“We, the left, have messed up,” said Yanis Varoufakis, the former Greek finance minister who came to fame negotiating on behalf of the Greek government during the country’s 2015 debt crisis. “We’ve tried, we’ve been tested and we failed our test.”
Varoufakis joins this week’s Voternomics podcast, in which hosts Allegra Stratton, Stephanie Flanders and Adrian Wooldridge take a closer look at the rise of far-right populism in Europe and the retreat of left-wing progressivism. Francesco Giubilei, author of The History of European Conservative Thought and president of the conservative foundation Fondazione Tatarella, also joins this week’s episode to discuss the success of Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni.
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Welcome to another Voter Nomics where politics and markets collide. This year, voters around the world have the ability to turn markets, countries and economies like never before, so we've created this series to help you make sense of it all. I'm Stephanie Flanders.
I made Frim Wildridge, and I'm Alegristratgy and on this episode we thought we would take a closer look at the rise of right wing populism in Europe and we have obviously had our own variety of that on show at the start of this week with the release of the Reform Party's contract not manifesto with the UK, but Nigel Faraj has spoken about wanting to be prime Minister after the next election.
George of Maloney is already Prime Minister of Italy and she was on show this weekend hosting her counterparts at the g seventh summit in Pulia, and it was pretty evident that she was the only leader with a spring in her step and a favorable poll rating, so we wanted to hear about the secrets of her success and the lessons for mainstream and maybe also less mainstream conservative parties in the UK from one of her fans, Francesco Jubilee, the president of the leading Italian conservative foundation, Fondatzioni Tartarella. He's also the author of the History of European conservative thought. And then we're going to hear a completely different perspective from Janis Fara Facis, who of course you will know as the former Finance Minister of Greece, motorbike owner and author of several international best selling books, including recently Techno Feudalism What Killed Capitalism. So, Adrian Alegre, it does feel like a week to be thinking about the rise of the right in Europe. We can see also in this election that Macrants called in France, obviously a big focus on Marine Le Penn's Class Envelementale party formerly the National Front. I want to understand it, but I also want to think about lessons, as I said, for everybody in the UK.
Yeah. One of the.
Striking things about the writers that these are nationalist movements and the things that they hate most of all are the sort of the global devils, elites, and yet in some ways they are in themselves international. They learn from each other, they imitate each other, And I was just thinking of Farage who has launched his contract this morning contract with you, and that's directly taken from New Gingrich. You know, we don't have that in British politics. We have manifestos. You know, Peel launched the whole thing with the Tom Tamworth manifesto. Now we have somebody using the language of a contractarian society like the United States. And you know, his own political party is really a political party. It's a private company which treats him as a star, not as a party leader, but as a star with lots and lots of followers, which is exactly the politics that you see with Trump, but also with a lot of European populist leaders. So it's a strange mixture of nationalism and internationalism that we're seeing.
But Adrian he's leading a revolt, you know, he's making a play of that. Isn't He's not a manifesto because that would be too vanilla, wouldn't that?
Yeah, I suppose so. But they're all in some sense leading revolts. But in a lot of Europe now they're moving from being a party of revolt to being a party of government. And you see that with the French in particular.
And This is what I think is interesting because although they are all considered themselves to be in the same family to some extent, although actually recently none of them have got on very well with the alternative. For Deutschlan Yes Party, he's considered to be beyond the pale, even in far right circles. But I think Georgia Maloney's leadership her time in government has been very interesting in the way that she's been willing to compromise, willing to have very mainstream views and policies on Ukraine on quite a lot of economic things, and I thought it was very striking these statements that nobody really cares about except the people drafting them. But they have this communic case from the G seven, and the only disagreement of all the things they'd agreed on this very important package for Ukraine and other things, was around the restatement of support for reproductive rights and safe and legal abortion from last year's communicate, And I thought it was interesting that the one thing she was actually sort of playing ball and to all intentsive purposes being a mainstream leader when it came to many of these important European issues, But on that core cultural ground she still had to mark out a more traditional and more in some ways it was more to her base.
Absolutely well. We tend to talk about the far rights and the right, but there are very important in terms divisions. There's a division between the pro pro Putin people and the anti Puotin people, and there's a division over sort of responsible economic policy as well, and I think probably some fundamental cultural divisions. If you look at the far right in the Netherlands, for example, it's very pro gay rights because it's basic critique.
But in some ways this is a topsy turvy conversation because actually if you look at Maloney and her international allies, you would say Ishi Sunac, you know, is her intellectual bedfellow, because.
They do seem to get on quite well.
And her and her Albania plan, which looks like some European politicians are falling behind, which is, you know, the idea of having the immigrants processed off shore is partly inspired by Rwanda. So there's a kind of topsy turviness because you know, her mate, Rishi Sunac, he was doing so badly in the opinion polls, potentially is leaving government. But actually some of the ideas he's espoused in government are those in the ascendant.
That shows again, I mean it's immigration as this absolutely core driving force for some of this. But there has been a question about whether Kiss Darmer will have anyone to talk to at these summits. He will be the exception if we see all of these sort of mainstream centrists and right leaders go in the next few years.
That's the other topsy turbinus that Britain is completely out of sync with Europe and may well be out of sync with the United States as well. We may be the one surviving area for liberal Democrats to look at.
What Kiss Darmer's foreign affairs spokesperson David Lammy is saying, you know, regarding Trump, you know and others you know, they are they are cognizant that they are going to have to work with everybody.
Yes, Lammi is somewhat changed his tune on Trump.
I think well, I suspect. I think I have a feeling partly from looking at our outlines for future weeks. I think we'll be getting on incoming incoming days. So we should move to our conversation with Francisco Jubile, the president of the Italian Conservative Foundation Fondazioni Tartarella. Francesca, thank you so much for joining us. We are fascinated looking at Georgia Moloni at the recent g seventh summit and obviously in previous months, really comfortable in her position as Prime Minister of Italy and successful both domestically, and it seems at these international summits. So I guess the obvious question is what's the secret of her success?
I think that Georgia Meloni is becoming here by here an important leader not only for Italy, not only for our country, and not only for the Italian conservative right, but also for the European Lensks, especially after the result of the European elections, because we saw that the result of the President of.
France, Emanuel Macron was not a good result.
In fact, the result of Simble More National and Marie lepen was quite good, and the same is for all of Schortz, the leader of Germany. And in the case of Italy, Georgia Meloney had a really important result, not only as the leader of Fertality Italian, the main Italian center right party, but also for all the Italian government. And after that we are entering in a new phase for the European Union right now there are some important discussion for the president of the European Commission and the Georgia Meronic can play an important role as Prime Minister of Italy, but also as the president of the.
E CR and the leader of the main Itally party.
I guess one thing we should sort of understand is whether we're even describing her in the right way. You know, we talk about far right, and when she came to power, we were very focused on her origins. But I wonder whether she represents something different that's not a traditional kind of conservatism or certainly traditional far right.
Yeah, that is quite an important point. Usually when someone especially abroad, but not only abroad, sometimes also in our country, want to describe or sometimes attack Georgia Miloney or in general some politicians that are part of the Italian right, they describe them as a neo fascist or some people that are linked with some fascist idea, and I think this is not correct and this is not the correct way to try to understand what is happening in our country. The truth is that the right that is represented by Georgia Meloni is a conservative right. When I use the word conservative is quite important to make an extinction between the Latin conservatism and the Italian conservatism and the American and English conservatism, because there are some important difference, for example, on the economic issues. Our conservatism is more focused on welfare state, for example, and the British and the American conservatism is more focused, for example, on some classical liberals ideas. So there are some difference, of course, but in general, the correct way to try to understand the why George Meloni is becoming so important and so voted in our country is because she's trying also to talk with the lower class.
That in the past voted for the left. But right now, if we saw also the result in the main city, for example, in the city center of Roma, or the people vote for the left. If we we go to.
For example, some difficult areas of the of Roma, we see that in this part of the city the people decide to vote.
For for Formeloni, and this is quite interesting.
So I think that it's important to try to analyze in a deeper way what is the success of JN.
Maloney.
I don't know how much of following British politics, but who would you put Georgia Maloney closer to Brittie Sunac, who's obviously a friend of hers, or Nigel Farah, she leads the Reform Party.
I think definitely that she's closer to the Conservative Party, the Tories, and to Sunak then to Farajef. There are many points in common between Miloni and the Sunaco or in general Miloni and the Conservative Party. But how I say to you before, there are also some difference because of course, to be conservative in Italy is different than being a conservative in the UK, because our conservatism is quite link for example, with the Catholic traditions. So when we talk about the ethic themes, for example, in our conservatism is quite close with the vision of the Catholic Church, and this is a big difference with the Tories. But in the same time, when we talk about Parage, I think in Italy we use a word there is not a translation in English. The word is Soverignismo, is meaning probably national populism or something like that. And when we talk about Farage we can talk more than a conservative leader. We can talk about a national populist leader. So I think that Menoni is definitely closer to the Conservative Party.
You talked about her ability to reach beyond the sort of metropolitan elites who live in the middle of Romee two ordinary people. How can she do that? What are the things that bind the conservative leadership to the working class voter.
In the bigger city or in the city center of the bigger city, and the people vote for the left or the center or left. When we go to the neighborhood that are more close to some problems, for example with the security, with the migration, the people decided to vote for some a conservative party, and the same is for example in some smaller city in our country, people decided to prefer and to vote for Georgia Maloney and to vote for the center right a coalition because they feel that the answers that Georgia Maloney give for example with the migration problem, for example, on economic issues, for example, on the European Union issues.
There is a big debate in our country about.
The green police made by the European Union, especially for the decision to stop in the engine motors in two thousand and thirty five, and because of that the people decide to vote for gentlemen only because also the lower class think that the answers that the Conservatives and the right gave to their problem.
Right now is closer to them than.
The left, So liberalism is becoming an elite project. It's captured by the rich.
I make you an example. I live in Roma.
Roma is probably the bigger capital in the European Union or in European general, with the worst public transportation because unfortunately the underground in Rome is not working as well. And every time that they are trying to do some new projects, they discover some ancient Roman ruins, so it's quite difficult to build a bigger underground. And in Roma there is a left. This measure, and the idea of the measure was to create a bigger zone in which the car couldn't hunterer and this of course creates some problem not to the rich people which lived in the center of the city and they can move walking or by taxi or by scooter, but this creates some big problem for the poor people which live in some area not near the city center, and they must take their car to go to work, and of course they are angry against the measure because of that.
It is interesting that there's a similar kind of issue in the UK around twenty miles per hour limits, which is a popular campaigning force for many in our election Francisco.
Where does this end?
Because is that the question? So where does this end?
In that Georgie Maloney looks like her deficit has gone up to seven point two percent.
You'll correct me if I'm wrong.
So you you've very lucidly outlined how pro welfare spending she is, and that's clearly important to her coalition of voters. Can she afford to keep on being ultra popular?
You mean about economy or you mean in general economy?
Yeah, under the procedures, you know, the fiscal rules for the European Union, they could well have to do. She should could have to do some very tough things which in the past have overturned Italian governments on a very regular basis.
This is quite an important point. I mean, our economy is a good economy. We have the third economy of European Union. We have a private incomes that is quite good. Most of the Italians they own their house. We have quite a strong bank system. So our economy is a good economy. But our private economy is economy. Our problem is the public economy.
And when we.
Talk about the public economy, we talk about the state which have a really hiked the public debt, and the problem of our public debt is that the people, the Italians and also the politician think about our public debuta as something that is of no one. In reality, the public debt is a debt of everyone. The bigger problem of our country compared to the high debty, is the lower the possibility of growth of our economy. If we we do in a comparasion between a high public debt and the low growth of our economy, this can create some problem. But I have to say this is not a problem of Meloni. This is the problem of everyone, which.
We leave with respect. Though it's going to be her problem. I mean, will that mark the end of her honeymoon with the voters when she actually has to make the same tough decisions about this to manage this big stock of debt that every government in Italy has had to deal with for the last twenty or thirty years, and has actually managed to, you know, just about prevent from spiraling out of control. Has stepped back from the BIS quite a few times, each time by making very tough decisions that she has sofa been quite reluctant to make.
Yes, I think that luckily the most the toughest decisions were made ten years ago, especially in twenty eleven after Monty government. It was a technical government and he made many tough decisions. So right now the public debty is really height but it's more or less under control. Of course, the COVID period didn't help us and didn't help everyone. So I think that Meloney she knows and she understands that she doesn't have the opportunity of doing many economic measures that are really in fervor in helping the in the Italians, for example, cut the taxation.
But if she she.
Won't, for example, introduced new taxation, this can be something good for example, and I think that she will manage in Hinita and the economy is of course quite an important issue, but there are other issues that are important for the Italian electorate. For example, the migrant crisis is the topic that is quite important, especially in the south, in the south of Italy foreign politics, and I think that Menoni is managed quite well on this topic. And of course she also has to manage in the European Union contest, where also the economic situation of Germany, that is the main economy of European Union, is becoming world compared to three years ago.
Francisco to Bila. I'll be very interested to see her next few budgets, how she manages to square the circle. But in the meantime, and then we'll have you back. But in the meantime, thank you very much for joining us.
Thank you, it was a pleasure.
And now, as they say, for something completely different. Janasparafukis Greece's Finance minister for six months in twenty fifteen, negotiating on behalf of the Greek government during the Greek debt crisis, who has also been secretary general of the Democracy in Europe Movement twenty twenty five, a left wing pan European political party he co founded in twenty sixteen. Janisparafuck is very good to have you physically in the studio. Thanks for joining us on Vota Nomics.
It's a great pleasure.
We've got lots of things to talk to you about, but we are focusing on this program on the rise of the populist right in Europe. I guess you know. One obvious question is why he is right wing populism so much more successful than left wing populism at the moment.
Because it's authentic. I don't believe you can be left wing and the populist, because my definition of populism, whoor anderstand populism is to be all things to all people, make ausers of promises and then jump on a soapbox and being jingoistic and call upon people to trust you to make things great again and dot dot I won't go on, but that if you do that, then you're not the left winger in my view, You're not a humanist, you're not facing the truth, and you use up the people's vote against the people. So this is a kind of contest I have with other leftists would disagree with me. The two words left and popularism, you put them together, you end up with an incongruity. And so you know, when the left tries populism, it becomes ridiculous. When the right become populist and become fascist, and they are very successful as we have seen during the Middle War period the left, and that of course is the end of the left when the left, the.
Left are too honest to be populists.
The left should be honest and therefore should avoid populism in its pursuit of.
Popular With the populist approach, even by your definition, we have parties that are offering a lot to all people, particularly working people, who feel they've been left out, excluded from the direction that modern economies have gone. If what's being promised by your description is not possible or not possible without a lot of other difficult sacrifices, does that mean you think these these leaders are going to eventually come to grips, have to sort of face reality and become a cropper. Where do you see this going? Because they had doing very well with the brand of populism that we've been hearing.
This is a brilliant question. I think it all depends on how many levers they have access to. So compare and contrast Georgia Mloney with Victor Roban. Because Allban is not in the Europe, he has more leavers to pull, so he troubled the minimum wage. He did was also lilily did. In other words, he looked after the working class. But it was a fasting bargain in the sense that I will look after you. You keep your mouth shut authoritarianism, You make me great again, so that I make Hungary great again. We turn against the foreigners, the Jews, the Muslims, at them the other It doesn't matter, so he had more degrees with him to do that. Georgie Milan doesn't because she's in the Euros. She has an unsustainable public debt, she has a banking system which is ricketty, So she simply follows Maria Dragi's policies, no difference to married Drage with weaponized misanthropy when it comes to migrants, foreigners, lesbian's, gays, you know, Walke and all that. But her days are numbered as a populist, as a right wing neo fascist populist, because she doesn't have the livers. She cannot look after the people the way that she's been promising them. If anything she's doing, you know, taking away protections that have been there from the previous governments.
Well days might be numbered as representing a far right populist position, but as as a different kind of right wing but sort of normalized leaders could have.
Quite yes, if he becomes a Bolusconi, who is somebody on the center left who again is misogynist, racist and so on. So a little bit of Trump, but with Mario drag economics new liberal economics. The mi great fear is that we are now seeing in Europe because of a fragmentation of the European Union, the single market, the politics this European Union parliament is is going to be completely incapable of effectively exercising any parliamentary process. My fear is that you're going to have a right wing, neo fascist populist right that manages to ditch austerity, to ditch the new liberal agenda, completely, erect new borders, erect new tariffs, and you know, channel a lot of money into armaments, which may have an economy impact, but the most important impact will be the coalescence with nationalism, and that could be successful, and if that happens, Europe is simply not going to be a place that will want to live in.
Is a key potential part of this the French election, because if you look at Marine Le penn currently they do have a very old collection of policies, but very leftist economic policies.
The don't call fascism leftism.
But if you look at her economic policies.
That's also Leni was a socialist and then he became a fascist. And what was the deal I will protect you introduced the first pension system in continental Europe, universal one. He increased wages and then he clamped down on trade unions, he climbed down a democratic processes and effectively started the process that led to the Second World War together with his friend Hitler. I call this fascist. This is the definition.
What do you think about the significance of the French election? I mean, where does that? Where does where does that fit into the kind of that darker vision that you just painted.
Well, let's let me try to lighten up the mood. I hope, I hope that Macron's strategy, even though I'm completely opposed to everything he's been doing in the last few years, but I hope his strategy of bringing him bringing them into essentially government through cohabitation. He's trying to do what Shirak did with Spend, what Mitterrand did with Iraq, effectingly to defunct them by making them less popular through allowing them to occupy ministries. How that works, but I feel it might not. I'm very worried that they may actually succeed because, let's face it, the finance, the public fire answers for France, just like Italy is and the public finances of Germany for that matter, are not consistent with the fiscal rules. So something we'll have to give Now if Bardella together with le Pen with the collapse of.
His young the young leader, he might be the prime minister.
Who's my nightmare personally, because under the two Lapins, at least they were not that palatable to the young. Now this is a guy who is quite photogenic, he has style quality, he's young, he comes from a working class area, he speaks well. He doesn't look like a fascist, even though he is. That's why he's my nightmare, because he's affect You.
Mentioned the young. One of the striking things about right wing thought or right wing movements on the continent rather than in Britain, is how popular they are with younger people and how they're able to attract quite as you say, photogenic and dynamic young politicians. Why is that because with the left failed.
This is the fault of the left. Let's face it. The worst thing that can happen to democracy is to have fascist presenting the anti systemic trend. Twenty fifteen, we get elected on an anti austerity program. I personally had proposals for the IMF and the European Center blank, which I thought were very sensible in terms of dead swaps and nothing very radical, together with an anti asterity program, and we said that we will be elected and we will not budge. We are not getting taken other credit card, other conditions that are completely financially unsustainable, and you don't have to be left to agree with that. And we buckled. And then our own government after I left, I have to say that, but who cares about me? Our own government practiced the worst kind of a stity, the worst kind of over taxing small business, everyone in a as if in a part of a plan to make the place unviable. And then then is the domino effect, because the left wing in Spain po Demos collapse as a result of not wanting to be you know, cities are number two the linking. In Germany, the French left collapses, and what is left the populist right, which I call neo fascists, being the only ones that are out there suggesting something different. I mean, whether you're here in Britain today with Suna and Starma, or whether you are looking at the policies of the ESPEE, all of Shults and Merge, the differences between them are tiny. And it's not as if Europe is flourishing. Europe has had a fifteen year dearth of investment. That's why we're following behind the Chinese. We have not invested in modern technologies, any kind of modern technology for fifteen to twenty years in Europe. So this discontent. Who is going to pick up up the votes from that discontent? The only anti systemic forces we of the left have gone to ground. We try to bend over backwards to accommodate the new liberal policies. I remember telling Shoubler once, I said, look, I know you don't like seeing me in front of you, because.
If the German finance minister.
Yeah, because you know I'm a lefty, but you know what we're europeanis and we're Democrats, and if you squash the living daylights out of our people, you know, to get rid of us, you're going to end up with fascists on the other side of the table. And I think that was right.
But kase Armer is of the left.
He's very close.
This is what I want, which I find preposterous.
Right, Ok, he's not of the left.
That's all a bad thing. I mean, I'm not there to tell it that. You know, believe that everybody should be from the left, But I just don't agree that he's from the left.
Okay, all right, that's clear. Let's look at immigration where he is trying to forge another path where he's saying obviously he's not going to renew freedom of movement and so on, but he is saying that they will negotiate returns agreements with the continent. What is We've heard from another guest earlier in the program, and you've threaded through everything you've said, this kind of immigration seems to be the stimulus for some of the rise of these parties. What would be the other way to deal with the worries about immigration that so many electorates around Europe are clearly feeling.
How about ditching a racism light because this is what Kirstarmy is doing. Personally, I don't know here. Personally, I suspect he and I would agree on immigration being a blessing not a curse. Europe is getting old. For a thousand years, we've been populating the rest of the earth. We've been migrating everywhere, sometimes with guns and you know, white settlers. So suddenly we have a problem with immigration. What has happened is that demographics have changed. We're getting all people are coming towards US, and that should have been fine if we had a migration policy. Kirstama, however, being a relatively spineless politician, is not going to stand up to the parajes and to the sonic sent to the braver Mans and say, you know what, we need immigration and we're going to create a policy which is simultaneously financial in the economically viable and humane and consistent with international law. He's not saying that, so he's trying to what happened, just like a steadicy light.
Play that back though. I mean, one of the things you just argued was if you don't give a key chunk of the electorate something at the table, if you force austerity down their throats, then you're going to get something worse down the road. I mean, you could make exactly the same argument about keeping immigration off the agenda for many years as sort of a coalition of the right and left mainstream across Europe, not just the UK. If you don't let people have a view or even discuss the scale the direction of immigration, you end up with something worse. And if you're a Democrat, you have to accept that there are people who feel that people don't feel the same way they see the economic benefit. Maybe they may also see it as an economic cost to them if it affects if it pushes down their wages. But they also see a cultural consequence which many people are uncomfortable with.
There must be a differential economic impact of immigration as well, doesn't it. It's poorer people and benefit in many ways richer people.
Of course if you practice astadity, lots of people in But let me ask you a question, because because I think you're perfectly right, I don't believe in keeping important issues like this off the table. I believing in a vigorous debate.
But to engage in that conversation you're actually saying is racism?
Like no, no, not at all.
Well that is what I think. That's what the lidbody would say. They're part of the conversation.
No, I don't think it's engaging with the conversation when they effectively say that we will manage to find a way of limiting immigration which is more efficient than the Tories if you really want to engage. And here's I'm coming to your question too. Look, I remember I was in Doncaster during the Brexit campaign. I was campaigning against Brexit. As somebody who is not really a narmor of the U confusing people. And I remember there was you know, there was this wonderful older woman who came to me and said, Yannis, she wanted to engage in it's custo about immigration. As you say, I am not a racist im internationalism. I left Winger. But you know, my building is now full of Romanian boys who live for in one room and they can afford because there are four boys to bid runts up and we cannot afford to compete with them. And then I asked her question. I said, so tell me the story of this building. It used to be a council house. It was sold off to the private sector. So the problem is not the Romanian boys, is that these councilor houses were sold. Now they're part of a rent maximizing a reenteer frenzy, and council houses have not been built to replace the old stock of council house. So if you really want as a labor party, as a progressive, to engage with people, you have to take very seriously what this woman said about the fact that now she has a building full of Romanian boys, which actually she actually liked, so she was not even a racist to call her a racist is just preposterous. It's a totally unacceptable It's like Hillary Clinton calling Trump's supporters deplorables. No, you have to engage and you have to explain that, you know what, that was a mistake. Now we need to build, you know, council housing. The solution is not to get rid of the Romanians. This is going to make Doncaster even poorer and center. That is the kind of debate I would like to see the Labor Party engage in.
The Labor Party would claim that it is in favor of activist government. It's going to have a national energy company that it's going to have a national investment scheme that is going to be much more and.
Have a big expansion in a hay building.
Indeed, money come from nothing there.
Do you think there's nothing there from the Labor Party that's intentions?
But you know how many comments? So I read stuff. I have this bad habit and I read very carefully both the manifesto of the twenty twenty four manifesto and what instead of fiscal studies said, And what I see is a steadity baked in. I don't see the money coming in anywhere. They're going to have to affect cuts, and they will affect cuts that are brutal in areas that will be very helpful to the most to the weakest of people.
What should the left be learning from the last few years in Europe and particularly when you look at, say, for example, the European elections.
My nightmare is that because we have messed up with the left, have messed up that now the coalescence between the most rabbit and Australian and trumpest aspects or segments of the old Tory Party in this country, but also in France, in German and so we will go into bed with any of Ussists and with the Left are irrelevant because we've been tried, We've been tested, and we failed our tests. And we are ourselves recoiling into identity politics, into fighting one another as to how do you define a woman? Which is a very interesting philosophical topic. But the fascists love it when we recoil in that manner into identity politics. That is my nightmare. So the one thing I'm trying to do as a Left is to dem to divide a democracy Urope. Moving across Europe. You know, we have a small, small movement, but we are held a little bit in influential amongst the left. Is to ask the big questions again, you know, how do you combine combine investment with social policies, how do you break down that alliance between austerelity and and racism and hatred of the other, of the foreigner. What do we do about Europe turning into a war union? With the idiotic concept that since the Green Deal failed, we are gained now to develop through spending on arms and developing a military industrial complex in Europe, which we never will. But you know, we need to tackle these things. We need to take a break, be self critical, and as you said before.
I think you're going to get a break at least in many parts of Europe.
We are already having a break. But we must not go into self referential you know, identity politics becoming irrelevant with glee.
Thank you very much.
Well, thank you.
So that was That's quite a lot.
Of meat, definitely outspoken and some very interesting analysis. Not my politics, but some of the analysis I think holds true whatever your politics are.
Well, the idea that the left is going to be almost sort of bringing its hands on the sidelines for quite a long time and somewhat irrelevant certainly in Europe. Question mark about the UK because it depends who you consider to be left.
But it's complicated if you think about the last election, twenty nineteen election where Jeremy Corbyn's manifesto did very well. So actually lots of this is twenty nineteen.
Well yeah, no, everything Well, there was that point about the individual policies in it were individually popular, but labeling it labor and saying you were going to do it all together was not a credible propositions along with Corbyn.
And that's one of the complexities about and you say that, you heard it a little bit with Francesco around Actually in Italy, her politics is grounded in what appeals to the lower class and so on. I hate the phrase lower class, but he used it, so we have to use it the less well off. That plus twenty nineteen Corbyn's manifesto doing quite well, and then also a little bit further back than that, but actually some of the Theresa May manifesto was not a million miles away from it either in terms of you know, have to reach out and appeal to the people who feel they've been left behind by globalization.
Well and That's why I think it's going to be this key question about how do these sort of these outside forces far right, however you describe them, when they're in government, how do they govern? Do they, as he claims, end up or at least as he fears, end up going down a profoundly kind of authoritarian even anti European Union sort of divisive road, or as looked a bit what Georgia Maloney has been doing, do they more become a different face of the right, saying things that we don't necessarily agree with on cultural issues, but fundamentally not challenging the fundamental the institutions of Europe.
The fundamental problem is that centrist liberalism has become a philosophy of the elites, of the ruling classes of people who are doing quite well out of globalization, has quite well out of the status quo. And if that's the case, you find it very very difficult to win elections, if not impossible. So liberalism, centrist liberalism, which I think everybody in this room would subscribe to, needs to find a way of reconnecting with poorer people. The best way, of course, is to improve the economy, raised productivity, show that you can actually get richer. But I think it also needs to be done on certain cultural issues, on the issue of nationalism versus globalism and things like that. And personally I believe in terms of taking back control of immigration.
I can't believe I'm trying to find reasons to make Joannis Farafut focus feel less bad. But I think the other thing I think we have learned from recent politics is that things might look, you know, for a particular bit of the political spectrum or the one, and they flip very quickly. And it's the volatility and the fact that trends are coming. You know, everything is shortened and trends come and go so quickly.
It wasn't that long ago to die. And perhaps you were writing articles about why is it that the Conservatives are the most powerful and successful party in human history?
But that the thing, the longer you're in power, the more likely you're going to be destroyed. Reached a very sticky conclusion. All right, Well, I feel like we had something of a seminar on European political thoughts this week. Who knows what we'll do next week, but Allegra and Adrian, thank you very much, thanks for listening to this week's Potonomics with Bloomberg. This episode was hosted by Me Stephanie Flanders with Adrian Woldridge and Allegra Stratton. Produced by Summer Sadi with booking support from Chris martloom Additional editing and sound designed by Moses and dam Brendan Francis Noonan is our executive producer. Stage Bowman is head of Bloomberg Podcast, with special thanks to Francesco Jubilet, Jannies, Baro Fakis and Qiarra Albinici. Do subscribe, rate, and review this show, especially if you like it wherever you listen to podcasts, and tell all your friends