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Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on Apple, Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.

Thanks Charlie, and again, Joe, you talked about it earlier. A very busy day at the White House. We love these four o'clock events, you know, it makes everything so much easier for us later in the day. But we have another one coming up today when it does come to the Education decision or discussion.

Thanks Charlie, and again, Joe, you talked about it earlier. A very busy day at the White House. We love these four o'clock events, you know, it makes everything so much easier for us later in the day. But we have another one coming up today when it does come to the Education decision or discussion.

Yeah, look, it's going to be an executive action. This isn't exactly binding when it comes to eliminating a federal agency, but can be very powerful when it comes to shrinking one down here and we did hear from Caroline Levett earlier today putting a finer point on what exactly this department will be once they're done. Remembering on the campaign trail Donald Trump, candidate Trump promised to eliminate the department, and even in the Oval office said that Linda McMahon's job was to work herself out of a job.

Yeah, look, it's going to be an executive action. This isn't exactly binding when it comes to eliminating a federal agency, but can be very powerful when it comes to shrinking one down here and we did hear from Caroline Levett earlier today putting a finer point on what exactly this department will be once they're done. Remembering on the campaign trail Donald Trump, candidate Trump promised to eliminate the department, and even in the Oval office said that Linda McMahon's job was to work herself out of a job.

It was a job to become unemployed.

It was a job to become unemployed.

That's right, and she'll be holding forth in the east room today as well. But there's a different wrinkle in the conversation today than we've been having. That's where we start with Bloomberg's Tyler Kendall Live at the White House.

That's right, and she'll be holding forth in the east room today as well. But there's a different wrinkle in the conversation today than we've been having. That's where we start with Bloomberg's Tyler Kendall Live at the White House.

Tyler, Yeah, hey, Joe, Well you said at four pm Eastern, that is when we are expecting, according to our Bloomberg News reporting, that President Trump will sign this executive order essentially ordering federal officials to dismantle the Department of Education. Importantly, though, White House Press Secretary Caroline Levett was here right behind me on the White House North Lawn last hour, and she said that the Department's not going to be abolished, but she did say it's going to look quite different.

Tyler, Yeah, hey, Joe, Well you said at four pm Eastern, that is when we are expecting, according to our Bloomberg News reporting, that President Trump will sign this executive order essentially ordering federal officials to dismantle the Department of Education. Importantly, though, White House Press Secretary Caroline Levett was here right behind me on the White House North Lawn last hour, and she said that the Department's not going to be abolished, but she did say it's going to look quite different.

The Department of Education will be much smaller than it is today. As you know, the President's executive order directed Linda McMahon to greatly minimize the agency. So when it comes to student loans and pelgrants, those will still be run out of the Department of Education. But we don't need to be spending more than three trillion dollars over the course of a few decades on a department that's clearly failing in its initial intention to educate our.

The Department of Education will be much smaller than it is today. As you know, the President's executive order directed Linda McMahon to greatly minimize the agency. So when it comes to student loans and pelgrants, those will still be run out of the Department of Education. But we don't need to be spending more than three trillion dollars over the course of a few decades on a department that's clearly failing in its initial intention to educate our.

Students, Tyler, Did she seem to have a sense that there could be some questions and some issues ahead from Congress. Did she discuss that.

Students, Tyler, Did she seem to have a sense that there could be some questions and some issues ahead from Congress. Did she discuss that.

Yeah, sorry, Julie, we are having a slate issue there with the sound. But as you heard Caroline love Att, there answering some key questions that the department's not going to be fully abolished, but rather they were looking to slim this down. Now you asked about Congress, it does appear at this moment there's no real appetite for Congress to do this. If we, just for the sake of example, say that this is something that Congress would want to tackle, would need at least sixty Senators in order to get on board there. If there's fifty three Republicans in the Senate, you need seven more. That seems rather unrealistic. But she did answer a key question, which is what is going to be the future when it comes to funding and the education Department. She said that in this slim down version, pelgrants, for example, would still be there. There were big questions about how this would impact federal student law. Owns A federal assistance that go to students with disabilities, for example, And just to put a finer point on it, I wanted to add that even with this executive order, we really have already seen this White House take that unilateral action when it comes to slash and slash the department already, for example last week, cutting about half of the federal workers that are already there and canceling some of the releases in regional offices across the country.

Yeah, sorry, Julie, we are having a slate issue there with the sound. But as you heard Caroline love Att, there answering some key questions that the department's not going to be fully abolished, but rather they were looking to slim this down. Now you asked about Congress, it does appear at this moment there's no real appetite for Congress to do this. If we, just for the sake of example, say that this is something that Congress would want to tackle, would need at least sixty Senators in order to get on board there. If there's fifty three Republicans in the Senate, you need seven more. That seems rather unrealistic. But she did answer a key question, which is what is going to be the future when it comes to funding and the education Department. She said that in this slim down version, pelgrants, for example, would still be there. There were big questions about how this would impact federal student law. Owns A federal assistance that go to students with disabilities, for example, And just to put a finer point on it, I wanted to add that even with this executive order, we really have already seen this White House take that unilateral action when it comes to slash and slash the department already, for example last week, cutting about half of the federal workers that are already there and canceling some of the releases in regional offices across the country.

Tyler, thanks so much for being with us. Mick mulvaney, former congressman, you will now join us to talk with us a little bit about his Department of Education.

Tyler, thanks so much for being with us. Mick mulvaney, former congressman, you will now join us to talk with us a little bit about his Department of Education.

Yeah, just getting rid of it.

Yeah, just getting rid of it.

I'm count me in. Where do you want to start?

I'm count me in. Where do you want to start?

As a former congressman? Can we count you in?

As a former congressman? Can we count you in?

I mean in terms of Congress. Do you think it'll be an easy road? Do you think they'll say, Okay, it's just a dismantling.

I mean in terms of Congress. Do you think it'll be an easy road? Do you think they'll say, Okay, it's just a dismantling.

What do they do now? They'll never get rid of it because it's statutory and they'll never change the law. So what you're seeing the administration try to do is do as much as they possibly can within the current executive authority. That parallel I draw Julie is back in I think it was twenty eighteen when I was running the CFPB. We did a deep dive on what authority I had as a director and what authority the president had, and we're pretty sure we didn't have the authority to shut the place down and cease to be okay. But we were pretty sure that president had the right to tell people to go home, had to pay them okay, and the thing had to continue to exist. But we could not sort of get rid of it entirely. And that's what you're seeing I think in Department Education, which is a dramatically stripped down version because they can't get rid of it entirely because it's in statute and the statute's not going to change.

What do they do now? They'll never get rid of it because it's statutory and they'll never change the law. So what you're seeing the administration try to do is do as much as they possibly can within the current executive authority. That parallel I draw Julie is back in I think it was twenty eighteen when I was running the CFPB. We did a deep dive on what authority I had as a director and what authority the president had, and we're pretty sure we didn't have the authority to shut the place down and cease to be okay. But we were pretty sure that president had the right to tell people to go home, had to pay them okay, and the thing had to continue to exist. But we could not sort of get rid of it entirely. And that's what you're seeing I think in Department Education, which is a dramatically stripped down version because they can't get rid of it entirely because it's in statute and the statute's not going to change.

Solon and McMahon, I guess we'll still have a job of technically this is done technically, maybe not coming to spend a lot of time at work.

Solon and McMahon, I guess we'll still have a job of technically this is done technically, maybe not coming to spend a lot of time at work.

Thanks for coming back back.

Thanks for coming back back.

It's going to suy.

It's going to suy.

Of course, your history, as Kaylie looks at Chief of staff, Kaylee does look it today. I can play both roles the best, I think omb all of your your whole resume kind of ties into your view on this when it comes to the idea of executive authority and what might be left.

Of course, your history, as Kaylie looks at Chief of staff, Kaylee does look it today. I can play both roles the best, I think omb all of your your whole resume kind of ties into your view on this when it comes to the idea of executive authority and what might be left.

The fact is the narrative changed a little bit.

The fact is the narrative changed a little bit.

It went from shutting it down to Pelgrant's and other student loans actually having a home at the Department of Education instead of saying putting them under treasury.

It went from shutting it down to Pelgrant's and other student loans actually having a home at the Department of Education instead of saying putting them under treasury.

This is a smart development in your.

This is a smart development in your.

View, it's listen. I think they're trying to get their feet under them. I know what they'd like to do, which is just blow the place up and be done with it and not spend.

View, it's listen. I think they're trying to get their feet under them. I know what they'd like to do, which is just blow the place up and be done with it and not spend.

Any with USA idea exactly.

Any with USA idea exactly.

But I think they're just trying to figure out, Okay, we can do something, we can't do everything we want to. What's that happy medium? And I listen. I think on the hierarchy of things that conservatives object to about the Department of Education, the fact that are a pass through for funding to the states is probably really, really low. Every one of these members of the House and the Senate obviously are from a state, and the state probably its first or second largest line item in its budget after Medicaid, is going to be K twelve education or higher education. So they want the money, right, they just don't want the federal interference. So I think they're trying to figure out a way to accomplish that within the confines of the current law.

But I think they're just trying to figure out, Okay, we can do something, we can't do everything we want to. What's that happy medium? And I listen. I think on the hierarchy of things that conservatives object to about the Department of Education, the fact that are a pass through for funding to the states is probably really, really low. Every one of these members of the House and the Senate obviously are from a state, and the state probably its first or second largest line item in its budget after Medicaid, is going to be K twelve education or higher education. So they want the money, right, they just don't want the federal interference. So I think they're trying to figure out a way to accomplish that within the confines of the current law.

How what's the timeframe on this, Like, does it need to be done quickly with the new president coming in in such a short period of time saying we need to do this, I want to do this. I mean you've seen it. You've seen how quickly everything is happening.

How what's the timeframe on this, Like, does it need to be done quickly with the new president coming in in such a short period of time saying we need to do this, I want to do this. I mean you've seen it. You've seen how quickly everything is happening.

Yeah, well it doesn't need to be done at all. I think what you're trying to see is this is this I think is the private sector CEO influence in the White House right now, which I include Donald Trump in that, but you also got Wick Coff and Bessent and Elon Musk, which is, if you're gonna do the unpopular stuff, if you're gonna do the hard stuff, if you come into your new CEO in operation, you got to turnaround do the hard stuff first. And I think that's what you're saying.

Yeah, well it doesn't need to be done at all. I think what you're trying to see is this is this I think is the private sector CEO influence in the White House right now, which I include Donald Trump in that, but you also got Wick Coff and Bessent and Elon Musk, which is, if you're gonna do the unpopular stuff, if you're gonna do the hard stuff, if you come into your new CEO in operation, you got to turnaround do the hard stuff first. And I think that's what you're saying.

We had a pretty robust debate before you join the program.

We had a pretty robust debate before you join the program.

Oh I heard Nazi Germany come up when I was going the.

Oh I heard Nazi Germany come up when I was going the.

Mental I did too. So let's talk about higher education, right.

Mental I did too. So let's talk about higher education, right.

One of your thoughts about what's happening at Columbia University four hundred million dollars on the line. You pen sees one hundred and fifty seventy five million go poof over a transgender athlete policies. The same question I asked, then, is what's the endgame here? What is the vision that the White House thinks it's about to realize.

One of your thoughts about what's happening at Columbia University four hundred million dollars on the line. You pen sees one hundred and fifty seventy five million go poof over a transgender athlete policies. The same question I asked, then, is what's the endgame here? What is the vision that the White House thinks it's about to realize.

If I had, if I had to get and it'd be an educated guess, it's just to get the federal government out of subsidizing these institutions. The caller and I don't know who it was. Literally, I was in the men's room listening to this because you guys have a radio system that works like that, right.

If I had, if I had to get and it'd be an educated guess, it's just to get the federal government out of subsidizing these institutions. The caller and I don't know who it was. Literally, I was in the men's room listening to this because you guys have a radio system that works like that, right.

Well, that's true.

Well, that's true.

I'm sure you cannot hide in this building. That's right.

I'm sure you cannot hide in this building. That's right.

It's our political panel. Aiashia Mills was waging in along with this.

It's our political panel. Aiashia Mills was waging in along with this.

She's like, you know, they're trying they're trying to shut down the agent the people that they disagree with them philosophically. No, we're not. We're just trying to stop subsidizing it. These folks, these institutions, and I'm I'm the alma mater, I mean some of them are my alma maters. I mean Harvard, North Carolina, Georgetown. They're not entitled to taxpayer money. I mean, why do we think that they are. They're private institutions. So yeah, Democrat administrations come in, maybe they throw some money that way, but Republicans come in, maybe they take them away. I don't know why that is so revolutionary.

She's like, you know, they're trying they're trying to shut down the agent the people that they disagree with them philosophically. No, we're not. We're just trying to stop subsidizing it. These folks, these institutions, and I'm I'm the alma mater, I mean some of them are my alma maters. I mean Harvard, North Carolina, Georgetown. They're not entitled to taxpayer money. I mean, why do we think that they are. They're private institutions. So yeah, Democrat administrations come in, maybe they throw some money that way, but Republicans come in, maybe they take them away. I don't know why that is so revolutionary.

And this is something at this point should universities and colleges even.

And this is something at this point should universities and colleges even.

Be that surprised about.

Be that surprised about.

No, they shouldn't. And e listen, I haven't seen the balance sheet on pen anytime soon, but my guess is they can get by without one hundred and forty million bucks, but they like to have it. Yeah, they would. I think they're probably more concerned by the way, about the tax proposals on taxing their their endowments than they are in these individual contracts and so forth. I think it's one of the reasons you saw Harvard dramatically expand their financial services or excuse me, their financial support for students this week, so that they build up a constituency of people who can call Congress and say, don't tax my endowment because my kids are getting this benefit at Harvard or fill in the blanket.

No, they shouldn't. And e listen, I haven't seen the balance sheet on pen anytime soon, but my guess is they can get by without one hundred and forty million bucks, but they like to have it. Yeah, they would. I think they're probably more concerned by the way, about the tax proposals on taxing their their endowments than they are in these individual contracts and so forth. I think it's one of the reasons you saw Harvard dramatically expand their financial services or excuse me, their financial support for students this week, so that they build up a constituency of people who can call Congress and say, don't tax my endowment because my kids are getting this benefit at Harvard or fill in the blanket.

We haven't spent time with you in a while, so I want to ask you about a few other things happening here. I want to delighting the sixty of the new administration. You might sure has been sixty months.

We haven't spent time with you in a while, so I want to ask you about a few other things happening here. I want to delighting the sixty of the new administration. You might sure has been sixty months.

Whatever. Listen, happy spring.

Whatever. Listen, happy spring.

By the way, Spring, there's a lot going on that the market is very upset about. Your market sensitive and so I want your view on this round trip that we've had back to before the election, because everybody wants to know what the heck these tariffs are going to mean? Yeah, which ones are real? Is this about raising revenue? Is it about getting concessions out of other countries to zero?

By the way, Spring, there's a lot going on that the market is very upset about. Your market sensitive and so I want your view on this round trip that we've had back to before the election, because everybody wants to know what the heck these tariffs are going to mean? Yeah, which ones are real? Is this about raising revenue? Is it about getting concessions out of other countries to zero?

Or trade relationship? Look at this, Mick, What the heck's going on?

Or trade relationship? Look at this, Mick, What the heck's going on?

There's a bunch of different answers to a bunch of different questions. You go through a bunch of are they are they here for to stay? It depends, right. I think the ones defending American steel and alumin and probably here for a good bit. The ones targeting China, probably here for a good bit. The other ones that are sort of leveraged for other issues Mexico for example. You'll hear those coming on and off for the next four years. Adding time Donald Trump gets an answer he doesn't like out of a foreign nation. It's going to be a discussion about tariffs. I think that if we're if the markets were honest with itself and they want to speak candidly to Donald Trump, this is what they tell them. We get the China thing, okay, and even though we don't like the steel lumin thing, we get it. We understand that you ran on that. We get the Canada thing has got us freaked out because we don't know why you're doing this.

There's a bunch of different answers to a bunch of different questions. You go through a bunch of are they are they here for to stay? It depends, right. I think the ones defending American steel and alumin and probably here for a good bit. The ones targeting China, probably here for a good bit. The other ones that are sort of leveraged for other issues Mexico for example. You'll hear those coming on and off for the next four years. Adding time Donald Trump gets an answer he doesn't like out of a foreign nation. It's going to be a discussion about tariffs. I think that if we're if the markets were honest with itself and they want to speak candidly to Donald Trump, this is what they tell them. We get the China thing, okay, and even though we don't like the steel lumin thing, we get it. We understand that you ran on that. We get the Canada thing has got us freaked out because we don't know why you're doing this.

You might talk to you about Canada.

You might talk to you about Canada.

What's no Mexico, I get Meck you got a drug problem, you got it, you got it. You got an immigration problem Canada? You know you don't. You don't, you don't have any of those things. So there's that that there's an irrationality there that has got people spooked. And when you line that up. Listen, if you just had a Panama Canal conversation by itself, or a Panama maybe with a Greenland conversation, you can sort of say, oh, it's posturing.

What's no Mexico, I get Meck you got a drug problem, you got it, you got it. You got an immigration problem Canada? You know you don't. You don't, you don't have any of those things. So there's that that there's an irrationality there that has got people spooked. And when you line that up. Listen, if you just had a Panama Canal conversation by itself, or a Panama maybe with a Greenland conversation, you can sort of say, oh, it's posturing.

It's all this kind ofcept.

It's all this kind ofcept.

But then when you add real tariffs on Canada, which which hurts us dramatically. By the way, Australia would be another one of these, doesn't make any sense to me. I think That's what got the market spook more than anything else. Meg.

But then when you add real tariffs on Canada, which which hurts us dramatically. By the way, Australia would be another one of these, doesn't make any sense to me. I think That's what got the market spook more than anything else. Meg.

I'm wonder if you you know, look at CEOs. You know, Donald Trump has so much support from the business community until their bottom line is really affected. You know, how long does he have to do this? And I constantly hear about the uncertainty, the uncertainty and how it's affecting business. How long does he have to do this before some CEOs turn around and say, this is a real problem for my bottom line.

I'm wonder if you you know, look at CEOs. You know, Donald Trump has so much support from the business community until their bottom line is really affected. You know, how long does he have to do this? And I constantly hear about the uncertainty, the uncertainty and how it's affecting business. How long does he have to do this before some CEOs turn around and say, this is a real problem for my bottom line.

I always cringed a little bit when when market leaders, when CEOs Fortune one hundred five hundred guys who come the over loss and say we need more certainty. And I'm like, really, that's that's what your business is all about, certainty. I didn't realize that was what you know made you go into business, that you wanted certainty. It's an uncertain world that we live in. But I think the answer to your question how long the wait is that the next earnings report so and when they start to see him hit the bottom line. I think the airlines are already starting to feel.

I always cringed a little bit when when market leaders, when CEOs Fortune one hundred five hundred guys who come the over loss and say we need more certainty. And I'm like, really, that's that's what your business is all about, certainty. I didn't realize that was what you know made you go into business, that you wanted certainty. It's an uncertain world that we live in. But I think the answer to your question how long the wait is that the next earnings report so and when they start to see him hit the bottom line. I think the airlines are already starting to feel.

We saw that in the last couple of ys from retailers as well. Retailers scare we see what the results The good news.

We saw that in the last couple of ys from retailers as well. Retailers scare we see what the results The good news.

Is that the lines of communication are really good. And I think that Look, everybody wants to keep the president happy. That that is a statement that applies across the board, across the centuries, and across parties. Right, business leaders want to be on good terms in president I states, you don't ever want to be the crosshairs. So it doesn't surprise me. They've said nice things about Trump for the last sixty days or since the election and so forth. But I think they'll have to start being candid if these policies start hitting their bottom lines.

Is that the lines of communication are really good. And I think that Look, everybody wants to keep the president happy. That that is a statement that applies across the board, across the centuries, and across parties. Right, business leaders want to be on good terms in president I states, you don't ever want to be the crosshairs. So it doesn't surprise me. They've said nice things about Trump for the last sixty days or since the election and so forth. But I think they'll have to start being candid if these policies start hitting their bottom lines.

You buy shares of Tesla this morning?

You buy shares of Tesla this morning?

You know, well, first of all, number one, I don't take my investment of vice.

You know, well, first of all, number one, I don't take my investment of vice.

From all no more.

From all no more.

I just wonder how did how did next lawyers feel about it? Well?

I just wonder how did how did next lawyers feel about it? Well?

Did the former chief of staff? And you just like did you?

Did the former chief of staff? And you just like did you?

Was that all the like?

Was that all the like?

What are the compliance papers going to say?

What are the compliance papers going to say?

Now the former lawyer in me is thinking buy Tesla because Tesla goes down, I can sue the commerce secretary.

Now the former lawyer in me is thinking buy Tesla because Tesla goes down, I can sue the commerce secretary.

Let's go went on here with that though they were selling Tesla's on the driveway the other day in another commerce secretary put a birating on the stock.

Let's go went on here with that though they were selling Tesla's on the driveway the other day in another commerce secretary put a birating on the stock.

Yeah, I think the lutning thing is probably just a lack of discipline, and I think he probably walked off stage and his staff. But mister Secretary's like, yeah, maybe I should have said that, But what I get the message?

Yeah, I think the lutning thing is probably just a lack of discipline, and I think he probably walked off stage and his staff. But mister Secretary's like, yeah, maybe I should have said that, But what I get the message?

I think, so, yeah, what's the later conversation right after that, the exactly what it's got to be?

I think, so, yeah, what's the later conversation right after that, the exactly what it's got to be?

Ugly? Yeah, it's ugly, is not it's it's it's respectfully sort of clarifying. So listen, it's not as bad as the comment. I don't think that Tim wall said yesterday about, you know, rooting for Tesla stock to go down when the pension fund in his state.

Ugly? Yeah, it's ugly, is not it's it's it's respectfully sort of clarifying. So listen, it's not as bad as the comment. I don't think that Tim wall said yesterday about, you know, rooting for Tesla stock to go down when the pension fund in his state.

Wanted to put those couple of millions down together. And I didn't know about what this dental floss. He said, you'd take the logo off with the dental floss Tesla.

Wanted to put those couple of millions down together. And I didn't know about what this dental floss. He said, you'd take the logo off with the dental floss Tesla.

But that's so you used to talk to the President of the United States about the market?

But that's so you used to talk to the President of the United States about the market?

Sure? Yeah.

Sure? Yeah.

Is it true that he's a different man now that he's not actually kind of doesn't care like he says. Is he watching secretly wondering when wall Street's gonna gonna get line or does he see across the valley and say, you know what, no pain, no gain in a year.

Is it true that he's a different man now that he's not actually kind of doesn't care like he says. Is he watching secretly wondering when wall Street's gonna gonna get line or does he see across the valley and say, you know what, no pain, no gain in a year.

This thing's going to be at a new hut.

This thing's going to be at a new hut.

So let me give you something. It's out of fashion of Washington, DCNS. The nuanced answer going to say, I don't know.

So let me give you something. It's out of fashion of Washington, DCNS. The nuanced answer going to say, I don't know.

No, okay, I'm going.

No, okay, I'm going.

To say that it's a combination of things, which is that he is a second term president, and second term presidents are always different than first terms because you're not worrying about running reelection, despite what Steve Bannon said on News Nation the other night, which makes no sense at all. So yes, you're going to be relieved a little bit of the political pressure of having to run for office. At the same time, you'd really like your party to remain in power in the House, so you still watch it a little bit. But when anybody from the White House comes out from either party and says we don't watch the markets on a day, the market goes down a thousand points. What that means is they're absolutely watching the markets very good.

To say that it's a combination of things, which is that he is a second term president, and second term presidents are always different than first terms because you're not worrying about running reelection, despite what Steve Bannon said on News Nation the other night, which makes no sense at all. So yes, you're going to be relieved a little bit of the political pressure of having to run for office. At the same time, you'd really like your party to remain in power in the House, so you still watch it a little bit. But when anybody from the White House comes out from either party and says we don't watch the markets on a day, the market goes down a thousand points. What that means is they're absolutely watching the markets very good.

And then when you see also, and we're going to talk about this a little bit later too, and you're seeing what's happening when you talk about the midterms, are some of these town halls, and you know, what is your reaction for these Republicans that do actually go out there though, and they they listen to it. And now you're seeing it on the Democratic side as.

And then when you see also, and we're going to talk about this a little bit later too, and you're seeing what's happening when you talk about the midterms, are some of these town halls, and you know, what is your reaction for these Republicans that do actually go out there though, and they they listen to it. And now you're seeing it on the Democratic side as.

Well, and they should go out when I can't remember when the word came down to some of the Republican members that maybe you cancel your town hall meetings. I had really sort of dramatic flashbacks from two thousand and nine when I was running for Congress against the then sitting budget chairman, and here summer exactly, and the Democrat leadership told the Democrats the same thing. And one of the reasons I'm sitting here today is because the Democrats were afraid to do town halls. Okay, I think it's terrible advice. Go out, take your lumps. Yes, we know that there's Democrat of activists in the crowd. Everybody knows it. Okay, go out. If you're in a purple district, you have to do it. Anyway, if you're a red district, what difference does it make go out and take the lumps. So, yeah, there's a really bad precedent that we should be following, which is if you stay home, you run the risk of getting your teeth kicked into November.

Well, and they should go out when I can't remember when the word came down to some of the Republican members that maybe you cancel your town hall meetings. I had really sort of dramatic flashbacks from two thousand and nine when I was running for Congress against the then sitting budget chairman, and here summer exactly, and the Democrat leadership told the Democrats the same thing. And one of the reasons I'm sitting here today is because the Democrats were afraid to do town halls. Okay, I think it's terrible advice. Go out, take your lumps. Yes, we know that there's Democrat of activists in the crowd. Everybody knows it. Okay, go out. If you're in a purple district, you have to do it. Anyway, if you're a red district, what difference does it make go out and take the lumps. So, yeah, there's a really bad precedent that we should be following, which is if you stay home, you run the risk of getting your teeth kicked into November.

Looks like that's exactly what they're doing, is ducking and covering. Although I saw Mike Flood, the couple of these members are still going out there.

Looks like that's exactly what they're doing, is ducking and covering. Although I saw Mike Flood, the couple of these members are still going out there.

Do you do a teletown all God bless Yeah.

Do you do a teletown all God bless Yeah.

By the way, that's a great question, and it is a great compromise because that takes the performance theater out of it.

By the way, that's a great question, and it is a great compromise because that takes the performance theater out of it.

Interesting.

Interesting.

I talked to Don Bacon from Nebraska and he said, I'm doing all teletown halls meeting number one. I can talk to more people that way. It's easier for people to get to me because they can do it from their house, and I take away the showmanship there. I don't have to deal with the people who are there to sort of put on a show for their own left wileaning social media page, and that's smart.

I talked to Don Bacon from Nebraska and he said, I'm doing all teletown halls meeting number one. I can talk to more people that way. It's easier for people to get to me because they can do it from their house, and I take away the showmanship there. I don't have to deal with the people who are there to sort of put on a show for their own left wileaning social media page, and that's smart.

No local news cameras to manage news can.

No local news cameras to manage news can.

Still follow it well, you can still make news, but you don't maybe have the grand standing to your point, Mick Maulvaney with us in studio.

Still follow it well, you can still make news, but you don't maybe have the grand standing to your point, Mick Maulvaney with us in studio.

It's always a great pleasure.

It's always a great pleasure.

Former acting White House Chief of Staff, of course, former OMB director, co founder of the Freedom Caucus, gentleman and a scholar.

Former acting White House Chief of Staff, of course, former OMB director, co founder of the Freedom Caucus, gentleman and a scholar.

Great to see you.

Great to see you.

It's always good to be here.

It's always good to be here.

Don't be a stranger with Julie Fine. I'm Joe, Billie.

Don't be a stranger with Julie Fine. I'm Joe, Billie.

Glad that you're with us here on the fastest show in politics, this is Balance of Power.

Glad that you're with us here on the fastest show in politics, this is Balance of Power.

We'll have a lot more straight ahead.

We'll have a lot more straight ahead.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on Apple, Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on Apple, Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.

Thank you for being with us on the Thursday edition of Balance on Some Power on Bloomberg TV and Radio. I'm Joe, Matthew and Washington alongside Julie Fine today as we keep our eyes on Ukraine. Remembering this was the top story at this time yesterday, President Trump's phone call with President Zelenski. We've been trying to get our heads around what we heard here, including whether Donald Trump actually spoke at length with President Zelenski, knowing that the Secretary of State and President's national security advisor apparently handled a good chunk of that call. The headline on the terminal today and it's one that we thought about yesterday as he referred to nuclear power plants coming under US ownership Russia and Ukraine keep up drone attacks, Trump's Lensky moving beyond minerals deal, and then the idea of Zaparisa being run by the Americans. Is that where we're going here, Juliet's an interesting story that we're talking about because it keeps changing under our feet. The drive to sign a minerals deal is now apparently on the back burner.

Thank you for being with us on the Thursday edition of Balance on Some Power on Bloomberg TV and Radio. I'm Joe, Matthew and Washington alongside Julie Fine today as we keep our eyes on Ukraine. Remembering this was the top story at this time yesterday, President Trump's phone call with President Zelenski. We've been trying to get our heads around what we heard here, including whether Donald Trump actually spoke at length with President Zelenski, knowing that the Secretary of State and President's national security advisor apparently handled a good chunk of that call. The headline on the terminal today and it's one that we thought about yesterday as he referred to nuclear power plants coming under US ownership Russia and Ukraine keep up drone attacks, Trump's Lensky moving beyond minerals deal, and then the idea of Zaparisa being run by the Americans. Is that where we're going here, Juliet's an interesting story that we're talking about because it keeps changing under our feet. The drive to sign a minerals deal is now apparently on the back burner.

Well, and it's also happening when there was so much tension between President Zelenski and President Trump. So now all of a sudden, everything's supposed.

Well, and it's also happening when there was so much tension between President Zelenski and President Trump. So now all of a sudden, everything's supposed.

To turn around and we're going to be doing this.

To turn around and we're going to be doing this.

I just think we don't even understand Joe their relationship right now. So how do you even discuss a ceasefire what's going to happen next? When you're not even sure what exactly happened in the call, and you're hearing it from a national security advisor and you're hearing it more from the Secretary of State.

I just think we don't even understand Joe their relationship right now. So how do you even discuss a ceasefire what's going to happen next? When you're not even sure what exactly happened in the call, and you're hearing it from a national security advisor and you're hearing it more from the Secretary of State.

I mean to be a fly.

I mean to be a fly.

On that ball on that phone call might explain if things have improved even somewhat after their last visit in the White House.

On that ball on that phone call might explain if things have improved even somewhat after their last visit in the White House.

Well.

Well.

Striking difference too, between the call that President Trump had with Zelensky in a day earlier with Putin, in which they spent time not only talking about a potential economic partnership, but hockey. I mean, this was clearly and it went on for many hours. Yesterday was just about ninety minutes with other principles on the line, So clearly we're talking about two different relationships here. The question is what will it lead to. Parties get together March twenty fourth for the next set of meetings.

Striking difference too, between the call that President Trump had with Zelensky in a day earlier with Putin, in which they spent time not only talking about a potential economic partnership, but hockey. I mean, this was clearly and it went on for many hours. Yesterday was just about ninety minutes with other principles on the line, So clearly we're talking about two different relationships here. The question is what will it lead to. Parties get together March twenty fourth for the next set of meetings.

It is interesting that you bring up hockey because it obviously shows that they have things to talk about out much more so than just the current events of the world. So obviously they get along much better and they have a lot more in common. So it's interesting that it veered in that direction. Obviously not a major part of the call, but didn't make the headline.

It is interesting that you bring up hockey because it obviously shows that they have things to talk about out much more so than just the current events of the world. So obviously they get along much better and they have a lot more in common. So it's interesting that it veered in that direction. Obviously not a major part of the call, but didn't make the headline.

You said it, Yeah, I did say it.

You said it, Yeah, I did say it.

So joining us now is Melissa Herring. Thank you so much for being with us. We really appreciate your time, Senior fellow at the Atlanta Council's Eurasia Center, Senior advisor at Rosenin for Ukraine.

So joining us now is Melissa Herring. Thank you so much for being with us. We really appreciate your time, Senior fellow at the Atlanta Council's Eurasia Center, Senior advisor at Rosenin for Ukraine.

We really appreciate you being here. I kind of want to start.

We really appreciate you being here. I kind of want to start.

With that with you.

With that with you.

I want to talk to you about what you think the relationship are is between President Zelenski and President Trump now and what Joe called the contrast with putin Julie.

I want to talk to you about what you think the relationship are is between President Zelenski and President Trump now and what Joe called the contrast with putin Julie.

It's great to be here, So the relationship is changing.

It's great to be here, So the relationship is changing.

It doesn't take much to remember that horrible meeting on the twenty eighth of February between Zelensky, the shout off right between Zelensky and Trump.

It doesn't take much to remember that horrible meeting on the twenty eighth of February between Zelensky, the shout off right between Zelensky and Trump.

It couldn't have gone worse, and Zelensky did make some mistakes. He should have used it interpreter. He's not a very fluent English speaker.

It couldn't have gone worse, and Zelensky did make some mistakes. He should have used it interpreter. He's not a very fluent English speaker.

But I think you're right. I think you put your finger on something. They don't have a natural fluency. There's not a warmth between the two guys, and I think Ukraine is aware of that. So what we said we didn't see very much coming out of the meeting. We're sort of putting the pieces together. But the Zepparisia piece, the nuclear power plant piece, is a surprise. This is the first that I've heard of it. I've been to Zepparisia. I can't think of any historical precedent where the US might run a foreign power plant in a country where the territory is disputed.

But I think you're right. I think you put your finger on something. They don't have a natural fluency. There's not a warmth between the two guys, and I think Ukraine is aware of that. So what we said we didn't see very much coming out of the meeting. We're sort of putting the pieces together. But the Zepparisia piece, the nuclear power plant piece, is a surprise. This is the first that I've heard of it. I've been to Zepparisia. I can't think of any historical precedent where the US might run a foreign power plant in a country where the territory is disputed.

It's just weird to be honest.

It's just weird to be honest.

Well, we've talked a lot about that plant when it was being used essentially as a bargaining chip here and in fact was being fired upon and shelled at one point by Russia, pulled power from You know, this is obviously more than just a power planet could be the center of the conflict to a certain degree. Is that the president's idea of a security guarantee that we're not going to have troops on the ground, But hey, if we own the power plant, nobody is going to come around there.

Well, we've talked a lot about that plant when it was being used essentially as a bargaining chip here and in fact was being fired upon and shelled at one point by Russia, pulled power from You know, this is obviously more than just a power planet could be the center of the conflict to a certain degree. Is that the president's idea of a security guarantee that we're not going to have troops on the ground, But hey, if we own the power plant, nobody is going to come around there.

I don't think it's quite that thoughtful, Joe.

I don't think it's quite that thoughtful, Joe.

So we have to remember President Trump is a maximalist and he likes to go into negotiations and try to figure out what's possible.

So we have to remember President Trump is a maximalist and he likes to go into negotiations and try to figure out what's possible.

So I think that the.

So I think that the.

Nuclear power plant is the largest in Europe, so it's sort of caught his eye from that perspective. Zupporisia is within artillery range of the Russians, so it's pretty close and it's very dangerous, and as you said, the danger goes up and down. The Russians have used it as a bargaining chip. Yeah, they threaten it, they turn it on and off.

Nuclear power plant is the largest in Europe, so it's sort of caught his eye from that perspective. Zupporisia is within artillery range of the Russians, so it's pretty close and it's very dangerous, and as you said, the danger goes up and down. The Russians have used it as a bargaining chip. Yeah, they threaten it, they turn it on and off.

We've talked about.

We've talked about.

Ask Donald Trump to acquire the plant. Did putin ask for this?

Ask Donald Trump to acquire the plant. Did putin ask for this?

I don't know.

I don't know.

I haven't heard that. I think it's important though, to zoom out a little bit more so. We're in the middle of these intense negotiations. Trump talks, he's talked to the Russian side, he's talked to the Ukrainian side, But the bigger picture is important. The frontline in Ukraine is not going to collapse, so the Ukrainians are not They should not feel like they're under pressure to come to some kind of bad deal right now. Zelensky was right in the White House to focus on security guarantees. He needs real security guarantees. You and I've talked at length about NATO. It's off the table, both for the Americans and the Germans. So what's the next best thing Ukraine can get in terms of security guarantees. It's European troops.

I haven't heard that. I think it's important though, to zoom out a little bit more so. We're in the middle of these intense negotiations. Trump talks, he's talked to the Russian side, he's talked to the Ukrainian side, But the bigger picture is important. The frontline in Ukraine is not going to collapse, so the Ukrainians are not They should not feel like they're under pressure to come to some kind of bad deal right now. Zelensky was right in the White House to focus on security guarantees. He needs real security guarantees. You and I've talked at length about NATO. It's off the table, both for the Americans and the Germans. So what's the next best thing Ukraine can get in terms of security guarantees. It's European troops.

On the ground. But Trump doesn't like that. So we're sort of stuck right now. So if what do you do when you're stuck? What do you do you? Yeah, I mean really what I mean?

On the ground. But Trump doesn't like that. So we're sort of stuck right now. So if what do you do when you're stuck? What do you do you? Yeah, I mean really what I mean?

You continue to have these conversations, But when you stay stuck for this long, you continue to be at war, what is your option, especially.

You continue to have these conversations, But when you stay stuck for this long, you continue to be at war, what is your option, especially.

With the change in presidency, So the Ukrainians are going to continue to fight. So even if a deal, a y Alta like deal is cut between Moscow and Washington and the Ukrainians are completely cut out of it, Ukrainians will continue to fight because this is existential, Julie. They have no other alternative and they can continue to fight with Europe's help. So that's the bottom line is I expect this fighting to continue.

With the change in presidency, So the Ukrainians are going to continue to fight. So even if a deal, a y Alta like deal is cut between Moscow and Washington and the Ukrainians are completely cut out of it, Ukrainians will continue to fight because this is existential, Julie. They have no other alternative and they can continue to fight with Europe's help. So that's the bottom line is I expect this fighting to continue.

The next set of meetings March twenty fourth, As I mentioned, does this move the ball? Is it going to be Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin? Will there be a meeting with Ukraine at the table?

The next set of meetings March twenty fourth, As I mentioned, does this move the ball? Is it going to be Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin? Will there be a meeting with Ukraine at the table?

Good question.

Good question.

So the last story I saw was that two of the principles, not Trump, were headed back to talk.

So the last story I saw was that two of the principles, not Trump, were headed back to talk.

I don't know.

I don't know.

This is an evolving story and I don't think we know the exact shape of it.

This is an evolving story and I don't think we know the exact shape of it.

You know, the Ukrainians have learned from their mistakes.

You know, the Ukrainians have learned from their mistakes.

I think they realized that they were too aggressive in Washington and they need to be more respectful. Even though Joe, it's really interesting I called everyone in Ukraine after that disastrous White House call, and Ukrainians from Zelensky's Porshenko, President Porshenko and Zelensky really dislike each other and they have no love loss. Porshenko went on Aaron and said, I cannot say anything negative about him.

I think they realized that they were too aggressive in Washington and they need to be more respectful. Even though Joe, it's really interesting I called everyone in Ukraine after that disastrous White House call, and Ukrainians from Zelensky's Porshenko, President Porshenko and Zelensky really dislike each other and they have no love loss. Porshenko went on Aaron and said, I cannot say anything negative about him.

The entire political elite felt like Zelensky did the right thing well.

The entire political elite felt like Zelensky did the right thing well.

And also at that point you do have to remember too, and you remember Joe that day, I mean, European leader after lead or stood up and said we support Ukraine.

And also at that point you do have to remember too, and you remember Joe that day, I mean, European leader after lead or stood up and said we support Ukraine.

Right, absolutely absolutely, And we've seen Europe wake up. So Europe knows that it cannot rely on Washington for its security anymore. And we see the Germans authorizing the use of tourist missiles, we see them putting forward, overcoming their reluctance to have a budget deficit. That's a really big deal. We see Macron trying to be the leader of Europe as well. I don't think we know the shape of this, but Zelensky is trying very hard to be more conciliatory and tried to come up with some kind of real security guarantee. So I think it's possible that we're going to see Washington and Moscow come up with something, and Europe and Key have come up with something interesting.

Right, absolutely absolutely, And we've seen Europe wake up. So Europe knows that it cannot rely on Washington for its security anymore. And we see the Germans authorizing the use of tourist missiles, we see them putting forward, overcoming their reluctance to have a budget deficit. That's a really big deal. We see Macron trying to be the leader of Europe as well. I don't think we know the shape of this, but Zelensky is trying very hard to be more conciliatory and tried to come up with some kind of real security guarantee. So I think it's possible that we're going to see Washington and Moscow come up with something, and Europe and Key have come up with something interesting.

And I bet they don't look a lot alike.

And I bet they don't look a lot alike.

No, I don't think so.

No, I don't think so.

We hit power plants.

We hit power plants.

But on Air Force one last weekend, Donald Trump said, we're talking about dividing up land and power plants. These are the two things I guess that were to be discussed on the call. We talk about dividing up land. It doesn't sound like much is going to be divided. It sounds like Russia might well take all the land that it has occupied.

But on Air Force one last weekend, Donald Trump said, we're talking about dividing up land and power plants. These are the two things I guess that were to be discussed on the call. We talk about dividing up land. It doesn't sound like much is going to be divided. It sounds like Russia might well take all the land that it has occupied.

Is that not true?

Is that not true?

So let's talk about two different pieces, Joe.

So let's talk about two different pieces, Joe.

So we have Crimea, which is the peninsula the booth that Russia illegally annexed back in twenty fourteen. You remember they held a sham referendum. He said it's Russia, it's ours now. So the international community has said no, and the status of it is disputed. But there's been a huge population transfer and Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars have moved to Ukraine itself, and there was a huge shipment of Russian mostly security officers, who came in and have displaced them on the peninsula.

So we have Crimea, which is the peninsula the booth that Russia illegally annexed back in twenty fourteen. You remember they held a sham referendum. He said it's Russia, it's ours now. So the international community has said no, and the status of it is disputed. But there's been a huge population transfer and Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars have moved to Ukraine itself, and there was a huge shipment of Russian mostly security officers, who came in and have displaced them on the peninsula.

And it's become a hardened security state.

And it's become a hardened security state.

And then we have twenty percent of Ukraine that's illegally occupied by Russia. And Putin in twenty two said he held fake referenda and said these are ours. So those are the bargaining chips, and Zelinski said, I'm not giving up any territory.

And then we have twenty percent of Ukraine that's illegally occupied by Russia. And Putin in twenty two said he held fake referenda and said these are ours. So those are the bargaining chips, and Zelinski said, I'm not giving up any territory.

So that's the piece that we're at now. Putin does not control all four of those oblasts.

So that's the piece that we're at now. Putin does not control all four of those oblasts.

There's still pieces of them that he hasn't taken. And like I said, the front line is prety stable and it's not going to collapse anytime soon. So I think we're I think Trump is sort of put he's pushing the Ukrainians. Yeah right, he's put he pulled Intel support out. He's he's threatening them and trying to force them to a deal. But frankly they shouldn't agree to a deal yet.

There's still pieces of them that he hasn't taken. And like I said, the front line is prety stable and it's not going to collapse anytime soon. So I think we're I think Trump is sort of put he's pushing the Ukrainians. Yeah right, he's put he pulled Intel support out. He's he's threatening them and trying to force them to a deal. But frankly they shouldn't agree to a deal yet.

Let's say that Ukraine loses Crimea and the Dune Boss, does it keep the land in the Curse region that it's occupied.

Let's say that Ukraine loses Crimea and the Dune Boss, does it keep the land in the Curse region that it's occupied.

No, they don't have much land left and Curse right, they only have a tiny piece.

No, they don't have much land left and Curse right, they only have a tiny piece.

It sounds like Ukraine gains nothing in this deal.

It sounds like Ukraine gains nothing in this deal.

Ukraine does. I can't understand what they get out of this deal. They haven't been promised to anything, so you know, so it's a negotiation.

Ukraine does. I can't understand what they get out of this deal. They haven't been promised to anything, so you know, so it's a negotiation.

It's it's a negotiation, right, I mean you think that they're just waiting to see if they can get something else or something better for them and hold on the front line.

It's it's a negotiation, right, I mean you think that they're just waiting to see if they can get something else or something better for them and hold on the front line.

I think that's the Ukrainian position is we will continue to fight. We have the will.

I think that's the Ukrainian position is we will continue to fight. We have the will.

They don't have enough meant manpowered. They do have a manpower shortage. But I've been I just got back from the front line about a month ago, and they have enough attack drones and they have enough one to fifty five millimeter ammunition. So this is massively different than it was a year ago. And this is thanks to US support. So the situation has changed. And one other sort of factoid that was interesting is the Ukrainians are getting really good with their drones. Fifty percent of the kills are from Ukrainian drones.

They don't have enough meant manpowered. They do have a manpower shortage. But I've been I just got back from the front line about a month ago, and they have enough attack drones and they have enough one to fifty five millimeter ammunition. So this is massively different than it was a year ago. And this is thanks to US support. So the situation has changed. And one other sort of factoid that was interesting is the Ukrainians are getting really good with their drones. Fifty percent of the kills are from Ukrainian drones.

Now, was it smart in the end to provide F sixteen's and one Abrams tank some of the other weapons platforms that were doubted as being a help to the Ukrainians instead of what you just talked about, shells, missile interceptors, long range missiles.

Now, was it smart in the end to provide F sixteen's and one Abrams tank some of the other weapons platforms that were doubted as being a help to the Ukrainians instead of what you just talked about, shells, missile interceptors, long range missiles.

So they should have provided the Biden administration should have provided all this kit and much sooner. I went to Harkiev, which is the second largest city up in the north, and Joe every taxi cab driver, every volunteer, every army man and woman I talked to said thank you, thank you, thank you.

So they should have provided the Biden administration should have provided all this kit and much sooner. I went to Harkiev, which is the second largest city up in the north, and Joe every taxi cab driver, every volunteer, every army man and woman I talked to said thank you, thank you, thank you.

Please tell Joe Biden thank you.

Please tell Joe Biden thank you.

His decision to allow Kiev to use US rockets to shoot into Russia was a game changer. We went from living in the shelters underground for hundreds of days and our lives are relatively normal. The security situation in Harkiev has completely changed because of Joe Biden's decision.

His decision to allow Kiev to use US rockets to shoot into Russia was a game changer. We went from living in the shelters underground for hundreds of days and our lives are relatively normal. The security situation in Harkiev has completely changed because of Joe Biden's decision.

You couldn't reach Joe Biden. I'm guessing no.

You couldn't reach Joe Biden. I'm guessing no.

I hope he's listening today.

I hope he's listening today.

But I don't know if that's the case. He's got a lot to do.

But I don't know if that's the case. He's got a lot to do.

But I want to kind of return to how you say, the manpower in the front lines holds for now, right.

But I want to kind of return to how you say, the manpower in the front lines holds for now, right.

I mean there, how long does it hold? How long can this.

I mean there, how long does it hold? How long can this.

Goo as they try to figure out and the sides come together or attempt to come together and find some sort of agreement, and the land stays.

Goo as they try to figure out and the sides come together or attempt to come together and find some sort of agreement, and the land stays.

Where it is, So, Julie, I have to use a lot of ifs, and I know that journalists don't like it when I put conditions in. But if US continues to allow Ukraine to have INTEL support, which is a big if Ukraine can last to at least this summer. I don't expect another package of assistance though from Congress.

Where it is, So, Julie, I have to use a lot of ifs, and I know that journalists don't like it when I put conditions in. But if US continues to allow Ukraine to have INTEL support, which is a big if Ukraine can last to at least this summer. I don't expect another package of assistance though from Congress.

Well, thank you very much for being with us. We appreciate you going through reason spending all the time with us.

Well, thank you very much for being with us. We appreciate you going through reason spending all the time with us.

Mom doglause, Thank you.

Mom doglause, Thank you.

Melinda Herring, Senior Fellow, Atlantic Councils Eurasia Center, Senior Advisor RASUM for Ukraine.

Melinda Herring, Senior Fellow, Atlantic Councils Eurasia Center, Senior Advisor RASUM for Ukraine.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power Podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on Apple Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station Just Say Alexa, played Bloomberg eleven thirty.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power Podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on Apple Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station Just Say Alexa, played Bloomberg eleven thirty.

Watching shares of Invidia. Well that's just any old day, but for a whole other reason. Today, with news originally coming out of the Ft interesting interview with Jensen Wong. Boys been doing a lot of talking this week. Of course, it's the Big AI Developers Conference taking place in San Jose. He had the big keynote the other night and it's resulted in a series of headlines that have followed here.

Watching shares of Invidia. Well that's just any old day, but for a whole other reason. Today, with news originally coming out of the Ft interesting interview with Jensen Wong. Boys been doing a lot of talking this week. Of course, it's the Big AI Developers Conference taking place in San Jose. He had the big keynote the other night and it's resulted in a series of headlines that have followed here.

Most recently this we call this reshoring.

Most recently this we call this reshoring.

I don't know exactly where I have to go back to my glossary on this. But Nvidia is now planning to spend hundreds of billions of dollars around error for this company to procure US made chips and electronics to make this stuff here. Now you start thinking about the political implications of this. What's driving Jensen Wong to do it? Remember he had a meeting with President Trump now all that long ago at the White House, and of course a drive here to secure investment specifically in technology. When we think about AI crypto, this is something that has the President's attention, and it always has Mike Shepherd's attention. As soon as I saw this story today, I thought, well, well, let's see what Nvidia is doing. By the way, it was lower pre market hasn't been a big mover. But the Washington side of this story is actually fascinating. That's why we turned to Bloomberg Senior editor for Technology and Strategic Industries. Shep as we call them in the newsroom, welcome back, sir. I can't get through a show without having a call you to come on. You have the most important beat in town at the moment, and well, hundreds of billions of dollars is nothing to sneeze at when you think about the investment from Oracle from op AI. Now this is the White House actually driving this.

I don't know exactly where I have to go back to my glossary on this. But Nvidia is now planning to spend hundreds of billions of dollars around error for this company to procure US made chips and electronics to make this stuff here. Now you start thinking about the political implications of this. What's driving Jensen Wong to do it? Remember he had a meeting with President Trump now all that long ago at the White House, and of course a drive here to secure investment specifically in technology. When we think about AI crypto, this is something that has the President's attention, and it always has Mike Shepherd's attention. As soon as I saw this story today, I thought, well, well, let's see what Nvidia is doing. By the way, it was lower pre market hasn't been a big mover. But the Washington side of this story is actually fascinating. That's why we turned to Bloomberg Senior editor for Technology and Strategic Industries. Shep as we call them in the newsroom, welcome back, sir. I can't get through a show without having a call you to come on. You have the most important beat in town at the moment, and well, hundreds of billions of dollars is nothing to sneeze at when you think about the investment from Oracle from op AI. Now this is the White House actually driving this.

It's unclear whether the White House is driving this, but it is certainly music to President Donald Trump's ears. He has been calling for the US to maintain its dominance in AI and related technologies and really pushing for companies to do their business and investment here. Now, interesting thing about this, Remember, Nvidia does not actually make its own semiconductors, that designs them, and it has mainly TSMC make the AI semiconductors that are we're seeing deployed by the companies that you just mentioned, Open AI and others. Now TSMC about two weeks ago and nounce c C way with this big appearance at the White House alongside Trump and said he was going to spend an additional one hundred billion dollars on factories here in the US for both chip manufacturing and packaging, two key phases of the of the process. Now, TSMC, of course is in Vidia's primary customer, and so now you know when it comes to chip making.

It's unclear whether the White House is driving this, but it is certainly music to President Donald Trump's ears. He has been calling for the US to maintain its dominance in AI and related technologies and really pushing for companies to do their business and investment here. Now, interesting thing about this, Remember, Nvidia does not actually make its own semiconductors, that designs them, and it has mainly TSMC make the AI semiconductors that are we're seeing deployed by the companies that you just mentioned, Open AI and others. Now TSMC about two weeks ago and nounce c C way with this big appearance at the White House alongside Trump and said he was going to spend an additional one hundred billion dollars on factories here in the US for both chip manufacturing and packaging, two key phases of the of the process. Now, TSMC, of course is in Vidia's primary customer, and so now you know when it comes to chip making.

They rely on TSMC.

They rely on TSMC.

TSMC builds these factories here whose chips are they going to make, so it is very logical that a lot of this production would be for um Vidia. And with the amount that in Video is selling and producing these days, with hard to satiate demand for AI chips and related products, you know, it's natural that you're going to see a figure like the one that Jensen wants.

TSMC builds these factories here whose chips are they going to make, so it is very logical that a lot of this production would be for um Vidia. And with the amount that in Video is selling and producing these days, with hard to satiate demand for AI chips and related products, you know, it's natural that you're going to see a figure like the one that Jensen wants.

Would this essentially be an announcement in tandem with TSMC, as in Vidia subsidizing some of these foundries, or will it in fact start building some of its own.

Would this essentially be an announcement in tandem with TSMC, as in Vidia subsidizing some of these foundries, or will it in fact start building some of its own.

No, it's really just getting TSMC to produce. It's those chips here. But TSMC was already counting on a Video to be a key customer and had said so on the day, and a Video said on the day of that announcement that we are looking forward to working with TSMC, but we hadn't heard a number associated with it.

No, it's really just getting TSMC to produce. It's those chips here. But TSMC was already counting on a Video to be a key customer and had said so on the day, and a Video said on the day of that announcement that we are looking forward to working with TSMC, but we hadn't heard a number associated with it.

Now.

Now.

What's interesting about that is that it comes at a really key moment for in Video. They're facing a lot of questions about whether the AI boom will keep up.

What's interesting about that is that it comes at a really key moment for in Video. They're facing a lot of questions about whether the AI boom will keep up.

Of course, Deep Seek, you know.

Of course, Deep Seek, you know.

Really rattled investors back in January who started the question about whether there would be as much need for all those AI chips. Could AI be done on the cheap with far fewer accelerators and processors than have been needed before by the big hyper scalers. But Jensen Wong said this week several times, and even told investors as they released earnings at the end of last month that look, this is a great breakthrough, but once you start the scale and put it to function and actual use, you are going to need all of those chips and more. The demand will keep going and they will continue to.

Really rattled investors back in January who started the question about whether there would be as much need for all those AI chips. Could AI be done on the cheap with far fewer accelerators and processors than have been needed before by the big hyper scalers. But Jensen Wong said this week several times, and even told investors as they released earnings at the end of last month that look, this is a great breakthrough, but once you start the scale and put it to function and actual use, you are going to need all of those chips and more. The demand will keep going and they will continue to.

See bants in Vidia's capacity. Or will it actually be taking business that's going on in Taiwan and bringing it here to the US. Will it be in addition to or replacement.

See bants in Vidia's capacity. Or will it actually be taking business that's going on in Taiwan and bringing it here to the US. Will it be in addition to or replacement.

Of You know, that's a good question.

Of You know, that's a good question.

It's certainly one that authorities in Taiwan are wrestling with, is they go to the nervous about this. There is some discomfort about this. Seeing this big investment by a national champion here in the US rather than back home did ruffle some feathers. But the way that some Taiwanese officials and the and certainly the Ambassador to Taiwan whom we spoke with yesterday for a print discussion, their view is that look, this is a creed, if not deluded, this is something that will add to capabilities.