After World War I ended, Eugene Jacques Bullard returned to Paris. He worked as a jazz drummer and nightclub owner, and as the tensions that led to World War II loomed, as an intelligence agent for France.
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Welcome to stuff you missed in history class, a production of I heart radio. Hello and welcome to the PODCAST. I'm Tracy Vie Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. Today is the second part of our two parter on Eugene Jacques Bullard. In part one we talked about his upbringing, his leaving the US to go to Europe and his becoming the first black American combat pilot. Uh. There were a handful of other black combat pilots, but not from the United States. Um, so that is the first that he is recognized as. Uh. He had a whole long life beyond that, though, and that is what we're going to talk about today. After World War One ended, Eugene Jacques Bullard returned to Paris. He was a war hero thanks to his infantry service in the Front Foreign Legion and Hundred and Seventieth Infantry Regiment of the French army and his service as a combat pilot in the Lafayette Esquadrille, which was a unit of mostly American pilots who flew for France. Before the war, he had been a boxer and a performer in various Vaudeville and MINSTREL troops. And while he wanted to get back to boxing, he also needed to make ends meet while he got back into boxing condition and continued to recover from a serious injury to his leg that he had gotten during his service. So he decided to become a musician, specifically a jazz drummer. This sounds maybe a little counterintuitive. I know if I needed to go make money, I'm going to be a jazz drummer. Probably would not be at the top of the list. But jazz really surged in popularity in France towards the end of World War One. One big reason was the three sixty nine regimental army band, also known as the Harlem hellfighters. Marching and leading this band was black musician and composer James Reese Europe, who had recruited the band's members, including traveling to Puerto Rico and recruiting eighteen Afro Puerto Ricans from there. The Harlem Hellfighters Band arrived in Europe in nineteen eighteen and introduced audiences all over Europe to jazz, specifically to jazz performed by black musicians, not kind of jazz derived from Black People's music and performed by white people, which was what most people's experience had been so far. Most people who had been performing things like ragtime and other musical styles that evolved into jazz in Europe had also been white before this point. At the same time, things were shifting in neighborhoods around Paris. MONMASCA had been established as a center of entertainment, culture and art, home to Bohemians Avant Garde artists in a thriving nightlife. This is come up on various episodes of our show before, including our episode on French artists, Marie Laurence, who hosted various people connected with the cubist movement in her Montmartre apartment prior to World War One. During the war, artists and performers started moving from Montmartre to Montparnasse on the other side of the sin, and many of the cabarets and music halls in Montmartre closed down. A lot of these spaces were small and they were very well suited to performances by jazz ensembles. So as the war ended, the demand for jazz music combined with these newly available nightclubs and concert halls to bring a thriving black community to Montmartre. Some of these new clubs and restaurants and other venues were owned by white people and others were black owned. In addition to people like Eugene Bullard who were already living in Europe, performers from the US started coming to France hoping to find a home in this burgeoning music scene. There were also black people from France's colonies in Africa and the Caribbeans, some of whom had been sent to France to study in one of Paris's universities. A number of factors in the US were a part of this influx of black people, including black musicians, to Paris. Some people were hoping to escape from widespread racism, which became increasingly violent after the war. We talked about this in our Harlem Hell Fighters Episode that was a Saturday classic in and in our episode on the Red Summer of Nineteen nineteen that came out in June of nineteen. The Eighteenth Amendment to the U S Constitution went into effect in nineteen twenty, banning the manufacture and sale of alcoholic beverages, and that prompted people whose livelihoods had been built around performing in nightclubs and bars to leave. Other black American performers who worked and established businesses in France during this era included Josephine Baker, Ada Smith, also known as brick top, and Adelaide Hall. So even though he was pretty new to being a drummer, there was enough demand for musicians in Paris that bullard started getting gigs pretty quickly. He joined the House band at a club owned by Joe Zelli, who was born in Italy and immigrated to the US before returning to Europe around nineteen ten Zelli was nicknamed King of cabaret keepers and ran enormously popular clubs in Molmarch. Bullard was hired to play the drums and to work as the club's artistic director, booking acts to perform at the club and also hiring and managing other employees. As a side note, Ernest Hemingway's novel the Sun also rises is based on his experiences in Europe, particularly Paris and Pamplona, and there is some speculation that an unnamed black drummer playing at Zell's in the book is in fact Eugene Bullard. So, as we talked about in part one, one of the reasons Bullard had left the United States was to try to escape from racism. He had heard that in Europe racism wasn't as prevalent as in the US. He had described his arrival in Europe as a relief. He no longer felt that he was continually at risk or just faced with ongoing hostility from white people. He had definitely experienced discrimination. We talked about a lot of ways that he had in part one, but it just wasn't on the scale of what he had lived through in the United States. This started to shift a little bit after World War One in Paris, though a number of factors had shaped racial attitudes in France before this point. France's colonial empire included territory in the Caribbean, North Africa and Asia, and there was widespread racial prejudice against people of color from all of these colonized areas. The actions of the French colonial naments in these areas could also be appalling. Uh, we acknowledge that, but that's also kind of beyond the scope of what we're talking about here today. At the same time, the number of people from any of these areas in France was relatively small. Many were the children of the most affluent and elite who had been sent to France to study, and they were perceived more as exotic outsiders. So that was the case before World War One. The first world war brought larger numbers of people of Color into France and also into Europe more broadly. We've already mentioned the two hundred thousand Black Americans who served in Europe during the war. France also recruited more than five hundred thousand soldiers from its colonial territories, including from West Africa, Morocco and Madagascar. Some of these people were recruited by force. Although African soldiers often served in Africa, some of them also served in continental Europe. The French government brought in laborers from their colonial territories as well and contract workers from China. Incidents of racist violence and xenophobic violenced against foreign workers from other parts of Europe really started to escalate in France starting around nineteen seventeen after the war, France saw some of the trends we've talked about in the context of the United States, as returning white soldiers found that they were now competing with people of color the jobs that they had previously held. As large black communities settled in places like Montmatre, this made them targets as well. Adding to all of this were white American G I S who did not return to the US immediately or who came back to France, and they pushed for the same systems of segregation and white supremacy that they were used to at home. Of course, all of this effected Eugene Bullard. In May of Nineteen nineteen. He stood up at a cafe and accidentally bumped into a white officer behind him, and this led to an altercation in which the officer knocked bullard unconscious. Bullard went to the hospital and was released the next day. And then somehow this turned into a weird case of mistaken identity in which Parisian newspapers reported that the Dixie kid had been killed by a white American army officer. For a refresh from part, one black American boxer, Aaron Lester Brown, was known as the Dixie Kid. Some reporters seemed to have thought Bullard was the dixie kid. There's just the whole very irritating confusion of two different black men and kind of conflating them in this reporting. I have this vision in my head of how this happened, which is that somebody said that black American boxer got knocked out. Oh, of course that was that one. Yeah, it's when people started saying that Bullard was the Dixie kid that I'm like, okay, that those were two different people. Now, Um, and this is an aside, they reported that he had been killed, not just yeah, they reported that he had been killed and not just entered. There was just a very inaccurate uh. Here's the thing. This was not an isolated incident. One of the sources used to this episode described Bullard as never passing up the chance to punch a racist. Bullard filed a libel suit against the French edition of the Chicago Tribune, which had published an article about an incident in which bullard punched a man who was subjecting him to a racist tirade. The Tribunes reporting was false and defamatory, claiming that Bullard was armed with brass knuckles, which he was not, and implying that his transfer from the infantry to aviation was motivated by cowardice. The article also falsely claimed that, once Bullard was trained as a pilot, that he had refused to fly. The French edition of the Tribune was forced to print bullard's rebuttal of this story on Ma and the Chicago defender reprinted that rebuttal in the United States. Yea, his rebuttal clearly spelled out that he was in fact a war hero and that their reporting of him was racist and faults. So that happened actually not that long after Bullard's boxing career ended. He had taken a six month break from his job at Zeli's when he got a contract to box and Alexandria, Egypt. He was badly injured in a match on a nine and really couldn't box anymore after that and for the next couple of decades his career was focused mostly on music and clubs, and we will get to that after a quick sponsor break. On July see Eugene Jack Bullard married Marcell El Eugenie Henriette straman. Sometimes she has described as a countess. Bullard said as much in his autobiography, but she was not a countess. Her parents ran a successful grocery business and she was a Modiste. They were I mean they did well for themselves, but they were not fancy rich people in the way that she has described sometimes. While bullard seems to have had exaggerated the straman family's financial situation. He also said that the difference in their economic background raised a lot more eyebrows than the fact that he was black and she was white. They went on to have three children together, jacqueline in four Eugene Junior in ninety six and Lolita in n Eugene junior sadly died of pneumonia while he was still a baby. Bullard kept working as a drummer and as artistic director at Zeli's. In he bought his own nightclub, Legrand Duke. Although it was a small club, it became incredibly popular with regulars including people like Ernest Hemingway and F Scott Fitzgerald. Louis Armstrong and fats waller performed there, as did Josephine Baker from time to time. She also babysat for Bullard's daughter, Jacqueline. Lankston Hughes also worked at La Clan Duke as a dishwasher and Cook while living in Paris at the age of twenty two. The same year that Bullard bought Le Grand Duke, a memorial to the Lafayette Flying Corps was dedicated near Paris. This monument was meant to recognize all the members of the Lafayette Escadrille, as well as Americans who flew with other French units. They were all kind of loosely grouped together in this informal designation of the Lafayette Flying Corps. This memorial still exists today. It serves as the final resting place for most of the American pilots who were killed while flying for France and World War One. Those who were missing in action or who are buried elsewhere are represented there with empty tombs. Even though Bullard had been part of the Lafayette Escadrille, he was not even told that dedication was happening. He was not on the guest list. One of the other pilots, Ted Parsons, came by the Grand Duke and took him to the dedication, which was on July four. Bullard also discovered that his name had been left off the monument's list of pilots. He considered this to be truly egregious, especially since the monument did list people who had never actually flown. One was Dr Edmund Gross, who was involved with the creation and management of the Lafayette Esquadrille but was not a pilot. And who apparently kept Bullard's name from being included. Yeah, there's a long documented back and forth of Bullard trying to get his name included with all the other names of the men he had flown with. After the Great Depression started, the Grand Duke started to struggle financially and eventually bullard sold it. After that he opened a smile dollar bar which he named the Les Gradule Club. It's a little weird to have the and also the La Pastro from the French name. That that's how I kept finding it referenced. Bullard also started his own athletic club where he worked as a massage therapist and a personal trainer. Some of the same people who had played at the Grand Duke came to the Athletic Club for exercise or relaxation, and it catered to a range of well known Parisians and expatriates. Bullard also arranged musical performances for various charities and philanthropic events, including greeting American mothers whose sons had been killed in action during the war when they arrived in France to visit their graves or to attend memorials. In nineteen thirty five Jean and Marcel divorced, and this is another place where his account of their relationship doesn't really line up with the historical record. He claimed that she inherited a lot of money after her father's death and that she wanted him to give up working so that they could live in luxury. He did not want to be a kept man and he refused, which ended their marriage. He wrote it because they were both Catholic, they never officially divorced and she died a few years later. They did officially divorced, though. That divorce was finalized on December five and unless her father had also inherited money from someone else in the family or had some other money somewhere, like his estate as a Grosser, would not really have been enough to provide for a family to live the rest of their lives without working, especially because bullard made it sound like she kind of wanted them to be high society people. Marcel also did not die shortly after they split up. She lived until I feel like that's the harshest burn ever to just tell people your ex has passed. I'm sorry, Oh yeah, she's yead right here. One of the things that's really distressing to me is. It's not clear whether are his children knew that their mother was still living. It's it's it's a little vague. There is some speculation about why bullard would have fabricated such easily verifiable details in his autobiography. It is possible that he was trying to protect his daughters from some kind of speculation or maybe unpleasant information about himself or about their mother. He got custody after his daughters after the divorce, at which point they were nine and twelve and attending a convent boarding school. By the late nineteen thirties, bullard's violent altercations with racists had expanded to including violent altercations with Nazis. That might be more of a refinement than an expansion, I don't know. One of them had been a client at his athletic club. Bullard had twenty one flags hanging in the gym that represented the nationalities of all its various members, and this client wanted him to add the Nazi flag. Bullard threw him out. He so had at least one altercation with German men out on the streets of Montmart eventually, Paris municipal detective George La planquet approached Bullard about gathering information from Germans and passing it to the French Military Intelligence Service, Le Diizzy M bureau. Bullard knew German pretty well. He had started to learn it aboard the Marta Ross when he originally left the US for Europe. Bullard was assigned to work with Cleopatra Terrier, also known as Kitty, who bullard had seen around the bar and who he had assumed was a sex worker. It turned out that she had started actively spying on Germans in an attempt to avenge the murder of her father by a German during World War One. Bullard started eavesdropping on German patrons at the bar and the athletic club and also striking up conversations with them. Sometimes he and terrier worked together as a team at the bar. She would flirt and he would sort of play two stereotypes of black men as hapless or ignorant, and then they would pass everything they had learned back to the intelligence service. But other people noticed that Bullard was suddenly spending a lot more time talking to Germans and they grew suspicious of him. On July two nine, he was shot in the abdomen by Justin Peretti. Peretti was inebriated and thought that Bullard was spying for Germany, not spying on Germans for France. Peretti also accidentally shot himself during this attack. He survived. I think he accidentally shot himself in the buttocks, as you do. So bullard was immediately taken to the hospital and doctors initially did not think he would live. He did live, though, and he was released six days later. PERETTI's brothers apologized to bullard on his behalf and they bribed him not to press charges. They sort of framed this as wanting to compensate him for the at that his bar had to be closed. In the wake of all of this, it does not appear that Peretti was ever charged with anything. If he was, I was not able to find that out. After Germany invaded Poland on September one, ninety nine people started leaving Paris, especially Americans and others who were not from France, and we're worried about whether they'd be able to go home if they stayed. Bullard initially kept up his spy work and kept Les Caudrille Open to feed and entertain people, but eventually he had fewer and fewer patrons, and mandatory blackouts caused him to have to close up early every evening. He sold his car and he started focusing on making sure his friends who couldn't get out of Paris just had enough to eat. He would do the shopping with a hand cart that he made, buying whatever he could find an afford, and then the bar's cook would make it into a stew to feed as many people with it as possible. Once most of the people that Bullard knew were safely out of Paris, he closed up the bar and the athletic club. Wealthy American woman named June juet James invited him and his daughters to stay with her in new west of Paris, with bullard working as her chauffeur and waiter. At one point she was helping arrange a volunteer ambulance corps and hosted a dinner for potential funders and organizers. One of its guests was once again Dr Gross and, as we mentioned in part one, he had helped organize the American ambulance field service, probably why he was there. Bullard was wearing his dress uniform during this dinner and gross had expressed surprise that one of his medals was the Medai Milito, which was awarded for acts of bravery against an enemy force. Bullard responded, quote, Oh, I thought you kept all my records, just as you kept the scroll issued me by the French government, as it was to every member of the Flying Squadron. And then Bullard walked away, and this was the last time he and gross ever saw each other. Yeah, that's a scroll we mentioned in part one that he was supposed to get, and gross apparently never gave it to him. Sometime after this dinner, the intelligence service called Bullard back to Paris and he briefly tried to reopen the bar, but soon after that he decided to try to rejoin his old unit, the hundred and Seventie Infantry Regiment, which he had heard was fighting about a hundred miles east of Paris. Before he left, Kitty terrier promised him that she would keep his children safe. He seems to have really genuinely loved and doated on both of them. We're going to talk about Eugene's efforts to serve in World War Two after we have a quick sponsor break. When Eugene Jock Bullard decided to try to rejoin the French infantry. He was forty four and he spent day is going all around France, mostly on foot, as he tried to connect to the hundred and Seventieth Infantry, which he had served in before, or really to just any other units that he heard were fighting nearby. And what he encountered on the way was horrific. There were huge waves of starving refugees, villages that had been attacked and at one point a child standing next to the badly mutilated body of his mother. Bullard finally found a different unit, the fifty first infantry, in Orleans on June fifteenth. The major in command had also been an officer at Verdun, where Bullard had fought during World War One, and he accepted Bullard service and he assigned him to a machine gun company. Just three days later, an artillery shell exploded, killing eleven French soldiers and badly injuring Bullard, who was the only one of the group that was near this explosion to survive. The explosion threw him into a wall and he lived only because he kind of glanced off the wall at a angle rather than being thrown directly into it. But one of his vertebrae was fractured. Bullard did not want to give up at this point, but his commanding officer was worried about his safety. Beyond that of other soldiers, Bullard was a black man. He was a widely known hero from the First World War. He had been working in intelligence. There were understandable concerns about what would happen to him if the Nazis captured him and how news of his capture could affect the morale of other soldiers. So bullard was ordered to get to Spain and from there to go to the United States. Bullard spent a whole day on foot, at first using his rifle as a crutch and then abandoning that for a stick because he thought that the rifle might seem threatening. He got to a military hospital, which treated him as best they could and wrapped his bag to try to stabilize it. As he continued south. He got to be a Ritz not far from the Spanish border on June twenty. It four days after being injured. When bullard had left the United States. Almost three decades before, passports were not required for travel around Europe and most people just didn't have them. Although bullard had toured around a lot of Europe when he was a boxer. He had not gotten one at that point either, so when he tried to get passage to the United States, he had to try to prove who he really was. The console that beer it's questioned him and other people who knew him who happened to be passing through beerits as they tried to get out of Europe as well. So people were vouching for him and it was established that he was who said he was, that he really was from the United States. He was finally approved for us passport, but then he had to go back to Bordeaux to get it. Bullard was afraid of what would happen to his belongings if he was captured, so he left everything but the clothes he was wearing behind. American aviator R C Guarts, known as Craney, had also flown for France during World War One, shipped Bullard's belongings to the US for him care of Roger Baldwin at the A C L U offices in New York. Bullard went to Bordeaux, roughly one miles away by bicycle and then returned. His friend Charlie Levy was carrying refugees out of France across the Spanish border in an ambulance, and Bullard got a ride with him. Eugene Jacques Bullard finally got to Spain on July second nineteen forty and departed for the US ten days later. He arrived in New York harbor on July eight. Rooms had been arranged for all the American veterans of World War One who were on the ship with him, but not for him, who was the only black veteran on board. He was able to stay with an acquaintance he had known in Paris who had an apartment in New York, and to pick up all of his stuff from the A C L U office where it had been sent. Once it got there, bullard eventually moved into the predominantly Puerto Rican neighborhood of Spanish Harlem and he lived there for the rest of his life. But he also spent a lot of time in Lower Manhattan, which had a large French community. Among other things, bullard attended mass there, along with meetings of the Federation of French veterans of the Great War. He also received treatment for his spinal injury at a French hospital. After arriving in the US, Bullard also immediately started trying to get his daughters out of France. He worked with the Consulate and with William C bullet, who bullard had met while bullet was in Paris serving as ambassador to France. His daughters were also evacuated from France to Spain and they arrived in the United States on February three nine. Bullard tried to make ends meet through an assortment of odd jobs, starting with being a security guard. He also spent a lot of his time working with the France called MEM or France forever, which was the international arm of the Free France Movement. The Free France Movement supported Charles de Gaulle and the French government in exile in London, as well as French resistance efforts. Super Quick Recap here. After Germany defeated France, the French third republic was dissolved. In the French state that was established in its place was primarily run from the spot town of vichy. The vichy regime collaborated with the Nazis, while the free France movement continued to fight back. Bullard's work with free France included trying to recruit black pilots and airplane mechanics to serve in the free French forces. At this point, the US was already recruiting black people into the military, including pilots. The tuskegee airmen had been established that January. Bullard's thoughts aren't this aren't documented anywhere, but presumably he thought black people should have the opportunity to fight for France as part of an integrated unit, as he had done, rather than fighting for the US and a segregated one. We've also talked in some of our episodes about the military service of black people during this time, of the idea that people were fighting for a country that was not reading them as equal citizens, and Bullard may have been motivated by the idea that there was more equality in France and his experience than in the United States. Bullard also traveled around the US, visiting family members he had not seen in decades and introducing them to his daughters. This included making a trip to Columbus, Georgia in nineteen six, and he was continually confronted with how different the US was than the way he had lived in Paris. He was invited to a dinner honoring members of the French Foreign Legion in Nineteen forty two, but he got an anonymous letter warning him not to come because, quote, in the states, white and colored don't mix at social functions. During the peak skill riots in nineteen forty nine, someone spit on him and he spit back, leading to his being beaten by a police officer and losing most of the site in one of his eyes. While leaving peak skill, he had an altercation with a bus driver who tried to make him sit in the back. You can expect a future episode on the peak skill riots, because that is a whole other story certainly worthy of talking about. Yeah, it's been on my list forever and I was like, well, this seems like a good reason to bump it up to the top. Here's the transition. Boy Bullard also made some trips back to Europe, but he did not think it was possible to move back there. The building that had housed les caudrill burned down during the war. He didn't receive any kind of compensation for it. He did continue to be honored for his service, though. In nineteen fifty four, France brought him back for a Bastille Day observation. He was one of the three men who was part of re lighting the flame at the tomb of the unknown soldier. There are actually some pictures of him like laying a wreath of flowers there on October nine of nineteen fifty nine. He was also made a night in the French Legion of Honor at a ceremony that took place in the French consulate in New York. That happened on his sixty four birthday. Toward the end of his life, bullard started working on an autobiography called all blood runs red, although it was never published. He worked with an assistant, Louise Fox Connell, because he didn't think he could write well enough in English. Just a note that there is also a biography by that same title. That is a different work, although the nineteen seventy two biography titled the black swallow of death quotes from that one extensively. Yeah, if you go buy a copy of a book titled All Blood Runs Red, it's going to be a different thing. Um. There are still copies of it in archives though it exists. It was just never published. In nineteen fifty nine, Eleanor Roosevelt wrote about Bullard and her column my day. That was after Louise Fox Connell had sent her some clippings about Bullard to sort of try to work up some advanced publicity about their memoir and progress. At that point Bullard was working as an elevator operator at Rockefeller Center. Somebody made the connection that the Black Elevator operator at Rockefeller Center who wore French military medals on his uniform was the same person that Eleanor Roosevelt had written about in her column. After that he was invited to be on the today show that aired on December of nineteen fifty nine. In nineteen sixty, French President Charles de Gaul visited New York and Bullard was invited to meet him. He was a v I p guest and a member of degall's honor guard. On October twelfth nineteen sixty one, Eugene Jacques Bullard died of intestinal cancer in New York at the age of sixty six. He was buried at the Federation of French War Veterans Cemetery and Flushing New York, wearing his French military uniform. In nine four the US air force posthumously promoted him to second lieutenant, a rank that would have allowed him to fly for the US had it been allowing black pilots in World War One. On October nine nineteen, a statue of Bullard was unveiled at the Museum of Aviation at Warner Robbins Air Force Base in Georgia. There is also a bust of him in the collection of the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum. I'm glad I finally got to do the episode on Him, and I'm also glad I waited a while to do it because there was definitely way more information available than back in like Sten Ish, when people started sending us the viral facebook post sing you should do an episode on this guy. Yeah, uh, do you have some listener mail for us? I do. It's a listener tweet. This tweet came from Susie, who said Hey, at mimst in history and at one hundred nine nine native, you both covered the lowry war this week. Love when two of my faves overlap. And then uh, Smiley faced with hearts emoji. Um, native American calling, which is who has the twitter handle one native quote. tweeted that and said happy coincidence. Missed in history. Let's coordinate next time. So total random coincidence. We talked about the lowry war during the same week as native America calling did uh an episode that was about multiple different indigenous outlaws. I super recommend going and listening to this episode. Number One. Native America calling is a show that airs live on the radio, so it's one of those things where there's like very clear specific times that you have to do the ad breaks. So if you're listening to it and you're like, why did they cut that person off, that's why that was an ad. was going to go there. Number One, uh. It starts with news updates that are related to indigenous people in the US and if you are not up to speed on various social and news issues that affect the indigenous community like that is a minute to get a glimpse of that. Uh. And then they talked to multiple different people, um, about indigenous outlaws related to their specific indigenous tribe or nation. Um. I super recommend it because you're hearing directly from people about their own UH indigenous heritage. The person who talks about the LOWRY WAR UH is nancy fields. Nancy fields is actually one of the people I had seen on a panel Um, that was by the North Carolina Museum of history. That was part of the research for the lowry war episode. So in addition to talking to Nancy fields, the host of that episode, Seawan Spruce, talks to some other indigenous elders about people from their own tribe, nations, uh past. So I downloaded that as soon as I got this and I listened to it again. It is a radio show that it also comes out as a podcast, which you can find, I imagine, in any podcast APP. I founded an apple podcast and they're also at native America calling dot Com. Um. So thank you so much for to Susie for drawing our attention to the fact that we had this weird, totally random coincidence with a completely different show about the same subject. That does happen from farm to time, UM, and I'm glad I got the chance to listen to that myself as well. If you'd like to write to us about this or any other podcast, where at history podcast, at I heart radio DOT com. And you'll also find us all over social media at miss in history. 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