From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A production of iHeartRadio.

From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A production of iHeartRadio.

Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is matt Our Powell Nol is still on an adventure, but will be returning shortly.

Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is matt Our Powell Nol is still on an adventure, but will be returning shortly.

They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our guest super producer. You know him, you love them. It's Max the freight Train Williams. Most importantly, you are you. You are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. We're diving back into something that has fascinated both of us and hopefully you. Fellow conspiracy realist played along at Home nearly seven years after his death. Charles Mills Manson remains one of America because most well known Madmen cult leader would be music star, best known not for his association with the Beach Boys.

They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our guest super producer. You know him, you love them. It's Max the freight Train Williams. Most importantly, you are you. You are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. We're diving back into something that has fascinated both of us and hopefully you. Fellow conspiracy realist played along at Home nearly seven years after his death. Charles Mills Manson remains one of America because most well known Madmen cult leader would be music star, best known not for his association with the Beach Boys.

Correct his music, by the way, I was kind of rocking some of it while we were doing research this week, and I don't hate it, man. Yeah, I mean I don't love it, but I don't hate it. I kind of feel what he was doing. It's tough.

Correct his music, by the way, I was kind of rocking some of it while we were doing research this week, and I don't hate it, man. Yeah, I mean I don't love it, but I don't hate it. I kind of feel what he was doing. It's tough.

To make it in the world of entertainment. And that's you know, that applies to Charles Manson as well as everybody else, all the independent musicians in the crowd this evening. Manson is best known for running a cult loosely called the Family than the Manson Family in the late nineteen sixties for relatively short period of time. They are known to have committed at least nine murders in California, and decades later, people still wonder whether there's more to the story. So our question is this, and hear us out. Could Charles Manson have been connected to the CIA?

To make it in the world of entertainment. And that's you know, that applies to Charles Manson as well as everybody else, all the independent musicians in the crowd this evening. Manson is best known for running a cult loosely called the Family than the Manson Family in the late nineteen sixties for relatively short period of time. They are known to have committed at least nine murders in California, and decades later, people still wonder whether there's more to the story. So our question is this, and hear us out. Could Charles Manson have been connected to the CIA?

Definitely, We'll be right back.

Definitely, We'll be right back.

Here are the facts. In previous episodes, we explored Manson's life in depth. He had a really tragic, troubled childhood. We looked at his early life, which was a lot of juvie and prison time, up to his rise as a cult leader when he was in his early thirties and his messiotic ambition to rule the world literally all the way to his conviction his imprisonment. I think it's a story most Americans know on at least some level, right, Like everybody has heard the name.

Here are the facts. In previous episodes, we explored Manson's life in depth. He had a really tragic, troubled childhood. We looked at his early life, which was a lot of juvie and prison time, up to his rise as a cult leader when he was in his early thirties and his messiotic ambition to rule the world literally all the way to his conviction his imprisonment. I think it's a story most Americans know on at least some level, right, Like everybody has heard the name.

Oh, for sure. There are all kinds of iconic interviews that went out there, especially if you were a kid, I don't know coming of age in the nineties. There was a nineteen ninety three interview with Diane Sawyer that really like, let you kind of feel the character of Charles Manson.

Oh, for sure. There are all kinds of iconic interviews that went out there, especially if you were a kid, I don't know coming of age in the nineties. There was a nineteen ninety three interview with Diane Sawyer that really like, let you kind of feel the character of Charles Manson.

I roll the Nichols The game is Mine.

I roll the Nichols The game is Mine.

Oh dude, I broke no law. I didn't step out aligne with God. I didn't step out alive with the law.

Oh dude, I broke no law. I didn't step out aligne with God. I didn't step out alive with the law.

I bounced a few checks.

I bounced a few checks.

I told those people the same thing that the United States President would tell them. The only way that you can dispense Saint life and death is you have to be willing to give yourself to that cause. You have to fight a revolution. You can't do anything unless you can. And he just kind of goes on and on and on.

I told those people the same thing that the United States President would tell them. The only way that you can dispense Saint life and death is you have to be willing to give yourself to that cause. You have to fight a revolution. You can't do anything unless you can. And he just kind of goes on and on and on.

My favorite's probably the non verbal thing he does when they say who are you? And he does the quick cavalcade of character acting and emoting.

My favorite's probably the non verbal thing he does when they say who are you? And he does the quick cavalcade of character acting and emoting.

Well and then lyrics to songs. He's often throwing in lyrics, and I think it's really important to when you're thinking about this person as we're going through their life. That thing you mentioned Ben that he spent a lot of his time in juvenile detention and then in prison, and he sounds to me a lot like interactions that that our team had with Wayne Williams, where it's somebody who is very good at saying something to kind of throw you off of whatever the question is or the line that you want to be talking about, and saying something to kind of interrupt that and then take you on a completely different direction and take you down that line far enough to where you almost if you're not really paying attention or taking notes, you might have even forgot what you were talking about in the first place. It brings to me, I don't know if sociopathy is correct, but maybe just manipulation tactics are really heavy with this person.

Well and then lyrics to songs. He's often throwing in lyrics, and I think it's really important to when you're thinking about this person as we're going through their life. That thing you mentioned Ben that he spent a lot of his time in juvenile detention and then in prison, and he sounds to me a lot like interactions that that our team had with Wayne Williams, where it's somebody who is very good at saying something to kind of throw you off of whatever the question is or the line that you want to be talking about, and saying something to kind of interrupt that and then take you on a completely different direction and take you down that line far enough to where you almost if you're not really paying attention or taking notes, you might have even forgot what you were talking about in the first place. It brings to me, I don't know if sociopathy is correct, but maybe just manipulation tactics are really heavy with this person.

Yeah, with both of them, and that team MAT's referring to, folks, is the production with Tenderfoot.

Yeah, with both of them, and that team MAT's referring to, folks, is the production with Tenderfoot.

Yeah mostly Yeah, Alex and Paine and Donald and myself and a bunch of other people. But just I've interacted with somebody like that, I guess is what I mean to say, And you really pick up on it when you watch these iconic interviews with him. So let's jump in and let's learn about who this person was early on again.

Yeah mostly Yeah, Alex and Paine and Donald and myself and a bunch of other people. But just I've interacted with somebody like that, I guess is what I mean to say, And you really pick up on it when you watch these iconic interviews with him. So let's jump in and let's learn about who this person was early on again.

Yeah, so quick and dirty recap, folks, you probably if you live in the US, you probably have heard of Charles Manson, even if you were born far after those horrific events in the late sixties early seventies. For a quick and dirty recap, I'd like us look at the timeline. Charles Manson is born November twelfth, nineteen thirty four, in Cincinnati, Ohio. His mother is sixteen at the time. He never knew his father, and as far as we know, I'd never had any contact with him throughout his life. When he was still very young, his mother is convicted and imprisoned for armed robbery, so he gets sent to live in West Virginia with some relatives nouns and an uncle. And from an early age he's on the wrong side of the law, Like mentioned earlier, beginning at just nine years old, he starts being in and out a juvie and then later prison for a lot of what we might call miscre inactivity or small time crime. There is just to be very clear, it is almost certain that he was sexually assaulted in the system. He would later, as we know, assault other people. If we fast forward, it's nineteen sixty seven, he is thirty two years old. He's released from California's Terminal Island Prison and from there he goes to San Francisco. He has been incarcerated roughly half his life at this time, and the hippie movement is in full swing. There are tons of disillusioned, often younger people, kind of drifting, searching for meaning or a cause. This is fertile soil for a man with the ambitions of Charles Manson.

Yeah, so quick and dirty recap, folks, you probably if you live in the US, you probably have heard of Charles Manson, even if you were born far after those horrific events in the late sixties early seventies. For a quick and dirty recap, I'd like us look at the timeline. Charles Manson is born November twelfth, nineteen thirty four, in Cincinnati, Ohio. His mother is sixteen at the time. He never knew his father, and as far as we know, I'd never had any contact with him throughout his life. When he was still very young, his mother is convicted and imprisoned for armed robbery, so he gets sent to live in West Virginia with some relatives nouns and an uncle. And from an early age he's on the wrong side of the law, Like mentioned earlier, beginning at just nine years old, he starts being in and out a juvie and then later prison for a lot of what we might call miscre inactivity or small time crime. There is just to be very clear, it is almost certain that he was sexually assaulted in the system. He would later, as we know, assault other people. If we fast forward, it's nineteen sixty seven, he is thirty two years old. He's released from California's Terminal Island Prison and from there he goes to San Francisco. He has been incarcerated roughly half his life at this time, and the hippie movement is in full swing. There are tons of disillusioned, often younger people, kind of drifting, searching for meaning or a cause. This is fertile soil for a man with the ambitions of Charles Manson.

It is fertile soil. And it's there's a reason for all of that disillusionment, right. I mean, we've talked about the history of that time, and you know, Vietnam War and what was going on, and the disillusionment in general of that Americans were having with the system, right that just everybody was kind of like, oh wow, wait a minute, we can kind of see the man behind the curtain here, and it doesn't feel good to know that that's what we're doing and kind of why we're doing it. And I don't want to lose that fact that he said. Ben at nine years old, he started going into the system, like thinking about what that does to an individual's mind, what the world is, how it functions, what structures are like, what time even is like if you're in the system that often, and especially from that age, it's and then and then to come out and then I guess, find a group of people somehow that I don't know, I don't know how to put it. Ben, to find a group of people that is somewhat like minded, right as you said, within this movement, the hippie movement, and then to be I don't know, he has this charisma about him. I keep trying to figure out how he really developed that charisma other than just somewhat manipulating people as he's going through the system.

It is fertile soil. And it's there's a reason for all of that disillusionment, right. I mean, we've talked about the history of that time, and you know, Vietnam War and what was going on, and the disillusionment in general of that Americans were having with the system, right that just everybody was kind of like, oh wow, wait a minute, we can kind of see the man behind the curtain here, and it doesn't feel good to know that that's what we're doing and kind of why we're doing it. And I don't want to lose that fact that he said. Ben at nine years old, he started going into the system, like thinking about what that does to an individual's mind, what the world is, how it functions, what structures are like, what time even is like if you're in the system that often, and especially from that age, it's and then and then to come out and then I guess, find a group of people somehow that I don't know, I don't know how to put it. Ben, to find a group of people that is somewhat like minded, right as you said, within this movement, the hippie movement, and then to be I don't know, he has this charisma about him. I keep trying to figure out how he really developed that charisma other than just somewhat manipulating people as he's going through the system.

Would say it's a mater of survival, probably given his formative years spent in such a hostile environment. One learns to be intensely observant, and one learns how to push the right psychological levers in a way that makes your environment hopefully a little less hostile. However, you would understand that right and.

Would say it's a mater of survival, probably given his formative years spent in such a hostile environment. One learns to be intensely observant, and one learns how to push the right psychological levers in a way that makes your environment hopefully a little less hostile. However, you would understand that right and.

Sot it, so that's like people and well mostly manipulating people so that the entirety of your surroundings are better for you, I guess.

Sot it, so that's like people and well mostly manipulating people so that the entirety of your surroundings are better for you, I guess.

I guess. Another thing to add in here is that he did not have very much at all in the way of formal education. But education and intelligence are two different things you can never see the inside of a classroom for the entirety of your life and still be quite a wise person. And so his intellectual acumen, we could speculate, was as a matter of survival, a necessity solely centered on escaping a hostile environment, dodging maybe consequences of actions. And because of this this keen almost supernatural observational ability and manipulative capacity. The official narrative is that he used this to attract a group of young, kind of drifting people that we would call hippies, and you know, like the the burnouts and the washed, washed aways of American society. This was very common in this time because there were so many protest movements, there were so many anti war movements, movements for racial equality or civil rights or even racial supremacy, and this in this milieu, we see that he gets a group of people. They're a small group at first, but they're very devoted. They start to get its street name, they're becoming a religious commune. They're starting to be called, loosely, the family. And if they had in the beginning a mission statement, it was a cult of personality centered around Manson, the idea being that we will study and apply this guy's spiritual or even religious teachings. And the best way to describe those is kind of like it's similar to scientology in that it's a mix of ideas called from science fiction, from readings of the occult, from fringe psychological theories.

I guess. Another thing to add in here is that he did not have very much at all in the way of formal education. But education and intelligence are two different things you can never see the inside of a classroom for the entirety of your life and still be quite a wise person. And so his intellectual acumen, we could speculate, was as a matter of survival, a necessity solely centered on escaping a hostile environment, dodging maybe consequences of actions. And because of this this keen almost supernatural observational ability and manipulative capacity. The official narrative is that he used this to attract a group of young, kind of drifting people that we would call hippies, and you know, like the the burnouts and the washed, washed aways of American society. This was very common in this time because there were so many protest movements, there were so many anti war movements, movements for racial equality or civil rights or even racial supremacy, and this in this milieu, we see that he gets a group of people. They're a small group at first, but they're very devoted. They start to get its street name, they're becoming a religious commune. They're starting to be called, loosely, the family. And if they had in the beginning a mission statement, it was a cult of personality centered around Manson, the idea being that we will study and apply this guy's spiritual or even religious teachings. And the best way to describe those is kind of like it's similar to scientology in that it's a mix of ideas called from science fiction, from readings of the occult, from fringe psychological theories.

Yeah, and if you listen to his interviews, you can hear him peppering in stuff. Right, he's mentioning Hinduism and karma, then he's talking about Japanese culture and philosophy. Then he jumps over to the Bible and starts talking about God and teachings of Jesus. It's really interesting the way he's as you said, you said, a hodgepodge like a It is that, right, And I feel like there's so many cults that kind of do that. It reminds me a lot of the Unitarian Universalist Church and my grandfather went to, where it's not it's more about the philosophies behind the meaning of certain things and then putting those meanings together into one, you know, all encompassing kind of theory of existence and life and death and all of that. Except his it feels like he's cherry picking little things in the moment to apply to like what to apply to what he's talking about in the moment.

Yeah, and if you listen to his interviews, you can hear him peppering in stuff. Right, he's mentioning Hinduism and karma, then he's talking about Japanese culture and philosophy. Then he jumps over to the Bible and starts talking about God and teachings of Jesus. It's really interesting the way he's as you said, you said, a hodgepodge like a It is that, right, And I feel like there's so many cults that kind of do that. It reminds me a lot of the Unitarian Universalist Church and my grandfather went to, where it's not it's more about the philosophies behind the meaning of certain things and then putting those meanings together into one, you know, all encompassing kind of theory of existence and life and death and all of that. Except his it feels like he's cherry picking little things in the moment to apply to like what to apply to what he's talking about in the moment.

I don't know. It's very strange, and he has He's doing something that the protagonist of cults of personalities typically do, from televangelist to MLM types, even business tycoons. The idea is that you get someone in person and you are instantly reacting to what they're saying, and you're offering propositions or leads, whether verbally or simply with intonation and physically, and then as those people are responding, you start to isolate and adjust for the reactions that you want. And some people do this much better than others. Some people are trained to do this, some people have that intuitive nec or maybe in Manson's case, again, you could argue had to develop such a skill or set of skills as a matter of survival.

I don't know. It's very strange, and he has He's doing something that the protagonist of cults of personalities typically do, from televangelist to MLM types, even business tycoons. The idea is that you get someone in person and you are instantly reacting to what they're saying, and you're offering propositions or leads, whether verbally or simply with intonation and physically, and then as those people are responding, you start to isolate and adjust for the reactions that you want. And some people do this much better than others. Some people are trained to do this, some people have that intuitive nec or maybe in Manson's case, again, you could argue had to develop such a skill or set of skills as a matter of survival.

Yeah, or weaponized it as a job, right, I mean, think about what spies have to do. It's very similar.

Yeah, or weaponized it as a job, right, I mean, think about what spies have to do. It's very similar.

And this initially this met with great success where he was part of this CMB seeing crowd, you know, and met celebrities like Brian Wilson and try to pursue a career in music, and over time is unfortunately a not uncommon thing with cults of personality. Over time, his group grew more insular, more hostile, more combative, more militant, as they were aiming increasingly towards some apocalyptic end point. And that's where you get the most widely accepted narrative, popularized by the book Helter Skelter, written by Vincent Boligosi, says, Look, here's why these murders occurred. Manson was convinced the US would be ground zero for a civilization ending race war, and Manson and his followers would hide away underground, and then after all the s hit the f he and his followers would emerge from the social wreckage and they would rain over the smoking ruins whatever was left.

And this initially this met with great success where he was part of this CMB seeing crowd, you know, and met celebrities like Brian Wilson and try to pursue a career in music, and over time is unfortunately a not uncommon thing with cults of personality. Over time, his group grew more insular, more hostile, more combative, more militant, as they were aiming increasingly towards some apocalyptic end point. And that's where you get the most widely accepted narrative, popularized by the book Helter Skelter, written by Vincent Boligosi, says, Look, here's why these murders occurred. Manson was convinced the US would be ground zero for a civilization ending race war, and Manson and his followers would hide away underground, and then after all the s hit the f he and his followers would emerge from the social wreckage and they would rain over the smoking ruins whatever was left.

Jeez, sounds like a pretty common thing nowadays. Again, if we're going in the science fiction realm, which is where mads And pulled a lot of his ideas from, it feels like feels like fallout, feels like a lot of these things we've been talking about recently. It feels like Zuckerberg's, you know, the rumors of his twenty five million dollar hideaway thing that he was building his bunker. Somebody that wants to emerge from the wreckage and control stuff.

Jeez, sounds like a pretty common thing nowadays. Again, if we're going in the science fiction realm, which is where mads And pulled a lot of his ideas from, it feels like feels like fallout, feels like a lot of these things we've been talking about recently. It feels like Zuckerberg's, you know, the rumors of his twenty five million dollar hideaway thing that he was building his bunker. Somebody that wants to emerge from the wreckage and control stuff.

It is.

It is.

I don't know, it's pretty grandiose for a guy in a group of lovable miscreants hanging out on a farm.

I don't know, it's pretty grandiose for a guy in a group of lovable miscreants hanging out on a farm.

People largely ranch rather yeah, people largely orphaned by mainstream American society. You know what I mean. You want an answer, You want to cause, you want something. Unless you're a Manson, you want something bigger than yourself. And so they ran into a problem that happens with a lot of apocalyptic cults. The disaster they foresee is taking just too long to get here. You know, Manson was at least smart enough to not predict a specific date, or maybe he was just cooking live doing some jazz. But eventual he decided the race war took too long to ignite, this again according to the popular narrative, and so he decided the family would take action to kickstart the conflict. He denies this. He denies that he or he's dead. He denied that he ordered his followers to go commit murders and try to frame the black population of California. Instead, he says he talked in hypotheticals like you know what I would do if it were me doing this?

People largely ranch rather yeah, people largely orphaned by mainstream American society. You know what I mean. You want an answer, You want to cause, you want something. Unless you're a Manson, you want something bigger than yourself. And so they ran into a problem that happens with a lot of apocalyptic cults. The disaster they foresee is taking just too long to get here. You know, Manson was at least smart enough to not predict a specific date, or maybe he was just cooking live doing some jazz. But eventual he decided the race war took too long to ignite, this again according to the popular narrative, and so he decided the family would take action to kickstart the conflict. He denies this. He denies that he or he's dead. He denied that he ordered his followers to go commit murders and try to frame the black population of California. Instead, he says he talked in hypotheticals like you know what I would do if it were me doing this?

Yep, I would leave and.

Yep, I would leave and.

I think one of that we were talking about this off air. One of the most oft repeated quotes is he says, I would leave something witchy behind.

I think one of that we were talking about this off air. One of the most oft repeated quotes is he says, I would leave something witchy behind.

Yeah, if you know, if you were going to do something like that, let the world know you were there if you're going to do it. The way he describes it to Diane Sawyer after she kind of breaks through to him for a moment, is that I needed money to get my brother out of jail. I didn't have money, but I had these people around me. But I'm not a violent person, so I would never do anything. I never do anything like that. What I said was, we need that money. We got to get that money. So basically talked around doing something violent, right, That's exactly what we're describing. Talked around getting money by doing something violent. And his followers went and did that thing.

Yeah, if you know, if you were going to do something like that, let the world know you were there if you're going to do it. The way he describes it to Diane Sawyer after she kind of breaks through to him for a moment, is that I needed money to get my brother out of jail. I didn't have money, but I had these people around me. But I'm not a violent person, so I would never do anything. I never do anything like that. What I said was, we need that money. We got to get that money. So basically talked around doing something violent, right, That's exactly what we're describing. Talked around getting money by doing something violent. And his followers went and did that thing.

And at this point in the deterioration of the organization, I think it's mission critical to note that the followers had already had their egos heavily damaged and their personalities eroded, so to them. Similar to the way the Puritans of old did not practice metaphor, they thought things in the Bible were literal, these folks were not were possibly no longer capable of clocking metaphor or hypothesis or simile, so they may have just thought he said, yeah, go do it, follow in my footsteps, and and.

And at this point in the deterioration of the organization, I think it's mission critical to note that the followers had already had their egos heavily damaged and their personalities eroded, so to them. Similar to the way the Puritans of old did not practice metaphor, they thought things in the Bible were literal, these folks were not were possibly no longer capable of clocking metaphor or hypothesis or simile, so they may have just thought he said, yeah, go do it, follow in my footsteps, and and.

They were coming down off an LSD trip, right, That was one of the big points of contention. They weren't currently on LSD or something like that when the murders took place, at least according to Manson. According to some of the people who were put on the stand during the trial, but they were on other drugs at the time. But who knows what he was saying to them while they were under the effects of LSD or some other psychotropic substance.

They were coming down off an LSD trip, right, That was one of the big points of contention. They weren't currently on LSD or something like that when the murders took place, at least according to Manson. According to some of the people who were put on the stand during the trial, but they were on other drugs at the time. But who knows what he was saying to them while they were under the effects of LSD or some other psychotropic substance.

Yeah, that's why I wanted to point out, like, the thing that we're missing when we just look at that something witchy quote is that that is a one episode in a series of escalating conversations, a culmination perhaps. So he may not have said, you know, the way to get right with the world is to follow in my footsteps and do exactly what you think I would do in that discrete conversation, but earlier, for months, he had probably been saying something very much like that, because that is how colts work any case, and we can play a clip from Manson later, one of my favorite.

Yeah, that's why I wanted to point out, like, the thing that we're missing when we just look at that something witchy quote is that that is a one episode in a series of escalating conversations, a culmination perhaps. So he may not have said, you know, the way to get right with the world is to follow in my footsteps and do exactly what you think I would do in that discrete conversation, but earlier, for months, he had probably been saying something very much like that, because that is how colts work any case, and we can play a clip from Manson later, one of my favorite.

But the whole point there have been was that just to bring an LSD into that or this concept of using LSD as part of whatever that thing is, that manipulation technique that gets people to think a certain way at certain times.

But the whole point there have been was that just to bring an LSD into that or this concept of using LSD as part of whatever that thing is, that manipulation technique that gets people to think a certain way at certain times.

Yeah, that's some good foreshadowing. We know whatever specifics of conversation and brainwashing maybe lost to history, we do know that in nineteen sixty nine, the Manson family carried out multiple murders odd Manson's orders. That's the legal opinion of the United States. That's what they concluded, of course, because this country worshiped celebrities. The most well known murder is Sharon Tate, who is the wife of director and still criminal on the run, Roman Polanski, currently located in France. Tate was killed in our Los Angeles home. Three other people were killed. This was a mass murder. There were other murders as well, and after being apprehended, the members of the Manson family and Manson himself gone trial in nineteen seventy captures the imagination. This is up there with Truman capodies in cold blood in terms of the level of public interest in what we call true crime. Today, he's found guilty. In seventy one, he sentenced to death, but fortune favors him, you could say, because the very next year, California abolishes the death penalty. So Manson goes from an appointment with execution to the much slower death penalty of life in prison.

Yeah, that's some good foreshadowing. We know whatever specifics of conversation and brainwashing maybe lost to history, we do know that in nineteen sixty nine, the Manson family carried out multiple murders odd Manson's orders. That's the legal opinion of the United States. That's what they concluded, of course, because this country worshiped celebrities. The most well known murder is Sharon Tate, who is the wife of director and still criminal on the run, Roman Polanski, currently located in France. Tate was killed in our Los Angeles home. Three other people were killed. This was a mass murder. There were other murders as well, and after being apprehended, the members of the Manson family and Manson himself gone trial in nineteen seventy captures the imagination. This is up there with Truman capodies in cold blood in terms of the level of public interest in what we call true crime. Today, he's found guilty. In seventy one, he sentenced to death, but fortune favors him, you could say, because the very next year, California abolishes the death penalty. So Manson goes from an appointment with execution to the much slower death penalty of life in prison.

Yeah, he just turns into crazy. Uncle Charles says whatever's on his mind to everybody that's around him in prison. Correspondent in perpetuity, at least until his death.

Yeah, he just turns into crazy. Uncle Charles says whatever's on his mind to everybody that's around him in prison. Correspondent in perpetuity, at least until his death.

Oh yes, yeah, he when he dies in twenty seventeen. He has been technically eligible for paroles since nineteen seventy eight, and he keeps coming up to the parole board and he keeps beat me here, he keeps saying crazy, and so they obviously are not going to let this guy out. He expresses no remorse, He denies anything he did. He dies of cardiac arrest due to complications from colon cancer. The world begins to move on, you know, the world is ending for someone every day, and people across the US and later the world are still struggling with disturbing questions. How did his cults get so far when others just you know, collapse or make an ill fated Vegan co op. Why did it seem like there was more to this story? Did he have additional associations, influence, maybe assistants that could explain how things got this far? What if the story of a race war? What if it was merely a narrative? What if it's not the whole truth? And if he did have help, who could it have been?

Oh yes, yeah, he when he dies in twenty seventeen. He has been technically eligible for paroles since nineteen seventy eight, and he keeps coming up to the parole board and he keeps beat me here, he keeps saying crazy, and so they obviously are not going to let this guy out. He expresses no remorse, He denies anything he did. He dies of cardiac arrest due to complications from colon cancer. The world begins to move on, you know, the world is ending for someone every day, and people across the US and later the world are still struggling with disturbing questions. How did his cults get so far when others just you know, collapse or make an ill fated Vegan co op. Why did it seem like there was more to this story? Did he have additional associations, influence, maybe assistants that could explain how things got this far? What if the story of a race war? What if it was merely a narrative? What if it's not the whole truth? And if he did have help, who could it have been?

Why?

Why?

Like, who could be powerful enough to keep their association with Manson hidden?

Like, who could be powerful enough to keep their association with Manson hidden?

Oh yeah? And why would they do that? Why would they want to make the hippie movement look evil and violent and cruel?

Oh yeah? And why would they do that? Why would they want to make the hippie movement look evil and violent and cruel?

What if he had some friends in the CIA? Will pause for a word from our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy, all right, CIA, don't come for us. I'm just going to put that out there. We're taught. There's a little bit of a stuff there once. You know, book Club. There's a book that came out in twenty nineteen that Matt I think captured our attention.

What if he had some friends in the CIA? Will pause for a word from our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy, all right, CIA, don't come for us. I'm just going to put that out there. We're taught. There's a little bit of a stuff there once. You know, book Club. There's a book that came out in twenty nineteen that Matt I think captured our attention.

Oh yes. It is titled Chaos, Charles Manson, the CIA and the Secret History of the Sixties. It's written by this guy named Tom O'Neill. And then it says and Dan Pipe and bring which is I don't know just an co author, I suppose. But this thing is fascinating. We both remembered when it came out in twenty nineteen, it was reviewed by everybody from Rolling Stone to the CIA, itself a pretty good read. Ben, got to be honest with you, I haven't gotten through the entirety of it because I don't have I never got a physical copy of the book. But I've read so many reviews of it and spoken with people about it. I feel pretty good talking about it. But Ben, did you read the whole thing? Yeah?

Oh yes. It is titled Chaos, Charles Manson, the CIA and the Secret History of the Sixties. It's written by this guy named Tom O'Neill. And then it says and Dan Pipe and bring which is I don't know just an co author, I suppose. But this thing is fascinating. We both remembered when it came out in twenty nineteen, it was reviewed by everybody from Rolling Stone to the CIA, itself a pretty good read. Ben, got to be honest with you, I haven't gotten through the entirety of it because I don't have I never got a physical copy of the book. But I've read so many reviews of it and spoken with people about it. I feel pretty good talking about it. But Ben, did you read the whole thing? Yeah?

It's great. I actually I reread several parts of it for this episode, because it's very dense and part of the in terms of information. The reason we have to understand. The reason it's so dense goes back to the origin story, because even this book Chaos has its own strange provenance. Flash of memory back there. It's nineteen ninety nine. There's a guy named Tom O'Neil.

It's great. I actually I reread several parts of it for this episode, because it's very dense and part of the in terms of information. The reason we have to understand. The reason it's so dense goes back to the origin story, because even this book Chaos has its own strange provenance. Flash of memory back there. It's nineteen ninety nine. There's a guy named Tom O'Neil.

That's a great year. The Matrix came out this.

That's a great year. The Matrix came out this.

Year and people were partying per Prince's instruction, Different cult, different episode. Tom O'Neill at this time is an entertainment reporter and he gets a job with a film magazine named Premiere. They give him an assignment. So they say, we're going to give you three months ninety days. We want you to write about the Tate LaBianca murders of the Manson family and the larger context of their effect on what we call Hollywood. So he misses the deadline. Oh no, because he gets very involved. He's quite conscientious and a diligent journalist, and he continues to investigate the murders after that three month assignment. After that deadline passes, his three month tour turns into twenty years in the making, hundreds of interviews, previously unknown stuff law enforcement arguably missed. He has falling out with several publishers about getting the book because he's not quite done yet. He has decades and decades of research because he is increasingly convinced something doesn't add up. In the end result of all this is the book Chaos amazing. I guess we should we should at least mention what chaos is. Right, He's not just talking about the general kerfuffle that is Hollywood.

Year and people were partying per Prince's instruction, Different cult, different episode. Tom O'Neill at this time is an entertainment reporter and he gets a job with a film magazine named Premiere. They give him an assignment. So they say, we're going to give you three months ninety days. We want you to write about the Tate LaBianca murders of the Manson family and the larger context of their effect on what we call Hollywood. So he misses the deadline. Oh no, because he gets very involved. He's quite conscientious and a diligent journalist, and he continues to investigate the murders after that three month assignment. After that deadline passes, his three month tour turns into twenty years in the making, hundreds of interviews, previously unknown stuff law enforcement arguably missed. He has falling out with several publishers about getting the book because he's not quite done yet. He has decades and decades of research because he is increasingly convinced something doesn't add up. In the end result of all this is the book Chaos amazing. I guess we should we should at least mention what chaos is. Right, He's not just talking about the general kerfuffle that is Hollywood.

Oh sure, chaos or what is this, MH. Chaos. It's a CIA program that was going to target American citizens from nineteen sixty seven to seventy four meant to ferret out possible foreign influence on public activism and protest movements. So infiltration of activist groups interesting. We know, that's something that has been of interest to both the CIA and the FBI for a long time. These outside agitators or they have a bunch of different words for them, but foreign influence, particularly on groups like the Black Panther Party for self defense, This has been in their purview and interest for a long, long, long long time.

Oh sure, chaos or what is this, MH. Chaos. It's a CIA program that was going to target American citizens from nineteen sixty seven to seventy four meant to ferret out possible foreign influence on public activism and protest movements. So infiltration of activist groups interesting. We know, that's something that has been of interest to both the CIA and the FBI for a long time. These outside agitators or they have a bunch of different words for them, but foreign influence, particularly on groups like the Black Panther Party for self defense, This has been in their purview and interest for a long, long, long long time.

Also, go and tall prone never ended.

Also, go and tall prone never ended.

Oh exactly, it's still going on right now. Yeah, and it's strong, just really quickly. I have met people like Tom O'Neil before who have started, do you like, dip their toes into one of these topics or individuals that is in themselves a rabbit hole that is so deep you cannot see the bottom of it, particularly when looking into the Zodiac Killer. The people that I met through that research who are convinced, like Ted Kaczynski is the actual Zodiac Killer and then spent ten twenty years going down that rabbit hole to try and prove this thing that they believe in their heart so fully. I wonder how much of that it feels like Tom experienced something like that when he really delved into Charles Manson in some of these connections.

Oh exactly, it's still going on right now. Yeah, and it's strong, just really quickly. I have met people like Tom O'Neil before who have started, do you like, dip their toes into one of these topics or individuals that is in themselves a rabbit hole that is so deep you cannot see the bottom of it, particularly when looking into the Zodiac Killer. The people that I met through that research who are convinced, like Ted Kaczynski is the actual Zodiac Killer and then spent ten twenty years going down that rabbit hole to try and prove this thing that they believe in their heart so fully. I wonder how much of that it feels like Tom experienced something like that when he really delved into Charles Manson in some of these connections.

All right, the concept of confirmation bias.

All right, the concept of confirmation bias.

Yeah, well it's so strong. We'll keep you going and pushing and pushing and pushing because there might be that one thing that proves all.

Yeah, well it's so strong. We'll keep you going and pushing and pushing and pushing because there might be that one thing that proves all.

Of this right. There might be a smoking gun, definitely, especially when you smell the powder and the gun oil just around the corner. So he has you know, I will say in defensive Tom O'Neil, and we haven't spoken with him, but you can hear him at length and some other podcasts and interviews. He had a piece with Joe Rogan not too many years ago, I think when the book first came out. But one thing I will say, I can't speak highly enough about Tom O'Neill is, despite the fact that some people call his exploration controversial or inconclusive, he is very honest. He's a guy, he's a man of integrity. He's very honest when he says, well, this was a dead end, but I had to look into that, and I respect, I respect when that happens. You know, maybe it's not super sexy for everyone, but it's the kind of work that you have to do, and he asked a reasonable question. Right, Yeah, he does get rabbit holed by his own admission.

Of this right. There might be a smoking gun, definitely, especially when you smell the powder and the gun oil just around the corner. So he has you know, I will say in defensive Tom O'Neil, and we haven't spoken with him, but you can hear him at length and some other podcasts and interviews. He had a piece with Joe Rogan not too many years ago, I think when the book first came out. But one thing I will say, I can't speak highly enough about Tom O'Neill is, despite the fact that some people call his exploration controversial or inconclusive, he is very honest. He's a guy, he's a man of integrity. He's very honest when he says, well, this was a dead end, but I had to look into that, and I respect, I respect when that happens. You know, maybe it's not super sexy for everyone, but it's the kind of work that you have to do, and he asked a reasonable question. Right, Yeah, he does get rabbit holed by his own admission.

Well, and I don't mean anything like bad by that. I just mean it's a it's an easy thing to get sucked into when it's this fascinating, that's all. I mean. No shade to talk.

Well, and I don't mean anything like bad by that. I just mean it's a it's an easy thing to get sucked into when it's this fascinating, that's all. I mean. No shade to talk.

Oh, I don't think we're throwing the shade. I was just going to say that he gets to a question I think is pretty reasonable, and even the CIA themselves admits this a reasonable question. His question kind of starts, why on earth would a government institution be involved with something as unclean as manson? Make it make sense, as the Internet says. To answer that, we've got to look at the historical context. The CIA, the FBI, they were definitely up the hijinks on domestic soil at this time. They were often in partnership with medical institutions, with academia, and with organized crime. Those three genres of partnership, you could argue, continue today in one form or another, and the American public had no clue, They had no idea what was happening. They probably the United States almost never learned about things like MK ultra. The only reason we know about mk Ultra is because someone dropped the ball and forgot to destroy all of the records. They probably destroyed most of the records, they just didn't get to all of them, so we don't know the full extent of what went down.

Oh, I don't think we're throwing the shade. I was just going to say that he gets to a question I think is pretty reasonable, and even the CIA themselves admits this a reasonable question. His question kind of starts, why on earth would a government institution be involved with something as unclean as manson? Make it make sense, as the Internet says. To answer that, we've got to look at the historical context. The CIA, the FBI, they were definitely up the hijinks on domestic soil at this time. They were often in partnership with medical institutions, with academia, and with organized crime. Those three genres of partnership, you could argue, continue today in one form or another, and the American public had no clue, They had no idea what was happening. They probably the United States almost never learned about things like MK ultra. The only reason we know about mk Ultra is because someone dropped the ball and forgot to destroy all of the records. They probably destroyed most of the records, they just didn't get to all of them, so we don't know the full extent of what went down.

Well, it was mk Ultra one of the things we learned about when I can't remember the activist group, but they broke in and stole a bunch of files or they like took a bunch of files.

Well, it was mk Ultra one of the things we learned about when I can't remember the activist group, but they broke in and stole a bunch of files or they like took a bunch of files.

I think that was co Intel Pro.

I think that was co Intel Pro.

That was Cointelpro, okay, but mk Ultra wasn't a part of that either. That was something that came out through some FIA.

That was Cointelpro, okay, but mk Ultra wasn't a part of that either. That was something that came out through some FIA.

Yeah, here's what happened. So mk Ultra gets discovered in the late seventies, so far after Manson's conviction or his arrest, his conviction sentencing. Because of the panic caused by Watergate, the Watergate scandal in seventy three, the CIA director who knew about m k Ultra said, destroy all of this, and they destroyed most of the CIA docs about MKULTRA. But because some of these documents, I think like twenty thousand were incorrectly stored. They were literally they were put in the wrong building and that's how people found them. They were in the Financial Records Office. And you might be saying, yet, twenty thousand documents, that sounds like a lot, you know what I mean, that's a huge amount of information. We'll think about what that tells us about the immensity and the scope of the full MK ultra entire We only.

Yeah, here's what happened. So mk Ultra gets discovered in the late seventies, so far after Manson's conviction or his arrest, his conviction sentencing. Because of the panic caused by Watergate, the Watergate scandal in seventy three, the CIA director who knew about m k Ultra said, destroy all of this, and they destroyed most of the CIA docs about MKULTRA. But because some of these documents, I think like twenty thousand were incorrectly stored. They were literally they were put in the wrong building and that's how people found them. They were in the Financial Records Office. And you might be saying, yet, twenty thousand documents, that sounds like a lot, you know what I mean, that's a huge amount of information. We'll think about what that tells us about the immensity and the scope of the full MK ultra entire We only.

Know a little. And just going back to what you're saying about cointelpro that was the Citizens Commission to Investigate the FBI that we've talked about on the show before. It literally went to an FBI field office. Bricon took a bunch of stuff and they're like, wait, what is this. They're spying on American citizens, on activists, including Martin Luther King Junior.

Know a little. And just going back to what you're saying about cointelpro that was the Citizens Commission to Investigate the FBI that we've talked about on the show before. It literally went to an FBI field office. Bricon took a bunch of stuff and they're like, wait, what is this. They're spying on American citizens, on activists, including Martin Luther King Junior.

And they didn't know. By the way, they didn't know that's what they were looking for. It was a kind of an accidental breakthrough, like a great scientific experiment. Shout out, double slit. But this leads us to our first provable point in this idea, in this conspiracy theory that Manso was working with the CIA. The first provable point is this, we know the CIA was definitely doing crazy stuff looking for so called mentory and candidate truth serums, creating false memories, manipulating people's minds to various ends through the use of hallucinogenic substances, including LSD, and these conspiratorial experiments were often conducted without anything approaching informed consent. They even set up a fake brothel, they set up a fake hippie squad. They were in all of it. It's a true conspiracy. But how does that apply to Manson? This is where O'Neill, in particular, I would argue, does some brilliant connecting of the dots. And even if you feel you are a very skeptical person, fellow conspiracy realist, this is troubling. This is I wouldn't say smoking gun, but it's enough to beggar claims of coincidence. So again, let's connect. If we connected to Manson, we have to realize, yes, CIA, FBI, they're up to heinous stuff. Manson's thirty two years old. He's just out of prison. And as some of us in the crowd unfortunately know, when you get out of prison, unless you're exonerated, you have a parole officer who is in charge of your life. They have the power to put you back in jail.

And they didn't know. By the way, they didn't know that's what they were looking for. It was a kind of an accidental breakthrough, like a great scientific experiment. Shout out, double slit. But this leads us to our first provable point in this idea, in this conspiracy theory that Manso was working with the CIA. The first provable point is this, we know the CIA was definitely doing crazy stuff looking for so called mentory and candidate truth serums, creating false memories, manipulating people's minds to various ends through the use of hallucinogenic substances, including LSD, and these conspiratorial experiments were often conducted without anything approaching informed consent. They even set up a fake brothel, they set up a fake hippie squad. They were in all of it. It's a true conspiracy. But how does that apply to Manson? This is where O'Neill, in particular, I would argue, does some brilliant connecting of the dots. And even if you feel you are a very skeptical person, fellow conspiracy realist, this is troubling. This is I wouldn't say smoking gun, but it's enough to beggar claims of coincidence. So again, let's connect. If we connected to Manson, we have to realize, yes, CIA, FBI, they're up to heinous stuff. Manson's thirty two years old. He's just out of prison. And as some of us in the crowd unfortunately know, when you get out of prison, unless you're exonerated, you have a parole officer who is in charge of your life. They have the power to put you back in jail.

Our parole officers generally nice or are they just like mean cops? Right, you better not be doing anything wrong.

Our parole officers generally nice or are they just like mean cops? Right, you better not be doing anything wrong.

Parole officers are people, you know in the spectrum.

Parole officers are people, you know in the spectrum.

I know, I'm just joking. Like most like most folks.

I know, I'm just joking. Like most like most folks.

In the public sphere, they're probably underpaid and overworked. They're probably too many cases.

In the public sphere, they're probably underpaid and overworked. They're probably too many cases.

Yeah, like just check in, are you good? Everything's cool? All right? Fine? Bye. Well, Manson did have one of these parole officers, but it's a little coincidental. Let's say maybe that his parole officer was a Berkeley doctoral student named Roger Smith, who, guess what, was involved in a federally funded program that researched LSD and drug use among the population of San Franciscans. And uh, it's a little bit, you know, it's a big coincidence, man, just because he's involved with LSD that was a popular thing at the time, research into it to figure out what's going on with it and how it's affecting people. That's just a big coincidence. Yeah, it has nothing to do with his connections to Manson. Sure.

Yeah, like just check in, are you good? Everything's cool? All right? Fine? Bye. Well, Manson did have one of these parole officers, but it's a little coincidental. Let's say maybe that his parole officer was a Berkeley doctoral student named Roger Smith, who, guess what, was involved in a federally funded program that researched LSD and drug use among the population of San Franciscans. And uh, it's a little bit, you know, it's a big coincidence, man, just because he's involved with LSD that was a popular thing at the time, research into it to figure out what's going on with it and how it's affecting people. That's just a big coincidence. Yeah, it has nothing to do with his connections to Manson. Sure.

Yeah. It's a gig economy then is now you.

Yeah. It's a gig economy then is now you.

Just got to get jobs, try to be a doctor.

Just got to get jobs, try to be a doctor.

There are a ton of people who are grad students who have to have another job to get themselves through schools. So the weird thing is, though, with the power that you may have as a parole officer, and any parole officers in the audience tonight, let us know your first hand experience. As a parole officer, Smith has a degree of what we call juice pull suction. He can provide limited immunity to people under his supervision because if they run a foul of the law, he's one of the first people they call. So he has the power should he wish to exercise a kind of get out a jail free card, and at Manson's case and the case of Manson's followers, he does. He does. I can say that's not true because he definitely did it several times. He got them out of jail.

There are a ton of people who are grad students who have to have another job to get themselves through schools. So the weird thing is, though, with the power that you may have as a parole officer, and any parole officers in the audience tonight, let us know your first hand experience. As a parole officer, Smith has a degree of what we call juice pull suction. He can provide limited immunity to people under his supervision because if they run a foul of the law, he's one of the first people they call. So he has the power should he wish to exercise a kind of get out a jail free card, and at Manson's case and the case of Manson's followers, he does. He does. I can say that's not true because he definitely did it several times. He got them out of jail.

Really interesting and it makes you wonder if he, I don't know, had access to a little LSD that was, you know, being used for all the experiments in research, which would be an interesting relationship outside of the parole officer parole thing that would be going on there normally.

Really interesting and it makes you wonder if he, I don't know, had access to a little LSD that was, you know, being used for all the experiments in research, which would be an interesting relationship outside of the parole officer parole thing that would be going on there normally.

Yeah, the phrase we would use is beyond the scope, depending on what the scope is right and what the true nature of the relationship is so Smith could have at multiple points, pretty much any point after the first violation, he could have sent Manson back to prison right for quite some time. He never did. And he also never bothered to report you know, evidence to drug use or petty crime kind of stuff, never reported it up the chain. And this happened pretty frequently. At least O'Neill has made a really s the case that it does. So Manson remained free as a drug addled bird, and he was doing he was doing tons of substances, you know.

Yeah, the phrase we would use is beyond the scope, depending on what the scope is right and what the true nature of the relationship is so Smith could have at multiple points, pretty much any point after the first violation, he could have sent Manson back to prison right for quite some time. He never did. And he also never bothered to report you know, evidence to drug use or petty crime kind of stuff, never reported it up the chain. And this happened pretty frequently. At least O'Neill has made a really s the case that it does. So Manson remained free as a drug addled bird, and he was doing he was doing tons of substances, you know.

Well, you know, he says he only did the weed. He only smoked weed and LSD and stuff that made his mind expand he never did the uppers and the downers and all that stuff, at least that's what he says.

Well, you know, he says he only did the weed. He only smoked weed and LSD and stuff that made his mind expand he never did the uppers and the downers and all that stuff, at least that's what he says.

He never. He also had a very interesting habit of forcing his followers to do drugs that he himself did not do, which is another indication of cult activity or MK ultra or MK ultra. Yeah, because oh god, I wish we could see the rest of the scope of mktra.

He never. He also had a very interesting habit of forcing his followers to do drugs that he himself did not do, which is another indication of cult activity or MK ultra or MK ultra. Yeah, because oh god, I wish we could see the rest of the scope of mktra.

Oh, somebody out there, you know, contact us please, Yeah.

Oh, somebody out there, you know, contact us please, Yeah.

And Roger, so these are Roger Smith is working at the Hate Ashbury Free Medical Clinic. Okay, he is collaborating with a guy who's not related to him named David's. David Smith is the founder of the clinic. He is a medical doctor who's made a name for himself with his expertise in pharmacology. So they get money from Uncle Sam. The CIA. The CIA funds the hate Ashbury Free Medical Clinics saw operations for research into recreational drug use amidst their patients. They're saying, you already have patients who may or may not be kind of on the fringes of society. We're going to pay you to understand more about them.

And Roger, so these are Roger Smith is working at the Hate Ashbury Free Medical Clinic. Okay, he is collaborating with a guy who's not related to him named David's. David Smith is the founder of the clinic. He is a medical doctor who's made a name for himself with his expertise in pharmacology. So they get money from Uncle Sam. The CIA. The CIA funds the hate Ashbury Free Medical Clinics saw operations for research into recreational drug use amidst their patients. They're saying, you already have patients who may or may not be kind of on the fringes of society. We're going to pay you to understand more about them.

Oh my gosh, dude, sinister. It's not sinister. But if you think of the motivation behind it, why does the CIA want to know about that? Why does the CIA want to know about that citizens within the United States that are taking recreational drugs? I don't it doesn't sit right CIA. Sorry, I'm sorry, I'm doing weird voice today.

Oh my gosh, dude, sinister. It's not sinister. But if you think of the motivation behind it, why does the CIA want to know about that? Why does the CIA want to know about that citizens within the United States that are taking recreational drugs? I don't it doesn't sit right CIA. Sorry, I'm sorry, I'm doing weird voice today.

I guess it's gathering intelligence technically, but.

I guess it's gathering intelligence technically, but.

On American citizens inside the United States.

On American citizens inside the United States.

Right now, you're perview boys, But the what they begin to notice everybody involved in this CIA funded stuff, and then in just ancillary research happening at the same place. They say, Wow, A lot of the folks who keep showing up, you know, for treatment for like venereal disease or something to help with addiction, et cetera, et cetera. A lot of them belonged to this Manson family or this family led by Charles Manson.

Right now, you're perview boys, But the what they begin to notice everybody involved in this CIA funded stuff, and then in just ancillary research happening at the same place. They say, Wow, A lot of the folks who keep showing up, you know, for treatment for like venereal disease or something to help with addiction, et cetera, et cetera. A lot of them belonged to this Manson family or this family led by Charles Manson.

They at least know Charles real well.

They at least know Charles real well.

Yeah, or at least they know Charlie old chuckles. And then it it's even deeper. I didn't know this until read O'Neill's book, but there was an assistant researcher at the place named Alan Rose. And Alan Rose visited the Manson families compound when they when Manson relocated to la And while he was there, Alan Rose participated in, you know, the social rituals of the family. He used drugs, he got into some weird sexual rituals.

Yeah, or at least they know Charlie old chuckles. And then it it's even deeper. I didn't know this until read O'Neill's book, but there was an assistant researcher at the place named Alan Rose. And Alan Rose visited the Manson families compound when they when Manson relocated to la And while he was there, Alan Rose participated in, you know, the social rituals of the family. He used drugs, he got into some weird sexual rituals.

As you do.

As you do.

Yeah, right, And so a lot of journalists call this diplomatically or euphemistically, four months of immersive research. He's out there just going hand for four months. He goes back to San Francisco and then.

Yeah, right, And so a lot of journalists call this diplomatically or euphemistically, four months of immersive research. He's out there just going hand for four months. He goes back to San Francisco and then.

He wait, wait, or could that be like deep undercover recon like really finding out what's going on there. Yeah, and how could we use this group potentially?

He wait, wait, or could that be like deep undercover recon like really finding out what's going on there. Yeah, and how could we use this group potentially?

And then how why does it take four months to figure that out?

And then how why does it take four months to figure that out?

Because it was it was fun.

Because it was it was fun.

That's it's not like that hard as nails boss of this.

That's it's not like that hard as nails boss of this.

Yeah, you're the four officer four.

Yeah, you're the four officer four.

Months in seventy. In nineteen seventy, after his his time, I'm in the field, this guy, Alan Rose and David Smith write the first scholarly paper about the Manson family, the Group Marriage Commune, a case study.

Months in seventy. In nineteen seventy, after his his time, I'm in the field, this guy, Alan Rose and David Smith write the first scholarly paper about the Manson family, the Group Marriage Commune, a case study.

Wait, the group marriage? Were they all married to Charlie?

Wait, the group marriage? Were they all married to Charlie?

They were fluid in their sexual partnerships?

They were fluid in their sexual partnerships?

Okay?

Okay?

And then Manson also had a tremendously vile habit, according to reports, where he would you know, like going back to spawn ranch and everything, like he would buy people's approval or favors dudes by getting female members of his family to sleep with them.

And then Manson also had a tremendously vile habit, according to reports, where he would you know, like going back to spawn ranch and everything, like he would buy people's approval or favors dudes by getting female members of his family to sleep with them.

I remember hearing about that, but I'd never I guess saw it written out. I don't read books, sorry. But he also made people sit around and just listen to him play an acoustic guitar for way too long.

I remember hearing about that, but I'd never I guess saw it written out. I don't read books, sorry. But he also made people sit around and just listen to him play an acoustic guitar for way too long.

I know, I'm just paying. I will leave the house party. I mean, unless it's like vampire rules, unless invited, don't do that, you know what I mean, Because that's not for the people listening, that's for you.

I know, I'm just paying. I will leave the house party. I mean, unless it's like vampire rules, unless invited, don't do that, you know what I mean, Because that's not for the people listening, that's for you.

Well, I've got a little surprised for you. At the conclusion of this episode, bend, is that true? Yes?

Well, I've got a little surprised for you. At the conclusion of this episode, bend, is that true? Yes?

I got it. This was and we also know this was not the only thing of its sort in town right like this. Yes, there were a lot of communesic cults, but also there were other people doing you know, not super above board research. There's a guy named Lewis West. His middle name was like Jollin or something, so people called him Jolly and and he was one of the point people, one of the prime connectors for this idea of studying LSD in drug use amidst what they called hippies. He was also a CIA psychologist with experience in deprogramming brainwashing victims, and in later conversations our author here, the journalist O'Neill, will say that West had a noted expertise in encouraging insanity in people through the use of substances without their knowledge.

I got it. This was and we also know this was not the only thing of its sort in town right like this. Yes, there were a lot of communesic cults, but also there were other people doing you know, not super above board research. There's a guy named Lewis West. His middle name was like Jollin or something, so people called him Jolly and and he was one of the point people, one of the prime connectors for this idea of studying LSD in drug use amidst what they called hippies. He was also a CIA psychologist with experience in deprogramming brainwashing victims, and in later conversations our author here, the journalist O'Neill, will say that West had a noted expertise in encouraging insanity in people through the use of substances without their knowledge.

Really well to what end? Because he was wasn't he also good at de deprogramming people from things? I guess Wait, was he programming people and then deprogramming them? I don't know.

Really well to what end? Because he was wasn't he also good at de deprogramming people from things? I guess Wait, was he programming people and then deprogramming them? I don't know.

It's like if you already have a person around. It depends on what you need for the experiment. Most I mean, the Department of Defense is weirdly enough graded offense.

It's like if you already have a person around. It depends on what you need for the experiment. Most I mean, the Department of Defense is weirdly enough graded offense.

Yeah, that's true, you just need test subjects.

Yeah, that's true, you just need test subjects.

Whoa. They did that by creating a fake hippie crash path stop. Yeah, clinic, it's true.

Whoa. They did that by creating a fake hippie crash path stop. Yeah, clinic, it's true.

No, it's true, the one we just talked about, Like, so wait, this is all connected.

No, it's true, the one we just talked about, Like, so wait, this is all connected.

Yeah, what the fake pad is like this dilapidated Victorian building. It's pretty close to the hate Ashbury Free Medical Clinic. And the idea is we're just going to study these hippies in the wild. We'll see what leads to addiction or homelessness, et cetera. West also works for Sidney Gottlieb, head of the MK Ultra programs. At some point, Yeah.

Yeah, what the fake pad is like this dilapidated Victorian building. It's pretty close to the hate Ashbury Free Medical Clinic. And the idea is we're just going to study these hippies in the wild. We'll see what leads to addiction or homelessness, et cetera. West also works for Sidney Gottlieb, head of the MK Ultra programs. At some point, Yeah.

Gee, I wonder why Tom was so into the story. It feels like everything is already connecting, at least in my mind.

Gee, I wonder why Tom was so into the story. It feels like everything is already connecting, at least in my mind.

Yeah, you can tell. And if he's a kick ass journalist, so he has to and he has to turn every stone right if it could lead to something, And you know, we know this wasn't a unique situation. Sadly, because I think it was nineteen seventy six. New York Times has their own investigation and they find the CIA has collaborated with all sorts of places, National Institute for Mental Health, Foundations, Fund for Research and Psychiatry, incorporated, all sorts of basically things they were using as fronts or shell companies, such that in several cases, many of the researchers who were receiving this funding might not know that it was coming from the CIA. So now everybody involved in MK ultra was knowingly malevolent.

Yeah, you can tell. And if he's a kick ass journalist, so he has to and he has to turn every stone right if it could lead to something, And you know, we know this wasn't a unique situation. Sadly, because I think it was nineteen seventy six. New York Times has their own investigation and they find the CIA has collaborated with all sorts of places, National Institute for Mental Health, Foundations, Fund for Research and Psychiatry, incorporated, all sorts of basically things they were using as fronts or shell companies, such that in several cases, many of the researchers who were receiving this funding might not know that it was coming from the CIA. So now everybody involved in MK ultra was knowingly malevolent.

I think, yeah, and there was real research to be done. This is a This is an incredible substance that seems to have tremendous effects on the human I don't know, state of mind. So you can understand why there was such interest here. You can also see why the CIA had interest. We've been joking a lot about it, but we're in the midst of the Cold War here, the CIA, the FBI, all of the American government is both terrified and super pissed at the concept of communism up terrified of and angry at it. But you know, it's there's a reason for all of it to be happening, but for it to culminate with freaking Charles Manson somehow super closely tied to it is just weird.

I think, yeah, and there was real research to be done. This is a This is an incredible substance that seems to have tremendous effects on the human I don't know, state of mind. So you can understand why there was such interest here. You can also see why the CIA had interest. We've been joking a lot about it, but we're in the midst of the Cold War here, the CIA, the FBI, all of the American government is both terrified and super pissed at the concept of communism up terrified of and angry at it. But you know, it's there's a reason for all of it to be happening, but for it to culminate with freaking Charles Manson somehow super closely tied to it is just weird.

Yeah, and we still haven't we're not we're not out there yet. But I really appreciate the point you're raising about that context and about the the validity the legitimacy of those concerns, because the USSR was actively attempting to infiltrate and influence movements and the US government entire and they had they had a degree of success in doing so, So you have to cut it off at the button. You might say, hey, I am you know, I'm a five y five John Q Blue Jeans employee. I would never do hippie drugs like LSD. But if the Russians figure out a use for it and we are running behind in the game, this could change the course of the globe. So they I wouldn't even say it was a rationalization at first. It was a very profound realization. They had to try it.

Yeah, and we still haven't we're not we're not out there yet. But I really appreciate the point you're raising about that context and about the the validity the legitimacy of those concerns, because the USSR was actively attempting to infiltrate and influence movements and the US government entire and they had they had a degree of success in doing so, So you have to cut it off at the button. You might say, hey, I am you know, I'm a five y five John Q Blue Jeans employee. I would never do hippie drugs like LSD. But if the Russians figure out a use for it and we are running behind in the game, this could change the course of the globe. So they I wouldn't even say it was a rationalization at first. It was a very profound realization. They had to try it.

Yeah, Well, they're probably even worried that the Americans might be taking the bait and just using it too much recreationally, right as and it's being supplied somehow by someone who's also working for them.

Yeah, Well, they're probably even worried that the Americans might be taking the bait and just using it too much recreationally, right as and it's being supplied somehow by someone who's also working for them.

Yeah, and then we got to get into Olsley, the famous mad scientist of LSD, like mm hmm what his connections were. I don't know if you remember, but we got some fascinating correspondence a few years back about this.

Yeah, and then we got to get into Olsley, the famous mad scientist of LSD, like mm hmm what his connections were. I don't know if you remember, but we got some fascinating correspondence a few years back about this.

Yeah, my gosh.

Yeah, my gosh.

And this all leads us to the second point we can definitely prove, which that Manson was around the same time these programs were active. He was in the same place. He was associated with people who are being studied in the research right his followers. He was associated with people who, at the very least were associated with people who are active in these programs as administrators, as researchers. But being in the same area of an event does not prove you were involved in that event. That's like if we're walking through New York City on the night the Yankees win the World Series. It doesn't mean we're on the team. We were just also there.

And this all leads us to the second point we can definitely prove, which that Manson was around the same time these programs were active. He was in the same place. He was associated with people who are being studied in the research right his followers. He was associated with people who, at the very least were associated with people who are active in these programs as administrators, as researchers. But being in the same area of an event does not prove you were involved in that event. That's like if we're walking through New York City on the night the Yankees win the World Series. It doesn't mean we're on the team. We were just also there.

Ah. I guess you're right.

Ah. I guess you're right.

But it still needs more scrutiny, and maybe that's our ad break.

But it still needs more scrutiny, and maybe that's our ad break.

I think, so more scrutiny, more ads will be right back.

I think, so more scrutiny, more ads will be right back.