Pushkin.

Pushkin.

May thirty first, twenty twenty six, days after the death of George Floyd, A small group of people gather in a room somewhere in downtown Minneapolis.

May thirty first, twenty twenty six, days after the death of George Floyd, A small group of people gather in a room somewhere in downtown Minneapolis.

So, okay, so let's just we're going to try to run this way to typically run the years, right. I'm just going to identify everybody in the room here for the record. Okay.

So, okay, so let's just we're going to try to run this way to typically run the years, right. I'm just going to identify everybody in the room here for the record. Okay.

Two investigators from the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, one FBI agent, two attorneys, and the first police officer to arrive at the scene at the corner of thirty eighth in Chicago that day, Thomas Lane. He's there to give a statement about what happened. If you've ever watched videos of the death of George Floyd, Lane is the tall one six' seven right next To Derek chauvin Restraining floyd's.

Two investigators from the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, one FBI agent, two attorneys, and the first police officer to arrive at the scene at the corner of thirty eighth in Chicago that day, Thomas Lane. He's there to give a statement about what happened. If you've ever watched videos of the death of George Floyd, Lane is the tall one six' seven right next To Derek chauvin Restraining floyd's.

LEGS i guess just tell us in your own. WORDS i did much details, possible is what happened from me in. Perspective, okay.

LEGS i guess just tell us in your own. WORDS i did much details, possible is what happened from me in. Perspective, okay.

We were dispensed To cornerie And partner's report at the Cup.

We were dispensed To cornerie And partner's report at the Cup.

FOODS i believe in the call notes it said that the suspect was still on scene in The. Mercedes we drove to the call we didn't act bitter like and sirens BECAUSE i believe the relatively. Polls and we got there and entered the, building entered Cup foods Of. Business there's a staff member there that, said you, know they're still. Here he, goes he was holding a bill and he, goes they gave me.

FOODS i believe in the call notes it said that the suspect was still on scene in The. Mercedes we drove to the call we didn't act bitter like and sirens BECAUSE i believe the relatively. Polls and we got there and entered the, building entered Cup foods Of. Business there's a staff member there that, said you, know they're still. Here he, goes he was holding a bill and he, goes they gave me.

This it's a big.

This it's a big.

Twenty he pointed across the street and they're, like he's it's he's in the car over, there you, know go get in before he drives. Off SO i, said you, know and he started walking, out AND i was, like you, know just head back and we'll take care of.

Twenty he pointed across the street and they're, like he's it's he's in the car over, there you, know go get in before he drives. Off SO i, said you, know and he started walking, out AND i was, like you, know just head back and we'll take care of.

It lane and his Partner Alexander king walk across the street to the Parked. Mercedes there are two men in the front. Seats lane knocks on the window with his. Flashlight the men turn and see the.

It lane and his Partner Alexander king walk across the street to the Parked. Mercedes there are two men in the front. Seats lane knocks on the window with his. Flashlight the men turn and see the.

Officers they both started kind of digging underneath the. Seat looked like they were reaching for, something AND i said that To. KING i, said they're moving around quite a. Bit AS i was coming across the, STREET i walked up to the driver's side of the. VEHICLE i knocked on the glass and the driver was sitting with his hand down below the, seat kind of leaning forward like, this AND i, said let me see your other, hand AND i directed, them let me see your other. Hand he didn't do, that and he was, just you, know, oh it's no devil or. Whatever and he cut his hand down there and he just glanced. Back SO i took my gun out and you, know AND i, said let me see your your other buck of, hand put your hand. Up gave commands to do. That i'm not sure how. MANY i think they gave a, few.

Officers they both started kind of digging underneath the. Seat looked like they were reaching for, something AND i said that To. KING i, said they're moving around quite a. Bit AS i was coming across the, STREET i walked up to the driver's side of the. VEHICLE i knocked on the glass and the driver was sitting with his hand down below the, seat kind of leaning forward like, this AND i, said let me see your other, hand AND i directed, them let me see your other. Hand he didn't do, that and he was, just you, know, oh it's no devil or. Whatever and he cut his hand down there and he just glanced. Back SO i took my gun out and you, know AND i, said let me see your your other buck of, hand put your hand. Up gave commands to do. That i'm not sure how. MANY i think they gave a, few.

AND i don't know.

AND i don't know.

Why and he quickly went like, this like pulled his hand out real, fast AND i kind of like took a step, back AND i was, Like.

Why and he quickly went like, this like pulled his hand out real, fast AND i kind of like took a step, back AND i was, Like.

Jesus and what are you.

Jesus and what are you.

Doing my name Is Malcolm. Gladwell you're listening To Revisionist, history my podcast about things overlooked and. Misunderstood this episode is part two of our examination Of Derek chauvin's murder Of George. Floyd in this, EPISODE i want to look at the case from a different, perspective through the eyes of the first police officer to Approach George, Floyd Thomas, lane who at the time had been a fully fledged member of The Minneapolis Police department for only four. Days may twenty, fifth twenty twenty Was Memorial, day a Lovely minneapolis summer. Evening people are outside walking. About it's just after eight pm When lane and his partner pull up to The Cup foods on the corner of thirty eighth In. Chicago lane Pulls floyd out of his, car handcuffs, him sits him on his, sidewalk takes his, information then Walks floyd over to the squad car and puts him in the back. Seat Only floyd doesn't want to get in the back, seat So laine and his Partner king try to force him into. It then a second squad car pulls, Up Derek chauvin gets. Out floyd is struggling so much With lanne And king that he cuts his mouth badly enough That lane calls an. Ambulance lane Thinks floyd is on. Drugs he's acting, erratically and they found a glass pipe on him when they searched. Him they decided to keep him restrained so he can't move or hurt himself. Anymore they call ems a second time and upgrade their request To code, three the most urgent, level life threatening immediate response lights and. Sirens so, far all of this is nothing out of the.

Doing my name Is Malcolm. Gladwell you're listening To Revisionist, history my podcast about things overlooked and. Misunderstood this episode is part two of our examination Of Derek chauvin's murder Of George. Floyd in this, EPISODE i want to look at the case from a different, perspective through the eyes of the first police officer to Approach George, Floyd Thomas, lane who at the time had been a fully fledged member of The Minneapolis Police department for only four. Days may twenty, fifth twenty twenty Was Memorial, day a Lovely minneapolis summer. Evening people are outside walking. About it's just after eight pm When lane and his partner pull up to The Cup foods on the corner of thirty eighth In. Chicago lane Pulls floyd out of his, car handcuffs, him sits him on his, sidewalk takes his, information then Walks floyd over to the squad car and puts him in the back. Seat Only floyd doesn't want to get in the back, seat So laine and his Partner king try to force him into. It then a second squad car pulls, Up Derek chauvin gets. Out floyd is struggling so much With lanne And king that he cuts his mouth badly enough That lane calls an. Ambulance lane Thinks floyd is on. Drugs he's acting, erratically and they found a glass pipe on him when they searched. Him they decided to keep him restrained so he can't move or hurt himself. Anymore they call ems a second time and upgrade their request To code, three the most urgent, level life threatening immediate response lights and. Sirens so, far all of this is nothing out of the.

Ordinary so was there more to calling that paramedics than just checking his?

Ordinary so was there more to calling that paramedics than just checking his?

MOUTH i think THAT i had mentioned, that you, know this could be possibly excited delirium or.

MOUTH i think THAT i had mentioned, that you, know this could be possibly excited delirium or.

Something, okay excited delirium is something That lane must have learned about at the police. ACADEMY a state of extreme, agitation aggression and. Distress it's not an officially recognized clinical. Diagnosis.

Something, okay excited delirium is something That lane must have learned about at the police. ACADEMY a state of extreme, agitation aggression and. Distress it's not an officially recognized clinical. Diagnosis.

Listen that was the other thing for stepping it, up because he might be in medical.

Listen that was the other thing for stepping it, up because he might be in medical.

Distress were you getting a sense that Mister foyd was having a medical? EMERGENCY i, mean obviously, hindsight but at the, TIME.

Distress were you getting a sense that Mister foyd was having a medical? EMERGENCY i, mean obviously, hindsight but at the, TIME.

I, YEAH i thought maybe that something was going. On but you thought he was passing.

I, YEAH i thought maybe that something was going. On but you thought he was passing.

Out, Yeah chauvin puts his knee On floyd's. Neck lane turns To chauvin and shares his. Concern this man's not doing, well and.

Out, Yeah chauvin puts his knee On floyd's. Neck lane turns To chauvin and shares his. Concern this man's not doing, well and.

You articulated that, yeah, Okay and, well how was that suggestion received by your?

You articulated that, yeah, Okay and, well how was that suggestion received by your?

Opponents they know, Him, yeah they, said just this is.

Opponents they know, Him, yeah they, said just this is.

Fine jovin, said this Is we're just gonna hold him here until you. Arrived SO i suggest, that you, know but they excited, delirium you, know maybe we should roll him on his, side.

Fine jovin, said this Is we're just gonna hold him here until you. Arrived SO i suggest, that you, know but they excited, delirium you, know maybe we should roll him on his, side.

Just to.

Just to.

You, know if he's, LIKE i think it's SOMETHING i had previously.

You, know if he's, LIKE i think it's SOMETHING i had previously.

Learned that h pre just job if he'd roll on his side for recovery position or.

Learned that h pre just job if he'd roll on his side for recovery position or.

Something in the video of The floyd, arrest you can Hear lane make his case To. Chauvin he, says you want him on his, side meaning should we roll him over so he can?

Something in the video of The floyd, arrest you can Hear lane make his case To. Chauvin he, says you want him on his, side meaning should we roll him over so he can?

BREATHE i just worry about that delum or.

BREATHE i just worry about that delum or.

Whatever you want him on his. Side, no he's staying put where we got. Him, okay just worry about the excited delirium or. Whatever that's why we got the ambulance. Coming, OKAY i. SUPPOSE a minute, Later lane, SAYS i think he's passing, out Meaning floyd's in. Trouble let's get off. Him nothing. HAPPENS a minute after, That lane, says once, again want to roll him on his, side as, in he shouldn't be on his. Stomach lane is trying to do the right. Thing he understands the gravity of the. Situation but the crucial thing here is the Way lane sets out to Convince. Chauvin he doesn't make a declarative statement we should put him on his. Side he has to be on his. Side he asks a question he softens. It should we should we put him on his? Side he mentions excited. Delirium he's concerned About floyd's, safety but he undercuts that concern with words that soften his. ALARM i just worrorry about excited delirium or, whatever and, then, finally After chauvin shuts him, down, OKAY i suppose passive aggressive. Agreement sociologists call this mitigated. Speech one of the greatest causes of plane crashes for years was mitigated. Speech in a, cockpit the first officer would see something dangerous and try to let the captain, know but he would do it in such a mitigated way that the captain wouldn't take the new information. SERIOUSLY i wrote about one of those cases in my Book. Outliers it involved a nineteen eighty Two Air florida flight out Of, washington D. C it was a snowy, Day the plane had been in line for takeoff for an unusually long, time and the first officer thinks the plane has a dangerous amount of ice on its wings and should go back for de. Icing listen to how he tries to convince his superior, officer the, captain, look how the ice is just hanging on this back back. There see. That the captain says. Nothing the first officer tries, again see all those icicles on the back there and. Everything the captain ignores. Him the first officer tries a third. Time, boy this is a losing battle. Here trying to de ice those things gives you a false sense of. Security that's all that does. Nothing the plane is inching to the front of the. Line let's check those wingtops, again since we've been setting here a. While the first officer starts with a, hint look at that, ice then a, question see those, icicles then a, suggestion let's check those. Wingtops each, time he's removing one layer of, mitigation getting closer and closer to what is really on his, mind which is that he's. Terrified but only at the very end does he finally get. There it's just after, takeoff as the plane plunges into The. Potomac we're going, Down, larry and the captain, SAYS i know. It Thomas lane is in exactly the same position as that first officer on the. Plane both of them understand the gravity of the situation they're. In the plane has. Ice the man on the ground is in. Trouble but they have a superior who is, fixated who doesn't see what is, happening who is either incapable of processing any new information or doesn't want, To and neither of the subordinates feel they can just come out and say no because they're. Subordinates the state investigator Questioning lane about what happened That Memorial, day picked up on this very.

Whatever you want him on his. Side, no he's staying put where we got. Him, okay just worry about the excited delirium or. Whatever that's why we got the ambulance. Coming, OKAY i. SUPPOSE a minute, Later lane, SAYS i think he's passing, out Meaning floyd's in. Trouble let's get off. Him nothing. HAPPENS a minute after, That lane, says once, again want to roll him on his, side as, in he shouldn't be on his. Stomach lane is trying to do the right. Thing he understands the gravity of the. Situation but the crucial thing here is the Way lane sets out to Convince. Chauvin he doesn't make a declarative statement we should put him on his. Side he has to be on his. Side he asks a question he softens. It should we should we put him on his? Side he mentions excited. Delirium he's concerned About floyd's, safety but he undercuts that concern with words that soften his. ALARM i just worrorry about excited delirium or, whatever and, then, finally After chauvin shuts him, down, OKAY i suppose passive aggressive. Agreement sociologists call this mitigated. Speech one of the greatest causes of plane crashes for years was mitigated. Speech in a, cockpit the first officer would see something dangerous and try to let the captain, know but he would do it in such a mitigated way that the captain wouldn't take the new information. SERIOUSLY i wrote about one of those cases in my Book. Outliers it involved a nineteen eighty Two Air florida flight out Of, washington D. C it was a snowy, Day the plane had been in line for takeoff for an unusually long, time and the first officer thinks the plane has a dangerous amount of ice on its wings and should go back for de. Icing listen to how he tries to convince his superior, officer the, captain, look how the ice is just hanging on this back back. There see. That the captain says. Nothing the first officer tries, again see all those icicles on the back there and. Everything the captain ignores. Him the first officer tries a third. Time, boy this is a losing battle. Here trying to de ice those things gives you a false sense of. Security that's all that does. Nothing the plane is inching to the front of the. Line let's check those wingtops, again since we've been setting here a. While the first officer starts with a, hint look at that, ice then a, question see those, icicles then a, suggestion let's check those. Wingtops each, time he's removing one layer of, mitigation getting closer and closer to what is really on his, mind which is that he's. Terrified but only at the very end does he finally get. There it's just after, takeoff as the plane plunges into The. Potomac we're going, Down, larry and the captain, SAYS i know. It Thomas lane is in exactly the same position as that first officer on the. Plane both of them understand the gravity of the situation they're. In the plane has. Ice the man on the ground is in. Trouble but they have a superior who is, fixated who doesn't see what is, happening who is either incapable of processing any new information or doesn't want, To and neither of the subordinates feel they can just come out and say no because they're. Subordinates the state investigator Questioning lane about what happened That Memorial, day picked up on this very.

Thing you obviously bring it, up so it's clearly you're something thinking about.

Thing you obviously bring it, up so it's clearly you're something thinking about.

What of ented you from just kind of taking charge of that and making the.

What of ented you from just kind of taking charge of that and making the.

CALL i was basically going Off Officer shoubin's experience and what he was saying like this is we're going to hold here and tell you.

CALL i was basically going Off Officer shoubin's experience and what he was saying like this is we're going to hold here and tell you.

Enough, Right lane had been a police officer for four. Days then he reveals another crucial. Fact, listen, well.

Enough, Right lane had been a police officer for four. Days then he reveals another crucial. Fact, listen, well.

You heard in contact with him before the.

You heard in contact with him before the.

State him meaning children, Again, yes.

State him meaning children, Again, yes.

Okay so.

Okay so.

He was one of the other training offers in the precentct THAT i worked, Then SO i had interaction With chin before to the, incident and, uh you, know he took me found how The Hamilton.

He was one of the other training offers in the precentct THAT i worked, Then SO i had interaction With chin before to the, incident and, uh you, know he took me found how The Hamilton.

Hall he had given me guidance on how to handle certain. Calls he says couldn't go, well.

Hall he had given me guidance on how to handle certain. Calls he says couldn't go, well.

But somebody who used him as a resource during your ten day.

But somebody who used him as a resource during your ten day.

Evaluation, yeah there was a.

Evaluation, yeah there was a.

Few calls WHERE i was with another train, officer the think the advice on how the best dandel with.

Few calls WHERE i was with another train, officer the think the advice on how the best dandel with.

All Thomas lane's problem wasn't just that he had only been on the force for four, days that he was a rookie And chauvin was a nineteen year. Veteran it's That lane New. Chauvin he went To chauvin for. Advice how do you defy someone in that? Position not long, ago a Retired chicago police officer Named Jerry finnegan gave an interview to the Dog walk podcast hosted By eddie From Barstool.

All Thomas lane's problem wasn't just that he had only been on the force for four, days that he was a rookie And chauvin was a nineteen year. Veteran it's That lane New. Chauvin he went To chauvin for. Advice how do you defy someone in that? Position not long, ago a Retired chicago police officer Named Jerry finnegan gave an interview to the Dog walk podcast hosted By eddie From Barstool.

SPORTS i, mean, Honestly, EDDIE i LOVED i loved that. Job there wasn't a data goals. By i'm sixty one and there's there's not a data goals by. THAT i, Said, Fuck i'd like to be out, there you, know fucking j and these bad.

SPORTS i, mean, Honestly, EDDIE i LOVED i loved that. Job there wasn't a data goals. By i'm sixty one and there's there's not a data goals by. THAT i, Said, Fuck i'd like to be out, there you, know fucking j and these bad.

Dudes finnigan is, fit close cropped. HAIR i don't think a cop movie has ever been made that didn't include someone who looks and sounds just Like Jerry.

Dudes finnigan is, fit close cropped. HAIR i don't think a cop movie has ever been made that didn't include someone who looks and sounds just Like Jerry.

Finnegan the fucking adrenaline was just incredible and you. KNOW i used to, say it was like you would have ringside tickets to the greatest show On.

Finnegan the fucking adrenaline was just incredible and you. KNOW i used to, say it was like you would have ringside tickets to the greatest show On.

Earth eddie And finnegan talked for almost an. Hour finnegan was promoting his new, Podcast the magnificently Titled Finnegan's, Take reminiscences from his years on the, force and at some, Point finnegan starts to speculate about why his path to promotion was so often blocked by his.

Earth eddie And finnegan talked for almost an. Hour finnegan was promoting his new, Podcast the magnificently Titled Finnegan's, Take reminiscences from his years on the, force and at some, Point finnegan starts to speculate about why his path to promotion was so often blocked by his.

BOSS i didn't know it at the, Time, eddie BUT i WAS i had the most complaints in the.

BOSS i didn't know it at the, Time, eddie BUT i WAS i had the most complaints in the.

City is that why he next to?

City is that why he next to?

You?

You?

Probably, yeah, yeah.

Probably, yeah, yeah.

Probably.

Probably.

Wait chicago police officers are ranked by their complaints the way pop music singles are ranked on The Billboard. Charts yes they. Are the rankings are compiled by an organization called The Citizens Police Data. Project their website consists of a searchable online database of two hundred and fifty thousand complaints lodged against members of THE cpd from nineteen eighty eight to twenty, eighteen and what you learn from looking at the list is that the distribution of problematic police officers within The Chicago Police department is not. Uniform those quarter of a million complaints are not evenly sprinkled across all the many thousands of officers in the. DATABASE a few cops have a lot of, complaints but the majority have almost. None if you made a graph out of the Whole Chicago Police, department there would be a, long low line stretching as far as the eye could, see hovering just above the horizontal axis until the very, end when the line would suddenly. Jump as the statisticians would, say the distribution of complaints has a fat. Tail and who stands at the very fattest part of the? Tale Jerry, finnigan recipient of a grand total of one hundred and seventy five.

Wait chicago police officers are ranked by their complaints the way pop music singles are ranked on The Billboard. Charts yes they. Are the rankings are compiled by an organization called The Citizens Police Data. Project their website consists of a searchable online database of two hundred and fifty thousand complaints lodged against members of THE cpd from nineteen eighty eight to twenty, eighteen and what you learn from looking at the list is that the distribution of problematic police officers within The Chicago Police department is not. Uniform those quarter of a million complaints are not evenly sprinkled across all the many thousands of officers in the. DATABASE a few cops have a lot of, complaints but the majority have almost. None if you made a graph out of the Whole Chicago Police, department there would be a, long low line stretching as far as the eye could, see hovering just above the horizontal axis until the very, end when the line would suddenly. Jump as the statisticians would, say the distribution of complaints has a fat. Tail and who stands at the very fattest part of the? Tale Jerry, finnigan recipient of a grand total of one hundred and seventy five.

Complaints do you remember the war the day that you decide to go on the?

Complaints do you remember the war the day that you decide to go on the?

Take so to? Speak?

Take so to? Speak?

Yeah can you get into that?

Yeah can you get into that?

One?

One?

Sure.

Sure.

Sure we we came into a house in the Eleventh, district chased a guy in there with a, gun and uh searching, around found some dope that was bagged, up kept searching and found a paper bag with. Money there were about eight of, us and took the money out of her and then split it. Up and THEN i don't, know was nervous about, it but after it was, OVER i was, thinking fucking it's dope. Money i'm not. Hurt i'm not taking it from you know your.

Sure we we came into a house in the Eleventh, district chased a guy in there with a, gun and uh searching, around found some dope that was bagged, up kept searching and found a paper bag with. Money there were about eight of, us and took the money out of her and then split it. Up and THEN i don't, know was nervous about, it but after it was, OVER i was, thinking fucking it's dope. Money i'm not. Hurt i'm not taking it from you know your.

Grandmother vinigan ended up doing ten years in prison for tax evasion and planning a murder for higher plot against a fellow. Officer he also cost the city over a million dollars in legal, settlements, which given his position As Alex luthor Of chicago play police, officers shouldn't be that much of a. Surprise problems with fat tales turn out to be. Everywhere here's another. One New York city has twenty five hundred automated cameras which in twenty twenty three handed out seven million speeding. Tickets but are those tickets evenly distributed across all the city's. Drivers, no there's a fat. Tale there were one hundred and eighty six drivers who got more than one hundred tickets in one. Ear that's an average of one ticket every three to four. Days super. Speeders most of us get a ticket and slow down next. Time we take the. Hint not the. Superspeeders on, average that group of one hundred and eighty six each had eleven thousand dollars in unpaid traffic. Fines in my last, Book revenge of the tipping. POINT i had a whole chapter ON. Covid you know, WHAT covid was fat. Tale most of, us when we were infected WITH, covid emitted such a small amount of virus that we didn't pose that much of a danger to. Others but there are a very small number of people, who for reasons we don't entirely, understand when they HAVE, covid produce a massive amount of virus super. Spreaders those are the ones who cause. OUTBREAKS i could go. On the lesson Of New york's super speeders And COVID's super spreaders is that before you figure out how to solve a, problem you have to ask. Yourself AM i dealing with a skinny tail distribution where everyone plays a roughly equal part in contributing to the, Issue or DO i have a fat tail distribution where my problem is a very small number of very rotten. Apples the world's problems are divided into fat tales and skinny, tales and policing is most definitely fat.

Grandmother vinigan ended up doing ten years in prison for tax evasion and planning a murder for higher plot against a fellow. Officer he also cost the city over a million dollars in legal, settlements, which given his position As Alex luthor Of chicago play police, officers shouldn't be that much of a. Surprise problems with fat tales turn out to be. Everywhere here's another. One New York city has twenty five hundred automated cameras which in twenty twenty three handed out seven million speeding. Tickets but are those tickets evenly distributed across all the city's. Drivers, no there's a fat. Tale there were one hundred and eighty six drivers who got more than one hundred tickets in one. Ear that's an average of one ticket every three to four. Days super. Speeders most of us get a ticket and slow down next. Time we take the. Hint not the. Superspeeders on, average that group of one hundred and eighty six each had eleven thousand dollars in unpaid traffic. Fines in my last, Book revenge of the tipping. POINT i had a whole chapter ON. Covid you know, WHAT covid was fat. Tale most of, us when we were infected WITH, covid emitted such a small amount of virus that we didn't pose that much of a danger to. Others but there are a very small number of people, who for reasons we don't entirely, understand when they HAVE, covid produce a massive amount of virus super. Spreaders those are the ones who cause. OUTBREAKS i could go. On the lesson Of New york's super speeders And COVID's super spreaders is that before you figure out how to solve a, problem you have to ask. Yourself AM i dealing with a skinny tail distribution where everyone plays a roughly equal part in contributing to the, Issue or DO i have a fat tail distribution where my problem is a very small number of very rotten. Apples the world's problems are divided into fat tales and skinny, tales and policing is most definitely fat.

TAIL i, mean even you Mentioned George. Floyd In, chicago we had The lawan MacDonald shooting where he was murdered sixteen. Times he was shot by the, cops and those cops were in the top six percent of the police. Force they've been involved in payouts from the city for misconduct and use of, force and tens of millions of dollars before the.

TAIL i, mean even you Mentioned George. Floyd In, chicago we had The lawan MacDonald shooting where he was murdered sixteen. Times he was shot by the, cops and those cops were in the top six percent of the police. Force they've been involved in payouts from the city for misconduct and use of, force and tens of millions of dollars before the.

Shooting That's Andrew, papachristos a criminologist At Northwestern. University if you're a regular, listener you've heard him on this podcast. Before he's talking about a police officer Named Jason Van, dyck another member of The Chicago Police DEPARTMENT Usu Force, peloton who shot a, Teenager lakwan, MacDonald sixteen times for no apparent.

Shooting That's Andrew, papachristos a criminologist At Northwestern. University if you're a regular, listener you've heard him on this podcast. Before he's talking about a police officer Named Jason Van, dyck another member of The Chicago Police DEPARTMENT Usu Force, peloton who shot a, Teenager lakwan, MacDonald sixteen times for no apparent.

Reason so if you had gotten rid of this small percentage or done something different besides shuffle them, around not only would you have saved, lives you would have saved tens of millions of. Dollars you would have saved all of the trauma associated With lawan McDonald's, shooting the unrest in the, city how it layered into these.

Reason so if you had gotten rid of this small percentage or done something different besides shuffle them, around not only would you have saved, lives you would have saved tens of millions of. Dollars you would have saved all of the trauma associated With lawan McDonald's, shooting the unrest in the, city how it layered into these.

Things it's not just though that the officers at the very edge of the distribution do more bad things than anyone. Else it's, that and this is, crucial they lead, others people who wouldn't otherwise be in the fat tale to do bad things as.

Things it's not just though that the officers at the very edge of the distribution do more bad things than anyone. Else it's, that and this is, crucial they lead, others people who wouldn't otherwise be in the fat tale to do bad things as.

Well there are a bunch of studies ours included that show my bad behavior as a police officer is actually affected by the bad behavior of my, Partners so over, Time i'm going to look more like.

Well there are a bunch of studies ours included that show my bad behavior as a police officer is actually affected by the bad behavior of my, Partners so over, Time i'm going to look more like.

You this is called network, spillover And Papa cristo's was part of a group of criminologists who used The Citizens Police Data project to figure out exactly how large this spillover effect. Is they looked at that mountain of data and grouped all of the officers in, networks drawing lines between the people who worked. Together they found that if there was no one in your network who received a use of force, complaint then your chance of getting a use of force complaint was. Minimal but if you had even a modest number of aggressive officers in your, circle your chances of being accused of violence went up by twenty six, percent which is. Massive and this is the problem With Derek. Chauvin he's in The Minneapolis Police Department's Fat. Tale he was the poster child for The Minneapolis Fat. Tale he had a mountain of complaints and because he's a training, officer a nineteen year, veteran the senior officer in nearly every crime scene he arrives, at he spills over into his. Network If chauvin had never shown up that, night if the second squad car never got, called if the whole incident was managed entirely By lane and his, Partner George floyd would have. Lived Thomas lane would have rolled him. Over there would have been no national eruption of pain and. Outrage you wouldn't even know the Name George. Floyd But chauvin shows. Up that's the core of the. Problem on the corner of thirty eighth In.

You this is called network, spillover And Papa cristo's was part of a group of criminologists who used The Citizens Police Data project to figure out exactly how large this spillover effect. Is they looked at that mountain of data and grouped all of the officers in, networks drawing lines between the people who worked. Together they found that if there was no one in your network who received a use of force, complaint then your chance of getting a use of force complaint was. Minimal but if you had even a modest number of aggressive officers in your, circle your chances of being accused of violence went up by twenty six, percent which is. Massive and this is the problem With Derek. Chauvin he's in The Minneapolis Police Department's Fat. Tale he was the poster child for The Minneapolis Fat. Tale he had a mountain of complaints and because he's a training, officer a nineteen year, veteran the senior officer in nearly every crime scene he arrives, at he spills over into his. Network If chauvin had never shown up that, night if the second squad car never got, called if the whole incident was managed entirely By lane and his, Partner George floyd would have. Lived Thomas lane would have rolled him. Over there would have been no national eruption of pain and. Outrage you wouldn't even know the Name George. Floyd But chauvin shows. Up that's the core of the. Problem on the corner of thirty eighth In.

CHICAGO i think anyone who sits through all of that, evidence you, know they hear a couple of times that Officer lane talks about potentially rolling him.

CHICAGO i think anyone who sits through all of that, evidence you, know they hear a couple of times that Officer lane talks about potentially rolling him.

Over That's Amanda, sertic one of THE us attorneys who Prosecuted. Lane she knows the evidence well and specifically the Role lane and his Partner Alexander king played that.

Over That's Amanda, sertic one of THE us attorneys who Prosecuted. Lane she knows the evidence well and specifically the Role lane and his Partner Alexander king played that.

DAY i think he's actually the one who announces When George floyd passes, out so though he's passing, out, yeah and then he's sitting right there next To king When king twice SAYS i can't find a, pulse and they both continue to restrain him for more than two. Minutes after they know he doesn't have a. PULSE i think that's the point WHERE i, mean it just becomes unacceptable not to. Intervene you, know it doesn't take any sort of training, whatsoever as the you, know the witness is on scene, demonstrated it doesn't take any training or even more than a few years on the earth to recognize that he needs medical. Assistance and you can't have someone mean and on his.

DAY i think he's actually the one who announces When George floyd passes, out so though he's passing, out, yeah and then he's sitting right there next To king When king twice SAYS i can't find a, pulse and they both continue to restrain him for more than two. Minutes after they know he doesn't have a. PULSE i think that's the point WHERE i, mean it just becomes unacceptable not to. Intervene you, know it doesn't take any sort of training, whatsoever as the you, know the witness is on scene, demonstrated it doesn't take any training or even more than a few years on the earth to recognize that he needs medical. Assistance and you can't have someone mean and on his.

Neck lane ended up spending two and a half years in federal prison for his part In floyd's. Death sertig and her colleagues felt that he bore at least some portion of the. BLAME i understand their, argument ALTHOUGH i have to SAY i do not agree with. IT a rookie cop on his fourth day on the force tries to write a wrong and fails because his superior officer is a bad. Apple can we really blame? Him haven't all of us in other situations done a version of the same act of mitigated? Speech are you sure we should do? That that's a little, much don't you? Think is that really? Safe but WHERE i hope we can all agree is on the broader lesson here one bad apple can infect the whole. Barrel the fat tail, matters which is why the first step in any attempt to fix the problem with a fat tail distribution is to get rid of the fat tail Target the super speeders contain the super. Spreaders get rid Of Jerry. Finnegan Stop Derek chauvin before he kills, someone not. Afterwards, right if only that's. Simple in the fevered days After floyd, died there were hundreds of people on the streets Of. Minneapolis peaceful protests turned into riots and. Lootings buildings were, burned hundreds of millions of dollars of damage was, done and one night the crowd came calling For Jacob, fry the mayor Of.

Neck lane ended up spending two and a half years in federal prison for his part In floyd's. Death sertig and her colleagues felt that he bore at least some portion of the. BLAME i understand their, argument ALTHOUGH i have to SAY i do not agree with. IT a rookie cop on his fourth day on the force tries to write a wrong and fails because his superior officer is a bad. Apple can we really blame? Him haven't all of us in other situations done a version of the same act of mitigated? Speech are you sure we should do? That that's a little, much don't you? Think is that really? Safe but WHERE i hope we can all agree is on the broader lesson here one bad apple can infect the whole. Barrel the fat tail, matters which is why the first step in any attempt to fix the problem with a fat tail distribution is to get rid of the fat tail Target the super speeders contain the super. Spreaders get rid Of Jerry. Finnegan Stop Derek chauvin before he kills, someone not. Afterwards, right if only that's. Simple in the fevered days After floyd, died there were hundreds of people on the streets Of. Minneapolis peaceful protests turned into riots and. Lootings buildings were, burned hundreds of millions of dollars of damage was, done and one night the crowd came calling For Jacob, fry the mayor Of.

Minneapolis there was a group of about two thousand people that came to my home and they demanded THAT i come out and talk to. Them AND i certainly was not in the habit of avoiding my position on the, topic and so my, wife who was seven months pregnant or, so Said, HEY i could get out there and just tell the.

Minneapolis there was a group of about two thousand people that came to my home and they demanded THAT i come out and talk to. Them AND i certainly was not in the habit of avoiding my position on the, topic and so my, wife who was seven months pregnant or, so Said, HEY i could get out there and just tell the.

Truth fry was thirty nine at the, time he'd been elected mayor three years, earlier.

Truth fry was thirty nine at the, time he'd been elected mayor three years, earlier.

AND i have security or. ANYTHING i walked out. There they called me up to the front and asked IF i would defund the. Police and at the, time this was a very new, phrase and SO i asked them what they meant by, it and they, say, well why don't you get.

AND i have security or. ANYTHING i walked out. There they called me up to the front and asked IF i would defund the. Police and at the, time this was a very new, phrase and SO i asked them what they meant by, it and they, say, well why don't you get.

Rid of the.

Rid of the.

Police it was pretty, clear AND i said, no AND i got shamed and.

Police it was pretty, clear AND i said, no AND i got shamed and.

Booed in the footage of the demonstration that played on the evening, news you can see the mayor walking stiffly through the, crowd wearing a mask that SAYS i can't.

Booed in the footage of the demonstration that played on the evening, news you can see the mayor walking stiffly through the, crowd wearing a mask that SAYS i can't.

BREATHE i, mean it was Like game Of throne, style walking through a ton of people that were throwing things at me and spitting on. Me BUT i was CERTAIN i did the right. Thing there was no question in my mind that refusing to defund the police was the right thing to.

BREATHE i, mean it was Like game Of throne, style walking through a ton of people that were throwing things at me and spitting on. Me BUT i was CERTAIN i did the right. Thing there was no question in my mind that refusing to defund the police was the right thing to.

Do fry was following the logic of the fat. Tail, yes there may have been frustration with law enforcement at, large but if the problem is a small number of bad, apples then what sense is there in upending the whole. Institution what you should be doing is cutting off the fat. Tail the crowds outside gented defund the, police but in, Response fry started making a different. Argument this is what the mayor. Said one of the first of the many press conferences he gave after the death Of George. Floyd unless we are willing to tackle the elephant in the, room which is the police, union there won't be a culture shift in the. Department could you talk a little bit more about that in the context Of. Minneapolis when you said, that what did you.

Do fry was following the logic of the fat. Tail, yes there may have been frustration with law enforcement at, large but if the problem is a small number of bad, apples then what sense is there in upending the whole. Institution what you should be doing is cutting off the fat. Tail the crowds outside gented defund the, police but in, Response fry started making a different. Argument this is what the mayor. Said one of the first of the many press conferences he gave after the death Of George. Floyd unless we are willing to tackle the elephant in the, room which is the police, union there won't be a culture shift in the. Department could you talk a little bit more about that in the context Of. Minneapolis when you said, that what did you.

Mean so here's basically what happened over several decades with this collective bargaining. Agreement the raises were limited in exchange for giving over to The Police federation quite a bit of managerial, authority and so the practice largely was let's keep people's property taxes down so that you don't have these magnificent increases in, wage and an exchange for, that the chief will hand over authorities that should so obviously be with the.

Mean so here's basically what happened over several decades with this collective bargaining. Agreement the raises were limited in exchange for giving over to The Police federation quite a bit of managerial, authority and so the practice largely was let's keep people's property taxes down so that you don't have these magnificent increases in, wage and an exchange for, that the chief will hand over authorities that should so obviously be with the.

Chief the shoe fry is talking about the Police federation or the union having more authority than it. Should has become a common complaint in many of the cities as.

Chief the shoe fry is talking about the Police federation or the union having more authority than it. Should has become a common complaint in many of the cities as.

Well everyone thinks that a police chief should just get rid of bad.

Well everyone thinks that a police chief should just get rid of bad.

Cops That's Daniel. Oates he started his career in the nineteen eighties in THEN mipd and rose to be chief of four separate big city police. Departments After George floyd was, killed he wrote an op ed for The Washington. Post you could be forgiven if you missed. It it was a pretty technical analysis of law enforcement collective bargaining.

Cops That's Daniel. Oates he started his career in the nineteen eighties in THEN mipd and rose to be chief of four separate big city police. Departments After George floyd was, killed he wrote an op ed for The Washington. Post you could be forgiven if you missed. It it was a pretty technical analysis of law enforcement collective bargaining.

Agreements WHAT i tried to explain in That post article is that we as a, democracy in all the societies in WHICH i, worked the four major cities in WHICH i, worked the voter is created inhibitors to the police chief simply firing someone who deserves to be.

Agreements WHAT i tried to explain in That post article is that we as a, democracy in all the societies in WHICH i, worked the four major cities in WHICH i, worked the voter is created inhibitors to the police chief simply firing someone who deserves to be.

Fired at one point in his, Career oates was chief of police In, Aurora, colorado mid sized suburb Of. Denver he had six hundred and fifty officers in his. Department in his more than eight years as, chief there were sixteen he wanted to. Fire that was his fat. TAIL a very small number of his officers were proving to be a. Problem they were, violent they had drinking. Problems he caught them lying on their field, reports on and. On he negotiated complicated severance agreements with twelve of the. Sixteen they agreed to leave The aurora, pade but with a clean, record so it was possible for them to get a job somewhere. Else the remaining four he, fired but then in three of those, cases his decision was reversed on, appeal so of the sixteen bad apples who he thought were not worthy of a role in law, enforcement he succeeded in removing. One the problem is that many police union contracts are full of provisions that hamper internal investigations of. Wrongdoing in a normal criminal, investigation the police questioned any suspect as soon as, Possible but in investigations of allegations against, officers many unions delay that first round of questioning for, days if not, weeks long enough for stories to be straightened, out and before that first, interview in some, cities the police department has to hand over all of its evidence and witnesses in advance to the defendant's, attorney a practice that would be highly unusual in a standard criminal. Investigation Daniel oates says that he ran into this problem when he was called in to clean up The Miami Beach Police.

Fired at one point in his, Career oates was chief of police In, Aurora, colorado mid sized suburb Of. Denver he had six hundred and fifty officers in his. Department in his more than eight years as, chief there were sixteen he wanted to. Fire that was his fat. TAIL a very small number of his officers were proving to be a. Problem they were, violent they had drinking. Problems he caught them lying on their field, reports on and. On he negotiated complicated severance agreements with twelve of the. Sixteen they agreed to leave The aurora, pade but with a clean, record so it was possible for them to get a job somewhere. Else the remaining four he, fired but then in three of those, cases his decision was reversed on, appeal so of the sixteen bad apples who he thought were not worthy of a role in law, enforcement he succeeded in removing. One the problem is that many police union contracts are full of provisions that hamper internal investigations of. Wrongdoing in a normal criminal, investigation the police questioned any suspect as soon as, Possible but in investigations of allegations against, officers many unions delay that first round of questioning for, days if not, weeks long enough for stories to be straightened, out and before that first, interview in some, cities the police department has to hand over all of its evidence and witnesses in advance to the defendant's, attorney a practice that would be highly unusual in a standard criminal. Investigation Daniel oates says that he ran into this problem when he was called in to clean up The Miami Beach Police.

Department, so as you can, imagine once you pour over all the evidence with your, attorney you understand what management has and what management can, prove and you can tailor your answers to questions so as to avoid the worst possible. Sanction effectively if. Necessary you, know if to save your, job you can lie because you know management can't disprove the.

Department, so as you can, imagine once you pour over all the evidence with your, attorney you understand what management has and what management can, prove and you can tailor your answers to questions so as to avoid the worst possible. Sanction effectively if. Necessary you, know if to save your, job you can lie because you know management can't disprove the.

Law did they change that provision in your?

Law did they change that provision in your?

Time?

Time?

There, No, No i've still a stayed lawed for how?

There, No, No i've still a stayed lawed for how?

Much did? That in the end frustrate your ability to improve the quality of policing In Mayo?

Much did? That in the end frustrate your ability to improve the quality of policing In Mayo?

Beach it makes it extremely.

Beach it makes it extremely.

CHALLENGING a small number of officers betray the standards of the, profession but unions protect that fat. Tale it's not the ninety five percent of, honest hardworking police officers who need an extra few weeks to get their stories, straight or who require advanced access to all the evidence and witnesses against. Them Jerry finnigan needs all those. Things Derek chauvin needs all those. Things, somehow a system intended to serve the interests of the many in the thin tail has ended up serving the interests of the crooked few in the fat.

CHALLENGING a small number of officers betray the standards of the, profession but unions protect that fat. Tale it's not the ninety five percent of, honest hardworking police officers who need an extra few weeks to get their stories, straight or who require advanced access to all the evidence and witnesses against. Them Jerry finnigan needs all those. Things Derek chauvin needs all those. Things, somehow a system intended to serve the interests of the many in the thin tail has ended up serving the interests of the crooked few in the fat.

TAIL i can tell you this that nobody despises bad cops more than good.

TAIL i can tell you this that nobody despises bad cops more than good.

Cops That's kathleen. O'Toole she ran both The seattle And boston police.

Cops That's kathleen. O'Toole she ran both The seattle And boston police.

Departments WHEN i fired, people, INEVITABLY i received countless messages from other police officers who, said, Well, chief that should have happened ten years.

Departments WHEN i fired, people, INEVITABLY i received countless messages from other police officers who, said, Well, chief that should have happened ten years.

Ago now, suppose even given all these, impediments a police chief does manage to terminate a problematic, officer the fight isn't. Over there is one final, impediment maybe the biggest of. All the officer has the right of. Appeal in many, cases the accused officer is allowed to restart the entire process from, scratch only this time not with an impartial, judge but with an arbitrator that the union.

Ago now, suppose even given all these, impediments a police chief does manage to terminate a problematic, officer the fight isn't. Over there is one final, impediment maybe the biggest of. All the officer has the right of. Appeal in many, cases the accused officer is allowed to restart the entire process from, scratch only this time not with an impartial, judge but with an arbitrator that the union.

Plays a role in.

Plays a role in.

Choosing with the, result, well you can. GUESS a law professor In chicago Named Stephen russian recently made a list of how often a fired police officer gets reinstated on appeal in most Big american. Cities Ready Miami dade thirty seven, Percent Oklahoma city forty, Percent phoenix forty, Percent washington d. C forty five, Percent philadelphia sixty two, Percent denver sixty seven, percent and, finally the grand prize, Winner San antonio seventy. Percent and where did this exact scenario play Out Minneapolis in the years leading up to the death Of George.

Choosing with the, result, well you can. GUESS a law professor In chicago Named Stephen russian recently made a list of how often a fired police officer gets reinstated on appeal in most Big american. Cities Ready Miami dade thirty seven, Percent Oklahoma city forty, Percent phoenix forty, Percent washington d. C forty five, Percent philadelphia sixty two, Percent denver sixty seven, percent and, finally the grand prize, Winner San antonio seventy. Percent and where did this exact scenario play Out Minneapolis in the years leading up to the death Of George.

Floyd there are more than a few instances when we have terminated someone it works its way up through that, arbitration and the arbitration then overturns the decision that we. Made how does that feel for a chief who's making tough. Calls you make the tough, call you spend a ton of attorney time litigating a, case and then he ultimately. Lose that person comes back on how does that help? Culture because that same person is going to talk to all the other officers, saying, HEY i did this. THING i got. Off this whole concept of a chief making a decision to terminate or discipline and having that decision overturned is detrimental to that chief's ability to run a police department and shift the. Culture they got to be able to set the.

Floyd there are more than a few instances when we have terminated someone it works its way up through that, arbitration and the arbitration then overturns the decision that we. Made how does that feel for a chief who's making tough. Calls you make the tough, call you spend a ton of attorney time litigating a, case and then he ultimately. Lose that person comes back on how does that help? Culture because that same person is going to talk to all the other officers, saying, HEY i did this. THING i got. Off this whole concept of a chief making a decision to terminate or discipline and having that decision overturned is detrimental to that chief's ability to run a police department and shift the. Culture they got to be able to set the.

Tone Jacob fry had first hand evidence of what happens when you can't set the. Tone Derek, chauvin he didn't suddenly emerge as a bad apple on the night Of may twenty, fifth twenty. Twenty he'd been a bad apple for a long. Time you heard the tape in the last episode in twenty, seventeen he beat a kid over the head with a, flashlight opening a wound that required, stitches then put him in a Choke cald threw him on the ground and put his knee on his neck while the boy sobbed in, pain all for no. Reason that was his trademark. Move the other officers didn't say, Anything they just walked silently out of the. Room so the Bad apple stayed in the barrel for three more years until he comes Across George floyd on the corner of thirty eighth In chicago and puts his knee in his neck and just stays, there even After floyd has stopped, breathing And Thomas lane tries to get him to stop multiple, times but then he just gives up and sits there On floyd's dead, body just Like Derek. Schauman Revision's history is produced By Nina, Bird, Lawrence Lucy, sullivan And Ben Nadaph. Haffrey our editor Is Karen schakerji fact Checking Sam, russick mastering By Jake. Gorsky production support From Luke. Leman our executive producer Is Jacob. Smith special thanks To Sarah nix and El. Hafey. Cretacombe I'm Malcolm.

Tone Jacob fry had first hand evidence of what happens when you can't set the. Tone Derek, chauvin he didn't suddenly emerge as a bad apple on the night Of may twenty, fifth twenty. Twenty he'd been a bad apple for a long. Time you heard the tape in the last episode in twenty, seventeen he beat a kid over the head with a, flashlight opening a wound that required, stitches then put him in a Choke cald threw him on the ground and put his knee on his neck while the boy sobbed in, pain all for no. Reason that was his trademark. Move the other officers didn't say, Anything they just walked silently out of the. Room so the Bad apple stayed in the barrel for three more years until he comes Across George floyd on the corner of thirty eighth In chicago and puts his knee in his neck and just stays, there even After floyd has stopped, breathing And Thomas lane tries to get him to stop multiple, times but then he just gives up and sits there On floyd's dead, body just Like Derek. Schauman Revision's history is produced By Nina, Bird, Lawrence Lucy, sullivan And Ben Nadaph. Haffrey our editor Is Karen schakerji fact Checking Sam, russick mastering By Jake. Gorsky production support From Luke. Leman our executive producer Is Jacob. Smith special thanks To Sarah nix and El. Hafey. Cretacombe I'm Malcolm.

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