A veteran loss prevention officer goes rogue and reveals the truly dark side of policing professional shoplifters.
I don't know if you heard reaching the in target someone set a fire in the middle.
Set fire in the middle of the store.
So they can walk out with merchandise.
Yeah, that's kind of a genius idea, Jesus, that there's a fire, like no one's looking at anything exactly. I'm Jonathan Walton and this is Queen of the Con Season six, The California Girls, Episode seven. We definitely play mind games. This is a bonus episode where I sit down with a death defying Lost Prevention officer who retail stores hire to bust shoplifters. I swear this guy's life is like a never ending Hollywood action movie, which probably explains why the company he works for does not want him talking to me. So we're doing the interview on the Extreme DL and we're calling him Charlie. I'm grateful for you and giving me the who's who, because you know, I tried to go through the Lost Prevention but they're very arms length, like they want me to talk to their media spokesperson. They won't give me an actual Lost Prevention guy or girl.
No, and then corporate yeah, really doesn't understand what we go through.
Charlie works at a high end retail store in southern California. I'm not at liberty to say which one, but his Lost Prevention resume is impressive.
I live and breathe Lost Prevention, you name it.
I've worked the Walmart, Ross, TJ Max, Home Goods, Big Lots, this Morning, Final, Northgate Market, Bayata Supermarket by Low Top Value.
And Charlie acknowledges that the way shoplifters are treated these days has drastically changed over the years.
Just back in the days, it was just grab them and risk them and no, now we gotta think the see the whole picture.
So back in the day, you'd see a shop lifter and you'd grab them.
Yeah, we would uh, we would wait till they walk outside the store. Yeah, and then we had control holds and we would handcuff, badge either eight turn around and if they they didn't they resisted, we would use control holds, bring them down, handcuff from or put them against the wall or whatever.
And how long ago are we.
Talking when I did it at Walmart. I'm gonna say.
You been doing this sixteen years. Sixteen years, so I mean when you started that was on Wow, you grab them.
There's actually still companies doing hands on norse Stroms grocery stores, hands on, wow.
Because I've never and now most companies.
Do what all customer service, which means what that's what, that's what we're supposed to do, which means so there's different techniques that that are used, but mainly supposed to be. Let's say, if we see you select a tie and we see you conceal it, so we're supposed to approach you and say, hey, how you doing serve?
Are you finding everything?
Okay?
Exactly do you want?
Do you need some matching socks to go with the tie that you exact exactly that you selected.
And so so you're trying to low key let them know that I saw you hit the tie. I'm onto you. Let me politely try to get you to change your mind. Yeah, and what usually happens? Do they change their mind?
Ah? Very small percentage. Most of these people are drug addicts, don't have a job, gang members.
I mean that's their job as shoplift exactly. Yeah. I had no Bosters.
I had no that's the name boosters.
It's like a career, it's a profession.
Yeap.
Gosh, it blew my mind. I had no idea I talked to one of them. I put an ad on Craigslist and I got daylus with hundreds of shoplifters wanted to talk to me. And I interviewed some of them to see which ones you know, And God, I talked to this girl. Well, she's twenty nine or thirty, forget how old she is. She was homeless and she got into shop lifting accidentally. And you know, another homeless person showed her and then first she was just driving them around and then pay her one hundred bucks and then she got into it. And at her height, she said she was making a thousand dollars a day.
They go to different stores.
Yeah, that's all she does.
So they're exactly so they they make way more than we do. Let's say the average Joe h boosting. So they call it boosting. They call it boost it. Yeah.
Boosting is the act of concealing merchandise and walking out without paying for it.
You know, I've trained a lot of IOPs in the best and LPs are lost loss prevention slash astro protection. Now they call them aster protection.
What do they call them?
So, either it's lost prevention officers or astro protection officer, Asset protection or agent.
It changes in the industry.
The euphemisms are so funny. Why not just call them security?
I think because of a perspective. They want the business aspect to not make it seem like security, like customers to be worried concern about.
Going so so they wanted to knows prevention. So it's all business protection.
Yeah. Every time they make decisions, they change policies or a different approach, approaches. They think about what's best for the business. The violent aspect, the where you can get hurt. I trained people to keep their distance A lot of times. You know, people have questioned me like, hey, why are you so far? Based on uh, you know, my experience of where I grew up and and you know, knowing the streets, I can tell when someone potentially could be aggressive or can have a weapon. So whenever i I'm watching someone, either on the floor or on cameras, I always look at their waistband. I always see their mannerisms and see if they can be aggressive. So thankfully I've never been I've had knife pulled on me, but I've never been stabbed.
Or shot or like a shop left or pulled a knife.
Several times, many times to.
Stab you even though they're stealing. Yeah, you busted them and they're pulling a knife. Yes, how did that end?
It happened so many times.
But the thing with them is that they don't they're not trying to harm you. They're trying to get away. They're trying to get away. So as long as you don't engage them, and as soon as they pull them they pull the knife, then you're you're you're fine, just step away and they walk away. So I've always been far away to where they haven't actually lunched them me to try to stab me, and they they just pulled it, showed it, and then they walked away and I walked away.
So so you have a friend who's also in lost prevention, he's also prevention and you were telling me off, mic he got shot? Yes, how did that happen?
So grocery stores people go to grocery stores, let's say, shoplifters, to eat, to buy, to steal food, or to steal alcohol. So they're they they're the most aggressive by far where you're your encounter aggressive shoplifters or buying shoplifters, because they're trying to eat, they're trying to drink. You know, they're their alcohol.
You know.
So he confronted a subject.
I don't know what he was doing, but he said when he stopped them outside, he he he went hands on.
To to grab them.
He grabbed them, He grabbed them, and the guy pulled the gun and and then I think he blocked. He put his hand up to block, and the bullet went from his hand to his h under his armpit, I believe.
So he got shot in the arm, pitt in the and he lived. He lived, thank god.
You do see the scars and in his hand, so it's it's a big scar and under his arm as well.
But yeah, he lived. And how does that make you feel? Like?
It makes me feel? It reminds me that I need to be safe, you know that that this is my job. But that's their their their their livelihood, that's their as far as like how they're trying to survive, you know, how they're trying to eat, how they're trying to feel their their their addiction, you know. So they they wanted more than I do. So I I understand that I need to be careful, you know, and and play it safe.
And in this current day, twenty twenty four, how are you supposed to monitor potential shoplifters. What are you supposed to do now?
So there's there's there's different ways. There's a physical surveillance, which is on the sales floor, working undercover.
But you're pretending to be another customer.
You're pretending to be a customer.
You're shopping for stuff, you're taking up items, you're reading the directions.
Yes, uh, they know, they know there's undercovers, so so they they know how to read and look for undercovers. So a big thing for me is making not making eye contact. So you know, if you don't make eye contact, you they don't remember you don't see you, right, But you got to know how to watch them without them noticing that you're watching them. So making eye contact is a big thing. Avoid eye contact.
That's so interesting because in the animal kingdom, that's like the ultimate form of aggression. You know, with animals, when you make eye contact, you're just challenging them, and they're like, like, I have a dog and he'll bark at anyone who looks him in the eye. But if they're just walking by, he won't bark at him. But if I'm walking him and someone's looking him in the eye. He's aggressive, right, So that is such a primal animalistic thing. The eye contact, yes, and you know not to look him in the eye, not.
To look him in the eye. And if I do feel that they're watching me, like oh, they notice me, I'll give him my back. I'll give him my back, he'll turn around.
I'll turn around completely give him my back.
And the next thing Lost Prevention Officer Charlie does really gets into the psyche of the shoplifter, and ninety percent of the time it actually makes them change their mind. After the break Welcome Back to Queen of the con Lost Prevention Officer Charlie is explaining the methods he employs to get shoplifters to change their minds.
I am aware of what they're what they have in their hand, what they're looking for. I do quickly glance to see if they have anything in their pockets. So if I see, like, let's say, a squared item that they're carrying, and I see their pockets are empty, and then all of a sudden, I see that squared item it's missing. And I see the pocket with a squared item, I already know he concealed it, you know, So, uh, then what do you do. I give him distance. I give him distance, I make him feel comfortable, and I normally position myself by the exit door or outside.
Again.
Back in the days, we used to wait for them outside and make the stop outside. And now the moment where they conceal, we approach and say in the customer service customer search.
Are you finding everything? Okay?
Yeah, you will find them every everything? Okay?
But but no, no, no, we actually say it depends. It depends.
Okay, So I finish this thought that the guy conceal something into something square in his pocket, he's walking out of the store. You go out the store to wait for him before him now now now yeah, oh no, So now we don't go outside the store. We confront him inside the store. What you say, it depends.
So you got to know your client tele you know, if it's a if it's a.
Uh, a regular mom, regular customer, like more like an opportunist, you approach them in a in a friendlier way, you know, you say, how you doing manage finding everything?
Okay? Can I get you a basket for the item that you have you put in your purse? So so then so they say yes. So I'll normally say Okay, give me the give me the item, and I'll grab the basket I'll give you, I'll put it in the basket, I'll give it to you. But what I do is, as soon as they give me the item or the merchandise, I say, you know what, never mind, and I kick him out.
You kick him out because you have that power to kick him at the store.
Yes, because I already know you.
You just admitted that you you stole the merchandise, you know, So do we kick him out?
Do you need a basket for the item you just put in your pocket?
Yeah? And I do that a lot of times too, even when they haven't concealed. When I can tell or I I they're displaying behavior showing that they.
That they want to steal, I'll say hey, do you want a basket?
And they're like, And then that throws these they know they know there watching them, you know they're stealing. Yes. So so customer service can you can use a lot of tactics.
A lot of times. It's not just hey are you finding everything?
Okay? I'll literally like, for example, but someone comes in and they look suspicious that they're displaying behavior, I'll immediately review outside cameras.
I'll see how they got there.
And let's say they they parked in an adjacent parking lot, like where Burlington is.
Uh and let's say it's a blue van.
So as soon as they come in and they're uh displaying the behavior, you know, they select the card, they're quick selecting merchandise, I'll approach them and I'll say, hey, you're finding everything okay, And they'll say yeah, and I'll say okay, who, hey, I like that blue van you came in. And then and they'll tell me, oh, okay, thanks, and then they already know that I'm that I know how they got there. So uh so yeah, I use different tactics to let them know, like, hey, you're being watched indirectly, you know, and and they and if they respect, I'm like, hey, like is there a problem? I said, no, there is, I'm just providing you with customer service.
That's it's like it's like a it's like a mind f you're doing on them exactly like I know, yeah, so if you steal something, I'll know yeah, and they change their mind.
I must say the ones that have a record, the ones that are trying to avoid going to jail or you know, I must say ninety percent of the time it changes their mind.
Yeah, I would, that would scare the crap out of it.
But they're the ones that are on drugs or or or hungry and they want to sell that that don't care.
Yeah, they'll just keep doing it until you and then what he's supposed to do. So they're not changing their mind.
Okay, so they're not changing their mind. So what I'll say is I'll act like I'm on the phone like with dispatch.
Like they think you're calling the cops.
Yeah, or I'm already on the on the phone with dispatch, and I say, okay, the subject's not complying. He's wearing a blue shirt, black pants, he's the the item is in his front right pocket. He's walking towards the door, and he's not gonna he's not dropping the merchandise. So you guys are outside, all right, cool? So then that that ups another five percent.
And most of the time they'll drop you.
Right because now you've painted the picture even though it's a lie. The cops are outside waiting for them. But I had no idea.
But there is some that again they the addiction or or the hunger, they don't care.
Yeah, it's so I didn't know you play like mind games.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, we definitely played my games. We definitely played played my games.
So now you faked a phone call to police. Yes, you described him, Yes, he thinks police are outside waiting on him. Yes, and yet he chooses to continue shoplifting. Then what do you do?
So so it all depends again, you know. Now we think about the business first, you know, perception. You know, we really don't like to disturb the business environment the customer shop exactly, so people get scared, exactly, they do so, especially where I work at.
The customers are fluent.
In a big name department store, that's the kind of high end. Yes, but we're protecting your identity because you agreed to talk to us.
Yes, thank you, okay, And uh so, so it depends on again, if if I feel that they can potentially get aggressive, you know, loud, uh and I want to avoid that. I will sometimes even allow them to leave, but I'll document the incident, you know, I'll document the incident, burn video. Uh So, we use different methods to to to actually to try to recover, to try to build the case. You know.
So you wouldn't actually call police at that point.
Uh, it depends. In my company, Uh, there's support, there's a value, Uh that that unless they hit that value, they don't want us prosecute. But again it depends if it's like a repeat offender. If I need a prosecute, I prosecute. Yeah, you know, so I I make a split second decision a lot of times depending on the business, the you know, the customer.
It depends, you know.
So what is the value? What's the threat? Is it a thousand dollars? Because I heard in La County it's like a thousand dollars as a felony. Less than that they let them walk out for prosecution.
Yeah. With us, again, it's it's around.
One fifty, one hundred and fifty dollars.
I can pross you, thank you for under one fifty.
So in your mind, if they're stealing something for one hundred and fifty or more, you're going to call the police.
That is our new threshold.
And I have the responsive.
Are the police in my city, they are incredible, They are the best.
We were not in La County.
I am not as I would not want to work in Lli County.
Because in La County it's a different story.
It's a different story.
They just let him walk out hands full of stuff. Nobody does anything.
Yeah, I wouldn't want to work Ellie County right now.
And get this, years ago, Charlie actually worked Lost Prevention at Universal Studios in Hollywood. Universal Studios has Lost Prevention. Yes, And are you pretending to be like a tourist.
Absolutely, it's the funnest, the funnest Lost prevention job I've ever had.
And what are they stealing at Universal Studios? So the most because here's the conceit. Yeah, the fact that they're inside Universal Studios means correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah, they paid one hundred plus dollars to get in there. Yeah, so they paid one hundred plus dollars to steal.
They make that money a lot of them, they do because they know they're gonna they spend one hundred dollars to get in, they're gonna try to walk away with thousands of dollars.
We've got thousands of dollars.
That never occurred to me. People are stealing Universal and what are they stealing exactly?
So the main things that they steal are are we call them palm bos so like keychains, magnets, anything that they can palm and quickly can steal in the pocket from pocket Geene pocket short pockets is number one by far.
And are these thieves at Universal Studios? Are they working for fences? Also? Are they just like doing it for themselves for fun?
Most of them are for fun, I'm gonna say, but a lot of them are for fences, because we have encountered people that.
Steal hundreds of the key chains.
You know someone's reselling somewhere exactly. Yeah, so key chains. It's mainly key chains that they're semall. They're small, and they're they're pricing twenty thirty dollars or more.
You know, so I never thought of that because it's a tiny thing for thirty bucks.
Yeah, yeah, and they and then it's they can fit a lot in their pocket. We deal with a lot of like, uh, trespassers, Uh.
People, sneak in.
People are sneak in chomos chaw molests, uh, mousters, yes, pickpockets uh.
And how do you spot a sham lust? I mean, I guess they're alone. It's like an adult by himself.
Most of the time. They're alone. And since we're wearing backpack. Most of the time we're wearing backpacks. We look like tourists, right, so we just we we stand, uh and mainly the where the kids are, the areas where kids are are around, like like let's say the Simpson area, and you.
Just stand there and you watch, you watch, and.
You see the these these uh almost like sharking, these kids like going around. Yeah, so we we.
So they are there to what touch a kid, grab a kid.
We've had several that we caught touching, touching and really not grabbing. But uh, we've had some exposed themselves to the kid, to kids.
Yeah, so they paid admission. They paid admission to be chomos, to be almost So for the parents listening, let's make this a teachable moment. You have experience. What are the telltale signs of a child molester? What Charlie reveals here is a real eye opener. After the break, Welcome back to Queen of the con Lost Prevention Officer. Charlie used to work at Universal Studios and he figured out the telltale signs for how to spot a child molester.
I'm gonna say a single male, single mail, a single mail, and you know, if he's around areas where there's a lot of kids, you know, and you just see them staring.
They can't help themselves, they.
Can't help themselves. They see him staring at the kids.
They normally target, you know, especially during the summer when when I worked at Universe Studios, females with smaller shorts.
Yeah, short shorts.
Short shorts. But yeah, they mainly stick around the areas where there's a lot of kids, and it's normally single males.
Moms and dads out there. If you're listening, if you see a single male at a theme park around a lot of kids and he's by himself and he's just looking at the kids, yeah he's probably.
I'm not going to say every single male.
You guys a good point. Listen. I love theme parks, but I've never gone to us.
Yeah, no, absolutely no, I agree. And a lot of them you see him wearing like themselves, like kind of revealing clothing, like tight shorts.
Oh they're trying to you know.
So you heard that, moms and dads. So it's a single guy in a part of the park that has a lot of kids wearing tight shorts.
It happens a lot.
Yeah, Wow, why is there so much shoplifting now. It never used to be this way, or am I crazy? But I turned on the news every day at the shoplift that shop, and it's not just California, it's every other freaking stay.
Well, it's worse now because of the laws, you know, and because of the social media. It's just people put videos of themselves running out and staling and like so proud of that exactly, and a lot of people for the TikTok exactly, So people.
Say, why am I going to go spend you know, all this money? I could just stay there, you know.
And the main area where they do it is in the FID rooms, So FIU room cases are are also very difficult. But I'm going to say most retailers are getting hit in the in the fitting room and they're having a hard time like controlling that. So unless you really know how to work a fit room case and you're getting marked in the fire room, it's a slang for murdered.
Marked, yeahrked. God, I'm learning Chomo running merked, murdered, sham moleuster. So what's the trick to fitting room shoplifters?
So fitting room shoplifters the ones that are getting away, and they've got in a way for years.
The moms with the.
They look like moms.
They look like moms.
Yeah, and they to do women.
Exactly well to do women.
It's funny you say that. Michelle Mack, according to court records, she would have her California girls show up with like big Louis Vuitton bags and put the stolen stuff in the bags and louisatans. And there's a purpose to that, Like they don't seem suspicious, right. You see a well to do looking woman with a Louis Vaittan, You're not going to think they're a shop exactly. It would have fooled you exactly.
Not only that, a lot of the LPs are very impatient, so they want these quick cases.
They don't have the patience to wait to forgo the.
Louis Vuittan. So that's I love. I'm to me, I'm just patient and I'm on it, you know. But these moms is the way I pick up on him is, you know, they come in and most of the time they they they're called you know, but they come with these big purses, you know.
So that's a red flag.
Red flag Mom with a big person, Mom with a big person who flat Why do you have such a big purse? And maybe I thought my.
Mom, I have five kids and tapers exactly.
So I'm gonna watch you. You know.
How many loss prevention people have you trained.
In sixteen years. I'm gonna say a.
Good fifty fifty. So you're like a professor.
I feel that I am. When I first started, I'm not gonna lie. I made a lot of bad.
Stops, meaning innocent people.
Innocent people now innocent.
Oh, it didn't go well.
You know, I got yelled at and cussed out, and.
Because they complained about you, they complained.
But but honestly, that's the only way you're gonna learn the hard way.
It's like it's like life.
It's like life.
Nowadays, the companies are not really allowing that to happen. Now, it's pretty much you get it right up, and a lot of times they've been fired, Like right away, you.
Can get fired for stopping an innocent.
Person, absolutely, because there's a good chance you're gonna get sued.
The company is going to get sued.
So back in the day, when you were tackling people to the ground, yes, did you ever tackle an innocent person?
No? Thankfully, No, everyone that we've ever put hands on was guilty.
Yeah, and they were prosecuted. Some of them pulled knives.
Someone pulled knives. They got taken down hard. Uh, some lost lost teeth, Some got hurt pretty pretty bad.
So you punched them, never punched them.
So it's always control holds.
So we know the controls.
How do they lose teeth?
Landed face face face on.
The ground because they're running, you're running, you jump them. Yeah, their face hits the ground.
Exactly from behind and then we fall forward or whatever. But yeah, there's been many that have gotten hurt. We a lot of us have gotten hurt. Yeah, I know, I know.
Please have broken ankles, fingers, noses.
Yeah.
And in your experience, what's the ratio of men and women shoplifters? Are there more men, more women?
Definitely more women.
They're more more women.
So already that's a red flag. If it's an item that's frequently stolen and it's a woman and it looks like a mom with a big bag, she's probably stilling.
Yes, And not only is it more women, a lot of these men have their women stealing. They're like shoplitting pimps exactly. They're the lookout, you know. But I'll see them come in and they'll kind of give them the merchandise, and and then the woman who's you know, go in the fitting room or conciliate on the sales floor, and then he'll walk out and then she'll walk out behind him or whatever, you know.
And then a lot of times when we when they get arrested, they just leave them, you know. So yeah, that's love, Yeah, exactly.
So we have a lot of disabled people that will literally put clothes underneath.
Now are they legitimately disabled or are they pretending to be?
There are some that are pretending because I've had it with a wheelchair, had.
Some run on me when I confront them.
So they're in a wheelchair, you think they can't walk, and then they get up and run.
Run on me.
Yeah. I've had people in crutches when I've in front of them run and there are crutches like like you know, they could barely walk, but once I come in front of them, they ran.
And that dropped it. That's why this is such a con because that's just a costume. The crutches are a costume. They're on crutches because they think this will make lost prevention not notice me or think that I'm too weak or frail or I can't walk so I can't steal. But really it's a bait and switch because and how did you catch the guy on crutches?
I come in front of him, and then when I try to like grab them, his girl punched me twice. She punched me twice, and then he took off running.
He took off running. Yeah, left the crutches behind. Hallelujah. It's a miracle healing.
So she was a writer, writer died for sure, Like she backed them up for sure.
Yeah. How many shoplifters do you observe on a dally basis.
On a good day in a good week. Thirty?
So if you're catching twelve on a on one day, do you think maybe there are a hundred others who got away? One hundred, right? Isn't that like life? It's like we know what we know, but can we extrapolate what we don't know?
Yeah?
If I'm catching twelve, one hundred of gotten away.
And that's why I tell people, like, I know, I don't catch everybody, So I know that there's people that get away.
Yeah, for sure, they get away.
But Charlie is always learning and growing and getting better and better at catching shoplifters. It's a real passion for him.
It's like hide and seek.
That's why I really I enjoy doing it to this day, Like whenever I go to work, I'm like, you know what, I enjoy it going to work. I feel I like protecting my store and I enjoy catching shoplifters. So I came, yeah, yeah, it's fun.
It's fun.
Of people think it's like we're just watching cameras, or they don't understand.
It's like you're pretending to be a customer. You're camouflage exactly. You're looking through holes and shells. But while lost prevention is a and thrill for people like Charlie, for working police officers who get in trouble, lost prevention can be a form of punishment.
In two thousand and six, when I was just what we call a baby cop, I was wrongfully terminated.
Oh.
I went to work for the Home Depot as a lost prevention officer, walking up and down the aisles of Home Depot looking for shoplifters.
And you won't believe how and why Sergeant Jordan Morakian got fired.
I'll tell you it happens a lot in police work. It's a very strange thing that happens when you're somebody that rocks the boat.
That's next time on Queen of the Con. Meanwhile, if you're enjoying Queen of the Con, tell someone click that share button and send this podcast to anyone you think might be into it. Also, if you can leave us a five star review, reviews really help others listeners find us. Queen of the Cohn The California Girls is a production of AYR Media and iHeartMedia, hosted by me Jonathan Walton. Executive producers Jonathan Walton for Jonathan Walton Productions and Elisa Rosen for AYR Media. Consulting producer Evan Goldstein. Written by Jonathan Walton, Edited and mixed by Justin Longerbeam Audio engineer Justin Longerbeam. Mastered by you Guessed It Justin Longerbeam. Legal counsel for AYR Media, Johnny Douglas, Executive producer for iHeartMedia, Maya Howard