Stuff They Don't Want You To KnowInterview: Up and Vanished Weekly, with Maggie Freleng
Alien abductions. Unexplained disappearances. Unsolved murders. In tonight's interview, the guys join the legendary, award-winning journalist Maggie Freleng to learn more about her newest podcast, Up and Vanished Weekly.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A production of Iheartrading.
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my name is name. Our colleague Ben is on an adventure. But you are you. You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. We're also joined by our super producer Andrew. We're recalling him now, Frank Train, Try Force Howard, and we are bringing new energy to this episode because we are joined by someone very, very special, someone we've been wanting to talk to for quite a while, ever since we had a conversation with Jason Flamm on this show. You might recognize her when when you hear it for the first time from her work as host and producer of Wrongful Conviction alongside Jason. You might know her voice from the Pulitzer Prize winning podcast Suave that we just saw Maria from Suave at on AirFest very recently. You might also know her from her work as an intern at the US Fish and Wildlife Service.
That's mainly where my background is.
That's a deep cut.
I know, hey, hey, hold on, hold on, you may, but primarily you might know her from Up and Vanished Weekly, the new true crime show that's a spin off of Up and Vanished from Tenderfoot TV.
Welcome, Maggie Freeling.
Oh man, that was a lot to like keep keep myself from yelling during But the deep cut fish and wildlife is wild.
It's important, well, especially in these are trying times where that kind of stuff's getting wet, like eliminated entirely potentially. Oof.
Yeah, that's why you're here, Maggie. Let's talk f so and or wildlife.
Start with wildlife favorite animal?
Go, Oh my gosh, yeah, the fish and wildlife. I did. I did. I wanted to go into conservation or like conservation reporting something like that for a really long time. And that's a really dark place to be in right now. So I'm glad I didn't.
Yeah, I wasn't choking though. That wasn't just a clever segue. What is your favorite animal?
What is my favorite animal? Oh my gosh, I mean any kind of like cat.
Okay, there we go, any fuel adjacent that's cool.
All we're all big cat fans.
We're just hanging out with Astrid here, that's Andrew's Katy Cat. We've got a bunch of them running around. Look, we're here to talk about up in Vanish Weekly because this brand new show hits the listener. That's us, that's me in particular, with a new either missing person's case, a suspected homicide case, a case of historical importance when it comes to that kind of thing, there are so many to chew from when we were preparing to talk to you today, Maggie abduction maybe in there. We've got a short list of things we're going to talk about, but just for everybody who's listening, before we fully get into the show, we're also going to be talking about a specific hair industry out of India that I learned about when talking with Maggie a little while ago. And that is a deep rabbit hole. That is probably a whole other episode that we might have to bring you back on for.
Yes, but there's so many things we're going to talk about today.
We'll be right back after word from our sponsor with Maggie Freeling.
And we have returned with Maggie and we're gonna jump right in to a pretty important case that I think is a really good kind of conduit between up and vanished weekly and stuff they don't want you to know, which is the mysterious disappearance of Travis Walton in nineteen seventy five. Travis vanished for five days in the fall of that year and returned with some very interesting and conspiracy adjacent claims. Maggie, what do you say we jump right into that story and what these claims were? What you think happened?
Yeah, So, I guess have you guys covered this case?
I forgot We have talked about Travis Walton when it comes to abduction stories, right, so like kind of a bit of an overview and we're talking years ago.
Not a deep talk though, for sure.
No, not at all. We have spoken with pain about high Strange and this is one little thing that we mentioned in that interview, but we've never actually looked at the facts.
Wow. Okay, so your listeners are going to love this because this is one of those abduction cases that has a lot of credibility to it because is it five or six other people he was with actually saw him hi allegedly be abducted. They saw it. This is what they also say happened. And I find it so interesting because these guys, Okay, so they're all friends, they're loggers, they're in the woods together, and they literally see Travis be abducted. So he goes missing and these guys come back without their friend and they're instantly murder suspects. They think they the police think they did something with him. When they're trying to report him missing, they take polygraph tests. I mean, these guys are suspects. They're about to go to jail and be arrested for doing something to their friend. And then he shows up five days later, I think was it five days let me say, and yeah, five days later and he's like, no, no, I was abducted. And they're all like, see, see, we told you. And even you know, watching documentaries and listening back to the police and people who gave the polygraphs, they're like, it is very difficult and I know this too, for six people to tell the same story time and time again. And that's what happens here. I mean, you know, Travis tells what happened once he was on the ship, and we could talk about that, but in terms of credibility, I mean, that's it. You have six people telling the same story. These guys were gonna go to jail. And they're not saying like this is a joke or whatever.
They're like, no, seriously, if you're kinda come up with a cover story for murdering your friend, there are better ones. Then we saw him get pulled up by a tractor beam into the sky, or well, can you maybe tell us a little bit about what they reported seeing, like, you know, more than beyond just our friend was abducted. There has to be some detail around that.
Right, Yeah.
So they're all in the woods, like we said, they're loggers nineteen seventy five, and they all of a sudden, see, they hear a noise and they see in a clearing like a hovering craft. So Travis decides to walk towards it and it kind of investigate what's happening, and really, the next thing they know, they see him fly backwards like he's you know, struck by a beam of light, flies backwards and they run. When they return, he's gone.
Like you do not.
Maybe not walking towards as well.
Yeah, exactly, And okay, so they're all aligned on this, and they.
Are one hundred person aligned. I mean they all see the same thing, or say they see the same thing.
Let's talk about how rare that is when it comes to the cases you've looked at, not only for Up and Vanish Weekly, but for some of the wrongful conviction specific cases that you've looked at. Where are where there are that number of individuals who are credible witnesses, who are eyes on. They're not just people who are around, you know, saw a little part of something that happened. They all saw the same thing and they're reporting this. I'm thinking about was listening to other episodes like Jennifer Kesse's disappearance, which is one of the first episodes you guys cover, where one of the best pieces of evidence in that case that you've got is a piece of actual video tape, but you can't actually make the person out. And there's been no nothing has happened with that case because you can't make the person out. But in this case, you've got folks saying something, well, what do you do?
Can you go?
I don't know what do you do with a UFO? Like, what is there anything? I just don't get it.
Well that's so okay. So there's two things there. So you asked about people telling the same story, So you know, when you tell a lie, it is hard to remember that lie because it is not a memory that you have. So then the lie changes, right, That's when people's stories change. They can't remember what they said, so they start changing. These guys, all of them are telling the same story separation time and time, separately and separate polygraphs. They all passed the polygraphs. You know, we all know, you guys talk about it. Polygraphs can't be admitted in court. They're not particularly fallible. But six guys telling the same story, all passing a polygraph can indicate something, you know. So that is something that is really interesting to me about this and Travis telling the same detailed story. You can listen to it on High Strange Pain talks to Travis Walton and he has vivid memories of being inside a spaceship.
Oh god, well.
Off, Mike. Before we started rolling, I mentioned that we had to talk about this one if for only the opportunity to discuss the nineteen eighties sci fi horror classic Fire in the Sky, which I never saw when I was younger, and only recently there's been this clip making the rounds of this scene where do is being probed in the face with these weird pneumatic tubes that are shooting goo up his nose and these really horrifying aliens hovering over and I swear to god, it's the scariest thing I've ever seen. It's like total nightmare fuel. Is there any like when we say that that film is based on this occurrence, did he report being invaded in this way? Bodily?
Yeah? So he's missing for five days, right, and he does. He explains things that happen on the ship, but he says it only feels maybe like a couple hours. He reappears about twenty miles away from where he went missing. When he comes back to Earth and he notices he's gone for five days, he has no idea. There's like a time lapse. When he sees his brother, His brothers like, feel your face, and he's got five days growth of beard. So what happens in the ship somehow to him, maybe he was unconscious for some of it. It feels a brief period of time for how long he was missing. But yes, so this is interesting. I'm sure you guys know some of the races of aliens. But he reportedly first sees like tall grays. It seems like one of the grays. I believe it was tall grays, and when he freaks out by them, he freaks out. He somehow gets off the what's it called, like the operating table or whatever. Another creature comes in that looks more humanoid. I forget what the names of those species are that he explained, but they kind of are like blonde and look kind of like Greek gods or something. But that's the other species, he explained, seeing which seems like they kind of presented this more human looking person to him to get him to calm down. But like I said, Payne, talk to him. He got all these crazy details. He relives it. I mean listening to him talk. Yeah, whatever happened to him, he believes happened to him.
Yep.
You can hear him get emotional, and especially about how telling.
This story has affected him.
Right, he could have said when he got back that, oh well, I made up that story and his life could have probably been better because his like that's been his The rest of his life has been that. Right, It's almost like being trapped in some sort of hell. And if he was just making up the story, then you know, he is said out loud I wish.
I wasn't living his entire identity. Is that alien guy that was abducted like that? That sucks? Like he has no he is not Travis Walton. He's not really a person anymore? Is this objectified story? And I think that's one of the things that's so interesting in these credible abductions is none of these people want that attention. Why would you want this kind of attention? It becomes harassment, It ruins your life, Like, what is it Betty and Barney White? Is that a name?
Hill?
Hill? They were an interracial couple back in segregation times fifties, sixties. They did not want that attention at all.
Yeah, they had such a weird situation where they were recounting things well, going under some form of hypnosis, which was really interesting. And some of the regression techniques that we've talked about on the show before that you know, are they're pretty questionable. But at the same time, it's like, who knows, you know, you have to allow yourself to suspend disbelief long enough to actually hear someone out right or explore topics we think. But yeah, Betty and Barney Hill, that's another situation where it just it's those two actually, Travis Walton, Betty and Barney Hill are probably the two that I can think of the top of my head that are the most credible abduction stories. There's one there's oh man, I can't remember her name. There's somebody who was featured on a Netflix document.
Or abducted in Manhattan or something.
Yeah, that was fascinating, fascinating, but also you know, there's conflicting stories with that one about who's telling the truth, who's lying, and what are their motivations and all that stuff.
So that one is kind of related to this in the sense that there was like at least two dozen witnesses right that see this woman levitate out her window and be abducted. But then as the documentary goes on, Sorry spoiler, you could skip ahead, but it was like group think what is it called, Like they were influenced to kind of remember this was what they were seeing and their witness statements might not have been particularly credible, I know, but we don't see that in this Travis Walton case, right, Like these guys are all like, no, no, no, this is what we saw.
Adams just no reason to double down like that for that long. It's really really fascinating. I just want to add to that. And the Sky came out in nineteen ninety three, not the eighties, and Travis Waltson is like an extra. He plays citizen number three in Fire in the Sky. And I don't know that it's a particularly great movie, but the alien surgery scene is the stuff of nightmares. So I highly recommended the very least looking that one up. It's definitely one of the most horrific alien abduction type scenes I've ever seen.
It reminds me of the movie Jacob's.
Ladder a lot like it's very early nineties absolute terror.
That was actually you mentioned. I just want to bring up one more thing that when he resurfaced five days later, he had lost a ton of weight, was very very skinny. Clearly it seemed like he had not eaten for days. But when they did like blood work and checked on him, his like levels were okay. Like it seemed like wherever he was and whoever had him knew how to keep him alive and knew how to keep him stable. Which was one of those like weird little like how if he did just disappear on his own, how did he lose this much weight? To the point of starving but still be totally fine internally.
Yeah, it is really splating.
Yeah, supplements, because well, you know, if you put yourself in the mind of an investigator, like from a sheriff's department or something, in the first days that this is happening, you may think, oh, this guy looks like someone who was lost in the woods for five days. But then you get those tests done, like, oh, well, actually no, he's got plenty of calcium.
How why very weird.
It's a really great example. Does up in Vanish Weekly cover stories like this that are a little more out there.
Sometimes we love to I love to especially, So there's a couple others we're going to talk about today. One of them is Richard Cox. He is a West Point cadet who vanished into thin air, and one of the leading theories is he went into the CIA, which I know is something you guys love talking about.
Oh wow, so a case based on the possibility that someone cut all contacts and went somewhere else to work for the outfit.
Yeah, I'm really I'm actually very excited to hear y'all's take on this one, because you probably know more about going into the CIA than I do.
Oh yeah, we've heard many a tale where somebody has, you know, pretended to start a new job or something, but they're actually going to work for the CIA. But most of the instances we've seen people don't just cut all contacts and then start working for the outfit somewhere.
That's a really good point, Matt. And as you could imagine, folks, we actually have the story that we're going to get into where more or less just that happens. So let's take a quick word from our sponsor and we back with more from Maggie.
And we've returned, let's jump into the story of Richard Cox. Maggie, why don't you set us up with some of the details.
Yeah, sure so. Richard Colvin Dick Cox enlisted in the army.
Sure, sorry, please continue.
I'm a child, a young man who enlisted in the Army in nineteen forty six. So this is a historic case. We are going way back to Cold War era CIA. He enlisted nineteen forty eight in the West Point Military Academy that is in New York. And he's a pretty normal guy. He's writing home, he has a fiance and life is good for him. So he receives a phone call January seventh, nineteen fifty, to his dorm, and virtually after that call, he's really never seen again. You know, we'll go into detail, but that's kind of what happens. He vanishes off the face of the earth.
It's kind of a big deal to go to West Point. I mean, we talk about it on the show a lot, and certainly something that comes up in like the a few Good Men type films of cinema. There is a huge amount of prestige that goes into enlisting in West Point Military Academy.
Yeah.
For me, it feels like the equivalent of Ivy League. Yeah, an Ivy League school, but for the military.
I think the Richard Cox is the only west Point cadet to ever vanish. Like, I think that was one of the things that maybe made his case like really crazy.
Wow.
So January seventh, nineteen fifty, he gets a phone call at his dorm and his roommate takes the call and it's from a man named George, and he says, tell him George called, He'll know who I am. We knew each other in Germany. I'm here for a little while, and tell him I'd like to get a bite to eat. So Richard was deployed to Germany for a small amount of time doing low level intelligence work. So this man is saying they work together over there, but Richard tells his roommate he has no idea. He doesn't know what George. He doesn't know who the George is except his roommate then says later on, he goes to meet a guy named George. So things are really weird right now with this George guy.
Well, okay, so it sounds really secretive. And if there is intelligence work that was done in Germany and it's somebody actually reaching out with a fake name, you know, to be like we need to be in contact again, I can see this exact set of circumstances taking place right.
Where he says he doesn't know this guy even though yeah, exactly.
Yeah, So just at the beginning of January nineteen fifty, when George comes back to West Point, if he's been contacted by somebody in that world and starting some kind of discussions, I can see him feeling off and maybe even putting feelers out there, because wasn't he he He's saying like he's dissatisfied with just life in general.
Right now.
Yeah, he comes back from Breake just a little dissatisfied, like he's just not enamored with his life at West Point anymore.
Yeah, when he's got a fiance out there waiting for him, he's got to be finished up.
So you know, maybe to.
The outside observer there in Richard's life, things are going great. So it is a little it would seem.
My roommate is the one who starts noticing things are really off because he allegedly goes out with this guy George comes back and is wasted, like he passes out at his desk. His roommate's never seen this. He actually took a photo of it that his roommate thought it was so odd. He takes a photo of Richard wasted at his desk. A short time later, Richard shoots up from his desk like awake, stumbles into the stairwell, and begins screaming incoherently the name Alice, Alice.
Wait, so we got a George. Now he got an Alice?
We got an Alice?
Sounds like a what nineteen sixties sitcom or something like, I'm like a married couple.
This is wild and that is or isn't the name of his fiance.
It is not the name of his fiance.
I did touch that, and the brief that you sent very unusual. This is a new character that has entered the chat.
Oh dear.
So his roommate's noticing that this guy George comes into the picture and Richard is just acting very very bizarrely. So a week later, Richard signs out of the dorm and he's last seen by his roommate. He's supposedly heading to dinner at an upscale hotel and he's going to meet George that night. He misses curfew and is never seen again. Whoa oh weak time between George showing up and him going missing?
Uh okay, can I I'm gonna put something out here.
Maybe it's crazy, but I'm just putting it out here. Yeah.
Project MK Ultra officially has its beginnings in the year nineteen fifty, like right around there, just before you know, it's kind of ramping up, I believe officially, if he's acting that weird calling out for Alice, I don't know. I'm just putting it out there.
Maybe in Alaskaalice, you know, I mean, it sounds like some LSD's involved.
To me, that's all I'm saying.
So I think there's something to that. Right, we're talking Cold War era, this kind of like unknown body from Germany, like they worked intelligence together. I think that it is a very plausible theory that maybe George was a recruiter for some three letter agency doing things overseas during the Cold War.
Yeah, oh yeah, for sure. We've talked about paper clip. Right, That's one of the major projects that we've focused on on this show before, which is the post World War two bringing of scientists over and spies and all kinds of people that the US specifically and other countries because they did it too, thought that would be useful to the United States military or scientific you know, establishment. In some way, it does make me wonder because we'll never know, nobody will ever know what work was being done, right, right, and intelligence work could beat anything from gathering information on somebody or a place or a program to doing some other weird stuff.
So some things when they searched his room that they found, which maybe if he went into the CIA or went to do something top secret, maybe he would have brought with him. They found eighty seven dollars, which is about thirteen hundred dollars to day, So he was leaving money, he left some person, no belongings, unmailed letters, civilian clothes, a watch. Those things could also point to foul play.
Sure, yeah, I can see that.
Would you leave those things if you were like packing up to go to Germany to join and eat? Like I really don't know, I'm asking you.
Whenever their disappearance is like that and someone leaves behind like you know, sizeable amount of money or like personal items or you know, identification or things like that, it's usually the first thing that is thought is that there's foul play, that someone caught unaware and they left their important stuff behind.
Well, let's give it out. What what is the plausible reason that any of us right now, if we were gonna just take off from where we are, right where we live, why would we leave cash money there? Because that's something you can use no matter where you're going, what you're doing, right, unless you're going to a different country where you can use the currency.
Yeah, but she could exchange. It's not true amount of money.
Or if you want to throw people off to think you were abducted and killed when you actually snuck into a government agency.
We have we have covered too much true crime?
I think amongst us on this episode, I watch too many episodes of things.
Yeah.
Okay, so here's another possible lead. So a few years after he disappears March nineteen fifty two, a buddy of his from the army says that he bumped into Richard in DC in a bus station. They talked, had a conversation, and he believes, you know, this was Richard because when he bumped into him two years after he went missing, he didn't know Richard was missing. It's the fifties. We didn't have Facebook and Instagram to announce when her friends are missing. He didn't report seeing Richard this day until nineteen fifty four, two years after he saw him, four years after he went missing.
Okay, but okay, let's say that really happened. Does that mean he just went underground because his fiance never saw him again, right, his family never saw him again. He's just working for some Yeah, okay, so if he is working for a newly formed intelligence agency, he is doing that kind of stuff and he really does just cut ties. How in the heck is he going to be anywhere in the US walking around or do we think that's a credible sighting.
I think that is a credible sighting, and at least when I spoke to Laura about this case, Laura Norton, who does the Fall Line and she's investigated this case, she believes that's a credible sighting. There is another sighting in May of nineteen sixty, so ten years after he allegedly vanishes, he is seen in Melbourne, Florida. So follow me here. An FBI agent is on an undercover assignment and is drinking with the contact. The contact is with a man named R. C. Mansfield. Later, the man says this is a fake name. His real name is Richard Cox. Okay, so he intimates he's considered dead by the army and his mother. An FBI stakeout is planned nine days later, but the subject never shows. So this is an incident that happens with an FBI agent. So an FBI guy reports this, He meets this man RC. Mansfield's are going to do a sting. It never happens. He admits he's Richard Cox. Never heard from again? What so r C. Mansfield? Yeah, Richard Cox.
R C.
And Mansfield is actually where Richard Cox was born. So this sounds like a good pseudonym if this was him.
Yeah, okay, wait, so is the good guy?
Let's just.
Good as in I think we found him.
Yeah, I think this.
Yeah, was the FBI stakeout to find.
Unrelated related Okay, yeah, so this is like an unrelated FBI thing. This FBI source is drinking with another source who is with Richard Cox.
Okay, ah, that is awfully strange. This whole thing feels so weird I am internally now, I am leaning towards somebody that an agency wanted just to have off the books and a person who was ready and willing.
To do that.
So that's what I'm wondering from you guys, since you guys cover a lot of this three letter agency top secret things. Would you need to disappear somebody like this in order to join the CIA?
Not to join, right, doesn't seem that way. It seems like you would do that if someone were, you know, an enemy of some stripe or someone that had compromised information or someone that you needed to probe, not in like the like our first story, the UAP kind of way, like that's when you disappear people is to take them to a black site and like get information out of them. You don't do that to your pals or.
What if he was joining with his.
Protection, Yeah, coach, sure, Okay, I.
Like it because I do think he spoke a little German, a little Russian.
I mean, if it was during the Cold War and he was hanging out, he might have picked up a little of both.
Yeah, no, he is in his room. They found a letter to his friend talking about Russia and communism. WHOA, So maybe he maybe is by.
In which case he would have been disappeared exactly for that.
Okay, well yes, yes, Well which side is he working for? Which is like, how do you prove that? Because he could be a turncoat turncoat you know, like you can take as many times as one. Well no, but really, and if you and if the CIA or any intelligence agency wants someone who's truly a shadow, who doesn't exist officially anywhere on paper, who isn't getting paid officially through any payroll, somebody who can just go and do stuff that the agency wants done that is off the books and maybe even illegal, somebody like this is who you get.
That's a great point. It is illegal, it is treason. So yeah, they would want to I guess protect him in that sense.
Yeah, and if you can get him, you know, up the ladder on the other side. We just talked recently about spies and a couple of high level spies in the US, like one guy who was working for the US coming for a long time, but he was actually working for the Cuban government for decades, like he was just reporting back to the Cuban government for decades, but he was I can't.
Remember his name. We'll look that up and talk about it here in a second.
But well, just can I just add that if you're thinking about this and this is interesting to you, we do have an episode or maybe it was was a whole episode about why so many spies have been getting caught like yeah.
They just did that. It was what Yeah, why are so many?
I think it's an important question and maybe a question that's older than you might think.
Yeah, yes, Manuel Roacha, by the way, is the gentleman's name. Forty years as a Cuban agent.
Wow, yeah, check that out.
So one more thing that you guys probably know a bit about. We mentioned how West Point's super prestigious. You can't just go a wall either, like they don't let that happen. So there was a very large search for Richard Cox as well.
Well, yeah, and everything you do is going to be on campus there. When he's talking about going to get a bite to eat or something, he's going to a restaurant that's a part of an establishment on campus somewhere. So it's not as it's like for all.
Intents and purposes, being on a military base have basically.
Yeah, you can't. You can't just walk off base and disappear. You sign in at times, you're checked, you are, it's regimented, you are training to be deployed. So yeah, there was a huge search. I mean, and I guess that's a question I have as well. The FBI was looking for him. He was being sought by the FBI, the army. Would the CIA communicate with the FBI to not search for him?
Oh, that's a good question. I don't know.
Wait, I don't put out a the opposite of an APB, like yeah, like, hey.
We have him, don't waste your okay.
Don't waste your resources.
Yeah, yeah, like like he's with us, don't Because they they did. He was declared dead in nineteen fifty seven, and there was an in tense search for this A Wall cadet, because again, he was the only West Point cadet to go missing from West Point ever.
Wow, that's a that's nuts. So seven years until he was declared dead, did the did intelligence services or the army ever stop looking for him or do they still look for him today?
I don't. I think once you're declared dead, they don't look for you.
Okay, I can't.
I can't confirm that. But at least with most missing persons cases, in those kinds of cases, when you declare someone dead, the case is closed. I don't know how the military does it. Heard, Oh yeah, okay, here we go nineteen seventy six, After searching Europe and North America, the case is officially closed by the Department of the Army.
Nineteen seventy six. Wow, so they left that open just in the like in the case that he is found somewhere doing something either he shouldn't be doing, or that only a few, you know, key individuals know he's doing.
So fast forward. In nineteen ninety six, a book comes out called Oblivion, and it cites a CIA operative as its source who claims that Richard Cox did work in the intelligence field in Europe during the Cold war, and it says he lived there until the nineteen nineties before dying of cancer in Maryland.
Oh wow, wait, so we can't Okay, so went and did all that stuff, then he came back. Well, just I guess to be with family that he disowned, and I.
Guess, like I have so many questions, like where did the fiance go?
Like what if I might take a just a momentary diversion from this story and just ask, have you heard this notion that Jim Morrison is alive and living in upstate New York and has been for you know, the duration of his life since he faked his own death. There's some document tree out that has like relatively compelling proof of this.
Yeah, he's with Paul McCartney when he faked his death.
So we got a little thousands of.
Young women getting killed because he was dead. Yeah.
No, I really want to see whatever this documentary is because I just I would, you know, as a pop culture nerd and as like a you know, music nerd, and also just a conspiracy nerd, I would love to find proof positive that somebody successfully, somebody that public successfully did a thing like that.
It would just be years ago, years ago. I interviewed this woman, Elizabeth Greenwood, and she wrote a book about faking your own death because she was like, I need to know if this is possible.
We did. We talked to her as well, didn't we met? What was the book called Ben's a Big Thing.
Yeah, I think it's called Yes.
A Million Percent. I don't know if we spoke to her, but Ben Ben loves that book and talks about it all the time.
Great, So then your listeners will absolutely know how nearly impossible it is to disappear yourself, especially these days. Maybe nineteen fifties not so much, but when you have the entire military government agency searching for you across continents.
Don't like your chances.
No, no. But one of the theories too, is that he disappeared himself because there were some reports that he was potentially gay and he was potentially seeing men secretively and kind of. When he came back from spring break, he realized he didn't want to be with his fiance.
And spring break does it every time.
Winter break, spring break, break, whatever. That is one of the theories that you know, he went a wall to go live a different life.
Totally.
I can okay, I can see that simply because of the year that this was taking place in the military, all of these things that that life, if that is your identity and your life and you're stuck in all of those, you know, different mechanisms that are controlling your life, one of the only ways out is to disappear, like really and truly, because you could probably get in trouble at that time for that stuff.
Not to be super heavy or anything. But my father, who was born in nineteen thirty seven and would have been in the military around the same time, after he passed away, we found out that he was secretly gay, and this was a secret that he had had to whatever, choose to live with, choose to move past, whatever. But the reality of it is he was not living his truth and went on to you know, work in Methodist churches as a choir director. He was from the opera world after his military time and working on a military base, et cetera. But I'm just saying I understand very personally that terrifying thing to have to make you know, those in those days, it just was not something that was okay, and it absolutely could have been the kind of thing that would lead someone who had the ability maybe more so than someone like my dad to do.
Mm hmm, wow. Wow, that's really that's an incredible story.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think I think, you know, especially all of us being born in the modern era, I think it's also really difficult to fathom what life was like in the fifties or someone who's gay. We're not even talking about the eighties, you know, it's like the nineteen fifties. Yeah, it was. Was it a did you just mention that it was a crime.
It wasn't a crime per se, but it was just totally even in like you know, the opera community in New York City, you know, which my dad was a part of, it just was like either an open secret, like I think maybe one one person folks might think of as Leonard Bernstein, who you know, was as openly gay as you could be in a world like that, but even he had to be very very careful about it, and you know, his wife kind of knew and allowed him to live that part of his life. But my dad wasn't as famous as Leonard Bernstein, so you know, anyway, it's just yeah, it was absolutely not a crime per se, but it was it could.
Have been the kind of thing through don't don't tell, right.
It's the kind of thing that could have ruined your career. It's the kind of thing that could have ruined not to mention, if you're in the military for all intents and purposes, it is a crime. It's an absolute life ruiner, for sure.
Yeah. And I just did a quick search about it. In the fifties, particularly in the military, and it says actually, fueled by the Cold War, they actively discriminated and purged LGBTQ plus individuals in the military, and this was known as the lavender scare very specifically the Cold War.
Do you recall that term?
Ugh, yeah, Yeah, the Cold War caught up pretty much anybody that was not in this cookie cutter shape of what the military wanted, and anybody that didn't fit in that shape, we are suspect of you because you could be unhappy with the way our cookie cutter is shaped.
Which makes sense, which.
Is ironic considering we were meant to be the great liberators of you know, the Jews under the Nazi regime, who absolutely had that same kind of mentality about purging queer people, about purging Jewish people, about pershing Romani people, you know, and then we absolutely adopted pretty much a maybe lighter but very similar approach to calling out the unwonted element.
Absolutely, then we got past it now in h.
We're post post.
Who was it that I was talking to recently, Not to get off the topic too much, but I know it was. It was my friend John Cameron Mitchell, who's the guy that created Hedwig and the Angry Inch, And he's just he's we've done some podcasting together and he's a lovely person. And he came to Atlanta and I was doing a talk and he mentioned the idea that he came from a military background and that it was the most in the I guess the seventies when he was in it, it was the most inclusive situation he'd ever been a part of, in that the generals, even when they were told to get rid of gay and trans people, they slow rolled it because it just didn't make sense, what's the word operationally to have that kind of you know, us versus them, Like if you're in, you're in. So it would seem based on John, that the attitude within the military has definitely actually changed.
Which you're correct there. My partner who Matt has met, he's a veteran, and he said, you know, when he sees all these like new Trump Trumpian, you know, kicking out trans people from the military, he was like, anyone actually serving does not feel that way, Like anyone currently serving actually loves having women in the military. He said, those units are better regimented, like better at at their jobs. So it's so fascinating. Yeah, not to get too off topic, but none.
I just think it's worth mentioning is the way things have changed, and there are some positive changes in ideology, even in a place that I was very surprised that you might find that, you know it which military.
So anyway, absolutely so Richard Cox, I don't know, Uh, maybe George was his lover and they ran away together. I feel like I lean more towards he went into some agency.
I feel like Richard and George is like the best version of this story. That's the happiest outcome.
That I think so too.
The scariest one is that he's a shadow doing stuff for the for the intelligence agencies that we never knew about.
Did I miss who Alice is?
No, we don't know who Alice is?
Okay, okay, just a.
Night terror and exactly we unclear I know in our episode Laura, Laura mentions a couple hypotheses. So if y'all want to listen to.
That, absolutely always good to have some homework. I mean that for folks at home to listen to if you want to find out more about either of these stories. I think we've got some great resources.
Yeah, Laura, I think read oblivion. So she's she's really up on all the theories around Richard Cox. And like I said, Payne did high strange doctor Travis Walton exactly.
Matt. Can I just applauge that you your self control for not mentioning Elder scrolls on the second mention of oblivion here, I just want to say, well done, sir.
I have a map of it in my basement.
Do you gifted me a map of l my guest room which is up there with pride?
Sorry, why don't be sorry.
It's an amazing thing.
I love it. It gives me joy. It makes me think of you every time I look at it.
Well, well, thanks, buddy, it gives me joy. On you have it really quickly, Maggie, before we let you go, if we if we step away from up in Vanish Weekly and we think about your work on wrongful conviction. And just as you're watching the news, as you're seeing changes occurring right now, is there anything we should be looking at or thinking about when it comes to individuals either being incarcerated or individuals being you know, shipped out of the country and maybe to a prison in Venezuela or somewhere else. What should we be thinking about right now?
Yeah, I think all of those things. I think one of the things that I'm really thinking about is when we're talking about wars overseas, we feel like they don't impact us at home, and we are currently embroiled in many situation overseas, But a lot of the technology that we use over there to fight our quote enemies civilians, we use here on our own people or we will be using. So cop Cities is something I'm thinking about a lot. And yeah, you guys an episode on Cop City.
We talked about it in news episodes, and we're talking about it as a very local, regional thing and a cause here in the Atlanta area, also pertaining to deforestation and just absolutely in Atlanta.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, just the the technology is I guess what I really want is what I'm trying to say is the technologies that we are using and testing overseas on civilian populations, on our quote enemies. These drones that we saw that can just go into a building and shoot people up. You don't need humans there. We have robot dogs. Those are all coming here. And if people don't think that our police will use those on us, If people don't think that, you know, people with green cards, you know, are now being deported, legal legal permanent residents are being deported. If you don't think that can happen to you, a citizen or.
Speaking out for speaking out against a regime.
So I think that's what I want people to think about. Like when we're like, oh it's overseas that it doesn't matter, Oh it's just happening to the brown people or the green card holders, it will come for you. They test it first to see what they can get away with. And that's what I want people to think about. I want you to go protest your cop cities. I want you to protest all of these people being deported and we don't even know who they are or what they do it.
Yeah, you know, we recently did an episode on the disposition matrix that is actually I want to say something that we had a little off in conversation with your partner about, which is just how specifically the Obama administration and every administration after that, and then into the before the Bush administration, how they look at an individual person and categorize them as leaning towards a terrorist organization or being a member of a terrorist organization, or you know, vulnerable to being influenced or that kind of thing, and then how that system could be taken and used to look at American citizens. And it feels pretty naive to think that there isn't something like that, some kind of way at looking at all of the people we know as individuals, all the things we search, all the conversations we have with the metadata, I mean, because we know all that stuff's getting picked up now days with stellar wind and all of these things.
Like it's well, that's a great example twenty years ago when what was it the Patriot Act, right, and we think it's just to surveil terror We're just surveiling terrorists, just those brown guys overseas. We're all being surveiled now, right, twenty years ago it was just for the bad guys. Now it's all of us, every single one of us. So for people to think that they're not going to just start snatching you up because something you posted on Twitter, that's that's incredibly naive and absolute.
And maybe this is naive or a little on the nose, but it just it makes me think of this incredible quote from a German pastor named Martin Emohler. I believe this is displayed at the National Holocaust Museum, and it's First, they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came from me, and there was no one left to.
Speak for me exactly.
So coming all kind of makes me tear up a little bit, y'all. It's it's heavy. I'm sorry it.
Is, and it's sad because it's happened, it's already happened, like and it's just happening again, and just it's just a different form. This time. It's in a technology form, you know, whereas last time it was like you know, I'm talking about World War Two. It was like this big military oc Gristapo exactly. Now it's in digital form.
Yes, well, guys on that. Sorry, sorry, this very serious important stuff, and it is it is worth your time to think about, right, and maybe have a conversation with somebody you care about about this thing. And and also, hey, listen to some podcasts that aren't specifically about that stuff or else all of us are going to go nuts. So Maggie, tell us where people should go to hear your shows, specifically Up and Vanish Weekly, and uh, just learn more about what.
You're up to.
Yeah, you could find me on all platforms, Maggie Freeling, and definitely search Up and Vanish Weekly. Follow it, rate it. It's really exciting. We're doing a lot of fun new stuff as the show progresses.
I know a spoiler alert. I'm on at least one of those episodes.
Yeah, you are too, you are You're on the pin train, Noel, do you want to come on? Please come on?
Put me in coach. I'm always down. Nobody asks me to be on stuff because I don't. I don't ask to be on stuff, but just let this be known. I'm always down to be on anything that you do, Maggie for sure.
Yeah. Well, I mean, any any strange case you want to talk about. I mean we also have a list of cases we could pitch you some or whatever.
Well, Maggie, I'm super down to be on anything that you are up to and would be honored. And let's uh, what do they say, Let's let's let's talk offline. We'll figure something out. But thank you so much for now for joining us today to talk about these cases and talk about all the cool stuff that you're working on.
Thank you, guys. I have been a huge fan forever. I listened weekly, Like I knew what your podcast was last week, I.
Didn't even know what it was.
I know's that means a ton, though, Maggie, because we're going really of everything you do.
No, you guys are so fun and smart, and I know your listeners are too, so I hope there is some crossover, y'all. Please come submit cases to us, listen to us. We love this this little pod family here.
Hey, and if you want to reach out and contact us, you can find us all over the internet, right, Noel.
Yeah, you sure can. You can find us at the handle conspiracy stuff, where we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group. Here's where it gets crazy. On x FKA Twitter and they're having some troubles over there here and on YouTube where we have video CODs at Galore for your perusing enjoyment. On Instagram and TikTok, who are also having some trouble. We are the Spiracy Stuff Show. But wait, there's more.
There's no trouble besides the trouble you're about to create at one eight three three STDWYTK that's our voicemail system. When you call in, you've got three minutes, give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if we can use your name and message on the air. If you got more to say than can fit in three minutes, maybe you want to send us an attachment, maybe a couple images of your kiddykat anything, Send us a good old fashioned email.
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