This podcast was made on the lands of the Wurrundjeri people, the Woiurrung and the Boonwurrung, and we would like to pay respects to their elders, past and present and emerging.

This podcast was made on the lands of the Wurrundjeri people, the Woiurrung and the Boonwurrung, and we would like to pay respects to their elders, past and present and emerging.

From the Melbourne School of Psychological Sciences at the University of Melbourne, this is PsychTalks.

From the Melbourne School of Psychological Sciences at the University of Melbourne, this is PsychTalks.

Hi there. I'm Professor Nick Haslam and you're joining us for PsychTalks, a series that profiles pioneering research in psychology. Each episode we pick the brains of one of our experts here at the Melbourne School of Psychological Sciences. And to help us do this, I'm joined by Associate Professor Cassie Hayward.

Hi there. I'm Professor Nick Haslam and you're joining us for PsychTalks, a series that profiles pioneering research in psychology. Each episode we pick the brains of one of our experts here at the Melbourne School of Psychological Sciences. And to help us do this, I'm joined by Associate Professor Cassie Hayward.

Hello again, Nick.

Hello again, Nick.

So we're on the topic of e-cigarettes or vapes and what's being done, or what the best research says ought to be done to control their use and misuse.

So we're on the topic of e-cigarettes or vapes and what's being done, or what the best research says ought to be done to control their use and misuse.

Yeah, and it's just it's a bit of a mystery to me as to how teenagers in particular can get their hands on them so easily. I mean, you see vapes for sale in shops almost everywhere. So we're keen to explore the history of vaping and go over some tips on how to talk to your kids about it.

Yeah, and it's just it's a bit of a mystery to me as to how teenagers in particular can get their hands on them so easily. I mean, you see vapes for sale in shops almost everywhere. So we're keen to explore the history of vaping and go over some tips on how to talk to your kids about it.

Mm, because simply saying, Oh, well, they're addictive. Perhaps isn't going to work anymore. That's according to our guest Associate Professor Michelle Jongenelis.

Mm, because simply saying, Oh, well, they're addictive. Perhaps isn't going to work anymore. That's according to our guest Associate Professor Michelle Jongenelis.

Michelle's research specialises in health related behaviours, including tobacco control, and she's a regular advisor on this to not for profits and importantly, the Australian Government.

Michelle's research specialises in health related behaviours, including tobacco control, and she's a regular advisor on this to not for profits and importantly, the Australian Government.

Michelle, thank you for joining us today. We're fascinated to get into this topic of vaping. But before we start on the nitty gritty details, can you just give us a little bit of an introduction about yourself and how you came to be working in tobacco control?

Michelle, thank you for joining us today. We're fascinated to get into this topic of vaping. But before we start on the nitty gritty details, can you just give us a little bit of an introduction about yourself and how you came to be working in tobacco control?

Yeah, sure. So it was serendipity. Actually. I did a master's and a PhD in clinical psychology and upon finishing my PhD started working with a professor who was, uh, doing some pro bono work for

Yeah, sure. So it was serendipity. Actually. I did a master's and a PhD in clinical psychology and upon finishing my PhD started working with a professor who was, uh, doing some pro bono work for

Cancer Council WA and obviously Cancer Council WA and the Cancer Council Federation deal broadly with what things cause cancer. And what can we do to prevent that? And obviously, tobacco control is a huge issue there. So that's how I found myself getting into it in terms of the vaping, specifically about 2016, I started working in this space, and here I am now still working in it. Unfortunately, I wish we had solved the problem?

Cancer Council WA and obviously Cancer Council WA and the Cancer Council Federation deal broadly with what things cause cancer. And what can we do to prevent that? And obviously, tobacco control is a huge issue there. So that's how I found myself getting into it in terms of the vaping, specifically about 2016, I started working in this space, and here I am now still working in it. Unfortunately, I wish we had solved the problem?

Yes, and hopefully, maybe in five years, we won't be having this podcast re aired. But let's see how we go. But we hear a lot about vaping in the news and in social media. But I think there are still a lot of misperceptions about what vaping actually is, what is allowed, what's not allowed. How have we got to where we are? Can you just tell us a bit of a quick history of vaping? If there is such a quick history?

Yes, and hopefully, maybe in five years, we won't be having this podcast re aired. But let's see how we go. But we hear a lot about vaping in the news and in social media. But I think there are still a lot of misperceptions about what vaping actually is, what is allowed, what's not allowed. How have we got to where we are? Can you just tell us a bit of a quick history of vaping? If there is such a quick history?

No thing there's a quick history with vaping. I guess it started, y ou know, a few decades ago, the son of two smokers who had died from smoking had decided to create a a harm reduction product, I guess, in the form of, uh, electronic cigarettes. So that's the original sort of genesis of these products. And then, of course, as you know what happens with most things, the industry sort of started really diversifying and sort of seeing this as an opportunity to get a new generation addicted to nicotine.

No thing there's a quick history with vaping. I guess it started, y ou know, a few decades ago, the son of two smokers who had died from smoking had decided to create a a harm reduction product, I guess, in the form of, uh, electronic cigarettes. So that's the original sort of genesis of these products. And then, of course, as you know what happens with most things, the industry sort of started really diversifying and sort of seeing this as an opportunity to get a new generation addicted to nicotine.

Obviously, their core consumers, being smokers, were dying. How do we get more money through the door? How do we appease our stakeholders and our shareholders. And so there was a big investment in electronic cigarettes from the tobacco industry that happened around 2013. And then since then we've just seen obviously, the issue become increasingly more prevalent with particularly among youth, because the industry then started marketing to that age demographic.

Obviously, their core consumers, being smokers, were dying. How do we get more money through the door? How do we appease our stakeholders and our shareholders. And so there was a big investment in electronic cigarettes from the tobacco industry that happened around 2013. And then since then we've just seen obviously, the issue become increasingly more prevalent with particularly among youth, because the industry then started marketing to that age demographic.

And you talked about electronic cigarettes. I think there's also some confusion about the terms. What's an electronic cigarette? What's a vape? What is the difference?

And you talked about electronic cigarettes. I think there's also some confusion about the terms. What's an electronic cigarette? What's a vape? What is the difference?

There is no difference. That's another sort of industry tactic. So they wanted to obviously move people away from thinking that electronic cigarettes were bad. Let's create a new term for it, so people don't actually know sort of think that the two are related. And that's how the term vape was coined. So vape, electronic cigarettes. They are exactly the same thing.

There is no difference. That's another sort of industry tactic. So they wanted to obviously move people away from thinking that electronic cigarettes were bad. Let's create a new term for it, so people don't actually know sort of think that the two are related. And that's how the term vape was coined. So vape, electronic cigarettes. They are exactly the same thing.

Michelle. Just on this, the wording around vaping. We use vaping, and it's very much different to the word smoking or cigarettes. Has that been a conscious kind of word choice from the industry to separate vaping from smoking, which, you know, if you've grown up in Australia, you have very kind of negative views about smoking. But then this thing vaping is something very different.

Michelle. Just on this, the wording around vaping. We use vaping, and it's very much different to the word smoking or cigarettes. Has that been a conscious kind of word choice from the industry to separate vaping from smoking, which, you know, if you've grown up in Australia, you have very kind of negative views about smoking. But then this thing vaping is something very different.

I believe it is. So if you think of the word vaping, it essentially sort of the connotation that you get is vapour. Oh, it's just water vapour. And that's something we hear a lot from kids and certainly, you know, a couple of years ago there were some people in some surveys that I conducted who said, 'Isn't it just like putting your mouth over a kettle like, isn't that just what it is?' And so I think definitely the industry is using that term the vaping to separate it from smoking and give the impression that it's actually OK.

I believe it is. So if you think of the word vaping, it essentially sort of the connotation that you get is vapour. Oh, it's just water vapour. And that's something we hear a lot from kids and certainly, you know, a couple of years ago there were some people in some surveys that I conducted who said, 'Isn't it just like putting your mouth over a kettle like, isn't that just what it is?' And so I think definitely the industry is using that term the vaping to separate it from smoking and give the impression that it's actually OK.

And we've seen that as well. Where in the industry has now obviously invested in what's called heated tobacco products, which aren't available well, I'm sure you can get them in Australia at some point, but they're not legally available in Australia any means. But they are big over in Europe in particular. So I was in Italy recently, and certainly in Rome, 75% of the people who I saw were smoking were using these new heated tobacco products, not cigarettes.

And we've seen that as well. Where in the industry has now obviously invested in what's called heated tobacco products, which aren't available well, I'm sure you can get them in Australia at some point, but they're not legally available in Australia any means. But they are big over in Europe in particular. So I was in Italy recently, and certainly in Rome, 75% of the people who I saw were smoking were using these new heated tobacco products, not cigarettes.

Now, heated tobacco products are essentially a cigarette that they've put into a metal casing, but they're not calling them cigarettes. They're calling them heat sticks. So the industry is really playing around with a lot of language here to try and sort of distract people from the fact that this is just nicotine. This is just a harmful product. It looks different. It looks flashy. It's in a colourful packaging, but it is still just harmful.

Now, heated tobacco products are essentially a cigarette that they've put into a metal casing, but they're not calling them cigarettes. They're calling them heat sticks. So the industry is really playing around with a lot of language here to try and sort of distract people from the fact that this is just nicotine. This is just a harmful product. It looks different. It looks flashy. It's in a colourful packaging, but it is still just harmful.

Literally smoke and mirrors?

Literally smoke and mirrors?

Exactly. Yes.

Exactly. Yes.

And then what about the regulations and laws? Again, I think it's an area where there's a lot of confusion and you see vapes being sold in toy shops and milk bars and shopping centres, and you can see 12 year olds walk in and come out with vapes. So what are the current regulations and how are they allowing that kind of behaviour?

And then what about the regulations and laws? Again, I think it's an area where there's a lot of confusion and you see vapes being sold in toy shops and milk bars and shopping centres, and you can see 12 year olds walk in and come out with vapes. So what are the current regulations and how are they allowing that kind of behaviour?

Yes, so in Australia at the moment we have, thankfully, nicotine was always considered a poison by the Therapeutic Goods Administration. So this means that Australia was able to classify nicotine containing e-cigarettes or e-cigarette products as a prohibited good. So it was always prohibited unless you had a prescription from your GP to say that you were using it for smoking cessation purposes or I guess, you know, quit smoking, which is what most people would call it. Non nicotine products, though, are available to those over 18. And so that's why we're seeing these stores pop up that are selling supposedly non nicotine. But we know when we take them back to the lab, about 75% of them do contain nicotine.

Yes, so in Australia at the moment we have, thankfully, nicotine was always considered a poison by the Therapeutic Goods Administration. So this means that Australia was able to classify nicotine containing e-cigarettes or e-cigarette products as a prohibited good. So it was always prohibited unless you had a prescription from your GP to say that you were using it for smoking cessation purposes or I guess, you know, quit smoking, which is what most people would call it. Non nicotine products, though, are available to those over 18. And so that's why we're seeing these stores pop up that are selling supposedly non nicotine. But we know when we take them back to the lab, about 75% of them do contain nicotine.

And you say that that's available to over 18 consumers. But we know that kids can walk into those shops and buy them.

And you say that that's available to over 18 consumers. But we know that kids can walk into those shops and buy them.

Absolutely, yeah, so there definitely needs to be some more enforcement, particularly in Victoria. Victoria is now, I think, the only state in Australia to not have a positive licensing scheme, which means anyone can basically sell these products, they don't have to register.

Absolutely, yeah, so there definitely needs to be some more enforcement, particularly in Victoria. Victoria is now, I think, the only state in Australia to not have a positive licensing scheme, which means anyone can basically sell these products, they don't have to register.

We don't know who's selling it or not. All the other states do have a positive licensing scheme. So it makes it tricky with enforcement because nobody can just go into a store because we don't know what stores are selling it. What stores aren't so we're hoping that the Victorian Government makes some changes there very soon.

We don't know who's selling it or not. All the other states do have a positive licensing scheme. So it makes it tricky with enforcement because nobody can just go into a store because we don't know what stores are selling it. What stores aren't so we're hoping that the Victorian Government makes some changes there very soon.

Hi, listeners. Just a quick qualifier here from Michelle. Like Victoria, New South Wales, also doesn't have a positive licensing scheme, however, it does have a negative licensing scheme. This means sellers have to notify the New South Wales Government if they plan on selling e-cigarettes. But they don't need a licence per se, and they can be banned from selling vapes if they're found to have breached the licensing conditions.

Hi, listeners. Just a quick qualifier here from Michelle. Like Victoria, New South Wales, also doesn't have a positive licensing scheme, however, it does have a negative licensing scheme. This means sellers have to notify the New South Wales Government if they plan on selling e-cigarettes. But they don't need a licence per se, and they can be banned from selling vapes if they're found to have breached the licensing conditions.

OK, let's get back to it.

OK, let's get back to it.

That's extraordinary. The idea that these things are being sold as if they don't have nicotine, but they do. I mean, do the purveyors, and do the purchasers have a sort of nudge, nudge, wink, wink? They know it's got nicotine, but they pretend it doesn't? Or is it just people are generally mystified about?

That's extraordinary. The idea that these things are being sold as if they don't have nicotine, but they do. I mean, do the purveyors, and do the purchasers have a sort of nudge, nudge, wink, wink? They know it's got nicotine, but they pretend it doesn't? Or is it just people are generally mystified about?

No, it's generally for the retailers who are selling these products, it's behind the counter. So there was a recent report yesterday showing that these

No, it's generally for the retailers who are selling these products, it's behind the counter. So there was a recent report yesterday showing that these

products are being kept in pizza boxes to make it look like it's actually pizza. But they open the pizza box, and here you go a wide variety of nicotine vapes. So often when you walk into the store, what you're seeing is the non nicotine variety, the supposed non nicotine, and then if you go to the counter and say, actually, you know, I'm looking for a nicotine one. Here's the pizza box full of the nicotine ones.

products are being kept in pizza boxes to make it look like it's actually pizza. But they open the pizza box, and here you go a wide variety of nicotine vapes. So often when you walk into the store, what you're seeing is the non nicotine variety, the supposed non nicotine, and then if you go to the counter and say, actually, you know, I'm looking for a nicotine one. Here's the pizza box full of the nicotine ones.

Yeah, and we certainly know that people aren't going out deliberately, really to purchase non nicotine. So I ran some focus groups earlier this year at random with adolescents, young adults and adults. And I said, What do you think about the fact that non nicotine products are available? And they sort of looked at me blankly and went, what do you mean? There are non nicotine products available? Why would anyone want that? We want the heads spins that comes from the nicotine. Why are you telling us this?

Yeah, and we certainly know that people aren't going out deliberately, really to purchase non nicotine. So I ran some focus groups earlier this year at random with adolescents, young adults and adults. And I said, What do you think about the fact that non nicotine products are available? And they sort of looked at me blankly and went, what do you mean? There are non nicotine products available? Why would anyone want that? We want the heads spins that comes from the nicotine. Why are you telling us this?

So they were really sort of. There was a lot of negative sentiment around the non nicotine stuff being available. So both retailers know they're selling it, and purchasers want actually to buy the nicotine stuff.

So they were really sort of. There was a lot of negative sentiment around the non nicotine stuff being available. So both retailers know they're selling it, and purchasers want actually to buy the nicotine stuff.

I just think it's extraordinary, like if a corner shop was selling a soft drink, but it turned out that 75% of those drinks had alcohol in them. It wouldn't be allowed, so it just seems crazy to me that these non nicotine vapes that actually have nicotine in them are allowed to be sold.

I just think it's extraordinary, like if a corner shop was selling a soft drink, but it turned out that 75% of those drinks had alcohol in them. It wouldn't be allowed, so it just seems crazy to me that these non nicotine vapes that actually have nicotine in them are allowed to be sold.

But what would be wrong with having a non nicotine vape? I mean, isn't it just smelly vapour?

But what would be wrong with having a non nicotine vape? I mean, isn't it just smelly vapour?

Yes, well, that's what a lot of the certainly the adolescents would say. Actually no. So what we know from the research so far is that it's not just the nicotine in these products that's harmful. It's actually a whole bunch of other chemicals and the flavourings as well. So there are certain flavourings, particularly the cherry flavouring uh, that are particularly harmful.

Yes, well, that's what a lot of the certainly the adolescents would say. Actually no. So what we know from the research so far is that it's not just the nicotine in these products that's harmful. It's actually a whole bunch of other chemicals and the flavourings as well. So there are certain flavourings, particularly the cherry flavouring uh, that are particularly harmful.

And I think that's been a problem with Australia's focus on nicotine. Nicotine is that it's giving this perception that the non nicotine ones must be fine, which it's actually not, which is why the government has now introduced or plans to introduce reforms to make it so that both non nicotine and nicotine varieties are prohibited from being used.

And I think that's been a problem with Australia's focus on nicotine. Nicotine is that it's giving this perception that the non nicotine ones must be fine, which it's actually not, which is why the government has now introduced or plans to introduce reforms to make it so that both non nicotine and nicotine varieties are prohibited from being used.

Do you mean the recent reforms in May 2023?

Do you mean the recent reforms in May 2023?

Yes, I do.

Yes, I do.

Right, so that's where I was going with this, the drivers for these reforms. It sounded initially like you were saying it was just to control the substance of nicotine as you would, but it's obviously beyond that. It's also health focus and it's, I mean, who are you marketing a cherry flavour to? It's not people my age.

Right, so that's where I was going with this, the drivers for these reforms. It sounded initially like you were saying it was just to control the substance of nicotine as you would, but it's obviously beyond that. It's also health focus and it's, I mean, who are you marketing a cherry flavour to? It's not people my age.

No, and it's not smokers either. I mean, very few smokers say, Oh, look to quit, I absolutely need the unicorn vomit flavoured e-liquid. How dare you take that away from me? So while there is, you know there's some evidence or certainly anecdotal evidence that smokers say, you know the flavourings actually do help. Broadly when we look at the systematic reviews and the matter analysis there, there is no evidence that flavourings actually do contribute to more successful quitting attempts. So that's what our recommendations has been to government is, you know, we need to be restricting the flavourings, just like we

No, and it's not smokers either. I mean, very few smokers say, Oh, look to quit, I absolutely need the unicorn vomit flavoured e-liquid. How dare you take that away from me? So while there is, you know there's some evidence or certainly anecdotal evidence that smokers say, you know the flavourings actually do help. Broadly when we look at the systematic reviews and the matter analysis there, there is no evidence that flavourings actually do contribute to more successful quitting attempts. So that's what our recommendations has been to government is, you know, we need to be restricting the flavourings, just like we

been doing with tobacco cigarettes over the years. We need to be putting these into similar to plain packaging as well. So if you walk into a store, these things are brightly coloured. There's cartoons on them. A smoker isn't wanting that. It's really it is targeted toward youth. So a lot of the recommendations we're making are about finding that balance between how do we protect youth from potentially taking up these products? And then how do we still provide access to smokers who want to use these products to quit.

been doing with tobacco cigarettes over the years. We need to be putting these into similar to plain packaging as well. So if you walk into a store, these things are brightly coloured. There's cartoons on them. A smoker isn't wanting that. It's really it is targeted toward youth. So a lot of the recommendations we're making are about finding that balance between how do we protect youth from potentially taking up these products? And then how do we still provide access to smokers who want to use these products to quit.

So going back to your personal history, you said you had a slightly strange path to get to where you are now. And you started as a clinical psychologist. Do you think that has had any influence on the way in which you do this work? Or have you just flipped over to the dark side and become a health psychologist? What does being a clinician do to affect how you approach this topic, if anything?

So going back to your personal history, you said you had a slightly strange path to get to where you are now. And you started as a clinical psychologist. Do you think that has had any influence on the way in which you do this work? Or have you just flipped over to the dark side and become a health psychologist? What does being a clinician do to affect how you approach this topic, if anything?

Yeah, I mean, I think when you work at the public health level, you're working at the population level and then when you're working clinically, you're working one on one. So it's often me having to sort of balance how I'm feeling across the board because obviously, you know, we do hear stories of smokers saying, but hey, this is helping me quit. Which is why I think the approach that I'm taking is we can still have these products be accessible to smokers at the individual level while controlling access at the population level.

Yeah, I mean, I think when you work at the public health level, you're working at the population level and then when you're working clinically, you're working one on one. So it's often me having to sort of balance how I'm feeling across the board because obviously, you know, we do hear stories of smokers saying, but hey, this is helping me quit. Which is why I think the approach that I'm taking is we can still have these products be accessible to smokers at the individual level while controlling access at the population level.

So I've sort of tried to merge both sides of me together to create this viewpoint as opposed to being very pro vaping or very anti vaping. I guess I hate that dichotomy because it creates this sort of false debate, but that's sort of how I've managed to deal with it.

So I've sort of tried to merge both sides of me together to create this viewpoint as opposed to being very pro vaping or very anti vaping. I guess I hate that dichotomy because it creates this sort of false debate, but that's sort of how I've managed to deal with it.

So what's actually in these e-cigarettes?

So what's actually in these e-cigarettes?

I mean, who knows? Right. These products are are being imported from, you know, some developing countries. We don't know where they're being made. They could be being made in people's bathtubs. You know, we have actually have no clue.

I mean, who knows? Right. These products are are being imported from, you know, some developing countries. We don't know where they're being made. They could be being made in people's bathtubs. You know, we have actually have no clue.

So we do know that, you know, with the tests that we've conducted in Australia, there are about 200 chemicals in these vapes. Formaldehyde is a big one and then others whose names I can't pronounce. Nicotine is often in vapes as we know. Flavouring. So just a whole bunch of additives, chemicals.

So we do know that, you know, with the tests that we've conducted in Australia, there are about 200 chemicals in these vapes. Formaldehyde is a big one and then others whose names I can't pronounce. Nicotine is often in vapes as we know. Flavouring. So just a whole bunch of additives, chemicals.

And then, of course, the added element of vapes that's different to smoking is the device itself. So the device itself is often made of metal, so then you get degradation so you get heavy metals like zinc that can be ingested as well.

And then, of course, the added element of vapes that's different to smoking is the device itself. So the device itself is often made of metal, so then you get degradation so you get heavy metals like zinc that can be ingested as well.

So it sounds like there's a really good rationale for these reforms, but you're clearly saying that it's not enough. It hasn't gone far enough. So what more do we need to do to deal with this problem in Australia, in particular?

So it sounds like there's a really good rationale for these reforms, but you're clearly saying that it's not enough. It hasn't gone far enough. So what more do we need to do to deal with this problem in Australia, in particular?

Yes. So the reforms that were announced by the government back in May are a good next step. So back in October 2021 they made it the prescription model, essentially, which is, you know, the only country in the world that has this prescription model. If you are wanting to quit smoking using an e-cigarette, visit your GP get a prescription, go to your pharmacist, fill that prescription. Now

Yes. So the reforms that were announced by the government back in May are a good next step. So back in October 2021 they made it the prescription model, essentially, which is, you know, the only country in the world that has this prescription model. If you are wanting to quit smoking using an e-cigarette, visit your GP get a prescription, go to your pharmacist, fill that prescription. Now

the issue with that is obviously the fact that the non nicotine ones are still available and there's fewer controls at the border. People can still import these products. So we've had a mass sort of importation of supposedly non nicotine varieties that we know contain nicotine. And so the next step of reforms which we are really excited about, is the prohibition of both non nicotine and nicotine varieties unless they are being used as a therapeutic product under medical supervision.

the issue with that is obviously the fact that the non nicotine ones are still available and there's fewer controls at the border. People can still import these products. So we've had a mass sort of importation of supposedly non nicotine varieties that we know contain nicotine. And so the next step of reforms which we are really excited about, is the prohibition of both non nicotine and nicotine varieties unless they are being used as a therapeutic product under medical supervision.

So that was the big ticket item. And then, on top of that, there were what we call the more demand side things. Restricting the flavourings so the current consultation out at the moment is restricting flavourings to tobacco or menthol, menthol mint, and then also pharmaceutical -like packaging. If these products are to help people quit, then we're going to put them in pharmaceutical-like packaging.

So that was the big ticket item. And then, on top of that, there were what we call the more demand side things. Restricting the flavourings so the current consultation out at the moment is restricting flavourings to tobacco or menthol, menthol mint, and then also pharmaceutical -like packaging. If these products are to help people quit, then we're going to put them in pharmaceutical-like packaging.

So no more bright colours. And there were also some changes around reducing the nicotine concentration. So Australia had allowed up to 100 milligrams per ml, which is five times the legal limit in the European Union, the UK. So the government is now suggesting we actually align with those countries and only allow 20 milligrams per ml.

So no more bright colours. And there were also some changes around reducing the nicotine concentration. So Australia had allowed up to 100 milligrams per ml, which is five times the legal limit in the European Union, the UK. So the government is now suggesting we actually align with those countries and only allow 20 milligrams per ml.

We're getting rid of the awful disposal e-cigarettes. So they came onto the market in 2018 2019. And that's when we really saw youth use skyrocket. So, apart from these products, being just horrific for the environment, they also are based with nicotine salt highly addictive, highly palatable. So the government is making steps to completely prohibit the disposable products, too.

We're getting rid of the awful disposal e-cigarettes. So they came onto the market in 2018 2019. And that's when we really saw youth use skyrocket. So, apart from these products, being just horrific for the environment, they also are based with nicotine salt highly addictive, highly palatable. So the government is making steps to completely prohibit the disposable products, too.

So it sounds like we're ahead of the curve a little bit in this country, or are we catching up? What's the current overall judgement?

So it sounds like we're ahead of the curve a little bit in this country, or are we catching up? What's the current overall judgement?

We're just taking a different approach to things. Obviously there are other countries that have legalised these products the UK, the US, New Zealand. The approach that we're adopting is the precautionary approach which is consistent with The World Health Organization.

We're just taking a different approach to things. Obviously there are other countries that have legalised these products the UK, the US, New Zealand. The approach that we're adopting is the precautionary approach which is consistent with The World Health Organization.

It always has been, so that's the idea that until we get more information about how harmful or not harmful a product is, we should be cautious about allowing that product to be widely sold or available on the market. I say we're ahead of the curve because what these countries are seeing as a result of legalisation is skyrocketing youth use. And so they allowed free for all and now they're having to implement reforms to restrict those products.

It always has been, so that's the idea that until we get more information about how harmful or not harmful a product is, we should be cautious about allowing that product to be widely sold or available on the market. I say we're ahead of the curve because what these countries are seeing as a result of legalisation is skyrocketing youth use. And so they allowed free for all and now they're having to implement reforms to restrict those products.

I think certainly this will make Australia reclaim its position as a world leader, not just in tobacco control but also in vaping control.

I think certainly this will make Australia reclaim its position as a world leader, not just in tobacco control but also in vaping control.

But globally consumption is still going up. I believe. I think I saw a stat somewhere that there's over 80 million users at present, 10 times up from 10 years earlier when your history started. Is it any different here? Is it flattened out or?

But globally consumption is still going up. I believe. I think I saw a stat somewhere that there's over 80 million users at present, 10 times up from 10 years earlier when your history started. Is it any different here? Is it flattened out or?

No. So use is also increasing here. Despite the sort of restrictions that came in in October 21 we are hoping that these new reforms will start flattening the curve there because the increases that we're seeing in Australia are predominantly in the adolescent young adult group. So what we would call recreational vapers and not using it to quit, and these reforms are directly targeting, you know, the recreational use.

No. So use is also increasing here. Despite the sort of restrictions that came in in October 21 we are hoping that these new reforms will start flattening the curve there because the increases that we're seeing in Australia are predominantly in the adolescent young adult group. So what we would call recreational vapers and not using it to quit, and these reforms are directly targeting, you know, the recreational use.

It's devastating to hear about kids vaping and I think also when we think about how young they are being exposed to it. But is there good data on the prevalence of vaping in young people? Do we know where it's at? In terms of how many of them are have tried it, regularly do it.

It's devastating to hear about kids vaping and I think also when we think about how young they are being exposed to it. But is there good data on the prevalence of vaping in young people? Do we know where it's at? In terms of how many of them are have tried it, regularly do it.

We know that if we communicate the message that these things are being used widely, then it creates a social norm. We don't have any good prevalence data because Covid threw out all our monitoring. So the last sort of year that we collected data on secondary school students was 2017.

We know that if we communicate the message that these things are being used widely, then it creates a social norm. We don't have any good prevalence data because Covid threw out all our monitoring. So the last sort of year that we collected data on secondary school students was 2017.

We're hoping that the data from last year comes out this year or next year, but we've got estimates of you know, at least a third of adolescents and young adults having ever used these products and about 14% being regular users. So that's using monthly.

We're hoping that the data from last year comes out this year or next year, but we've got estimates of you know, at least a third of adolescents and young adults having ever used these products and about 14% being regular users. So that's using monthly.

So you said earlier that under the proposed or actual reforms, you could still have vapes prescribed for certain medically appropriate uses. I forget your exact wording there. So that is for smoking cessation purposes. Is that a good use for vapes, are vapes shown to be effective in reducing smoking?

So you said earlier that under the proposed or actual reforms, you could still have vapes prescribed for certain medically appropriate uses. I forget your exact wording there. So that is for smoking cessation purposes. Is that a good use for vapes, are vapes shown to be effective in reducing smoking?

I mean, the jury is still out there. The recent sort of systematic review conducted by Emily Banks at ANU found that there is limited evidence for the effectiveness of e-cigarettes as a smoking cessation aid. And then even within that there are certain types of e-cigarettes that are better than others. So, like the disposable ones have not been found to be effective or nicotine concentrations above 20 milligrams don't actually add extra benefit.

I mean, the jury is still out there. The recent sort of systematic review conducted by Emily Banks at ANU found that there is limited evidence for the effectiveness of e-cigarettes as a smoking cessation aid. And then even within that there are certain types of e-cigarettes that are better than others. So, like the disposable ones have not been found to be effective or nicotine concentrations above 20 milligrams don't actually add extra benefit.

So for those reasons, they haven't been approved by the Therapeutic Goods Administration yet. But also, the vaping industry hasn't actually put any product to the Therapeutic Goods Administration for approval. And so that's why in Australia we really do need to control access. If you are planning to use these products, then you do need to use it under medical supervision

So for those reasons, they haven't been approved by the Therapeutic Goods Administration yet. But also, the vaping industry hasn't actually put any product to the Therapeutic Goods Administration for approval. And so that's why in Australia we really do need to control access. If you are planning to use these products, then you do need to use it under medical supervision

because they haven't been tested for quality safety efficacy. They haven't gone onto the TGA's registry.

because they haven't been tested for quality safety efficacy. They haven't gone onto the TGA's registry.

Well, I think the fact that you find that non nicotine vapes have nicotine in them demonstrate the lack of kind of regulation and oversight of the products in general.

Well, I think the fact that you find that non nicotine vapes have nicotine in them demonstrate the lack of kind of regulation and oversight of the products in general.

Exactly, and the new reforms that are coming out as well. There's a provision in there that even though these products are being used for smoking cessation purposes with your doctor, that doesn't mean that the product that you are using can just be any product it needs to be approved.

Exactly, and the new reforms that are coming out as well. There's a provision in there that even though these products are being used for smoking cessation purposes with your doctor, that doesn't mean that the product that you are using can just be any product it needs to be approved.

Or it needs to meet the guidelines of what they call the TGA's TGO 110 which is essentially a product standard. So it needs to at least meet Australia's product standards. You can't just be bringing in a random product and saying, This is for smoking cessation and I have a prescription.

Or it needs to meet the guidelines of what they call the TGA's TGO 110 which is essentially a product standard. So it needs to at least meet Australia's product standards. You can't just be bringing in a random product and saying, This is for smoking cessation and I have a prescription.

So you said that a lot of young people are using the vapes. So what are the drivers? Why are kids going in for this? They are not obviously using it for smoking cessation in most cases, why are they doing it?

So you said that a lot of young people are using the vapes. So what are the drivers? Why are kids going in for this? They are not obviously using it for smoking cessation in most cases, why are they doing it?

I mean, the most common answer that we get is they're just curious right. And that curiosity' s obviously stemmed from the very good marketing that the industry does and the flavourings and I wonder what this would taste like. Um, which is another common reason, you know, I use it because I think they taste good in terms of, you know, wanting to initiate. We do have some, um, reports that kids are using it to make

I mean, the most common answer that we get is they're just curious right. And that curiosity' s obviously stemmed from the very good marketing that the industry does and the flavourings and I wonder what this would taste like. Um, which is another common reason, you know, I use it because I think they taste good in terms of, you know, wanting to initiate. We do have some, um, reports that kids are using it to make

moderate their anxiety or moderate the depression. Obviously, we know from the research that e-cigarette use over the longer term actually worsens depressive symptoms. So, you know, there's this emotion regulation aspect to it that might be happening. The curiosity aspect. Kids just wanting to experiment. And then, of course, social norms not wanting to miss out peer pressure, all of that sort of stuff.

moderate their anxiety or moderate the depression. Obviously, we know from the research that e-cigarette use over the longer term actually worsens depressive symptoms. So, you know, there's this emotion regulation aspect to it that might be happening. The curiosity aspect. Kids just wanting to experiment. And then, of course, social norms not wanting to miss out peer pressure, all of that sort of stuff.

So they actually think it's good for them?

So they actually think it's good for them?

Uh, actually, no. So they do recognise that there are health harms. So again, in the focus groups I conducted earlier this year, I asked them, What do you guys know about e-cigs? And they said, Oh, yeah, Look, we know it's bad for you. We've seen the posters at school, but we just ignore them. So there's this knowledge there that these things aren't entirely harmless, but, hey, it's fun. It tastes good. The flavourings are nice. Why not do it?

Uh, actually, no. So they do recognise that there are health harms. So again, in the focus groups I conducted earlier this year, I asked them, What do you guys know about e-cigs? And they said, Oh, yeah, Look, we know it's bad for you. We've seen the posters at school, but we just ignore them. So there's this knowledge there that these things aren't entirely harmless, but, hey, it's fun. It tastes good. The flavourings are nice. Why not do it?

And it seems like that kind of curiosity in kids is ever present in any generation. It's the smoking a cigarette behind the, you know, the shed at school in the seventies is now this kind of trying of vape. But it seems like they are now more addictive, that that curiosity could very quickly escalate into something more now, compared to, say, in previous generations.

And it seems like that kind of curiosity in kids is ever present in any generation. It's the smoking a cigarette behind the, you know, the shed at school in the seventies is now this kind of trying of vape. But it seems like they are now more addictive, that that curiosity could very quickly escalate into something more now, compared to, say, in previous generations.

Yeah, I mean, the issue with vaping is that what we know from the research is that you more likely to then take up tobacco cigarettes after, so it doesn't just have the potential to stop at vaping. It could then escalate into tobacco cigarette use, which is something that the Cancer Council recently found that for the first time in three decades, we've seen an increase in smoking prevalence among adolescents that coincides with the increase in vaping. So we are really, really concerned about that. But yes, it could just be experimentation. But then we know for a lot of kids, it might not be, and it has the potential to escalate.

Yeah, I mean, the issue with vaping is that what we know from the research is that you more likely to then take up tobacco cigarettes after, so it doesn't just have the potential to stop at vaping. It could then escalate into tobacco cigarette use, which is something that the Cancer Council recently found that for the first time in three decades, we've seen an increase in smoking prevalence among adolescents that coincides with the increase in vaping. So we are really, really concerned about that. But yes, it could just be experimentation. But then we know for a lot of kids, it might not be, and it has the potential to escalate.

What can parents do if they're worried about their kids either starting to vape or know that their kids are vaping and want to stop? Maybe starting with the prevention first, how can a parent kind of prevent their kids from or is it just inevitable that kids are going to experiment? Is there anything parents can do to stop their kids going down this vaping path?

What can parents do if they're worried about their kids either starting to vape or know that their kids are vaping and want to stop? Maybe starting with the prevention first, how can a parent kind of prevent their kids from or is it just inevitable that kids are going to experiment? Is there anything parents can do to stop their kids going down this vaping path?

I mean, I think in terms of prevention, it's about having open conversations that don't involve lecturing.

I mean, I think in terms of prevention, it's about having open conversations that don't involve lecturing.

So, you know, I've heard that there's this thing called vaping. I've heard it's a thing at school. Is it coming up at your school? How do you feel about it? So just engaging in those sort of open ended questions and and seeing how they feel, then if you were to sort of sit them down and and tell them about all the harms of vaping, probably not going to make a difference. So that's where I would recommend to stop just having those open conversations.

So, you know, I've heard that there's this thing called vaping. I've heard it's a thing at school. Is it coming up at your school? How do you feel about it? So just engaging in those sort of open ended questions and and seeing how they feel, then if you were to sort of sit them down and and tell them about all the harms of vaping, probably not going to make a difference. So that's where I would recommend to stop just having those open conversations.

If you have a child who is using vapes, then you know, finding out why they're using vape. So something I always say is never tear down a wall before first understanding why it's been built. And if this wall has been built to cope with anxiety and you're suddenly taking that away from your child, there are, you know, there are consequences with that. So asking your child, why are you vaping? If it is because of anxiety, do they need to get some mental health support? Do they need to learn other strategies to cope with anxiety? Is it a social norm thing? Is it that it's happening at school

If you have a child who is using vapes, then you know, finding out why they're using vape. So something I always say is never tear down a wall before first understanding why it's been built. And if this wall has been built to cope with anxiety and you're suddenly taking that away from your child, there are, you know, there are consequences with that. So asking your child, why are you vaping? If it is because of anxiety, do they need to get some mental health support? Do they need to learn other strategies to cope with anxiety? Is it a social norm thing? Is it that it's happening at school

and they're feeling pressured? Does that mean that as a parent, you need to go to the school and sort of talk through it? What else can we be doing here?

and they're feeling pressured? Does that mean that as a parent, you need to go to the school and sort of talk through it? What else can we be doing here?

So I think finding out first why they're vaping will then give you an idea of what to do and how to cope with it. If they are addicted to nicotine, then obviously going and seeing a medical professional or calling the Quitline . And certainly the Quitline has reported an increase in the number of children and parents calling the Quitline because their kids are addicted to nicotine.

So I think finding out first why they're vaping will then give you an idea of what to do and how to cope with it. If they are addicted to nicotine, then obviously going and seeing a medical professional or calling the Quitline . And certainly the Quitline has reported an increase in the number of children and parents calling the Quitline because their kids are addicted to nicotine.

And when should parents start having those conversations? They're probably one of those awkward conversations that parents don't want to have. But what kind of age should they start? At least broaching that topic of Hey, I've heard this thing. Is it at your school?

And when should parents start having those conversations? They're probably one of those awkward conversations that parents don't want to have. But what kind of age should they start? At least broaching that topic of Hey, I've heard this thing. Is it at your school?

Yeah, so I don't want to say primary school, but we are getting reports that kids in late primary school are starting to vape. So I would probably say late primary school and you don't necessarily have to have indepth conversations that,

Yeah, so I don't want to say primary school, but we are getting reports that kids in late primary school are starting to vape. So I would probably say late primary school and you don't necessarily have to have indepth conversations that,

you know, ask too many questions. It's it's more just Hey, there's this thing. Is it a thing at your school? And that could be the end of it. That could be the end of it.

you know, ask too many questions. It's it's more just Hey, there's this thing. Is it a thing at your school? And that could be the end of it. That could be the end of it.

Yeah, and I presume some of those tactics around understanding why the kids are vaping and trying to work on that, that that could be used for adults who find themselves vaping as well. Are those same tactics for quitting vaping relevant to the adults who want to as well?

Yeah, and I presume some of those tactics around understanding why the kids are vaping and trying to work on that, that that could be used for adults who find themselves vaping as well. Are those same tactics for quitting vaping relevant to the adults who want to as well?

Yeah, absolutely so here we sort of talk about the classic behaviour change techniques, what motivates you to vape and then how can we sort of flip the script around that. Setting goals, making it so that you are potentially using other things to modify cravings. So a lot of the stuff that is helpful in the smoking space actually comes in helpful here. So chewing gum, getting out of the house, getting out and about, doing something, distracting yourself. All of those sort of techniques that have been found to work for smokers could also work for vapers.

Yeah, absolutely so here we sort of talk about the classic behaviour change techniques, what motivates you to vape and then how can we sort of flip the script around that. Setting goals, making it so that you are potentially using other things to modify cravings. So a lot of the stuff that is helpful in the smoking space actually comes in helpful here. So chewing gum, getting out of the house, getting out and about, doing something, distracting yourself. All of those sort of techniques that have been found to work for smokers could also work for vapers.

So, Michelle, in terms of these reforms, is there some spending allocated in there for mass media communication to kids, to parents, to teachers, to adults around the dangers of vaping?

So, Michelle, in terms of these reforms, is there some spending allocated in there for mass media communication to kids, to parents, to teachers, to adults around the dangers of vaping?

Yes, so the government has recognised that there hasn't been a national mass media campaign, even in the tobacco space, for almost a decade I think. So they've committed 63 million to mass media campaigns not just for vaping but also tobacco control. And I think what's going to be really important with those

Yes, so the government has recognised that there hasn't been a national mass media campaign, even in the tobacco space, for almost a decade I think. So they've committed 63 million to mass media campaigns not just for vaping but also tobacco control. And I think what's going to be really important with those

campaigns is making sure that we get the messaging right. So there's a sort of sense, certainly with tobacco that you know a lot of the ads over the years have been focusing on the health harms because at the moment it really is just adult smokers who are caring about that.

campaigns is making sure that we get the messaging right. So there's a sort of sense, certainly with tobacco that you know a lot of the ads over the years have been focusing on the health harms because at the moment it really is just adult smokers who are caring about that.

With vaping, i t's a completely different approach because kids don't care about cancer. Because they're not going to get cancer for 40 years, and that's if they get cancer. We don't know. So the traditional approach to campaigns needs to sort of change. So, you know, at the Melbourne Centre for Behaviour Change, we do a bit of communication work as you know, and we sort of wanted to figure out what messages could we look at for kids.

With vaping, i t's a completely different approach because kids don't care about cancer. Because they're not going to get cancer for 40 years, and that's if they get cancer. We don't know. So the traditional approach to campaigns needs to sort of change. So, you know, at the Melbourne Centre for Behaviour Change, we do a bit of communication work as you know, and we sort of wanted to figure out what messages could we look at for kids.

And in the focus groups we did earlier this year, the messages that they seem to connect with the most with vaping was around what chemicals are in there and not just these contain formaldehyde. They were very clear that they wanted to know what formaldehyde then does. So it's not that they don't want to know the health harms. It's just it has to be sort of with some extra information, so you'll see a few campaigns that might come out that will say it contains formaldehyde and this is what formaldehyde does.

And in the focus groups we did earlier this year, the messages that they seem to connect with the most with vaping was around what chemicals are in there and not just these contain formaldehyde. They were very clear that they wanted to know what formaldehyde then does. So it's not that they don't want to know the health harms. It's just it has to be sort of with some extra information, so you'll see a few campaigns that might come out that will say it contains formaldehyde and this is what formaldehyde does.

There's certainly some campaigns in New South Wales that talk about nail polish remover and all of that sort of stuff, So the chemicals one came up really strongly. Also, the concept of dependence. Kids were really worried about becoming dependent on these products. Interestingly, they weren't worried about addiction. They sort of said, Oh, you can get addicted to anything.

There's certainly some campaigns in New South Wales that talk about nail polish remover and all of that sort of stuff, So the chemicals one came up really strongly. Also, the concept of dependence. Kids were really worried about becoming dependent on these products. Interestingly, they weren't worried about addiction. They sort of said, Oh, you can get addicted to anything.

It was the dependence and the consequences of dependence on their life. So it means I might not be able to play football as well as I used to, or I might not be able to make out for as long as I used to. That was another common one we got in the focus groups. Um, so I think dependence chemicals. They were the main sort of themes for consequences.

It was the dependence and the consequences of dependence on their life. So it means I might not be able to play football as well as I used to, or I might not be able to make out for as long as I used to. That was another common one we got in the focus groups. Um, so I think dependence chemicals. They were the main sort of themes for consequences.

Fascinating, just like wording choices. And on your point in addiction. I think kids are forever being told they're addicted to social media. So I think that term has probably become less scary to them because they don't see their social media use as a problem.

Fascinating, just like wording choices. And on your point in addiction. I think kids are forever being told they're addicted to social media. So I think that term has probably become less scary to them because they don't see their social media use as a problem.

Um, I completely agree. I was surprised with the focus groups as well that the dependence word got a better response than the addiction word. Um, and I think you're right. I think kids have become desensitised to the word addiction, and they're using it in everyday language. You know, I'm addicted to this, I'm addicted to that, not realising what addiction is, whereas dependence suddenly introduces this different concept. And maybe in five years time they'll be desensitised to dependence, and we'll have to pick a different word. But I think that's really important because a lot of the stuff we're talking about at the moment is around 'You will become addicted'. That's just not resonating. So I think we need to try a different approach.

Um, I completely agree. I was surprised with the focus groups as well that the dependence word got a better response than the addiction word. Um, and I think you're right. I think kids have become desensitised to the word addiction, and they're using it in everyday language. You know, I'm addicted to this, I'm addicted to that, not realising what addiction is, whereas dependence suddenly introduces this different concept. And maybe in five years time they'll be desensitised to dependence, and we'll have to pick a different word. But I think that's really important because a lot of the stuff we're talking about at the moment is around 'You will become addicted'. That's just not resonating. So I think we need to try a different approach.

I also love the focus on the short term harms, as you say. They don't care about what happens in 40 years time, but they will care if they can't keep playing footy or can't run as fast. And I think that's probably tips that parents can keep in mind as well, in terms of reasons why they might want to try to quit. You know, not about the health harms, but

I also love the focus on the short term harms, as you say. They don't care about what happens in 40 years time, but they will care if they can't keep playing footy or can't run as fast. And I think that's probably tips that parents can keep in mind as well, in terms of reasons why they might want to try to quit. You know, not about the health harms, but

you want to keep playing footy. You wanna keep playing netball, You wanna keep playing soccer? For sure. This is gonna stop your ability to do that.

you want to keep playing footy. You wanna keep playing netball, You wanna keep playing soccer? For sure. This is gonna stop your ability to do that.

You want to keep making out.

You want to keep making out.

Yeah, that's one of those awkward conversations that parents don't want to have. I think they'll focus on the sport, but, yes, really interesting to see that there are, and I think we all have that kind of short term focus in any kind of behaviour, change issue, but much more kind of present for kids in terms of their age. When you're talking about you know something that might happen when they're 60 that's just absolutely, absolutely in the far, far future for them. But but those short term risks are are much more impactful for them.

Yeah, that's one of those awkward conversations that parents don't want to have. I think they'll focus on the sport, but, yes, really interesting to see that there are, and I think we all have that kind of short term focus in any kind of behaviour, change issue, but much more kind of present for kids in terms of their age. When you're talking about you know something that might happen when they're 60 that's just absolutely, absolutely in the far, far future for them. But but those short term risks are are much more impactful for them.

For sure.

For sure.

But another big part of it, in terms of how especially young people are being exposed to this is advertising and the visibility of vapes on social media, where there are far fewer ways to regulate that type of exposure. We can ban ads on TV. Not that kids these days watch TV, but we can ban the ads on TV. We can ban advertising in billboards and those other more formal forms of advertising.

But another big part of it, in terms of how especially young people are being exposed to this is advertising and the visibility of vapes on social media, where there are far fewer ways to regulate that type of exposure. We can ban ads on TV. Not that kids these days watch TV, but we can ban the ads on TV. We can ban advertising in billboards and those other more formal forms of advertising.

And there doesn't seem to be huge a huge amount of regulation in terms of vape content that you know you're seeing the same thing that you saw with cigarettes in the seventies in terms of popular artists and singers using vapes in their music videos, which is now just all on social media. Is there any concern around that side of things in terms of regulating that content?

And there doesn't seem to be huge a huge amount of regulation in terms of vape content that you know you're seeing the same thing that you saw with cigarettes in the seventies in terms of popular artists and singers using vapes in their music videos, which is now just all on social media. Is there any concern around that side of things in terms of regulating that content?

I mean, definitely. I think social media has presented a big issue not just for vaping but also in terms of alcohol and gambling and all the harmful industries. You know, we're not seeing the things that the kids are seeing because, you know, kids are on TikTtok and we're not on TikTok . Well, at least I'm not. I don't know about you two. So you know, certainly that's something that we have presented to the government as a particular issue. And I do know that the reforms that are about to become legislated for tobacco really knuckles down on some of that advertising and specifically mentions that digital advertising.

I mean, definitely. I think social media has presented a big issue not just for vaping but also in terms of alcohol and gambling and all the harmful industries. You know, we're not seeing the things that the kids are seeing because, you know, kids are on TikTtok and we're not on TikTok . Well, at least I'm not. I don't know about you two. So you know, certainly that's something that we have presented to the government as a particular issue. And I do know that the reforms that are about to become legislated for tobacco really knuckles down on some of that advertising and specifically mentions that digital advertising.

How that looks like in terms of how it's enforced is a different story. Because you're right. Kids are able to, you know, buy products that hide their IP, and they can just get access to stuff anywhere around the world. So I think this is an issue that we're battling globally, is how do we manage the digital marketing space?

How that looks like in terms of how it's enforced is a different story. Because you're right. Kids are able to, you know, buy products that hide their IP, and they can just get access to stuff anywhere around the world. So I think this is an issue that we're battling globally, is how do we manage the digital marketing space?

And I think it's also even if we are on TikTok. I am a little bit, but we're not seeing what the kids are seeing. The algorithms are so smart that I'm not getting the content that a 14 year old kid is getting anyway. And if they're interested in vaping, they're going to eventually get to vaping content and then get fed more vaping content. So even if a parent is on TikTok thinking, Oh, yeah, there's not much vaping content here. I'm comfortable that my kid is not being presented with that content.

And I think it's also even if we are on TikTok. I am a little bit, but we're not seeing what the kids are seeing. The algorithms are so smart that I'm not getting the content that a 14 year old kid is getting anyway. And if they're interested in vaping, they're going to eventually get to vaping content and then get fed more vaping content. So even if a parent is on TikTok thinking, Oh, yeah, there's not much vaping content here. I'm comfortable that my kid is not being presented with that content.

They're not seeing what their kid is seeing.

They're not seeing what their kid is seeing.

I think that's the difference between traditional media, where if you sit down and watch TV with your kids, you're all seeing the same ads. It's a totally different environment on that social media kind of landscape,

I think that's the difference between traditional media, where if you sit down and watch TV with your kids, you're all seeing the same ads. It's a totally different environment on that social media kind of landscape,

Yeah, which I think is sort of why we need a more comprehensive approach to vaping control, just like we have with tobacco control. You know there are going to be some things that kids are exposed to that we can't protect them from, and and nor should we. You know there needs to be a certain level

Yeah, which I think is sort of why we need a more comprehensive approach to vaping control, just like we have with tobacco control. You know there are going to be some things that kids are exposed to that we can't protect them from, and and nor should we. You know there needs to be a certain level

of self moderation and resilience, so that's where you know we can also use digital media for mass media campaigns that present the harms of vaping or approach it in a different way. Um, we've got the regulation. Of course. I think policy is super important changing social norms. So, yes, there are these issues in place that need to be addressed. While they are being addressed, we can do other things to help.

of self moderation and resilience, so that's where you know we can also use digital media for mass media campaigns that present the harms of vaping or approach it in a different way. Um, we've got the regulation. Of course. I think policy is super important changing social norms. So, yes, there are these issues in place that need to be addressed. While they are being addressed, we can do other things to help.

When you started on this kind of work, did you ever imagine that you would be so heavily engaged in trying to change policy?

When you started on this kind of work, did you ever imagine that you would be so heavily engaged in trying to change policy?

No, not in a million years. So every time I'm, you know, sitting in a room and the Federal Minister for Health is there and all the CEOs from health agencies are there, I just sort of pinch myself. I'm like, sneakily taking photos of, you know, my name on the desk because I cannot believe that I'm at Parliament House, you know, actually contributing to policy change. It's exciting.

No, not in a million years. So every time I'm, you know, sitting in a room and the Federal Minister for Health is there and all the CEOs from health agencies are there, I just sort of pinch myself. I'm like, sneakily taking photos of, you know, my name on the desk because I cannot believe that I'm at Parliament House, you know, actually contributing to policy change. It's exciting.

What's the most important part of your research that you think has had an impact on actually getting into this policy?

What's the most important part of your research that you think has had an impact on actually getting into this policy?

Well, I think it was the work that we're doing at the moment around e-cigarette prevalence e-cigarette perceptions of use reasons for use, but also what I've started doing with all my work is creating infographics because you know, politicians, decision makers, they don't have time to sift through a 5000 word document that's sitting behind a pay wall.

Well, I think it was the work that we're doing at the moment around e-cigarette prevalence e-cigarette perceptions of use reasons for use, but also what I've started doing with all my work is creating infographics because you know, politicians, decision makers, they don't have time to sift through a 5000 word document that's sitting behind a pay wall.

They want something that's bite size, that they can go to the minister and say, You know, this is what you should be doing. So translating that research, putting it into infographics and then sending that out to everyone has been really, really helpful, I've found.

They want something that's bite size, that they can go to the minister and say, You know, this is what you should be doing. So translating that research, putting it into infographics and then sending that out to everyone has been really, really helpful, I've found.

Michelle, if anyone wants more information about themselves quitting or helping their kids quit or teachers who want resources, where could they go to get that?

Michelle, if anyone wants more information about themselves quitting or helping their kids quit or teachers who want resources, where could they go to get that?

Uh so I have a website drmichellejongenelis.com . I put all resources up on that website, infographics etc. But if you want information just broadly about health behaviour, change communications, then there's also the Melbourne Centre for Behaviour Change, where we have some resources there on you know what motivation is, how to do anything really, smart goal setting if and planning, self -monitoring. So if you're wanting to engage in behaviour, change of any aspect, not just vaping, but increasing your physical activity, then you can jump on to the Melbourne Centre for Behaviour Change.

Uh so I have a website drmichellejongenelis.com . I put all resources up on that website, infographics etc. But if you want information just broadly about health behaviour, change communications, then there's also the Melbourne Centre for Behaviour Change, where we have some resources there on you know what motivation is, how to do anything really, smart goal setting if and planning, self -monitoring. So if you're wanting to engage in behaviour, change of any aspect, not just vaping, but increasing your physical activity, then you can jump on to the Melbourne Centre for Behaviour Change.

And I've seen on your website you have a great simple tool that parents can use for helping their teens, and probably younger than teens, quit vaping, which I think would be a really useful tool for them as well. So we'll put those links in the show notes.

And I've seen on your website you have a great simple tool that parents can use for helping their teens, and probably younger than teens, quit vaping, which I think would be a really useful tool for them as well. So we'll put those links in the show notes.

That was wonderful. Michelle, thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us. And good luck with all of your research endeavours and policy change.

That was wonderful. Michelle, thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us. And good luck with all of your research endeavours and policy change.

Thank you for having me. This is fun.

Thank you for having me. This is fun.

Thanks for listening to psych talks with me, Cassie Hayward and Nick Haslam. We were joined today by Associate Professor Michelle Jongenelis . This episode was produced by Carly Godden with production assistance from Louise Sheedy. Our sound engineer was David Calf.

Thanks for listening to psych talks with me, Cassie Hayward and Nick Haslam. We were joined today by Associate Professor Michelle Jongenelis . This episode was produced by Carly Godden with production assistance from Louise Sheedy. Our sound engineer was David Calf.

And of course, you can find links to all the resources we've mentioned today in our show. Notes See you next time on another episode of PsychTalks.

And of course, you can find links to all the resources we've mentioned today in our show. Notes See you next time on another episode of PsychTalks.