Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the show where we talk about all things drugs. But any views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media, Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, as an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not even represent my own. And nothing contained in this show should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use any type of drug. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today's episode is a really special treat for me because it's quite personal in a way. I mean, first because it involves in New York, which is where I was born and where I live, And it also involves work that I've been involved in for many decades, finally coming to a beautiful fruition just a few months ago. I've been involved one way or another in the effort to legalize marijuana, first for medical purposes, then for all at outs for many decades, and it's been a major priority of the Drug Policy Alliance or d p A, which is the organization I founded. Also, my guest today is Melissa Moore, who came to work for me at Drug Policy Alliance a number of years ago and who has been the director of d p a's efforts specifically in New York City and New York State in recent years. She's really the one who spearheaded the effort in New York to legalize marijuana earlier this spring, and I have to say it's a major breakthrough, you know. I mean, New York is maybe the fifteen state or so to legalize marijuana, but it now represents the gold standard for how to do this right because they learned the lessons from around the country and how to regulate the industry more properly, how to keep big industry at bay, how to incorporate social and racial equity provisions that actually could be effective and effectively imp meant it. So we're gonna hear from Melissa about how and why this victory in New York UH proved so momentous, and we'll also talk a bit about what another New York politician, Chuck Schumer, who's the Senate majority leader in Washington, is doing UH to try to legalize marijuana at the national level. So Melissa, thank you so much, um, you know, for coming on the show and for talking to us about this. Absolutely, thank you so much for having me. I think back about our work in New York and it really dates back to the late nineties, and we worked on these hosts of other issues, reforming the draconian Rockefeller drug laws, which had very little to do with marijuana, and a whole bunch of other issues, needle exchange, overdose treatment, what have you, uh, and then medical marijuana and now marijuana legalization. And so the first question I want to ask you is, so, why did New York finally do it now? I mean, Color one, Washington led the way back in New York is like theft or sixteenth State. But why now, you know. I think there are a lot of different factors that have led to this culmination of finally being able to pass through comprehensive marijuana legalization and reform in New York. The excesses of the enforcement and criminalization under prohibition, the way that there have been extreme racial disparities in the way that enforcement has been carried out all across the state, the absolute lack of, you know, anything beneficial that can be pointed to out of that, but the huge detrimental effects that that's had all across the state of New York. And now there's been this growing tide of other states that have legalized through ballot initiatives, especially our neighbors here, you know, with Massachusetts having gone a couple of years before us and then New Jersey. I think that gave an additional push. I mean the fact that there has been such a huge amount of momentum around legalization, public opinion in New York supporting it by a two to margin for so many years now, and actually in the more recent polls, there was a poll showing that actually a majority of Republican voters in New York also support legalization. So we're at a point when there's just such a preponderance of of support for it that it was more a question of like what the how would be as opposed to whether or not on the merits of legalization New York could move um, So it was a matter of crafting bill right. Well, you know, I'm thinking back, right, there were two elements of marijuana reform that drop policy Line spent a huge amount of time on. Right. The first was the issue around legalizing marijuana for medical purposes, where New York took quite a while um and then had a work really turning a bad law into a much better one. And the second was the issue around these racially disproportioned at marijuana rests, which just when crazy under former mayors Julianni and Bloomberg. So, talking first of all about the marijuana rest one, tell our listeners a bit more about that whole effort and how it played in, you know, to the success of legalization. And recently so it's been along the case that there has been just rampant racial disparities in the way that marijuana prohibition has been enforced across New York State, and this is true of the rest of the country as well. But when we look back to, you know, the foundations of these laws, it was really looking at what are different mechanisms of control and we saw that really distinctly in New York where even after the nineteen seventies seven decriminalization law was passed, well, actually, let me just interject for a second, right theory just or listener to understand. Back in the seventies there was this wave of marijuana liberalization and decriminalization, and eleven states voted through the legislative process, no ballot and issues were involved to decriminalize the possession of small amounts of marijuana, either at home or in your pocket, and New York was one of those. In New York, in fact, did decriminalize marijuana back then in the mid seventies, as did California. Marijuana arrest dropped dramatically at that time, but then they began to reep up during the eighties and into the nineties to the point where we had what was it, fifty thousand people getting arrested each year from marijuana possession, overwhelmingly young, black and brown main that's exactly right. Yeah, So we went from a period right after the law was passed where there were like two thousand, three thousand arrests total across the entire state for low level cannabis possession, and then you enter into the stopping frisk era and broken windows policing, and that's skyrockets then, so that by we're at a point where they're fifty thousand arrest just in New York City alone for low level cannabis possession, and the vast majority of those were the result of unconstitutional stop and frisk interactions where because of a loophole in the nineteen seventi seven decriminalization law. If cannabis was in private possession or private view, it was a violation if it was in public view. So if somebody was following the instructions of an officer who said, hey, empty your pockets or open up your book bag, suddenly that would put the cannabis into public view and make it a misdemeanor arrest. So so basically you're saying the cops were engaging in a subterfuge, right, they knew that so long as marijuana was in your pocket, they couldn't arrest you. At best, they could give you a fine, and they weren't going to see it anyway. But when they're doing this aggressive stop and frisk all around the city, targeted young black and brown man, when they're incentivized to arrest lots of people, they basically say, hey, did you mind if I put my hands in your pocket? And the kids scared and he said okay, and outcomes to marijuana, and in that process it goes from being a non arrestible in fraction to now being in public view and therefore you know something they can be arrested for. That's right, that's a misdemeanor arrest and that's what we saw over and over again with you know, the enforcement demographics not at all being representative of the actual demographics of people who use cannabis across New York, which we know from Department of Health data and other government data to be pretty equal generally speaking across you know, different age ranges and ethnic and racial groups. But when we look at the enforcement for cannabis and especially low level arrests, like we were just talking about, where it's really about, you know, a cop rolling up on somebody is saying, hey, emptier pockets within these unconstitutional stops and searches, that's where we get, you know, eighty six percent, eighty seven percent of the arrest being primarily black and Latin X New Yorkers, and primarily young people, you know, the vast majority of those being people under twenty five years old, when folks are at a really crucial point in their lives, when you know, they're trying to figure out what their career trajectory is going to be, determining if they're going to be able to pursue higher education, and so many of those opportunities were blocked off for people because of criminalization. So it's certainly about the overall scope of arrests, which is harrowing. You know, at eight hundred thousand instances of low level cannabis possession being arrested over you know, just the last twenty five years alone. But then when you look at the ripple effects and the huge devastating lifelong consequences for people beyond just that arrest moment into the entirety of the rest of their lives, that's also what we have to contend with in New York. So, I mean, Melissa, what I recall from those days is that initially, lots of people, including me, it just assumed it was you know, guys, young guys out there smoking a joint in public and getting caught for smoking weed in public. But it wasn't. Most of it was to stop and frisk. And the other thing that lots of people assumed was workdamn. I mean, black kids must smoke more weed than white kids. But in fact, all the evidence showed that if you were to randomly stop a hundred black kids under brown kids that are white kids in almost any city in America, virtually the same percent of them would have marijuana in their pocket. Um. But in every city and state in America, the black kids were two to ten times more likely to get busted than the white kids. Now, it took a little while for this to mature as a racial justice issue, but I think it did eventually take off, right, that's right. And you know, the data that we have from the Department of Health in New York City in particular, shows that young white people in New York City actually use cannabis at like significantly higher rate than black and Latin X young people in the city. And yet what we see is the enforcement is pretty much the exact inverse of that, UM. And that really comes down to exactly what you're talking about is just how do we actually approach this issue entirely? And so we have to delve in and look more deeply at you know, why is it then that only certain populations of kids and you know we're talking about kids, but you know across adult populations too, Why is this enforcement so laser targeted in these ways? Um, and really changing the conversation to be focused around those pillars of racial and economic justice, which we can get into more as well. I think was you know, a real turning point in terms of how the conversation around legalization was shaped in New York, but then also for the rest of the country as well well. I mean the truth is, you know, when the Blasio became mayor of New York about seven years ago, he was attuned to this issue, but not bold. I mean, the really atrocious stuff happened I think beginning under Giuliani, because it was a period where arrest for crack and harrow when we're declining, and the cops were eager to be out there and they were incentivized to make arrest. For senior police management, it was a good management technique because that they knew that if they had cops busting kids for weed, they knew they weren't just sitting in a car eating a donut or screwing off and on the street level police guy, I mean, for them, it was a lot easier to just bust some kid for weed than it was to be dealing with a homeless person or domestic disturbance, somebody's going to puke in their car, I mean, all this sort of stuff. So everything sort of came together Juliani. You know, in two thousand, before nine eleven, I think there were sixty marijuana possession arrests. And then Bloomberg comes in, you know, new police chief, but does the same thing, and he stands by it year after year after year. And when then do Blasio comes in, he's under pressure from the progressive community to pull back, but not as far as he should have. Yeah, exactly. I mean even under the de Blasio years, the racial disparities remained pretty much the same at those extreme levels for black and Latin next New Yorkers. Right, although the total numbers of arrests are coming down dramatically, total numbers of arrests had dropped. So you're going from fifty sixty thousand arrest of the year down to twenty thousand, down to ten thousand. I mean last year it was down to a few thousand or so. Last year it was actually under a thousand for New York City, under a thousand. So it had come down. The total number of rests had come down, but was galling. Is that the racial disparity just persists. But what it meant though was that as you're moving towards legalization, it meant that there was going to be a growing coalition who was going to be supportive of legalizing but also very clear that there had to be a racial justice component to this. Right, that's right, and I think it really kind of helped frame the conversation, and that the pivot away from legalization to just like, oh, well, we don't have to go that far. We can just decriminalize, like we shouldn't rush to legalize, just didn't hold water in New York. You know, we've tried that since nineteen seven, and we ended up with eight hundred thousand arrests for low level cannabis possession. So, I mean, just patently in New York, decriminalization for cannabis as opposed to legalization was no longer acceptable. And I think the other piece of that also was, as we were talking about before, all the other impacts within people's lives, they don't get relief from just decriminalization in the same way that you can under legalization. We're actually removing these things from the criminal penal code, and that's what's required in order to deal with a lot of you know, the housing, the employment, the child wealth, our consequences, the immigration consequences. You know. I'm thinking also that when you go back to the first successful marijuana legalization initiatives UM in Colorado, and Washington back in two and in Oregon and Alaska. Those were places where the percent of the population that's black is very small, these western states, and the racial justice issue was out and about there. But we also knew that it was not going to be a winning issue on a ballot an issue you have to appeal to the center who were not going to care about these issues. And so my sense was that if we were going to prevailed, the racial justice issue was gonna move forward, it was gonna have to be not through the ballot initiative process, but once we got to state legislative reform, where black and Latino caucus is an activism can make a difference. The one big exception to that, of course, was the other ballot initiative on marijuana quasi legalization in d C. Because that's the city that's fift black. It was also a particular challenge because when we started out, the white population of DC was two to one in favor, but the black population was majority against. And I remember in that campaign we poured a lot of resources and made sure the leadership of that campaign was black, and in fact, by the time we finally want it, you know, in November, it didn't actually legalize over the counter sale, but almost everything else. In fact, we had moved that population substantially. Now in New York, there was a really activist community around this stuff. And so you know, when people talk about what's so special about New York's legisl aation, why don't we just get into that right now? One of the things, not the only thing. One of the things is that it appears to really break substantial new ground when it comes to issues of addressing you know, the racist origins of the drug war, the racial disproportionality arrests. Just explain more about what makes New York so special in that regard. Yeah, absolutely, New York is I think charting a pretty exciting new terrain in terms of what can be encompassed within legalization. And you know, that's been part of the bill for quite a while now, and I think is one of the reasons why, you know, along with the conversations around just the extreme disparities that we've seen in enforcement, really talking about this as a through line that we weren't just going to, you know, turn the page and act as though those you know, extreme targeted arrests had not taken place, and that there wasn't ongoing generational impact from that, And so part of the Marijuana Regulation and Taxation Act which passed in New York was inclusive of actual restitution to the community is that have been the most harmed, a significant portion of the cannabis tax revenue being reinvested back into those communities. So New York is not the first state to talk about integrating racial justice in I mean, we made an effort in California sixteen I know, the Illinois law that pass as a racial justice piece. The governor of New Jersey, Governor Murphy, is very strongly supportive of that. In Massachusetts got a piece of this, But what I generally hear from those states is that it hasn't been all that effective. But there's things about New York which suggests that you guys have actually found out a formula for really making that work. Yeah. So in New York, you know, even just within the legacy market, you know, as things are right now unregulated, it's about a three billion dollar industry. And so the initial projections for you know, the early days of setting up the program are around three d and fifty million dollars into the state coffers each year. Escalating up to over five billion dollars as we get in some of the out years, So huge buckets of money that we're talking about here. You know, given the scope of harm that was done under the marijuana a rest crusade, We've always been really clear that, you know, we can't just say oh, sorry, are bad and like move forward into legalization as though we didn't actually have to have some sort of mechanism to at least make an attempt to repair that harm. You're not gonna be able to, you know, go back and change those years of somebody's life when they had a criminal record for cannabis or when you know their child had been taken away because of just allegations of use. But you can have restitution. And so of the cannabis tax revenue that goes into New York State will go into the Community Grants Reinvestment fund that will be available for entities that are doing work within communities that have been harmed by the War on drugs, for populations that have been directly impacted by criminalization. So give me an example, like what kinds of programs will will benefit from this? Right? So this could be like youth after school programs, it could be re entry services for people who are exiting incarceration. It could be job training, um. But it really you know, even much more broad than that. It can be childcare, it could be nutritional services. And is there a way to make sure this is going to be supplemental over and above the existing funding for this, right exactly. So there's maintenance of effort language, which is the technical um bit that basically says this can't supplant other budgeted amounts. And that's also true for the component of the tax revenue that will go for public schools in New York. Um, so it'll be a boon for New York State schools as well, and then also to drug treatment and education programs with a real focus on harm reduction. But then there's a social equity side and the business piece of it, right, And I want to be you know, really clear again on that distinction, because not everybody who's been harmed, not every single person is going to want a cannabis business, but that doesn't necessarily cover all of the rest of it. And when there were so many people impacted in New York, we had to be really clear about the community reinvestment piece. But when we turn to the business side of things. You know. One of the things that's been so difficult for you know, the sort of fledgling programs in other states has been the fact that there's just such a lack of access to capital because of federal prohibition. It's really difficult for people to be able to get seed money, you know, even if they've gotten a social equity priority license. In same Massachusetts, just the fact that there isn't really the same mechanism to be able to access a small business loan or other sort of lending options that are available if somebody is starting up like an ice cream shop for example. Um, that's been a real problem. And so in New York, within the Marijuana Regulation and Taxation Act, the sponsors were really really clear about needing provisions like the incubator program that would actually be able to provide low and zero interest loans from the outset of the program, so that the social equity applicants would be able to have access to lending as well as technical assistants in legal counsel, anticipating some of the same sort of roadblocks and hurdles that we've seen in other states. So it means it if a young black man who's been busted for selling weed. Does it actually help him in applying for something the fact that he was busted for selling weed. Yeah, So people who have been directly impacted for cannabis can apply under social equity status um, and there's a prioritization for people who themselves have been directly criminalized, and for people who have a family member, loved one, or had a parent, and then for people from communities. It's kind of like different tiers. You realize what a what a big switch that is. I mean, from the early years of some of the legalization efforts, actually, one of the provisions that had to be in there to reassure people was that people who have been busted before could not apply, and now, in fact New York is going to give them a preference, which I think is just a wonderful development. Yeah, we really turned it on its head entirely. And that was even a provision within the medical marijuana bill in New York that we certainly were not pleased about whatsoever. You know. I have to say also, like for people who get their backs up when they hear the phrase restitution, I mean, the bottom line is it's not just that you had the racial disproportionality in the way that these marijuana laws were enforced in New York, you know, for so many years, her so many people. But I tend to think about it also as restitution for the broader drug war in New York. Because it's not as if we're going to be legalizing heroin or cocaine and getting tax revenue from that anytime soon, if ever. But the number of people who were selling small amounts of heroin or cocaine and landing up in prison for five and ten and twenty years and also hundreds of thousands of people. So to me, the notion of applying tax revenue from a drug that was illegal and that's now legal, and making sure a significant disproportionate amount of that tax revenue goes individuals and communities that were most reamed out by the drug war, not not just about marijuana. I mean, I think it's kind of a great moral good and a great moral guidance optimistic this can actually work this time in New York. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot is going to come down to implementation. You know what the accountability in the oversight is for these provisions that are in there. There's a chief equity officer. And you know also, you know, having license categories in New York like operatives and on site consumption, both of which you know, we haven't really seen in other states, and you know, certainly provide fantastic entry points for people who don't in and of themselves independently have huge amounts of capital. Are you know, really exciting to think about. But I think, you know, going back to your point around the restitution in the community reinvestment piece, it wasn't just a matter of the instance of an arrest that has had an impact on people. There's also been generational economic harm from that, you know. The New York City Controller Scott Stringer, a couple of years ago did an analysis looking at the neighborhoods that had the highest marijuana arrest rates and then what the economic indicators were, and he found that seven out of the ten neighborhoods with the most dire marijuana arrest rates also had the absolute lowest economic indicators in the city. And that's you know, it's a correlation, is not a causation, but it certainly compounds what we see. And then we redid that analysis a couple of months ago. UM for areas outside of New York City as well, and it was pretty much the same thing that areas with highest marijuana arrest rates had some of the highest economic vulnerability, um, the highest need for people to be able to access like nutritional supplements like snap and other things that are really um, you know, a sign of the fact that people need additional supports, and also had some of the highest COVID positivity rates. And so as we're looking at that data, it just really showed that the structural factors that were at play, the structural racism, structural inequity that's woven into so many parts of our society, was showing up in cannabis enforcement, and that we could really take that as a microcosm both on the negative side of just looking at this as a case study of how enforcement was unparalleled in its racial disparities, but then also moving forward into fixing it. We'll be talking more after we hear this ad. You know, New York is not like California or Colorado, where replaces that already had a huge both illicit marijuana industry and a huge medical marijuana industry. It's not like we're huge growers the way that California's or some western states are. And there was an emerging medical marijuana market over the last few years, but it's not going back twenty years. It's more going back a few years now. I know that you have put provisions in this, some of which are intended not just on racial equity, but also to help small growers, small farmers, small entrepreneurs. You managed to get a law through here that's going to keep the big guys from getting too big. Can you just say a bit about the provisions and also what it was like managing all the for profit players as they try to pursue their own narrower interests. Yeah, you know, really important guardrails that were included within the Marijuana Regulation and Taxation Act. This is working really closely with the Assembly majority leader of Crystal People's Stokes Senator Liz Krueger, who are the bill sponsors who are really attuned to this. You know, had seen the way in which medical marijuana program had been implemented in New York State, the fact that you know, it's basically an oligopoly that was set up, you know, in the way that the governor swooped in at the last minute and changed a lot of the provisions UM very differently from what the campaign had been putting forward under the Compassionate Care Act for New York. But nonetheless, you know, we we had that very recent example UM that people were looking at and you know, they they really determined we want to make sure that they were going to be multiple entry points UM for people who have been directly impacted, but also people from all across the state to be able to really make a go of it within this industry, you know, and that means family farmers, that means you know, people who want to have uh, you know, a small business where you know, maybe they're you know, processing. UM. There's a micro business license which will allow especially folks from the current you know, legacy or underground economy to be able to plug into the regulated space and make that transition or bridge over. And that's incredibly important, you know, you talk about you know, New York is not one of the largest cultivators in the country, but we do have the largest current market despite the fact that it's all underground, and there also is a big I mean, there's a huge number of New Yorkers involved in agriculture right exactly, So there's gotta be a lot of farmers and others who are looking at this thing and saying, maybe there's an opportunity in it for me, And it's not necessarily the case. It only the big guys are gonna be able to come in here and take this thing over from the get go. That's exactly right. I mean, we don't want a situation where we're gonna have just Walmart weed, you know, like we want to have craft production. We want to have this be something that is able to you know, be a buttress for family farmers who have been facing you know, just years and years of devastating Floria dropouts in terms of the crop prices and getting a homegrow provision within the building that's crucially important. You know. Sometimes people in the industry they get so greedy and they want to they want to put in the law that people are not allowed to grow three or five or ten of their own plans, like even the alcohol, and just doesn't want to put in there that you can't make your own beer or a little booze at home. And for many people they forget that marijuana. I mean, there's a kind of intimacy of growing marijuana where people want to grow their own and it's a very personal thing. I sometimes look at some of the marijuana growers and I see their connection to the plant being almost analogous to this kind of sensual sort of freedom dimension of gun owners to their guns. You know that that that they're just it's it's a visceral sort of thing, you know. And I know in almost every state that Moosard's legalization, there's been a debate about what's called vertical integration, basically the extent to which any business can be vertically integrated in terms of being involved in the production of the product and the distribution of it and even the retail sale. Now, I know, what you are very careful to do was to really limit vertical integration and thereby limits the big players except for the smallest guys, right, that's right. Yeah, So the micro business license and the cooperative licenses are really the only ones that do allow for people to tie multiple aspects of the continuum from cultivation to processing to retail and distribution. Um. But aside from that, you know, we we were very intentional and the sponsors were as well about making sure that there would be as many different entry points for people to participate in this industry as possible. Um. And you know, the the existing medical marijuana organizations within the state, there is a provision within the bill that allows them to participate on the adult use side if they pay a significant fee UM. And that was really important that will go into the incubator program making sure that those funds are available from the very get go um to have those low and zero interest loans, but with really strong guard rails around it as well. We just back up for one second, why do we still need medical marijuana when marijuana is legalized for all? Had I always get a little cloudy about that, right, Um. There definitely are you know, different access points for patients that are really important to maintain as we move into adult use, particularly around costs. UM. So as the as the adult use program becomes set up, they're going to be different tax levels for patients, and so patients will have access a different tax rate. I mean, I I would argue, and I would posit that there just shouldn't be a tax if it's a medication. Um. But you know that's something that we have to move further toward. But it means if you have a prescription, you'll pay less, That's right. If you have a recommendation from a provider UM. And one of the things that the Marijuana Regulation and Taxation Act also did UH was make some changes in terms of the qualifying conditions and also expanding the fact that providers, you know, if they deemed that this that cannabis would be helpful for a patient as part of a palliative care, that they can do a recommendation. UM. It changed the number of hours that are required for them to get certified to be able to recommend cannabis. So in a lot of ways it made improvements allowed for whole flower to be part of the medical program. But will there be any difference in the quality? Like I think in the Netherlands, where marijuana has been caused for decades, they still have a medical marijuana outlet, And what distinguishes it is that the quality of production there is really medical quality in a very strict way. And the other fact is that health insurance will cover it. Yeah, we don't have the health insurance piece unfortunately because of federal prohibition. But will the quality be the same in the medical dispensaries as the others or will there be a difference? There are additional testing parameters as far as I know, UM, the information about tests will be available to consumers across both the medical and the adult use program, which is really easy access. But I think there there are more stringent testing policies around the medical program still, but really a lot of it is around UM access and affordability. Okay, so let's now get into the issue of our not so beloved Governor Andrew Cuomo. Now, I don't know if you even know this, Melissall. I mean I first met Andrew Cuomo back in like two thousand and three. He was running for governor in the Democratic primary against a popular black candidate, Karl McCall, and he landed up alienating every buddy. And meanwhile, the next year he had to sort of make amends, and he decided the way to do it would be to jump in and become a kind of supporter of radical reform of the draconian Rockefeller drug laws. So he and I met. He was an ally. When he became governor, it was very mixed, you know, he didn't seem to care about the issue that much. When the issue around the racist marijuana rest came up, he positioned himself on the right side of that issue. I think he saw it as politically wise, but on the medical marijuana issue, he was a nightmare. I mean, I just I'll tell this last thing. I remember what he had decided he finally needed to do something, and he called me at home and he said, I have this idea. I want to reintroduce his weird provision in the old nineteen seventy seven lore, some old medical marijuana law, and I want to try to resuscitate it. And he said, would you be willing to support it publicly? And I said, well, I don't think it's ever gonna work, But I mean, if you want me to say yes, fine, this is a good start. But do you agree that if we can get a medical marijuana build to your desk, that you'll sign it. And he said, you'll never get it to our desk. And I said, well, I think we have a possibility to get through legislature. You said, well, yeah, if you get it, I'll sign it. And then, of course what happened was we had to bill virtually through the legislature, and at that point he did everything in his power to turn a really good bill into a bad law. So I'm curious about your perspective on the governor and this whole issue. Oh wow, there's a lot to unpack their. Um, you know, it's interesting hearing the trajectory from you know, your historical view and different interaction points with him on this issue from when I joined d p A, I mean pretty shortly thereafter, Um, you know, a press conference about a totally different issue, Governor Cuomo was asked about cannabis and about legalization, and at that point he went back to like gateway theory type of talking points. I mean, just like really absurd. That was like, at that point clearly not the case, not you know, supported by any of the science or any of the research, and yet he was still ling these like old talking points. Um when he was kind of caught unawares, you know, like that was just his gut feeling. Like so, my read of it has been that he, you know, over the years is not really been a fan of cannabis whatsoever, and um, you know, recognized from the criminal justice space the need to talk about the disparities and the impacts within different communities, but wasn't really dedicated to coming up with a comprehensive solution that would actually address that harm and then also move us forward. Into a space where we wouldn't continue to see that sort of devastating impact taking place after medical marijuana passed. And you know a lot of our allies from vocal New York who were you know, lower income New Yorkers who have been directly impacted, many of whom are navigating life with HIV and hepatitis C, who were part of the backbone for the medical marijuana program in New York, who still could not afford medication for all of these years. You know who you were, Like, I went to every single lobby day. I you know, even given the fact that they have pretty severe physical ailments, like really you know, did everything in their power to get this bill passed and then to no avail you know, in terms of their own medical needs. And so that was really important for us as we were moving forward into adult use, was making the improvements in the adjustments that were possible to the medical program, but then certainly not replicating a lot of those things. So that's where I really give a huge amount of credit to the bill sponsors who really held firm in the negotiations with the governor. I mean, I think also Pivolin New York of course, was that until fairly recently, the Republicans to some extent control the state Senate, so they were just a firm obstacle there, and the fact that um Uh Cuomo was politically quite powerful. But I think the thing that happened now with Cuomo being so politically weakened was he wasn't really in a position this year to stand in the way, and he needed a win, and most people aren't paying attention to the details they knew he had publicly said he was in favor of legalizing a few years ago, even though he was blocking a meaningful type of league loization law coming through. So I think that, you know, really things came together with the Democrats having such a super majority in the legislature, and then you take a sustained allied effort in the work that you and the allies did, it really made the difference this year. I think that's exactly right. Yeah, there were so many different factors, definitely flipping a lot of the Senate seats upstate, you know, getting new members in who were just reflective of an entirely different viewpoint and you know, much more supportive of legalization. Even folks like Senator Hinschi, who you know herself is a bit more moderate um, but represents a community and a district that has a lot of farming interests, and so she came out legalization very supportive from the standpoint of like, look, this is going to help family farmers in my district. What about the opposition, I mean, did the cops and prosecutors ever come along or did they just stay adamantly opposed all the way? You know, it's interesting there have been layers to it. I think at a certain point they realized that it was pretty inevitable that legalization was going to happen, and this is going back even a couple of years ago because of the campaign that we were running. And so then they tried to shape certain aspects of it. They tried to carve out ways to criminalize other drugs in different ways within the vehicle and traffic law, just like really wild provisions that had nothing to do with cannabis whatsoever. But we're an attempt to kind of shoehorn in these different policies that they've tried to move for years. And you know, we we were able to block that too, you know, working throughout the coalition and with our allies and just really calling it out very clearly, and even the governor's own legalization proposals that he has included the last couple of state budgets had some of those things, you know, woven into them that we identified really clearly and just went at like a hammer, just relentlessly calling out, you know, the fact that the odor of marijuana under the governor's proposal would have still been able to be used as a justification for a stop in the search when we know, you know, going back to what we were talking about right at the beginning of the disproportionate criminalization and arrest, since we saw the arrest come down a lot in New York City, it really was the odor of cannabis that was just used as a blanket excuse because it didn't require evidence, it didn't show up on a body camera, and so cops are able to just allege left and right, like, oh, I, well, I smelled cannabis. Therefore I had to search this person, and I had to pull his firson over even when there was no possible way. And so we've seen some court opinions in the last couple of years, you know, just saying we're judges have determined this is not credible whatsoever. I'm throwing out the entire case um. But the Marijuana Regulation and Taxation Act, of what we were really pushing for from the campaign perspective was a clear removal of odor as a justification for a search and things like that. Has any other state done that, by the way, I would have to double check on the odor I don't think it's been removed as completely in other states as we have in New York. The curse of going through the legislatures that you have to go through the legislature and it isn't just a ballot question where you move with public opinion, but you can actually be a lot more comprehensive. So we were able to do that. There's other provisions there, like, for example, the fact that because the age for alcohol is twenty one, the age for marijuana being legal is twenty one. But yet yet huge numbers of consumers are under the age of twenty one, and I think you put provision is in the law to make sure that this ridiculous age limit does not have draconian effects. Is that right? That's right? Yeah, So the penalty for underage possession of cannabis is uh, you know, a non criminal one. It's a ticket basically for a young person, or they could complete community service. UM. So we're really clear about not wanting to have any sort of criminal penalties that could lead to a record. UM. But then also you know that even the NYPD's own operations memo following the bill coming out said basically, there's because it's a civil penalty and not a criminal one, there's no mechanism by which the n y p D or other law enforcement across the state can enforce that it's not within their purview. And so there you know, law enforcement is not able to make it a rest, is not able to stop searching question or issue a juvenile report. It's all of these things that can have such a huge impact on on young people. And then you put in consumption rooms so people will be able to have places they can go, commercial establishments where they can consume marijuana, that's right, They'll be safe and sanctioned on site consumption places like lounges where people can go. I gotta tell you the fact that New York State it has to be the first state, isn't it the one where people can actually smoke a joint in public? Anywhere they can still allowed to smoke a cigarette. Yeah, if you're if you're allowed to smoke tobacco, right, I mean there there are a lot of you know, regulations around that, with you know, the Clear Air Act compliance that, but also like it is pretty monumental. Let's take a break here and go to an ad wells. I gotta tell you I don't smoke marijuana very much, and I mostly do edibles, but I literally to celebrate the new law, I walked out my door and down the sidewalk and I lit up just so that I could experience the freedom. You know. I know, the d P A Drug Policy Alliance has had to get a little bit of a sometimes the growing number of prohibition is directed at people who smoke cigarettes are vague. So I mean, now there's a risk that with marijuana being legal to smoke anyone you can smoke a cigarette. Are we gonna get to a point where cigarette is bands so much that people won't be able to smoke mariwana anymore? I mean, I think this is something that comes up, you know, especially from the angle of people who are living in public housing, where because of the smoke Free Housing band that went through from the federal agency level at HOOD a couple of years ago. You know, that was one of the concerns that honestly informed the on site consumption license and making sure that there would actually be spaces where people would be able to be safe and that were sanctioned for use um. But also having that that public consumption piece anywhere that tobacco consumption is allowed outside of parks and outside of driving context, you know, that is still not allowed for cannabis, just to be very very clear for people. Um. But you know, a lot of that was informed by the fact that New York has the largest population in public housing, and so we were totally willing to move forward into a space of legalization that kept people blocked out or established a kind of like two tier system that we were trying to address and was you know, going to be sort of right for ongoing racial disparity. So really trying to anticipate that, and we're going to you know, keep an eagle eye on that and make sure that as implementation rolls out and you know, as we see further operations order shifts from law enforcement, that that actually is in keeping with what's in the bill. Well, I tell you, I mean, I just think it's remarkable all the issues that you thought through. So I take it some of the calls that you're receiving an email as you're getting these days are from people out of state who want to know what they can learn from New York and maybe an even outside the country. There has been a fair amount of like, hey, we're in Wisconsin, like we need help here to um, you know, in different states. You know, it's I mean, it is interesting like other states to a degree can move through ballot initiative. I think, you know, seeing Virginia legalize and then also the work of advocates was absolutely tremendous to move up the enactment date of when decriminal zation would take place. And that is really due to the work of black organizers in Virginia, you know, many of whom we were working in coordination with as well to say, look, if that's great that we legalized, were the first state in the South to do so, but just waiting until four when we know that ongoing racial disparities and enforcement are happening day to day is unacceptable. We need to move this up. And so they were just successful in that effort. Also, UM, and I think you know the South is really going to be like sort of the next uh interesting territory for you know what this conversation will bring. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see because you know, whether or not racial equity provisions can you know, prove winnable in ballot initiatives in the South. Most of the states don't have the initiative process. I mean, Mississippi just legalized medical marri wanted that way. Florida does on the votes, so be interesting. What are the interesting things this year is that our Senator Chuck Schumer, who is now the majority leader, is all over marijuana legalization. I mean he's insisted that he's part of the team with I think why Senator Widen from Oregon and Corey Booker from New Jersey in leading this. He says he wants to move forward even if Biden's not there, even Republicans um But what are the lessons you think from New York for the phase is they proceed? Yeah, I think a lot of it. You know, in many ways, New York is the the example that they should be looking to, and the Senator Schumer has indicated, you know, let's take this win in New York in the way that we really did involve comprehensive redress for prior criminalization as well as UM, you know, specific things like social equity and structuring the business side of things in such a way that people can actually truly have a go of it at the federal level as well. And I think you know, that's been part of the conversation point that he's had with Senator Widen. You know, the fact that we saw the More Act actually passed through the House at the end of last year was absolutely remarkable and the MORE actions so people understand that is a a marijuana legalization bill that does integrate elements of social and economic equity into it. That's right. It has really strong restitution components as all, as we're moving marijuana from the federal schedule of Controlled substances, allowing me for a lot more research. But it does have expungement provisions as well as reinvestment provisions that are really important. And the fact that we saw that move as the comprehensive bill to address UM moving away from cannabis criminalization instead of just the banking bill or instead of just like a smaller business only component is really important. I think, you know, from Drug Policy Alliance perspective, and many of our allies as well. You know, we're calling on Congress and especially the House and saying, look, let's pass this through in this Congress and be able to put the pressure on the Senate side. You know, Senator Schumers, the majority leader, is saying that he wants to move on this. Uh, like you said, Ethan with or without Biden. So let's you know, serve up the foundations to be able to make that happen. Yeah, I'll take you also a Schumer you know, I mean people saying the reason he's doing this is because he's worried about getting primaried by AOC in A in the Senate primary in a year or so, and and so there may be something to that. But I'll tell you, in my occasional interactions with him over the last few decades, I always saw him as somebody who when he came to the broader drug war, he was among the worst Democrats, like Biden, like Feinstein, there were people who were, you know, like the Republicans when it came to just being cruel and dumb on on a harsh drug war. But Schumer always was kind of more relaxed on the marijuana stuff, and I think he's always understood, you know, So finally, um, you know what's next for you, um in New York now that marijuana is legalized. I mean obviously paying attention to the implementation, but what beyond this, Yeah, of course implementation is going to be huge and making sure that this all actually gets you know, stood up and out the door properly. Um. And you know, having that sort of checks and balances on the on all of the provisions that we put in there that we just were talking about making sure people actually know about all of this stuff. Um. But you know, we were fighting the drug war in all of its forms in New York and so you know, Drug Policy Alliance earlier this year released the Uprooting the Drug War Reports and Analysis, which is really looking at all of the different ways in which different system that people interact with on a regular basis have been really contaminated by the drug war as well. So looking at how you know, education has sort of the tentacles of the drug war that have now wound its way through all of these different aspects of that system. You know, employment is another example, public benefits, child welfare, immigration, all of these aspects that you know, we we worked on being able to attempt in some form or another within the Marijuana Regulation and Taxation Act as part of the broader work around marijuana justice. We now need to take that into these other systems in New York State as well. Well you don't. Yeah, I'm just saying we forgot to mention that automatic expungement a marijuana offenses that you got into this law, where in other states people had to apply for it, it it was more limited, but in New York when really is going to result in expulsion for what probably hundreds of thousands of people, that's right, Yeah, it will be on the order of hundreds of thousands of people. It'll extend far further than the twenty nineteen Automatic Expungiment Bill, which actually established expungement for the first time ever in New York State. That was because of our efforts. UM and now under this bill, a much larger universe of offenses will qualify for automatic expungement for people who have immigration considerations. There's a separate track that we were really mindful of, working with allies to make sure that that language was crafted to effectively provide relief there too. Yeah. Well, you know, just to finish this up here. I mean, you know, I'm when I'm thinking back, I feel this tremendous sense of of both pride and fulfillment um about what's happened now, because you know, with Drug Policy Alliance, we had offices in New York and DC. You know, we expanded to California and to call it to New Mexico, New Jersey, and Colorado. And this year New Jersey, in New York and New Mexico, the three news of the right all legalized, which means that all of the d p A states where we actually had people working full time have now legalized marijuana. Now. The other place that d p A was very much in the news not long ago was for the ballot Initiative and Oregon the decriminalized possession of small amounts of a drugs, not just marijuana, but you know, heroin, cocaine, f anthonemy, whatever, um, and really introduced a kind of Portugal style European approach. So is that part of your upcoming agenda New York. That's definitely part of the conversation that we're having in New York around just how do we shift from a criminalization approach to drugs to one that is much more rooted in providing people with the care and the resources that they need if they're experiencing problematic use, and leaving them alone to live their lives with dignity and peace if they're not experiencing problematic use. Right, So, I mean, let's hope that New York can become one of the first states to move all drug DCRIM and all the related elements of that through the legislative process, because that would be a major breakthrough in national leadership. So Melissa, I just want to thank you. I'm so incredibly proud of the work that you've accomplished, and you and and our colleague Cassandra who is you know, your predecessor in the New York effort is now my successors head of Drug Policy Alliance. But you've done really fantastic work, and uh, just congratulations, congratulations. You've provided at a model both for the rest of the country and even the rest of the world about how to legalize marijuana in a way that really does justice all around and especially to those who are most harmed by the drug warp. So thank you, thank you, thank you, Thanks so much for the conversation today, and thank you for founding Drug Policy Alliance for giving me a job my great pleasure. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Naedelman. It's produced by Katcha Kumkova and Ben Kibrick. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronovski for Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick for I Heart Radio and me Ethan Naedelman. Our music is by Ari Blusian and a special thanks to a viv Brio, Sef Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Beatty. If you'd like to share your own stories, comments, or ideas, please leave us a message at eight three three seven seven nine six. That's one eight three three psycho zero. You can also email us as Psychoactive at protozoa dot com or find me on Twitter at Ethan Natalman. And if you couldn't keep track of all this, find the information in the show notes. And on the next episode of Psychoactive, we'll be talking to overdose expert Professor Dan Chick. Our owne what the hell is going on here? I mean it just keeps going up and up. It's a devastating problem. Uh, we'll get into nitty gritty, but what's your kind of, you know, bird's eye view of what's going on in America? It is well, As I told The New York Times, this is a historic crisis. If you look back almost forty years at mortality data due to illicit drugs, we see a log rhythmic upward trend. That's a trend that you would have to deliberately try to make that outrageous. Subscribe to Cycleactive now see it, don't miss it.