This is Snaffo, a show about history's greatest screw ups. I'm at Helms. This past season we covered the daring heist that uncovered a colossal FBI snaffo. Today we're back with our final bonus episode of the season. But before we dive in, I just want to add, even though it's our final bonus episode, do not fret because there's a new season coming very soon, plus a whole lot of other cool stuff. So stay tuned. Okay, Now back to it. As listeners will probably recall, co Intelpro was officially shut down after being exposed in nineteen seventy one, and j Edgar Hoover actually died in nineteen seventy two, but sadly it would take a little longer for actual reform to kick in. For a number of years, the agency was still upholding many of Hoover's dirty tricks. Nowhere was this more evident than in their interactions with the American Indian Movement or AIM, as well as the greater Native American community. To help us understand how co intel pros legacy unfortunately endured in this way, we're honored to be speaking to Nick Estes. Nick is an assistant professor of American Indian Studies at the University of Minnesota and hosts the Red Nation podcast. To start out, I would love for you to introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about your background and what it is you do.

This is Snaffo, a show about history's greatest screw ups. I'm at Helms. This past season we covered the daring heist that uncovered a colossal FBI snaffo. Today we're back with our final bonus episode of the season. But before we dive in, I just want to add, even though it's our final bonus episode, do not fret because there's a new season coming very soon, plus a whole lot of other cool stuff. So stay tuned. Okay, Now back to it. As listeners will probably recall, co Intelpro was officially shut down after being exposed in nineteen seventy one, and j Edgar Hoover actually died in nineteen seventy two, but sadly it would take a little longer for actual reform to kick in. For a number of years, the agency was still upholding many of Hoover's dirty tricks. Nowhere was this more evident than in their interactions with the American Indian Movement or AIM, as well as the greater Native American community. To help us understand how co intel pros legacy unfortunately endured in this way, we're honored to be speaking to Nick Estes. Nick is an assistant professor of American Indian Studies at the University of Minnesota and hosts the Red Nation podcast. To start out, I would love for you to introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about your background and what it is you do.

My name's Nick Gustus. I am a member of the Lawbrual Sioux tribe. I was born and raised in South Dakota. I'm currently an American Indian Studies professor assistant professor at the University of Minnesota, and I'm currently working on a book about the history of the American Indian Movement.

My name's Nick Gustus. I am a member of the Lawbrual Sioux tribe. I was born and raised in South Dakota. I'm currently an American Indian Studies professor assistant professor at the University of Minnesota, and I'm currently working on a book about the history of the American Indian Movement.

What led you down this path?

What led you down this path?

Well, two of my grandfathers were writers. One published the first history of the Lorberal subtribe in nineteen sixty three and the other published another history in nineteen seventy two. So in some ways, you know, it's kind of a family tradition. But also I was an anti war protester back when the United States invaded Rock for the second time, and I kind of just stayed in school after that.

Well, two of my grandfathers were writers. One published the first history of the Lorberal subtribe in nineteen sixty three and the other published another history in nineteen seventy two. So in some ways, you know, it's kind of a family tradition. But also I was an anti war protester back when the United States invaded Rock for the second time, and I kind of just stayed in school after that.

Went on to get a PhD. Right on.

Went on to get a PhD. Right on.

Well, as you know, this season of SNAFU goes into considerable depth about the status of j Edgar Hoover's FBI in the nineteen seventies and many of the ways that it was overtly nefarious, oftentimes operating fully outside of the law. This of course exemplified by co Intel pro or the counterintelligence program, the FBI surveillance program in the sixties and seventies that targeted various political groups such as the Black Panthers, anti Vietnam protesters, civil rights demonstrators. But I'm really excited to talk with you today about how the Native American community experienced the FBI at that time and really throughout the twentieth century, which is quite fascinating and complex. Let's start at the beginning. The FBI's origin story actually dovetails with a major incident in twentieth century Native American history, the Osage murders throughout the nineteen tens, twenties, and thirties. Now, a lot of people will be familiar with this story from the recent Martin Scorsese movie Killers of the Flower Moon. So tell us a little bit about the early interactions between the Bureau and Native Americans and also what did the film get right and or wrong.

Well, as you know, this season of SNAFU goes into considerable depth about the status of j Edgar Hoover's FBI in the nineteen seventies and many of the ways that it was overtly nefarious, oftentimes operating fully outside of the law. This of course exemplified by co Intel pro or the counterintelligence program, the FBI surveillance program in the sixties and seventies that targeted various political groups such as the Black Panthers, anti Vietnam protesters, civil rights demonstrators. But I'm really excited to talk with you today about how the Native American community experienced the FBI at that time and really throughout the twentieth century, which is quite fascinating and complex. Let's start at the beginning. The FBI's origin story actually dovetails with a major incident in twentieth century Native American history, the Osage murders throughout the nineteen tens, twenties, and thirties. Now, a lot of people will be familiar with this story from the recent Martin Scorsese movie Killers of the Flower Moon. So tell us a little bit about the early interactions between the Bureau and Native Americans and also what did the film get right and or wrong.

Many people have probably seen this film. I started watching it, but I couldn't watch it I couldn't. It's hard for me to watch the killing, rape and torture of Native women over and over again on screen. It's not some thing I find very entertaining. But I do think that the movie itself kind of gets to this, or at least is trying to get to this history of murder, missing Indigenous women. I think what's missing in that film, at least from my perspective, is the advocacy of people like Zincali Shaw, who was born as Gertrude Bonnan. She was from the Yankton Sioux Reservation. She was an advocate, a Native woman who worked in Congress, who was a lobbyist, who is an activist, who actually interviewed some of the osage women who had been targeted by these men and really brought attention to this issue, and that's not in the film. It's also kind of propaganda for the FBI, because the FBI sees itself as sort of this crime fighting unit has a particular history with indigenous activists. But also the FBI, you know, according to its own people, was a political police force. It was about surveiling primarily Eastern European immigrants who were forming left progressive trade unions and parties, the communist parties, socialist anarchists, etc. And it was really about surveilling them and policing them as an internal threat. And in fact, the precursor to the FBI, I think it was called a Bureau of Investigations surveiled people like Zinc Coalishaw and people who were indigenous leaders and advocates in an organization called the Society of American Indians because at that time American Indians were not citizens of the United States, but we're advocating for rights within a constitutional framework. Some of them were pushing for citizenship, but they were very outspoken against the participation of American Indians in World War One. They said, why is it that we should volunteer and fight for this country when we're not even citizens. We don't even have Fifth Amendment rights. We can't even stand trial and bring treaty rights. So they were very critical and they wrote, you know, these newsletters, and it got to Jaeger Hoover's desks, and he sent people out to investigate these people under you know, crimes of sedition, you know, things like that.

Many people have probably seen this film. I started watching it, but I couldn't watch it I couldn't. It's hard for me to watch the killing, rape and torture of Native women over and over again on screen. It's not some thing I find very entertaining. But I do think that the movie itself kind of gets to this, or at least is trying to get to this history of murder, missing Indigenous women. I think what's missing in that film, at least from my perspective, is the advocacy of people like Zincali Shaw, who was born as Gertrude Bonnan. She was from the Yankton Sioux Reservation. She was an advocate, a Native woman who worked in Congress, who was a lobbyist, who is an activist, who actually interviewed some of the osage women who had been targeted by these men and really brought attention to this issue, and that's not in the film. It's also kind of propaganda for the FBI, because the FBI sees itself as sort of this crime fighting unit has a particular history with indigenous activists. But also the FBI, you know, according to its own people, was a political police force. It was about surveiling primarily Eastern European immigrants who were forming left progressive trade unions and parties, the communist parties, socialist anarchists, etc. And it was really about surveilling them and policing them as an internal threat. And in fact, the precursor to the FBI, I think it was called a Bureau of Investigations surveiled people like Zinc Coalishaw and people who were indigenous leaders and advocates in an organization called the Society of American Indians because at that time American Indians were not citizens of the United States, but we're advocating for rights within a constitutional framework. Some of them were pushing for citizenship, but they were very outspoken against the participation of American Indians in World War One. They said, why is it that we should volunteer and fight for this country when we're not even citizens. We don't even have Fifth Amendment rights. We can't even stand trial and bring treaty rights. So they were very critical and they wrote, you know, these newsletters, and it got to Jaeger Hoover's desks, and he sent people out to investigate these people under you know, crimes of sedition, you know, things like that.

So and this was in when is this exactly? This is in the ten tens or one of the.

So and this was in when is this exactly? This is in the ten tens or one of the.

Late nineteen tens, early nineteen twenties, because and.

Late nineteen tens, early nineteen twenties, because and.

This was all contemporaneous with the Osage murders.

This was all contemporaneous with the Osage murders.

Oh yeah, And I think you know, Zinklishaw is somebody who kind of gets written out of this history because she was a Native woman, She was an advocate, she was interviewing these.

Oh yeah, And I think you know, Zinklishaw is somebody who kind of gets written out of this history because she was a Native woman, She was an advocate, she was interviewing these.

People, she wrote a report to Congress.

People, she wrote a report to Congress.

She was threatened by the similar violence that was being enacted on O Sage people. And I think that's a much more compelling story because it shows that on the one hand, Native people weren't just sort of apless victims of violence, that they were trying to navigate the channels of power that existed.

She was threatened by the similar violence that was being enacted on O Sage people. And I think that's a much more compelling story because it shows that on the one hand, Native people weren't just sort of apless victims of violence, that they were trying to navigate the channels of power that existed.

Why is a story like that less visible in the historical narrative than a big story like the Osage murders.

Why is a story like that less visible in the historical narrative than a big story like the Osage murders.

Well, I would hope that someday they would make a movie about Zinkali Shah and the fact that a lot of people in this country don't even know who she is. If people know natives from that time period, they probably know somebody like Jim Thorpe, who was an Olympian, you know, a multi gold medal winner, And so I think it's important to know this particular history because on one hand, it also shows these other precursors to something like red power. That Red power didn't just emerge from the mists of history, but it was drawing from this long tradition of activism at the grassroots level and thinking about things like treaties, but also.

Well, I would hope that someday they would make a movie about Zinkali Shah and the fact that a lot of people in this country don't even know who she is. If people know natives from that time period, they probably know somebody like Jim Thorpe, who was an Olympian, you know, a multi gold medal winner, And so I think it's important to know this particular history because on one hand, it also shows these other precursors to something like red power. That Red power didn't just emerge from the mists of history, but it was drawing from this long tradition of activism at the grassroots level and thinking about things like treaties, but also.

Drawing the attention in the ire of the FBI.

Drawing the attention in the ire of the FBI.

All right, let's jump to the middle of the twentieth century. That's when we see the emergence of the American Indian Movement or AIM, which ultimately would become a point of considerable friction with the FBI. Tell us what the American Indian Movement is and why it formed.

All right, let's jump to the middle of the twentieth century. That's when we see the emergence of the American Indian Movement or AIM, which ultimately would become a point of considerable friction with the FBI. Tell us what the American Indian Movement is and why it formed.

So the American Indian Movement formed officially in nineteen sixty eight in northern Minneapolis, originally called it self Concerned Indian Americans, but the acronym was CIA, so they changed it to the American Indian Movement. But the co founders of people like Eddie Benton, Benet Clyde Belcourt, Dennis Banks were all incarcerated at one point in time together It's Stillwater prison. So they would argue that the American Indian Movement, the idea came out of the prison movement, and they created this group called the Culture Group, and they sort of made commitments that once they left prison, they were going to change their lives, and so they went into Minneapolis. At that time, there was a lot of Native people who were part of the union movement, like the Teamsters. There was the Teamsters rebellion in Minneapolis and the nineteen thirties.

So the American Indian Movement formed officially in nineteen sixty eight in northern Minneapolis, originally called it self Concerned Indian Americans, but the acronym was CIA, so they changed it to the American Indian Movement. But the co founders of people like Eddie Benton, Benet Clyde Belcourt, Dennis Banks were all incarcerated at one point in time together It's Stillwater prison. So they would argue that the American Indian Movement, the idea came out of the prison movement, and they created this group called the Culture Group, and they sort of made commitments that once they left prison, they were going to change their lives, and so they went into Minneapolis. At that time, there was a lot of Native people who were part of the union movement, like the Teamsters. There was the Teamsters rebellion in Minneapolis and the nineteen thirties.

Native people were part of that.

Native people were part of that.

Native people are part of unions, they're part of working class history, and so there was also a lot of community organizations that were centered around the family. And so when these men arrived on the scene, there already sort of existed in infrastructure and a complaint, so to speak, or an injury that Native people felt in Minneapolis. Because Minneapolis turned what is known as the East Phillips neighborhood into a sort of slum, things are being shifted around. Termination is happening at the same time where the federal government is trying to end its federal responsibilities with Native people. They're enticing Native people to leave their reservations on a relocation program. They found themselves in low income slum housing. They found themselves being targeted by these police raids that were happening on the weekends where a paddy wagon would literally just pull up to an Indian bar on Franklin Avenue and just start loading people in. Once the bar closed, people were getting beat people were getting discriminated against. Native children were being taken from their families and put into white foster care systems or into white homes. One study that came out in like the nineteen seventies found that between twenty five to thirty five percent of Native children had been taken from or removed from their families and placed into non Native homes. That's quite a bit. So it was three things. It was child removal, police violence, and urban poverty that led to the foundations of the American Indian Movement. And it wasn't just about a confrontation politics, even though that's kind of what one aim the headlines at the time when they began to confront police and began filming them and following them around as they portray rolled the Indian bars on the weekends. But they also began to form what were called survival schools, which was literally just Native families pooling together what small resources they had and setting up a formal school system. Because it was at public schools that Native children came under the surveillance of state officials, whether it was through the Department of Social Services, and that was the place where they begin these child removal processes. So it is known through the media and its representation by the FBI as a confrontational, sort of militant social movement, but that sort of overshadows the community work that it was doing on the ground and what won a lot of respect by community members themselves.

Native people are part of unions, they're part of working class history, and so there was also a lot of community organizations that were centered around the family. And so when these men arrived on the scene, there already sort of existed in infrastructure and a complaint, so to speak, or an injury that Native people felt in Minneapolis. Because Minneapolis turned what is known as the East Phillips neighborhood into a sort of slum, things are being shifted around. Termination is happening at the same time where the federal government is trying to end its federal responsibilities with Native people. They're enticing Native people to leave their reservations on a relocation program. They found themselves in low income slum housing. They found themselves being targeted by these police raids that were happening on the weekends where a paddy wagon would literally just pull up to an Indian bar on Franklin Avenue and just start loading people in. Once the bar closed, people were getting beat people were getting discriminated against. Native children were being taken from their families and put into white foster care systems or into white homes. One study that came out in like the nineteen seventies found that between twenty five to thirty five percent of Native children had been taken from or removed from their families and placed into non Native homes. That's quite a bit. So it was three things. It was child removal, police violence, and urban poverty that led to the foundations of the American Indian Movement. And it wasn't just about a confrontation politics, even though that's kind of what one aim the headlines at the time when they began to confront police and began filming them and following them around as they portray rolled the Indian bars on the weekends. But they also began to form what were called survival schools, which was literally just Native families pooling together what small resources they had and setting up a formal school system. Because it was at public schools that Native children came under the surveillance of state officials, whether it was through the Department of Social Services, and that was the place where they begin these child removal processes. So it is known through the media and its representation by the FBI as a confrontational, sort of militant social movement, but that sort of overshadows the community work that it was doing on the ground and what won a lot of respect by community members themselves.

I mean, you spoke in some depth about some of their initiatives. Is there an overarching sort of mission of the American Indian Movement and does that also have some misconceptions in the public discourse.

I mean, you spoke in some depth about some of their initiatives. Is there an overarching sort of mission of the American Indian Movement and does that also have some misconceptions in the public discourse.

So in nineteen seventy two, the American Indian Movement, as well as a coalition of various grassroots Native organizations, some of them even from Canada, like the Canadian Indian Brotherhood, participated in it. They drafted a twenty point policy framework called the Trail of Broken Treaties, and in it it sort of lays out point by point what was being advocated for. Number one priority was abolishing the Bureau of Indian Affairs. At that time period, the Bureau of Indian Affairs was largely responsible for plundering Native lands and implementing this termination system, assimilation, et cetera. We saw the outcome of like the twenty eleven you know, Cole Bell lawsuit that showed that the Bureau of Indian Affairs had been mismanaging. I think it was like over one hundred and seventy five billion dollars of what they could count on paper of Native assets. There was also the program of establishing a treaty relationship with the United States government, sort of ending every act or going back to eighteen seventy one when treaty making was formally abolished with Native nations. That sort of treaty commission, so to speak, would replace the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Native people would elect their own leaders. You know, today we have the Secretary of Interior who happens to be Native herself, Deb Holland.

So in nineteen seventy two, the American Indian Movement, as well as a coalition of various grassroots Native organizations, some of them even from Canada, like the Canadian Indian Brotherhood, participated in it. They drafted a twenty point policy framework called the Trail of Broken Treaties, and in it it sort of lays out point by point what was being advocated for. Number one priority was abolishing the Bureau of Indian Affairs. At that time period, the Bureau of Indian Affairs was largely responsible for plundering Native lands and implementing this termination system, assimilation, et cetera. We saw the outcome of like the twenty eleven you know, Cole Bell lawsuit that showed that the Bureau of Indian Affairs had been mismanaging. I think it was like over one hundred and seventy five billion dollars of what they could count on paper of Native assets. There was also the program of establishing a treaty relationship with the United States government, sort of ending every act or going back to eighteen seventy one when treaty making was formally abolished with Native nations. That sort of treaty commission, so to speak, would replace the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Native people would elect their own leaders. You know, today we have the Secretary of Interior who happens to be Native herself, Deb Holland.

But that's not somebody we elect, but nonetheless.

But that's not somebody we elect, but nonetheless.

Has still to this day, has arbitrary authority over the livelihoods and resources of Native people. We're in the same department as wildlife right still to this day, and those are sort of the broader sort of policy frameworks that they were pushing. But also at a grassroots level, they really wanted self determination and community control. So those are sort of like the broad brushstrokes of what they were trying to accomplish.

Has still to this day, has arbitrary authority over the livelihoods and resources of Native people. We're in the same department as wildlife right still to this day, and those are sort of the broader sort of policy frameworks that they were pushing. But also at a grassroots level, they really wanted self determination and community control. So those are sort of like the broad brushstrokes of what they were trying to accomplish.

So the American Indian Movement isn't actually mentioned by name in the co Intel profiles, But that's a little misleading because in reality, there was no shortage of interaction between the FBI and the American Indian Movement that reflected the tactics and ethos of co Intel Pro, especially right after Hoover's death. So tell us what was happening in the early nineteen seventies between the FBI and AIM.

So the American Indian Movement isn't actually mentioned by name in the co Intel profiles, But that's a little misleading because in reality, there was no shortage of interaction between the FBI and the American Indian Movement that reflected the tactics and ethos of co Intel Pro, especially right after Hoover's death. So tell us what was happening in the early nineteen seventies between the FBI and AIM.

You know, the break in at the FBI Field office and the revealing of these Cointel pro papers. It was a huge embarrassment to the FBI. They were exposed. Jadgar Hoover like dies shortly after these revelations come out, and the FBI says that it's formerly ending counterintelligence programs, and so they were under a lot of scrutiny by the time, the American Indian Movement began drawing a lot of public attention, negative attention from law enforcement but also lawmakers themselves, the Attorney Gerald Nixon's administration. So by nineteen seventy two, when the trailer Broken Treaties happens in late nineteen seventy two around the presidential elections, the co intel pro program had like, quote unquote formally ended, right, And so when you look at the FBI documents of surveillance of the American Indian Movement, they're even cautious. There's at one point there's the LA Field Office is like, hey, we can run the counterintelligence program. And I don't remember who was the Field director at the time, but writes back and says, hey, we don't do that anymore. But the tactics, you know, just because that program ended, maybe in the paper trail you couldn't say co Intel Pro anymore, it doesn't mean that the tactics or the actions formally ended. And so I think that's the bigger point here. It's like it just moved to a different category. So instead of being counterintelligence program to disrupt and to fame the American Indian Movement, the American Indian Movement became categorized within what is called em AIM, which is extremes some matters. It actually the nature of the FBI sort of changes culture.

You know, the break in at the FBI Field office and the revealing of these Cointel pro papers. It was a huge embarrassment to the FBI. They were exposed. Jadgar Hoover like dies shortly after these revelations come out, and the FBI says that it's formerly ending counterintelligence programs, and so they were under a lot of scrutiny by the time, the American Indian Movement began drawing a lot of public attention, negative attention from law enforcement but also lawmakers themselves, the Attorney Gerald Nixon's administration. So by nineteen seventy two, when the trailer Broken Treaties happens in late nineteen seventy two around the presidential elections, the co intel pro program had like, quote unquote formally ended, right, And so when you look at the FBI documents of surveillance of the American Indian Movement, they're even cautious. There's at one point there's the LA Field Office is like, hey, we can run the counterintelligence program. And I don't remember who was the Field director at the time, but writes back and says, hey, we don't do that anymore. But the tactics, you know, just because that program ended, maybe in the paper trail you couldn't say co Intel Pro anymore, it doesn't mean that the tactics or the actions formally ended. And so I think that's the bigger point here. It's like it just moved to a different category. So instead of being counterintelligence program to disrupt and to fame the American Indian Movement, the American Indian Movement became categorized within what is called em AIM, which is extremes some matters. It actually the nature of the FBI sort of changes culture.

Yeah, it's changed, Yeah, exactly, I.

Yeah, it's changed, Yeah, exactly, I.

Would love to dig into that more. In particular, it's very important to point out the FBI was the FBI, and there was still a sort of legacy of Jaegar Hoover's the culture that he had set up, and the church hearings wouldn't happen for another few years. Those hearings would significantly improve government oversight of agencies like the FBI, at least in that moment, but leading up to that, there was still a huge amount of friction between the Native American community and the FBI. Let's jump into the Wounded Knee occupation of nineteen seventy three. Can you walk us through that event?

Would love to dig into that more. In particular, it's very important to point out the FBI was the FBI, and there was still a sort of legacy of Jaegar Hoover's the culture that he had set up, and the church hearings wouldn't happen for another few years. Those hearings would significantly improve government oversight of agencies like the FBI, at least in that moment, but leading up to that, there was still a huge amount of friction between the Native American community and the FBI. Let's jump into the Wounded Knee occupation of nineteen seventy three. Can you walk us through that event?

Sure?

Sure?

So, after the trail of broken treaties, this really put the Americanadian movement on the map, so to speak, and got a lot of attention, both positive and negative. And the negative side, tribal leaders in places like Pine Ridge saw the American Indian Movement as a not only a threat, but outside sort of agitators that could come to the reservation and potentially overthrow the tribal government. The FBI had to function as a federal police force because reservations, specifically in South Dakota, fall under federal jurisdiction, So it's the jurisdiction of federal police like the FBI or the Bureau of Indian Affairs Police Agency or the US Marshall Service. And so by nineteen seventy two, the Tribal Council president of Pine Ridge, Dick Wilson, begins to sort of bad mouth aim and says you're banned from the reservation. There's already a chapter in pine Ridge at this time. So in February, things sort of escalate and there's the Customer Courthouse riot where the American Indian Movement leads a really racous sort of riot against this man, this white guy who stabbed Wesley bad Heart bull and barroom fight and he ended up dying, and they ended up burning down the Chamber of Commerce and having open fistfights, and you know, with billy clubs, et cetera, with the South Dakota State Patrol as well as other local law enforcement agencies. So there's this kind of brewing tension that's happening at that time. Also locally in Pine Ridge, people who were discontent with Dick Wilson, who was seen as sort of an authoritarian kind of like leader, begin to organize things called like the interdistrict councils. They have opposition through the tribal council. They have several elected leaders, but then a lot of grassroots.

So, after the trail of broken treaties, this really put the Americanadian movement on the map, so to speak, and got a lot of attention, both positive and negative. And the negative side, tribal leaders in places like Pine Ridge saw the American Indian Movement as a not only a threat, but outside sort of agitators that could come to the reservation and potentially overthrow the tribal government. The FBI had to function as a federal police force because reservations, specifically in South Dakota, fall under federal jurisdiction, So it's the jurisdiction of federal police like the FBI or the Bureau of Indian Affairs Police Agency or the US Marshall Service. And so by nineteen seventy two, the Tribal Council president of Pine Ridge, Dick Wilson, begins to sort of bad mouth aim and says you're banned from the reservation. There's already a chapter in pine Ridge at this time. So in February, things sort of escalate and there's the Customer Courthouse riot where the American Indian Movement leads a really racous sort of riot against this man, this white guy who stabbed Wesley bad Heart bull and barroom fight and he ended up dying, and they ended up burning down the Chamber of Commerce and having open fistfights, and you know, with billy clubs, et cetera, with the South Dakota State Patrol as well as other local law enforcement agencies. So there's this kind of brewing tension that's happening at that time. Also locally in Pine Ridge, people who were discontent with Dick Wilson, who was seen as sort of an authoritarian kind of like leader, begin to organize things called like the interdistrict councils. They have opposition through the tribal council. They have several elected leaders, but then a lot of grassroots.

People, mainly middle aged women like Ellen.

People, mainly middle aged women like Ellen.

Moves Camp, Gladys Bissonette and others, begin to form these public hearings where people come forward and issue grievances against the tribal council. In response to tribal council creates what the locals called a goon squad. That was initially an accusation and derogatory term, which the goon Squad later turned towards the Guardian said, oh, it's an acronym for guardians of the Oglala nation. But essentially they were like deputized so Orwellian. So they were like deputized vigilantes who would go around and.

Moves Camp, Gladys Bissonette and others, begin to form these public hearings where people come forward and issue grievances against the tribal council. In response to tribal council creates what the locals called a goon squad. That was initially an accusation and derogatory term, which the goon Squad later turned towards the Guardian said, oh, it's an acronym for guardians of the Oglala nation. But essentially they were like deputized so Orwellian. So they were like deputized vigilantes who would go around and.

Terrorize Dick Dick Wilson exactly.

Terrorize Dick Dick Wilson exactly.

And the FBI, you know, sensing this kind of brewing tension. There was a failed impeachment attempt of Dick Wilson in February, and they created the Oglalla Sioux Civil Rights Organization as a sort of opposition, which invited the American Indian Movement to Pine Ridge in late February of nineteen seventy three, and on February twenty seventh, they led the occupation of wound Nie. At that time, the FBI had already been on Pine Ridge.

And the FBI, you know, sensing this kind of brewing tension. There was a failed impeachment attempt of Dick Wilson in February, and they created the Oglalla Sioux Civil Rights Organization as a sort of opposition, which invited the American Indian Movement to Pine Ridge in late February of nineteen seventy three, and on February twenty seventh, they led the occupation of wound Nie. At that time, the FBI had already been on Pine Ridge.

They had been.

They had been.

Specifically tasked with jotting down the license plate numbers of off reservation supporters of the Oglalla Sioux Civil Rights Organization, anyone who's coming and going from out of state, et cetera. So Dick wilson title was what exactly the president of the tribe here was elected president.

Specifically tasked with jotting down the license plate numbers of off reservation supporters of the Oglalla Sioux Civil Rights Organization, anyone who's coming and going from out of state, et cetera. So Dick wilson title was what exactly the president of the tribe here was elected president.

Of the tribe. Okay, So there's a lot of discontent with Dick Wilson's leadership of the tribe. Aim is brought in to sort of assist in the resistance to Dick Wilson and how he's running the tribe. Is it fair to say that there was a sense that Dick Wilson was kind of in the incahoots with the federal government in ways that were undermining the Native American community there well.

Of the tribe. Okay, So there's a lot of discontent with Dick Wilson's leadership of the tribe. Aim is brought in to sort of assist in the resistance to Dick Wilson and how he's running the tribe. Is it fair to say that there was a sense that Dick Wilson was kind of in the incahoots with the federal government in ways that were undermining the Native American community there well.

On many reservations, the main employer tended to be the federal government, whether it was through federal grants, you worked for the tribe, you worked for the Bureau of Indian Affairs. And so if you're the president or you're on council on Typically that leads to sort of nepotism, right, so there's a cornering of resources, right, housing, things like that, access to employment that he was seen as sort of gifting out. He has been accused and found plausible that he stole a lot of money from the tribe, but also was making deals to sell off parts of tribal land for exploratory uranium mining that was happening in the northern part of the reservation. You have to remember that part of the reservation was actually confiscated by the federal government during World War Two to use as a bombing range. As the northern part of the reservation actually there were I think it was like around fifty or so families were forcefully relocated from that area, and the tribe was trying to get it back, and it was happening through grassroots sort of protests that people were trying to get this back, and there was allegations that Dick Wilson was making sweetheart deals with outside contractors, outside industry to sort of open that up for exploratory uranium mining.

On many reservations, the main employer tended to be the federal government, whether it was through federal grants, you worked for the tribe, you worked for the Bureau of Indian Affairs. And so if you're the president or you're on council on Typically that leads to sort of nepotism, right, so there's a cornering of resources, right, housing, things like that, access to employment that he was seen as sort of gifting out. He has been accused and found plausible that he stole a lot of money from the tribe, but also was making deals to sell off parts of tribal land for exploratory uranium mining that was happening in the northern part of the reservation. You have to remember that part of the reservation was actually confiscated by the federal government during World War Two to use as a bombing range. As the northern part of the reservation actually there were I think it was like around fifty or so families were forcefully relocated from that area, and the tribe was trying to get it back, and it was happening through grassroots sort of protests that people were trying to get this back, and there was allegations that Dick Wilson was making sweetheart deals with outside contractors, outside industry to sort of open that up for exploratory uranium mining.

Wow, we're just going to take this land just for bomb practice.

Wow, we're just going to take this land just for bomb practice.

That's yeah.

That's yeah.

Yeah, So sometimes it's like we have and that they see as resource rich.

Yeah, So sometimes it's like we have and that they see as resource rich.

Yeah right, there's other time let's get the oil exactly.

Yeah right, there's other time let's get the oil exactly.

Sometimes it's like it's it's valuable because it's wasteable, you know.

Sometimes it's like it's it's valuable because it's wasteable, you know.

Yeah, there you go. Okay. So there's an emerging tension among members of the tribe against Dick Wilson, the tribal leadership, who is seen as being in cahoots with federal government in some not good ways. What do they do?

Yeah, there you go. Okay. So there's an emerging tension among members of the tribe against Dick Wilson, the tribal leadership, who is seen as being in cahoots with federal government in some not good ways. What do they do?

So they take over.

So they take over.

The Woundannee massacre site, which listeners may have heard that name. But in eighteen ninety, just several days after Christmas, the Seventh Cavalry, just George Armstrong Custer's former regiment essentially massacred around three hundred Lakota people who were surrendering at this particular time under the leadership of Opunkleshka, or more commonly known as a Chief Bigfoot. From what I can tell from interviews I've conducted, I don't think they actually plan on staying there for very long, but it ended up turning into a seventy one day occupation. It's fascinating for a lot of reasons. One is that the.

The Woundannee massacre site, which listeners may have heard that name. But in eighteen ninety, just several days after Christmas, the Seventh Cavalry, just George Armstrong Custer's former regiment essentially massacred around three hundred Lakota people who were surrendering at this particular time under the leadership of Opunkleshka, or more commonly known as a Chief Bigfoot. From what I can tell from interviews I've conducted, I don't think they actually plan on staying there for very long, but it ended up turning into a seventy one day occupation. It's fascinating for a lot of reasons. One is that the.

Day that the occupation happened, a.

Day that the occupation happened, a.

General named Volney Warner, who's actually South Dakota native, gets a call from Nixon's administration. He said, there's a twentieth century Indian uprising. We need to deploy somebody from the Department of Defense. So he flies to Ellsworth Air Force Base, the base that was used to bomb just decades before bomb the reservation. Flies to Ellsworth Air Force Base and there he meets Joseph Trimbach, who is the Special Agent in charge of the FBI, and then he also meets top us Marshal Wayne Colburn. And in this initial meeting it was like three o'clock in the morning. On the next day, Joe Trimbach and the Special Agent in charge basically asks the colonel. He was a colonel later became promoted to a general, but he was a colonel at the time. He asked Colonel Warner, he said, can you send in the eighty second Airborne and just end the siege right now?

General named Volney Warner, who's actually South Dakota native, gets a call from Nixon's administration. He said, there's a twentieth century Indian uprising. We need to deploy somebody from the Department of Defense. So he flies to Ellsworth Air Force Base, the base that was used to bomb just decades before bomb the reservation. Flies to Ellsworth Air Force Base and there he meets Joseph Trimbach, who is the Special Agent in charge of the FBI, and then he also meets top us Marshal Wayne Colburn. And in this initial meeting it was like three o'clock in the morning. On the next day, Joe Trimbach and the Special Agent in charge basically asks the colonel. He was a colonel later became promoted to a general, but he was a colonel at the time. He asked Colonel Warner, he said, can you send in the eighty second Airborne and just end the siege right now?

How far into this to this occupation are we at this point?

How far into this to this occupation are we at this point?

Hours? Hours, like mere hours.

Hours? Hours, like mere hours.

This is like three point thirty in the morning the next day, so they occupied. They began the occupation at nighttime. So the FBI was put into this position and you can read this through Joe Trimbak's own words, in his own perspective, he was put into this position of turning the FBI into this kind of like paramilitary police force. Because you have to remember, like Hoover's guys, like when Fred Hampton was assassinated, it wasn't at the hands of FBI agents. The FBI didn't have shootouts with the Black Panthers. It was typically other law enforcement agencies that would have shootouts with these organizations. They were kind of like the behind the scenes guys who were always a step back. And in fact that even interviewed a former FBI agent named Colleen and I asked her straight up, I said, why would any FBI agent want this job? And she says, because it's easy. Imagine you're going after hardened criminals who are like, murder is their occupation, and then you get a sign to go tail a political activist. There's not much risk, you know, in doing that. At that time, the image of the FBI is that they're these kind of like suit and tie, kind of like slick, you know, investigators. They have these techniques, but they're investment. Yeah, they're investigative unit. They're not really armed like that we see today, you know, with the paramilitary sort of armed with assault rifles, you know, doing all these tactics. And so to put it bluntly, like Trimbak was pissed that he was putting his agents out on the line, and his agents were pissed.

This is like three point thirty in the morning the next day, so they occupied. They began the occupation at nighttime. So the FBI was put into this position and you can read this through Joe Trimbak's own words, in his own perspective, he was put into this position of turning the FBI into this kind of like paramilitary police force. Because you have to remember, like Hoover's guys, like when Fred Hampton was assassinated, it wasn't at the hands of FBI agents. The FBI didn't have shootouts with the Black Panthers. It was typically other law enforcement agencies that would have shootouts with these organizations. They were kind of like the behind the scenes guys who were always a step back. And in fact that even interviewed a former FBI agent named Colleen and I asked her straight up, I said, why would any FBI agent want this job? And she says, because it's easy. Imagine you're going after hardened criminals who are like, murder is their occupation, and then you get a sign to go tail a political activist. There's not much risk, you know, in doing that. At that time, the image of the FBI is that they're these kind of like suit and tie, kind of like slick, you know, investigators. They have these techniques, but they're investment. Yeah, they're investigative unit. They're not really armed like that we see today, you know, with the paramilitary sort of armed with assault rifles, you know, doing all these tactics. And so to put it bluntly, like Trimbak was pissed that he was putting his agents out on the line, and his agents were pissed.

So just to paint a visual picture here for our mind's eye, sure, what was the town of Wounded Knee like? Exactly what would it look like to drive by or drive through?

So just to paint a visual picture here for our mind's eye, sure, what was the town of Wounded Knee like? Exactly what would it look like to drive by or drive through?

Wounini at that time was a village and a trading post, like literally less than a dozen houses in the town of Wundani. There was a church, a very visible white church at the top of the hill where the mass grave where umpug Gleshka's people were buried and the massacred ghost dancers.

Wounini at that time was a village and a trading post, like literally less than a dozen houses in the town of Wundani. There was a church, a very visible white church at the top of the hill where the mass grave where umpug Gleshka's people were buried and the massacred ghost dancers.

I wonder if you could talk a little bit sort of philosophically about the idea of occupying land as a form of protest and or peaceful resistance.

I wonder if you could talk a little bit sort of philosophically about the idea of occupying land as a form of protest and or peaceful resistance.

So the FBI had this narrative that it was because of outside agitators like the American Indian Movement that the arm takeover of Wundani happened. It was like their idea, but as a lot of the locals said it would say no, that was actually our idea. And in fact, I told you about the bombing range initially back I think it was nineteen seventy, locals occupied what was known as Sheep Mountain, which is that bombing range. And later on when they couldn't get an audience because it's on the reservation, you have a protest on the reservation, like who's going to show up in the middle of nowhere, you know, So they decided and it was a group of grandmothers, people like Murio Wakazoo and Lizzy Fastours who decide, hey, like let's go to someplace more famous and like more iconics. So they decided that they were going to occupy Mount Rushmore in nineteen seventy to raise the issue of the taken you know, bombing range lands at Sheep Mountains. So they took over Mount Rushmore and it was you know, several occupations and a multi yeared kind of process. But this was also part and parcel to other federal property takeovers like at Alcatraz Island in nineteen seventy or nineteen sixty nine to nineteen seventy one. Alcatraz was a prison island that was abandoned by the federal government. It was also a place where, you know, hope people were sent because they refused to send their children to boarding schools in the late nineteenth century. So it kind of has this notorious history. We see you know that movie that Nicholas came movie The Rock or was it Nicholas Cage, Yeah, and Sean Connery yeah, and Shuck Conry.

So the FBI had this narrative that it was because of outside agitators like the American Indian Movement that the arm takeover of Wundani happened. It was like their idea, but as a lot of the locals said it would say no, that was actually our idea. And in fact, I told you about the bombing range initially back I think it was nineteen seventy, locals occupied what was known as Sheep Mountain, which is that bombing range. And later on when they couldn't get an audience because it's on the reservation, you have a protest on the reservation, like who's going to show up in the middle of nowhere, you know, So they decided and it was a group of grandmothers, people like Murio Wakazoo and Lizzy Fastours who decide, hey, like let's go to someplace more famous and like more iconics. So they decided that they were going to occupy Mount Rushmore in nineteen seventy to raise the issue of the taken you know, bombing range lands at Sheep Mountains. So they took over Mount Rushmore and it was you know, several occupations and a multi yeared kind of process. But this was also part and parcel to other federal property takeovers like at Alcatraz Island in nineteen seventy or nineteen sixty nine to nineteen seventy one. Alcatraz was a prison island that was abandoned by the federal government. It was also a place where, you know, hope people were sent because they refused to send their children to boarding schools in the late nineteenth century. So it kind of has this notorious history. We see you know that movie that Nicholas came movie The Rock or was it Nicholas Cage, Yeah, and Sean Connery yeah, and Shuck Conry.

Yeah. People might know it as like Rock the Rock.

Yeah. People might know it as like Rock the Rock.

Yes, Nicholas Cage is like, you think that guy's career might be like on the tail end, but it keeps like he keeps coming out with bangers man.

Yes, Nicholas Cage is like, you think that guy's career might be like on the tail end, but it keeps like he keeps coming out with bangers man.

Yeah, No, he is crushing it and never stops crushing it. So tell us what unfolded at the Wounded Knee occupation and what role the FBI played.

Yeah, No, he is crushing it and never stops crushing it. So tell us what unfolded at the Wounded Knee occupation and what role the FBI played.

And maybe instead of giving like a play by play, because it's seventy one days and there's different ebbs and flows. But when we look at history, we tend to think of things with oh, it led to this, and I think a lot of people didn't know it was going to lead to.

And maybe instead of giving like a play by play, because it's seventy one days and there's different ebbs and flows. But when we look at history, we tend to think of things with oh, it led to this, and I think a lot of people didn't know it was going to lead to.

This, you know.

This, you know.

So over the course of seventy one days, the FBI pumped in about half a million rounds into this tiny hamlet. And it's point important to like remember that the people on the inside, they were portrayed by the FBI as these armed militants, and many of them were like comp veterans. I've interviewed several people who were Vietnam veterans, so they did have like combat experience, but everyone said they didn't have ammunition. They most of their rifles were rusted out like twenty two's. They didn't have a machine gun. There was an AK forty seven, but that was smuggled from the jungles of Vietnam by somebody, but nobody had an ammunition for it. But it made a good sort of image for the FBI to say, hey, look this communists inspired Chinese inspired like uprising. They have an AK forty seven, which that became the symbol for armed revolutions throughout the world at that particular time. But on the inside, Wundanie, you know, they declared the independent Oglala nation. They made people citizens of this new nation, even non native people. They proposed a succession plan to what would happen once the tribal government relinquished its power was formally abolished, that they would return to the eighteen sixty eight Fort Laramie Treaty and the sort of governing principles of like traditional Lakota culture, and a lot of these AIM members had never really encountered indigenous spiritual life, and so there's also this kind of renewal that was happening on the inside. And wow, So it was a really you know, you ask people, it's like, yeah, there was this immense danger.

So over the course of seventy one days, the FBI pumped in about half a million rounds into this tiny hamlet. And it's point important to like remember that the people on the inside, they were portrayed by the FBI as these armed militants, and many of them were like comp veterans. I've interviewed several people who were Vietnam veterans, so they did have like combat experience, but everyone said they didn't have ammunition. They most of their rifles were rusted out like twenty two's. They didn't have a machine gun. There was an AK forty seven, but that was smuggled from the jungles of Vietnam by somebody, but nobody had an ammunition for it. But it made a good sort of image for the FBI to say, hey, look this communists inspired Chinese inspired like uprising. They have an AK forty seven, which that became the symbol for armed revolutions throughout the world at that particular time. But on the inside, Wundanie, you know, they declared the independent Oglala nation. They made people citizens of this new nation, even non native people. They proposed a succession plan to what would happen once the tribal government relinquished its power was formally abolished, that they would return to the eighteen sixty eight Fort Laramie Treaty and the sort of governing principles of like traditional Lakota culture, and a lot of these AIM members had never really encountered indigenous spiritual life, and so there's also this kind of renewal that was happening on the inside. And wow, So it was a really you know, you ask people, it's like, yeah, there was this immense danger.

You know.

You know.

I interviewed a Madonna Thunderhowk and she said, yeah, it was the freest time of my life, even though we're completely surrounded. There wasn't a lot of food, it was cold, we didn't have electricity, all of those things. And she brought in her ten year old son with her. So she has said this to me on multiple occasions that the American Indian Movement, if anything, was a movement of families. It wasn't this militant, like violence prone organization led by men, right, It was actually families were the heartbeat of the movement itself. And if you read the FBI files, if you read the media reports, it gives us a complete different point of view because they only saw men as the leaders. On the federal police side, a Colonel Warner, he was in charge of essentially bringing in military equipment to arm the US Marshals, the Bureau of Indian Affairs, police officers, the FBI, and later was revealed the Goon Squad themselves were getting these military grade assault rifles.

I interviewed a Madonna Thunderhowk and she said, yeah, it was the freest time of my life, even though we're completely surrounded. There wasn't a lot of food, it was cold, we didn't have electricity, all of those things. And she brought in her ten year old son with her. So she has said this to me on multiple occasions that the American Indian Movement, if anything, was a movement of families. It wasn't this militant, like violence prone organization led by men, right, It was actually families were the heartbeat of the movement itself. And if you read the FBI files, if you read the media reports, it gives us a complete different point of view because they only saw men as the leaders. On the federal police side, a Colonel Warner, he was in charge of essentially bringing in military equipment to arm the US Marshals, the Bureau of Indian Affairs, police officers, the FBI, and later was revealed the Goon Squad themselves were getting these military grade assault rifles.

Right.

Right.

Wow.

Wow.

So the FBI was taking on, according to its own words and report, a paramilitary function, something that it had not done before in the field. It was teaching agents to use shoulder mounted assault rifles, to use grenade launchers, to launch tear gas canisters, to train in tactics.

So the FBI was taking on, according to its own words and report, a paramilitary function, something that it had not done before in the field. It was teaching agents to use shoulder mounted assault rifles, to use grenade launchers, to launch tear gas canisters, to train in tactics.

Right.

Right.

So, the difference between the US Marshals and the FBI at that time was the US Marshals tended to come from, you know, non college educated, working class people, so they had so many of their officers or marshals were Vietnam veterans, so they had combat experience. They knew how to use these weapons of war. Whereas the FBI they were like highly educated urbanites who are not used to being in the field in this way, and so it was for them a lot of them was a traumatic experience. And if you read some of the US Marshall reports, they're like, we have to control these FBI guys. They keep freaking out at the line, they're being overly hostile to the Native families who's who live in this area, right, They're they're being violent there. So it created this this kind of cauldron of violence, so to speak, that was concentrated in this area. One US Marshall was shot in paralyzed from from the waist down, and two occupiers, a man named Frank Clearwater who was not Native, was shot and killed while he was sleeping in one of the bunker or not in one of the bunkers in one of the buildings. And then a Vietnam veteran and a local from pine Rie named Buddy Lamont was shot in the heart by a sniper's bullet after they had declared a ceasefire. And this was towards the end. I think it was in late April, towards the end of the occupation. And it was Buddy Lamont's death that really ended it for people on the inside because they were like, we don't want any more people to die or to get hurt, right.

So, the difference between the US Marshals and the FBI at that time was the US Marshals tended to come from, you know, non college educated, working class people, so they had so many of their officers or marshals were Vietnam veterans, so they had combat experience. They knew how to use these weapons of war. Whereas the FBI they were like highly educated urbanites who are not used to being in the field in this way, and so it was for them a lot of them was a traumatic experience. And if you read some of the US Marshall reports, they're like, we have to control these FBI guys. They keep freaking out at the line, they're being overly hostile to the Native families who's who live in this area, right, They're they're being violent there. So it created this this kind of cauldron of violence, so to speak, that was concentrated in this area. One US Marshall was shot in paralyzed from from the waist down, and two occupiers, a man named Frank Clearwater who was not Native, was shot and killed while he was sleeping in one of the bunker or not in one of the bunkers in one of the buildings. And then a Vietnam veteran and a local from pine Rie named Buddy Lamont was shot in the heart by a sniper's bullet after they had declared a ceasefire. And this was towards the end. I think it was in late April, towards the end of the occupation. And it was Buddy Lamont's death that really ended it for people on the inside because they were like, we don't want any more people to die or to get hurt, right.

Yeah, sorry, But what was precipitating these outbursts, these firefights. Were they just periodically shooting into wounded knee. I don't remember how many rounds of ammunition, you said at first half or something. Yeah, that's a lot of gunfire over a long period of time.

Yeah, sorry, But what was precipitating these outbursts, these firefights. Were they just periodically shooting into wounded knee. I don't remember how many rounds of ammunition, you said at first half or something. Yeah, that's a lot of gunfire over a long period of time.

Yeah, And according to the documents, most of the firefights, as they were called, happened at nighttime, and it could be depending on which side you read or which stories you read. You know, the FBI the US Marshals would blame somebody for taking a potshot, and then it would erupt into a firefight, and people would say, like the night would literally be illuminated with flares to kind of spot the occupiers on the inside. They were using tracer rounds, and there were also the goons themselves put up their own roadblock at the behest of Dick Wilson, and they kind of instigated some firefights, almost getting into crossfire with the FBI and the US Marshals who didn't like their presence because they were very sort of aggressive.

Yeah, And according to the documents, most of the firefights, as they were called, happened at nighttime, and it could be depending on which side you read or which stories you read. You know, the FBI the US Marshals would blame somebody for taking a potshot, and then it would erupt into a firefight, and people would say, like the night would literally be illuminated with flares to kind of spot the occupiers on the inside. They were using tracer rounds, and there were also the goons themselves put up their own roadblock at the behest of Dick Wilson, and they kind of instigated some firefights, almost getting into crossfire with the FBI and the US Marshals who didn't like their presence because they were very sort of aggressive.

Now, I want to shift gears into more recent events. Listeners will likely be somewhat familiar with Standing Rock and the Dakota Access pipeline protests that went on in twenty sixteen and twenty seventeen. It seems like that was a contemporary example of everything we've been talking about regarding FBI surveillance and infiltration, and it represents some of the ways that the Bureau has and has not evolved in its interface with the Native American community.

Now, I want to shift gears into more recent events. Listeners will likely be somewhat familiar with Standing Rock and the Dakota Access pipeline protests that went on in twenty sixteen and twenty seventeen. It seems like that was a contemporary example of everything we've been talking about regarding FBI surveillance and infiltration, and it represents some of the ways that the Bureau has and has not evolved in its interface with the Native American community.

So twenty sixteen was a very similar year to twenty twenty four. You know, as a presidential election, you have an outgoing Democrat Trump A Trump is running Trump is running again, and so you know twenty sixteen. What preceded that was the successful defeat of the Keiston Excel pipeline under the Obama administration. This happened through Indigenous led protests, so there was a lot of there was a high point at that particular moment. Of course, Trump later reversed Obama's decision and you know, reinstated the Keystone Exel pipeline, only to have it reversed again by the Biden administration. But it was there was a high point, and there was these there's organizing, There was grassroots organizing happening at that time. And to be honest, the quota access pipeline wasn't really on the radar of a lot of people. They had just defeated this major tarzans pipeline that would be pumping tartans from Alberta Canada down to Oklahoma across our Tree territory in western South Dakota, so there wasn't the kind of attention to the decod access pipeline. But nonetheless, the Standing Tribe, not just grassroots organizers, but the tribe itself had been steadfastly opposed to it from the very beginning, especially when it was re routed from upriver from North Dakota to downriver to North Dakota so that it would impact the tribe more than it would impact the predominantly white community that was north of it. This was a decision made by the Army Corps of Engineers. So in April of twenty sixteen, after a sort of contentious meeting with the Army Corps of Engineers, a group of Standing Rock activists got together and created the first camp that later evolved into multiple camps, the Ochetti, Shakoi Camp, Sacred Stone Camp, et cetera.

So twenty sixteen was a very similar year to twenty twenty four. You know, as a presidential election, you have an outgoing Democrat Trump A Trump is running Trump is running again, and so you know twenty sixteen. What preceded that was the successful defeat of the Keiston Excel pipeline under the Obama administration. This happened through Indigenous led protests, so there was a lot of there was a high point at that particular moment. Of course, Trump later reversed Obama's decision and you know, reinstated the Keystone Exel pipeline, only to have it reversed again by the Biden administration. But it was there was a high point, and there was these there's organizing, There was grassroots organizing happening at that time. And to be honest, the quota access pipeline wasn't really on the radar of a lot of people. They had just defeated this major tarzans pipeline that would be pumping tartans from Alberta Canada down to Oklahoma across our Tree territory in western South Dakota, so there wasn't the kind of attention to the decod access pipeline. But nonetheless, the Standing Tribe, not just grassroots organizers, but the tribe itself had been steadfastly opposed to it from the very beginning, especially when it was re routed from upriver from North Dakota to downriver to North Dakota so that it would impact the tribe more than it would impact the predominantly white community that was north of it. This was a decision made by the Army Corps of Engineers. So in April of twenty sixteen, after a sort of contentious meeting with the Army Corps of Engineers, a group of Standing Rock activists got together and created the first camp that later evolved into multiple camps, the Ochetti, Shakoi Camp, Sacred Stone Camp, et cetera.

To be clear that this pipeline presents a massive danger to our water system in the event of it possibly failing or leaking, or any kind of natural disaster, which we've seen from the oil and gas industry rampantly throughout its existence. So any possible failure of this pipeline would have devastating consequences to the ecosystem there on tribal land.

To be clear that this pipeline presents a massive danger to our water system in the event of it possibly failing or leaking, or any kind of natural disaster, which we've seen from the oil and gas industry rampantly throughout its existence. So any possible failure of this pipeline would have devastating consequences to the ecosystem there on tribal land.

Yeah, Minnie Chouche, which is what we call the Missouri River is the main drinking source for like millions of people in the watershed. Even downriver it flows into the Mississippi, which goes into the Gulf of Mexico. So it wasn't just a native issue. It was like everyone's issue. And even for Berthold Indian reservation, the Mandan, Hidatsa and Rikara tribes, who has a very lucrative oil and gas industry whose oil would be going through that pipeline, said this is.

Yeah, Minnie Chouche, which is what we call the Missouri River is the main drinking source for like millions of people in the watershed. Even downriver it flows into the Mississippi, which goes into the Gulf of Mexico. So it wasn't just a native issue. It was like everyone's issue. And even for Berthold Indian reservation, the Mandan, Hidatsa and Rikara tribes, who has a very lucrative oil and gas industry whose oil would be going through that pipeline, said this is.

A bad idea.

A bad idea.

Even the people were profiting from it, like, this is a bad idea, we oppose this. The fundamental issue is tribal sovereignty right.

Even the people were profiting from it, like, this is a bad idea, we oppose this. The fundamental issue is tribal sovereignty right.

Right, And it's not just about hey, this pipeline would be so annoying to have in our backyard. It's like, oh no, this is an existential threat also. And then on top of it is the fundamental underlying issue that you just mentioned, tribal sovereignty.

Right, And it's not just about hey, this pipeline would be so annoying to have in our backyard. It's like, oh no, this is an existential threat also. And then on top of it is the fundamental underlying issue that you just mentioned, tribal sovereignty.

It's like if France decided they're going to build a pipeline in Germany, the Germans would probably be mad about that.

It's like if France decided they're going to build a pipeline in Germany, the Germans would probably be mad about that.

Okay, how many people are now protesting this construction.

Okay, how many people are now protesting this construction.

I think that the height of the encampment itself or the encampments is one of the top ten largest cities in North Dakota, if it could be counted as a city, So it's quite massive, you know. And yeah, the Aboma administration didn't I wouldn't say like stopped it, but they definitely put up some obstacles in trying to revisit the environmental impact review process through the Army Corps of Engineers. Of course, you know, Trump was just like, now we're going to take any sort of protections off this and just fast track it through. So it was a measure to block it, but I think it was kind of also understood that it could be reverse and so that's I think that's important to point out, because you know, it's still flowing to this day, and I haven't heard anything from the Biden administration about the status of it, even though the tribe has won some strategic lawsuits that basically says it's flowing illegally, but the energy transfer partners is willing to pay the fine for it to continue to flow illegally, So you have an organization, a private security company called Tiger Swan Right that is operating hand in glove with the Martin County Sheriff's Department. You have a federal Emergency Management legislation called eMac, which allows states to solicit the support of other jurisdictions, local county sheriff's departments. I think there's like ninety two different law enforcement jurisdictions that were sent to Standing Rock to help police the protests.

I think that the height of the encampment itself or the encampments is one of the top ten largest cities in North Dakota, if it could be counted as a city, So it's quite massive, you know. And yeah, the Aboma administration didn't I wouldn't say like stopped it, but they definitely put up some obstacles in trying to revisit the environmental impact review process through the Army Corps of Engineers. Of course, you know, Trump was just like, now we're going to take any sort of protections off this and just fast track it through. So it was a measure to block it, but I think it was kind of also understood that it could be reverse and so that's I think that's important to point out, because you know, it's still flowing to this day, and I haven't heard anything from the Biden administration about the status of it, even though the tribe has won some strategic lawsuits that basically says it's flowing illegally, but the energy transfer partners is willing to pay the fine for it to continue to flow illegally, So you have an organization, a private security company called Tiger Swan Right that is operating hand in glove with the Martin County Sheriff's Department. You have a federal Emergency Management legislation called eMac, which allows states to solicit the support of other jurisdictions, local county sheriff's departments. I think there's like ninety two different law enforcement jurisdictions that were sent to Standing Rock to help police the protests.

And that was widely kind.

And that was widely kind.

Of covered in the media at that time about the private security and whatnot, But what wasn't covered so much was the role of the FBI.

Of covered in the media at that time about the private security and whatnot, But what wasn't covered so much was the role of the FBI.

So walk us through the FBI's connection to this Standing Rock protests. And then, even though it's like fifty years later, do you see any particular echoes of j Edgar Hoover's FBI and co intel pro Yeah.

So walk us through the FBI's connection to this Standing Rock protests. And then, even though it's like fifty years later, do you see any particular echoes of j Edgar Hoover's FBI and co intel pro Yeah.

So, reporting by Ellen Brown through Grist revealed that the FBI, at any given point in time during the height of the protests was operating anywhere between one to ten informants, and in fact, in one of the depositions, one of the FBI agents, Jacob O'Connell, this FBI agen was called to the stand It was the first time that it was actually revealed in a public record that there were FBI informants, and he even admitted that one of these informants had been arrested. It wasn't just you know, people observing on the outside there. I would say, probably people who are deeply embedded within the movement itself, probably Native people.

So, reporting by Ellen Brown through Grist revealed that the FBI, at any given point in time during the height of the protests was operating anywhere between one to ten informants, and in fact, in one of the depositions, one of the FBI agents, Jacob O'Connell, this FBI agen was called to the stand It was the first time that it was actually revealed in a public record that there were FBI informants, and he even admitted that one of these informants had been arrested. It wasn't just you know, people observing on the outside there. I would say, probably people who are deeply embedded within the movement itself, probably Native people.

I don't know.

I don't know.

We can only guess by what limited information. If you even look at this deposition, O'Connell is more concerned about the sources of income that are going into a standing Rock protest. He's like, but yeah, we're just gathering intelligence. But it raises the question about in a criminal investigation, you're finding evidence to charge somebody out with an actual crime. But this is not an actual crime to just get money from people, Right, there were go fundmes that were set up, So you're not investigating a crime, So what are you doing? In some ways, it's creating a chilling effect to say, now your personal privacy. If you decide to go to a protest and you do a GoFundMe, or you get a gas card or something like that, or you do a fundraising event, you might be targeted with FBI surveillance for exercising a First Amendment right. They're looking at resources, they're tracking people. I don't know how many times they stole Vernon Belcourt's briefcase, but it appears multiple times, and they stole at least three briefcases of this man. You know, he was a leader of the American Indian Movement. But they were gathering intelligence. That was their justifications. They're gathering intelligence because they never brought charges against him after stealing his briefcase, because he wasn't engaged in a criminal act. And I think we have to ask ourselves what are those lines, because it's very unclear to people. I think it's having even ben subpoena in myself, and like the questions that I was asked by the attorneys from the North Dakota side about whether I had witnessed illegal activities, and I said, yes, of course I've witnessed illegal activities.

We can only guess by what limited information. If you even look at this deposition, O'Connell is more concerned about the sources of income that are going into a standing Rock protest. He's like, but yeah, we're just gathering intelligence. But it raises the question about in a criminal investigation, you're finding evidence to charge somebody out with an actual crime. But this is not an actual crime to just get money from people, Right, there were go fundmes that were set up, So you're not investigating a crime, So what are you doing? In some ways, it's creating a chilling effect to say, now your personal privacy. If you decide to go to a protest and you do a GoFundMe, or you get a gas card or something like that, or you do a fundraising event, you might be targeted with FBI surveillance for exercising a First Amendment right. They're looking at resources, they're tracking people. I don't know how many times they stole Vernon Belcourt's briefcase, but it appears multiple times, and they stole at least three briefcases of this man. You know, he was a leader of the American Indian Movement. But they were gathering intelligence. That was their justifications. They're gathering intelligence because they never brought charges against him after stealing his briefcase, because he wasn't engaged in a criminal act. And I think we have to ask ourselves what are those lines, because it's very unclear to people. I think it's having even ben subpoena in myself, and like the questions that I was asked by the attorneys from the North Dakota side about whether I had witnessed illegal activities, and I said, yes, of course I've witnessed illegal activities.

That's why I was there.

That's why I was there.

You guys were viting leading Article six of the Constitutions that says that treaties are the supreme law of the land. Like we shouldn't have been there in the first vest we're trying to legal activity.

You guys were viting leading Article six of the Constitutions that says that treaties are the supreme law of the land. Like we shouldn't have been there in the first vest we're trying to legal activity.

We were all standing there looking at it.

We were all standing there looking at it.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

The wait is I get wait, but what about you guys like you didn't you see you guys do some illegal stuff.

The wait is I get wait, but what about you guys like you didn't you see you guys do some illegal stuff.

Yeah, So that's striking.

Yeah, So that's striking.

It's striking how similar that is to so much of what Hoover's FBI was up to. Have we learned anything? Are we any better off?

It's striking how similar that is to so much of what Hoover's FBI was up to. Have we learned anything? Are we any better off?

I think you have to go back to what the people who were targeted by these investigations were actually asking. So you mentioned the Church Commission. You know, the Church Commission skipped over the FBI surveillance, the CIA surveillance of the American India Movement because they were supposed to have a hearing just by chance happened after the shootout in nineteen seventy five. You know, the Attorney General decided that just wasn't a good idea because it might compromise that investigation of the killing of two FBI agents. And so, following this reign of terror, Oglala people had been calling for a congressional investigation of the role of the FBI and its participation in this time period and what it did, what it knew. There's also the botched investigation of the murdered American Indian Movement activist Anime alquash. That could be a whole nother podcast episode, but it's been revealed through FBI documents that the FBI knew within almost a week of her assassination, who did it, when it happened, and where it happened. She was murdered in December of nineteen seventy five, but didn't formally identify her body until March of nineteen seventy six of the following year, and then never charged anybody out for it until thirty years later. That's a pretty poor track record if you think about it. If you knew at the time, who did it, when it happened, why weren't they prosecuted. You know, there's so many questions that need answering, and I'm not the person to answer those questions. That you know, the ball is in the FBI's court. I would say the ball should be in Congress' court to provide actual oversight of this institution.