The early 20th century saw a craze for historic pageants – huge theatrical events with casts of thousands. Gwen Lally called herself England’s first female pageant master, and in 1932 she arrived at Battle Abbey in Sussex with great ambitions for her latest show. It was unusual for a woman to wield such power, but even more unusual was her decision to wear masculine clothes. This was a woman who pushed the boundaries.

With English Heritage curator Kathryn Bedford, Josie Long explores the story of the Battle Abbey Pageant and speaks to Lally biographer Deborah Sugg Ryan about new research that is shedding light on the enigmatic pageant master's personal life. She also meets E-J Scott, Curator of the Museum of Transology, and Francesca Reid (aka drag king Brent Would) to discuss how gender roles have been challenged through performance.

Visit our episode page to find out more about Gwen Lally, the Battle Abbey pageant and women's masculine dress in the interwar years.

Speaking with Shadows is brought to you by English Heritage. 

Presenter: Josie Long

Producer: Katharine Kerr for Fresh Air

Contributors: Kathryn Bedford, English Heritage Collections Curator (South East); Deborah Sugg Ryan, Professor of Design History and Theory at University of Portsmouth; E-J Scott, Historian, Curator and Queer Cultural Producer; Francesca Reid, performer and creator of the drag king Brent Would.

english-heritage.org.uk/speakingwithshadows