Pushkin.

Pushkin.

I've had such a exceptionally curated career. Every movie I've ever written since eighteen has been greenlit to be made into a movie. You've seen everything I've written, you know, except for this one that we're going to talk about.

I've had such a exceptionally curated career. Every movie I've ever written since eighteen has been greenlit to be made into a movie. You've seen everything I've written, you know, except for this one that we're going to talk about.

So it's interesting, always a twist. Yeah, Welcome back to Development Hell, our mini series about the lost scripts of Hollywood. Today, I'm talking with m Night Shyamalan, one of the best known filmmakers of the past generation suspense fillers and supernatural psychodrama. You know whose movies I'm sure, Unbreakable, the Sixth Sense, Split Glass, something like fifteen films in the last thirty years, which collectively have grossed billions of dollars. M Night Shamalan's stories have haunted a lot of people over the years. This episode is about the story that haunted m Night Shauma. We've talked a lot so far in a series about movies that never got made because there was something wrong with the story, or because someone on the outside had a problem with the script. This episode is about none of those things. There is nothing at all wrong with the story Shyamalan has never told, and maybe that's why he never told.

So it's interesting, always a twist. Yeah, Welcome back to Development Hell, our mini series about the lost scripts of Hollywood. Today, I'm talking with m Night Shyamalan, one of the best known filmmakers of the past generation suspense fillers and supernatural psychodrama. You know whose movies I'm sure, Unbreakable, the Sixth Sense, Split Glass, something like fifteen films in the last thirty years, which collectively have grossed billions of dollars. M Night Shamalan's stories have haunted a lot of people over the years. This episode is about the story that haunted m Night Shauma. We've talked a lot so far in a series about movies that never got made because there was something wrong with the story, or because someone on the outside had a problem with the script. This episode is about none of those things. There is nothing at all wrong with the story Shyamalan has never told, and maybe that's why he never told.

There was the first real script that I felt kind of lightning bolt inspiration that came to me.

There was the first real script that I felt kind of lightning bolt inspiration that came to me.

I was twenty two and i'd just.

I was twenty two and i'd just.

Been married, just got married, and I wrote a kind of a love story, Labor of Love, and I was writing it, and I wrote it because I almost remember everywhere I wrote it, because it was such a special experience of writing. By that time, that was my third third feature that i'd written. I had made made a movie already in India.

Been married, just got married, and I wrote a kind of a love story, Labor of Love, and I was writing it, and I wrote it because I almost remember everywhere I wrote it, because it was such a special experience of writing. By that time, that was my third third feature that i'd written. I had made made a movie already in India.

Tell me, tell me this a little bit about the story. What was Labor of Love about?

Tell me, tell me this a little bit about the story. What was Labor of Love about?

You know?

You know?

Labor of Love is essentially a story about an older couple and the wife saying, hey, it's an anniversary and he forgets and all of this stuff and they've been together a long time, and she's just like, you know, essentially expresses I do all these little things for you our whole life, and you don't. And I'm not sure what you want from you know, I'm not sure you love me. You know, I'm not one hundred percent sure. And that's not a great feeling, you know. And he's baffled, right as all guys are just baffled at this, And.

Labor of Love is essentially a story about an older couple and the wife saying, hey, it's an anniversary and he forgets and all of this stuff and they've been together a long time, and she's just like, you know, essentially expresses I do all these little things for you our whole life, and you don't. And I'm not sure what you want from you know, I'm not sure you love me. You know, I'm not one hundred percent sure. And that's not a great feeling, you know. And he's baffled, right as all guys are just baffled at this, And.

I mean, what do you mean? I mean, I mean what do you want me? I love you goes.

I mean, what do you mean? I mean, I mean what do you want me? I love you goes.

To work every morning? Who goes to What are you doing that for? Okay? Good, good, I get it.

To work every morning? Who goes to What are you doing that for? Okay? Good, good, I get it.

She I don't want to say too much of it because I tend to think of these things as magic. And yeah, and she she passes away unexpectedly and very tragically, and before she died she said, he said, uh, you know, what do you want me to do to prove my love to you? You want me to, you know, swim across an ocean, or climb a mountain or walk across the United States?

She I don't want to say too much of it because I tend to think of these things as magic. And yeah, and she she passes away unexpectedly and very tragically, and before she died she said, he said, uh, you know, what do you want me to do to prove my love to you? You want me to, you know, swim across an ocean, or climb a mountain or walk across the United States?

What do you want me to do?

What do you want me to do?

She's like, just walk to the store and get me something on your own, because you were thinking, you know, something small like that. Anyway, she passes away. He's an older man. He's in a you know, late sixties seventies kind of thing, out of shape, and he's so devastated he makes a crazy decision to start walking across the United States for nothing else but just to show his wife who's passed away, in case she can see. And this isn't I wrote this in nineteen ninety four, right, so no cell phones, no nothing, no internet, And he just begins this track and it's a kind of like a vision quest a little bit. He starts to think about his life and his time with his wife and from when they were kids, and he's physically in threat as he's doing this, and slowly the country starts to get to hear about this guy, and they're trying to urge him do it to get there and it's so crazy, Why are you doing this?

She's like, just walk to the store and get me something on your own, because you were thinking, you know, something small like that. Anyway, she passes away. He's an older man. He's in a you know, late sixties seventies kind of thing, out of shape, and he's so devastated he makes a crazy decision to start walking across the United States for nothing else but just to show his wife who's passed away, in case she can see. And this isn't I wrote this in nineteen ninety four, right, so no cell phones, no nothing, no internet, And he just begins this track and it's a kind of like a vision quest a little bit. He starts to think about his life and his time with his wife and from when they were kids, and he's physically in threat as he's doing this, and slowly the country starts to get to hear about this guy, and they're trying to urge him do it to get there and it's so crazy, Why are you doing this?

Why are you doing this?

Why are you doing this?

And then the country kind of gets on board with the feeling of doing something irrational to show your love for the person that.

And then the country kind of gets on board with the feeling of doing something irrational to show your love for the person that.

You care about.

You care about.

And I'm not going to tell you the ending, but it's really poignant, the idea of just doing something so the other person can hear you.

And I'm not going to tell you the ending, but it's really poignant, the idea of just doing something so the other person can hear you.

So you're twenty two, you're very much in love. You've just married your wife, who you've known for how long at that point.

So you're twenty two, you're very much in love. You've just married your wife, who you've known for how long at that point.

I met when I was eighteen, so owner for four years at that point.

I met when I was eighteen, so owner for four years at that point.

So the and in this period of love struck youth. When you are, you know, in love with your young wife, you write a story about an older couple, Yes, where the question of the man's devotion to the to his wife is in doubt. Yes, and he had In other words, I thought you were going to say I wrote this at twenty two. I was just married a mention love. It's about this young couple who embark you. You jump back, you jump forward forty years when you start looking back.

So the and in this period of love struck youth. When you are, you know, in love with your young wife, you write a story about an older couple, Yes, where the question of the man's devotion to the to his wife is in doubt. Yes, and he had In other words, I thought you were going to say I wrote this at twenty two. I was just married a mention love. It's about this young couple who embark you. You jump back, you jump forward forty years when you start looking back.

Yes, so yeah, in the period.

Yes, so yeah, in the period.

Where you are of greatest infatuation, your impulse is to go to the end of the relationship and work backwards.

Where you are of greatest infatuation, your impulse is to go to the end of the relationship and work backwards.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I think I've always been driven by familial nightmares, you know, the sanctity of the family being jeopardized. You know, later it changed into aliens and ghosts and you name it, But ultimately it's still about families and whether whether they can survive.

I mean, I think I've always been driven by familial nightmares, you know, the sanctity of the family being jeopardized. You know, later it changed into aliens and ghosts and you name it, But ultimately it's still about families and whether whether they can survive.

What is it about you at a period of young love, when you're already thinking about the kind of not the dissolution of love, but the final stage of it. You why would you jump ahead? What's it? No?

What is it about you at a period of young love, when you're already thinking about the kind of not the dissolution of love, but the final stage of it. You why would you jump ahead? What's it? No?

I guess I guess you're thinking about your life and what you wanted to be and where it could go wrong. And maybe I was thinking about what is it?

I guess I guess you're thinking about your life and what you wanted to be and where it could go wrong. And maybe I was thinking about what is it?

What is it? What do I want this to be at.

What is it? What do I want this to be at.

The end of the journey, you know, forty years from now, fifty years from now. I hope, I hope I've lived the life the right way and of course there's going to be a lot of mistakes along the way. But I don't have fears like the other people have fears in the sense of, like I knew I was going to marry the second I matter, you know, like those things. I fear getting a call that's something bad happened, you know, And that's very prevalent and still thirty years later.

The end of the journey, you know, forty years from now, fifty years from now. I hope, I hope I've lived the life the right way and of course there's going to be a lot of mistakes along the way. But I don't have fears like the other people have fears in the sense of, like I knew I was going to marry the second I matter, you know, like those things. I fear getting a call that's something bad happened, you know, And that's very prevalent and still thirty years later.

Yeah, but you're asking yourself the question of what is the most tragic outcome of young love? Is that what is what you've described is that one one party loves and the other party doesn't realize they're being loved. You put your finger on something that's like it does a deeply resonant anxiety.

Yeah, but you're asking yourself the question of what is the most tragic outcome of young love? Is that what is what you've described is that one one party loves and the other party doesn't realize they're being loved. You put your finger on something that's like it does a deeply resonant anxiety.

It is I probably fund the dynamic of me and my wife that you know, she married a dreamer, someone who's completely content to stare out in an empty room and just do that all day long and think about an imaginary world with imaginary people and feel fulfilled. And she's like, well, I'm right here, you know, what about what about the real life where you're.

It is I probably fund the dynamic of me and my wife that you know, she married a dreamer, someone who's completely content to stare out in an empty room and just do that all day long and think about an imaginary world with imaginary people and feel fulfilled. And she's like, well, I'm right here, you know, what about what about the real life where you're.

We're living, you know, And.

We're living, you know, And.

And so the struggle has been you know, I've heard all of those stories of you know, from you know, f Scott Fitzgerald to you name it. You know all our heroes and how they struggled with their personal life versus their artistry. Is it a one or the other equation? We sometimes it feels that way, and for a lot of people it feels that way. I've tried to see if they can be feed each other and it feeds the movies, the feeling of love for your wife or for your kids or you know, and what does that mean?

And so the struggle has been you know, I've heard all of those stories of you know, from you know, f Scott Fitzgerald to you name it. You know all our heroes and how they struggled with their personal life versus their artistry. Is it a one or the other equation? We sometimes it feels that way, and for a lot of people it feels that way. I've tried to see if they can be feed each other and it feeds the movies, the feeling of love for your wife or for your kids or you know, and what does that mean?

How can you imbue it?

How can you imbue it?

And you guys feel it when you see the movies and really the stories that I mean.

And you guys feel it when you see the movies and really the stories that I mean.

And the hardest thing to explain to your spouse in that instance is that to them you seem inaccessible in that dreaming. But from your perspective, I'm putting words in your mouth, but there's a certain amount of commonality between the way I approachest the way that you do. What's hard to explain is that not being inaccessible and in fact, the relationship we have with our loved one is what makes our dreaming possible.

And the hardest thing to explain to your spouse in that instance is that to them you seem inaccessible in that dreaming. But from your perspective, I'm putting words in your mouth, but there's a certain amount of commonality between the way I approachest the way that you do. What's hard to explain is that not being inaccessible and in fact, the relationship we have with our loved one is what makes our dreaming possible.

M hm.

M hm.

Right there. They're the engine of it. They're not outside of it. It's their presence and support and structure and love and whatever that permits us to wander off and in our imagination and feel find comfort and joy and all of that. I don't know, it's like that. It's a very hard thing to to explain to someone that they're that our inner lives are contingent on someone from the out on the outside.

Right there. They're the engine of it. They're not outside of it. It's their presence and support and structure and love and whatever that permits us to wander off and in our imagination and feel find comfort and joy and all of that. I don't know, it's like that. It's a very hard thing to to explain to someone that they're that our inner lives are contingent on someone from the out on the outside.

Yes, you know, So finding love and then building a career from there felt felt the right, the right building blocks, and so that movie was the beginning of that. You know, when writing this movie, Labor of Love, it was it was coming from such an interesting place, and I was writing ahead of my abilities at that point.

Yes, you know, So finding love and then building a career from there felt felt the right, the right building blocks, and so that movie was the beginning of that. You know, when writing this movie, Labor of Love, it was it was coming from such an interesting place, and I was writing ahead of my abilities at that point.

It was just kind of going by this inspiration of love.

It was just kind of going by this inspiration of love.

I think, what do you mean by writing ahead of your abilities?

I think, what do you mean by writing ahead of your abilities?

You know, I didn't have as much craft at that time. This is oftentimes your career is an equation of craft and inspiration, and so lacking in craft and at twenty two, but the inspiration was out of ten. You know that feeling when I was writing it, what this feels beautiful, This feels this feels lovely. You know, I love this feeling how it's coming out and how I can see the characters and in retrospect now thirty years later, can see that. You know, I was really listening to the characters almost like a novelist, and following it. And so the end result is I wrote the screenplay that ended up becoming a bidding War from my parents' guest bedroom where me and my wife were living in the guest bedroom. The best bedroom was pink. It was for my sister. Was It was just a you know, we had to get out of here kind of feeling. And this script went out and there was the bidding war and someone offered this amount of money and then that amount of money, and it was crazy.

You know, I didn't have as much craft at that time. This is oftentimes your career is an equation of craft and inspiration, and so lacking in craft and at twenty two, but the inspiration was out of ten. You know that feeling when I was writing it, what this feels beautiful, This feels this feels lovely. You know, I love this feeling how it's coming out and how I can see the characters and in retrospect now thirty years later, can see that. You know, I was really listening to the characters almost like a novelist, and following it. And so the end result is I wrote the screenplay that ended up becoming a bidding War from my parents' guest bedroom where me and my wife were living in the guest bedroom. The best bedroom was pink. It was for my sister. Was It was just a you know, we had to get out of here kind of feeling. And this script went out and there was the bidding war and someone offered this amount of money and then that amount of money, and it was crazy.

And I was a kid.

And I was a kid.

I'd run down and I'd be like, mom, they offered this amount of money.

I'd run down and I'd be like, mom, they offered this amount of money.

It's crazy.

It's crazy.

But I only directed this little movie in India, and they saw it as a big, big movie. And this was back in an era of Hollywood where the entire system was geared at original movies. The system was built to nurture original movies, and the spec screenplay markets, screenplay is done on speculation was the kind of gold rush, and so if there was an incredible screenplay that came out, everyone would read it immediately and it would go in this bidding war because that was the food that was feeding the engine at that time to the movie theaters, and so I was luckily kind of grew up in an era where what I love to do, which is original movies, was really celebrated and promoted, and so everyone bit on it and we sold the tunch of Fox. You know, I was attached to direct, and then I flew out and I put on my graduation suit, which I didn't because I didn't have many suits, so I wore my old suit and then they they listened to me about how I would direct a movie, and then they subsequently fired me off the movie. So it was devastated. Just absolutely What did.

But I only directed this little movie in India, and they saw it as a big, big movie. And this was back in an era of Hollywood where the entire system was geared at original movies. The system was built to nurture original movies, and the spec screenplay markets, screenplay is done on speculation was the kind of gold rush, and so if there was an incredible screenplay that came out, everyone would read it immediately and it would go in this bidding war because that was the food that was feeding the engine at that time to the movie theaters, and so I was luckily kind of grew up in an era where what I love to do, which is original movies, was really celebrated and promoted, and so everyone bit on it and we sold the tunch of Fox. You know, I was attached to direct, and then I flew out and I put on my graduation suit, which I didn't because I didn't have many suits, so I wore my old suit and then they they listened to me about how I would direct a movie, and then they subsequently fired me off the movie. So it was devastated. Just absolutely What did.

You do wrong in your pitch to be a directly?

You do wrong in your pitch to be a directly?

That's really interesting a question I would say. I wasn't a director yet. I had more practice at writing than directing. And of course, sitting in a room telling a chairman of a studio how you'd make a film, and they're asking certain questions, and you know, I don't know if I had a chance at all, you know, before I walked in there.

That's really interesting a question I would say. I wasn't a director yet. I had more practice at writing than directing. And of course, sitting in a room telling a chairman of a studio how you'd make a film, and they're asking certain questions, and you know, I don't know if I had a chance at all, you know, before I walked in there.

In retrospect night, you're now hold fifty three. Yeah, you look at fifty three, you look at thirty, at twenty two, you must have looked twelve.

In retrospect night, you're now hold fifty three. Yeah, you look at fifty three, you look at thirty, at twenty two, you must have looked twelve.

You're absolutely correct, you're absolutely correct.

You're absolutely correct, you're absolutely correct.

You know what's going to give you fifty million dollars to direct a movie when you it's like a twelve year.

You know what's going to give you fifty million dollars to direct a movie when you it's like a twelve year.

Old Yeah, and I'm in this ill fitting suit which makes me even look younger because you're liked you wear your big brother's suit or whatever it was.

Old Yeah, and I'm in this ill fitting suit which makes me even look younger because you're liked you wear your big brother's suit or whatever it was.

I remember the feeling.

I remember the feeling.

I can remember the feeling pitching it to the chairman and then the heads of the studio and going, I'm not I don't I don't believe what I'm saying, and I'm guessing. I was like basically, I was like, I don't know. I'm gonna learn, you know as I do this, because I can see it in my head, you know, so I'll I'll learn.

I can remember the feeling pitching it to the chairman and then the heads of the studio and going, I'm not I don't I don't believe what I'm saying, and I'm guessing. I was like basically, I was like, I don't know. I'm gonna learn, you know as I do this, because I can see it in my head, you know, so I'll I'll learn.

And they took me. I was very painful.

And they took me. I was very painful.

Then I ended up, you know, they talked me into kind of pay rewrite it for some other a list directors of that time. So I had a chance to be in the room at some you know at that time, the top directors, and they would say do this, do that, and I just couldn't. I would rewrite it and it would get worse in retrospect, some kind of mojo curse I put on it, and it could never get it never, It could never bloom into So there was lots of directors that try, two or three directors that tried. So what was really weird about this movie represented some kind of you know, connection with the universe. And I think for a little bit I thought that was a one off and that that's never going to happen again.

Then I ended up, you know, they talked me into kind of pay rewrite it for some other a list directors of that time. So I had a chance to be in the room at some you know at that time, the top directors, and they would say do this, do that, and I just couldn't. I would rewrite it and it would get worse in retrospect, some kind of mojo curse I put on it, and it could never get it never, It could never bloom into So there was lots of directors that try, two or three directors that tried. So what was really weird about this movie represented some kind of you know, connection with the universe. And I think for a little bit I thought that was a one off and that that's never going to happen again.

And that was the fear.

And that was the fear.

That screenplay just became something of a mythic thing for me, like, oh, I'll never get that back again.

That screenplay just became something of a mythic thing for me, like, oh, I'll never get that back again.

M night. Shyamalan writes his masterpiece and then he's haunted by it more after the break. Wait, so what's the next stage in the saga of Labor of Love?

M night. Shyamalan writes his masterpiece and then he's haunted by it more after the break. Wait, so what's the next stage in the saga of Labor of Love?

So sixth sense happens, right? I wrote it, you know a few years later and wonderful outcome. Everyone wanted to make movies with me, and I said to Fox, I would love to have that screen light back.

So sixth sense happens, right? I wrote it, you know a few years later and wonderful outcome. Everyone wanted to make movies with me, and I said to Fox, I would love to have that screen light back.

They said, oh, do you want to make Labor of Love?

They said, oh, do you want to make Labor of Love?

And I said, well, no, I'm thinking about making another movie, which was Unbreakable that I was writing at that time about comic books, even though no one had making comic book movies, and I thought no one would ever see this movie. But it was something that interest me and I said, you know, I was really into genre.

And I said, well, no, I'm thinking about making another movie, which was Unbreakable that I was writing at that time about comic books, even though no one had making comic book movies, and I thought no one would ever see this movie. But it was something that interest me and I said, you know, I was really into genre.

Now.

Now.

I was like, okay, genre is my way. Labor of Love is very it's a very emotional movie. I think I have that as my base tendency to be emotional, and I think until I found genre to balance it, I was too much for people because like I start at a nine, like at emotion. If you and I are talking over drinks about time, I'll be I'll be like, I'll be already emotionally to be you know there. And I think genre helped me balance that. You know, you have to meet the audience where they are. This is something I learned in my mid twenties. When you're telling a story, meet them where they are and don't lecture them and demand that they come to you. You come to them, so you start tonally where they are. So it's a tough world and we have a little we have cynicism. That's how we get through our lives, you know. We balance that to protect our software parts. And genre does that. It comes in and it balances. I have this feeling about movie making, our art that it has to have the right balance of light and dark, and that's when it rings true. The love of a mother to a child has a selfish component. You have to have, you know, a controlling component, then it rings true. There's also the beauty, the pure love you know, of a parent to a child. But if I can get both things in there, then it rings true and you start to see yourself in it. I think genre allows me to show you that the light side, you know. Because of that, I can go very dark. I mean I've killed off more protagonist than anybody. This is like dark stuff, but that's because underneath, I do feel the universe is a benevolent place, and I feel that from that.

I was like, okay, genre is my way. Labor of Love is very it's a very emotional movie. I think I have that as my base tendency to be emotional, and I think until I found genre to balance it, I was too much for people because like I start at a nine, like at emotion. If you and I are talking over drinks about time, I'll be I'll be like, I'll be already emotionally to be you know there. And I think genre helped me balance that. You know, you have to meet the audience where they are. This is something I learned in my mid twenties. When you're telling a story, meet them where they are and don't lecture them and demand that they come to you. You come to them, so you start tonally where they are. So it's a tough world and we have a little we have cynicism. That's how we get through our lives, you know. We balance that to protect our software parts. And genre does that. It comes in and it balances. I have this feeling about movie making, our art that it has to have the right balance of light and dark, and that's when it rings true. The love of a mother to a child has a selfish component. You have to have, you know, a controlling component, then it rings true. There's also the beauty, the pure love you know, of a parent to a child. But if I can get both things in there, then it rings true and you start to see yourself in it. I think genre allows me to show you that the light side, you know. Because of that, I can go very dark. I mean I've killed off more protagonist than anybody. This is like dark stuff, but that's because underneath, I do feel the universe is a benevolent place, and I feel that from that.

So genre has helped me balance things.

So genre has helped me balance things.

Is it fair to say that genre, particularly horror or supernatural, it lowers the stakes in a certain way. What does it allow you to? What's what's the best way to describe the way it It's it's.

Is it fair to say that genre, particularly horror or supernatural, it lowers the stakes in a certain way. What does it allow you to? What's what's the best way to describe the way it It's it's.

Protective when you get really down to it.

Protective when you get really down to it.

I'm just this sentimental dude that's overly earnest. When I speak to people, they think it's gamesmanship.

I'm just this sentimental dude that's overly earnest. When I speak to people, they think it's gamesmanship.

It's not.

It's not.

There's no game at all. I'm I love it, I hate it. I I'm terrified. I'll tell you openly, you know everything, and when we do things like comedy and all this stuff. Those are ways to protect ourselves which I understand and I can use as well. And genre is if I can show you edgy dark things and show you because I do have an agi dark side as well. I just deploy it at the right times that allows me in the in the balance of things in the audience's eyes and their emotional journey.

There's no game at all. I'm I love it, I hate it. I I'm terrified. I'll tell you openly, you know everything, and when we do things like comedy and all this stuff. Those are ways to protect ourselves which I understand and I can use as well. And genre is if I can show you edgy dark things and show you because I do have an agi dark side as well. I just deploy it at the right times that allows me in the in the balance of things in the audience's eyes and their emotional journey.

It's earned.

It's earned.

Then when I do the car scene in sixth sense with the mom and the child, you know I've earned it by by by titillating them and scaring them in a certain way. There's a balancing act that goes on which I think is important for me to acknowledge that this is a conversation with the audience, that it's not just a lecture.

Then when I do the car scene in sixth sense with the mom and the child, you know I've earned it by by by titillating them and scaring them in a certain way. There's a balancing act that goes on which I think is important for me to acknowledge that this is a conversation with the audience, that it's not just a lecture.

Yeah, labor of love is are you saying there's there's no supernatural It is a straight.

Yeah, labor of love is are you saying there's there's no supernatural It is a straight.

Pretty much? Yeah, just a straight you say pretty much, pretty much? Pretty much.

Pretty much? Yeah, just a straight you say pretty much, pretty much? Pretty much.

The reason I say pretty much is there's a tiny bit of spirituality and love, and so that I do represent that in there, that things are bound a bit, that there's some inspirational, magical things that happen sometimes you know that's related to love. So that's all. But there is no genre in it.

The reason I say pretty much is there's a tiny bit of spirituality and love, and so that I do represent that in there, that things are bound a bit, that there's some inspirational, magical things that happen sometimes you know that's related to love. So that's all. But there is no genre in it.

That's we were.

That's we were.

This opportunity came, I would say, you know, fifteen years later where I could make that movie with literally the best actor in the world and the person that I would want to make a movie with more than anybody. It was being squeezed between another movie that I was making for a big studio, and I made the wrong decision and I didn't make it. And when I think back on it now, knowing me and who is the actor, well, I don't want to say just because just because, because it's more about the emotional stuff that we're talking about rather than the kind of the titillation of it, of the names and things like that, if we can, because just because you know, it meant so much to me and him, and I didn't do it, And it was literally because I just wasn't in the right place and I was making destructive decisions at that time. In retrospect and now having gone through, you know, iteration after iteration of who I am in front of the public eye, I with absolute certainty can tell you, I tell you I should have made it at that time.

This opportunity came, I would say, you know, fifteen years later where I could make that movie with literally the best actor in the world and the person that I would want to make a movie with more than anybody. It was being squeezed between another movie that I was making for a big studio, and I made the wrong decision and I didn't make it. And when I think back on it now, knowing me and who is the actor, well, I don't want to say just because just because, because it's more about the emotional stuff that we're talking about rather than the kind of the titillation of it, of the names and things like that, if we can, because just because you know, it meant so much to me and him, and I didn't do it, And it was literally because I just wasn't in the right place and I was making destructive decisions at that time. In retrospect and now having gone through, you know, iteration after iteration of who I am in front of the public eye, I with absolute certainty can tell you, I tell you I should have made it at that time.

Dig into a little bit more why you didn't. Is it on some level terrifying to actually make make real something that you think of as being so perfect or something that if something comes in a lightning bolt, is it scary.

Dig into a little bit more why you didn't. Is it on some level terrifying to actually make make real something that you think of as being so perfect or something that if something comes in a lightning bolt, is it scary.

It was a lot.

It was a lot.

No.

No.

I wish I could say it was something that defendable. It was literally I think I wanted so much to be accepted. I was in a phase of my life where I was willing to, I think, give away the things that were prescious to me to be accepted. And I was so tired of fighting the fight all the time, these original movies and you know.

I wish I could say it was something that defendable. It was literally I think I wanted so much to be accepted. I was in a phase of my life where I was willing to, I think, give away the things that were prescious to me to be accepted. And I was so tired of fighting the fight all the time, these original movies and you know.

Doing things.

Doing things.

And then I didn't have the protection of genre with that movie. It would just be me and this incredible actor. And at that time, I felt like that's a very vulnerable thing, and that it's just an emotional movie and the world's going to just shit trash me and trash us, and and that's the That was the fears. But I was perhaps scared of giving up what I had had not very admirable reasons. They were coming from wanting to be accepted, from wanting money, you know, you know, in other forms, or needing money or whatever it is. And so you know, I I failed it because I was impure. That's how I feel about it and should have one hundred percent done it. This particular actor was, you know, sad by the decision. I would say maybe another eight years later it came up again, and then this time I was the one that said, hey, let's go make this, and the same actor wanted to do it, and then went off and did another piece, a big kind of thing that they were a part of.

And then I didn't have the protection of genre with that movie. It would just be me and this incredible actor. And at that time, I felt like that's a very vulnerable thing, and that it's just an emotional movie and the world's going to just shit trash me and trash us, and and that's the That was the fears. But I was perhaps scared of giving up what I had had not very admirable reasons. They were coming from wanting to be accepted, from wanting money, you know, you know, in other forms, or needing money or whatever it is. And so you know, I I failed it because I was impure. That's how I feel about it and should have one hundred percent done it. This particular actor was, you know, sad by the decision. I would say maybe another eight years later it came up again, and then this time I was the one that said, hey, let's go make this, and the same actor wanted to do it, and then went off and did another piece, a big kind of thing that they were a part of.

And it was successful the thing they did.

And it was successful the thing they did.

But a little bit of it was we missed each other, you know, we missed our moment, you know, a little bit.

But a little bit of it was we missed each other, you know, we missed our moment, you know, a little bit.

But the movie wasn't done with m Night Shyamalan yet not at all. Back with more after the break? How does the way you relate to the movie? How has it changed over the years you're now if thirty years have gone by, Yeah, do you look at it and think about it and see it differently now than you did when you were twenty two?

But the movie wasn't done with m Night Shyamalan yet not at all. Back with more after the break? How does the way you relate to the movie? How has it changed over the years you're now if thirty years have gone by, Yeah, do you look at it and think about it and see it differently now than you did when you were twenty two?

Right now, I wouldn't change anything about it, and we'd make it as a period piece in nineteen ninety four. The music the more is the time, you know, which sadly feels incredibly innocent. It almost feels like, you know, let's take a stroll around the garden, you know, think Oh, I'm so tired from the stroll. Let's lie dout. It's like, you know, when we will see a period piece, we're like, wow, that really were you out to go walk around the garden? Yeah, And that's how we feel about like nineteen ninety four. Oh, we were thought we were really being really bad when we did this. You were just talking with your boys in the basement. How sweet, and you were just all of you just talking about girls because you love God.

Right now, I wouldn't change anything about it, and we'd make it as a period piece in nineteen ninety four. The music the more is the time, you know, which sadly feels incredibly innocent. It almost feels like, you know, let's take a stroll around the garden, you know, think Oh, I'm so tired from the stroll. Let's lie dout. It's like, you know, when we will see a period piece, we're like, wow, that really were you out to go walk around the garden? Yeah, And that's how we feel about like nineteen ninety four. Oh, we were thought we were really being really bad when we did this. You were just talking with your boys in the basement. How sweet, and you were just all of you just talking about girls because you love God.

You know how sweet?

You know how sweet?

You know, like it feels that way, and I when I think about it, it's very nostalgic of a time gone by now and a way people might have reacted.

You know, like it feels that way, and I when I think about it, it's very nostalgic of a time gone by now and a way people might have reacted.

Oh that because the way as the hero goes on his journey, as he's walking across the country, the country is responding to him in a way they wouldn't respond today. Is that your point that in a kind of internet age it would be different.

Oh that because the way as the hero goes on his journey, as he's walking across the country, the country is responding to him in a way they wouldn't respond today. Is that your point that in a kind of internet age it would be different.

Yeah, it's so hard now to unwind it and think of a moment when you didn't have access to every piece of information in the history of man.

Yeah, it's so hard now to unwind it and think of a moment when you didn't have access to every piece of information in the history of man.

You don't know where your your.

You don't know where your your.

Cousin is, and where your uncle is and where your sister is right now. No, you don't write you know, ninety four, we didn't know where anybody was right, and you get a letter or you would if something happened, it would take a while for you to find out all of those ideas of being present. Primarily, it's gone. Our understanding of what it is to be a human being is on us gone because we're never just here anymore. And this phone that's sitting near me as I'm doing this podcast is pulling.

Cousin is, and where your uncle is and where your sister is right now. No, you don't write you know, ninety four, we didn't know where anybody was right, and you get a letter or you would if something happened, it would take a while for you to find out all of those ideas of being present. Primarily, it's gone. Our understanding of what it is to be a human being is on us gone because we're never just here anymore. And this phone that's sitting near me as I'm doing this podcast is pulling.

Me right now. I can feel it. It's pulling me.

Me right now. I can feel it. It's pulling me.

So I'm partly here with you, but it's stolen my soul a little bit, you know. And that was just a different era, and that's all part of them, that time period. When I you know, when I try to rewrite it, when I'm trying to make it better, I'm scarring it. It came out in one thing like that, you know, as this kid was just feeling something.

So I'm partly here with you, but it's stolen my soul a little bit, you know. And that was just a different era, and that's all part of them, that time period. When I you know, when I try to rewrite it, when I'm trying to make it better, I'm scarring it. It came out in one thing like that, you know, as this kid was just feeling something.

When was the last time you read it?

When was the last time you read it?

I probably read it.

I probably read it.

It came out a third time with this with this particular actor.

It came out a third time with this with this particular actor.

A third time. It was four years ago.

A third time. It was four years ago.

So I read it four years ago, four years ago when we talked about.

So I read it four years ago, four years ago when we talked about.

It again, what do the eyes you'll actually do it?

It again, what do the eyes you'll actually do it?

I'm just a strange creature.

I'm just a strange creature.

Bro so if I say to you absolutely never, as soon as a week click off here, I'll probably go make it right.

Bro so if I say to you absolutely never, as soon as a week click off here, I'll probably go make it right.

I've thought about it a lot.

I've thought about it a lot.

Do you do it more as a as a ritual almost to honor that part of you in all of us that came from a pure place, regardless of its success, regardless of what would happen.

Do you do it more as a as a ritual almost to honor that part of you in all of us that came from a pure place, regardless of its success, regardless of what would happen.

There is a kind of a.

There is a kind of a.

Wise warning about labor of love, that there's something where you're blind about the labor. Oh, I always wanted to make that movie about blah blah blah whatever it is, or I always wanted to write that thing.

Wise warning about labor of love, that there's something where you're blind about the labor. Oh, I always wanted to make that movie about blah blah blah whatever it is, or I always wanted to write that thing.

It's a labor of love for me.

It's a labor of love for me.

That automatically means you're blind a little bit. Some massive you know, blind spot exists there. There is that wisdom acumen to be careful of.

That automatically means you're blind a little bit. Some massive you know, blind spot exists there. There is that wisdom acumen to be careful of.

Your labor of loves.

Your labor of loves.

That meant that you were you were kind of obsessed in a way about something. I don't know if that's the case here. I feel even as we talk about it, like, you know, I could go do this in another year and do exactly the way I said it.

That meant that you were you were kind of obsessed in a way about something. I don't know if that's the case here. I feel even as we talk about it, like, you know, I could go do this in another year and do exactly the way I said it.

It's funny.

It's funny.

I had this conversation with someone in my office about it. I said, I don't know if the world even wants to remember feeling this way anymore.

I had this conversation with someone in my office about it. I said, I don't know if the world even wants to remember feeling this way anymore.

It's painful to remember that we used to feel this way, and it.

It's painful to remember that we used to feel this way, and it.

Was was It was okay and wonderful and celebrated and calm.

Was was It was okay and wonderful and celebrated and calm.

When you say feel this way, you mean get swept up in what that man was doing.

When you say feel this way, you mean get swept up in what that man was doing.

Well, yeah, this amount of the expression of love, you know, whereas today it's our relationship to our emotions is so being attacked. We're not supposed to have our own feeling anymore. We're being manipulated by algorithms constantly and distraction, and so the AI world is already deciding how we live and experience our lives. And maybe that's the absolute reason to make it.

Well, yeah, this amount of the expression of love, you know, whereas today it's our relationship to our emotions is so being attacked. We're not supposed to have our own feeling anymore. We're being manipulated by algorithms constantly and distraction, and so the AI world is already deciding how we live and experience our lives. And maybe that's the absolute reason to make it.

I don't know.

I don't know.

As I'm talking to you, this is probably the deepest conversation I've had about it, because it is it is a kind of like are we still Are you still torching yourself about this movie?

As I'm talking to you, this is probably the deepest conversation I've had about it, because it is it is a kind of like are we still Are you still torching yourself about this movie?

Bro?

Bro?

After thirty years?

After thirty years?

This odyssey is that there's been opportunities and there is one now of a wonderful filmmaker that wants to make it themselves the same story.

This odyssey is that there's been opportunities and there is one now of a wonderful filmmaker that wants to make it themselves the same story.

And whether I'm okay with.

And whether I'm okay with.

That, are you?

That, are you?

Bro? I don't know. I don't know that feels like I don't know, I don't know.

Bro? I don't know. I don't know that feels like I don't know, I don't know.

I'm almost shutting down when you're asking me that question, and I haven't. Actually I've actually shut down in that process too.

I'm almost shutting down when you're asking me that question, and I haven't. Actually I've actually shut down in that process too.

So you know this.

So you know this.

So someone just called you up and said someone famous calls you up and says, night, I've read I've read the secret screenplay. Yes, how did this person get a hold of it? They just heard through the great thing.

So someone just called you up and said someone famous calls you up and says, night, I've read I've read the secret screenplay. Yes, how did this person get a hold of it? They just heard through the great thing.

Yeah, And it's happened before. It's happened before. Somebody wants to make it. Every few years, somebody wants to make it. And I could just let it go, just let it go and and and let someone put their point of view on love. So it's this screenplay that represents the purest version of me that's on a page, and it has been chasing me like a ghost or haunting me. It started my career and I've got to do all these amazing things. I continue to just have these incredible opportunities. And really it's like a part of me that I betrayed at one point, and now I can make it now. I mean today, I can make it right now out and I think probably with the same actor. And even as you and I are sitting here I have all these reasons that are holding me back. So I don't know what this screenplay is to me and what this movie is to me. Maybe it's the softest part of me and so scared to show you guys that.

Yeah, And it's happened before. It's happened before. Somebody wants to make it. Every few years, somebody wants to make it. And I could just let it go, just let it go and and and let someone put their point of view on love. So it's this screenplay that represents the purest version of me that's on a page, and it has been chasing me like a ghost or haunting me. It started my career and I've got to do all these amazing things. I continue to just have these incredible opportunities. And really it's like a part of me that I betrayed at one point, and now I can make it now. I mean today, I can make it right now out and I think probably with the same actor. And even as you and I are sitting here I have all these reasons that are holding me back. So I don't know what this screenplay is to me and what this movie is to me. Maybe it's the softest part of me and so scared to show you guys that.

You said that your great fear at the time when you wrote it was that you would never have anything write anything so pure again. But listening to you, my fear about it is that had you made it, then what followed may not have happened. In other words, having as one of your very first screenplay is something so perfect, like fueled all of this extraordinary productivity that came afterwards, And that had you made it and had it been a big success, maybe you would have been kind of paralyzed by that. Like the fact that it's it's unrealized allows you to keep going and right if it's think about the what is the curse of the one hit wonder? The curse of the one hit wonder is someone who is unlucky enough to have written their greatest song. First, it's just bad luck, and everyone looks at the second and the third ones and says it's over for you. Well, it's not over for you. It's just out of order. Right, whereas the same the same thing only put the one hit Wonders breakthrough hit ten years into their career, and we think, oh, what a progression right towards.

You said that your great fear at the time when you wrote it was that you would never have anything write anything so pure again. But listening to you, my fear about it is that had you made it, then what followed may not have happened. In other words, having as one of your very first screenplay is something so perfect, like fueled all of this extraordinary productivity that came afterwards, And that had you made it and had it been a big success, maybe you would have been kind of paralyzed by that. Like the fact that it's it's unrealized allows you to keep going and right if it's think about the what is the curse of the one hit wonder? The curse of the one hit wonder is someone who is unlucky enough to have written their greatest song. First, it's just bad luck, and everyone looks at the second and the third ones and says it's over for you. Well, it's not over for you. It's just out of order. Right, whereas the same the same thing only put the one hit Wonders breakthrough hit ten years into their career, and we think, oh, what a progression right towards.

Yeah, I mean, you know, for me, I keep you know, maybe you're right, the unfinished nature of that is keep driving me. You know, the movie I've just editing now and finishing. When I think of it, I have a little bit of magic feeling about it, and I'm like, oh, this is reminding me of labor of love. When it's feeling effortless and right, You're going, well, where did that come from?

Yeah, I mean, you know, for me, I keep you know, maybe you're right, the unfinished nature of that is keep driving me. You know, the movie I've just editing now and finishing. When I think of it, I have a little bit of magic feeling about it, and I'm like, oh, this is reminding me of labor of love. When it's feeling effortless and right, You're going, well, where did that come from?

How do you do that? And you're like, oh, yeah, that's how it felt to twenty two.

How do you do that? And you're like, oh, yeah, that's how it felt to twenty two.

But then here's the other fear I have that what if you made it and it wasn't magical, then you wouldn't have You would also have destroyed this thing that you've been able to look at throughout your entire career.

But then here's the other fear I have that what if you made it and it wasn't magical, then you wouldn't have You would also have destroyed this thing that you've been able to look at throughout your entire career.

Well, I can tell you if I at twenty two, I wouldn't have made it a particularly great movie that at that moment, I think we've been you know, up and down, flawed and this and that, And then when we jumped forward to the first time with that, the most incredible actor. I wasn't in the right emotional space to have made it properly. Now that we're really getting serious about it, Yeah, so that wouldn't have worked out either, because I just was not where I am right now.

Well, I can tell you if I at twenty two, I wouldn't have made it a particularly great movie that at that moment, I think we've been you know, up and down, flawed and this and that, And then when we jumped forward to the first time with that, the most incredible actor. I wasn't in the right emotional space to have made it properly. Now that we're really getting serious about it, Yeah, so that wouldn't have worked out either, because I just was not where I am right now.

One last question, what is your What does your wife say this president the creation?

One last question, what is your What does your wife say this president the creation?

That's a great question, I would.

That's a great question, I would.

I think she's seen me torture myself for thirty years about.

I think she's seen me torture myself for thirty years about.

This in her mind.

This in her mind.

You know, for a while she kept asking me why do you keep killing off the wife?

You know, for a while she kept asking me why do you keep killing off the wife?

You know, like in signs.

You know, like in signs.

And He's like, why do you keep killing off the wives? And I'm like, no, no, no, it's because I'm so scared to lose you. You know, she knows I wrote it for her, and so it's kind of already in our lives.

And He's like, why do you keep killing off the wives? And I'm like, no, no, no, it's because I'm so scared to lose you. You know, she knows I wrote it for her, and so it's kind of already in our lives.

Is it already happened? It already existed, and what was made and was so lovely?

Is it already happened? It already existed, and what was made and was so lovely?

You know. I have this check from back when we used to get checks and from twenty century Fox, and it was my first check that I got, and I have it framed. It's in my office, so it's if you come to my office, which you will, and it's there, and then if you go into the cafeteria. There's a poster of a mock up of a poster the twenty century Fox made for Labor of Love, and that's hanging on my wall, so on my walls all the movies. I'm mad in a movie that wasn't me.

You know. I have this check from back when we used to get checks and from twenty century Fox, and it was my first check that I got, and I have it framed. It's in my office, so it's if you come to my office, which you will, and it's there, and then if you go into the cafeteria. There's a poster of a mock up of a poster the twenty century Fox made for Labor of Love, and that's hanging on my wall, so on my walls all the movies. I'm mad in a movie that wasn't me.

It's your own ghost. You've you've created your own ghost.

It's your own ghost. You've you've created your own ghost.

Night.

Night.

This has been so much fun. Thank you so much. I really really really enjoyed this.

This has been so much fun. Thank you so much. I really really really enjoyed this.

You're so lovely. Thank you for having me.

You're so lovely. Thank you for having me.

I was learning something about myself too as we were talking. You're a good therapist, man. I was starting to get there.

I was learning something about myself too as we were talking. You're a good therapist, man. I was starting to get there.

This episode was produced by Nina Bird, Lawrence, and Tali Emen, with ben at Alphaffrey, editing by Sarah Nix, original scoring by Luis Gara, Engineering by Eco Mountain. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. I'm Malcolm Glamo.

This episode was produced by Nina Bird, Lawrence, and Tali Emen, with ben at Alphaffrey, editing by Sarah Nix, original scoring by Luis Gara, Engineering by Eco Mountain. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. I'm Malcolm Glamo.