Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always for tuning in. This is part two of our strange dive into a Tureen of Turtle Soup history. What's a tureen? A tarin is like a thing where you hold soup, right, I didn't know that. It's like like a gravy boat. Yeah, I guess it's like a super gravy boat. So like in Secret of the Ooze, you know, when the animals get accelerated by the mutagen. Maybe a tarin is like a gravy boat with like a mutagen powered gravy boat. If you look up to read their fancy Oh my god, but you're right. It's like a leveled up gravy boat, or like a casserole or something. Also seemingly a requirement is for it to be ornately decorated with flowers and leaves and decorative handles. Well, anyway, we digress. Here's the episode. Recipes for the fake or mock turtle soup appear right around the time that real turtle soup recipes appear so interesting because like, yeah, you're right, I mean, like you said, uh, it was mock turtle soup that was served Abraham Lincoln's first inauguration because the times were a little tighter and uh, you know, turtles were not as easy to come back. I don't know that doesn't make sense in terms of like the scarcity of the actual turtles, but they were expensive and it was just much more austere times. Um, but okay, yeah, mock turtle soup had already become already a British classic. Hines, Like we said at the earlier in the show, when when something really starts to break through, uh, in the zeit guys, in terms of culinary stuff, it ends up in mass produced cookbooks, and Hindes was one of the big ones. Um. It was in their cookbook and then they eventually even canned it and made a version that was like mass marketed. And even if it was something that you know, more people could have access to, it didn't mean that it was something that your average home chef could just whip up because some part some of the stuff is like literal butchery, you know, where you really have to know what you're doing. Uh. Some of the process involved dressing a calf's head, which started with opening the skull no, no, no, small task, uh, and extracting the brains and then the face meat and the tongue, and then the meat has to be boiled before letting it stand overnight. So this is really quite disgusting to do, but it was hugely popular. This whole idea of boiling a calf's head seemed for some reason to be really a pe length. It was considered high end, even though it was essentially trash meat, kind of like the way Edward Edward Burnet has made bacon popular amongst the plebs. Interesting point. Yes, also shout out to Fergus Henderson, the luminary behind one of my favorite restaurants, St. John in London. Fergus, if you're hearing this, you'll love the following part. Mock turtle soup took the world by storm. And really, when we talk about mock turtle soup, we're talking about calves head soup. We're talking about a name change, right, We're talking about branding, because when people started making mock turtle soup, what they're doing is they're reproducing that rendering of fat, the green fat of the turtle's body versus the fat of the head of this calf. There's a long tradition of sheep or cow head soup. We have to remember, even though it might be cheaper than a gigantic turtle, a calves head is still kind of high end, you know what I mean, you're buying the whole head. When's the last time you walked into a supermarket and said, I'll buy the whole head. Yeah. No, that's not something I would ever hope to find myself doing. But I see the I see the logic. Even though it is typically the part that gets thrown away, it does feel like a big to do, you know, when you're getting the entire head, brains and all um. You know, it's all on how you sell it. It's all on how you spin it and when it starts ending up on menus at places like the Waldorf Astoria or the Plaza Hotel, the St. Regis Hotel, even in the White House is seven official cookbook. And that's when you start to see the more like kind of fancy um spice blend and and seasoning with sherry, cayenne, pepper, lemon, sugar, salt and mace um. And that is kind of what I believe is considered the classic recipe for both turtle and mock turtle soup in terms of like the bass seasonings. And it's so interesting because you know, what essentially is just a totally different soup unto itself, was created, you know, not to trick people, right like not, it wasn't trying to mislead people. It was called mock turtle soup. But it was just like such a it had such a place in people's hearts and minds, this turtle soup that it just really sort of took hold in and of itself. Um. And maybe where when even when turtle soup fell out of fashion, mock turtle soup became more popular then the original turtle soup to the point where Lewis Carroll you'll probably remember in his eighteen sixty five Alice in Wonderland had a character called the mock Turtle. Um. And Alice says in the the story, I don't even know what a mock turtle is, and they're there in kind of lies the joke because aside from the boiled calf's head, I think that's sort of the point, isn't you don't really know what's in mock turtle soup? What is a mock turtle is the thing mock turtle soup is made from. Uh. Lewis Carroll also, by the way, very creepy dude, A very very creepy guy. I'm sure that many of our listeners today are aware of this. Yeah, you're right, though, mock turtle soup became its own sort of acknowledged thing that had very little to do with actual turtles. I know you guys have not eaten turtle or mock turtle, maybe yourself, but I have. I have eaten both. Actually, I guess technically I've eaten multiple things that will qualify as mock turtle soup. But I've eaten actual turtles as well. Uh. I would still do it if it were not for their endangered status. Well, Ben, does it taste? Is it as advertised in the lore? It does? It tastes like a combination of shrimp, pork, veal, beef, and chicken all rolled into one. I think it depends on how you cook it, man. Uh. Also, why soup? Why soup? And why not say freaking sea of filet, etcetera. It's because this was a way to culturally frame the consumption of awful O F F A L all that stuff that you usually don't see on a restaurant menu, right, yeah, and that's because in the forties, you know, uh, it was, it was, it sort of mattered. It was almost like a national campaign to try to convince regular folks, you know, civilians to eat all those leftover bits, because the you know, the tastier bits, the chops and the steaks and all the cuts people are used to seeing. We're being shipped overseas to feed soldiers during the war um and they were left with a surplus. You know, we as a country, left with a surplus of hearts and kidneys and brains that were you know, they are ultimately sources of protein, so it seems a shame to waste them. So you're left with the situation, and how do I package this up so that people can stomach it? Literally? Right? How do we make it seem fancy to eat these things that are ordinarily treated as throw away cuts? How do we persuade people two enjoy this? Right? How do we make it acceptable and bonus points or stretch goal they would call it. How do we make it aspirational? With marketing? There is the shadow of exactly and so instead of calling it awful, or trash meat or gutty parts. They coined the term. It was actually Margaret Mead, this cultural anthropologist who was working with the Department of Defense with some food sciencests, some homemack experts, and they created this marketing campaign around this awful the gutty bits, uh, And they coined the term. And I think this is pure genius. Variety meets. I think it's pretty good. I think it's I think it's seven point three out of ted. It's like the same reasoning with Halloween candy, with the little candies they call fund size. I speak for every childhood trick or treater when I say, how how can something be fun when there's less of it? So anyway, yes, variety meets, they're doing their best. Uh. And this is a product of austerity during World War two. But after World War two ends, the US encounters this huge economic boom. It's one of the few countries that didn't have its infrastructure bombed into ruins. So people in the US just go back to steaks and burgers and they keep skipping you know this sweetbreads, the pancreas, the trotters, the food, the awfuls, the you know, the the Rocky Mountain oysters were probably still a thing because people will always be weird. But but one there was one exception to this rule was the calf's head in mock turtle soup. The real name for this soup should have been cow head soup calf's head soup, but that also didn't last forever. Mock turtle soup was popular till about the late nineteen fifties. By the nineteen sixties, it was considered increasingly anachronistic. It was fancy anachronistic, like a double breasted uh soup coat or a monocle, yeah, or like aspect or you know, cooking make savory gelatins. For example, Um, there's a restaurant in Atlanta. It's actually, I think in danger of closing. It's called the Colonnade. It's like an old meat and three type, you know, super old school restaurant, and they have aspect on the menu still because it's just a hold over. Some people just don't change with the times, and that can actually be charming in small doses, but you know, uh, society can't sustain just a ton of those. There's like the few little holdouts, and in this case, the holdouts were luxury passenger liners like the s S United States and the carriage House in Fort Worth, which was a fancy French restaurant. Um. Because this is the kind of thing, like the aspect that I could see the French, you know, kind of hanging onto for a little longer. Um. But there are reasons that we can pretty easily pinpoint as to why people aren't into eating gutty parts so much anymore. It's because we don't have to, and they're kind of gross, and they seem like the parts you should leave. I like a tongue taco. I'm not gonna lie I. I've talked about my history with eating liver pudding and brains and eggs, not something I would go for on purpose these days. But I also like liver. I do like fried liver and onions. Uh So that's probably the most acceptable of what would be considered the awful. But all the rest of that stuff still available from your local butcher um, but usually more by request. Right, It's not like there's a whole keeping caste full of awful parts, right. Well, it depends on where you go in different countries. It's a different story too, sure, Yes, And the grocery stores I go to have awful of plenty. But you're right, I talked about this on stuff. They don't want you to know the soft cultural taboos of what is or is not acceptable to eat, and these are relatively arbitrary things. Why do I not see turtle soup on my menu? Ben? You might be asking yourself, you sort of a fish? Uh? Why did you all spend h two episodes talking about this turtle suit and I cannot order any of it? Well, the explanation lies in a couple of factors. First, courtesy of our friend Gabelusier, one of the answers, maybe indoor plumbing. Indoor plumbing decreased the average homestead interaction with the turtle because you're not going to creeks, you're not going into swamps, you're not going into the wild to grab your water, which means you may not be seen turtle. And then, also going back to what I said earlier about the soft cultural taboos of what is or is not to be eaten, turtles started to enter the realm of dogs and cats in that they were they were becoming somewhat anthropomorphized. You know what I mean? Well, sure, the aff formentioned teenage mutant Ninja turtles. You got your urtle, the turtle you got? What what other turtles you got? There's that turtle in the Tusti role pop commercial that everyone like, so well, yeah, it's I I you know, I've brought this before, even on this show. But I think on stuff that I want you to know, where it's like the cultural taboos around eating certain animals. I always feel like there's not a clear line in the sand with that because I know plenty of people that have pet rabbits, and rabbits are uniformly cuddly and and and sweets, even though they can be a little bity and and feral. But you know, people still eat rabbit stu, mainly at higher end restaurants, but that's still definitely on the menu. Rabbits that are bred for slaughter. Uh. Turtles, on the other hand, you know, people can still keep turtle as a pet. You can still find a traditional type of box turtle like you might have when you were a kid. But now that's across the line um after being so insanely popular. I'm just I mean, I'm fascinated by that. One thing that I thought was interesting too, is it's hard to tell the difference between a more common turtle and some of its more endangered brethren, so that's an important thing to consider as well. There's another thing that's interesting here, so post World War two, that's when we really see the decline of turtle soup as both an aspirational thing and an actual thing. On menus, we have to mention that the decline was sort of signaled or telegraphed in advance by the end of World War one, way before, way before World War two. Prohibition comes in, as every Gormands knows, one cannot have proper turtle soup without cherry, and if you can't have sherry, then you can't have turtle soup. So it's suffered under a prohibition. And we know from previous episodes people weren't really following the laws of prohibition. But when there was no fortified wine that was easily available, obviously people weren't making the turtle soup the way they like to make the turtle soup. And then post World War two, the decline is accelerated because you got convenience foods. It's the nuclear America. We've got frozen TV dinners, we've got better can soup. We've got mixes. You don't have to spend hours and hours every day cooking over a smelly pot. You no longer have to find a huge turtle, a casey verified size of a large dog turtle and hang it from his back fence. You know, it never occurred to me that prohibition would have really done a number on flavoring and sauces, because there would be no cooking wines, no liquors for making sauces, which is really imported. And I mean a little white wine uh in like a shrimp scampi or something like that. I mean that you really needed. And the irony is the alcohol burns off. I guess you know. Johnny Law just couldn't trust Americans to just cook with their sherry and not take a little sip. They had to take an all or nothing approach. Thank god we got through that. Um. But yeah, this was in fact a nail in the coffin for turtle soup. No sherry. You don't have the soup, but you're used to. Um, But you're right, Ben, you know. Lumped in with that, as we heard from the Hinds Company, there were canned versions of mock turtle soup. It did kind of get it's its moment brief as it was as as a convenient food, but it just didn't stick. Campbell's uh did not continue to make their version of mock turtle soup. It was described as having a tempting, distinctive taste so prized by the epicure at the time. Um and that was before nineteen sixty. But it didn't have this making power that like you know, your cream of mushroom and chicken noodle would have had. Though it did have its uh it's it's devotees, one of which was Andy Warhol, campbell soup can enthusiast and apparently big fan of of mock turtle soup. He even said he likes to shop for discontinued flavors. If you ever run across mock turtle, save it for me. It used to be my favorite, but I must have been the only one because they discontinued it. Ridiculous histories, you're saying right now, obviously this sounds amazing. Where is my turtle soup? Where is my mock turtle calves head soup? Well, we have an answer for you, and that answer is Cincinnati. The love of mock turtle soup continues in the modern day. I'm sorry to sound a little rudd surtling about that, but it's true. This is a solved mystery. There is a twilight zone turtle soup part of the US. German immigrants traveled to Cincinnati in the eighteen hundreds, and according to Sherry Brinkman, who wrote a fantastic book Cincinnati in Soup or a fantastic series of cookbooks, I should say, uh, the mock turtle movement continues in Cincinnati. She says, today's Cincinnati chefs make the dish with ground beef rather than awful, but it's just as popular as ever. It's still made by many local restaurants and at church festivals. You can also order canned mock turtle soup from a company called Worthmore. I The thing is, let me be honest with you, guys. The thing is they canned version includes the hard boiled eggs. I'm just so skeptical canned hard boiled eggs. Like God, I want to believe, you know, I feel very David Tocovany about this, very fox molder. I want to believe, but I'm skeptic. I'm fine with not believing in that one canned hard boil like like, the idea of pickled eggs just makes me want to puke. I don't don't care for it. I like a hard boiling my own egg. I also don't like store bought hard boiled eggs. Something about that. I just need it to be, you know, a me thing. I will say tho as far as an hard boiled egg in a soup or a soft ball egg in a soup, like you know, those ramen eggs are really tasty and they're sort of like marinated and soy and marrin and they have a really nice kind of mommy to them and of themselves. But they're a nice little added seasoning for a for a bowl of ramen. Yeah, I got it. I prefer if I'm if I'm boiling egg, I prefer to be the boiler. You know. Same? Yeah, I like that vertical integration, uh without me laying the egg. That's the threshold. But but well, Casey, what do you think? What do you think you? Uh? Would you buy hard boiled eggs? And again no, I can't say I would, ben Casy on the case, how about mock turtle soup? Casey would you try that, or or regular turtle soup. I would I would do the mock turtle soup. I don't think I could bring myself to do the regular turtle soup. You're okay with boiled calves head, but not turtle meat. You know, people are strange, strange. So here's the thing. Real turtle soup is increasingly difficult to get these days because, as we've mentioned earlier, these animals are endangered or they may be rare, so the idea of processing them for soup takes an understandable back seat. You can find and a couple of corners of the internet you can find, uh, people selling canned turtle actual turtle soup, not mock turtle. But it's gonna be pretty old. At this point there there aren't fresh canned varieties, meaning that if you are eating at a fancy restaurant and you're eating actual turtle soup, it is uh, it is probably fresh made, one would hope. Otherwise, don't tip. I'm kidding, always tip, always tip minimum be a good person. Indeed, and I think this concludes are for a into the weird and wonderful, questionably world of of turtles as cooking ingredients. I've enjoyed it. It's not been the most appetizing conversation we've had in recent memory. But um, I think I'm gonna go and make some non turtle soup after we get done here for for lunch, just to kind of cleanse my palace which has sort of a greasy patina on it now. Um, but huge thanks to to you, Ben for for having that, for joining me on this journey and being here, you know, but huge thanks to you Ben for h for joining me on this journey. Thanks to you as well, Noel. Huge thanks to super producer Casey pet Grip, Alex Williams who composed this amazing soundtrack, and of course Christopher Hasiotis. Thanks to researcher extraordinary Gabe Bluisier, Jonathan's trickling the Quister and don't forget. If you would like to find us or our show, we are available on social media channels of note to the Twitter, the Pinterest, no not the pintrest, never the pintress um bringing that one back, uh, and the Instagram. You can find us as a show or as individuals. I am on Instagram at how Now Noel Brown. You can find me on Twitter, app and Bulling hs W and you can find me on Instagram at Ben Bullen or at number one Leafblower Fan on Pinterest in my Space. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always for tuning in. This is part two of our strange dive into a Tureen of Turtle Soup history. What's a tureen? A tarin is like a thing where you hold soup, right, I didn't know that. It's like like a gravy boat. Yeah, I guess it's like a super gravy boat. So like in Secret of the Ooze, you know, when the animals get accelerated by the mutagen. Maybe a tarin is like a gravy boat with like a mutagen powered gravy boat. If you look up to read their fancy Oh my god, but you're right. It's like a leveled up gravy boat, or like a casserole or something. Also seemingly a requirement is for it to be ornately decorated with flowers and leaves and decorative handles. Well, anyway, we digress. Here's the episode. Recipes for the fake or mock turtle soup appear right around the time that real turtle soup recipes appear so interesting because like, yeah, you're right, I mean, like you said, uh, it was mock turtle soup that was served Abraham Lincoln's first inauguration because the times were a little tighter and uh, you know, turtles were not as easy to come back. I don't know that doesn't make sense in terms of like the scarcity of the actual turtles, but they were expensive and it was just much more austere times. Um, but okay, yeah, mock turtle soup had already become already a British classic. Hines, Like we said at the earlier in the show, when when something really starts to break through, uh, in the zeit guys, in terms of culinary stuff, it ends up in mass produced cookbooks, and Hindes was one of the big ones. Um. It was in their cookbook and then they eventually even canned it and made a version that was like mass marketed. And even if it was something that you know, more people could have access to, it didn't mean that it was something that your average home chef could just whip up because some part some of the stuff is like literal butchery, you know, where you really have to know what you're doing. Uh. Some of the process involved dressing a calf's head, which started with opening the skull no, no, no, small task, uh, and extracting the brains and then the face meat and the tongue, and then the meat has to be boiled before letting it stand overnight. So this is really quite disgusting to do, but it was hugely popular. This whole idea of boiling a calf's head seemed for some reason to be really a pe length. It was considered high end, even though it was essentially trash meat, kind of like the way Edward Edward Burnet has made bacon popular amongst the plebs. Interesting point. Yes, also shout out to Fergus Henderson, the luminary behind one of my favorite restaurants, St. John in London. Fergus, if you're hearing this, you'll love the following part. Mock turtle soup took the world by storm. And really, when we talk about mock turtle soup, we're talking about calves head soup. We're talking about a name change, right, We're talking about branding, because when people started making mock turtle soup, what they're doing is they're reproducing that rendering of fat, the green fat of the turtle's body versus the fat of the head of this calf. There's a long tradition of sheep or cow head soup. We have to remember, even though it might be cheaper than a gigantic turtle, a calves head is still kind of high end, you know what I mean, you're buying the whole head. When's the last time you walked into a supermarket and said, I'll buy the whole head. Yeah. No, that's not something I would ever hope to find myself doing. But I see the I see the logic. Even though it is typically the part that gets thrown away, it does feel like a big to do, you know, when you're getting the entire head, brains and all um. You know, it's all on how you sell it. It's all on how you spin it and when it starts ending up on menus at places like the Waldorf Astoria or the Plaza Hotel, the St. Regis Hotel, even in the White House is seven official cookbook. And that's when you start to see the more like kind of fancy um spice blend and and seasoning with sherry, cayenne, pepper, lemon, sugar, salt and mace um. And that is kind of what I believe is considered the classic recipe for both turtle and mock turtle soup in terms of like the bass seasonings. And it's so interesting because you know, what essentially is just a totally different soup unto itself, was created, you know, not to trick people, right like not, it wasn't trying to mislead people. It was called mock turtle soup. But it was just like such a it had such a place in people's hearts and minds, this turtle soup that it just really sort of took hold in and of itself. Um. And maybe where when even when turtle soup fell out of fashion, mock turtle soup became more popular then the original turtle soup to the point where Lewis Carroll you'll probably remember in his eighteen sixty five Alice in Wonderland had a character called the mock Turtle. Um. And Alice says in the the story, I don't even know what a mock turtle is, and they're there in kind of lies the joke because aside from the boiled calf's head, I think that's sort of the point, isn't you don't really know what's in mock turtle soup? What is a mock turtle is the thing mock turtle soup is made from. Uh. Lewis Carroll also, by the way, very creepy dude, A very very creepy guy. I'm sure that many of our listeners today are aware of this. Yeah, you're right, though, mock turtle soup became its own sort of acknowledged thing that had very little to do with actual turtles. I know you guys have not eaten turtle or mock turtle, maybe yourself, but I have. I have eaten both. Actually, I guess technically I've eaten multiple things that will qualify as mock turtle soup. But I've eaten actual turtles as well. Uh. I would still do it if it were not for their endangered status. Well, Ben, does it taste? Is it as advertised in the lore? It does? It tastes like a combination of shrimp, pork, veal, beef, and chicken all rolled into one. I think it depends on how you cook it, man. Uh. Also, why soup? Why soup? And why not say freaking sea of filet, etcetera. It's because this was a way to culturally frame the consumption of awful O F F A L all that stuff that you usually don't see on a restaurant menu, right, yeah, and that's because in the forties, you know, uh, it was, it was, it sort of mattered. It was almost like a national campaign to try to convince regular folks, you know, civilians to eat all those leftover bits, because the you know, the tastier bits, the chops and the steaks and all the cuts people are used to seeing. We're being shipped overseas to feed soldiers during the war um and they were left with a surplus. You know, we as a country, left with a surplus of hearts and kidneys and brains that were you know, they are ultimately sources of protein, so it seems a shame to waste them. So you're left with the situation, and how do I package this up so that people can stomach it? Literally? Right? How do we make it seem fancy to eat these things that are ordinarily treated as throw away cuts? How do we persuade people two enjoy this? Right? How do we make it acceptable and bonus points or stretch goal they would call it. How do we make it aspirational? With marketing? There is the shadow of exactly and so instead of calling it awful, or trash meat or gutty parts. They coined the term. It was actually Margaret Mead, this cultural anthropologist who was working with the Department of Defense with some food sciencests, some homemack experts, and they created this marketing campaign around this awful the gutty bits, uh, And they coined the term. And I think this is pure genius. Variety meets. I think it's pretty good. I think it's I think it's seven point three out of ted. It's like the same reasoning with Halloween candy, with the little candies they call fund size. I speak for every childhood trick or treater when I say, how how can something be fun when there's less of it? So anyway, yes, variety meets, they're doing their best. Uh. And this is a product of austerity during World War two. But after World War two ends, the US encounters this huge economic boom. It's one of the few countries that didn't have its infrastructure bombed into ruins. So people in the US just go back to steaks and burgers and they keep skipping you know this sweetbreads, the pancreas, the trotters, the food, the awfuls, the you know, the the Rocky Mountain oysters were probably still a thing because people will always be weird. But but one there was one exception to this rule was the calf's head in mock turtle soup. The real name for this soup should have been cow head soup calf's head soup, but that also didn't last forever. Mock turtle soup was popular till about the late nineteen fifties. By the nineteen sixties, it was considered increasingly anachronistic. It was fancy anachronistic, like a double breasted uh soup coat or a monocle, yeah, or like aspect or you know, cooking make savory gelatins. For example, Um, there's a restaurant in Atlanta. It's actually, I think in danger of closing. It's called the Colonnade. It's like an old meat and three type, you know, super old school restaurant, and they have aspect on the menu still because it's just a hold over. Some people just don't change with the times, and that can actually be charming in small doses, but you know, uh, society can't sustain just a ton of those. There's like the few little holdouts, and in this case, the holdouts were luxury passenger liners like the s S United States and the carriage House in Fort Worth, which was a fancy French restaurant. Um. Because this is the kind of thing, like the aspect that I could see the French, you know, kind of hanging onto for a little longer. Um. But there are reasons that we can pretty easily pinpoint as to why people aren't into eating gutty parts so much anymore. It's because we don't have to, and they're kind of gross, and they seem like the parts you should leave. I like a tongue taco. I'm not gonna lie I. I've talked about my history with eating liver pudding and brains and eggs, not something I would go for on purpose these days. But I also like liver. I do like fried liver and onions. Uh So that's probably the most acceptable of what would be considered the awful. But all the rest of that stuff still available from your local butcher um, but usually more by request. Right, It's not like there's a whole keeping caste full of awful parts, right. Well, it depends on where you go in different countries. It's a different story too, sure, Yes, And the grocery stores I go to have awful of plenty. But you're right, I talked about this on stuff. They don't want you to know the soft cultural taboos of what is or is not acceptable to eat, and these are relatively arbitrary things. Why do I not see turtle soup on my menu? Ben? You might be asking yourself, you sort of a fish? Uh? Why did you all spend h two episodes talking about this turtle suit and I cannot order any of it? Well, the explanation lies in a couple of factors. First, courtesy of our friend Gabelusier, one of the answers, maybe indoor plumbing. Indoor plumbing decreased the average homestead interaction with the turtle because you're not going to creeks, you're not going into swamps, you're not going into the wild to grab your water, which means you may not be seen turtle. And then, also going back to what I said earlier about the soft cultural taboos of what is or is not to be eaten, turtles started to enter the realm of dogs and cats in that they were they were becoming somewhat anthropomorphized. You know what I mean? Well, sure, the aff formentioned teenage mutant Ninja turtles. You got your urtle, the turtle you got? What what other turtles you got? There's that turtle in the Tusti role pop commercial that everyone like, so well, yeah, it's I I you know, I've brought this before, even on this show. But I think on stuff that I want you to know, where it's like the cultural taboos around eating certain animals. I always feel like there's not a clear line in the sand with that because I know plenty of people that have pet rabbits, and rabbits are uniformly cuddly and and and sweets, even though they can be a little bity and and feral. But you know, people still eat rabbit stu, mainly at higher end restaurants, but that's still definitely on the menu. Rabbits that are bred for slaughter. Uh. Turtles, on the other hand, you know, people can still keep turtle as a pet. You can still find a traditional type of box turtle like you might have when you were a kid. But now that's across the line um after being so insanely popular. I'm just I mean, I'm fascinated by that. One thing that I thought was interesting too, is it's hard to tell the difference between a more common turtle and some of its more endangered brethren, so that's an important thing to consider as well. There's another thing that's interesting here, so post World War two, that's when we really see the decline of turtle soup as both an aspirational thing and an actual thing. On menus, we have to mention that the decline was sort of signaled or telegraphed in advance by the end of World War one, way before, way before World War two. Prohibition comes in, as every Gormands knows, one cannot have proper turtle soup without cherry, and if you can't have sherry, then you can't have turtle soup. So it's suffered under a prohibition. And we know from previous episodes people weren't really following the laws of prohibition. But when there was no fortified wine that was easily available, obviously people weren't making the turtle soup the way they like to make the turtle soup. And then post World War two, the decline is accelerated because you got convenience foods. It's the nuclear America. We've got frozen TV dinners, we've got better can soup. We've got mixes. You don't have to spend hours and hours every day cooking over a smelly pot. You no longer have to find a huge turtle, a casey verified size of a large dog turtle and hang it from his back fence. You know, it never occurred to me that prohibition would have really done a number on flavoring and sauces, because there would be no cooking wines, no liquors for making sauces, which is really imported. And I mean a little white wine uh in like a shrimp scampi or something like that. I mean that you really needed. And the irony is the alcohol burns off. I guess you know. Johnny Law just couldn't trust Americans to just cook with their sherry and not take a little sip. They had to take an all or nothing approach. Thank god we got through that. Um. But yeah, this was in fact a nail in the coffin for turtle soup. No sherry. You don't have the soup, but you're used to. Um, But you're right, Ben, you know. Lumped in with that, as we heard from the Hinds Company, there were canned versions of mock turtle soup. It did kind of get it's its moment brief as it was as as a convenient food, but it just didn't stick. Campbell's uh did not continue to make their version of mock turtle soup. It was described as having a tempting, distinctive taste so prized by the epicure at the time. Um and that was before nineteen sixty. But it didn't have this making power that like you know, your cream of mushroom and chicken noodle would have had. Though it did have its uh it's it's devotees, one of which was Andy Warhol, campbell soup can enthusiast and apparently big fan of of mock turtle soup. He even said he likes to shop for discontinued flavors. If you ever run across mock turtle, save it for me. It used to be my favorite, but I must have been the only one because they discontinued it. Ridiculous histories, you're saying right now, obviously this sounds amazing. Where is my turtle soup? Where is my mock turtle calves head soup? Well, we have an answer for you, and that answer is Cincinnati. The love of mock turtle soup continues in the modern day. I'm sorry to sound a little rudd surtling about that, but it's true. This is a solved mystery. There is a twilight zone turtle soup part of the US. German immigrants traveled to Cincinnati in the eighteen hundreds, and according to Sherry Brinkman, who wrote a fantastic book Cincinnati in Soup or a fantastic series of cookbooks, I should say, uh, the mock turtle movement continues in Cincinnati. She says, today's Cincinnati chefs make the dish with ground beef rather than awful, but it's just as popular as ever. It's still made by many local restaurants and at church festivals. You can also order canned mock turtle soup from a company called Worthmore. I The thing is, let me be honest with you, guys. The thing is they canned version includes the hard boiled eggs. I'm just so skeptical canned hard boiled eggs. Like God, I want to believe, you know, I feel very David Tocovany about this, very fox molder. I want to believe, but I'm skeptic. I'm fine with not believing in that one canned hard boil like like, the idea of pickled eggs just makes me want to puke. I don't don't care for it. I like a hard boiling my own egg. I also don't like store bought hard boiled eggs. Something about that. I just need it to be, you know, a me thing. I will say tho as far as an hard boiled egg in a soup or a soft ball egg in a soup, like you know, those ramen eggs are really tasty and they're sort of like marinated and soy and marrin and they have a really nice kind of mommy to them and of themselves. But they're a nice little added seasoning for a for a bowl of ramen. Yeah, I got it. I prefer if I'm if I'm boiling egg, I prefer to be the boiler. You know. Same? Yeah, I like that vertical integration, uh without me laying the egg. That's the threshold. But but well, Casey, what do you think? What do you think you? Uh? Would you buy hard boiled eggs? And again no, I can't say I would, ben Casy on the case, how about mock turtle soup? Casey would you try that, or or regular turtle soup. I would I would do the mock turtle soup. I don't think I could bring myself to do the regular turtle soup. You're okay with boiled calves head, but not turtle meat. You know, people are strange, strange. So here's the thing. Real turtle soup is increasingly difficult to get these days because, as we've mentioned earlier, these animals are endangered or they may be rare, so the idea of processing them for soup takes an understandable back seat. You can find and a couple of corners of the internet you can find, uh, people selling canned turtle actual turtle soup, not mock turtle. But it's gonna be pretty old. At this point there there aren't fresh canned varieties, meaning that if you are eating at a fancy restaurant and you're eating actual turtle soup, it is uh, it is probably fresh made, one would hope. Otherwise, don't tip. I'm kidding, always tip, always tip minimum be a good person. Indeed, and I think this concludes are for a into the weird and wonderful, questionably world of of turtles as cooking ingredients. I've enjoyed it. It's not been the most appetizing conversation we've had in recent memory. But um, I think I'm gonna go and make some non turtle soup after we get done here for for lunch, just to kind of cleanse my palace which has sort of a greasy patina on it now. Um, but huge thanks to to you, Ben for for having that, for joining me on this journey and being here, you know, but huge thanks to you Ben for h for joining me on this journey. Thanks to you as well, Noel. Huge thanks to super producer Casey pet Grip, Alex Williams who composed this amazing soundtrack, and of course Christopher Hasiotis. Thanks to researcher extraordinary Gabe Bluisier, Jonathan's trickling the Quister and don't forget. If you would like to find us or our show, we are available on social media channels of note to the Twitter, the Pinterest, no not the pintrest, never the pintress um bringing that one back, uh, and the Instagram. You can find us as a show or as individuals. I am on Instagram at how Now Noel Brown. You can find me on Twitter, app and Bulling hs W and you can find me on Instagram at Ben Bullen or at number one Leafblower Fan on Pinterest in my Space. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.