Hey, this is anning and welcome to stuff I've never told re production of I heart ideas how stuff works for today's classic. We're bringing back when that we we something we kind of mentioned in our Wow this whole decade happens. So what happened in the pre the nippless So I don't really I remember this happening only because I was working out on this show at the time. But I will say, as a runner, sometimes I do get a little frustrated. I can't just look around topless, but men can't. Like even then, even women just wearing a sports braws like, yeah, yeah, I unfortunately don't even have the courage to do that yet. Oh I don't either. One day, I've just gotten the carriage to actually change in the locker room. Not care enough really, So I turn around because you said you would go into the bathroom stall, and now I'm looking out, I don't. I'm just gonna turn around now, Yeah you've not seen boobies. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I don't understand. Yeah, this is something I've heard. I've discussed a lot with my friends, kind of this annoyance that it's this whole thing that our breasts are so sexualized it doesn't even really make sense. It's just a batty tissue. But yeah, this has been, especially on social media, kind of an ongoing fight because the girl who was just advertising to do nudes to raise money for the fire Australian fires, she got suspended her account got us suspend, yeah, as a violation. So still ongoing. She wasn't even showing anything. She just offered, Oh, well, I guess we have a lot. We still have a lot to sort out, and that is still ongoing. It is I believe, I said Sarah Silverman. She just did one post of comparing her to a man and essentially was talking about this is okay, but this isn't the same level. Yes, that's all for you, So we hope that you enjoy this classic episode, a look back on free the Nipple? What are you those nipples? Welcome to Stuff Mob Never told You from how stupports dot com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Carolina and I'm Kristen. We're continuing boob Week this week with Free the Nipple. We're looking at the free the Nipple movement. It's also a movie, it's a hashtag. It's really like a multimedia experience, including the ones on your chest. You have them too, I have nipples. Yeah, yeah, it turns out that we all do, and that they are currently your nipples are swept up in a political movement known as Free the Nipple. And this is we're jumping off, of course, from Monday's episode on toplessness and the legalities and the rules and regulations in our country sort of around the world too when it comes to women bearing their breasts and the implications of that. Yeah, because, as we talked about more in depth in our episode why Can't Women Go topless? Breast did have a big moment in Western fashion because, especially in the mid to late seventeenth century and eighteenth century, very low cut dresses were in vogue for women. Um some might even let a little bit of their nips slip. And because of that, nipple rouge was a thing, and it did not signify that you were some kind of prostitute, but rather you were a high class woman. Well yeah, but I mean it was part of pop culture, and just the way that pop culture trickles down today, it was the same thing all the way back then. Yes, you had queens and ladies at court wearing these incredibly low cut dresses, but you also had prostitute sporting the fashion. And just because it didn't necessarily symbolize sexiness, and of course, I mean exposing your nipple didn't necessarily indicate sexiness or sexuality, it doesn't mean they weren't part of the sex cells ethos. And I thought this was really interesting. I've never read about this before, that there were woodcut images of women with bare breasts that appeared on ballad sheets to illustrate the text as a selling point. So even though nipples, yeah, they weren't a big deal. It was like maybe if you were wore a mini skirt. Now it's not like a huge deal, but they were still considered attractive enough to be part of a sales pitch when trying to sell these ballad sheets. So in this era, exposed nipples could suggest high class uh, prostitution, chastity, sexiness, maternity, and love. Yeah, that makes that's it's so clear cut. It's so clear cut. Yeah, I'm really glad we're having this easy, breezy conversation. But yeah, I mean, if you look at art from from back in that era, I mean, a woman could have her breast exposed to symbolize here, she's a mother, she's taking care of these children, but it could also be provocative and sexy too, just oh my god, just the same way that women are complicated beings in real life. So if we fast forward quite a bit from the eighteenth century to today, there's a lot of conversation and protests and activism and social media ing going on around female nipples in particular, and it runs the gamut from people like the radical feminist group found it in Ukraine called Femine, which uses to bless protesting to call out not only the idea of the male gays, but more specifically to try to confront and take down repressive regimes and religion. But then you also have the less intrusive in a way they're they're certainly not running up and trying to attack the pope like Femine. You have hashtag free the Nipple, which is a viral social media hashtag which is calling for female nipples specifically and breast to be normalized. Yeah, I mean, I think that's great. We talked a lot about normalizing the female body, specifically the female breast in our episode on toplessness, and I don't think that's off the mark. I think that's a good idea, But there is something about how very social media, cool girl viral, this free the nipple movement is that has lent itself, I think, to being criticized by all of the think piece writers out there, especially when a lot of the proponents of it are celebrities. It reminds me, Caroline of the period Pride podcasts, where a lot of that is social media driven, of um intentionally posting photos on Instagram suggesting or outright showing menstrual blood, only to have it taken down and then start a conversation that way. It's the same thing, only instead of used tampons, we have unused nipples. Unused nipples. I mean, it's not like we're not used to seeing nipples to a certain degree. I mean we're certainly okay with them in in fashion, for instance, I mean, it's not uncommon to open a fashion magazine and see both editorial content and ads featuring women's boobs. But it's almost the same attitude. It made me think of how in our Toplessness episode we talked about how it's okay for men to go into a strip club willingly or women know and pay to see topless women. Like, that's okay legally where everyone's comfortable with that. But the minute that woman walks outside and her boobs are out on the street, if she if she leaves to go take a smoke break, it just doesn't put on a shirt. But I like how boobs out on the street makes me think, like her boobs and their high heels just like walking along the boobs need a break to get some air. But it's kind of the same concept almost that like, and we're so accustomed to seeing that in high fashion. We're so accustomed to seeing nipples being out all aggressive and out there rouged, even in our fashion magazines. But it's that's where we expect to see them. We don't expect to see nipples necessarily outside in the real world or on social media. So we see it in the high culture in the low culture. But what about in between. Well, be because of celebrity culture, we have been seeing them more on red carpets. I mean Rihanna really in terms of celebrities, Rihanna has I mean freed her nipples. I mean she's kind of led the charge in terms of freeing the nipple because she just doesn't care and kind of an amazing way. Um. She used to actually post pretty niptastic photos on Instagram all the time until Instagram removed so many of her photos. She was finally like, well, screw you, Instagram, I'm gonna leave. And then famously in she arrived at the CFDA Awards and accustom made Adam Salman gown that showed everything. It was basically like, uh, a crystal chain mail dress. It was just like a gem encrusted mesh dress and she she was wearing like a flesh toned g string, but she had her nipples out and Vogue was like, oh wow, you know, or have nipples completely lost their shock value? We weren't even looking at them. We swear we were looking at the dress and the dress was amazing. I mean, it's true. If you do look at images of her in that bedazzled dress, there's so much going on in the detailing of the dress that once you get to her aerial and you're like, oh, nipples, Okay, now let's look more of these gems. Yeah, exactly, there's something shiny. It's so distracting and over the fashion spot. Also in June, the writer points out that fall fashion shows saw a quote actual nipple trend and that all of the sheer tops led to a nipple extravagance. Nipple extravaganza. Um. She She says that Kendall Jenner, of all people, normalized the nip extravaganza. She says that when Kendall made her now infamous breast revealing New York Fashion Week debut on the catwalk at Mark Jake Runway, boobs, We're here to stay, but we we gotta give a quick throwback though to the ur Mono Keny, I mean really Rudy Gernreich who designed the Mono Keny and also the thong um, and you can learn more about that and the stuff I never told you video or thongs. Anti feminists UM tried to make the Mono Keni happen because of a very similar free the nipple etho, saying ladies, let your free form flow here there. It's basically a brief with tiny suspenders to to hold it up, um, but the suspenders go between your boobs. And he was raised in more of a German nudist culture, so you can imagine it did not go well in the United States. But I was also fascinated to learn a mid all this research speaking of Germany, that it's the East Germans who were all like nudity, it's cool, it's Wednesday, let's get naked, take off top. And it's the West Germans who are who are a little more scandalized by it. But I can only imagine that Americans are even more scandalized than any Germans by this. I mean, oh yeah, Americans are amazing fruits when it comes to some exposed nipple. Oh yeah. We we believe that our entire community and our community standards will somehow crumble if a woman's nipples look at us, if they are pointed in our general direction, what do they wink at you? Yeah? I know that's terrifying. Um, that is terrifying if if a nipple were to wink at you. But hey, in the last episode we talked about them screaming. So you know, we're just on a roll hysterical nipples. It's like all of all stuff I've never told you in in one piece of anatomy. Um. So there is free The nipple, though, is not only a hashtag, but it's also a movement, Caroline. It is a movement, and it's not a movement of anthropomorphize boobs in high heels marching down the street. Um yeah. Actress Lena Esco actually launched the hashtag free the Nipple movement a couple of years ago, um which she says it's meant to be playful but controversial. She says, there's no way the wheels would be turning unless something was going to spark it, something controversial, and that was Free the Nipples. So it starts with a movie. She back in, got the idea for a Free the Nipple movie, got financing in and she wrote, directed, produced, and starred in the film, which is a political comedy, not a documentary as I initially thought, which came out in December, and it seems like it's around this time that it, like the whole free the Nipple thing really explodes. Yeah, because I've been the most exposed to free the nipple on social media, as confronting Instagram's policies regarding breastfeeding or any kind of female nipple exposure. Facebook, Twitter the same thing, and social media wise, it does seem like images of breastfeeding paved the way for this more general call to free the nipple, because I remember, I mean for a number of years now. Facebook and Instagram have since updated their policies. But when you would have the story go viral about the mom who had a really sweet photo taken of her baby breastfeeding, and she would post it somewhere for everyone to see in comment and like, and then Instagram or Facebook would take it off for being inappropriate, and so that really started a conversation which has since though broadened. Yeah, I mean, if ESCO's name sounds familiar, it could also be because in summer before the movie came out, she actually created a p s A called Everybody who Has Got to Eat in an effort to normalize breastfeeding in public, and it was part of an effort to get Facebook to drop its breast feeding photo ban. And on the Free the Nipple website it does mention breastfeeding. They write the issues where addressing or equal rights for men and women, a more balanced system of censorship, and legal rights for all women to breastfeed in public. It's the very simple idea that women should not be shamed for breastfeeding their kids. And that's certainly nothing new either. I mean, the the ability to breastfeed in public without censure or even worse risk of arrest or fines is something that groups like l League, for instance, have been advocating for since the nineteen fifties, which is wild when you think about how long nipples in public have been, you know, such a hot topic. Yeah, and writing about that hot topic about why breastfeeding might skive some people out. Jamiel Goldenberg and Tommy and Roberts wrote a chapter in the book Handbook of Experimental Existential Psychology that for the nipples secrete milk and our hints reminders of our creaturely mammalian nature. Um, so they're they're basically writing that it creates this taboo in society that like, we're reminded that women's boobs aren't just there for men's sexual pleasure. So nipples freak us out because they're reminders that we're all animals. Is that what's going on? Humans are so weird, Caroline, so weird when I want to just go take a nap. But I mean, it's this, it's this greater conversation about women's bodies and women having control over their own bodies and not being freaking thrown in jail or arrested or penalized for things like breastfeeding or going topless. That's behind Esco and other people's push for the movie because the film's premise, which she says was inspired by true events. They basically follow a group of young women who take to the streets of New York City topless to protest the archaic censorship laws of the United States, and they say that it explores the contradictions in our media dominated society where acts of violence and killing or glorified while images of a woman's body are censored, so trying to point out that people consider nipples almost to be more obscene than bloody, gory killing and case in point, during the filming of Free the Nipple, New York City police threatened to shut down production, so instead of getting permits for the second half of the movie, she shot when she could, and so when the scene called for a topless protest in public, she held an actual topless protest in public because female toplessness in public is legal in New York State and so the cops cannot arrest them. So this is like an endless chain of art imitating life imitating art because the police mistakenly thought that they were walking around topless to be intentionally prurient, right because when people see naked female breast, they think sex. Well, unless there's a baby attached to that breast, and then they think sex. Oh no, wait, that's breastfeeding. Yeah, in which case you should go hide yourself because you're an animal. Yeah, because you're uncomfortable because you might still think sex. But then you're also like, oh no, maternity, Oh no, what are we really animals? Right? And then yeah, and then your your brain exploits. But I do think it's interesting that they are these women are being sort of hassled by the police in New York, whether their protest was for the movie or whether it was an actual protest staged by topless women. Because in a paper that we talked about a lot in our first episode by Rena Glazer about sort of the legal issues surrounding women going topless. Um, there was one particular case where there were some women in New York who, as part of a protest unequal regulations of men's chests versus women's, they went to this kind of secluded New York City park, almost sort of baiting the police to arrest them in any way, to gloss over a whole lot of legal and judicial wrangling. Uh, the legal stuff dragged on for years and years, and on one of the appeals, the court basically said, hey, these women are cool because they were protesting. They're not just like aimlessly topless. They were using their chests as part of speech, almost, and so they were protected under the First Amendment. And meanwhile, the women are tearing their hair out, going, no, we don't want just women who are protesting while topless to be protected. We wanted to be okay for any woman to have her nips out, which is a cause that celebrities have now taken up, and we're going to talk about that when we come right back from a quick break. Well, Kristen mentioned celebrities taking up the mantle of hashtag free the Nipple, and this is another part where Carol gets I rolly because reading about celebrities like Scout and rumor Willis or even Russell Simmons supporting the free the Nipple movement, I almost don't trust it because it seems like they're not really actually that concerned about those bigger issues of women being penalized for breastfeeding in public, or women being penalized unjustly for going topless in states where it's legal. It almost. It's very easy to dismiss celebrity participation in this because it's like, oh, where are you just mad about Instagram? Yeah, Instagram has been ground zero in a lot of ways for free the nipple. Especially the celebrity side of this so called move have meant um because you mentioned Scout Willis, for instance, who in May decided to test the toplessness laws in New York City. Is part of activism and protests. And so she put on a pretty skirt and nothing else and took a walk down the street and took a photo of herself doing so and posted it on Instagram and also Twitter. I believe, basically so that it would get taken down because once you post something on social media and that social media company removes it because of its you know, decency policy, then you have a viral story on your hands. And she was right, So this whole thing blew up, and she said at one point quote matters like the taboo of the nipple. In the twenty one century, public breastfeeding, slut shaming, fat shaming, breast cancer, and wareness, body positivity, general equality and censorship have found their way into mainstream discussion. So with that Caroline. It sounds like Scout does get it. It sounds like she gets it. But there are still plenty of women out there who were saying that putting your boobs out or putting your nips out is not doing feminism right, I mean, there's plenty of critics. Yeah, yes, Kristen is rolling her eyes super hard, and I think it's it is, like I said, it's easy for a lot of people to dismiss the actions of celebrities when they don't trust them to actually be part of the movement. But but like you said, it does sound like I mean, it sounds like Scout get it. I mean doesn't feel sometimes like activism and feminism is being commodified through celebrity culture in these instances. Yes, I had my oh here we go again moment with it all when Chelsea Handler, who I like, Please don't send me letters about how great Chelsea Handler is. I like her. She can be funny at times, um, But when she posted her topless photo of her riding on a horse, very very gallantly on Instagram, of course immediately got a ton of attention. And she said, I mean, the whole contrast slash joke was like putin read posted an identical photo of himself and she was like, well Putin can do this, then why can't I? What's wrong with women's bodies? And at that point, to me being a little bit of a cynic, I suppose it seemed like a media attention grab, but it's also to the same conversation that comes up with empower tizing of using female empowerment and feminist the slogans to sell goods as well. I mean, it's the question of, well, is it such a bad thing that celebrities are hopping on board, because maybe that signals that this is going mainstream right to get people talking about it for sure, and definitely uh the topless child of two really famous actors, I mean, that does get people talking, for sure. And I am glad that what came out of that was a quote like, hey, guys, we've got all of this stuff we need to talk about, and now that you're looking at my boobs, let's hear what I have to say about it too, So like at least that came out of it. And model and actress Kara day Levine joined the conversation as well. She posted a picture although her nipple was exed out. I believe she posted a picture of her naked chest next to a man's naked chest, and they drew a little diagram, which is very helpful. Again if you're a visual learner, I love diagram I love like infographics, but on skin, um drawing around like here's the nipple, here's the areola, here's the breast tissue, and basically saying like this is fine in the world and on social media, and this one over here that belongs to a woman is not. Like, we want equality, We want the same abilities to go topless as anybody else, which led to one of my favorite free the Nipple off shoots, which were these male nipple image pasties of sorts um that someone I forget who it is who made them. That you could if you were a woman and you wanted to post a topless photo of yourself but not haven't taken down from social media, you could simply superimpose these male nipples on top of your female nipples so that the photo would no longer be indecent. Oh yeah, there are blogs out there that have done it on the female nude, like sculptures, paintings from history, you know, very famous works of art. Pasting a male nipple on top of it, like, hey, well this is okay now right, this is fine well, and then on the flip side of that you have orange is the new black Star Matt and mcgory who photoshop nipples of Miley Cyrus and Christie Teagan onto his pecks um And he wrote on the Instagram caption, it's not just about getting an even tan. It's one piece of the puzzle of creating deep change in the way our society objectifies women and creates these different standards for men and women and other genders. Yeah. I mean, Matt McGrory has been super vocal lately about issues relating to women and feminism, and it's really refreshing to see because he also doesn't seem like he's just jumping in and pointing his finger people and being like here's what I think and this is why you should believe it too, and blah blah blah. He seems to be listening just as much as he's joining in conversations. But it is funny that he's literally, I mean, it just highlights it highlights the ridiculousness of all aspects of this that here's a man, an attractive man who takes nipples belonging to ladies and he puts them over his own. Uh, and it's fine because he is still a person with a male body. But Caroline, because this exists on the internet, not everybody loves it. Not everybody want to free the nipple. You mentioned earlier a number of think pieces that have thumbed their nose at the whole thing. Yeah, one was by Chica Dalmia over the Week in June, and she was not having it. She is not having it. She calls the movement ham handed and shocked jockey, which is actually the new nicknames for Kristen and me. It was ham handed. Fine, well now I'll be shocked jockey. All right, here we go, let's read the nips um. But yeah, she says that few real women outside of college campuses can relate to it other than publicity hungry celebrities, so she is a total skeptic. She does not believe that the Willis sisters or any other celebrity could possibly have any good intentions behind this at all. She goes on to say, hey, why not try to eliminate all double standards and do away with all public and decency laws. Hey, why not start a free the balls movement. Well, ladies, you you know, be super comfortable with that, right. You know what. Mark Dupless, by the way, who is the He's in um the League and it is also in uh he created and stars in Togetherness. He and his brother have talked about how there needs to be more testicle equality on film because you know, we see full frontal females all the time, but where those testicles? Yeah, she uh, Dalmia would would totally. She's definitely not in agreement. I think she's definitely like, uh, nobody wants to see balls and so therefore also hydra nipples. Yeah, I don't really want to get on my Instagram fee and see nothing but scrot um. But she also says something um interesting that we we sort of talked around this and about this in our last episode. She says, look, women's breasts are sexual in a way that men's are not. And I am not willing to de sexualize myself. But I think it's interesting that she does again tie breasts completely all the way back to sexuality, not seeming to really leave room for that idea of like I'm just a lady on my front porch not wanting to wear a shirt because it's hot outside. It seems like she's not even okay with that idea. Yeah, I think that perspective removes context out of sexuality and does speak to more of an objectification perspective where we aren't where our bodies aren't part of our collective person, but rather our person is a collection of body parts, whole stack of meat. But there is some critique of Free the Nipple that really has gotten my brain wheels a turn in, and it does have to do with the sexualization of the breast and also the kinds of breasts that we see most prominently in Free the Nipple, And it reminds me a lot of conversations that arose a couple of years ago when slut walks were happening a lot because there are very particular colors at least and sizes too, but largely colors of breasts that we're seeing. They're all for the most part white, all for the most part. Isn't is that too qualifying? All totally incompletely many of them are white. It does seem like a conversation where women of color are marginalized, if not completely invisible. Yeah. Writing over at Bustle, Georgina Jones points out that this is an ego boost for those comfortable enough to participate, essentially a new beauty standard for women to be judged on in the Who's the Best Feminist Olympics. She also says that it's just for women with quote unquote sellable breasts like the ones that are that that type of more quote unquote quantified breasts that are featured on the Free the Nipple shirt itself, like promoting the film. Yeah, I mean, but and I can understand and though why in imagery for that film they would use the more stereotypically sexy boobs because that's the whole point of the thing, is it examining the sexiness factor? Yeah? But Jones laments the fact that sort of this bigger movement that we talked about, especially in our first episode on toplessness, in the legal issues surrounding it. She says that it's been sort of co opted in order to create another impossible beauty standard when the only people we see in this movement are basically white, able bodied, this gendered women, particularly like actresses and upper class women in the media. Well, maybe I've just seen different breasts, but I have seen a diversity size, shape, wise of breasts that have been so called freed through this whole thing. And I understand what Jones is stayinging, But rather than trying to throw dynamite on the whole thing, I think that it's maybe more instructive to consider how our perception of bared breasts perhaps does change when you add layers of disability, or ethnicity or socio economics to this. How does it, you know, how how does sex work interact with all of these things? Like there there isn't an element of privilege to it, But I think that that's caused for maybe more conversation and analysis rather than just stop feminist ng in this way, because I really I think it's unfortunate when things devolve into that often on social media. It's all it's all fueled by social media. Yeah, it's all. Yes, it's blog posts, it's thing pieces, it's hashtags pointing fingers at each other. And so I like, I mean not to just be like and the man is doing it right, But I like Matt mcgory's tactic, for instance, of being like, hey, like, here's this thing I'm going to point out and and and you know, thoughtfully question it um just as other women have done. Um, I think that's a good way to go about it, instead of necessarily pointing fingers and saying stop doing this, because I mean, like we pointed out, Scott Willis was able to get a conversation started, although Caroline, there was an intersection of this topless conversation we've been having and women of color at a protest in May in San Francisco for Black Lives Matter, where women black women were protesting without their shirts on to call attention specifically to uh institutionalized violence toward black women and black women's bodily integrity as well. So, I mean, that's why I think that these conversations are still important to have and not just to say you know what, I don't that's that's not right. But how do we broaden it? I think that we just need to, I mean, just continue removing all of the layers, so to speak, literally, figuratively, conversationally. Yeah. So, I wonder is this the future of protests that women are just taking their shirts off to draw attention to their cause or is it social media? I mean, we talked about social media activism and our Social Justice Warriors podcast, and the fact of the matter is it's effective at the very least at starting conversations, yeah, and helping people to organize around an idea. Yeah. But whether Middle America is anywhere close to seeing a female and nipple and not freaking out a little bit, I think we're a long way from that. But I'm really curious though, too, to hear from international listeners as well, because, um, I know the US isn't the only country that has boob hang ups, So I'd love to get as diverse a perspective on this as as possible, because I do think it's something that is different for everybody and something that everyone has an opinion on because a lot of people have nipples, as it turns out. Yea, So send us all of your free the nipple thoughts. Mom Stuff at house stuff works dot com is our email address. You can also tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast and use the hashtag for the nipple if you like, or messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages to share with you right now. So I have a letter here that does relate to Boob's Caroline and also to wastes. This is from Heather about our episode on a waste training. She writes, high Ladies, I just discovered your podcast. Thanks for a recommendation from a friend. I enjoy it immensely. Keep up the good work. Thank you, Heather. I just listened to your podcast on waste training and I can so relate. For my wedding last year, I bought a corset bra Hey, I'm a double D and had a straplest dress. Girls needed extra support. It had the boning and didn't seem to be that tight on me. Well, then I had my bridesmaids do up my corset back wedding gown really tight and o MG, my boobs and booty looked amazing. But I couldn't eat any of my dinner at the reception. I almost passed out at the ceremony, and when I finally took it off for the night, my rib cage was so so so sore and t m I. I ended up being constipated the whole night from it. The only way I could relieve the horrific stomach cramps I was getting was to apply pressure to my abdomen. It was not worth the pain. So, Heather, I'm so sorry to hear that, but cautionary tail, especially on your wedding day. I want to be able to eat my cake. I want to have my cake and eat it too. Yeah, wedding stretchy pants. There we go. There we go, solving all the problems and at leisurely wedding. Okay, well, I have a letter here from Caitlin Um, also about our Waiste training episode. She says, I just tried using a corset for the first time as part of my postpartum regime, and I thought i'd share my experience with you. I decided to dry using a corset for two reasons. After I had my first child, I felt so weak in my core for the first week or two after birth. It seemed impossible to stand up straight. I thought, of course, it might provide me with some core support until I actually had my own core muscles back in working order again. Additionally, I thought the course it would help my post pregnancy pucci belly disappear faster. I actually asked my O B g U I N about it, thinking he wouldn't have any objections, and was surprised when he did. While he thought it wouldn't be problematic if I were it for a few weeks, he was concerned that if I were it for a long period of time. It wouldn't allow my core muscles to recover and do the job they're meant to do, which is one of the ideas you mentioned in the podcast. Despite my doctor's lack of enthusiasm, I bought one. It was a little hard to decide what to buy because there are a bunch of different brands and types. I settled on a model that had boning and several rows of hooks and eyes that allow you to continually cinch the thing tighter and tighter. It wasn't cheap, around eighty five bucks. I started using it for two days after I gave birth, and more at daily for six to eight hours a day for roughly two weeks. It was less uncomfortable than I feared, but there were a few problems that finally led me to abandon it more quickly than I had anticipated. First, it's hot, especially in Hawaii in the middle of the summer. Plus it was too long for my torso so it would dig in under my breast or into my thighs when I sat down, not comfortable, especially when breastfeeding. Finally, it was a pain trying to use the bathroom while wearing it, and this is particularly true since I was dealing with post birth lady issues in the bathroom. However, I swear that it did help my belly shrink faster than it would have without it, and it helped me non maternity clothes right away, which was nice considering I was so sick of all my maternity clothes by then, and it was no small thing to hear, Wow, you just had a baby. You look great when I was out wearing it. Even though it wasn't perfect, I would and have still recommend it for new moms. The only thing I would do differently is order a few different options and try them on in order to find the one that fit better. I think I would have worn it longer if it had. Looking forward to your next episode, your sides and banter with each other always make me L O L literally well, Thank you, Caitlin, and thanks to everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot Com is our email address and for links to all of our social media as well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcast, including this one with our sources so you can learn more about bringing the nipple head on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics. Does it, how stuff works, dot com

Hey, this is anning and welcome to stuff I've never told re production of I heart ideas how stuff works for today's classic. We're bringing back when that we we something we kind of mentioned in our Wow this whole decade happens. So what happened in the pre the nippless So I don't really I remember this happening only because I was working out on this show at the time. But I will say, as a runner, sometimes I do get a little frustrated. I can't just look around topless, but men can't. Like even then, even women just wearing a sports braws like, yeah, yeah, I unfortunately don't even have the courage to do that yet. Oh I don't either. One day, I've just gotten the carriage to actually change in the locker room. Not care enough really, So I turn around because you said you would go into the bathroom stall, and now I'm looking out, I don't. I'm just gonna turn around now, Yeah you've not seen boobies. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I don't understand. Yeah, this is something I've heard. I've discussed a lot with my friends, kind of this annoyance that it's this whole thing that our breasts are so sexualized it doesn't even really make sense. It's just a batty tissue. But yeah, this has been, especially on social media, kind of an ongoing fight because the girl who was just advertising to do nudes to raise money for the fire Australian fires, she got suspended her account got us suspend, yeah, as a violation. So still ongoing. She wasn't even showing anything. She just offered, Oh, well, I guess we have a lot. We still have a lot to sort out, and that is still ongoing. It is I believe, I said Sarah Silverman. She just did one post of comparing her to a man and essentially was talking about this is okay, but this isn't the same level. Yes, that's all for you, So we hope that you enjoy this classic episode, a look back on free the Nipple? What are you those nipples? Welcome to Stuff Mob Never told You from how stupports dot com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Carolina and I'm Kristen. We're continuing boob Week this week with Free the Nipple. We're looking at the free the Nipple movement. It's also a movie, it's a hashtag. It's really like a multimedia experience, including the ones on your chest. You have them too, I have nipples. Yeah, yeah, it turns out that we all do, and that they are currently your nipples are swept up in a political movement known as Free the Nipple. And this is we're jumping off, of course, from Monday's episode on toplessness and the legalities and the rules and regulations in our country sort of around the world too when it comes to women bearing their breasts and the implications of that. Yeah, because, as we talked about more in depth in our episode why Can't Women Go topless? Breast did have a big moment in Western fashion because, especially in the mid to late seventeenth century and eighteenth century, very low cut dresses were in vogue for women. Um some might even let a little bit of their nips slip. And because of that, nipple rouge was a thing, and it did not signify that you were some kind of prostitute, but rather you were a high class woman. Well yeah, but I mean it was part of pop culture, and just the way that pop culture trickles down today, it was the same thing all the way back then. Yes, you had queens and ladies at court wearing these incredibly low cut dresses, but you also had prostitute sporting the fashion. And just because it didn't necessarily symbolize sexiness, and of course, I mean exposing your nipple didn't necessarily indicate sexiness or sexuality, it doesn't mean they weren't part of the sex cells ethos. And I thought this was really interesting. I've never read about this before, that there were woodcut images of women with bare breasts that appeared on ballad sheets to illustrate the text as a selling point. So even though nipples, yeah, they weren't a big deal. It was like maybe if you were wore a mini skirt. Now it's not like a huge deal, but they were still considered attractive enough to be part of a sales pitch when trying to sell these ballad sheets. So in this era, exposed nipples could suggest high class uh, prostitution, chastity, sexiness, maternity, and love. Yeah, that makes that's it's so clear cut. It's so clear cut. Yeah, I'm really glad we're having this easy, breezy conversation. But yeah, I mean, if you look at art from from back in that era, I mean, a woman could have her breast exposed to symbolize here, she's a mother, she's taking care of these children, but it could also be provocative and sexy too, just oh my god, just the same way that women are complicated beings in real life. So if we fast forward quite a bit from the eighteenth century to today, there's a lot of conversation and protests and activism and social media ing going on around female nipples in particular, and it runs the gamut from people like the radical feminist group found it in Ukraine called Femine, which uses to bless protesting to call out not only the idea of the male gays, but more specifically to try to confront and take down repressive regimes and religion. But then you also have the less intrusive in a way they're they're certainly not running up and trying to attack the pope like Femine. You have hashtag free the Nipple, which is a viral social media hashtag which is calling for female nipples specifically and breast to be normalized. Yeah, I mean, I think that's great. We talked a lot about normalizing the female body, specifically the female breast in our episode on toplessness, and I don't think that's off the mark. I think that's a good idea, But there is something about how very social media, cool girl viral, this free the nipple movement is that has lent itself, I think, to being criticized by all of the think piece writers out there, especially when a lot of the proponents of it are celebrities. It reminds me, Caroline of the period Pride podcasts, where a lot of that is social media driven, of um intentionally posting photos on Instagram suggesting or outright showing menstrual blood, only to have it taken down and then start a conversation that way. It's the same thing, only instead of used tampons, we have unused nipples. Unused nipples. I mean, it's not like we're not used to seeing nipples to a certain degree. I mean we're certainly okay with them in in fashion, for instance, I mean, it's not uncommon to open a fashion magazine and see both editorial content and ads featuring women's boobs. But it's almost the same attitude. It made me think of how in our Toplessness episode we talked about how it's okay for men to go into a strip club willingly or women know and pay to see topless women. Like, that's okay legally where everyone's comfortable with that. But the minute that woman walks outside and her boobs are out on the street, if she if she leaves to go take a smoke break, it just doesn't put on a shirt. But I like how boobs out on the street makes me think, like her boobs and their high heels just like walking along the boobs need a break to get some air. But it's kind of the same concept almost that like, and we're so accustomed to seeing that in high fashion. We're so accustomed to seeing nipples being out all aggressive and out there rouged, even in our fashion magazines. But it's that's where we expect to see them. We don't expect to see nipples necessarily outside in the real world or on social media. So we see it in the high culture in the low culture. But what about in between. Well, be because of celebrity culture, we have been seeing them more on red carpets. I mean Rihanna really in terms of celebrities, Rihanna has I mean freed her nipples. I mean she's kind of led the charge in terms of freeing the nipple because she just doesn't care and kind of an amazing way. Um. She used to actually post pretty niptastic photos on Instagram all the time until Instagram removed so many of her photos. She was finally like, well, screw you, Instagram, I'm gonna leave. And then famously in she arrived at the CFDA Awards and accustom made Adam Salman gown that showed everything. It was basically like, uh, a crystal chain mail dress. It was just like a gem encrusted mesh dress and she she was wearing like a flesh toned g string, but she had her nipples out and Vogue was like, oh wow, you know, or have nipples completely lost their shock value? We weren't even looking at them. We swear we were looking at the dress and the dress was amazing. I mean, it's true. If you do look at images of her in that bedazzled dress, there's so much going on in the detailing of the dress that once you get to her aerial and you're like, oh, nipples, Okay, now let's look more of these gems. Yeah, exactly, there's something shiny. It's so distracting and over the fashion spot. Also in June, the writer points out that fall fashion shows saw a quote actual nipple trend and that all of the sheer tops led to a nipple extravagance. Nipple extravaganza. Um. She She says that Kendall Jenner, of all people, normalized the nip extravaganza. She says that when Kendall made her now infamous breast revealing New York Fashion Week debut on the catwalk at Mark Jake Runway, boobs, We're here to stay, but we we gotta give a quick throwback though to the ur Mono Keny, I mean really Rudy Gernreich who designed the Mono Keny and also the thong um, and you can learn more about that and the stuff I never told you video or thongs. Anti feminists UM tried to make the Mono Keni happen because of a very similar free the nipple etho, saying ladies, let your free form flow here there. It's basically a brief with tiny suspenders to to hold it up, um, but the suspenders go between your boobs. And he was raised in more of a German nudist culture, so you can imagine it did not go well in the United States. But I was also fascinated to learn a mid all this research speaking of Germany, that it's the East Germans who were all like nudity, it's cool, it's Wednesday, let's get naked, take off top. And it's the West Germans who are who are a little more scandalized by it. But I can only imagine that Americans are even more scandalized than any Germans by this. I mean, oh yeah, Americans are amazing fruits when it comes to some exposed nipple. Oh yeah. We we believe that our entire community and our community standards will somehow crumble if a woman's nipples look at us, if they are pointed in our general direction, what do they wink at you? Yeah? I know that's terrifying. Um, that is terrifying if if a nipple were to wink at you. But hey, in the last episode we talked about them screaming. So you know, we're just on a roll hysterical nipples. It's like all of all stuff I've never told you in in one piece of anatomy. Um. So there is free The nipple, though, is not only a hashtag, but it's also a movement, Caroline. It is a movement, and it's not a movement of anthropomorphize boobs in high heels marching down the street. Um yeah. Actress Lena Esco actually launched the hashtag free the Nipple movement a couple of years ago, um which she says it's meant to be playful but controversial. She says, there's no way the wheels would be turning unless something was going to spark it, something controversial, and that was Free the Nipples. So it starts with a movie. She back in, got the idea for a Free the Nipple movie, got financing in and she wrote, directed, produced, and starred in the film, which is a political comedy, not a documentary as I initially thought, which came out in December, and it seems like it's around this time that it, like the whole free the Nipple thing really explodes. Yeah, because I've been the most exposed to free the nipple on social media, as confronting Instagram's policies regarding breastfeeding or any kind of female nipple exposure. Facebook, Twitter the same thing, and social media wise, it does seem like images of breastfeeding paved the way for this more general call to free the nipple, because I remember, I mean for a number of years now. Facebook and Instagram have since updated their policies. But when you would have the story go viral about the mom who had a really sweet photo taken of her baby breastfeeding, and she would post it somewhere for everyone to see in comment and like, and then Instagram or Facebook would take it off for being inappropriate, and so that really started a conversation which has since though broadened. Yeah, I mean, if ESCO's name sounds familiar, it could also be because in summer before the movie came out, she actually created a p s A called Everybody who Has Got to Eat in an effort to normalize breastfeeding in public, and it was part of an effort to get Facebook to drop its breast feeding photo ban. And on the Free the Nipple website it does mention breastfeeding. They write the issues where addressing or equal rights for men and women, a more balanced system of censorship, and legal rights for all women to breastfeed in public. It's the very simple idea that women should not be shamed for breastfeeding their kids. And that's certainly nothing new either. I mean, the the ability to breastfeed in public without censure or even worse risk of arrest or fines is something that groups like l League, for instance, have been advocating for since the nineteen fifties, which is wild when you think about how long nipples in public have been, you know, such a hot topic. Yeah, and writing about that hot topic about why breastfeeding might skive some people out. Jamiel Goldenberg and Tommy and Roberts wrote a chapter in the book Handbook of Experimental Existential Psychology that for the nipples secrete milk and our hints reminders of our creaturely mammalian nature. Um, so they're they're basically writing that it creates this taboo in society that like, we're reminded that women's boobs aren't just there for men's sexual pleasure. So nipples freak us out because they're reminders that we're all animals. Is that what's going on? Humans are so weird, Caroline, so weird when I want to just go take a nap. But I mean, it's this, it's this greater conversation about women's bodies and women having control over their own bodies and not being freaking thrown in jail or arrested or penalized for things like breastfeeding or going topless. That's behind Esco and other people's push for the movie because the film's premise, which she says was inspired by true events. They basically follow a group of young women who take to the streets of New York City topless to protest the archaic censorship laws of the United States, and they say that it explores the contradictions in our media dominated society where acts of violence and killing or glorified while images of a woman's body are censored, so trying to point out that people consider nipples almost to be more obscene than bloody, gory killing and case in point, during the filming of Free the Nipple, New York City police threatened to shut down production, so instead of getting permits for the second half of the movie, she shot when she could, and so when the scene called for a topless protest in public, she held an actual topless protest in public because female toplessness in public is legal in New York State and so the cops cannot arrest them. So this is like an endless chain of art imitating life imitating art because the police mistakenly thought that they were walking around topless to be intentionally prurient, right because when people see naked female breast, they think sex. Well, unless there's a baby attached to that breast, and then they think sex. Oh no, wait, that's breastfeeding. Yeah, in which case you should go hide yourself because you're an animal. Yeah, because you're uncomfortable because you might still think sex. But then you're also like, oh no, maternity, Oh no, what are we really animals? Right? And then yeah, and then your your brain exploits. But I do think it's interesting that they are these women are being sort of hassled by the police in New York, whether their protest was for the movie or whether it was an actual protest staged by topless women. Because in a paper that we talked about a lot in our first episode by Rena Glazer about sort of the legal issues surrounding women going topless. Um, there was one particular case where there were some women in New York who, as part of a protest unequal regulations of men's chests versus women's, they went to this kind of secluded New York City park, almost sort of baiting the police to arrest them in any way, to gloss over a whole lot of legal and judicial wrangling. Uh, the legal stuff dragged on for years and years, and on one of the appeals, the court basically said, hey, these women are cool because they were protesting. They're not just like aimlessly topless. They were using their chests as part of speech, almost, and so they were protected under the First Amendment. And meanwhile, the women are tearing their hair out, going, no, we don't want just women who are protesting while topless to be protected. We wanted to be okay for any woman to have her nips out, which is a cause that celebrities have now taken up, and we're going to talk about that when we come right back from a quick break. Well, Kristen mentioned celebrities taking up the mantle of hashtag free the Nipple, and this is another part where Carol gets I rolly because reading about celebrities like Scout and rumor Willis or even Russell Simmons supporting the free the Nipple movement, I almost don't trust it because it seems like they're not really actually that concerned about those bigger issues of women being penalized for breastfeeding in public, or women being penalized unjustly for going topless in states where it's legal. It almost. It's very easy to dismiss celebrity participation in this because it's like, oh, where are you just mad about Instagram? Yeah, Instagram has been ground zero in a lot of ways for free the nipple. Especially the celebrity side of this so called move have meant um because you mentioned Scout Willis, for instance, who in May decided to test the toplessness laws in New York City. Is part of activism and protests. And so she put on a pretty skirt and nothing else and took a walk down the street and took a photo of herself doing so and posted it on Instagram and also Twitter. I believe, basically so that it would get taken down because once you post something on social media and that social media company removes it because of its you know, decency policy, then you have a viral story on your hands. And she was right, So this whole thing blew up, and she said at one point quote matters like the taboo of the nipple. In the twenty one century, public breastfeeding, slut shaming, fat shaming, breast cancer, and wareness, body positivity, general equality and censorship have found their way into mainstream discussion. So with that Caroline. It sounds like Scout does get it. It sounds like she gets it. But there are still plenty of women out there who were saying that putting your boobs out or putting your nips out is not doing feminism right, I mean, there's plenty of critics. Yeah, yes, Kristen is rolling her eyes super hard, and I think it's it is, like I said, it's easy for a lot of people to dismiss the actions of celebrities when they don't trust them to actually be part of the movement. But but like you said, it does sound like I mean, it sounds like Scout get it. I mean doesn't feel sometimes like activism and feminism is being commodified through celebrity culture in these instances. Yes, I had my oh here we go again moment with it all when Chelsea Handler, who I like, Please don't send me letters about how great Chelsea Handler is. I like her. She can be funny at times, um, But when she posted her topless photo of her riding on a horse, very very gallantly on Instagram, of course immediately got a ton of attention. And she said, I mean, the whole contrast slash joke was like putin read posted an identical photo of himself and she was like, well Putin can do this, then why can't I? What's wrong with women's bodies? And at that point, to me being a little bit of a cynic, I suppose it seemed like a media attention grab, but it's also to the same conversation that comes up with empower tizing of using female empowerment and feminist the slogans to sell goods as well. I mean, it's the question of, well, is it such a bad thing that celebrities are hopping on board, because maybe that signals that this is going mainstream right to get people talking about it for sure, and definitely uh the topless child of two really famous actors, I mean, that does get people talking, for sure. And I am glad that what came out of that was a quote like, hey, guys, we've got all of this stuff we need to talk about, and now that you're looking at my boobs, let's hear what I have to say about it too, So like at least that came out of it. And model and actress Kara day Levine joined the conversation as well. She posted a picture although her nipple was exed out. I believe she posted a picture of her naked chest next to a man's naked chest, and they drew a little diagram, which is very helpful. Again if you're a visual learner, I love diagram I love like infographics, but on skin, um drawing around like here's the nipple, here's the areola, here's the breast tissue, and basically saying like this is fine in the world and on social media, and this one over here that belongs to a woman is not. Like, we want equality, We want the same abilities to go topless as anybody else, which led to one of my favorite free the Nipple off shoots, which were these male nipple image pasties of sorts um that someone I forget who it is who made them. That you could if you were a woman and you wanted to post a topless photo of yourself but not haven't taken down from social media, you could simply superimpose these male nipples on top of your female nipples so that the photo would no longer be indecent. Oh yeah, there are blogs out there that have done it on the female nude, like sculptures, paintings from history, you know, very famous works of art. Pasting a male nipple on top of it, like, hey, well this is okay now right, this is fine well, and then on the flip side of that you have orange is the new black Star Matt and mcgory who photoshop nipples of Miley Cyrus and Christie Teagan onto his pecks um And he wrote on the Instagram caption, it's not just about getting an even tan. It's one piece of the puzzle of creating deep change in the way our society objectifies women and creates these different standards for men and women and other genders. Yeah. I mean, Matt McGrory has been super vocal lately about issues relating to women and feminism, and it's really refreshing to see because he also doesn't seem like he's just jumping in and pointing his finger people and being like here's what I think and this is why you should believe it too, and blah blah blah. He seems to be listening just as much as he's joining in conversations. But it is funny that he's literally, I mean, it just highlights it highlights the ridiculousness of all aspects of this that here's a man, an attractive man who takes nipples belonging to ladies and he puts them over his own. Uh, and it's fine because he is still a person with a male body. But Caroline, because this exists on the internet, not everybody loves it. Not everybody want to free the nipple. You mentioned earlier a number of think pieces that have thumbed their nose at the whole thing. Yeah, one was by Chica Dalmia over the Week in June, and she was not having it. She is not having it. She calls the movement ham handed and shocked jockey, which is actually the new nicknames for Kristen and me. It was ham handed. Fine, well now I'll be shocked jockey. All right, here we go, let's read the nips um. But yeah, she says that few real women outside of college campuses can relate to it other than publicity hungry celebrities, so she is a total skeptic. She does not believe that the Willis sisters or any other celebrity could possibly have any good intentions behind this at all. She goes on to say, hey, why not try to eliminate all double standards and do away with all public and decency laws. Hey, why not start a free the balls movement. Well, ladies, you you know, be super comfortable with that, right. You know what. Mark Dupless, by the way, who is the He's in um the League and it is also in uh he created and stars in Togetherness. He and his brother have talked about how there needs to be more testicle equality on film because you know, we see full frontal females all the time, but where those testicles? Yeah, she uh, Dalmia would would totally. She's definitely not in agreement. I think she's definitely like, uh, nobody wants to see balls and so therefore also hydra nipples. Yeah, I don't really want to get on my Instagram fee and see nothing but scrot um. But she also says something um interesting that we we sort of talked around this and about this in our last episode. She says, look, women's breasts are sexual in a way that men's are not. And I am not willing to de sexualize myself. But I think it's interesting that she does again tie breasts completely all the way back to sexuality, not seeming to really leave room for that idea of like I'm just a lady on my front porch not wanting to wear a shirt because it's hot outside. It seems like she's not even okay with that idea. Yeah, I think that perspective removes context out of sexuality and does speak to more of an objectification perspective where we aren't where our bodies aren't part of our collective person, but rather our person is a collection of body parts, whole stack of meat. But there is some critique of Free the Nipple that really has gotten my brain wheels a turn in, and it does have to do with the sexualization of the breast and also the kinds of breasts that we see most prominently in Free the Nipple, And it reminds me a lot of conversations that arose a couple of years ago when slut walks were happening a lot because there are very particular colors at least and sizes too, but largely colors of breasts that we're seeing. They're all for the most part white, all for the most part. Isn't is that too qualifying? All totally incompletely many of them are white. It does seem like a conversation where women of color are marginalized, if not completely invisible. Yeah. Writing over at Bustle, Georgina Jones points out that this is an ego boost for those comfortable enough to participate, essentially a new beauty standard for women to be judged on in the Who's the Best Feminist Olympics. She also says that it's just for women with quote unquote sellable breasts like the ones that are that that type of more quote unquote quantified breasts that are featured on the Free the Nipple shirt itself, like promoting the film. Yeah, I mean, but and I can understand and though why in imagery for that film they would use the more stereotypically sexy boobs because that's the whole point of the thing, is it examining the sexiness factor? Yeah? But Jones laments the fact that sort of this bigger movement that we talked about, especially in our first episode on toplessness, in the legal issues surrounding it. She says that it's been sort of co opted in order to create another impossible beauty standard when the only people we see in this movement are basically white, able bodied, this gendered women, particularly like actresses and upper class women in the media. Well, maybe I've just seen different breasts, but I have seen a diversity size, shape, wise of breasts that have been so called freed through this whole thing. And I understand what Jones is stayinging, But rather than trying to throw dynamite on the whole thing, I think that it's maybe more instructive to consider how our perception of bared breasts perhaps does change when you add layers of disability, or ethnicity or socio economics to this. How does it, you know, how how does sex work interact with all of these things? Like there there isn't an element of privilege to it, But I think that that's caused for maybe more conversation and analysis rather than just stop feminist ng in this way, because I really I think it's unfortunate when things devolve into that often on social media. It's all it's all fueled by social media. Yeah, it's all. Yes, it's blog posts, it's thing pieces, it's hashtags pointing fingers at each other. And so I like, I mean not to just be like and the man is doing it right, But I like Matt mcgory's tactic, for instance, of being like, hey, like, here's this thing I'm going to point out and and and you know, thoughtfully question it um just as other women have done. Um, I think that's a good way to go about it, instead of necessarily pointing fingers and saying stop doing this, because I mean, like we pointed out, Scott Willis was able to get a conversation started, although Caroline, there was an intersection of this topless conversation we've been having and women of color at a protest in May in San Francisco for Black Lives Matter, where women black women were protesting without their shirts on to call attention specifically to uh institutionalized violence toward black women and black women's bodily integrity as well. So, I mean, that's why I think that these conversations are still important to have and not just to say you know what, I don't that's that's not right. But how do we broaden it? I think that we just need to, I mean, just continue removing all of the layers, so to speak, literally, figuratively, conversationally. Yeah. So, I wonder is this the future of protests that women are just taking their shirts off to draw attention to their cause or is it social media? I mean, we talked about social media activism and our Social Justice Warriors podcast, and the fact of the matter is it's effective at the very least at starting conversations, yeah, and helping people to organize around an idea. Yeah. But whether Middle America is anywhere close to seeing a female and nipple and not freaking out a little bit, I think we're a long way from that. But I'm really curious though, too, to hear from international listeners as well, because, um, I know the US isn't the only country that has boob hang ups, So I'd love to get as diverse a perspective on this as as possible, because I do think it's something that is different for everybody and something that everyone has an opinion on because a lot of people have nipples, as it turns out. Yea, So send us all of your free the nipple thoughts. Mom Stuff at house stuff works dot com is our email address. You can also tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast and use the hashtag for the nipple if you like, or messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages to share with you right now. So I have a letter here that does relate to Boob's Caroline and also to wastes. This is from Heather about our episode on a waste training. She writes, high Ladies, I just discovered your podcast. Thanks for a recommendation from a friend. I enjoy it immensely. Keep up the good work. Thank you, Heather. I just listened to your podcast on waste training and I can so relate. For my wedding last year, I bought a corset bra Hey, I'm a double D and had a straplest dress. Girls needed extra support. It had the boning and didn't seem to be that tight on me. Well, then I had my bridesmaids do up my corset back wedding gown really tight and o MG, my boobs and booty looked amazing. But I couldn't eat any of my dinner at the reception. I almost passed out at the ceremony, and when I finally took it off for the night, my rib cage was so so so sore and t m I. I ended up being constipated the whole night from it. The only way I could relieve the horrific stomach cramps I was getting was to apply pressure to my abdomen. It was not worth the pain. So, Heather, I'm so sorry to hear that, but cautionary tail, especially on your wedding day. I want to be able to eat my cake. I want to have my cake and eat it too. Yeah, wedding stretchy pants. There we go. There we go, solving all the problems and at leisurely wedding. Okay, well, I have a letter here from Caitlin Um, also about our Waiste training episode. She says, I just tried using a corset for the first time as part of my postpartum regime, and I thought i'd share my experience with you. I decided to dry using a corset for two reasons. After I had my first child, I felt so weak in my core for the first week or two after birth. It seemed impossible to stand up straight. I thought, of course, it might provide me with some core support until I actually had my own core muscles back in working order again. Additionally, I thought the course it would help my post pregnancy pucci belly disappear faster. I actually asked my O B g U I N about it, thinking he wouldn't have any objections, and was surprised when he did. While he thought it wouldn't be problematic if I were it for a few weeks, he was concerned that if I were it for a long period of time. It wouldn't allow my core muscles to recover and do the job they're meant to do, which is one of the ideas you mentioned in the podcast. Despite my doctor's lack of enthusiasm, I bought one. It was a little hard to decide what to buy because there are a bunch of different brands and types. I settled on a model that had boning and several rows of hooks and eyes that allow you to continually cinch the thing tighter and tighter. It wasn't cheap, around eighty five bucks. I started using it for two days after I gave birth, and more at daily for six to eight hours a day for roughly two weeks. It was less uncomfortable than I feared, but there were a few problems that finally led me to abandon it more quickly than I had anticipated. First, it's hot, especially in Hawaii in the middle of the summer. Plus it was too long for my torso so it would dig in under my breast or into my thighs when I sat down, not comfortable, especially when breastfeeding. Finally, it was a pain trying to use the bathroom while wearing it, and this is particularly true since I was dealing with post birth lady issues in the bathroom. However, I swear that it did help my belly shrink faster than it would have without it, and it helped me non maternity clothes right away, which was nice considering I was so sick of all my maternity clothes by then, and it was no small thing to hear, Wow, you just had a baby. You look great when I was out wearing it. Even though it wasn't perfect, I would and have still recommend it for new moms. The only thing I would do differently is order a few different options and try them on in order to find the one that fit better. I think I would have worn it longer if it had. Looking forward to your next episode, your sides and banter with each other always make me L O L literally well, Thank you, Caitlin, and thanks to everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot Com is our email address and for links to all of our social media as well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcast, including this one with our sources so you can learn more about bringing the nipple head on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics. Does it, how stuff works, dot com