Welcome to the Health Podcast. A panel discussion on behaviours, innovation and trends in health and self-care. My name is Christopher on the author of the book called Healthy and a global keynote speaker on the future of health and self-care. Every month I discuss with a panel of experts the positive changes that are shaping our health and happiness. And this month we have two panelists we have from our American in Paris, at least a medical expert in digital health. Aditi Joshi.

Welcome to the Health Podcast. A panel discussion on behaviours, innovation and trends in health and self-care. My name is Christopher on the author of the book called Healthy and a global keynote speaker on the future of health and self-care. Every month I discuss with a panel of experts the positive changes that are shaping our health and happiness. And this month we have two panelists we have from our American in Paris, at least a medical expert in digital health. Aditi Joshi.

Hi, everyone.

Hi, everyone.

We also have from Belgium human experience experts more Zaina Lucas. This means that we are missing our beloved two other panelists, our digital health Connector from Barcelona, Ali Ngozi, and from London, our customer experience and research expert Cooper Suter. This means that in this case, we always invite a special guest to our panel, but some last minute cancellation, and it's just the three of us. So we're going to have either a short show or our panelists will have the opportunity to talk even more. Anyway, together we will amplify the health system that we see in articles, new business ventures, or simply even in the world around us. Now, if you're new to the show, you might wonder what health system is all about. Well, health tourism is the aspiration that we all have to be healthy and happy. And as a result of this, every company or organization is now more than ever focused on making their customers healthier and happier. And before I go to one of the panelists, Eileen sent me one of the healthy systems that she wanted me to put on the show. It was about a human performance company called Woohp. It's a bracelet that you can wear. And it now has introduced a new stress monitor feature in partnership with the very famous American neuroscientists, Andrew Huberman. You may know him from his amazing podcast. And so what it does, it will track daily stress levels in real time by monitoring continuous heart rate variability and resting heart rates at same time. It will also provide breathwork protocols for some stress relieving, of course. Thank you for that, Eileen. She also sent another one actually, because last time we talked about Google and everything that they did and health. And so one of the things that she sent me is that DeepMind is joining Google's brain team. Basically, there are two separate teams within the Google big holding. But right now they'll be working together because they're doing primarily the same thing. Good thing about is, is that they'll have more focus probably and just say what they can actually do and what they've done in the past. Alphafold is the one that we used that we talked about in previous podcast or previous shows because they have predicted the 3D models of protein structures, but they also just recently developed or identified a new liver cancer treatment just a couple of weeks ago, some some health systems sent in by Eileen while she is not here. Who is here is a of course. And what health issues did you see in the past month?

We also have from Belgium human experience experts more Zaina Lucas. This means that we are missing our beloved two other panelists, our digital health Connector from Barcelona, Ali Ngozi, and from London, our customer experience and research expert Cooper Suter. This means that in this case, we always invite a special guest to our panel, but some last minute cancellation, and it's just the three of us. So we're going to have either a short show or our panelists will have the opportunity to talk even more. Anyway, together we will amplify the health system that we see in articles, new business ventures, or simply even in the world around us. Now, if you're new to the show, you might wonder what health system is all about. Well, health tourism is the aspiration that we all have to be healthy and happy. And as a result of this, every company or organization is now more than ever focused on making their customers healthier and happier. And before I go to one of the panelists, Eileen sent me one of the healthy systems that she wanted me to put on the show. It was about a human performance company called Woohp. It's a bracelet that you can wear. And it now has introduced a new stress monitor feature in partnership with the very famous American neuroscientists, Andrew Huberman. You may know him from his amazing podcast. And so what it does, it will track daily stress levels in real time by monitoring continuous heart rate variability and resting heart rates at same time. It will also provide breathwork protocols for some stress relieving, of course. Thank you for that, Eileen. She also sent another one actually, because last time we talked about Google and everything that they did and health. And so one of the things that she sent me is that DeepMind is joining Google's brain team. Basically, there are two separate teams within the Google big holding. But right now they'll be working together because they're doing primarily the same thing. Good thing about is, is that they'll have more focus probably and just say what they can actually do and what they've done in the past. Alphafold is the one that we used that we talked about in previous podcast or previous shows because they have predicted the 3D models of protein structures, but they also just recently developed or identified a new liver cancer treatment just a couple of weeks ago, some some health systems sent in by Eileen while she is not here. Who is here is a of course. And what health issues did you see in the past month?

Well, the first one I was going to talk about is on therapy apps for couples. Obviously, I work in telemedicine and I should have known about this, but I found it really interesting that I hadn't considered that people are not using it for couples counseling and to improve their relationships. So I looked online and there's actually quite a few, as many of you know, that divorce rates are very high. And so this is one way to improve people, maybe using the service, feeling less stigma about it. You could do it by yourself, you can do with your partner. And so I found it really great use case in a way that maybe people hadn't used before, hadn't thought of doing.

Well, the first one I was going to talk about is on therapy apps for couples. Obviously, I work in telemedicine and I should have known about this, but I found it really interesting that I hadn't considered that people are not using it for couples counseling and to improve their relationships. So I looked online and there's actually quite a few, as many of you know, that divorce rates are very high. And so this is one way to improve people, maybe using the service, feeling less stigma about it. You could do it by yourself, you can do with your partner. And so I found it really great use case in a way that maybe people hadn't used before, hadn't thought of doing.

Yeah, I love it. And you can do so much from distance. I know you're a specialist in telehealth. Did you see the that actually Ukrainian refugees are also working on their PTSD from a distance. They're now working through their trauma and a certain metaverse. Actually, it's a metaverse version of Kiev and it's where they talk to therapists and have some peer support. Apparently, actually in a virtual version of the city of Kiev. It's developed by an international team of psychologists. And, you know, while they talk to therapists, they can as an avatar, of course, because, I mean, in Metaverse, you're walking around, let's say as an avatar, they are treating themselves against their PTSD more. What health system did you bring this month?

Yeah, I love it. And you can do so much from distance. I know you're a specialist in telehealth. Did you see the that actually Ukrainian refugees are also working on their PTSD from a distance. They're now working through their trauma and a certain metaverse. Actually, it's a metaverse version of Kiev and it's where they talk to therapists and have some peer support. Apparently, actually in a virtual version of the city of Kiev. It's developed by an international team of psychologists. And, you know, while they talk to therapists, they can as an avatar, of course, because, I mean, in Metaverse, you're walking around, let's say as an avatar, they are treating themselves against their PTSD more. What health system did you bring this month?

Well, it's an enthusiasm that makes me made me smile because I'm a lazy person by definition. Right. So I was thinking about, you know, everyone knows you have to take 10,000 steps a day to kind of lower your cardiovascular and all cause mortality risk. So it's true that has been proved that if you take a thousand steps or more a day, that it's way better for your overall health. But I was wondering, you know, what is the cutoff point? When to which point can I do less and still have a benefit? And it seems that some researchers have dived into that. And it seems that in an adjusted analysis, individual who took 8000 steps 1 or 2 days a week had a 14.9 lower, all cause mortality risk than those who never reached 8080 steps. But those who did it every day had a 16.5 reduced mortality risk. So it was higher if you do it every day, but not spectacularly higher. So basically, I'm just giving hope to those who say, you know, sometimes it's it's paralyzing to say, do I have to take 10,000 steps a day? And if you say take 1 or 2, I think that seems more feasible from a behavioral point of view. And you will probably get, you know, started easier. So that's kind of the author am I have now you have to be careful with that conclusion. Right. So these weekend warriors who say I'm sedentary the entire week and then I'll just do everything in the weekend. But I think it's a hopeful message and I think the results should be interpreted with caution of light in a caution in light of potential unmeasured confounding factors and bias. But I think it's hopeful. And I think those who feel that doing it every day consistently might draw some hope from the fact that 1 or 2 days a week might be enough to have 80 or 90% of the benefit.

Well, it's an enthusiasm that makes me made me smile because I'm a lazy person by definition. Right. So I was thinking about, you know, everyone knows you have to take 10,000 steps a day to kind of lower your cardiovascular and all cause mortality risk. So it's true that has been proved that if you take a thousand steps or more a day, that it's way better for your overall health. But I was wondering, you know, what is the cutoff point? When to which point can I do less and still have a benefit? And it seems that some researchers have dived into that. And it seems that in an adjusted analysis, individual who took 8000 steps 1 or 2 days a week had a 14.9 lower, all cause mortality risk than those who never reached 8080 steps. But those who did it every day had a 16.5 reduced mortality risk. So it was higher if you do it every day, but not spectacularly higher. So basically, I'm just giving hope to those who say, you know, sometimes it's it's paralyzing to say, do I have to take 10,000 steps a day? And if you say take 1 or 2, I think that seems more feasible from a behavioral point of view. And you will probably get, you know, started easier. So that's kind of the author am I have now you have to be careful with that conclusion. Right. So these weekend warriors who say I'm sedentary the entire week and then I'll just do everything in the weekend. But I think it's a hopeful message and I think the results should be interpreted with caution of light in a caution in light of potential unmeasured confounding factors and bias. But I think it's hopeful. And I think those who feel that doing it every day consistently might draw some hope from the fact that 1 or 2 days a week might be enough to have 80 or 90% of the benefit.

Thanks for that. And you know, you know what? I think if you if you talk to personal coaches, what they say is every step you do more is already one step more. And it's good for your health. Of course, at the same time I saw I think it was also last week passing by, um, I think some recommendation by the Who saying that you need to do even more than 30 minutes exercises per day. You need to do some weight and you need to work on some strength. And so there's a lot going on in different directions I guess, right?

Thanks for that. And you know, you know what? I think if you if you talk to personal coaches, what they say is every step you do more is already one step more. And it's good for your health. Of course, at the same time I saw I think it was also last week passing by, um, I think some recommendation by the Who saying that you need to do even more than 30 minutes exercises per day. You need to do some weight and you need to work on some strength. And so there's a lot going on in different directions I guess, right?

So yeah, yeah, yeah. It is true that high intensity is really beneficial, right? So a lot of people rely too, too much on long term cardio, right? While Huberman also talked about it. So every day you should wake up, look at the light and do something as if someone was kind of chasing you with a knife, you know, and really get your heart racing for a short period. I think that's also so it doesn't have to take really long, right? I think high intensity using weights might also be really, really be beneficial.

So yeah, yeah, yeah. It is true that high intensity is really beneficial, right? So a lot of people rely too, too much on long term cardio, right? While Huberman also talked about it. So every day you should wake up, look at the light and do something as if someone was kind of chasing you with a knife, you know, and really get your heart racing for a short period. I think that's also so it doesn't have to take really long, right? I think high intensity using weights might also be really, really be beneficial.

Lovely. Let's take it to that because that could be a whole episode, I guess. Moving to my health wisdom, it's a small one. I saw Uber health passing by. Uber Health was first launched in 2018. The idea behind it was that in the states, health care workers, if they have a contract or a deal with Uber Health, they could book a ride for a patient. It's mainly non-emergency medical transportation, of course, but it was it had as a purpose to reduce missed appointments and to even improve patient outcomes, of course, because if they come to the appointment, it's always better. Now in 2020, what they did, of course, in the middle of Covid is they began offering prescription drug delivery. It was in partnership with a company called Nimble. I think we talked about it on the show previously, but just a couple weeks ago, what they did now is they announced a new service, which is the same day prescription delivery. And so the idea is that a care coordinator that is already using Uber health can also ship prescriptions and track the arrival of the prescriptions. So, of course, for Uber, it's a way to differentiate versus other rideshare companies like Lyft who also have this non-emergency medical transportation. I think it's a it's a small thing, but what I like about it is specifically it helps to meet the patient's expectations, which often in healthcare is not always the case or it's a little bit more difficult. I put it that way. Aditi, back to you. What other health reasons did you see the past month?

Lovely. Let's take it to that because that could be a whole episode, I guess. Moving to my health wisdom, it's a small one. I saw Uber health passing by. Uber Health was first launched in 2018. The idea behind it was that in the states, health care workers, if they have a contract or a deal with Uber Health, they could book a ride for a patient. It's mainly non-emergency medical transportation, of course, but it was it had as a purpose to reduce missed appointments and to even improve patient outcomes, of course, because if they come to the appointment, it's always better. Now in 2020, what they did, of course, in the middle of Covid is they began offering prescription drug delivery. It was in partnership with a company called Nimble. I think we talked about it on the show previously, but just a couple weeks ago, what they did now is they announced a new service, which is the same day prescription delivery. And so the idea is that a care coordinator that is already using Uber health can also ship prescriptions and track the arrival of the prescriptions. So, of course, for Uber, it's a way to differentiate versus other rideshare companies like Lyft who also have this non-emergency medical transportation. I think it's a it's a small thing, but what I like about it is specifically it helps to meet the patient's expectations, which often in healthcare is not always the case or it's a little bit more difficult. I put it that way. Aditi, back to you. What other health reasons did you see the past month?

Yeah, So, you know, everyone's been talking about ChatGPT and obviously it's a big thing in medicine too. I had been playing around with it just looking at their answers for various topics in telemedicine that I know. I will say the first version, it wasn't very detailed. The second one is certainly a lot better. But you know, we were talking about like, what is it actually useful? And one thing that I read about was using it for children, understanding their speech patterns, improving their speech therapy. And it reminds me of the fact that really all of this is not really meant to replace anything. It's to use as an adjunct, as a tool, almost like putting it in your, let's say, white coat pocket so that you can use it alongside all of the other tools that we have in medicine. But I find it very interesting that we can use it for children. I mean, there's always various use cases, and every time I hear a one, I'm like, Oh, that makes sense. But being able to understand children, maybe the way that you learn it, the way that they can basically look at the way that they're trying to speak or trying to say something and be able to translate that. That's really fascinating to me.

Yeah, So, you know, everyone's been talking about ChatGPT and obviously it's a big thing in medicine too. I had been playing around with it just looking at their answers for various topics in telemedicine that I know. I will say the first version, it wasn't very detailed. The second one is certainly a lot better. But you know, we were talking about like, what is it actually useful? And one thing that I read about was using it for children, understanding their speech patterns, improving their speech therapy. And it reminds me of the fact that really all of this is not really meant to replace anything. It's to use as an adjunct, as a tool, almost like putting it in your, let's say, white coat pocket so that you can use it alongside all of the other tools that we have in medicine. But I find it very interesting that we can use it for children. I mean, there's always various use cases, and every time I hear a one, I'm like, Oh, that makes sense. But being able to understand children, maybe the way that you learn it, the way that they can basically look at the way that they're trying to speak or trying to say something and be able to translate that. That's really fascinating to me.

Yeah, I also think that's one of the most exciting things about ChatGPT. I heard you say that you were you're bouncing off some ideas or questions to ChatGPT just to know whether the. So correct. The way that I use ChatGPT actually is it's like I use it as a conversation partner. So for my second book, I'm in the final phase of writing it. I've been saying that for two years now, but I've been. What I've been trying to use ChatGPT for is I'm talking with ChatGPT asking him questions, his or him or her or it questions about the things that I want to write about. And I go deeper into that conversation. It's like talking to yourself, but then with ChatGPT and it brings you new ideas because actually things that you haven't thought of. Now, second to ChatGPT. I don't know if you've seen it passing by Aditi, but if I understood correctly, it has passed the tests of the medical license licensing exam in the States with flying colors, apparently, as as the article mentioned. Did you see that passing by?

Yeah, I also think that's one of the most exciting things about ChatGPT. I heard you say that you were you're bouncing off some ideas or questions to ChatGPT just to know whether the. So correct. The way that I use ChatGPT actually is it's like I use it as a conversation partner. So for my second book, I'm in the final phase of writing it. I've been saying that for two years now, but I've been. What I've been trying to use ChatGPT for is I'm talking with ChatGPT asking him questions, his or him or her or it questions about the things that I want to write about. And I go deeper into that conversation. It's like talking to yourself, but then with ChatGPT and it brings you new ideas because actually things that you haven't thought of. Now, second to ChatGPT. I don't know if you've seen it passing by Aditi, but if I understood correctly, it has passed the tests of the medical license licensing exam in the States with flying colors, apparently, as as the article mentioned. Did you see that passing by?

I did. I'll just say that in general, that makes sense. It should, right. Because the way that our test is written is somebody you could machine learn the exam. But like all things in medicine, it's not really that test that tells you how good a physician you'll be. It's really applying that knowledge, which is what obviously ChatGPT cannot do.

I did. I'll just say that in general, that makes sense. It should, right. Because the way that our test is written is somebody you could machine learn the exam. But like all things in medicine, it's not really that test that tells you how good a physician you'll be. It's really applying that knowledge, which is what obviously ChatGPT cannot do.

Exactly. I mean, what it said, I mean, if ever if you go to the article and even some other articles related to it is that 90% of his answers were safe enough not to be harmful, 90% is not. I mean, it's good, but I mean, 10% is still high. Quite. But then at the same time, what it said is that only 41% of these answers were really strong enough, complete enough, not vague, and were confirmed and approved by medical experts. So it isn't always right. It's not always complete. Right. So. Right.

Exactly. I mean, what it said, I mean, if ever if you go to the article and even some other articles related to it is that 90% of his answers were safe enough not to be harmful, 90% is not. I mean, it's good, but I mean, 10% is still high. Quite. But then at the same time, what it said is that only 41% of these answers were really strong enough, complete enough, not vague, and were confirmed and approved by medical experts. So it isn't always right. It's not always complete. Right. So. Right.

We can't expect that. But you know, what would be interesting is finding out what the percentage of what humans do or at what percentage they're getting it wrong. But the difference is, is that we would in that moment change. Right? If someone were to say to me in front of me, okay, well, this doesn't make sense. I've tried this, this and this, you would we would just do something else. I have a.

We can't expect that. But you know, what would be interesting is finding out what the percentage of what humans do or at what percentage they're getting it wrong. But the difference is, is that we would in that moment change. Right? If someone were to say to me in front of me, okay, well, this doesn't make sense. I've tried this, this and this, you would we would just do something else. I have a.

Question for you about that. What is it exactly that that you're missing? Because the student does not really have hands on experience seeing patients. Right. So passing the exam is one thing. Having experience is the other thing. So what what is it exactly that you were missing in these answers?

Question for you about that. What is it exactly that that you're missing? Because the student does not really have hands on experience seeing patients. Right. So passing the exam is one thing. Having experience is the other thing. So what what is it exactly that you were missing in these answers?

Well, I mean, the US, Emily, In fact, most of the first one we take is at the end of our second year. And that usually, yes, very little clinical experience, but all the rest of them, the second and third one, we do have clinical experience by the time we take them. So there's some applicable knowledge. And then really once we do our residency, there's more of it. Yes, I see what you mean. But the reality is, is what I think when we think of medicine, we think of it as just a straight science. It's really not. It's like an applied science because a lot of it is based on individuals, because we don't know enough about precision medicine to be able to say this is what this person specifically needs. I know that's another branch and people are working on that. And then the other thing is that we just don't know everything that there is to know right? So there's a lot of experience that's used to do that, that and it may just be something that we're not able to vocalize. And so we're not able to really say how that works. Now, saying that if a machine can learn that mean I can't say that's not possible. I just don't think it's necessarily at that level now.

Well, I mean, the US, Emily, In fact, most of the first one we take is at the end of our second year. And that usually, yes, very little clinical experience, but all the rest of them, the second and third one, we do have clinical experience by the time we take them. So there's some applicable knowledge. And then really once we do our residency, there's more of it. Yes, I see what you mean. But the reality is, is what I think when we think of medicine, we think of it as just a straight science. It's really not. It's like an applied science because a lot of it is based on individuals, because we don't know enough about precision medicine to be able to say this is what this person specifically needs. I know that's another branch and people are working on that. And then the other thing is that we just don't know everything that there is to know right? So there's a lot of experience that's used to do that, that and it may just be something that we're not able to vocalize. And so we're not able to really say how that works. Now, saying that if a machine can learn that mean I can't say that's not possible. I just don't think it's necessarily at that level now.

And it also has no ethical compass whatsoever. So I think that is one of the biggest differences as a final two years and just a book that maybe your brain on art, it's a book about neuro aesthetics. If you're into that, it describes how science behind art can help us change the spaces around us, trigger an actual feeling of happiness in AR. And if you're interested in this field, I mean, there's even this lab out there made by Johns Hopkins Medicine Organization, the Peterson Brain Science Institute and the International Arts organization. They all together created the Lab, which is a multidisciplinary initiative to accelerate this field of neuro aesthetics. But the book Your Brain on Art is really about how can neurochemicals be triggered by being in a certain area in a spiritual environment similar to what you receive when when you're watching virtual reality, read poetry, fiction, film, whatever. So interesting. I'll come back to to that type of triggering later in the podcast. Thank you for this. It is a healthy world indeed. What we see is a many, many positive changes that are making our world a little healthier and happier every day. I personally enjoy watching these changes unfold, analyze them and try to understand the broader impact of these changes. I even write a newsletter about it called It's a Healthy World. If you're interested, go and discover them on healthy.com. Now, every month during the health season podcasts, I'll recap one particular newsletter for the panel to debate, and this month's newsletter is Elemental Health. So elemental Health is about mental health. Of course, it was probably one of the most difficult to write newsletters that I've done in the recent two years because mental health is basically complex, right? It includes our emotional, psychological and social well-being, but it is also very much intertwined with lots and lots of aspects in our life. And looking at our life or life has not always been that easy in recent years. Thinks about, you know, climate change, recession. So how could I make it different? How could I write something that was not already written a zillion times before? And so what I did is I try to write about the five phases or the five evolutions of mental health that I've seen in recent history or that I'm seeing happening right now towards when I look at the future. I had some fun. I tried to be creative. And so the five phases were the detrimental phase, the experimental phase, the fundamental phase, the instrumental phase and the elemental phase. As you can see, I've been a bit creative. Let's just quickly go through them. The detrimental phase, of course, is about the accumulation of all the bad circumstances that are actually detrimental to our mental health, Of course. I mean, I don't think there's a lot of explanation necessary for this phase, but maybe just one number and some remarkable and very exciting new words that are around to us today. One number, the W.H.O. expects that the global cost of depression and 2030 will be as high as the total global healthcare spending in 2012. That's a huge right. Some interesting words Glow Faces Doomscrolling movies, The pleasure trap apps, Snapchat dysmorphia, Adonis complex wellness syndromes, Toxic positivity echo chambers, gaslighting love bombing, zombie viruses, plastic beaches, eco anxiety, zoom fatigue, in-box. Infinity. I do love all these words, but none of these are very good for our mental health. Of course, that was the first phase, the experimental phase. The second phase is that the increased focus that we all have on mental health by creating, I may even say, endless options and experimentations. We know that people aspire to be healthy and happy. This is what this podcast is all about. But what we do see is that people do not only take actions to impact their physical health, but also their mental health. And so in that regard, more solutions come to market. And actually venture capital funds have called this moment the golden age of mental health tech. But also industries are moving into the mental health sphere, mood boosting foods, music, interiors. We see retreats, we see travel plans, focus on mental health. We see a lot of things happening at work. We see exercising for mental health. In fact, the global mental wellness and mental health economy is valued at. Listen to this $121 billion, $121 billion. So there's a lot of experimentation with the good things and the bad things, the positive and negative sides, positive side being, you know, stigma around mental health goes away at least a little bit more. But the negative side is that, I mean, all these people talking about mental health, they often don't have a medical degree. So what can we really learn from it? And also the popularity related to mental health might make people self maybe a bit too easy. Making the worst cases remain unnoticed, for example. So we're in this experimental phase where a lot of things happen for the good and for the bad. Right now I think we are moving into a third phase, which I call the fundamental phase, saying that there is a growing belief that mental health is fundamentally more than the sum of its parts. We know that, you know, the current health care system might not always be 100% well equipped to deal with this huge influx of mental health issues. And we also know that experiments are in its infancy phase. This is part of the experimental phase, of course. But what we see now is that a lot of people are very hopeful that we will have a very positive and growing evolutions around mental health. And that optimism comes from two things. Basically the fact that communities will play a huge role in mental health and the fact that we are more focused on a holistic approach communities. We're talking about how you can talk about mental health at work or in school, but also different, you know, retailers like Little and Marks and Spencer, even Lululemon, has set up several initiatives to create, you know, communities where people can talk about their mental well-being. Second thing is the holistic approach. Of course, we realize more than ever that mental health is closely related to physical health, for example, but we also treat mental health beyond just taking medication. So in this fundamental phase, what we see is that we go beyond the small little experimentation, that we try to look at it from a broader perspective, from a community perspective or even from a. Stick approach. But that's not enough because for the next phase, what we will need is more scientific and more technological advancement. And I call this the instrumental phase, because science and technology will be instrumental in mental health care. I believe that there will three instrumental changes the use of biomarkers, for example, blood tests, the use of genomics. And I think both can help in the diagnosis, which is difficult right now. And the treatment, which is also difficult right now. Then we have, of course, the rule, the role of nutrition and mental health, because there's an increased conviction that there's a close link between gut health and brain health. And finally, the metaverse, which might increase access to potential health support. All three are expected to have a radical impact on mental health, at least in my opinion. And that's why they are so instrumental for the future. But then we arrive in a fifth phase and so why we are establishing still the fundamentals and the instrumentals or the instrumental parts of our mental health. Mental health in itself will in turn become more elemental to our overall health. What do you mean by that is that when you have a poor mental health or a poor psychological health, it can limit you from taking healthy decisions. I mean, obviously we know that poor mental health is often linked to obesity, gastrointestinal issues, cardiovascular diseases, maybe even a weakened immune system. And so what I believe is that in defining that final phase, I think we will see more focus on mental health and the impact that it has on our overall health. You can even make a statement that a poor mental health will be the most critical part of our public health impact that we might have. And so that's why I believe that in the future, mental health and wellbeing become an essential part of our overall health. And that's how I wrote this newsletter about the recent history of today's reality and maybe the future of mental health. Back to the panel now. Mo, what's your thought on on the way that I wrote it and how I look at mental health and how it is evolves?

And it also has no ethical compass whatsoever. So I think that is one of the biggest differences as a final two years and just a book that maybe your brain on art, it's a book about neuro aesthetics. If you're into that, it describes how science behind art can help us change the spaces around us, trigger an actual feeling of happiness in AR. And if you're interested in this field, I mean, there's even this lab out there made by Johns Hopkins Medicine Organization, the Peterson Brain Science Institute and the International Arts organization. They all together created the Lab, which is a multidisciplinary initiative to accelerate this field of neuro aesthetics. But the book Your Brain on Art is really about how can neurochemicals be triggered by being in a certain area in a spiritual environment similar to what you receive when when you're watching virtual reality, read poetry, fiction, film, whatever. So interesting. I'll come back to to that type of triggering later in the podcast. Thank you for this. It is a healthy world indeed. What we see is a many, many positive changes that are making our world a little healthier and happier every day. I personally enjoy watching these changes unfold, analyze them and try to understand the broader impact of these changes. I even write a newsletter about it called It's a Healthy World. If you're interested, go and discover them on healthy.com. Now, every month during the health season podcasts, I'll recap one particular newsletter for the panel to debate, and this month's newsletter is Elemental Health. So elemental Health is about mental health. Of course, it was probably one of the most difficult to write newsletters that I've done in the recent two years because mental health is basically complex, right? It includes our emotional, psychological and social well-being, but it is also very much intertwined with lots and lots of aspects in our life. And looking at our life or life has not always been that easy in recent years. Thinks about, you know, climate change, recession. So how could I make it different? How could I write something that was not already written a zillion times before? And so what I did is I try to write about the five phases or the five evolutions of mental health that I've seen in recent history or that I'm seeing happening right now towards when I look at the future. I had some fun. I tried to be creative. And so the five phases were the detrimental phase, the experimental phase, the fundamental phase, the instrumental phase and the elemental phase. As you can see, I've been a bit creative. Let's just quickly go through them. The detrimental phase, of course, is about the accumulation of all the bad circumstances that are actually detrimental to our mental health, Of course. I mean, I don't think there's a lot of explanation necessary for this phase, but maybe just one number and some remarkable and very exciting new words that are around to us today. One number, the W.H.O. expects that the global cost of depression and 2030 will be as high as the total global healthcare spending in 2012. That's a huge right. Some interesting words Glow Faces Doomscrolling movies, The pleasure trap apps, Snapchat dysmorphia, Adonis complex wellness syndromes, Toxic positivity echo chambers, gaslighting love bombing, zombie viruses, plastic beaches, eco anxiety, zoom fatigue, in-box. Infinity. I do love all these words, but none of these are very good for our mental health. Of course, that was the first phase, the experimental phase. The second phase is that the increased focus that we all have on mental health by creating, I may even say, endless options and experimentations. We know that people aspire to be healthy and happy. This is what this podcast is all about. But what we do see is that people do not only take actions to impact their physical health, but also their mental health. And so in that regard, more solutions come to market. And actually venture capital funds have called this moment the golden age of mental health tech. But also industries are moving into the mental health sphere, mood boosting foods, music, interiors. We see retreats, we see travel plans, focus on mental health. We see a lot of things happening at work. We see exercising for mental health. In fact, the global mental wellness and mental health economy is valued at. Listen to this $121 billion, $121 billion. So there's a lot of experimentation with the good things and the bad things, the positive and negative sides, positive side being, you know, stigma around mental health goes away at least a little bit more. But the negative side is that, I mean, all these people talking about mental health, they often don't have a medical degree. So what can we really learn from it? And also the popularity related to mental health might make people self maybe a bit too easy. Making the worst cases remain unnoticed, for example. So we're in this experimental phase where a lot of things happen for the good and for the bad. Right now I think we are moving into a third phase, which I call the fundamental phase, saying that there is a growing belief that mental health is fundamentally more than the sum of its parts. We know that, you know, the current health care system might not always be 100% well equipped to deal with this huge influx of mental health issues. And we also know that experiments are in its infancy phase. This is part of the experimental phase, of course. But what we see now is that a lot of people are very hopeful that we will have a very positive and growing evolutions around mental health. And that optimism comes from two things. Basically the fact that communities will play a huge role in mental health and the fact that we are more focused on a holistic approach communities. We're talking about how you can talk about mental health at work or in school, but also different, you know, retailers like Little and Marks and Spencer, even Lululemon, has set up several initiatives to create, you know, communities where people can talk about their mental well-being. Second thing is the holistic approach. Of course, we realize more than ever that mental health is closely related to physical health, for example, but we also treat mental health beyond just taking medication. So in this fundamental phase, what we see is that we go beyond the small little experimentation, that we try to look at it from a broader perspective, from a community perspective or even from a. Stick approach. But that's not enough because for the next phase, what we will need is more scientific and more technological advancement. And I call this the instrumental phase, because science and technology will be instrumental in mental health care. I believe that there will three instrumental changes the use of biomarkers, for example, blood tests, the use of genomics. And I think both can help in the diagnosis, which is difficult right now. And the treatment, which is also difficult right now. Then we have, of course, the rule, the role of nutrition and mental health, because there's an increased conviction that there's a close link between gut health and brain health. And finally, the metaverse, which might increase access to potential health support. All three are expected to have a radical impact on mental health, at least in my opinion. And that's why they are so instrumental for the future. But then we arrive in a fifth phase and so why we are establishing still the fundamentals and the instrumentals or the instrumental parts of our mental health. Mental health in itself will in turn become more elemental to our overall health. What do you mean by that is that when you have a poor mental health or a poor psychological health, it can limit you from taking healthy decisions. I mean, obviously we know that poor mental health is often linked to obesity, gastrointestinal issues, cardiovascular diseases, maybe even a weakened immune system. And so what I believe is that in defining that final phase, I think we will see more focus on mental health and the impact that it has on our overall health. You can even make a statement that a poor mental health will be the most critical part of our public health impact that we might have. And so that's why I believe that in the future, mental health and wellbeing become an essential part of our overall health. And that's how I wrote this newsletter about the recent history of today's reality and maybe the future of mental health. Back to the panel now. Mo, what's your thought on on the way that I wrote it and how I look at mental health and how it is evolves?

Thank you. I think it was not only created, but it was quite complete. What I love about your article, Christophe, is that it confirms that how we care for mental health and how we give it attention is being demystified, and that's hopeful. I think it will also create a criminal opportunities for meaningful, for meaningful businesses to impact something. You know, think just like climate change created a new economy, I think mental health will create a new economy. But the figures you are, you know, showing and how much value it has also tells us how hard of a challenge it is. Right. And a big fundamental part of mental health resides in two significant factors that we have difficulties controlling. That's why it's so hard or we think we have difficulties controlling. The first is the ecosystem, the environment in which we find ourselves from a micro point of view, from a macro point of view. And secondly, it's our behaviors and thoughts. And that is where I am a bit less optimistic because this is where human nature comes back to bite us in the butt. And knowing human nature, we know that we love shortcuts. And as a brand experience geek, any brand, any product, any service is boosted by convenience. Easy, simple, effortless. And that is where I think chemistry or real interventions will take the upper hand once available. Look at stomach balloons. You lie down, people do it for you. We have been serviced in sickness. And I think what we see now is that we talked about Victoria, a jab. And you lose you lose weight, Right. So as long as the shortcuts require less effort. Effort, meaning. Effort, resources, money, then prevention. We're kind of stuck. Because the ecosystem we're fighting in, the biology, the human nature re fighting is so strong that I applaud every initiative. They will all benefit from it. But I think once we have a convenient, effortless solution, look at microdosing, right? It's so successful because the effort is low. You just have to take something and it kind of works. The most people. Most people are here taking microdosing are really, really happy, right? So love the attention. I think it's paramount that it's demystified, that it's not stigmatized anymore, that we include it into our overall well-being. But the solutions, I think, will require convenience and simplicity.

Thank you. I think it was not only created, but it was quite complete. What I love about your article, Christophe, is that it confirms that how we care for mental health and how we give it attention is being demystified, and that's hopeful. I think it will also create a criminal opportunities for meaningful, for meaningful businesses to impact something. You know, think just like climate change created a new economy, I think mental health will create a new economy. But the figures you are, you know, showing and how much value it has also tells us how hard of a challenge it is. Right. And a big fundamental part of mental health resides in two significant factors that we have difficulties controlling. That's why it's so hard or we think we have difficulties controlling. The first is the ecosystem, the environment in which we find ourselves from a micro point of view, from a macro point of view. And secondly, it's our behaviors and thoughts. And that is where I am a bit less optimistic because this is where human nature comes back to bite us in the butt. And knowing human nature, we know that we love shortcuts. And as a brand experience geek, any brand, any product, any service is boosted by convenience. Easy, simple, effortless. And that is where I think chemistry or real interventions will take the upper hand once available. Look at stomach balloons. You lie down, people do it for you. We have been serviced in sickness. And I think what we see now is that we talked about Victoria, a jab. And you lose you lose weight, Right. So as long as the shortcuts require less effort. Effort, meaning. Effort, resources, money, then prevention. We're kind of stuck. Because the ecosystem we're fighting in, the biology, the human nature re fighting is so strong that I applaud every initiative. They will all benefit from it. But I think once we have a convenient, effortless solution, look at microdosing, right? It's so successful because the effort is low. You just have to take something and it kind of works. The most people. Most people are here taking microdosing are really, really happy, right? So love the attention. I think it's paramount that it's demystified, that it's not stigmatized anymore, that we include it into our overall well-being. But the solutions, I think, will require convenience and simplicity.

De-stigmatize, I think. Aditi, you had some thoughts on that, right?

De-stigmatize, I think. Aditi, you had some thoughts on that, right?

I agree. You know, mental health is a really big issue and we're definitely seeing a lot more about it since the pandemic happened, since there's at least a recognition of how important it is. Also, there has been at least a decrease in everybody's mental health since that happened. And of course, when we look at the causes of it or what we can do to fix it, it is multifactorial. It affects not only our daily life, it affects our physical health. ET cetera. I do agree with Mo that it is really difficult. Some of the things that we have to do for ourselves, some of the things or exercises that we might be given by therapists or mental health providers can be difficult to overcome. And some of us, we just you know, we've come to a place in history that we want the easy fix. Well, maybe it was always like that. I have no idea. I haven't. I wasn't around. But, you know, we really want an easy fix. We're like a society of, like, clickbait and quick things to make our nervous system come down. Anything. Right. We we have these hits on social media, for example, And so it becomes harder to ask us to take the time to really build up some of the skills that are needed. I mean, I can give you an example. When I had burnout for a while and or twice, really, and when I talk about it, some of the things that I had to do to get over it the first time or really hard things or really a lot of changing your outlook on how things work, it's worth it. It's made my life better now, but it wasn't easy and I don't. And I understand why people don't necessarily want to do it. And the second thing I'll say is that even though we've come a long way in our discussion about mental health, we have to remember that it's still overall in the world a stigmatized situation. A lot of people don't have access to it. They don't feel like they should have access to it, even if they feel like they want it. Maybe they're told by their family, their friends, their community that it's something that they don't need. And there's a lot of pressure and societal messaging that creates that situation. And, you know, coming back to my example, doctors are some of that group. They are they there's a lot of stigma to get mental health or care for burnout. And it really does make a difference in how we ask for help or really don't ask for help. So, you know, I think it's a really important topic. I think some of these things need to be continuously talked about because it isn't actually easy.

I agree. You know, mental health is a really big issue and we're definitely seeing a lot more about it since the pandemic happened, since there's at least a recognition of how important it is. Also, there has been at least a decrease in everybody's mental health since that happened. And of course, when we look at the causes of it or what we can do to fix it, it is multifactorial. It affects not only our daily life, it affects our physical health. ET cetera. I do agree with Mo that it is really difficult. Some of the things that we have to do for ourselves, some of the things or exercises that we might be given by therapists or mental health providers can be difficult to overcome. And some of us, we just you know, we've come to a place in history that we want the easy fix. Well, maybe it was always like that. I have no idea. I haven't. I wasn't around. But, you know, we really want an easy fix. We're like a society of, like, clickbait and quick things to make our nervous system come down. Anything. Right. We we have these hits on social media, for example, And so it becomes harder to ask us to take the time to really build up some of the skills that are needed. I mean, I can give you an example. When I had burnout for a while and or twice, really, and when I talk about it, some of the things that I had to do to get over it the first time or really hard things or really a lot of changing your outlook on how things work, it's worth it. It's made my life better now, but it wasn't easy and I don't. And I understand why people don't necessarily want to do it. And the second thing I'll say is that even though we've come a long way in our discussion about mental health, we have to remember that it's still overall in the world a stigmatized situation. A lot of people don't have access to it. They don't feel like they should have access to it, even if they feel like they want it. Maybe they're told by their family, their friends, their community that it's something that they don't need. And there's a lot of pressure and societal messaging that creates that situation. And, you know, coming back to my example, doctors are some of that group. They are they there's a lot of stigma to get mental health or care for burnout. And it really does make a difference in how we ask for help or really don't ask for help. So, you know, I think it's a really important topic. I think some of these things need to be continuously talked about because it isn't actually easy.

Yeah, fully agree. What you wanted to jump in.

Yeah, fully agree. What you wanted to jump in.

I've been working in the the area of quality of life and burnout for a while. I worked in a Spanish clinic that specializes in that. And what I overall see is that people underestimate the time it took for it to appear versus the time it will take for it to disappear. And there is the I don't know how you call it in English in physics, that there's the law, that that energy is transmitted in the same way, but in a different form, that you the energy is never lost. So the energy it took to create the illness and the time it took to create the illness, that's what ideally says we want the shortcut. We do not acknowledge how latent and how long it took for it to happen. And we just want a shortcut. We we want a life hack for for health and wellness. And I my experience is if people acknowledge how long it took for it to happen, they are more elegant with themselves and they give themselves more time to be able to address it. And I think that's that's an interesting part.

I've been working in the the area of quality of life and burnout for a while. I worked in a Spanish clinic that specializes in that. And what I overall see is that people underestimate the time it took for it to appear versus the time it will take for it to disappear. And there is the I don't know how you call it in English in physics, that there's the law, that that energy is transmitted in the same way, but in a different form, that you the energy is never lost. So the energy it took to create the illness and the time it took to create the illness, that's what ideally says we want the shortcut. We do not acknowledge how latent and how long it took for it to happen. And we just want a shortcut. We we want a life hack for for health and wellness. And I my experience is if people acknowledge how long it took for it to happen, they are more elegant with themselves and they give themselves more time to be able to address it. And I think that's that's an interesting part.

And I like your idea about the shortcuts. Indeed. Because, I mean, if you look at everything that humans have created was always shortcuts. How can we shortcuts the reward that we get from something, right? If we look at social media, it's a shortcut for so called social contact. If we look at reality shows, it's basically the same that we saw maybe in our, you know, small villages 50, 60 years ago. But it's easy to do it from your couch. You don't need to go, don't need to go out outside. Porn is exactly the same thing. It's it's a it's a shortcut for some relief or some rewards that otherwise might require a lot more effort. Right. So, I mean, everything that we made is around the shortcut. So and I do believe that. It will be struggle and it will be very hard in the next years to come. Specifically because it is indeed quite, quite hard to to over overcome needs and.

And I like your idea about the shortcuts. Indeed. Because, I mean, if you look at everything that humans have created was always shortcuts. How can we shortcuts the reward that we get from something, right? If we look at social media, it's a shortcut for so called social contact. If we look at reality shows, it's basically the same that we saw maybe in our, you know, small villages 50, 60 years ago. But it's easy to do it from your couch. You don't need to go, don't need to go out outside. Porn is exactly the same thing. It's it's a it's a shortcut for some relief or some rewards that otherwise might require a lot more effort. Right. So, I mean, everything that we made is around the shortcut. So and I do believe that. It will be struggle and it will be very hard in the next years to come. Specifically because it is indeed quite, quite hard to to over overcome needs and.

The level of support you get on mental health. Right. How the system currently is organised is also underwhelming. If you look at the way not to say that cancer should have less resources, right, or that other diseases, cardiovascular disease should have less resources, but if we acknowledge the severity of the indication, we should also equip the system to be able to address that and service people longer on that and more intensely. Okay.

The level of support you get on mental health. Right. How the system currently is organised is also underwhelming. If you look at the way not to say that cancer should have less resources, right, or that other diseases, cardiovascular disease should have less resources, but if we acknowledge the severity of the indication, we should also equip the system to be able to address that and service people longer on that and more intensely. Okay.

Thanks for that discussion. Now let's move to the next segment of the Health System podcast. Is it something nothing or everything? So every month one of the panelists brings an ID, an innovation or an evolution forward that sparked their health. The rest of the panel will then debate and share their opinion about it. To define it. Something, nothing or everything. And this month I'll be the one that brings forward the article that I read. It was about the digital wellness lab at Boston Children's Hospital and Harvard Medical School. It's about social media, or at least the problematic media use that youngsters have, because we know that young people live their lives on social media and we know that it's not going away easily. And so parents and even pediatricians, they need to learn to recognize when that behavior becomes a problem, because we all know social media has been linked to obesity and diabetes. We all know that social media has can or at least can contribute to an impaired social interaction, social isolation and even loneliness. Social media can lead to somatic and mental health problems, including anxiety, depression and stress. It's linked to sleep deficits, to poor dietary habits. It can cause cognitive impairment with symptoms of distraction, procrastination and ADHD. Social media is also associated with substance related and behavioral addictions, such as gambling and social media may increase the addiction to social media as well. If you're interested in knowing what all the negative effects of social media can be, there's actually a public Google doc available. I find it in an article it said that the Google doc was a 250 page long summary of all published articles about social media and mental health. 250 pages. Now, when I clicked on the link, it was already 310 pages. It's made by Gene or Gene Twenge, a psychology professor at San Diego State University. And Jonathan Haidt is social psychologist at the New York University. So there's a lot of relationship between social media and mental health. And what we see definitely in the States right now, there are about 150 product liability lawsuits filed in the US against the social media platforms like Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat and even YouTube. That's according to the Financial Times. We also saw Utah State of Utah just passed a law limiting social media for minors. And Arkansans and Texas are following suit. School districts in Seattle and even in California are suing leading platforms, charging that they are delivering harmful content to kids, kids and Congress. And the US, of course, is putting pressure for a ban on TikTok, among other things, obviously because of the harmful impact it has on the kids in the States, but even around the world, of course. Now there is this pediatrician, Michael Rich, who is an associate professor at Harvard Medical School, and also the School of Public Health. And he argues that unhealthy Internet use is not, per se, an addiction. He calls it a disorder. And he dubbed it he called it the problematic interactive Media use or PMU. That indicates a couple of underlying problems, which include also ADHD, mood or anxiety disorders or even autism. Now, PMU problematic interactive media use is actually a collection of symptoms that kids might have when they are seeking to suit themselves, to comfort themselves or even to distract themselves. Now, Michael Rich and his colleagues defined PMU and two and kind of made four categories. You have the uncontrolled video gaming, you have the social media use, you have pornography viewing, and you have information binging of short videos or websites, aka TikTok and reels on Instagram, for example. Now, the thing is that this pediatrician, Michael Rich, he has created the digital wellness lab at the Boston Children's Hospital and Harvard Medical School. The purpose of this digital wellness lab is to engage all stakeholders, both from academic research, healthcare and even the corporate industries, and an open collaboration that is designed to deepen the understanding of the positive and the negative effects of the media. And the technology that is used by young people. Purpose is also to understand how they are using them. Of course, basically the lab is trying to address the concerns of parents, doctors and lawmakers because parents and pediatricians are saying kids are in trouble, policymakers are freaking out and they're saying we've got to make a lot of this. And then the second entertainment companies are in such mentality and defensive mode. So this is not a healthy situation. And so what the Digital Wellness Lab wants to do is they want to analyze. All of this, but without vilifying the companies that are involved. Now, it has to be said that the Digital Wellness Lab exists thanks to the sponsorship from major tech platforms such as Twitch, Roblox, Snap, Discord's, Meta and also TikTok. Dr. Michael Rich says it's really about the behavior. It's not really about the device because, I mean, there's a ton of good examples with smartphones and social media, so they are doing fine. So it's really about understanding the behavior. So I wanted to bring this article forward and ask the panel, is this something nothing or everything? Aditi, what's your thought on this?

Thanks for that discussion. Now let's move to the next segment of the Health System podcast. Is it something nothing or everything? So every month one of the panelists brings an ID, an innovation or an evolution forward that sparked their health. The rest of the panel will then debate and share their opinion about it. To define it. Something, nothing or everything. And this month I'll be the one that brings forward the article that I read. It was about the digital wellness lab at Boston Children's Hospital and Harvard Medical School. It's about social media, or at least the problematic media use that youngsters have, because we know that young people live their lives on social media and we know that it's not going away easily. And so parents and even pediatricians, they need to learn to recognize when that behavior becomes a problem, because we all know social media has been linked to obesity and diabetes. We all know that social media has can or at least can contribute to an impaired social interaction, social isolation and even loneliness. Social media can lead to somatic and mental health problems, including anxiety, depression and stress. It's linked to sleep deficits, to poor dietary habits. It can cause cognitive impairment with symptoms of distraction, procrastination and ADHD. Social media is also associated with substance related and behavioral addictions, such as gambling and social media may increase the addiction to social media as well. If you're interested in knowing what all the negative effects of social media can be, there's actually a public Google doc available. I find it in an article it said that the Google doc was a 250 page long summary of all published articles about social media and mental health. 250 pages. Now, when I clicked on the link, it was already 310 pages. It's made by Gene or Gene Twenge, a psychology professor at San Diego State University. And Jonathan Haidt is social psychologist at the New York University. So there's a lot of relationship between social media and mental health. And what we see definitely in the States right now, there are about 150 product liability lawsuits filed in the US against the social media platforms like Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat and even YouTube. That's according to the Financial Times. We also saw Utah State of Utah just passed a law limiting social media for minors. And Arkansans and Texas are following suit. School districts in Seattle and even in California are suing leading platforms, charging that they are delivering harmful content to kids, kids and Congress. And the US, of course, is putting pressure for a ban on TikTok, among other things, obviously because of the harmful impact it has on the kids in the States, but even around the world, of course. Now there is this pediatrician, Michael Rich, who is an associate professor at Harvard Medical School, and also the School of Public Health. And he argues that unhealthy Internet use is not, per se, an addiction. He calls it a disorder. And he dubbed it he called it the problematic interactive Media use or PMU. That indicates a couple of underlying problems, which include also ADHD, mood or anxiety disorders or even autism. Now, PMU problematic interactive media use is actually a collection of symptoms that kids might have when they are seeking to suit themselves, to comfort themselves or even to distract themselves. Now, Michael Rich and his colleagues defined PMU and two and kind of made four categories. You have the uncontrolled video gaming, you have the social media use, you have pornography viewing, and you have information binging of short videos or websites, aka TikTok and reels on Instagram, for example. Now, the thing is that this pediatrician, Michael Rich, he has created the digital wellness lab at the Boston Children's Hospital and Harvard Medical School. The purpose of this digital wellness lab is to engage all stakeholders, both from academic research, healthcare and even the corporate industries, and an open collaboration that is designed to deepen the understanding of the positive and the negative effects of the media. And the technology that is used by young people. Purpose is also to understand how they are using them. Of course, basically the lab is trying to address the concerns of parents, doctors and lawmakers because parents and pediatricians are saying kids are in trouble, policymakers are freaking out and they're saying we've got to make a lot of this. And then the second entertainment companies are in such mentality and defensive mode. So this is not a healthy situation. And so what the Digital Wellness Lab wants to do is they want to analyze. All of this, but without vilifying the companies that are involved. Now, it has to be said that the Digital Wellness Lab exists thanks to the sponsorship from major tech platforms such as Twitch, Roblox, Snap, Discord's, Meta and also TikTok. Dr. Michael Rich says it's really about the behavior. It's not really about the device because, I mean, there's a ton of good examples with smartphones and social media, so they are doing fine. So it's really about understanding the behavior. So I wanted to bring this article forward and ask the panel, is this something nothing or everything? Aditi, what's your thought on this?

Do you think that there has to be some recognition about how social media affects people even long ago, aside from even the things that you were saying about it? By giving you a lot of information. There is a way that kids get bullied in a huge amount, in a much larger amount than they would when everything was done individually. What I would want to know is in this digital wellness lab, if you're bringing in members and representatives from these companies, is that a conflict? Right. So if you look at the way we look at clinical research in general, if we know that that somebody is funding it, it should be a flag because the data or the outcomes may not be exactly right because there is a conflict of interest. And so I'd be curious, like, what is the goal of having them there? Is it just because they want to improve it for children or do they not? I am generally of the mindset that if there's money to be made, most companies are not going to really help. But I'm fairly pessimistic about that. But I do think it's an important topic and there should be better research and better guidelines and regulations about how to fix this. But I don't know how. Right. So a lot of children are better with technology than their parents are. So how do they how do you actually fix that problem?

Do you think that there has to be some recognition about how social media affects people even long ago, aside from even the things that you were saying about it? By giving you a lot of information. There is a way that kids get bullied in a huge amount, in a much larger amount than they would when everything was done individually. What I would want to know is in this digital wellness lab, if you're bringing in members and representatives from these companies, is that a conflict? Right. So if you look at the way we look at clinical research in general, if we know that that somebody is funding it, it should be a flag because the data or the outcomes may not be exactly right because there is a conflict of interest. And so I'd be curious, like, what is the goal of having them there? Is it just because they want to improve it for children or do they not? I am generally of the mindset that if there's money to be made, most companies are not going to really help. But I'm fairly pessimistic about that. But I do think it's an important topic and there should be better research and better guidelines and regulations about how to fix this. But I don't know how. Right. So a lot of children are better with technology than their parents are. So how do they how do you actually fix that problem?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Talking about the companies being involved, I think I fully agree with you. At the same time, if you look at it from the companies perspective, how can they make considerable effort or change without, you know, involving the medical community or involving the whole ecosystem or different stakeholders, of course. So somehow, from their perspective, I think this is also what they need because they're doing things. I mean, you have the the remind me of a break the day, the time limits and notification that those are the minimum things that they can do. They also give some advice on how to deal with social media. But I think they really need some assistance, I think to have to optimize the way that they function or the impact that they have on kids. At least.

Talking about the companies being involved, I think I fully agree with you. At the same time, if you look at it from the companies perspective, how can they make considerable effort or change without, you know, involving the medical community or involving the whole ecosystem or different stakeholders, of course. So somehow, from their perspective, I think this is also what they need because they're doing things. I mean, you have the the remind me of a break the day, the time limits and notification that those are the minimum things that they can do. They also give some advice on how to deal with social media. But I think they really need some assistance, I think to have to optimize the way that they function or the impact that they have on kids. At least.

I agree. There has to be there has to be a recognition that this is a bigger problem, because I think a lot of, at least the culture in the US is that this is the onus on parents and not on companies or on the community. And that's just not true. I mean, the entire everything is linked together. There isn't like one person that's responsible. This is just the way that the world works. I mean, you can't really stop it in just one aspect or control it from one aspect.

I agree. There has to be there has to be a recognition that this is a bigger problem, because I think a lot of, at least the culture in the US is that this is the onus on parents and not on companies or on the community. And that's just not true. I mean, the entire everything is linked together. There isn't like one person that's responsible. This is just the way that the world works. I mean, you can't really stop it in just one aspect or control it from one aspect.

I've also noticed that Instagram, for example, because you mentioned the parents, is that Instagram just really recently reinstalled parental control. Even for teenagers, it's not fixed. So like if for minors, they can't go on social media, at least TikTok, even the Bandits or prohibit it, but in certain cases. But an Instagram, what they did is they they added new tools so that parents can help their teenagers to schedule time to clear boundaries, to perhaps even, you know, look at the type of topics that are prompted to these teenagers. So it's coming to some changes, but it's all very small right now. Right. Well, what do you think?

I've also noticed that Instagram, for example, because you mentioned the parents, is that Instagram just really recently reinstalled parental control. Even for teenagers, it's not fixed. So like if for minors, they can't go on social media, at least TikTok, even the Bandits or prohibit it, but in certain cases. But an Instagram, what they did is they they added new tools so that parents can help their teenagers to schedule time to clear boundaries, to perhaps even, you know, look at the type of topics that are prompted to these teenagers. So it's coming to some changes, but it's all very small right now. Right. Well, what do you think?

I think it's an incredible challenge for parents, but I think it's also I don't think protecting children is going to be the solution. I think making resilient children, you know, having them, having parents who help them look at the tsunami of things that are presented to them and helping them navigate that, you know, and sticking being alongside your children and discussing how that works, I think is the way forward, that it requires new skills from parents. Right. But I think scary parents make scary children, right? I remember when I went to the playground with my daughter when she was young, I was standing next to her and I said, you know what? This is kind of a safe environment for her to better head just in the sand. I think she'll be fine and she'll learn. So just being too close to your children, because once they leave, they leave the house. They have all all that environment to deal with. And I think if you help them navigate that environment, they'll be okay. So I think I believe more in resilience than in protection. And I think that requires really, really interesting skills. So the overregulating, I think we're underestimating the power of that environment and the opportunities they have to interact with it. So I think the real opportunity is to create resilient children, knowing how giving them the tools to navigate that and giving them the compass to see what is okay and what is not okay. And then secondly, doing that also with their environment, Right. And the kids they hang out with and creating a safe place for them to come home and discuss that. So I think the over protection, I think is not feasible. The guidance and the limiting is really not feasible. It's like saying, you know, you can't have sugar at home and then they go to school, right? And they get it from their friends and things like that. So I believe in resilience, not so much in protection.

I think it's an incredible challenge for parents, but I think it's also I don't think protecting children is going to be the solution. I think making resilient children, you know, having them, having parents who help them look at the tsunami of things that are presented to them and helping them navigate that, you know, and sticking being alongside your children and discussing how that works, I think is the way forward, that it requires new skills from parents. Right. But I think scary parents make scary children, right? I remember when I went to the playground with my daughter when she was young, I was standing next to her and I said, you know what? This is kind of a safe environment for her to better head just in the sand. I think she'll be fine and she'll learn. So just being too close to your children, because once they leave, they leave the house. They have all all that environment to deal with. And I think if you help them navigate that environment, they'll be okay. So I think I believe more in resilience than in protection. And I think that requires really, really interesting skills. So the overregulating, I think we're underestimating the power of that environment and the opportunities they have to interact with it. So I think the real opportunity is to create resilient children, knowing how giving them the tools to navigate that and giving them the compass to see what is okay and what is not okay. And then secondly, doing that also with their environment, Right. And the kids they hang out with and creating a safe place for them to come home and discuss that. So I think the over protection, I think is not feasible. The guidance and the limiting is really not feasible. It's like saying, you know, you can't have sugar at home and then they go to school, right? And they get it from their friends and things like that. So I believe in resilience, not so much in protection.

But I have a follow up question to that because I know what you mean by that. And that makes sense, right? And you also can't control everything, but a lot of these apps are designed. To overcome most of the human ways that we have to control some of the things right in our brain. Right. That reward center to keep checking it. You know, just like some people scroll mindlessly for hours at times. So resilient or not, there are other things at play here that make this much more difficult to pull yourself out of. And so no matter how resilient we can be, there are just the way that human nature works that makes some of this hard to do. So not really, I guess, a question, but it's a point that, you know, there has to be some regulations around it as well because it's just not set up that way.

But I have a follow up question to that because I know what you mean by that. And that makes sense, right? And you also can't control everything, but a lot of these apps are designed. To overcome most of the human ways that we have to control some of the things right in our brain. Right. That reward center to keep checking it. You know, just like some people scroll mindlessly for hours at times. So resilient or not, there are other things at play here that make this much more difficult to pull yourself out of. And so no matter how resilient we can be, there are just the way that human nature works that makes some of this hard to do. So not really, I guess, a question, but it's a point that, you know, there has to be some regulations around it as well because it's just not set up that way.

It is an incredible force to be reckoned with. But I also think, you know, for instance, my partner's child love sugar and sometimes he just lets her have his have her way and then she's sick. And it's the same with that. If you want to scroll the entire evening, scroll the entire evening, but I'll be there next to your bed to wake you up at six. Right. And you do that once, twice, three times, four times. And then you just make it hard because everything else stays the same. So, yes, I do agree with you. I did say, you know, if it's if it's incredible violence or anything else, you know, and they are engineered to just talk to your brain. Right. It is really, really clever. But that's where the challenge lies, I think. Right. So I think this is worth an entire podcast, maybe with a child psychologist or anything else because it's so important. It's about parenting. And then last but not least, can we serve as an example? Because often it's, you know, you should, you should and it's too much. And if we if we would count how long we spend our you know, my parents never explained me things. They showed me by their behavior, by who they were. We also overestimate telling children things rather than showing them. My parents never said with me and say, this is lesson one of being a child. No, they just were who they were. And then they inspired me by by behavior. So I think that's also on us as adults, right? At dinner. Are you sitting there with your phone or aren't you? Right. And you I think there's also a lot of hypocrisy where once again, we as parents want a convenient solution to ask someone else to do it for us. Right. Give us a guide, tell us how we should do it. Just be it and they'll know. So yeah, it's a challenge for parents mostly. And then, yeah, I've made my point.

It is an incredible force to be reckoned with. But I also think, you know, for instance, my partner's child love sugar and sometimes he just lets her have his have her way and then she's sick. And it's the same with that. If you want to scroll the entire evening, scroll the entire evening, but I'll be there next to your bed to wake you up at six. Right. And you do that once, twice, three times, four times. And then you just make it hard because everything else stays the same. So, yes, I do agree with you. I did say, you know, if it's if it's incredible violence or anything else, you know, and they are engineered to just talk to your brain. Right. It is really, really clever. But that's where the challenge lies, I think. Right. So I think this is worth an entire podcast, maybe with a child psychologist or anything else because it's so important. It's about parenting. And then last but not least, can we serve as an example? Because often it's, you know, you should, you should and it's too much. And if we if we would count how long we spend our you know, my parents never explained me things. They showed me by their behavior, by who they were. We also overestimate telling children things rather than showing them. My parents never said with me and say, this is lesson one of being a child. No, they just were who they were. And then they inspired me by by behavior. So I think that's also on us as adults, right? At dinner. Are you sitting there with your phone or aren't you? Right. And you I think there's also a lot of hypocrisy where once again, we as parents want a convenient solution to ask someone else to do it for us. Right. Give us a guide, tell us how we should do it. Just be it and they'll know. So yeah, it's a challenge for parents mostly. And then, yeah, I've made my point.

I think I fully agree. I fully agree. I mean, I remember when when I say explain to my son you shouldn't watch the screen that long because it's a blue light and etcetera, etcetera. And he looks at me, it's like you're spending like eight, ten hours a day watching your computer screen. Isn't that the same? And he said, And then.