Hell! Hell! Hell!

Published Jan 12, 2021, 10:00 AM

What is Hell? It's complicated and depends on which religion you're talking about. We dive into this fiery mess and do our best to explain it.

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Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles w St. Chuck Bryant uh, and st. Jerome Rowland is out there as well. I'm not a staying I'm sinner. Uh. And this is stuff you should know. The first real episode of the New Year, it is Chuck. It's uh beyond the future now, It's that's so futuristic, no one ever even used it in a sci fi book. That's right. We we had our are what we like to call our elementary school Christmas break, which means it's about three and a half weeks long. We worked hard for that. We do, so you better treat us, right. That's that's right. How was your holiday? Good? It was good. I've I finally got to just kind of disconnect and decouple and just relax. And it was not Actually I went I went the entire time without cracking my computer open. I was really proud of that. Yeah, I couldn't believe it. Like I did stuff on my phone that I needed to, but I just there was a ban on opening my laptops, even just for funzies. Yeah, no, poin didn't. I didn't want to write. I didn't want to see uh computer or a keyboard for a little while, and I was able to do it. Yeah, that I just did. The porn was all just like I just made drawings myself, right, flip books. I uh loved doing things in my laptop. But I was proud of myself for not looking at any work emails. I did a little bit at first, because, as you know, some buttoning up into the year stuff. But then I was just like, you know what, and you know what I put as my I mean, you've seen my occasional auto reply, which is, uh, if it's an emergency, please realize that there are no podcast emergency, which is sort of true. It's I think true. Actually. And you got your slide whistle. I did. I don't have it with me right now or else. I dang, we got a debut the slide whistle later because I got to hear that thing. Yes, we do, thank you for that. Did you get your gift from me? I did? Okay, good. I thought that that you would find that wildly appropriate and it helped out our buddy too. That's right. Um. And so we're just gonna wade into some easy, easy waters here with hell. Hell. This is tough. Man. I was like, who's dumb idea was this? And I realized it was mine? Uh so I never forgot. Yeah, the c I a here is is that. I mean, people like I think the Grabster helped us put this together. He said, people make their entire careers out of just Dante's Inferno, much less concepts of Hell. And uh it is very broad and dense and confusing, and so this is sort of a just a stuff you shouldn't know stab at it. Yeah, and let me just add to that that we are in no way, shape or form biblical scholars, theologians. We're gonna get a lot of stuff wrong. We're probably gonna walk right past interpretations they're popular and widely accepted. We were like, this is this is just us talking about hell, So just relax. We already know we're going to hell, so there's nothing you can do to us that's any worse. Um, So just calm down and enjoy the episode. How about that? Enjoy this episode about eternal conscious torment. Yeah, and if you are a scholar of Dante, just don't even listen. Yeah, you will literally puke into your cupped hands while you're listening to this on the train because you're that polite. That's right, go back and listen to the Science of Cute again. Um. Wow, that was that was a reference to something that doesn't even exist yet. That's hetty. Yeah, So Chuck, I want to talk first. I'm mentioned eternal conscious torment, and that is kind of like the the broad spectrum of what most people walking around today in the Western world, whether they're Christian or just familiar with the Christian concept of hell, think of hell. It's where your your soul is tormented, beaten up, bullied, um, maybe talked about behind its back, uh, set on fire. Um. And in this in this state, um, there's no dying, there's no death of the soul. The soul is immortal. So this, this pain, this torment, this horrible nous just keeps going on forever and ever and ever. And that is that's that comes directly from St. Augustine, who kind of plays big into this concept of hell. But the idea that there's an immortal soul, that it goes somewhere after death, and that depending on how it behaved here on earth, um, it may or may not face eternal conscious torment. That is seriously, it's the theological term that they used today that strikes some people, some theologians, is wildly disproportionate to the kinds of sins we're talking about here, Like like you over indulged in fudge brownie mix during your time on Earth means that you're going to be to just suffer a literal, not never ending, infinite, eternal torment of damnation because you over indulged in brownie mix. That just doesn't quite jibe for some people. So there there have been other alternatives that were posed many many years ago, that were actually around in some cases before eternal conscious torment came around. Um that some people are saying, like, hey, maybe this is a better interpretation of what's actually going on with Hell. Are you familiar with those other interpretations well? Which ones, uh, namely universalism and annihilationism. Mm hmm. This was that thing that I was saying, we got to talk about these such check this out. I'm gonna let me wow you for a second, okay, because these are to me, the softer, gentler versions of hell. One is that the universalism. Another terms universal salvation, and it's this idea that there is an end, there's a there's a finite date to the to the torment, and that you're basically going to hell depending on how badly you sinned. But over time you can kind of work that sin off and you will eventually come out the other end saved and go to heaven. And that that happens to everybody. Everyone is is it can possibly go to heaven through this idea. The other is annihilationism, which makes a lot of sense to if you believe in this kind of stuff. That, um, the people who are saved, the righteous, the virtuous, people who are going to go to heaven, they go on to heaven after they die. Everybody else just ceases to exist. They're annihilated upon death. No hell, but there's no heavenly reward for those people. I like those a lot more than eternal conscious torment. The thing is, eternal conscious torment is so gripping. Yeah, that it's it's like this is this is this is just what people think of when they think of hell. And apparently, if you're an evangelical in particular and you believe in anything but eternal conscious torment, you're you're you're flirting with being shunned by your peers because you're you're going in the face of Orthodoxy. Well, yeah, I mean, you know, it's it's a lot to unpack. I know, you grew up fairly Catholic, and I've regret how many times I've had to say the word Baptist on this show. I feel like there's a lot of people taking a shot right now if this is the stuff you should know, drinking game. But I can't not mention that growing up Baptist, it's a very uh, you know, it's a very fiery, brimstony um religion and it's um. I very much up with the concept, this very sort of trophy concept of heaven is this um you know, lovely place where God lives. It's in the up there in the clouds, and you go up and then if you're not good, then you go down to somewhere, I guess in the center of the earth where the devil lives and where Satan pokes you, and where you are you know, there's lakes of fire and it's all very scary and and you know, it wasn't until I got a little bit older that I realized that these are stories told to get children in line. Yeah, and not just children, adults who go on to continue to believe in how you know and and to subscribe to this stuff. For sure, it's definitely a way to keep people in line. But the concept of hell generally in the concept of souls. Uh. And this is probably no surprise to most um sort of critical thinkers. But you know, the the idea of being worm dirt and after you die, that's just it is a lot to take gone as you approached that day. Yeah, so it is really it makes a lot of sense. I think that people from very early on started to think about the concept of a soul um, a self that lived on um. And you know, it just makes sense that there's a quote good place in a bad place. Yeah. But the thing is is, apparently it doesn't seem to have necessarily been just like part and parcels. From from what Ed's saying and from what I saw elsewhere in the research, is that heaven seemed to have developed first very early on, and then there was a real emphasis on symmetry in the ancient and in like pre modern world, where if you had one you had the opposite and equal proportions. So eventually over time that kind of was like well, if there's this really lovely place that's like paradise after you die, then there has to be the opposite of that, the antithesis of that too, And that's where this development of hell came from. But the fact that hell wasn't hasn't always been around her as long as you know, the idea of the afterlife, and then the idea that it wasn't ever hasn't always been this place where you're you were subject to the most cruel kinds of punishments available to to the human imagination. Right. Yeah, Um, that that's not that's not as old as as the idea of the afterlife either. That that was really surprising to me. But it's it's pretty neat because it's weird. It's almost like humanity got infected by a germ of real meanness and in darkness that we're still living with today, and that you could kind of trace it in in the evolution of our idea of hell as well or to the beginnings of Twitter. That's that's right. So, uh, that's evil incarnate. It depends on what religions you're talking about, but virtually every religion has some sort of afterlife concept. Um. Early judy is Um. Of course certainly does. If you read back, um ed described something from the Sumerian underworld, where they kind of more talk about hell as uh or the afterlife I guess is just sort of boring. Uh. And there wasn't you know, you didn't go to a fiery place where you're tormented. Um. They talk about, you know, being thirsty and eating dust. Certainly unpleasant. Um. But then this idea starts where you can be in a better place in the afterlife according to what you've achieved on earth, but not necessarily good deeds at first. Like if you're really rich, then you're gonna go to a good place because your family could afford to bury you with food and drink and jewels and gold and stuff like that to carry with you to the other side, and that would put you in a much better standing. But again, this is not like I was a good person. This is just I died rich. So all these really valuable things they could put underground and bury with me. Right, But in the same way to the living could care for you. They could. You might not be rich, but your family might care so much about you that they come on every Sunday whatever they called Sunday's back when the Sumerians were running around, um and bring you like a little food and a little beer or something like that. And and they were sustaining you in this place where everybody else was eating dust and dirt. But your family so loved you because you've been such a good person during your time while you were alive, that they were coming and bringing you like bread and beer. Um. And in that sense, also, Chuck, is really kind of poetic because you, that person, are living on in the memories of your family after you died, because they're coming and keeping your memory alive by bringing you bread and beer and all that. And so in that way, you are living on in this kind of immortal means as well. But the converse of that is really disturbing, and that if you don't inspire people to care about you afterwards, like you really ceased to exist, like there's there's there's no one on earth who's thinking of you, are honoring you. And in that sense, if there is no afterlife you you, that is annihilation. That is true oblivion. What Disney or Pixar movie is it? I saw it recently, that has to do it. It's brutal um like you're being erased and until you're remembered after death, Eternal Sunshine, the Spotless Mind. Now I know it's called inside out. Maybe no, that's the one about the emotions, which is equally brutal. Yeah, I don't think that. I thought her. I thought the kids like imaginary friend was being erased or demolished. And then was that in that movie? I think so? Yeah, remember the elephant that was like George Clooney's friend Richard has it right now? It certainly seems that, Oh, I can't remember. And this is officially marks the first podcast of the year where people are screaming at us, which is coincidentally the first podcast of the year that we record. That's right. Um, I think it's Egypt, Ancient Egypt, where the first the first idea of like, um, this this weird sort of afterlife, uh judgment panel sort of steps in where you know, there are people like literally in charge of this thing, almost like a bureaucracy, and there's an administration and it's it sounds a little bit more like Sammy David's JRS sitcom pilot that failed. Oh yeah, I forgot about that. She Devil. I don't remember it. Definitely wasn't she devil? That was wasn't it was something like that though, Yeah, but it was that was pretty good. The show was, I mean the the like one minute trailer I saw me pretty good. Um. But this, you know, the ancient Judaism sort of overlaps with some of this stuff. But Judaism is a it's a it's a whole different thing because you know, they have references. There's a lot of references to things that were later just sort of rewritten and reach translated as hell, which makes it really confusing if you look at ancient texts. Yeah, Judaism head shield, um, which is it kind of follows in that same tradition, uh, from the pre Christian era that like when you died, there was an afterlife and there wasn't much to it. It wasn't but it wasn't it wasn't particularly pleasant. Yeah. Apparently to the to the the early Jews, they were they were basically saying like this is it's the state of mind after death more than like if interdimensional like physical place that exists outside of this world, not like a realm. But yeah, like you're saying like a, yeah, like I guess a state of mind as far as as that as that goes. But it also suggests that you still have a mind after you die well, and it also suggests that um, I mean, there's a little bit of the punishment and reward, but it's not necessarily you go to the fiery place or you go to have and it's a little more of a spiritual connection, like if you did good on earth, you're gonna spend your afterlife a little closer to God. If you're not such a great person, you're gonna be, you know, a little further away from God, right, right. But but overall, the point of she'all was that no matter what you did on earth, no matter who you were, good person, bad person, doesn't matter, you were going to go to the same place. And even at the time, apparently they realized that this was unjust. There's like a part of I think Ecclesiastes that says that the fact that there are that everybody goes to the same place, no matter how good or bad you are in life. This is the injustice that is done under the sun. The same fate comes to everyone, which I didn't realize that Ecclesiastes rhyme, but it's got a nice, nice beat to it, nice tempo. Does it doesn't all rhyme? Does it? I don't think so. I was kind of surprised at any of it rhyme. But there's that That's a really important point, Chuck that um to these ancient people, whether they were the early Jews or the Canaanites or um or the Egyptians, there was there was not punishment in the afterlife. God punished you during life like you you were suddenly you know, like directing or something like that. That was punishment from God. As we kind of evolved away from that, the idea that God had a direct daily hand in our lives as a as a a species, that punishment moved to the afterlife rather than during this life, right, which is not recognized. And Judaism of course as New Testament stuff now, And there was something else that stuck out to me is well, we'll kind of see in a second. Judaism seems to have been developed as a religion um as as contrary to some of the other religious beliefs that were around, Like they seem to have really kind of opposed the Canaanites. The Canaanites were into child sacrifice. They um, they had multiple gods, um. And the Jews kind of played off of that, like some of these these devils that we understand today, demons like malok and by all you know, be a apostrophe a l um, those were actually Canaanite gods, and they kind of perverted the pronunciation of them to kind of mock them or make them seem other or different. Um. And you think, like, well, that's not very nice. That's one religion disparaging another. But at the same time, the early Jews were saying like, also, we shouldn't be sacrificing children, like that's not that's not a good thing to do. Let's practice this other thing instead. So I'm I'm kind of a fan of the the of early Judaism. It turns out I had no idea you should convert. I just might. Should we take a break. I think we should. All right, let's take a break. We'll read up a little bit on whether or not you're allowed to convert, because I don't even know, and then we'll be back right after this. Have you converted? I looked it up. I'm not allowed to. It would require me to be religious. Oh well, interesting. Uh So we talked a little bit about the sort of the confusion of I mean, a lot of the confusion in what we think of as hell lies in um. Just these these texts, some Hebrew text and translations and miss translations and stories that are told, you know, the old game of telephone that happened throughout the years while these things were passed on. So there's a lot of things that you know over the years that you've thought of sort of as a generic hell, like Haiti, which was Greek, the Greek underworld um also synonymous with the shield, but not Hell. Uh. There's Tartarus that's in the Old Testament, also from the Greeks, that more closely resembles Hell from what I could tell. Yeah, and that's like a part of the underworld where God's in prison enemies. Um. There is like punishment, it's fiery and maybe that concept and like a lot of this what we're doing is sort of unpacking what we think of as hell now and sort of where this stuff came from. And it seems like Tartarus is uh is definitely one of those places. Yeah, And like Hades and she all more closely resemble purgatory um or Limbo, where Tartarus. Yes, is definitely hell. Hell, Like that's where torment and fire is and all all this stuff that's really kind of like popped up to me. It's like, wow, this is like are what we think of as hell today? Even like the cartoon Hell with like the pitchfork in the fire and all that stuff. This is some ancient stuff that it's built on. Over EON's you know, like the earliest people who started burying their dead because they thought like maybe there was a life afterward. And it just kind of evolved from that, Colonel, and more and more civilizations came along and added to it and subtracted to it and said no, you're wrong, No you're wrong, and let's go to war over this. Like Hell is like this hammered steel drum that's been hammered out by you know, millennia of of people and cultures, and it sounds pretty good. Yeah. I thought you were about to say by John Bonham did he play a steel drum? No, but it just you sounded it sounded like the intro to it led Zeppelin song their first second um Gehenna is something else we should mention. This is another kind of quote unquote hell um But this was a real place. It was a literal place near Jerusalem where it sounds like it was kind of a uh some sort of ancient uh almost the word I'm looking for, not necessarily a where where do you take all the trash? Episode about it? Land land? Yeah, sort of a landfill on fire. Okay, that's one interpretation, which is a great record title. I think landfill, Yeah, why not? But this is where they like would take stuff to burn, um, trash basically. And uh there might have also been child sacrifice happening there because I guess they figured, well, there's a fire already happening, so we won't have to start one. Um. It depends on what source you're looking at. But it became a metaphorical hell where a place that was on fire. You could be sent there. It was a place of judgment, you could be cast into it. Uh. And that's in the New Testament of course. Um. So that's another sort of hades like um, I guess usage that just makes it all the more confusing. Yeah. But again, like like you know, as we're getting further and further along and deeper and deeper into Christianity, which we haven't quite hit yet, when Gehennah was first introduced because I think that's Jewish, right, It's like a Jewish So even though it is in the New Testament um, which has even more confusing right, but it kind of shows you how like connected, like these these civilizations and groups were over the ages, you know that this still popped up just borrowing things from one another exactly. But then as these translations, you know, kind of go on over the centuries and there's newer and different versions of the Bible and the New Testament, the Old Testament, like you know, all these things just become this generic Hell, which kind of opens it up two, making how this big, huge, amorphous place where oh, it's like this, but it's also like this, and it's like that. And by naming everything just Hell and losing that kind of the ethnicity involved, the Christians were able to kind of wholesale adopt all of these ancient traditions and conceptions of Hell into their own version of Hell. And this is the Christian Hell, whereas if you kind of start poking behind it, you're like, oh, this is this Christian Hell is made up of all these other conceptions of hell along the way. So as far as like uh, and I love that Ed calls a section the topology of Hell, but that's sort of you know, a big part of it is um. And we mentioned a little bit Heaven as this place where God lives that's above you, up in the sky because it's pretty no one really knows exactly where all that comes from, but it all does make sense UM that you know, you look to the skies when you pray, you look up when you're talking to God. And if that's the case, then it makes sense that, like you said, with the symmetry, that there is another place we bury the dead underground, it makes sense that there would be a place that's deep and dark and fiery. I guess you know, cave like deep underground. That stuff is scary. So it makes sense that Hell just sort of became this place that's uh, for lack of a better word, under our eat somewhere. Yeah. And what was interesting to me is that like disconnected UM groups and cultures, not just geographically but through time as well, all had that same conception that like Hell was underground and Heaven was somewhere above us or in the sky. UM like the Mayan's had a place called Shebalba, which is like I guess translates to a place of fear, and that is when you die. You start out there and it's underground, and it's hellish and scary, and you have to work your way up basically into the sky to paradise. Um, and she all was underground. It was connected to the grave, and that seems to be where this idea also not just that heaven was in the sky, so hell must be underground, but also that there has to be some connection underground because we've been burying people or at least putting our dead in you know, deep dark caves for at least a hundred and thirty thousand years from what I seen, but um, it may even go back before that. In Neanderthals, I think buried they're dead. Even so, it's a really kind of ancient impulse to like put your dead underground or in some some underground, subterranean place like a cave chamber. So of course that would be connected to the afterlife in some way. But it is interesting that it's like, as far as I can tell, there's not a single culture that's like, oh, yeah, that's where heaven is is underground. Yeah, And it's like I find myself saying, well, it makes sense because you climb your way out of hell with good works towards heaven. Like it's sort of a chicken or the egg thing, Like it makes sense to me, But it only makes sense because that's the way it's always been framed. Yeah, there's a few thousand years of culture behind that, that way that you were raised or I was raised, you know. Yeah, so you mentioned purgatory. Um, this is the realm of the afterlife. Uh, purgatory is um. It's like a waiting room where you were waiting to be judged. Um. It is not. It's not like a great place. It's not like an awesome waiting room with like the best magazines. It's more like the waiting room with umoylights and high lights, right, nothing but highlights and boys life and all of the puzzles are already filled out. Yeah or oh man. The worst is any doctor's office where it's nothing but like medical and health magazines. Like, no one wants to read that stuff in there, No they don't. You want to read a three year old sports illustrated right, and everybody else in the waiting room is not wearing a mask. Oh no, thank you. It's it's the version of hell. Dude. That's my new nightmare. I've had having those about three times a week where I'm being descended upon. There they seem like zombies, but they're just people without mask right, it's weird potato potato. But you know what's funny? Has this has happened to you where you where you watch like movies or TV shows or something pre COVID and it's like you're way too close to that person. Get back, like we have been changed, man, possibly for ever. Oh I think you'd be surprised how quickly we'll forget. I hope so, oh man, I hope, so, I hope this all just becomes like some bad dream that just fades over time. And now my mom's getting vaccinated this Saturday. Good for her, Jack, she needs to do live on Instagram or something. Yeah. She was like, you know, should I have any reservations? It was like nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. And she's like, well then I mean I have to wait in line. You're like, oh, those reservations, make reservations, make reservations, but yes, stuck. Being stuck in purgatory is not a good thing. Um, so it's not it's not hell, but it's not someplace where you want to be. That's why people you know, use that term now like I'm in purgatory. Yeah, And there's something about purgatory that hadn't really realized it. It's not interchangeable with limbo. When you go into limbo, you're there forever, Like that's where you spend eternity, sometimes by no fault of your own. Like this is where people who lived before Christ ever existed, um go after they die, because they can't possibly have been Christians, so they're not being punished, but they're not being rewarded by you know, in heaven. It's kind of mean. Purgatory is a place where you I guess have to have been a Christian but maybe elapsed Christian, a Christian who sin something like that, to where you can you can work it off and and you know, go on to heaven. And that's kind of that universalism or universal salvation idea. It's like that's all there is. The hell is purgatory where you can work it off over time and and be saved. And then also really jibes too with this idea chuck of Um of the Buddhist hell. Basically, the Buddhists have a concept of hell where I think called naraka, which is also a Hindu concept. But um, there's this this idea that you're you're there for very in in each of these hells. You have to go through these hells, and your lifetime there's very specific, like your your lifetime in this hell is one point six two trillion years, and then the next hell is like, you know, a quadrillion years or something like that. Um, but you eventually work your karma off on Earth. And if there's a real striking resemblance this Buddhist hell to some you know, Christian and Jewish interpretations of hell, or I should say some Christian interpretations of hell where you can work off your bad deeds and then go on to Nirvana or heaven. That's because they'll borrowed from one another, it's really I mean, that's basically the fact of the podcast is that there's a lot of um incestuous interchange between the religions overlap, that's another way to put it. What I think is also interesting is the concept of temperature in hell. Um, it's a very big deal. You always think of of fire and heat and sweatiness, but that's not always the case. There are frozen hell's um aside from you know, the Dakota's, Uh that Naraka you were talking about. I think that's a frozen hell, right, Yeah, there's eight hot hells and eight cold hells. And the eight cold hells are like, in this one, your skin starts a blister. In this one, it's so cold that the blisters break, and then it just keeps going from there, like all these horrible things happen to you from being exposed to the cold. Yeah, it's very interesting. I guess it's just sort of a variation of the same thing, like something really cold can burn you. Yeah, but I mean it really kind of gives you this idea, Chuck. There's like so much thought has been given to all the little horrible details of Hell, and I wonder, like what what that satisfies? Like, couldn't you just be like, Okay, we all believe that there's a hell and it's a horrible place as bad as you can imagine. Just go with that. What what was the purpose of going into all this detail? I think this I think the specificity if if Hell and the and sins on Earth are to be punished in the afterlife. To me, it would make sense that there would be a great specificity put forward so people know exactly how bad it is, uh, in order to inform their deeds on earth. Like it's not just hey, it's a bad place. You don't want to go there. It's like it's a place where your skin will melt off and you will be you know, you'll have to push this fireball around for eternity or whatever. You know. Yeah, and then person, it's like fireball. That sounds terrible, Like I was okay with with this thing, but maybe I should get a better person. I guess I won't steal this car after all. But it's all like fear stuff and that you know that existed right through my religion, you know, and we still exist today. Do you remember roughly how old you were when you're like, oh, I don't actually believe this anymore. I'm free. Uh. It's started in sort of Middish high school, but I was still sort of doing this stuff and hanging with a certain crowds. Certain crowds do you mean, like the opposite of certain crowds? No, you know, going to like young life and uh a f C A and stuff like that into early college, and the big transformation I think I mentioned this before was when I took a religion class in college, and I did learn that so much of this stuff is kind of all the same and borrowed from one another, and that is antithetical to grow up in the Christian Baptist Church, where they're like, no, no, no, this is the only truth. Everyone else is wrong. And then when I said, well, wait about what about all these other religions that are really really similar. Yeah, so I had that was a big reckoning and then it was just sort of gradual from there. Your comparative religion class was taught by Professor Lewis Cipher. Oh man, he had a he had a heck of a ponytail. I just been out Cipher. I thought that was really clever back when I saw that movie. Yeah, and looking back, it's pretty dumb, wouldn't it, angel Hart, Yeah, I mean, good enough movie, very much of its time. But I remember thinking that Louis Cipher thing was like, whoa, right, right, there's a restaurant I think in like d C. Maybe Louis Cipher's yes, And I'm like, that's that's an unusual choice to base your restaurant franchise on Satan. You know, we love it. Should we take another break? Yeah, let's all right, more judgment and punishment coming up right after this. Okay, Chuck, you promised judgment, you promised punishment. Let's let's lay it on us. Well, I mean, you know, this is like you mentioned earlier in the Old Testament, like God directly punished people, you could be smited or blinded or whatever. And the New Testament is when things got a little more organized, and it was literally like here's the sections of hell. If you did this, you go here. If you did this on Earth, you go there. Um. And a lot of this is informed by writers um and and not even like biblical scholars, like people like Plato um And a lot of these stories again are really really similar. There's a story from Plato's Republic where a man named Er e Er goes into a coma, journeys through the underworld and then wakes up and then tells everyone what happened down there. And this has a lot of reward and punishment included in a really organized system. And there are a lot of stories really similar to that um throughout time that you know, I don't know if they were based on Plato or or the Republic or just like we've been talking about, sort of overlapping incestuous. I think you can make the case that they were based on Plato because Plato he wasn't the first to come up with the idea of the immortal soul. And UM, they're they're being like judgment and torment, you know, potentially afterward if not reward UM. But he really kind of um boosted it. I guess he signaled boosted the idea of an eternal soul impossible damn nation UM. And he directly influenced uh St Augustin and Augustine. Uh definitely influenced some of these later guys like drip Helm and tundale Um and their idea of how but Augustine was influenced by by Plato and Augustine had the other distinction along with Um. I think Augustine and St. Gregory were really kind of big time into that eternal damn nation idea. But Augustine also was the one who basically said, this is orth that I see, this is the correct interpretation of the scripture. If you don't believe it, we we are fine with inflicting violence upon you, that same tradition of what you were saying, where this is the only truth in anybody who believes anything else is wrong. That finds its source at the very least, it finds its early popularity from St. Augustine. So this idea of uh, eternal damnation and if you don't believe in that, you're wrong, that kind of finds its its place in the early Christian Church, and I think the fifth century. And so you do have these guys who came later, like drip Helm and Tundale, who had nothing to do with scripture, but their their experiences where basically they died and came back to the life and said, there's a hell and it's awful. Really kind of informed our idea of what hell is like. And it seems to be based a lot on this ide these ideas by Augustine, who got his ideas from Plato, who got his ideas from God knows who. God does know who. Uh. If you really want to drill down though to um where we get many many of our ideas of what we think of as hell is Dante, of course, who we mentioned earlier. Um I did not even know Dante's last name until uh, until we researched this. But it's and there's gonna be some great Italian coming up. Everyone but Dante Algieri in his Divine Comedy and specifically Um Inferno. Dante's Inferno is is really um really where we get a lot of what we think of as hell today comes from Inferno as far as and people even say without even knowing, like the eighth circle of Hell and stuff like that. Like I've been guilty of saying that my whole life and not really understanding what the heck that even meant. But what's interesting, too, is so Dante wrote the the Inferno, well, he wrote the Divine Comedy UM in the early thirteen hundreds. I guess it took him fifteen years um. And so this is the undreds, and he writes about these nine circles of Hell, the nine concentric circles of Hell, like that is a really ancient concept, even though he divided it and like really um enunciated all of the different distinctions in a really popular way. Um. Like that that's really old. Like think of that Naraka, there's eight hot hot hells, there's eight cold hells. There's like this idea of different stages, Like the minds even had this idea where you progress through these different stages up the tree of life from that that dark underworld. Um, that's a really ancient idea. But yeah, Dante was definitely the one who you would credit with this, you know, coming up with it, even though it's totally wrong. Yeah, And it's also important to remember when Dante wrote this stuff, it was in it was the last fifteen years of his life, and this was after he battled the pope and the Catholic Church and was exiled from Florence. So a lot of this stuff is just reeks of sort of having a bone to pick and like, hey, the things that happened to me, like they're going to be slotted in like and it's almost like, uh like using his own experience to to create the symbolism of like, this is what happened to me, and that makes you the worst person if you did these things exactly Like I'm going to put you in hell in my book. And I'm sure some of those people were alive and like, hey, man, don't don't put me in hell, Like this is not you can't do that, And he's like, I just did you know here's a nice cube. Have fun. So he um Dante. One of his big things and that I think made his work so famous too, was he um really got into contraposso you want to take that? No, that was great, Um. I didn't even pinch my fingers and thumb together. Uh. And contraposso is basically this this poetic eye for an eye where you know if you if you do this on earth, if you sin in this way, your punishment is going to be some poetic justice um in the afterlife. And that was the whole point of of Hell as far as Dante was concerned. It was where God got justice for things that were done wrong here on earth. And apparently it said as much. Over the gate of Hell Um it said you to ze most say il mio alto fatore, which means justice moved my high maker, Um, which is basically saying like, this is what this place is for, is to get justice. And there's also a very famous um inscription over the gates of Hell abandoned all hope he who interheed, and that came from Uh Dante's Inferno as well. How is that what that's from? Mm hmmm. That's good stuff. It really is It was also used to great effect in Boondocks Saints So Dante and Virgil are um. Before they even go to Hell, they have to cross the over at Huron and deal with Sharon the boatman, which is you know, I think this has been used a million times too in literature and pop culture, like this, this boat person that has to transport someone across this river to a different place. Sometimes you have to pass a test um, you know, like Monty Python style basically. And that's so weird. Right as I said that, I just looked up to our Aaron Cooper special Monty Python photoshop poster where I'm King Arthur and you are one of the nights. It's Stricklin is in there too, Yeah, isn't he like the page with the coconuts? Yeah? And there he else is over there. Now I'm looking at a picture of me face punching George Lucas. You haven't been in this room in a while, have you? No? No, But I remember it pretty well. It's burned in your brain after twelve years. Uh So where was I You were talking about the river sticks and or Archer Honor, and which is might as well be the River sticks? Right, right? But it is. It's like straight up taken from the Greeks, and yet this devout Christian Dante is is writing about it like this the Christian Hell, And it really kind of goes to to show you just how much literary license he took with this well and how much um he borrowed from the Greeks, because like you, you would think this is probably the Christian stance on on hell, and it's not um. Like, for instance, Dante sees uh thinks that it's a virtue if you're have moderation in your life, like you don't wanna be too spindy and greedy, also don't want to be too miserly, But that's not a Christian thing at all, Like that's not in the Tin Commandments. It's not one of the seven Deadly sins or anything like that. No, there's gluttony, but miserly nous is not in there, right, Yeah, So he's definitely just saying this is this is what I Dante think. But I guess it just hit a nerve because I mean, like, like we were saying at the outset like this is this is just this is basically what people think of when they think of hell. These days if not the fire and the red pitchfork and all that. All right, So first circle limbo, not purgatory like we mentioned. Uh, this is where you can like it's it's not terrible, but it is hell and it's sort of unfair like you said, Uh, you know, if you're not like, you could just be born before Christ and you can be in limbo, right like Aristotle's there. Aristotle was great and virtuous and one of the greatest thinkers the world's ever produced. Yet he's stuck in limbo because he existed before Christ so couldn't possibly be saved. So what's next? Lust is next? And this is pretty interesting too in that, um, you know, some other people who had seen visions of hell, like the the you know, medieval nights we talked about earlier, they're talking about like you know, oh yeah, they they nail your sack to a board with rusty nails, are just really juvenile stuff. Dante goes a lot more poetic, and that his idea of lust is is their punishment for lust is you know, lovers are blown about by the wind so that they can never quite get together and there's always you know, kept just just out of each other's reach, which is you know, it's it's a lot more poetic than than the other one. Did you say, nail your sack to a board, Yeah, like your backpack? Yes, okay, okay, all right. The third circle is gluttony. Uh. Here you're stuck in the mud and it's you're being pummeled by hail and freezing rain. And um, this is where he got a little bit of his bone to pick out on Florence and what a terrible place that was. Um. The fourth circle is where we get into the greed and the miserly. Um. Basically, um, it's the circle of moderation, like, don't go too far in either direction. Yeah, And he really kind of plays into that symmetry as well, where on the one side are the people who are super gluttonous and like they spend just tons of money, and then on the other side there are the people who are super stingy and hoard their money. They're really two sides of the same coin. I think Dante is correct in that sense, and so they're both in that same circle of hell, but on opposite sides of the circle. The number five is that, Yeah, that's that's where those of us who are um who get road rage will be potentually that's where I'm gonna be Unford, all right, and you're in the river sticks in that case. Yeah, I just losh it around, being like I'm so married about everything. Uh, circle number six everyone. It feels like a Dave Letterman Top ten does all of a sudden. These are heretics, These are pagans, these are atheists. These are people who, while they were on Earth, were like, Hey, I'm just gonna have a good time while i'm here. I'm not worried about salvation. Yeah, and Epicurious in particular, Ler's there and I was like, why Epicurious? And apparently he very much and his followers did not believe in any kind of afterlife, which is why they're like, make the most of your time here on earth. I guess that's where I am. Yeah. Um. It's basically another way to interpret that is that these were people who's so discord by injecting alternative ideas into the believers minds. All right, well maybe I'm not there then, um no. Like also, if you if you don't believe in an afterlife and you're enjoying your time here on earth, you go there either way you're scrowgy. Either way, well, at least we'll be there together. Um. We also, I don't think we mentioned that Virgil, the poet virgil Um is the one who's guiding Dante around through these these things, and I guess it's kind of acting is like his um uh oh what is the name of from New York Dolls and scrooged buster point X. He's acting as Dante's buster point decks um, and so virtual's escorting him around. They get to the seventh circle of hell Um, which contains the city of dis which dis or is this in the sixth I think it's in the sixth Yeah comes after Yeah, So the and so a lot of a lot of people, um kind of chop up these circles of hell into the first through third, the second through the sixth, and the seventh through the ninth. And apparently Dante considered basically the first through the six is all kind of generally in the same category, which was they were sins of incontinence where people just couldn't resist the earthly temptations. They had a weakness of will. They're you know, they're being tormented because they made these choices. But Also this is really it's it's forgivable stuff. Seventh through nine is where who he considers the the gen new in centers, the evil people reside. Yeah, this is where arsonists and murderers. Um that he actually framed, you know, suicide as one of these Uh in that seventh circle, Um, the eighth circle, and you know this is it gets a little confusing because in their smaller pockets within these circles. Uh. And again, if you're a scholar of Dante, just I'm so so sorry, so sorry. Yeah, hopefully they turned this. But the eighth circle is for ten kinds of fraud. And then the ninth circle is finally where Satan is and this is for for Satan and as the lead trader basically um, not trader but trade or which is you know, this is a big one for me. I mean as a Pisces Uh Sabbath fan of Black Sabbath like loyalty and um is very important. Broken trust is to me like of the worst things someone can do. And so I didn't realize that was picy in in nature. Yeah, pretty pice in very loyal very friendships and relationships are sort of the utmost importance to be betrayed is like just kind of the worst thing you can do. So this is this would be your your you'd really enjoy this. Yeah, I mean, I guess that's my eighth circle. Um. But it's interesting in that Satan, the ultimate trader to God, is stuck there but could get out. Um. In theory, if Satan just realized that, like, hey, I'm beneath God and I can recognize God as being above me and I am not God's equal. Um. And it's a frozen it gets a little confusing, but it's a frozen lake. It's a little antithetical to what we think about is Satan is being fiery, because what happens is the lake with thaw and free Satan. If he wasn't flapping his big bat wings to try and fly up to God to proof he's as equal, but instead of Satan's wings, I guess throwing forth like fire what you would think and actually I guess is icy and it just keeps that like frozen. Right. But if he would just yeah, if he'd just give up, then he'd stopped beating his wings and then it wouldn't all right, yeah, and then he would be free. But then he just wouldn't be Satan anymore. You know what I mean, to be a broken version of Satan, and who wants that? Right then we wouldn't have Tommy Davis Junior TV pilot. Yeah, right, exactly. So, I mean, it's not like our idea of Hell just ended at Dante. But I was like, yep, that's it. Don't need to add to it, Like plenty of people have over time. One of the coolest I've seen I cannot remember what it was, but I suspect that was an aon flux Um cartoon on Remember Liquids on MTV. I think somehow aon flux ended up in Hell and like this, the the weird conception of it was just so unsettling. Everything was just so off. It was really well done, and I'll have to go, like see if I can find it. All I could find was that aon Flex the movie sucked. That's all you can find when you search a on Flex in Hell right now. But um, I really want to find that again. If I do, I'll have to tweet it out. Yeah. I mean, you could do a whole second podcast episode on popular versions of Hell and pop culture and movies and TV and literature. Paintings. Serronamous Bosh is a great example. Um. I love those paintings. This was a couple of centuries after Inferno. But these are the ones that look like sort of in default album covers. Um. They're great, very cool stuff. Uh. And you know, like I said, there's scores of versions of Hell, from Clive Barker to Marvel Comics Too, to Sammy Davis Jr. And The Good Place. They're all over the place. So it's definitely something that's like, I don't know, it's just weirdly captured pop cultures imagination, just as much as it did thousands of years ago with religion. You know, one of the greatest, one of the other great um conceptions of the afterlife, not necessarily hell, but hell ish um is found in this. I think I've mentioned it before a Joyce Carol Oates short story called night Side, where there's this um seance and like the spirits that are contacted are like all freaked out because there's no it's all just chaos. Nobody. I think they keep saying, like no one's in charge and like everything is just out of order. Um. And it's a really like unsettling read like Joyce Killer Oates is so good with horror, but that that particular one is super disturbing. I highly recommend everybody reading it. Yeah, and if you want to see a fun take on the afterlife, watch the great Albert Brooks movie Defending Your Life. Oh my god, that is such a great movie. One of the all time great sleeper films ever, wonderful, so good. Yeah, that's a good that's a treat right there. Good for you, the great Albert Brooks. Yeah. Well, since Chuck can't stop talking about Albert Brooks, I think that means it's time for listener. Ma'm fun. Fact a lot of people know this. Albert Brooks born Albert Einstein. No, yes, no, yes, brother of super Dave Osborne. I guess I had known that, but only when Super Dave died recently, right, uh, yeah, he did die. Their birth name was Einstein. I think I think Super Dave Osborne was super Dave Einstein. No, I think it was Bob Einstein. And I don't know. I think so, I don't know, but that he's like from the Larry Bud Melman era of Letterman and yeah, good stuff. Oh yeah, So if you want to know more about Hell, just start sending your a off and you'll find out about it soon enough. And like I said, since Chuck keeps talking about Albert Brooks, it is time for a listener. Man. Yeah, I'm gonna call this one of our great senior listeners. Uh. And this this lady is from Australia. Hello, guys. I'm an eighty year old woman in aged care. My life was very mundane and quite boring. I finally bought a mobility scooter now uh and I could get out and ride the wonderful pathways and visit the shops. My son Robert, thought I needed more interest, so he hooked my phone up to Josh and Chuck podcasts. Wow, all capitals. How I love riding around on my scooter and listening to your wonderful humor and mostly interesting things in quotes. I love it. So perhaps she even has the book. I have learned so much about everything, love Elvis, visiting Nixon for a NARC, Badge, Building Boulder, Damn, Francis Perkins, etcetera. Just everything. Guys, keep up the good work. Cheers from Glenda on the Sunshine Coast, Queensland, Australia. Very nice. That was Glenda write. Yeah, I just love hearing from Glinda. She's great. Thank you, Glenda. Yeah, I think Glenda should write in every once in a while. I was just say hi and talk about her favorite recent episode. I would love What do you think, Glenda, if you're listening, please do that and what was her son? Richard Robert Robert Robert. Thank you for turning your mom onto stuff you should Know. Um, well, if you wanna talk about how you turn somebody onto stuff you should know, we would love to hear about that. That's great. You can write us in an email, wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send it off to Stuff Podcasts at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Stuff You Should Know

If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD,  
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