Brought to you by Bank of America. Merrill Lynch Seeing what others have seen, but uncovering what others may not. Global Research that helps you harness disruption voted top Global research from five years running. Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner, and Smith Incorporated. When I got out and I had access to the Internet of the cannabis, tarted to realize that there were all these other ways, like all the all these other points at which race can play roles, such as you know, rebounding from something like this. Um. You know, there's there's some data I've read that that white people with a record are more likely to get hired than black people with that one, and you know that that's kind of shocking. Hello, and welcome back to Bloomberg Benchmark Show about the global economy. I'm Scott Landman, an economics editor with Bloomberg News in Washington, and I'm Keith Smith, an editor with Bloomberg here in New York. All right, well, if you're looking for a break from this post election madness, you've come to the right place. Today on Benchmark, we're turning our attention to an often overlooked corner of the U. S economy. Our prison population. So here are some numbers that we found really interesting. The US accounts for one fifth of the world's prisoners, even though the nation only has of the world's population. That's right, the US has two point two million people in prison, and that's more people than China actually has in prison, and China has a population that's four times bigger than the United States. All told, the US imprisons almost one per cent of its population. That excludes other forms of detention, but it's still, you know, pretty high number. And it's actually the highest proportion in the world when you look at the share of the population that's in jail. So here a Bloomberg. We obviously love superlatives. So hearing highest proportion, that got us thinking two questions, are there too many people in jail? And is that very fact? You know? The extension in that we make it tough for x cons to get back to jobs, is holding back economic growth? Well, joining us today to explore the issue as a woman in her early thirties who was intimately familiar with what it's like to go to prison and what it's like to rejoin the workforce afterwards. Carry Blakinger was a senior at Cornell, the Ivy League university in upstate New York, when she was busted six years ago for heroin possession six ounces to be precise. Kerry pleaded guilty to criminal possession of a controlled substance Class B felony and served twenty one months in prison out of a two and a half year sentence. She did most of her time at Albion, a medium security facility for women in upstate New York. Following her release in September, Carry managed to get reinstated at Cornell, graduated with a degree in English in December, and got herself a job at the Ithaca Times. She since moved on to the New York Daily News and more recently moved to Texas, where she's now working as a general assignment reporter at the Houston Chronicle. She's on the phone with us now from Houston. Carry, thank you so much for joining us today. Hi, thanks for having me. Carry. Let's get one thing out of the way, something you've been open about discussing. You're white. How much did your race play in your ability to rebound from prison, earn your degree and get a job in the industry of your choosing? Well, you know, I think that, Uh it obviously it played a huge role, but uh, it's really difficult to point to an exact moment and say, oh, this happened because I was white. Uh. It's something that I sort of gradually realized in looking at data that there are um a lot of indications that statistically this rebound would have been less likely if I were a minority. Um. I think that before going to prison, I hadn't really thought a lot about the racial disparities in the criminal justice system. Like I sort of I knew that they existed, as I think everyone does, but it didn't really hit home until I was actually seen it in front of me. Uh. And and even then it was not immediately apparent because in the county that I got arrested in, it's so over overwhelmingly white that the county jail is also overwhelmingly white. It's uh. In Thompton County, which is where it is, the county jail is somewhere around twentysomething present black, which is much lower than most other incarcerated populations. But that's because the town is only about five percent block. So it wasn't until I went to state prison. Um after about ten months that I that I was seeing, you know, around half of the population was black, and um, you know, and that is that makes it much more obvious. That sort of drives home these statistics that you might read about, um, you know, I mean when you hear people's stories and you realize why they're there and the differences in what sort of crimes lands people in prison. So you know this this was sort of gradual realization for me. And then when I got out, uh and I had access to the internet the cannon, I started to realize that there were all these other ways, like all the all these other points at which race can play roles, such as you know, rebounding from something like this. Um, you know, there's there's some data I've read that, uh that white people with a record are more likely to get hired than black people with that one, and you know that that's kind of shocking. I certainly can't look back at anyone's job and say, oh, I I would not have gotten hired if I were a minority in this job. But I know that overall, statistically it's true. And I think that that's something that sometimes people struggle with when they, you know, they'll ask me, well, at what point did this play a role? And I sort of can't point to any one thing and say definitively race with the factor here, but I can say that, you know, there's all these different points at which is really likely that it played a role, and it's you know, statistically looking at the data, is it looks like it's likely played a role. If I can jump in, Um, one thing, I you know, kind of as you're talking, I thought was a little bit interesting. So obviously you know the word fell in. You know, it carries a start, as you know, a certain stigma, but in reality it's an umbrella term for you know, a host of different things, you know, ranging from you know, kind of what happened with you, but then you know some much much more like violent crimes. Um, why does society attach so much stigma to felons given that you know kind of the breadth of those crimes and some are just so much worse than others. I mean, is this failure to properly rehabilitate people holding back society and the economy. Well, to answer your your first question, I think that, uh, one of the reason people attached to speaking of sounds is because a lot of people think of silence as rapists and murderers, and it's actually, you know, as you said, a much broader class. I mean, this can include drunk driving charges, even in situations where no one's actually been injured. UM. Not to minimize the severity of drunk driving, but I'm just saying I think that's not what a lot of people think of when they think of a felon UM. So I think that that's part of the reason why there's this stigma, because people sort of just assume this means murderers and rapists, you know, and and also you know, Sony's don't go away in most states. In some states there are options to ex fund or steal your record. UM. But something that's twenty years old can have just as much impact on your ability to get a job as something that's five years old. It really just depends on how employers ask, how they ask about it, and how they choose to take time to account. If I can ask you a personal question, Carrie, when you were looking at jobs after um, your experience in prison, how did you handle that question? So, my my first job at the at the Times, it was not a question. Everything you knew. It was a small town like there's no chance i'd he was unaware. Um, so, uh, you know, it's it's a small, very liberal town, and um, you know this was just sort of h it was a nice little homie paper and a nice community, so it was not as likely to affect me there in that job. Okay, but that's then moving up to the other one the other places, right, So since then, Um, I've I've found that, you know, I've applied for a number of jobs, and I've only had one job that asked about it and actually called me back. Every other time that I've had to check the box, uh, I've never gotten a callback. You know, I've never heard anything. Um, although I've I've gotten a you know, a decent call back right on jobs that I did not have to check the box. So that's not a definitive study or any conclusion, but you know it, and totally it does. It has seemed to make a difference in my personal experience of employment. My current job is the only one that I've ever checked off the box floor and not only gotten a call back, but then actually got hired. Um. The Daily News did not ask any climes did not ask, although I should have assumed that in journalism, employers would be likely to google you, so I have to do that in my case. People know. But I do think that when, when and whether they ask uh is sort of indicative of how they're they're going to handle the answer. Right now. And we talk about how many people are in prison in this country, thinking about your own experience, how many of the people you saw during your time in prison should not have been there in your opinion, or we're serving too long relative to the crimes they committed. I mean, I think, I think that's a really hard question to answer. But uh, but one thing that I did notice is that I feel like, uh, you know, in a lot of cases, you know, well, in almost all cases, prison did not help. It's not like, uh, somebody went to prison and came out and was better able to address life, Like That's that's pretty rare that someone comes out and does better after prison than they did before. So, uh So in that sense, you know, almost you know, almost no one should should be there if that's the measure. If the goal is rehabilitation. Of course, the goal is not solely rehabilitation. Part of the goal of prison is punishment, so you know, that's the more subjective thing I probably can't really speak to. All Right, Well, we're gonna take a break for a word from our sponsor and we'll be back shortly. Brought to you by Bank of America, Mary Lynch seeing what others have seen, but uncovering what others may not. Global Research that helps you Harness disruption voted top global research from five years running. Mary Lynch, Pierce, Venner and Smith Incorporated. All Right, welcome back. So let's talk a little bit more about the economic issues around the job market. Uh. You know, obviously you had one experience carry at at a facility and upstate New York. Uh. But you know they're with with two million people in prison nationwide, uh, and many more people with a criminal record. Um. What percentage of people would you actually say are are employable? And should employers be more open to people who are desperately trying to get back in the world. It's really hard to say, Uh, what what percentage of people getting out are employable? You know, everyone comes out with a different skill set and you know, a different mindset is to whether they're interested in being rehabilitated. But I think generally, if people are in a position where they're making the effort to look for employment. That's probably would indicator that they're interested in some amount of rehabilitation. I mean, obviously employers are going to take into consideration different things like how long it's been since the crime is committed, and you know what the crime was. I think that employers, Uh, you know, she considered not dismissing felons as a whole, because obviously some are interested in rehabilitation and can make great employees. Let me ask you a question care about, um, kind of a little bit personal. When you were there, how many people did you see actively trying to take advantage of resources that were available to them to support rehabilitation or to support a more successful job search upon their release. Was that common? Well, there aren't really a whole lot of resources to do that behind bars. Um. You know, if you're incarcerated in a state prison, you're you know, you're you're far from home, so it's not like you can sort of start a job search or anything to to get on your feet from behind bars. There are limited college programs, and you know those are typically fo people are interested in those. Uh you know, so, I mean I know one woman who was very inspirational story to me. Anyways, she came in with no high school degree, and she got her j D. And then she started college classes and then by the time she was ready to be released, she she gotten a college degree behind bars. You know. So I think that's an example of someone who's obviously trying to make the most of the resources, but those resources are are very limited. So are they living in the sense that there are you know, just there's so few and the few offerings that are made get filled up really quickly, or they've limited in that like there aren't there isn't a lot of demand. Uh. There there's limited in that there's not a lot of resources and that they fill up quickly. There's also uh you know, there are are also vocational classes um which uh I think not as useful to as many people, but you know, people take them. There's g D classes. People take those. Uh. But you know, what what people do to build their time in prison doesn't always translate to what's going to happen on the outside. Uh. So that can be you know, that can be problematic. But people that have completed some college education in prison have a lower cidivism rate than those that haven't. Let me ask you about the national landscape for prison reform or sentencing reform. Uh. You know, we've the country as elected Donald Trump as president, Republicans both houses of Congress. Trump's platform was was largely lauren order. He supports prison privatization, doesn't want to restore voting rights to uh to ex felons. At the same time, there is kind of this bipartisan sense that, you know, some of the sentencing laws were too strict. People are getting too long sentences for things like drug possession, obviously, and that you know that that benefits you with the sensing laws being changed just before, Um, I think you you went to prison. What do you make of the landscape on these issues right now? Um, what do you think is going to happen? Well, I think that there has been strong bipartisan support for change for a number of years now, and I don't think that a Trump presidency would unilaterally change that. And just um, you know, one more personal question, how have you been able to stay clean all these years? Kerry? Uh? For me, that was a lot about finding something else to fill the spot in my life that Heroin took up. Uh, and for me that's been UH. Journalism has you know, has been, uh, something I could really throw myself into. And I think that for a lot of people who stay clean, it's about finding something else to to fill that spot, to help you become a different person than the person that you were back then. Well, let's let's come back to the you know, the prison population, the prospects for economic growth. You have this tight job market these days, they're they're employers who complain that they can't find workers. You know, we we've been talking about how you know, maybe maybe employers are too strict with not giving felon ex felons a look in their job applications. Uh. Donald Trump says he wants to put million people back to work and double the rate of growth. Is it possible to do that, you think without turning to uh, people who are who are out of prison for for criminal convictions. Carry. Well, I'm not an econmist so I'm probably not that qualified to answer that question. But I think anyone can say that it's easier to make that a possibility if felons are more readily included in the job market. Let me ask you a question, carry personally, just kind of like adding a little bit of color to this, did you see people that you knew while you were in prison struggle to find jobs, even though you know, knowing them personally, they were perfectly capable. Yes, Um, there's there's been I I see you know, on my Facebook speed I have, uh, you know, I keep in touch with a lot of people, and I do see a lot of them struggling to find employment. Uh. And and I think that makes it hard to stay on the right track. If if that's uh, it's that's a big stumbling block. I see that there are certain fields in which people seem to have more luck. Uh. Seems that a lot of people that are doing well have gone into advocacy and non profit work, and that seems to be a feel that is currently relatively open minded to hiring people with a criminal background. But some people that have black hounds in other fields, it's it's much more difficult. All right, Well, Kerry, let's leave it there. Thank you so much for joining us. This has been a really fascinating discussion. And uh, you know, I'm personally gratified that that that journalism has that that that you're part of our profession and in that you know that has helped you stay clean. Like like you said, to give you that drive in your life. Well, thank you and thanks for having me on today. Al Right, Benchmark will be back next week and until then, you can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal and Bloomberg dot com, as well as on iTunes, pocket casts, and Stitcher. While you're there, take a minute to rate and review the show so more listeners can find us and let us know what you thought of the show. You can talk to us and follow us on Twitter at Scott Landman. You can find me a by Kate Smith, and you can also find our guest carry At at carry b l A. Thanks for listening, See you next time. Brought to you by Bank of America. Merrill Lynch Seeing what others have seen, but uncovering what others may not. Global Research that helps you Harness disruption voted top global research from five years running. Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner and Smith Incorporated

Brought to you by Bank of America. Merrill Lynch Seeing what others have seen, but uncovering what others may not. Global Research that helps you harness disruption voted top Global research from five years running. Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner, and Smith Incorporated. When I got out and I had access to the Internet of the cannabis, tarted to realize that there were all these other ways, like all the all these other points at which race can play roles, such as you know, rebounding from something like this. Um. You know, there's there's some data I've read that that white people with a record are more likely to get hired than black people with that one, and you know that that's kind of shocking. Hello, and welcome back to Bloomberg Benchmark Show about the global economy. I'm Scott Landman, an economics editor with Bloomberg News in Washington, and I'm Keith Smith, an editor with Bloomberg here in New York. All right, well, if you're looking for a break from this post election madness, you've come to the right place. Today on Benchmark, we're turning our attention to an often overlooked corner of the U. S economy. Our prison population. So here are some numbers that we found really interesting. The US accounts for one fifth of the world's prisoners, even though the nation only has of the world's population. That's right, the US has two point two million people in prison, and that's more people than China actually has in prison, and China has a population that's four times bigger than the United States. All told, the US imprisons almost one per cent of its population. That excludes other forms of detention, but it's still, you know, pretty high number. And it's actually the highest proportion in the world when you look at the share of the population that's in jail. So here a Bloomberg. We obviously love superlatives. So hearing highest proportion, that got us thinking two questions, are there too many people in jail? And is that very fact? You know? The extension in that we make it tough for x cons to get back to jobs, is holding back economic growth? Well, joining us today to explore the issue as a woman in her early thirties who was intimately familiar with what it's like to go to prison and what it's like to rejoin the workforce afterwards. Carry Blakinger was a senior at Cornell, the Ivy League university in upstate New York, when she was busted six years ago for heroin possession six ounces to be precise. Kerry pleaded guilty to criminal possession of a controlled substance Class B felony and served twenty one months in prison out of a two and a half year sentence. She did most of her time at Albion, a medium security facility for women in upstate New York. Following her release in September, Carry managed to get reinstated at Cornell, graduated with a degree in English in December, and got herself a job at the Ithaca Times. She since moved on to the New York Daily News and more recently moved to Texas, where she's now working as a general assignment reporter at the Houston Chronicle. She's on the phone with us now from Houston. Carry, thank you so much for joining us today. Hi, thanks for having me. Carry. Let's get one thing out of the way, something you've been open about discussing. You're white. How much did your race play in your ability to rebound from prison, earn your degree and get a job in the industry of your choosing? Well, you know, I think that, Uh it obviously it played a huge role, but uh, it's really difficult to point to an exact moment and say, oh, this happened because I was white. Uh. It's something that I sort of gradually realized in looking at data that there are um a lot of indications that statistically this rebound would have been less likely if I were a minority. Um. I think that before going to prison, I hadn't really thought a lot about the racial disparities in the criminal justice system. Like I sort of I knew that they existed, as I think everyone does, but it didn't really hit home until I was actually seen it in front of me. Uh. And and even then it was not immediately apparent because in the county that I got arrested in, it's so over overwhelmingly white that the county jail is also overwhelmingly white. It's uh. In Thompton County, which is where it is, the county jail is somewhere around twentysomething present black, which is much lower than most other incarcerated populations. But that's because the town is only about five percent block. So it wasn't until I went to state prison. Um after about ten months that I that I was seeing, you know, around half of the population was black, and um, you know, and that is that makes it much more obvious. That sort of drives home these statistics that you might read about, um, you know, I mean when you hear people's stories and you realize why they're there and the differences in what sort of crimes lands people in prison. So you know this this was sort of gradual realization for me. And then when I got out, uh and I had access to the internet the cannon, I started to realize that there were all these other ways, like all the all these other points at which race can play roles, such as you know, rebounding from something like this. Um, you know, there's there's some data I've read that, uh that white people with a record are more likely to get hired than black people with that one, and you know that that's kind of shocking. I certainly can't look back at anyone's job and say, oh, I I would not have gotten hired if I were a minority in this job. But I know that overall, statistically it's true. And I think that that's something that sometimes people struggle with when they, you know, they'll ask me, well, at what point did this play a role? And I sort of can't point to any one thing and say definitively race with the factor here, but I can say that, you know, there's all these different points at which is really likely that it played a role, and it's you know, statistically looking at the data, is it looks like it's likely played a role. If I can jump in, Um, one thing, I you know, kind of as you're talking, I thought was a little bit interesting. So obviously you know the word fell in. You know, it carries a start, as you know, a certain stigma, but in reality it's an umbrella term for you know, a host of different things, you know, ranging from you know, kind of what happened with you, but then you know some much much more like violent crimes. Um, why does society attach so much stigma to felons given that you know kind of the breadth of those crimes and some are just so much worse than others. I mean, is this failure to properly rehabilitate people holding back society and the economy. Well, to answer your your first question, I think that, uh, one of the reason people attached to speaking of sounds is because a lot of people think of silence as rapists and murderers, and it's actually, you know, as you said, a much broader class. I mean, this can include drunk driving charges, even in situations where no one's actually been injured. UM. Not to minimize the severity of drunk driving, but I'm just saying I think that's not what a lot of people think of when they think of a felon UM. So I think that that's part of the reason why there's this stigma, because people sort of just assume this means murderers and rapists, you know, and and also you know, Sony's don't go away in most states. In some states there are options to ex fund or steal your record. UM. But something that's twenty years old can have just as much impact on your ability to get a job as something that's five years old. It really just depends on how employers ask, how they ask about it, and how they choose to take time to account. If I can ask you a personal question, Carrie, when you were looking at jobs after um, your experience in prison, how did you handle that question? So, my my first job at the at the Times, it was not a question. Everything you knew. It was a small town like there's no chance i'd he was unaware. Um, so, uh, you know, it's it's a small, very liberal town, and um, you know this was just sort of h it was a nice little homie paper and a nice community, so it was not as likely to affect me there in that job. Okay, but that's then moving up to the other one the other places, right, So since then, Um, I've I've found that, you know, I've applied for a number of jobs, and I've only had one job that asked about it and actually called me back. Every other time that I've had to check the box, uh, I've never gotten a callback. You know, I've never heard anything. Um, although I've I've gotten a you know, a decent call back right on jobs that I did not have to check the box. So that's not a definitive study or any conclusion, but you know it, and totally it does. It has seemed to make a difference in my personal experience of employment. My current job is the only one that I've ever checked off the box floor and not only gotten a call back, but then actually got hired. Um. The Daily News did not ask any climes did not ask, although I should have assumed that in journalism, employers would be likely to google you, so I have to do that in my case. People know. But I do think that when, when and whether they ask uh is sort of indicative of how they're they're going to handle the answer. Right now. And we talk about how many people are in prison in this country, thinking about your own experience, how many of the people you saw during your time in prison should not have been there in your opinion, or we're serving too long relative to the crimes they committed. I mean, I think, I think that's a really hard question to answer. But uh, but one thing that I did notice is that I feel like, uh, you know, in a lot of cases, you know, well, in almost all cases, prison did not help. It's not like, uh, somebody went to prison and came out and was better able to address life, Like That's that's pretty rare that someone comes out and does better after prison than they did before. So, uh So in that sense, you know, almost you know, almost no one should should be there if that's the measure. If the goal is rehabilitation. Of course, the goal is not solely rehabilitation. Part of the goal of prison is punishment, so you know, that's the more subjective thing I probably can't really speak to. All Right, Well, we're gonna take a break for a word from our sponsor and we'll be back shortly. Brought to you by Bank of America, Mary Lynch seeing what others have seen, but uncovering what others may not. Global Research that helps you Harness disruption voted top global research from five years running. Mary Lynch, Pierce, Venner and Smith Incorporated. All Right, welcome back. So let's talk a little bit more about the economic issues around the job market. Uh. You know, obviously you had one experience carry at at a facility and upstate New York. Uh. But you know they're with with two million people in prison nationwide, uh, and many more people with a criminal record. Um. What percentage of people would you actually say are are employable? And should employers be more open to people who are desperately trying to get back in the world. It's really hard to say, Uh, what what percentage of people getting out are employable? You know, everyone comes out with a different skill set and you know, a different mindset is to whether they're interested in being rehabilitated. But I think generally, if people are in a position where they're making the effort to look for employment. That's probably would indicator that they're interested in some amount of rehabilitation. I mean, obviously employers are going to take into consideration different things like how long it's been since the crime is committed, and you know what the crime was. I think that employers, Uh, you know, she considered not dismissing felons as a whole, because obviously some are interested in rehabilitation and can make great employees. Let me ask you a question care about, um, kind of a little bit personal. When you were there, how many people did you see actively trying to take advantage of resources that were available to them to support rehabilitation or to support a more successful job search upon their release. Was that common? Well, there aren't really a whole lot of resources to do that behind bars. Um. You know, if you're incarcerated in a state prison, you're you know, you're you're far from home, so it's not like you can sort of start a job search or anything to to get on your feet from behind bars. There are limited college programs, and you know those are typically fo people are interested in those. Uh you know, so, I mean I know one woman who was very inspirational story to me. Anyways, she came in with no high school degree, and she got her j D. And then she started college classes and then by the time she was ready to be released, she she gotten a college degree behind bars. You know. So I think that's an example of someone who's obviously trying to make the most of the resources, but those resources are are very limited. So are they living in the sense that there are you know, just there's so few and the few offerings that are made get filled up really quickly, or they've limited in that like there aren't there isn't a lot of demand. Uh. There there's limited in that there's not a lot of resources and that they fill up quickly. There's also uh you know, there are are also vocational classes um which uh I think not as useful to as many people, but you know, people take them. There's g D classes. People take those. Uh. But you know, what what people do to build their time in prison doesn't always translate to what's going to happen on the outside. Uh. So that can be you know, that can be problematic. But people that have completed some college education in prison have a lower cidivism rate than those that haven't. Let me ask you about the national landscape for prison reform or sentencing reform. Uh. You know, we've the country as elected Donald Trump as president, Republicans both houses of Congress. Trump's platform was was largely lauren order. He supports prison privatization, doesn't want to restore voting rights to uh to ex felons. At the same time, there is kind of this bipartisan sense that, you know, some of the sentencing laws were too strict. People are getting too long sentences for things like drug possession, obviously, and that you know that that benefits you with the sensing laws being changed just before, Um, I think you you went to prison. What do you make of the landscape on these issues right now? Um, what do you think is going to happen? Well, I think that there has been strong bipartisan support for change for a number of years now, and I don't think that a Trump presidency would unilaterally change that. And just um, you know, one more personal question, how have you been able to stay clean all these years? Kerry? Uh? For me, that was a lot about finding something else to fill the spot in my life that Heroin took up. Uh, and for me that's been UH. Journalism has you know, has been, uh, something I could really throw myself into. And I think that for a lot of people who stay clean, it's about finding something else to to fill that spot, to help you become a different person than the person that you were back then. Well, let's let's come back to the you know, the prison population, the prospects for economic growth. You have this tight job market these days, they're they're employers who complain that they can't find workers. You know, we we've been talking about how you know, maybe maybe employers are too strict with not giving felon ex felons a look in their job applications. Uh. Donald Trump says he wants to put million people back to work and double the rate of growth. Is it possible to do that, you think without turning to uh, people who are who are out of prison for for criminal convictions. Carry. Well, I'm not an econmist so I'm probably not that qualified to answer that question. But I think anyone can say that it's easier to make that a possibility if felons are more readily included in the job market. Let me ask you a question, carry personally, just kind of like adding a little bit of color to this, did you see people that you knew while you were in prison struggle to find jobs, even though you know, knowing them personally, they were perfectly capable. Yes, Um, there's there's been I I see you know, on my Facebook speed I have, uh, you know, I keep in touch with a lot of people, and I do see a lot of them struggling to find employment. Uh. And and I think that makes it hard to stay on the right track. If if that's uh, it's that's a big stumbling block. I see that there are certain fields in which people seem to have more luck. Uh. Seems that a lot of people that are doing well have gone into advocacy and non profit work, and that seems to be a feel that is currently relatively open minded to hiring people with a criminal background. But some people that have black hounds in other fields, it's it's much more difficult. All right, Well, Kerry, let's leave it there. Thank you so much for joining us. This has been a really fascinating discussion. And uh, you know, I'm personally gratified that that that journalism has that that that you're part of our profession and in that you know that has helped you stay clean. Like like you said, to give you that drive in your life. Well, thank you and thanks for having me on today. Al Right, Benchmark will be back next week and until then, you can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal and Bloomberg dot com, as well as on iTunes, pocket casts, and Stitcher. While you're there, take a minute to rate and review the show so more listeners can find us and let us know what you thought of the show. You can talk to us and follow us on Twitter at Scott Landman. You can find me a by Kate Smith, and you can also find our guest carry At at carry b l A. Thanks for listening, See you next time. Brought to you by Bank of America. Merrill Lynch Seeing what others have seen, but uncovering what others may not. Global Research that helps you Harness disruption voted top global research from five years running. Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner and Smith Incorporated