Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly Frye and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. We talked about spite houses this week. I love a spite house. You know why Why Because I love a grudge. I love a grudge. I think this came up when we were in Iceland on the bus one day where I was like, I love my grudges and I tend to them like a garden, and I love holding grudges. And there was a little bit of like shock. Yeah, there was some like what you do what I love a grudge? I love them, I do. I don't have a grudge unless someone earns it, and then then you don't grudge forever. You don't make the team again next year or ever again, you're off the list. But I also just love that level of petty where you're like, you know what, construction project. But as we noted in this in that episode, some of these spite houses don't seem like spite houses, right. I especially liked talking about the Alameda spite House and the fact that Froling Sun was like, no, no, dude, we were just poor and that's what we could afford to build. He couldn't buy another lot, and we wanted and he wanted a place to raise his family. So yeah, that's the house we made. I sort of love that. It's very charming in its own right. Yeah, there were a couple things I wanted to say about John Hollinsbury. Okay, one is that because I was really trying to find out more about him and information was pretty sparse. But one thing that I did keep finding in old newspapers for these ads that he would place selling things in the local paper, like this is a man who would have loved like Facebook marketplace or like Craigslist, because there were a lot of things of like one. He was a brickmaker, so these make sense. But the way the ads were placed, it was like if you would like a thousand bricks to my house, they're really really like please call on John Hollinsbury and that would be it, Or like I have carriage horses to sell, please come to my house. Like they were all very charming that way. And I wonder too if because he had built this house, everybody just knew which one was his house, so he didn't put anything other than come to my house come to the hollands Bury home. There's another thing that I couldn't definitively tie to him. I found a patent for a John W. Hollinsbury of Alexandria, Virginia in I think it's from eighteen twenty four and it's for a breech loading cannon. And I couldn't find any other John Hollinsbury's that were in the area. But I also couldn't be certain it was him, so he may have also invented a cannon, in which case, you know, he doesn't only have to have the one identity of making a spite house, even though that's what everybody knows him for. M I just found that interesting. Yeah, you can't build a spite house now, it's too hard. Nobody will allow it, nobody will give you the permits to build a spite house. Yeah. Yeah. Most municipalities have carefully recognized like if your structure is going to be obstructive to your neighbors in a way that is not reasonable, you can't build this. Or if the size and shape of it are in a way that doesn't make a lot of sense, like they can't be you just can't do it, which is Yeah, I'm like, is this gonna be an art form that will be lost over yet? Well, I think in addition to building codes and zoning requirements and stuff like that, now there is much more coordinated and easy to activate group and a lot of communities to argue against housing and for whatever. Oh yeah, like the like, there are a lot of building codes that make it really a lot easier now than before the days of building codes to bog down a project in approvals and hearings and public comment and that kind of stuff. So like, in addition to the building codes themselves, which I feel like, a building code that prevents you from building an inherently unsafe thing that is so close to the neighbor's house that like you have to like with less than an inch of space between your house and the neighbors. I'm like, I foresee this causing big problems in the future. So like, in addition to having laws to prevent that kind of building, like also having a system that makes it a lot easier to derail projects basically, right, Yeah, I mean there, it's interesting, right, the idea of building code gets into a whole other space, right, because there are certainly a lot of building codes that have been created that have very little to do with yeah, safety, Yeah, concern for anybody that are like inherently racist. Like, there's certain kinds of buildings you can't put in a neighborhood that would be primarily occupied by marginalized communities that are very racially oriented, and it's designed to keep those communities from thriving and having any kind of upward mobility for anyone. There are a lot of those, but yeah, I think, yeah, for a lot of spite houses, it's more like, please don't ruin your neighbor's life because you had a fight. Yeah, Yeah, I think there are a lot of building codes. We've talked about so many fires especially, Yeah, and like building codes are important and necessary to build structures that hopefully are not deadly fire traps from the moment that they're opened. But also like there's a lot of building codes that have been passed in the last decades and centuries that just create a bottleneck for actually building the housing that communities need. Yeah, of the reasons we have a housing crisis in a lot of the United States, a lot of giant empty houses and people would nowhere to live. Simultaneously, one of the one of the one of the causes. Please please do not email me link the explanations about the causes of the housing crisis. I'm aware right, Like I said, there are a lot of other spite houses that I want to talk about. If anyone listening is a big fan of the Plumb Island spite House and the efforts going on right now to try to say that house, please know I know about it, and it's top of the list for next time around. But part of why it didn't go on this one there's some legal and financial juggling going on right now. It's an older structure and it's in very bad shape, and there is the threat that it's going to be torn down, but there are a lot of people that are trying to save it, and that is in like a stasis state it appears right now, at least in terms of what I was able to uncover, So I didn't want to just like leave it as kind of a floppy I don't know right Maybe it's still there when we publish. Maybe it got torn down in the two weeks between when we recorded and when it goes live, So that's why that's not on there. But it is on my list for a future version of this. I think of these, the only one we know for sure is a spite house is the doctor Tyler one MM, who was like, no, no, no road here, I'm under construction. I love that idea so much. Bias for action for spite is very much in my wheelhouse of love. That might be my love language. Yeah, well in that case in particular, right, because he did try to do everything through legal channels. You know, he went to city planning meetings, he went through various offices and filed protest documentation and tried to explain that that was gonna you know, impact him in a negative way, and they were like too bad. So he, you know, took matters into his own hands. Yeah, SPIKEE spite House. I love you, spite House. If you would like a thousand bricks, just come to my house. I gotcha. I don't know why that's so funny to me. Yeah, just come to my house, dude, I gotcha, I gotcha. It occurs to me that it would be fun to do a tour of spite houses. Yeah, but the problem is that many of these are privately owned homes. Yes, yeah, the people that own I'm trying to remember which one it might be the Alimita Spite spite House, which again is not really a spite house. In the interview with the East Bay Times that they did, they mention like people are not especially respectful of them as a private residence. Oh yeah, like she the woman that was interviewed, told a story about how like at one point on a Halloween a trick or trader just walked in and started commenting on the house, and she was like, not someone she had invited in, just like barrel Paspers and that like people will just come and knock on the door and stuff. So that would be the downfall or the downside I guess of living in a unique structure like that. I mean the flip right, the one in Alexandria. Those people seem pretty accustomed to people doing that. However, it is also not their only or primary residence, so it probably is not as disruptive to their day to day lives right to have tourists standing outside it, reaching their arms out and going, look how skinny this house is, which brings me to my last point. Okay, people may have noticed that we avoided superlatives like this is the skinniests spied out. This is the sure several houses claim that I think, unless there's one I haven't found that the one in Alexandria is the narrowest at seven feet, because the others that we mentioned are all like ten feet the other two that we mentioned, but I don't know for sure, and I don't you know, They're all just interesting in their own right. Right, I'm here for this spite house. There are also a couple I want to cover that are no longer exist, and so it's going to take a little more work to find information and make sure I have the write info on them. But spite houses. We talked about founding father Robert Morris this week. Yeah, I have some thoughts about him. Yeah, I like how we both just sort of stopped. Tell us your thoughts, Holly. Well, first, I'll include a thing that I didn't put in the episode. There are a couple things about his youth and his father that are not really substantiated. One is that his father died in a freak accident where there were two ships involved. A fly allegedly landed on his father's nose and he swatted it away, and the other ship took that as a signal to fire their cannons and that's how he died. I don't know if that's true, but it's an interesting story. Oh. Also, how would anyone survive to know there was a fly involved at that point? I don't know. I have that question with a lot of stories like this. Seems like no one would have been there to witness this, So how do we know? And if they were, who are they? The other thing that can't really be substantiated at all, and I wondered it from the gate in reading the little we have about his youth, I was like, wait, why was his dad in the colonies already while he was still in England? Like what is going on there? And the supposition by some historians is that Robert may have been born out of wedlock. He appears to have been raised by his maternal grandmother, So it could just be that his mom was somehow not in the picture for another reason, but that his grandmother raised him until he was old enough to go to be with his father. Okay, again, that's not substantiated, but I wanted to mention it in case anybody's like, yeah, but what exactly was going on there? I don't know for sure that seems like a sound theory. But can you imagine I can if someone like a congressman was like, oh yeah, I was on this committee that was supposed to raise money and we didn't raise money enough, so I just wrote a check. What like if it's supposed to be an official government channel situation, right right, it seems very odd to me somebody's gonna write us and be like that happens all the time. Here are examples and maybe, but I don't think so. I feel like everything I could say about this is just gonna get me yelled at. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So that's fascinating. I also do like that the way the investigation into his dealings as Superintendent of Finance, uh huh is very like, don't worry about it. We looked into it. Yeah. Well, I kind of wondered whether or how his using his position to enrich himself led to any perceptions or standards about doing that in the future, because there are still plenty of ways that people serving in the US government can enrich themselves through their jobs. Yeah, some of which are basically illegal, but others are not. And so I was just I don't know, it was I was curious about that and that also seems like the you know, somebody's PhD thesis, not something that we can figure out in a week on our podcast. Yeah, yeah, because there it may have been a factor, but we would have to comb through like all of the writing of every legislator who introduced bills or whatever trying to reform and amend those kinds of practices, which, as you just said, it is not really something we can do over the course of a week. Yeah, it's I definitely found it very very intriguing. How much in reading about him, it splits so fifty to fifty of super crazy he was. You know, he's the reason that the US exists because without the money that he came up with, we never would have been able to stand up to Britain blah blah blah, et cetera, et cetera, and other who are like super shady. Right, it splits completely down the middle. Yeah. Yeah. My take is always that probably irritatingly middle ground of like both can be true. You know, he clearly did get a lot of stuff done. He clearly was close with a lot of the people that the US likes to hold up as like icons of our foundation. But it doesn't mean, he was in a little slippery about some of it. I loved that quote from the William and Mary nineteen thirty four piece where it was like it was like, no, absolutely here, here are all the ways this could easily work for him to be doing this right and juggling money on the back end in ways that no one could ever track, especially when you consider that when he took that job, he was like, by the way, I have rules. Those rules are nobody's the bossami, which is you know a thing. Uh, let's put kitties in charge. It will be like naps in the sunbeam all day. Maybe I was just saying. One of our newer kiddies is diabolical. She's super smart and a little bit sneaky, so I don't think she should be in charge. As much as I love and adore her, but she's like I really expect to wake up in the middle of the night and have her tiny paws gripped around my hand with a pen in it, signing away the deed to my house. She's just like that, smart and diabolical. And her sister is very sweet and not a fool, but she's not that diabolical, right right? I like in the nature or nurture question, Like here's an obvious example, Like, yeah, they are from the same litter, and one of them owns the house already and probably has power of attorney I don't even know about. And the other one is like I just want to sleep in my tower. Yeah, anyway, I had to turn it to kitties in the interest of levity. Yeah, just remember, all the stories that you hear are told from someone's point of view. I'll say that about history, all of history. I mean, we talk about this. We're both pretty transparent about that with us, like it's told from our point of view, and we try to take in all of the the information we can from a variety of sources and ideally primary sources, and we try to be objective as we evaluate that information. But everybody comes to every table with a little bit of bias, whether they're conscious of it or not. And even if you're conscious of it and working against it, you can't eradicate it. So yeah, always keep that in mind, just as a rule of thumb. Yeah. Well, and I will also say, this is totally true everything that you just said, and it's also totally true that it's possible to take it just a bad faith reading of things and leave stuff out on purpose, just tell a specific narrative of for example, the founders as flawless idealists, which to me, I mean, from my perspective, is not very interesting. Now, it's more meaningful to me to know that the people that were trying to build something new and what they hoped would be better were messy, because like, it's it's that that blaki and thing of like you can't really be good unless you know of evil, unless you you know, like it's it's not it's not realistic, and it also creates this complete fictional stand and of behavior that's not realistic. Right, It's it's more interesting to know they were grappling with their own mess and yet still managed to pull through a fairly ideological government plan with a lot of money problems, Yeah, and also problems about who was fully a person, right, I mean, obviously that's like a huge thing. There are a lot of problems with you know, the the early stages of the US story that get really really occluded in a lot of discussion of them. But they are also a lot of founding fathers that we don't talk about very much, and we might do some more on on some more of them, because they're they're there. They count in the in the mix. But Robert Morris is not somebody I was ever taught a lot about in school either. I don't really remember ever being taught about him in school. That doesn't mean I wasn't ever, but I have no memory of it. Yeah. But yeah, definitely not in the mix of all the heavy hitters, even though he was a heavy hitter. Yeah, so interesting, Just again history, history comes with bias. If you are headed into some time off this weekend, I hope it's amazing. I hope you can give your brain arrest from the tumult of the world, and that you can do some things you love, be with the people and animals and whatever else you love, the art you love, and that you are cool to everybody that you encounter, and everybody is cool to you. If this is not your time off coming up and you have obligations or you have to work, I also hope everybody's really nice to you and nobody's in jerk, and that we all try to do better. I can always be improving because I have dark thoughts. Sometimes I got mad at somebody on the phone last week. It happens. We're working on it, but in any case, I hope everybody is finding whatever pockets of joy you can. We will be right back here tomorrow with a classic episode and then on Monday with something brand new. Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly Frye and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. We talked about spite houses this week. I love a spite house. You know why Why Because I love a grudge. I love a grudge. I think this came up when we were in Iceland on the bus one day where I was like, I love my grudges and I tend to them like a garden, and I love holding grudges. And there was a little bit of like shock. Yeah, there was some like what you do what I love a grudge? I love them, I do. I don't have a grudge unless someone earns it, and then then you don't grudge forever. You don't make the team again next year or ever again, you're off the list. But I also just love that level of petty where you're like, you know what, construction project. But as we noted in this in that episode, some of these spite houses don't seem like spite houses, right. I especially liked talking about the Alameda spite House and the fact that Froling Sun was like, no, no, dude, we were just poor and that's what we could afford to build. He couldn't buy another lot, and we wanted and he wanted a place to raise his family. So yeah, that's the house we made. I sort of love that. It's very charming in its own right. Yeah, there were a couple things I wanted to say about John Hollinsbury. Okay, one is that because I was really trying to find out more about him and information was pretty sparse. But one thing that I did keep finding in old newspapers for these ads that he would place selling things in the local paper, like this is a man who would have loved like Facebook marketplace or like Craigslist, because there were a lot of things of like one. He was a brickmaker, so these make sense. But the way the ads were placed, it was like if you would like a thousand bricks to my house, they're really really like please call on John Hollinsbury and that would be it, Or like I have carriage horses to sell, please come to my house. Like they were all very charming that way. And I wonder too if because he had built this house, everybody just knew which one was his house, so he didn't put anything other than come to my house come to the hollands Bury home. There's another thing that I couldn't definitively tie to him. I found a patent for a John W. Hollinsbury of Alexandria, Virginia in I think it's from eighteen twenty four and it's for a breech loading cannon. And I couldn't find any other John Hollinsbury's that were in the area. But I also couldn't be certain it was him, so he may have also invented a cannon, in which case, you know, he doesn't only have to have the one identity of making a spite house, even though that's what everybody knows him for. M I just found that interesting. Yeah, you can't build a spite house now, it's too hard. Nobody will allow it, nobody will give you the permits to build a spite house. Yeah. Yeah. Most municipalities have carefully recognized like if your structure is going to be obstructive to your neighbors in a way that is not reasonable, you can't build this. Or if the size and shape of it are in a way that doesn't make a lot of sense, like they can't be you just can't do it, which is Yeah, I'm like, is this gonna be an art form that will be lost over yet? Well, I think in addition to building codes and zoning requirements and stuff like that, now there is much more coordinated and easy to activate group and a lot of communities to argue against housing and for whatever. Oh yeah, like the like, there are a lot of building codes that make it really a lot easier now than before the days of building codes to bog down a project in approvals and hearings and public comment and that kind of stuff. So like, in addition to the building codes themselves, which I feel like, a building code that prevents you from building an inherently unsafe thing that is so close to the neighbor's house that like you have to like with less than an inch of space between your house and the neighbors. I'm like, I foresee this causing big problems in the future. So like, in addition to having laws to prevent that kind of building, like also having a system that makes it a lot easier to derail projects basically, right, Yeah, I mean there, it's interesting, right, the idea of building code gets into a whole other space, right, because there are certainly a lot of building codes that have been created that have very little to do with yeah, safety, Yeah, concern for anybody that are like inherently racist. Like, there's certain kinds of buildings you can't put in a neighborhood that would be primarily occupied by marginalized communities that are very racially oriented, and it's designed to keep those communities from thriving and having any kind of upward mobility for anyone. There are a lot of those, but yeah, I think, yeah, for a lot of spite houses, it's more like, please don't ruin your neighbor's life because you had a fight. Yeah, Yeah, I think there are a lot of building codes. We've talked about so many fires especially, Yeah, and like building codes are important and necessary to build structures that hopefully are not deadly fire traps from the moment that they're opened. But also like there's a lot of building codes that have been passed in the last decades and centuries that just create a bottleneck for actually building the housing that communities need. Yeah, of the reasons we have a housing crisis in a lot of the United States, a lot of giant empty houses and people would nowhere to live. Simultaneously, one of the one of the one of the causes. Please please do not email me link the explanations about the causes of the housing crisis. I'm aware right, Like I said, there are a lot of other spite houses that I want to talk about. If anyone listening is a big fan of the Plumb Island spite House and the efforts going on right now to try to say that house, please know I know about it, and it's top of the list for next time around. But part of why it didn't go on this one there's some legal and financial juggling going on right now. It's an older structure and it's in very bad shape, and there is the threat that it's going to be torn down, but there are a lot of people that are trying to save it, and that is in like a stasis state it appears right now, at least in terms of what I was able to uncover, So I didn't want to just like leave it as kind of a floppy I don't know right Maybe it's still there when we publish. Maybe it got torn down in the two weeks between when we recorded and when it goes live, So that's why that's not on there. But it is on my list for a future version of this. I think of these, the only one we know for sure is a spite house is the doctor Tyler one MM, who was like, no, no, no road here, I'm under construction. I love that idea so much. Bias for action for spite is very much in my wheelhouse of love. That might be my love language. Yeah, well in that case in particular, right, because he did try to do everything through legal channels. You know, he went to city planning meetings, he went through various offices and filed protest documentation and tried to explain that that was gonna you know, impact him in a negative way, and they were like too bad. So he, you know, took matters into his own hands. Yeah, SPIKEE spite House. I love you, spite House. If you would like a thousand bricks, just come to my house. I gotcha. I don't know why that's so funny to me. Yeah, just come to my house, dude, I gotcha, I gotcha. It occurs to me that it would be fun to do a tour of spite houses. Yeah, but the problem is that many of these are privately owned homes. Yes, yeah, the people that own I'm trying to remember which one it might be the Alimita Spite spite House, which again is not really a spite house. In the interview with the East Bay Times that they did, they mention like people are not especially respectful of them as a private residence. Oh yeah, like she the woman that was interviewed, told a story about how like at one point on a Halloween a trick or trader just walked in and started commenting on the house, and she was like, not someone she had invited in, just like barrel Paspers and that like people will just come and knock on the door and stuff. So that would be the downfall or the downside I guess of living in a unique structure like that. I mean the flip right, the one in Alexandria. Those people seem pretty accustomed to people doing that. However, it is also not their only or primary residence, so it probably is not as disruptive to their day to day lives right to have tourists standing outside it, reaching their arms out and going, look how skinny this house is, which brings me to my last point. Okay, people may have noticed that we avoided superlatives like this is the skinniests spied out. This is the sure several houses claim that I think, unless there's one I haven't found that the one in Alexandria is the narrowest at seven feet, because the others that we mentioned are all like ten feet the other two that we mentioned, but I don't know for sure, and I don't you know, They're all just interesting in their own right. Right, I'm here for this spite house. There are also a couple I want to cover that are no longer exist, and so it's going to take a little more work to find information and make sure I have the write info on them. But spite houses. We talked about founding father Robert Morris this week. Yeah, I have some thoughts about him. Yeah, I like how we both just sort of stopped. Tell us your thoughts, Holly. Well, first, I'll include a thing that I didn't put in the episode. There are a couple things about his youth and his father that are not really substantiated. One is that his father died in a freak accident where there were two ships involved. A fly allegedly landed on his father's nose and he swatted it away, and the other ship took that as a signal to fire their cannons and that's how he died. I don't know if that's true, but it's an interesting story. Oh. Also, how would anyone survive to know there was a fly involved at that point? I don't know. I have that question with a lot of stories like this. Seems like no one would have been there to witness this, So how do we know? And if they were, who are they? The other thing that can't really be substantiated at all, and I wondered it from the gate in reading the little we have about his youth, I was like, wait, why was his dad in the colonies already while he was still in England? Like what is going on there? And the supposition by some historians is that Robert may have been born out of wedlock. He appears to have been raised by his maternal grandmother, So it could just be that his mom was somehow not in the picture for another reason, but that his grandmother raised him until he was old enough to go to be with his father. Okay, again, that's not substantiated, but I wanted to mention it in case anybody's like, yeah, but what exactly was going on there? I don't know for sure that seems like a sound theory. But can you imagine I can if someone like a congressman was like, oh yeah, I was on this committee that was supposed to raise money and we didn't raise money enough, so I just wrote a check. What like if it's supposed to be an official government channel situation, right right, it seems very odd to me somebody's gonna write us and be like that happens all the time. Here are examples and maybe, but I don't think so. I feel like everything I could say about this is just gonna get me yelled at. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So that's fascinating. I also do like that the way the investigation into his dealings as Superintendent of Finance, uh huh is very like, don't worry about it. We looked into it. Yeah. Well, I kind of wondered whether or how his using his position to enrich himself led to any perceptions or standards about doing that in the future, because there are still plenty of ways that people serving in the US government can enrich themselves through their jobs. Yeah, some of which are basically illegal, but others are not. And so I was just I don't know, it was I was curious about that and that also seems like the you know, somebody's PhD thesis, not something that we can figure out in a week on our podcast. Yeah, yeah, because there it may have been a factor, but we would have to comb through like all of the writing of every legislator who introduced bills or whatever trying to reform and amend those kinds of practices, which, as you just said, it is not really something we can do over the course of a week. Yeah, it's I definitely found it very very intriguing. How much in reading about him, it splits so fifty to fifty of super crazy he was. You know, he's the reason that the US exists because without the money that he came up with, we never would have been able to stand up to Britain blah blah blah, et cetera, et cetera, and other who are like super shady. Right, it splits completely down the middle. Yeah. Yeah. My take is always that probably irritatingly middle ground of like both can be true. You know, he clearly did get a lot of stuff done. He clearly was close with a lot of the people that the US likes to hold up as like icons of our foundation. But it doesn't mean, he was in a little slippery about some of it. I loved that quote from the William and Mary nineteen thirty four piece where it was like it was like, no, absolutely here, here are all the ways this could easily work for him to be doing this right and juggling money on the back end in ways that no one could ever track, especially when you consider that when he took that job, he was like, by the way, I have rules. Those rules are nobody's the bossami, which is you know a thing. Uh, let's put kitties in charge. It will be like naps in the sunbeam all day. Maybe I was just saying. One of our newer kiddies is diabolical. She's super smart and a little bit sneaky, so I don't think she should be in charge. As much as I love and adore her, but she's like I really expect to wake up in the middle of the night and have her tiny paws gripped around my hand with a pen in it, signing away the deed to my house. She's just like that, smart and diabolical. And her sister is very sweet and not a fool, but she's not that diabolical, right right? I like in the nature or nurture question, Like here's an obvious example, Like, yeah, they are from the same litter, and one of them owns the house already and probably has power of attorney I don't even know about. And the other one is like I just want to sleep in my tower. Yeah, anyway, I had to turn it to kitties in the interest of levity. Yeah, just remember, all the stories that you hear are told from someone's point of view. I'll say that about history, all of history. I mean, we talk about this. We're both pretty transparent about that with us, like it's told from our point of view, and we try to take in all of the the information we can from a variety of sources and ideally primary sources, and we try to be objective as we evaluate that information. But everybody comes to every table with a little bit of bias, whether they're conscious of it or not. And even if you're conscious of it and working against it, you can't eradicate it. So yeah, always keep that in mind, just as a rule of thumb. Yeah. Well, and I will also say, this is totally true everything that you just said, and it's also totally true that it's possible to take it just a bad faith reading of things and leave stuff out on purpose, just tell a specific narrative of for example, the founders as flawless idealists, which to me, I mean, from my perspective, is not very interesting. Now, it's more meaningful to me to know that the people that were trying to build something new and what they hoped would be better were messy, because like, it's it's that that blaki and thing of like you can't really be good unless you know of evil, unless you you know, like it's it's not it's not realistic, and it also creates this complete fictional stand and of behavior that's not realistic. Right, It's it's more interesting to know they were grappling with their own mess and yet still managed to pull through a fairly ideological government plan with a lot of money problems, Yeah, and also problems about who was fully a person, right, I mean, obviously that's like a huge thing. There are a lot of problems with you know, the the early stages of the US story that get really really occluded in a lot of discussion of them. But they are also a lot of founding fathers that we don't talk about very much, and we might do some more on on some more of them, because they're they're there. They count in the in the mix. But Robert Morris is not somebody I was ever taught a lot about in school either. I don't really remember ever being taught about him in school. That doesn't mean I wasn't ever, but I have no memory of it. Yeah. But yeah, definitely not in the mix of all the heavy hitters, even though he was a heavy hitter. Yeah, so interesting, Just again history, history comes with bias. If you are headed into some time off this weekend, I hope it's amazing. I hope you can give your brain arrest from the tumult of the world, and that you can do some things you love, be with the people and animals and whatever else you love, the art you love, and that you are cool to everybody that you encounter, and everybody is cool to you. If this is not your time off coming up and you have obligations or you have to work, I also hope everybody's really nice to you and nobody's in jerk, and that we all try to do better. I can always be improving because I have dark thoughts. Sometimes I got mad at somebody on the phone last week. It happens. We're working on it, but in any case, I hope everybody is finding whatever pockets of joy you can. We will be right back here tomorrow with a classic episode and then on Monday with something brand new. Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. 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