This podcast was made on the lands of the Wurundjeri people, the Woi-Wurrung and the Bunurong. We'd like to pay respects to their elders, past and present, and emerging.

This podcast was made on the lands of the Wurundjeri people, the Woi-Wurrung and the Bunurong. We'd like to pay respects to their elders, past and present, and emerging.

From the Melbourne School of Psychological Sciences at the University of Melbourne, this is PsychTalks.

From the Melbourne School of Psychological Sciences at the University of Melbourne, this is PsychTalks.

Hi, and welcome to PsychTalks. I'm Associate Professor Cassie Hayward,

Hi, and welcome to PsychTalks. I'm Associate Professor Cassie Hayward,

and I'm Nick Haslam, a professor and social psychologist here at the University of Melbourne's School of Psychological Sciences. Well, today is our very last episode for this series, and we really hope you've enjoyed it.

and I'm Nick Haslam, a professor and social psychologist here at the University of Melbourne's School of Psychological Sciences. Well, today is our very last episode for this series, and we really hope you've enjoyed it.

I know I've learned a lot, especially all the takeaways that I can use at home. And if you've felt the same, feel free to leave us a review and spread the word about this series.

I know I've learned a lot, especially all the takeaways that I can use at home. And if you've felt the same, feel free to leave us a review and spread the word about this series.

OK, so today we're exploring secrets, why we keep them, and what are some of the personal and social costs of keeping things tucked away. To tell us all about it, we're joined by Associate Professor Katie Greenaway and Valentina Bianchi. Thank you so much for talking to us today, Katie and Valentina. So before we get into the research you've been doing, can you tell us, if it's not a secret, uh, how and why you decided to do research on secrecy?

OK, so today we're exploring secrets, why we keep them, and what are some of the personal and social costs of keeping things tucked away. To tell us all about it, we're joined by Associate Professor Katie Greenaway and Valentina Bianchi. Thank you so much for talking to us today, Katie and Valentina. So before we get into the research you've been doing, can you tell us, if it's not a secret, uh, how and why you decided to do research on secrecy?

Well, I think, who doesn't want to know about other people's secrets? They're scintillating, fascinating, exciting to hear about. Um, but secrets also tell us something really fundamental about human nature because we're very communicative as a species. We like to talk to other people and share things with other people. So why would we ever want to hold things back in conversation? So the things that we keep to ourselves actually tells us really, uh, quite a bit about what people are like and what they're trying to achieve.

Well, I think, who doesn't want to know about other people's secrets? They're scintillating, fascinating, exciting to hear about. Um, but secrets also tell us something really fundamental about human nature because we're very communicative as a species. We like to talk to other people and share things with other people. So why would we ever want to hold things back in conversation? So the things that we keep to ourselves actually tells us really, uh, quite a bit about what people are like and what they're trying to achieve.

Well, for me, I got very inspired when Kate and I talked about what I could focus my PhD on. And I found this topic particularly appealing because, as Katie was saying, it's quite relatable and it's also very relatable to my work as a clinical psychologist. It helped me have a bit more of a, um, maybe scientific look at how the choices that people make about keeping secrets or sharing secrets have an impact on their well-being as well as perhaps even their psychopathology.

Well, for me, I got very inspired when Kate and I talked about what I could focus my PhD on. And I found this topic particularly appealing because, as Katie was saying, it's quite relatable and it's also very relatable to my work as a clinical psychologist. It helped me have a bit more of a, um, maybe scientific look at how the choices that people make about keeping secrets or sharing secrets have an impact on their well-being as well as perhaps even their psychopathology.

It is such a fascinating area, but is it hard? To research just in terms of people feeling comfortable talking to you about secrets. Do you think, do you think you have a good idea of how many people keep secrets, or do you think some people keep that a secret?

It is such a fascinating area, but is it hard? To research just in terms of people feeling comfortable talking to you about secrets. Do you think, do you think you have a good idea of how many people keep secrets, or do you think some people keep that a secret?

Yeah, it's absolutely. It's a really important question when you're studying these things. How do you get people to tell you about their innermost secrets? Fortunately for us, it turns out that the vast majority of people are keeping a secret at any given time. In fact, 97% of people That's, uh, certainly almost all of us in this room, uh, are keeping a secret right now. And on average people keep between 10 and 13 secrets at any given time. So how we ask about this is not by asking people to divulge the information in their secrets, but we give them, uh, the common secrets questionnaire, which is a validated, um, scientific measure of 38 common things that people keep secret. And we asked them to indicate which of those categories of information they're currently keeping secret from one person, uh, multiple people or even everybody in their lives. So if people listening are interested in finding out how many secrets they're keeping, they can go to keepingsecrets.org and take the common secrets questionnaire themselves.

Yeah, it's absolutely. It's a really important question when you're studying these things. How do you get people to tell you about their innermost secrets? Fortunately for us, it turns out that the vast majority of people are keeping a secret at any given time. In fact, 97% of people That's, uh, certainly almost all of us in this room, uh, are keeping a secret right now. And on average people keep between 10 and 13 secrets at any given time. So how we ask about this is not by asking people to divulge the information in their secrets, but we give them, uh, the common secrets questionnaire, which is a validated, um, scientific measure of 38 common things that people keep secret. And we asked them to indicate which of those categories of information they're currently keeping secret from one person, uh, multiple people or even everybody in their lives. So if people listening are interested in finding out how many secrets they're keeping, they can go to keepingsecrets.org and take the common secrets questionnaire themselves.

And from that, do you have an idea of what types of things people are most likely to keep secret?

And from that, do you have an idea of what types of things people are most likely to keep secret?

Yeah, these 38 common categories, I like to group them into maybe 3 broad different groups. The first is secrets that involve other people or about other people. These could be the classic infidelity or even having extramarital thoughts. Um, it could be having lied to someone or potentially even harming someone, having relationship issues with another person. The second category is pieces of information about ourselves, things like sexual behaviour, a personal history that we don't want others to know about, um, feeling discontented at work or in a physical appearance or in our social relationships, um, mental health or, um, potentially sexual orientation, even our own beliefs or, um, who we intend to vote for. And the third category of secrets, which is a really interesting one, is positive secrets. So these are things that we actually maybe feel quite good about but for various reasons are keeping from other people, um, at this time, they might be, um, an upcoming, uh, uh, pregnancy announcement, um, an intention to propose marriage to someone, a surprise or a piece of good news that we haven't shared with others. So we keep a lot of different things secret from others.

Yeah, these 38 common categories, I like to group them into maybe 3 broad different groups. The first is secrets that involve other people or about other people. These could be the classic infidelity or even having extramarital thoughts. Um, it could be having lied to someone or potentially even harming someone, having relationship issues with another person. The second category is pieces of information about ourselves, things like sexual behaviour, a personal history that we don't want others to know about, um, feeling discontented at work or in a physical appearance or in our social relationships, um, mental health or, um, potentially sexual orientation, even our own beliefs or, um, who we intend to vote for. And the third category of secrets, which is a really interesting one, is positive secrets. So these are things that we actually maybe feel quite good about but for various reasons are keeping from other people, um, at this time, they might be, um, an upcoming, uh, uh, pregnancy announcement, um, an intention to propose marriage to someone, a surprise or a piece of good news that we haven't shared with others. So we keep a lot of different things secret from others.

So we've talked in a different episode of PsychTalks about the mental load, and this seems like a different sort of, uh, mental load. Uh, I, I'm sure it's hard for secret keepers to keep secrets, and I, I don't mean just in terms of the desire to blab to someone else, but does it take some sort of toll on people having to keep it a secret?

So we've talked in a different episode of PsychTalks about the mental load, and this seems like a different sort of, uh, mental load. Uh, I, I'm sure it's hard for secret keepers to keep secrets, and I, I don't mean just in terms of the desire to blab to someone else, but does it take some sort of toll on people having to keep it a secret?

It absolutely does. And what I think is interesting about secrecy is it's not actually the times that we have to hold information back in conversation that's challenging. It's the times when we're alone and we're thinking about that secret and it returns to our mind that's really the thing that we find the most challenging. And this makes sense if you think about it, when we conceal information from other people, those tend to be situations that we plan for, we prepare for, we imagine what we might say, and we maybe come up with strategies to help us navigate that particular conversation.

It absolutely does. And what I think is interesting about secrecy is it's not actually the times that we have to hold information back in conversation that's challenging. It's the times when we're alone and we're thinking about that secret and it returns to our mind that's really the thing that we find the most challenging. And this makes sense if you think about it, when we conceal information from other people, those tend to be situations that we plan for, we prepare for, we imagine what we might say, and we maybe come up with strategies to help us navigate that particular conversation.

But we have many, many other times when we're not talking to other people that our minds are free to think about pretty much anything. And one thing that our minds really seem to return to over and over again is information that we're keeping secret from others. Maybe we're trying to problem solve that, or we're thinking about what that means for us, and this kind of mental toll seems to be what is most burdensome about secrecy.

But we have many, many other times when we're not talking to other people that our minds are free to think about pretty much anything. And one thing that our minds really seem to return to over and over again is information that we're keeping secret from others. Maybe we're trying to problem solve that, or we're thinking about what that means for us, and this kind of mental toll seems to be what is most burdensome about secrecy.

So do we know how often people think about those secrets they've stored away?

So do we know how often people think about those secrets they've stored away?

Yes, much more than they have to conceal those secrets in conversation. It's usually around about, um, at least 2 to 1 or even, um, sometimes 1 to 3 that we would be thinking about our secrets more than needing to conceal those secrets from other people in everyday life.

Yes, much more than they have to conceal those secrets in conversation. It's usually around about, um, at least 2 to 1 or even, um, sometimes 1 to 3 that we would be thinking about our secrets more than needing to conceal those secrets from other people in everyday life.

So do we know how many times people think about their secrets?

So do we know how many times people think about their secrets?

We do, actually. So Katie and I, with, uh, a couple of colleagues of ours, um, Elise and Michael have recently introduced a new way of exploring secrecy in everyday life. So we have found a way of asking people multiple times a day for many days. So sometimes even a week or two weeks, how often they engage in these processes. And what we found was perhaps a bit surprising. People think about the secrets approximately 30 times per week, and only half the times they are required to, uh, conceal their secrets. So what I'm trying to say here is that secrets are much more on our mind than they are on our lips.

We do, actually. So Katie and I, with, uh, a couple of colleagues of ours, um, Elise and Michael have recently introduced a new way of exploring secrecy in everyday life. So we have found a way of asking people multiple times a day for many days. So sometimes even a week or two weeks, how often they engage in these processes. And what we found was perhaps a bit surprising. People think about the secrets approximately 30 times per week, and only half the times they are required to, uh, conceal their secrets. So what I'm trying to say here is that secrets are much more on our mind than they are on our lips.

And it's not just because people can't repress, it's because they're actively thinking about things related to it and maybe solving problems.

And it's not just because people can't repress, it's because they're actively thinking about things related to it and maybe solving problems.

Yeah, and that kind of mental, uh, arithmetic can take a lot of different forms. Sometimes it can be more productive than others. Maybe we're problem solving, maybe we're thinking through different ways that we can reinterpret or think about this information. In fact, what some of our research shows is that people actually quite like thinking about their secrets, which might seem a little bit strange, but this is really important information to us. We tend to engage with thoughts of those secrets more than we suppress thoughts of those secrets. But of course, the more you think about something without coming to a resolution, the more that that information may come to mind over time. And if we start to feel negative about that, if we start to feel like we can't actually see a way through, that tends to be when thinking about secrets takes a toll.

Yeah, and that kind of mental, uh, arithmetic can take a lot of different forms. Sometimes it can be more productive than others. Maybe we're problem solving, maybe we're thinking through different ways that we can reinterpret or think about this information. In fact, what some of our research shows is that people actually quite like thinking about their secrets, which might seem a little bit strange, but this is really important information to us. We tend to engage with thoughts of those secrets more than we suppress thoughts of those secrets. But of course, the more you think about something without coming to a resolution, the more that that information may come to mind over time. And if we start to feel negative about that, if we start to feel like we can't actually see a way through, that tends to be when thinking about secrets takes a toll.

And just thinking about this kind of rumination on the secrets, there's a lot of talk these days about people being their authentic selves. Does keeping secrets mess around with that, in that we can't really be authentic if we're storing away all these things that we can't talk about or thinking about these things that we can't talk about? Does that have a toll on people?

And just thinking about this kind of rumination on the secrets, there's a lot of talk these days about people being their authentic selves. Does keeping secrets mess around with that, in that we can't really be authentic if we're storing away all these things that we can't talk about or thinking about these things that we can't talk about? Does that have a toll on people?

Yeah, absolutely. Actually, that's, uh, only one of the many ways in which secrets can be, uh, harmful for us and taking a toll, both on a personal level and on a relational level. If you think about it, it kind of makes sense, right? Because if you are holding back some information from others, you know that you're concealing a part of you from other people. And in that sense, you're not being your true authentic self. So you, of course, you, you're gonna end up feeling inauthentic. And with that, we'll also go a whole range of other feelings, feeling negative about yourself, for example, low or maybe anxious. And on top of that, as I was mentioning, there are some very important relational costs that come with holding information back. You don't get to get the support from others, you get to end up feeling quite isolated. So yes, authenticity is a cost and there are many other costs associated with secrecy.

Yeah, absolutely. Actually, that's, uh, only one of the many ways in which secrets can be, uh, harmful for us and taking a toll, both on a personal level and on a relational level. If you think about it, it kind of makes sense, right? Because if you are holding back some information from others, you know that you're concealing a part of you from other people. And in that sense, you're not being your true authentic self. So you, of course, you, you're gonna end up feeling inauthentic. And with that, we'll also go a whole range of other feelings, feeling negative about yourself, for example, low or maybe anxious. And on top of that, as I was mentioning, there are some very important relational costs that come with holding information back. You don't get to get the support from others, you get to end up feeling quite isolated. So yes, authenticity is a cost and there are many other costs associated with secrecy.

Are there any other harms of keeping secrets?

Are there any other harms of keeping secrets?

Yeah, we've sort of alluded to the fact that many secrets that we keep, um, involve quite negative information and that goes hand in hand with a variety of, uh, negative emotions that we might experience. You might think that, um, people only ever feel guilt or shame about their secrets, but what our research shows is that people feel a wide variety of emotions about their secrets. Not always negative, sometimes positive, sometimes people might feel relief, for example, that they didn't have to, um, conceal information from others or, uh, sometimes they can actually feel quite relaxed about their secrets when not in a context where they need to divulge that information from others. But of course, the majority of emotions that we feel about negatively toned secrets are negative in nature, things like anxiety, sadness, um, also guilt and shame, but certainly embarrassment, um, and these kinds of negative emotions tend to be more commonly experienced in relation to secrecy than to positive emotions.

Yeah, we've sort of alluded to the fact that many secrets that we keep, um, involve quite negative information and that goes hand in hand with a variety of, uh, negative emotions that we might experience. You might think that, um, people only ever feel guilt or shame about their secrets, but what our research shows is that people feel a wide variety of emotions about their secrets. Not always negative, sometimes positive, sometimes people might feel relief, for example, that they didn't have to, um, conceal information from others or, uh, sometimes they can actually feel quite relaxed about their secrets when not in a context where they need to divulge that information from others. But of course, the majority of emotions that we feel about negatively toned secrets are negative in nature, things like anxiety, sadness, um, also guilt and shame, but certainly embarrassment, um, and these kinds of negative emotions tend to be more commonly experienced in relation to secrecy than to positive emotions.

And are there certain types of secrets that are more harmful than others, um, either in terms of the impact on the person keeping the secret, uh, but also the impact if they were to reveal that secret?

And are there certain types of secrets that are more harmful than others, um, either in terms of the impact on the person keeping the secret, uh, but also the impact if they were to reveal that secret?

Yeah, that's a very great question that I think has been very well addressed by some, uh, research by, uh, Michael Slepian and Alex Koch. Uh, they, um, recently, um, published a paper where they use the, uh, data-driven approach and they examined hundreds of, uh, actually thousands of, uh, real life secrets. And they asked hundreds of people to read them along 3 different dimensions. So we now know that it's a little bit less about the actual, uh, idiosyncratic content of secrets. And it's much more about, uh, this dimension that are then linked to secrets caused and, uh, harm. And these dimensions are 3. So one is how immoral the secret is. So if you think about that, if you consider your secret as highly immoral, you are more likely to experience shame about it. The second, uh, dimension is how relational the secret is. So if a secret is helpful in that you are protecting someone else or protecting your relationship, that's good for you, right? But if on the other hand, you know that this secret is drawing a gap between you and other people, it's going to lead you to feel quite disconnected and socially isolated. And then the third dimension is how much of a clear goal you have about holding these secrets. This is, for example, the case of professional secrets. So if you have a clear goal and objective, then you might feel quite certain about what you're doing there, vice versa, if you don't have that, you're gonna feel quite uncertain and that will lead to psychological harm.

Yeah, that's a very great question that I think has been very well addressed by some, uh, research by, uh, Michael Slepian and Alex Koch. Uh, they, um, recently, um, published a paper where they use the, uh, data-driven approach and they examined hundreds of, uh, actually thousands of, uh, real life secrets. And they asked hundreds of people to read them along 3 different dimensions. So we now know that it's a little bit less about the actual, uh, idiosyncratic content of secrets. And it's much more about, uh, this dimension that are then linked to secrets caused and, uh, harm. And these dimensions are 3. So one is how immoral the secret is. So if you think about that, if you consider your secret as highly immoral, you are more likely to experience shame about it. The second, uh, dimension is how relational the secret is. So if a secret is helpful in that you are protecting someone else or protecting your relationship, that's good for you, right? But if on the other hand, you know that this secret is drawing a gap between you and other people, it's going to lead you to feel quite disconnected and socially isolated. And then the third dimension is how much of a clear goal you have about holding these secrets. This is, for example, the case of professional secrets. So if you have a clear goal and objective, then you might feel quite certain about what you're doing there, vice versa, if you don't have that, you're gonna feel quite uncertain and that will lead to psychological harm.

I think those elements of secrets are really helpful for people to think about the different types of secrets, because I think when we think secrets, we automatically think of bad things that have happened that we're keeping secret, and people wouldn't, you wouldn't want people to know because of the shame or the guilt or the morality that you've mentioned. But, um, not all secrets are bad, and just from my perspective, so when my husband and I got married, it was a secret. We didn't tell anyone. And when we had kids, like many parents, we don't tell anyone that we're pregnant for a while, so they were all associated with very happy, joyous things that we were just keeping secret for certain reasons. But is, is there a different experience of the secret keeper when it's a positive secret, as opposed to a negative or a moral or shameful?

I think those elements of secrets are really helpful for people to think about the different types of secrets, because I think when we think secrets, we automatically think of bad things that have happened that we're keeping secret, and people wouldn't, you wouldn't want people to know because of the shame or the guilt or the morality that you've mentioned. But, um, not all secrets are bad, and just from my perspective, so when my husband and I got married, it was a secret. We didn't tell anyone. And when we had kids, like many parents, we don't tell anyone that we're pregnant for a while, so they were all associated with very happy, joyous things that we were just keeping secret for certain reasons. But is, is there a different experience of the secret keeper when it's a positive secret, as opposed to a negative or a moral or shameful?

There absolutely is, and I think that people can think about this intuitively in their own lives. Certainly positive information that we keep secret, maybe that we're holding back to reveal at the right time or in the right way, we can actually feel quite good about and excited about it, can heighten the anticipation before revealing that to others. So that is what we've found, whereas negatively toned secrets tend to make us feel bad, um, the more that our minds return to them and that we ruminate about them over time. Whereas positive secrets are actually ones that we seem to feel good about, which is kind of ironic when you think about research that shows that sharing positive information with other people is one of the best ways that we can connect with them. In this case, actually keeping positive information secret is one shortcut way to feeling very energised and excited because we're thinking about, um, that information and keeping it to ourselves, maybe feeling a bit more ownership over it or control, um, over it. So that's what we found is the reason that positive secrets seem to be quite energising is because those are secrets that people tend to choose for their own reasons, as opposed to feeling as though they're constrained by the situation or other kinds of reasons that they need to keep the secret. I think that's a good lesson to take away, actually, um, more broadly, even about negative secrets. If we can think about why we're keeping them freely for our own reasons and for our own benefit, that might be a way that we can help to help ourselves feel a little bit better about that.

There absolutely is, and I think that people can think about this intuitively in their own lives. Certainly positive information that we keep secret, maybe that we're holding back to reveal at the right time or in the right way, we can actually feel quite good about and excited about it, can heighten the anticipation before revealing that to others. So that is what we've found, whereas negatively toned secrets tend to make us feel bad, um, the more that our minds return to them and that we ruminate about them over time. Whereas positive secrets are actually ones that we seem to feel good about, which is kind of ironic when you think about research that shows that sharing positive information with other people is one of the best ways that we can connect with them. In this case, actually keeping positive information secret is one shortcut way to feeling very energised and excited because we're thinking about, um, that information and keeping it to ourselves, maybe feeling a bit more ownership over it or control, um, over it. So that's what we found is the reason that positive secrets seem to be quite energising is because those are secrets that people tend to choose for their own reasons, as opposed to feeling as though they're constrained by the situation or other kinds of reasons that they need to keep the secret. I think that's a good lesson to take away, actually, um, more broadly, even about negative secrets. If we can think about why we're keeping them freely for our own reasons and for our own benefit, that might be a way that we can help to help ourselves feel a little bit better about that.

In a similar line of thinking, are there relationship benefits to being the person that other people confide their secrets in?

In a similar line of thinking, are there relationship benefits to being the person that other people confide their secrets in?

Yes, there are benefits and costs. So, um, what we know is, uh, sharing information with others is a way that we can feel closer to those people. Sharing information that other people are not allowed to know is an even better way to feel close to people. We feel like that's a very intimate relationship, that that's a very trusting relationship. The cost comes when we need to keep that secret on behalf of somebody else. So we can have these pros and cons. When someone divulges a secret to us that we need to keep secret, it becomes our secret. So it becomes our mental load and something that we need to work hard to conceal from other people. So, uh, we feel closer to the person, we can also feel a bit more burdened by having that information secret.

Yes, there are benefits and costs. So, um, what we know is, uh, sharing information with others is a way that we can feel closer to those people. Sharing information that other people are not allowed to know is an even better way to feel close to people. We feel like that's a very intimate relationship, that that's a very trusting relationship. The cost comes when we need to keep that secret on behalf of somebody else. So we can have these pros and cons. When someone divulges a secret to us that we need to keep secret, it becomes our secret. So it becomes our mental load and something that we need to work hard to conceal from other people. So, uh, we feel closer to the person, we can also feel a bit more burdened by having that information secret.

Katie, outside of relationship benefits, are there other benefits to keeping a secret. And so I'm coming from the world of applied psychology, I think of a story a few years ago where Chris Hemsworth was in an ad, it was touted as this, it was gonna be this new movie, this new Crocodile Dundee movie. Turned out it was gonna be an ad for Tourism Australia. It was released in the Super Bowl. But so many people in the industry had to keep that secret for it to work. And I think there was this real kind of, that feeling of being in on something. and if it had leaked, it wouldn't have worked. It would have ruined the surprise. So are there other benefits like that that can be a motivator to keep secrets?

Katie, outside of relationship benefits, are there other benefits to keeping a secret. And so I'm coming from the world of applied psychology, I think of a story a few years ago where Chris Hemsworth was in an ad, it was touted as this, it was gonna be this new movie, this new Crocodile Dundee movie. Turned out it was gonna be an ad for Tourism Australia. It was released in the Super Bowl. But so many people in the industry had to keep that secret for it to work. And I think there was this real kind of, that feeling of being in on something. and if it had leaked, it wouldn't have worked. It would have ruined the surprise. So are there other benefits like that that can be a motivator to keep secrets?

Absolutely. And this really gets into the territory of group secrets or potentially even organisational secrets. And it's not just about having a good relationship with the person that you're keeping information secret for, it's also having a stronger relationship with people who are keeping that secret with you. So, if many people are keeping that secret and keeping that secret successfully, which is probably an important part to this, then, uh, what we've found is that that tends to make people feel more identified with other people in their group or feel closer to other people who are also successfully enacting that secrecy intention.

Absolutely. And this really gets into the territory of group secrets or potentially even organisational secrets. And it's not just about having a good relationship with the person that you're keeping information secret for, it's also having a stronger relationship with people who are keeping that secret with you. So, if many people are keeping that secret and keeping that secret successfully, which is probably an important part to this, then, uh, what we've found is that that tends to make people feel more identified with other people in their group or feel closer to other people who are also successfully enacting that secrecy intention.

Like the secret professor handshake

Like the secret professor handshake

Yeah, we're not allowed to talk about that.

Yeah, we're not allowed to talk about that.

So Katie, are there certain types of people who are more likely to be selected as the secret keeper? So do we look for certain personality traits, or is it more about the relationship elements that we have with those people? What do we look for when we're selecting our secret keepers?

So Katie, are there certain types of people who are more likely to be selected as the secret keeper? So do we look for certain personality traits, or is it more about the relationship elements that we have with those people? What do we look for when we're selecting our secret keepers?

It can be both, um, so certainly we look for people who we tend to be closer to. Those are people that we divulge information to. But there are certain personality traits that we look for in people that we want to confide in. The first is that we're looking for someone empathetic, um, and compassionate, who's going to maybe validate our feelings or be able to give us emotional support. The second type of person we look for is someone who's assertive. So this is someone who's going to maybe help us think through the secret in a way that we haven't thought about before or maybe even decide what to do about that secret and it's really going to push us to do something about it. The kinds of people we don't confide in are talkative people, someone who's maybe in danger of spreading that information far and wide. And also polite people. So these are people who might say something nice to your face about, um, the situation or the secret that you have, but who perhaps underneath doesn't really, um, uh, empathise with you to the degree that maybe a compassionate person would.

It can be both, um, so certainly we look for people who we tend to be closer to. Those are people that we divulge information to. But there are certain personality traits that we look for in people that we want to confide in. The first is that we're looking for someone empathetic, um, and compassionate, who's going to maybe validate our feelings or be able to give us emotional support. The second type of person we look for is someone who's assertive. So this is someone who's going to maybe help us think through the secret in a way that we haven't thought about before or maybe even decide what to do about that secret and it's really going to push us to do something about it. The kinds of people we don't confide in are talkative people, someone who's maybe in danger of spreading that information far and wide. And also polite people. So these are people who might say something nice to your face about, um, the situation or the secret that you have, but who perhaps underneath doesn't really, um, uh, empathise with you to the degree that maybe a compassionate person would.

And how about the personality of secrecy researchers? Is there anything special about the personality of you folk who study these things?

And how about the personality of secrecy researchers? Is there anything special about the personality of you folk who study these things?

Sticky beaks, I think.

Sticky beaks, I think.

Absolutely. Very curious people.

Absolutely. Very curious people.

There's that old adage that we study what we Feel right? that you're studying secrets because you like secrets?

There's that old adage that we study what we Feel right? that you're studying secrets because you like secrets?

Yeah, research is "me-search." I don't know how many secrets are you keeping though?

Yeah, research is "me-search." I don't know how many secrets are you keeping though?

Too many.

Too many.

And yet you seem so authentic. So if our listeners are sitting there feeling burdened by a secret they're keeping, what tips do you have for them in terms of how to manage?

And yet you seem so authentic. So if our listeners are sitting there feeling burdened by a secret they're keeping, what tips do you have for them in terms of how to manage?

Well, that would depend on what is creating that burden, right? So if it's more about, um, that secrets popping into their mind time and time and time again. You would want to use perhaps more cognitive strategies. So for instance, you might want to, uh, think again about those three dimensions I was mentioning before, and have a think about whether keeping that secret is, um, helpful for a relationship or perhaps helpful for a specific goal, or maybe OK to be kept secret because it's not really a problem. It's not immoral to keep that secret. So I guess what I'm suggesting here is to try and, um, reconsider or reappraise the reason why or the, um, the goal for you to keep that secret. If instead, the problem is about concealing the secret and not knowing how to do that, then there are a whole range of strategies to support you with making a decision about how to, um, yeah, keep that secret back from others. And of course, then there is a last, um, opportunity to consider, which is maybe revealing or sharing that secret.

Well, that would depend on what is creating that burden, right? So if it's more about, um, that secrets popping into their mind time and time and time again. You would want to use perhaps more cognitive strategies. So for instance, you might want to, uh, think again about those three dimensions I was mentioning before, and have a think about whether keeping that secret is, um, helpful for a relationship or perhaps helpful for a specific goal, or maybe OK to be kept secret because it's not really a problem. It's not immoral to keep that secret. So I guess what I'm suggesting here is to try and, um, reconsider or reappraise the reason why or the, um, the goal for you to keep that secret. If instead, the problem is about concealing the secret and not knowing how to do that, then there are a whole range of strategies to support you with making a decision about how to, um, yeah, keep that secret back from others. And of course, then there is a last, um, opportunity to consider, which is maybe revealing or sharing that secret.

That's fascinating because there was some old work by James Pennebaker, I remember who gave the impression that if just you disclosed some secret, there'd be all sorts of well-being benefits, but you're saying it's a bit more complicated than that.

That's fascinating because there was some old work by James Pennebaker, I remember who gave the impression that if just you disclosed some secret, there'd be all sorts of well-being benefits, but you're saying it's a bit more complicated than that.

Yeah, absolutely. Because again, linking to what Katie was mentioning before, you want to be very, very cautious of who you're sharing that information with, right? So that information is perhaps completely OK to keep secret because it has a benefit to do that. And vice versa, if you want to consider sharing that information, you want to be very careful about who you do it with, uh, what your purpose is. And, um, one of the interesting aspects that, um, Jess Salerno and Michael Slepian found is that if you share that information with someone who has a different moral stance from you, it might backfire and they might just try to punish you by releasing that information on to others.

Yeah, absolutely. Because again, linking to what Katie was mentioning before, you want to be very, very cautious of who you're sharing that information with, right? So that information is perhaps completely OK to keep secret because it has a benefit to do that. And vice versa, if you want to consider sharing that information, you want to be very careful about who you do it with, uh, what your purpose is. And, um, one of the interesting aspects that, um, Jess Salerno and Michael Slepian found is that if you share that information with someone who has a different moral stance from you, it might backfire and they might just try to punish you by releasing that information on to others.

We've talked about if if someone's burdened by a secret that they're keeping, and you've sort of touched on this a little in that answer, but if someone's got some knowledge or behaviour and is feeling burdened by that and wants to share it, but obviously, there's a risk in sharing sensitive information, what's the trade-off in terms of thinking about the pros and cons of revealing a secret to someone else from the, from the perspective of the person with that information? Does it help them or hurt them to share that Information?

We've talked about if if someone's burdened by a secret that they're keeping, and you've sort of touched on this a little in that answer, but if someone's got some knowledge or behaviour and is feeling burdened by that and wants to share it, but obviously, there's a risk in sharing sensitive information, what's the trade-off in terms of thinking about the pros and cons of revealing a secret to someone else from the, from the perspective of the person with that information? Does it help them or hurt them to share that Information?

Yeah, so that really would depend, right? Because again, uh, that might have some significant cost for your, uh, psychological well-being, but also some, uh, significant advantages. Um, so it's really the matter of weighing pros and cons, both for yourself and for your relationships, as well as perhaps for your ultimate goals, maybe professional.

Yeah, so that really would depend, right? Because again, uh, that might have some significant cost for your, uh, psychological well-being, but also some, uh, significant advantages. Um, so it's really the matter of weighing pros and cons, both for yourself and for your relationships, as well as perhaps for your ultimate goals, maybe professional.

So Valentina, as you said, you're a clinical psychologist, how does secrecy figure in your own work? I mean, I know. Uh, often clients, patients will be keeping secrets from their therapist at the start, and there are probably some things you have to keep secret from them as well. How does this all play out in the clinic?

So Valentina, as you said, you're a clinical psychologist, how does secrecy figure in your own work? I mean, I know. Uh, often clients, patients will be keeping secrets from their therapist at the start, and there are probably some things you have to keep secret from them as well. How does this all play out in the clinic?

Yeah, absolutely. So it's a quite fascinating dynamic, I think, building a rapport with a client, gaining that trust, and, uh, also showing compassion. I think it's, uh, very crucial to make people comfortable enough to open up. Uh, in fact, I've incorporated in my clinical practice now, now at the beginning of, uh, my initial sessions, uh, a very clear overt expectations that people will not maybe feel comfortable opening up immediately about maybe the true reasons why they are seeking out my support, and that's completely OK. And I think that approach is really helpful in letting the anxiety go down, letting uh the client um sit with their own information and make a um paced decision about when and if they're comfortable enough with opening up with me. And then as you touched on, on the other side, unfortunately, I do have to keep a lot of personal information secret, uh, and confidential, and that can be quite burdening for clinical psychologists in general. So we have structures in place, like, for example, um, peer supervisions and group supervisions. But that can really be, uh, one of the things that takes a toll on, um, clinical psychologists and also other professions. For example, lawyers, doctors, and so on. So something to keep in mind in terms of, um, professional well-being as well.

Yeah, absolutely. So it's a quite fascinating dynamic, I think, building a rapport with a client, gaining that trust, and, uh, also showing compassion. I think it's, uh, very crucial to make people comfortable enough to open up. Uh, in fact, I've incorporated in my clinical practice now, now at the beginning of, uh, my initial sessions, uh, a very clear overt expectations that people will not maybe feel comfortable opening up immediately about maybe the true reasons why they are seeking out my support, and that's completely OK. And I think that approach is really helpful in letting the anxiety go down, letting uh the client um sit with their own information and make a um paced decision about when and if they're comfortable enough with opening up with me. And then as you touched on, on the other side, unfortunately, I do have to keep a lot of personal information secret, uh, and confidential, and that can be quite burdening for clinical psychologists in general. So we have structures in place, like, for example, um, peer supervisions and group supervisions. But that can really be, uh, one of the things that takes a toll on, um, clinical psychologists and also other professions. For example, lawyers, doctors, and so on. So something to keep in mind in terms of, um, professional well-being as well.

So I mean this is really interesting because there is social pressure to reciprocate disclosure, right? And so if you're in a clinic setting and uh your patient is disclosing all sorts of things to you, it must be hard not to do somewhat similar to them.

So I mean this is really interesting because there is social pressure to reciprocate disclosure, right? And so if you're in a clinic setting and uh your patient is disclosing all sorts of things to you, it must be hard not to do somewhat similar to them.

Yeah, absolutely. So, very recently, for instance, I've had situations where people have opened up about, uh, having lost people in their life. And, uh, I also have lost someone recently in my life. And unfortunately, it's just, perhaps the, the information cannot be shared. But the compassion and the emotional understanding can definitely support people in creating that connection with their clients. So perhaps the way I think about it and, uh, make peace with it is that I'm supporting them, even though I don't share as much of my information. I support them through my heart and through my compassion.

Yeah, absolutely. So, very recently, for instance, I've had situations where people have opened up about, uh, having lost people in their life. And, uh, I also have lost someone recently in my life. And unfortunately, it's just, perhaps the, the information cannot be shared. But the compassion and the emotional understanding can definitely support people in creating that connection with their clients. So perhaps the way I think about it and, uh, make peace with it is that I'm supporting them, even though I don't share as much of my information. I support them through my heart and through my compassion.

And at a really big abstract level, is mental health all about having no secrets at all? What's the goal for treatment?

And at a really big abstract level, is mental health all about having no secrets at all? What's the goal for treatment?

Look, I definitely wouldn't say that. And that's because realistically, um, sometimes it's the best thing to keep a secret. For instance, I'm talking about maybe, uh, personal information or family secrets that are best kept because they would have such a huge repercussion on people's life, on people's, uh, relationships, on people's ability to, for example, to work in certain environments. So what I'm saying here is that disclosure is not always the best choice.

Look, I definitely wouldn't say that. And that's because realistically, um, sometimes it's the best thing to keep a secret. For instance, I'm talking about maybe, uh, personal information or family secrets that are best kept because they would have such a huge repercussion on people's life, on people's, uh, relationships, on people's ability to, for example, to work in certain environments. So what I'm saying here is that disclosure is not always the best choice.

Yeah, it's not our business as researchers or clinicians to tell people they should never keep any secrets. We're more in the business of helping them understand what are the pros and cons of doing that and how can they best keep a secret if that's the right thing for them.

Yeah, it's not our business as researchers or clinicians to tell people they should never keep any secrets. We're more in the business of helping them understand what are the pros and cons of doing that and how can they best keep a secret if that's the right thing for them.

That's OK. Uh, the thing to look out for is when the secret's weighing on us, uh, more than usual or causing us harm in our daily life, and I think our listeners will be very grateful for all these insights and advice. Thanks for joining us on PsychTalks.

That's OK. Uh, the thing to look out for is when the secret's weighing on us, uh, more than usual or causing us harm in our daily life, and I think our listeners will be very grateful for all these insights and advice. Thanks for joining us on PsychTalks.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Nick, can you believe it? That was the last episode of the series.

Nick, can you believe it? That was the last episode of the series.

Hard to believe, Cassie, but it's been a real pleasure.

Hard to believe, Cassie, but it's been a real pleasure.

It really has, and for anyone who wants to listen to any of our other episodes, you can find them in the back catalogue of your podcast app. You've been listening to PsychTalks with me, Cassie Hayward, and Nick Haslam. We'd like to thank our guests for today, Associate Professor Katie Greenaway and Valentina Bianchi. This episode was produced by Carly Godden with production assistance from Mairead Murray and Gemma Papprill. Our sound engineer was Jack Palmer.

It really has, and for anyone who wants to listen to any of our other episodes, you can find them in the back catalogue of your podcast app. You've been listening to PsychTalks with me, Cassie Hayward, and Nick Haslam. We'd like to thank our guests for today, Associate Professor Katie Greenaway and Valentina Bianchi. This episode was produced by Carly Godden with production assistance from Mairead Murray and Gemma Papprill. Our sound engineer was Jack Palmer.