophers have have been aware of this before. I think Aristotle was pretty sure he hated peas, but he really hated him Lock. Yeah. He and he's not Webster, so I will read his definition because he's Aristotle. Uh. He said it was a dislike for someone based on our negative perception of that person's nature. That is so intense that whoever feels it wants to cause real harm to another, Like I really want to harm you. Yeah, so that's the difference, Like Pete, like you said, people throw that word around. I hate broccoli, but you're not gonna go out and try and burn down broccoli farms. No, I know that's silly. I'm not gonna go burn down Cubby BROCCOLI's family's broccoli farm. It was used to fund the James Bond movies. But Josh, I think, and this is me surmising in my own personal purview, I think there are kind of two types of hate, well three types really. Then one type that you just throw the word around like I hate that show, I hate broccoli. One that is real hate, which I think is fear based when you don't know someone personally or a group personally, where you hate a group of people. And then there's like the anger retribution based hate, like someone personally has wronged you so badly that you hate them and and cause and either want to cause or which ill upon them. Right, Well, you just brought up a huge can of worms by using the word anger. Like there's a real debate over whether hate and anger are the same thing, right, right, They say they're not. It depends on who you talk to. But the people who say they're not say things like UM, hate is brought on by humiliation or ill treatment or being devalued. Where anger is brought on when you're when you're treated UM in a way that you consider unfairly. Right, right, anger is the result of UM not having any recourse. Right, frustration perhaps coupled with that right and that that kind of dances along the border because people who hate, you know, other groups often are frustrated. Like when we talked about the fast sism in the fascism podcast Getting Um Getting groups all riled up against a scapegoat is one of the tenets of fascism, right, And so these people are frustrated at their lot in life, their unemployments high because of the Jews or something like that, Right, But really they're not. They're they're angry about their job while they hate the Jews. So the two are really intertwined. But there's a lot of people think if you look at them deeply enough, they're not one and the same. Well, I think a lot of times that kind of hate is displaced anger and frustration at your own you know. Yeah, but there is there is also a very um strong physiological basis to it as well. I mean, it's an emotion supposedly, although it's not one of the basic emotions. Anger is Yeah, what are the basic emotions? Anger? Joy, fear discussed and peckishness. I thought it was joy, pain, sunshine and rain. No is that Rob bass No? I can't remember. I could sing it, but I can't remember sing it. No, no, no, I think it's Rob Basse. No it was it was a duo. Oh no, no, I'm thinking of uh, I want money, lots and lots of money. That was a duo to be rich. Remember that stupid song? Yeah, kind of. They wrote a song about being rich. Oh yeah, how great it was, and that was their only song. So unless they were already rich than they never were from that song that makes sense. Yeah, it does just blew my mind, buddy. So do you hate that song? Uh? I do now because it's in my head. So, Chuck, what is this um physiological basis of anger? Well, it's pointed out in the article within an Iron Maiden song, which I thought was an odd choice. There's a thin line between love and hate. Yeah, It's like there's a whole other song called There's a thin Line between Love and Hate. Well, there's a much more popular song, I think, the Persuaders, which was It's a thin line between Love and hate, the old Motown song. Right. Have you ever heard the Pretender's version of it? No, it's hands down the greatest version ever. Really is a thin yea between love and Hey, the Pretenders covered the Persuaders and yep, all right, I'm telling you all right. So apparently Iron Maiden actually listen to that song on YouTube the other day and it's a it's an Iron Maiden song. Yeah, now I looked it up to make sure that Iron maidenheading covered the persuaders, and uh no, Bruce Dickinson came up with his own lyrics, his own version. He's like, that one's fine. I'm doing this one. That's right. So the point of all this, Josh, is that there is a thin line between love and hate as far as uh the brain goes. Because um, in two thousand and eight, there was a study at the University College of London and that's in the UK, and um, they got seventeen people, not very wide ranging. I had a lot of problems with this study, but they got seventeen people who say they hated someone else. Maybe that's why they maybe have a hard time finding someone who hates someone else. Maybe not because I don't hate anyone. I was about to ask you that. Well, we'll get to the personal stuff in a minute. So this study, what they did was they found seventeen people who hated someone else, threw them under the old wonder machine and looked showed him pictures of the people they hated. Which is so funny to record the results. I guess they're like, you need to bring pictures of people you hate. For the study, Yeah, they could have just said think of the person you hate, I think, and it would achieve the same goal, I guess. So anyway, they what they found out was that a couple of regions in the brain there's like a hate circuit. They call it there the pudament okay, and the Jerry laughed at that, and the insular cortex in both fired up with pictures of people that they hated, right, And the significance of this is that both of those regions also fire up when you see picture or think about someone you love, which is the longest way to say. It's a thin line between Lemon hates, right, and I think everybody kind of senses that. It's like um when passions flaring are it's virtually the same thing. There are two sides of one coin. In my opinion, if you truly hate somebody, the real hate to fear is not one where somebody's like, oh I hate you so much, you know, because that that can be turned. That means that they have some sort of emotional connection to you. The one to be afraid of is the detached, calm, cool kind of hatred, because that's the one where you end up dead somewhere like I'm the Green River killer and I hate prostitutes. Well, that brings up an interesting sidebar, right, Um, do serial killers hate their victims? No? End of sidebar. Well, they have long said that serial killers don't experience emotion on that scale, but they're starting to uh to change their thinking in certain cases because a lot of serial killers suffer from antisocial personality disorder, and people who suffer from that experience a range of emotions. So it's not always I think it's it's both. You know that not you can't say every serial killer it's the same. Well, they've been saying that for a long time. They've been trying to find the threads that connect them. And I told you about the sociologist I talked to. He was just really up in arms that psychology has spent for decades or so looking at serial killers and investing come up with his anti personal any social personality disorder. He's like, of course they have a personality disorder, they're serial killers. That's a good point. So back to that study though, about the brain and the difference between love and hate, and they did see, um, a difference, a key difference because the areas of the frontal cortex associated with judgment and critical thinking become less active when you see someone you love of on the f m R I machine, But when you saw someone you hate, most of your frontal cortex cortex cortex is active, remains active. Yeah, so that's a big difference. But that makes sense as well, Chuck, because I mean, if you see I know, you don't hate anybody, so you wouldn't understand this. But when you see someone you hate, you just like it's a personality, you just you you you tend to criticize them in your head, like, oh, you're wearing that sweater today. You look so fat and stupid in that sweater. I hope you somehow get did you strangle yourself on that sweater? Yeah? So the point is that it takes like hatred is an active thing. It's an active rumination on this. It's not a knee jerk thing like when you might see a picture of someone you love. All right, So that's interesting, right, that's what that study came up with the set of the seventeen people. Yeah, with the this Yeah, it couldn't get you know. And the other problem is I'm sure they were um weird western educated Uh deed something rich and developed carrel, what the eye stands for? And what would you just spell weird? It's basically like the idea that all of these studies that cited are cited. A lot of them are they're just college kids. So it's like this really narrow niche of the human population that they extrapolate onto good point and in this case they just use seventeen of them. Well, we're here to report it and then criticize it, and we're done. We did both, that's right. Uh. What what's the deal with like old hate? Though? Like don't they have some inclination of like early hate with Caveman and the like? Well, yeah, because parts of the you know, the closer to the center or the brain stem that you get in the brain, the more ancient that part of the brain is. And if there's a region like the pew tamin that's associated with a certain thing e g. Hate, then that means that hate's been around for a very long time because they are part of the brain. Uh has been able to carry out that function for this song or should ostensibly got you right, but then it's also new with the prefrontal cortex which is a fairly newer aspect. So maybe we just hated, but we didn't criticize. We just hated. And they think possibly that we developed hate as a species or a capacity to hate as a survival mechanism way back in hunter gatherer days, where we could feel justified by say, taking food from another group because we hated them, which I actually found pretty that's a pretty inspiring idea. Yeah, that you had to work up hate enough to go in pillage. I think that's kind of neat because it makes it seem like we aren't naturally hateful beings, and I don't think we are. I believe everybody had hate, and everyone has a vast capacity to hate, but I don't I wouldn't characterize this as generally hateful. That's good. I'm kind of surprised to hear you say that that's true though. Alright, So, uh, it's in the Bible, Josh, It's an ancient text all over the place. Hate's been around a long time. M Right. We canna talk about Carthage, Yeah, because I know you love this. The Carthaginian general, Hannibal Carthaginian, and you gotta stop that Hannibal pledged to his father, Dad, I hate Rome, I hate Romans. I don't like the Italians. I hate them forever, and I will swear retribution because they have seized our provinces. He said, father, yes, son, I'm going to kill the Romans. And he did. He made good on that, invaded Italy and did quite a bit of damage. Of course, the Romans fired back because they hate the Carthage. Why can't say that word? They hated people from Carthage, the Carthagenians, and in one PC they did some pretty bad things like burning them in their houses while they screamed. But does that hate, like, I don't know, And that's a I think that's an issue that I have um here there with this is that there? That's kind of a jump to conclusion, Like is it hate? I don't know. It does hate form the basis for war or horrible acts in war? Well, I don't know, because it's it's condemned pretty much in like the New Testament in the Bible, it's condemned in the Koran. Uh, let not hatred of the people incite you not to act equitably, And in uh Medieval and Renaissance Europe you came up in you but in Italy they came up with the vendetta, which is uh, very much retribution for the hatred. There you go, I I let's see, that's what I'm saying. Like I think, let's say a Roman soldier comes to your town while you're away using the the latrine pit that your village has dug, and they burn your family alive in your house while you're using the bathroom. And you come back and you see the Roman legions going away and your family is dead, burned the crisps. Right. Um. I don't think the Romans necessarily felt hatred to commit that act, but that act would incite hatred in the person that it befell. So I think of vendetta is an excellent example of hatred because somebody done, you're wrong and you're gonna get back at them, or they did something to your father or something you The vendetta is very long lasting from what I understand. Yeah, and it's not I mean, this is obviously we're talking about mafia vendetta's and war vendetta's, but it can happen on a smaller level. You might not think of it as vendetta though, but if someone done you really wrong, and you're like, I'm gonna get that person back by doing this and six months and they least expected that's a vendetta. But you you don't call it a vendetta. It's just uh, well in in Italy, they it's just come up it, sir, Um, I'm gonna get you suck a bad people do that though. There was a word for it though in medieval and Renaissance Europe, in the Messiah, which is Latin for un friendship, it was a legal term for hating somebody. Okay, so what we've done is established that hatred is definitely a thing that's been around a long time. Is that what we've done? Yeah, and chuck, of course it's still around, um in recent modern history. There's other examples that we could go into, like hate groups. Yeah, well, let's talk about the Nazis real quick, because again we talked about fascism and one of the tenets of it being, um, I guess, inciting other group to hate. Yeah, group hate. That's that's where we are for sure. And a lot of that that gave a lot of a body of data for people to study and that they're still studying. But um, one guy in particular named Martin Oppenheimer, is a sociologist from Rutgers University. UM. It was basically said, like, look, the Nazis are proof positive that you can number one, get an entire group to hate another group, and that you do this by um identifying and exploiting the group that you're with their frustrations, say unemployment, joblessness, and then basically saying, those are the people who are at fault. That's how you store the pot exactly. That's how you incite hatred, which is gotta be one of the worst things you can do. One of the worst non violent acts I think a person commit is insite hatred, you know. Yeah. And also I thought what came to mind to me when I was reading this was some of these same tactics, like a marginalized people, people who are in a cure, who are seeking safety somewhere. It's also the kind of the same thing they do with the cults and the brainwashing. They're seeking out these same types of people and saying, hey, you feel marginalized, you feel like you're not loved, you need a safe haven. But they're not saying go hate someone else. They're saying, just come and be with our group, well, our our association of like in group and out group is like this emotional psychological razor blade that can be exploited in any number of ways exactly, you know, but it's always a marginalized people. It seems like yeah, yeah, or there, But you mean the people who are stirred, who have hatred stirred up in them. Yeah, or go join a cult or something like that. Yeah, you mean teenagers? And uh, well, at Stanford study in two thousand and ten basically said hey, if you want to um teach teenagers to hate, here's how you do it. You can't just overtly say go hate this group, you know, hate Muslims, hate black people, hate Jewish people, hate gays. You can't just say that it's not good enough. But if you tell a story that basically implies this is these are people you should hate and here's why, right, like um, homosexuals or Petter asks, and so you know you can't let them into certain groups, and by the way, you should hate them because of the story. Right then I think that I had a problem with that one because it was like, that's true for everything. If you tell the story, it's gonna hit home or personally to somebody. Yeah, you can't say, hey, go love uh Sea Biscuit because he ran a horse race that was pretty neat. But if you tell the story of Sea Biscuit all of a sudden, you're gonna leave that thing going. Man, I'm getting my butt to the Kentucky Derby next year because I love me some horse racing. I love Sea Biscuit. See he saw the movie, right, No, I didn't um the But the funny thing is is that that whole that study made the careers of two Stanford researchers so right. But they do have a point because they point out in this article, or they don't, but we do. Um. D W. Griffith's awful um movie awful on content. Birth of a Nation from nineteen fifteen. It's no Sea Biscuit. It's no Sea Biscuit, but it did a really good job of getting people to hate black people in the United States. Yeah, doesn't it feature like the Well, since it was nineteen fifteen, it's like the first and everything. But it's like the first on screen rape uh or implied rape. There was a rape of a white woman by like an escaped slave I think by a white actor in black Face of course at the time, and um, it was a big, huge movie. It grows ten million dollars in nineteen fifteen. That's two hundred million. That's two sixteen million dollars today, is what grows. Yeah. And it was based on a play, Yeah, it is. This based on a play in a book called The Klansman. And d W. Griffith felt so bad about this afterward that he made a follow up film that you're called Intolerance, which was a three hour silent film meditation on uh four parallel stories of man's intolerance throughout history. Oh. I didn't know he did that. That's good, Yeah, because I want to like d W. Griffith. Yeah, I mean, he didn't write Birth of the Nation, so he directed it. Not like getting him off the hook or anything, but I think at the time he was just trying to make a movie that sold lot of tickets and that was the way to do it. Yeah, that's the way to do it. And then the Nazi of course, anyone who saw Inglorious Bastards knows that Gebel's, Joseph Gebel's was in charge of, you know, the propaganda department with feature films, and they had one called Judd Seuss. Is it Judd or you'd probably it'd be you'd seous. So you're the one who speaks to German. And how did you say Judd Seuss? I don't know. I was concentrating on the umlaut part and that's just okay. So yeah, but that featured a main character, a Jewish main character who was shunned by a gentile woman and so he raped her, among other things, and it was required viewing for the Stormtroopers. They loved it. And then they give him crystal meth. Really yeah, from what I understand, that will do it. Um. And that didn't just go out with the Nazis. UM media has been playing like more and more of a role UM among I guess hate groups tred as a as a concept and as a practice, right yeah, because um, I think in the nineties, Uh, Bosnian Serb TV showed UM something that's kind of referred to now as like a basically hate mongering UM series called Genocide that stir up emotion against the Bosnian Muslims. Right yeah, uh and and uh, well you know what happened with that in the Balkan War. Yeah. Alqaed has done similar things on the web. Obviously, the web is a good place to to go try and get this thing done these days. And they have chat rooms, they have terrans. With Facebook's becoming increasingly um available for people who have UM hate based ideologies. Um, and Facebook is like, look, we can't we can't do. I mean, we'll find them and shut them down and when we when we can, but like they're all over the place. Yeah, um and then uh also chuck pop music. Yeah, they called the pop music. And the reason I know I can't call it pop music, it's because I've seen some of those specials and I saw really good when I can't remember on neo Nazis and they have you know, they have musical groups that are neo Nazi songs and they just sing about hating other people and it's you know, it's aggressive music. It's not it's not pop. There's no sense. No, it's not handsome. So um chuck. The article begs a pretty um interesting question. I think um is hate a mental illness, because you know, don't you have to be slightly mentally ill to burn down a house with an entire family trapped inside? Or maybe you're just following orders? Okay, Yeah, excellent. I think you just hit upon it. Our understanding of hate is incomplete, because our understanding of the things that we do that we associate with hate is also incomplete. Are you just following orders? Are you being whipped up into a mob mentality? Do you actually hate this other group because you lost your job? Or is this emotion just being exploited by someone else, a third party? Um? I I And also I think our understanding of mental illness isn't refined enough to say yes, hates the product of a mental illness. Sure, because they referenced Um Hitler and Osama bin Laden as two people they suspect might have been mentally ill um or at least anti social. And they also referenced the Columbine shooters as one of them suffered from depression and they had these hate filled rants that they ended up finding. And was there a link between that depression and hatred? Right? And I guess the the that begs the question like did they were they? So? Was Osama bin Laden and Hitler and Dylan Klebold like so wrapped up in hatred that they were crazy? Or was um hatred a byproduct of you know, any mental illness? They may or may not have had. These are questions we don't know. But my whole idea that hatred is brought out when you are um mistreated by someone else is backed up by a two thousand study of people from Kosovo and those who have gone through the most trauma and stress hated the Serbian troops who'd um you know, borne that out on them more than other people who maybe had pleasant exchanges with Serbian troops. I guess that makes sense. We gotta mention hate crimes and hate groups briefly. Hate crime is obviously a crime carried out against somebody based on their skin color, their ethnicity, their national origin, their gender, disability, sexual orientation. Is when you hear a lot about yeah disabilities, A sad one because it took a while to um get that into hate crime bills. Oh really yeah interesting, but the Congress is past legislation now that makes hate crimes more serious offenses than just like a regular assault. Well yeah, which is pretty awesome. Yeah, and how it should be. I remember, um we in the there was a child safety law that was being passed in two thousands six, and there was a hate crime language that was attached to it that made um sexual orientation crimes hate crimes on a federal level, and there's a big outrage about it among religious groups. Do you remember that. I think they were like, wait, we have a First Amendment freedom to hate gay people as part of our religion. You know, so you're you're saying that that that in and of itself is a hate crime. By saying like, no, these people are wrong, homosexuality is bad, it's wrong, that kind of thing, um, And that they thought that that kind of infringed on it, which I don't think it does, but that was their argument for a while. I don't think it worked. Interesting. Yeah, uh so I have a list here first, Josh, and then we have a couple more little stats um about hate groups since two thousand. The Southern Pretty Low Center claims that the US hate groups in the US has grown by more than and since since two thousand. Yeah, and they had the top five states with the biggest concentrations of hate groups. And this one was continued on the next page. And when I was reading it, I was like, please, Georgia, don't be on there, Please don't be on there. And it's not and we will count them down from five to create suspense Idaho is number five for hate groups. Evidently Wyoming is number four. You got Arkansas is number three, Mississippi is number two. Two from the south, and then um, number one according to the Southern Poverty Law Center is Montana. Yep, that's you know, Montana. Grab your guns, fellas. Yeah, there's a lot of Melissias in Montana. Yeah, but there's also a lot of like super chill cool like fly fish and uh, microbrew drinking hippies out there. It's an interesting mix. And I spent time there and I saw both in this town. That was I could feel the friction even between those groups, like with an Indian burn. Yeah, Like I was like I was out in a saloon and having a good time with some locals, and then a couple of like cowboys came in that didn't like the people from l A being in there, and you could, like definitely sense there's two different types of people in Montana. There's probably wasn't two, but I'm generalizing. No, there's two. There's just two. Okay, hate groups and hippies. So um, chuck, you've got some stance for us. Uh yeah, you dug this upright on who people hate? Acquaintances friends, family members twelve percent. That's sad, ex boyfriends and girlfriends twelve percent. And within the family, it's fathers are hated the most, at mothers at in laws, and siblings at three percent. That's kind of sweet. That's surprising to me, though, I would think siblings would be the highest because they're the ones that beat the tar out of you most frequently in most families. All right, so do you hate people? That's let's finish up with that. Um. I've found that the best way to hate somebody is to just check them off. So usual you'll write someone off but not have that active hatred. I I don't generally like I will just be like I can't believe you wore that sweater, you fat pig idiot in my head, But it's usually because I'm in like a bad mood about something else. Like, I don't walk around just actively hating people. It's a waste of time. It's a total waste of time. I don't I don't think I ever hated anybody at a situation and an ex girlfriend shacked up with one of one of my best friends after I moved state and we were broken up quote unquote, But I also was like, I'm coming back for you, like, you know, this isn't over. Were you going to find work? And California on West in my in my wagon? And they shacked up pretty quick after I left, and I had like a few years of like bad dreams and periodic bad dreams. I wasn't like every day I woke up thinking about it, but it faded away. But it was never even hate. It was just like, man, I gotta do that. Really, yeah, It's just just like that's that sucks. Don't do that, friends. That's that's one end of the spectrum. The other end of the spectrum is like people who go and like kill those people, those two people, well yeah, and that's like former famous football stars, and that's that. I think it's all in the wiring. You're wired a certain way, and I'm not wired to to indulge those kinds of things. I suspect that all has to do with the amygdala, you know. All right, Well, if you want to learn more about the amygdala, you can type that word into the search bar at how stuff works dot com. You can also type in the word hate to bring up the article that we worked off of today. I should point out to Josh that I made with the dude years later and uh never made right with a girl. What does that say. I think it says that you hated the girl more. I just never felt the need to drudge that back up with her. But the dude, I was like, Man, you can't have like an old friend that you're not friends with anymore, at least I can't. I don't like that stuff. Yeah, man, I don't like that hanging over my head. Okay, try to make it right. That's what I say. You've done. Now I'm done. Sorry anyway, I think did I even say handy search part? You totally threw me off? All right, well, handy search bar? How stuff? First dot com? I said that, Chuck, So that means it's your turn for listener mail. Yes, Josh, this is on suicide bombing, and this Nick brings up a very good point that I think kind of fits in with this podcast. Hi, guys and Jerry. I think y'all are very brave for taking on the issue of suicide bombing. I don't know about brave, but I appreciate it. I don't want to contribute too much to the delusion of anils, but I would like to say, you could have more explicitly underscored something that I believe is key to understanding suicide bombing and terrorism in general, both our weapons of the weak and the believer, sort of like our hate thing. Okay do you agree? Um? Yeah, well, I mean we've been said it's suicide bomb or cost about a hundred and fifty bucks exactly. He points out, if Palestinians, for instance, had access to predator drones and guided missile systems rather than rocks and slingshots, I don't think that Palestinians would resort to martyrdom. I would also point to suicide bombings carried out by the viet Men during the French occupation of Vietnam, or the example of Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka, both of which movements were secular in nature. All I want to say is it seems like suicide bombings is a phenomenon often arising from situations in which there is a huge asymmetry of power between an occupying or apartheid resime regime or a native or a press popular Asian. You guys did mention this, but I think this dimension is at least as important to the issue as religion or notions of martyrdom um. That is sincerely from Nick and I kind of agree Nick, and Nick is a sharp tack. It's like right on the money. Yeah, thanks for that one. Wow. Okay, well, if you think you're a sharp tack, we want to hear from you, right, Chuck, that's right, send us an email about anything at all, Anything at all. Two Stuff podcast at how stuff works dot com. Be sure to check out our new video podcast, Stuff from the Future. Join how Stuff Work staff as we explore the most promising and perplexing possibilities of tomorrow, brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are you