Hi, I'm Ethan Natalman and this is Psychoactive, a production of iHeart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the show where we talk about all things drugs. But any of view is expressed here do not represent those of my Heart Media, Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed, as an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not even represent my own and nothing contained in this show should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Well, we're approaching at the end of the second season of Psychoactive, but in thinking about how I'd like the last or penultimate episode to be, uh, you know, the notion of getting more personal, going more deeply into the issue and the questions around m d m A seemed to me a good one. Obviously, we've talked about m d m A before. There was the episode with Rick Doblin talking about his history of the m d m A and the trials that will hope to result in the f d A approving m d m A and the next year or so. But our guest today is somebody who's not an m d m A psychotherapist. He doesn't do psychotherapy with m d m A. He's not part of the trials that MAPS has been moving Forward and others, but he's deeply knowledgeable about the subject. His name is Charlie Wininger. He's the author of a book a couple of years ago called Listening to Ecstasy, The Transformative Power of m d m A. Now he's a licensed psychoanalyst and mental health counselor in New York. He's been in private practice more than thirty years. Some years years ago, The New York Times and Newsday nicknamed him the quote unquote love doctor because of his work with singles. But now he's specializing more in relationships and communication. Skill isn't dealing with love and couples and also grief. But I also asked Um Charlie to invite his wife, Shelly on the program as well, Shelley winning Gerald Um in part because the book he and story he tells and Listening to Ecstasy is so much about the relationship. I mean, the two of them when I crossed paths with them in New York City. They are an inseparable couple and something about the most reminded me of Sasha and Anne Shulgin if you think about their book Pekal, where half the book is the chemical recipes for all sorts of psychedelic substances. The other one is the story of their love story and their use of various substances. So, Charlie Shelley, thank you ever so much for joining me and my listeners on Psychoactive. Thank you. It's wonderful to be here. Charlie. Um. You know I'll tell you reading your book, I mean, it's really almost a story, UM of three loves, your love with Shelley, your love of M d m A and its value, and then a third story about your love of community and the communities you're part of, UM and that you've helped organize and curate. And so you know, let me just start UM by asking you. I mean, much of your book involves, you know, this, this period twenty years ago when you and Shelley meet and it's your second marriages and you fall in love and and we'll get into that story. But in terms of your earlier history of M D m A, had you done it before, had it been less valuable to you in your life? Was there a pre story there. M d M A was not valuable to me at all until I met Shelley. I had given it up. I had only done it alone and recreationally. I didn't know about the protocols at the time. I'm going back to the nineties, and I didn't know about hydrating. I didn't know about not mixing it with alcohol, all these basic fundamental mistakes. So I had given it up for dead. I thought that this was a substance without substance. Then I met Shelley, and Shelley was like just recently sprung from a regressive marriage, and she wanted to spread her wings. And when she found out about my hippie past and I don't know if it's all in the past um, and she found out that I was a psychoanot and had been a psychoanat for thirty years by the time I met her twenty years ago. She said she wanted to uh, she wanted me to corrupt her basically, so I said about doing so. And the first time we did M d m A together was a true revelation for both of us. Just seeing her come on, seeing her climb on M d M A was like, I mean into my mind. She it was beautiful to begin with, and um and full of innocence and joy. And suddenly I realized that, Yeah, this is the chemical of connection. This chemical is not to be done alone. When I was alone, I felt like I was and rolling alone. I felt like I was all dressed up with nowhere to go. It's really about connecting with myself but also with another and in time many others uh and and uh intentional experiences that we curated later on. Well, let me ask you know, at one point you say in the book, Charlie that that what you love most that that you find that you came to recognize the things that you love most about Shelley and M. D m A are similar, And I wonder, Shelley, would you say the same about Charlie and M D m A. What do you mean but similar? Well, Charlie, what did you mean by similar? Well, um, that M. D m A gets me right in the moment, and that's really where Shelley lives. I have a more of my mind is heavy and convoluted, and I'm always thinking about the past and the future. Shelley is more in the here and now, and that's what M. D. M A does for me as well. So that's a similarity right there. I agree absolutely, m I just wanted to say it also for me. At the very first time I felt a live. I had been very oppressed, I guess between my mother and my ex husband, and all of a sudden everything well, my little handcuffs were released and I felt beautiful. It was just amazing. And the drug has continued to work for the two of you. Oh yeah, after many dozens of because now you're using it. I think you said in the book, try three or four times a year. And if you've been together for over twenty years, well we've been We've done about eight roles together in the experience, basically correct in the last twenty years. Yes, And you know, another similarity is that M D m A gets me and other people I've met into a state of complete innocence, like a child, like just happy to be alive and be with somebody else that they like, just very simple and innocent and joyful. And Shelley is uh really I experienced her as a very her spirit is is very innocent and joyful. So that's another way that there they are similar. Well, you know, I mean, what really stands out for me in your book is the ways in which you can I mean, we'll talk about the ways you which can m d m A to being a psychotherapist, but it's about the notion of healthy aging. I mean you you you specifically say healthy aging is not just for older people, um, but also for younger people as well. But you know here, I mean there's a sense in which I'm reading your book, and I mean, I mean here we are you and I were too, you know, bald headed, white goateed senior citizens right dealing with aging in various ways and also deeply immersed in are you more than I perhaps been in a in a psychedelic community in New York and more broadly right and the issues around aging, you know, as our body's age, as all sorts of things age and stuff like that. But you talk about the role of m d m A and healthy aging is absolutely pivot ingredient to making aging work. Well, so just um a little more about that. I've learned that and this I really only learned through uh having all these experiences over the years with m d m A. It seems to have a cumulative effect, at least for me. Uh, so many experiences of being for four or five, six, seven, eight hours feeling completely ageless, giving me a sense of what it's like to uh feel like really ten thirty forty years younger than I am. For that period of time, I can dance like I'm not even dancing, I'm being danced like the m D m A is the puppeteer and I at the marionette and I'm and I'm being danced and I'm moving to so light on my feet. Uh. And it helped me realize that aging is that I've been brainwashed about it. I think we all have, you know, like the brainwashing goes like this past age five, your stock goes down a point a year in terms of your of your worth into society or socially. Uh. And so that's why we are all on a hell bent mission to try to say, oh, I'm not old, I'm young at hard like old is old itself is a dirty word that's like ridiculous uh and and oppressive. Uh. So, I you know, somebody looks at me now and they say, uh, you know, you look about sixties sixty five. I want to shake them up, and they'll say, excuse me, I'm about to be seventy four years old, and I earned every year, and I'm happy and proud to be this age. I don't want to be mistaken for younger, as if that's some sort of compliment. It's not a compliment. That's actually a backhanded insult. When somebody says you look good for your age, I'm sorry, you look good for a and fill in the blank with any other demographic and it would be an insult. But but you look good for your age means that, um, you don't look as old as you really are, as if that's supposed to be uh, make you more valuable in some way. So I realized through doing M D M A a a lot that all this was oppressing me, and that at any age in my life, I am every age. In other words, and it may help me get in touch with my eight year old, my eighteen year old, my twenty eight year old, and I can do that when I'm sober, because my inner child, or my inner eighteen year old, on my inner thirty year old has has thanks to tell me and thanks to remind me of and that that's vitality and spontaneity that I had then is still available to me. And so M m A has really helped me across the adult lifespan. Mm hmm. Well, for our listeners, let me just read a few lines from the book. From his book Listening to Ecstasy, he says, at one point, there are two boxes in this world one needs to avoid. His best one can the box they put you in when you die, and then when they try to put you in when you're alive. I found the best way to delay the former is to live a life outside the ladder. And at another point he goes he describes m d m A as an emotional decongested and says, I found my ability to appreciate and benefit from medicines m d m A ripens with age that for him, it's a chemical hedge against feeling like aging's victim and against age related fear. Here we have not an antidote, but a solve, a tonic, a rejuvenating vacation that can replenish the fountain of one's youth. Shelley, the same for you. Absolutely, when I roll, I do become age, lists I don't think of how old I am. And because even when I'm not rolling, I still my brain that's still feel young. I mean, I'll tell you in reading your book. Part of I had really almost two kind of emotional reactions to it. One was how much it reminded me of what I loved about M D M A H in my relationships in the past, you know, in the role it played that you know, in my relationship with my first wife, where I think, you know, we were at the verge of divorce and we did it, and it was really eye opening and more than eye opening, soul opening, and I even though it didn't result in saving our marriage, it helped us to a softer landing, and then in subsequent relationships it was just this incredibly valuable tool. And also, you know, in terms of talking things through, in terms of being clear with one, of being able to not just say things well, but here things well. And I also noticed even the very first time I did it, about being in my body. It wasn't I burst out. Well, I guess there was some dancing there, I mean, but I remember feeling the energy. I always felt that the energy of my body was very very much in my torso and I never felt all that grounded. And the first time I did M D M A I could almost feel the energy pushing itself down my legs to kind of become more grounded. And then on the music. I remember the for the music we put on, it was something called Earth Tribe Rhythm. It was this wonderful dancing music, this drumming and electronic music. UM, that was just you know, just inspiring and just with you know, dance like crazy the same way that you're describing. But in the book you talk about some other things. You talk about about music and a good sound system, you talk about anchoring. UM say something more first of all about what what music goes well with what and why? Well, it depends what you want to do. UM. A comedian once said, I heard him on the TV said with M d M, A people like to dance to E d M. And he says, you know what E d M stands for. It means everyone's doing molly. So I like the d M. Electronic dance music, of course is what it really stands for. And because that's for dancing, uh and also for me good old rock and roll. But for if I'm not uh, if I'm feeling more calm and uh and just hanging out with my love, UM, we might put on some Buddha bar or trip hop exotic Buddha Lounge in different playlists like that, and shall you share the same taste with Charlie in this matter? Oh yeah. When I first met him, I pretty much I raised two children, so I was listening to a lot of kids stuff and listening to show tunes. So I introduced him to show tunes. He introduced me to old fashioned rock and roll, and little by little over the years we started playing with different kinds of music and we found bootleannge for soft for like Edgier music, or or bootle Lounge boudle bar, which is softer. It's also very sexual, so that's nice. Well, so I want to get into the sexual thing in a moment. But what about I'm mixing M D M A with other drugs, whether it's I guess well, a candy flipping when you do with LSD or some people have coning with our wana either before during year after. What's your thoughts about about all of that? Well, Um, New Year's Eve we candy flipped, which we like to do if we can't make it to the Fish concert because they want two dollars a ticket. Um, we can't make it to Fish on New Year's Eve at Madison Square, garden, then we'll we'll candy flip at home with M D M A and LSD and tends to put us over the edge. Really, it tends to put us in a very blissful, blissful, deeply sensual space. But even then, if if we're just doing M D M A and we want to get it on um, which I always do with my ageless angel Um, we will wait till the end of the role because it's hard for Uh. It's it's it's I just punned there as a bad pun It's it's difficult, not it's hard for a man to stay hard on M D M A. At least that's the experience of a lot of men. So we wait till the end of the role. As we're coming down and add cannabis to it. Um. Shelley will take an edible, which he has a lot very valuable things to talk about about that, and I will just take some smoke, some sativa, and then we can have what I'd like to call sextasy, where we're just having an amazing sexual encounter at the end of a role. So let me shift here to Shelly, So Shelly um in terms of cannabis and M d M A and these other things. I mean throughout this book, and obviously you must have given your okay for Charlie to do this. He describes you as this incredibly sexual, sensual or gasmic you know, evermore so as your age. I mean, it's a wonderful description something. What element It reminded me of part of the things that Anne Schilgren writes about when she does two CB with UH with Sasha. You know, I remember, I think she talks about doing two c B at one point and and just totally going through this horrific depression, ego destruction, and then Sasha appears at the door and the thing does a one eight and flips into this utter beauty and she has the most the biggest, most sustained orgasms of her life. She thereby, by the way, said a lot of people up for for failure when it came to like jumping, let's do two c B and have sex, because people, if you could go into that way, often it's just not gonna work that way. Um. But but I'm curious, Shelley, So when Charlie is describing you in this way, I'm assuming that you verified everything he wrote about you in this book. So when it comes to these different drugs, um and in terms of sexuality, and I understand that you're oftentimes you know that you're part of what you do is actually teaching younger women about learning about their sexuality. So tell us about your sexuality and especially as you've got it older, and the various medicines or substances that you're using. Do you have about a week, Well, not exactly, but how about the highlights? Okay, the highlights. First of all, I found when we lived in our first apartment, I was just starting to go through menopause, and uh, we could hear the people in the next in the next department, which meant they could hear us. So I realized I I was very controlled and I was I was sexy, I was sexual, but not until we moved to our apartment now where we have another building next to our building, so setting the setting for me changed completely and that made me feel free. I could be more verbal, which does help. It's only in about two years and I've been playing with edible cannabis because I have a vocal cord problem and my doctor told me to use edible because the they was causing problems. Well, I just started using cannabis at the edible and it changed me completely. I am They say that the brain is the largest sex organ in our body, and I've been taking advantage of that. Uh. It focuses on me, and many times I will take it before Charlie is ready for me. And I just played with music. I'll listen to music, I'll start focusing singing it on different parts of my body. I'll start touching different parts of my body. I'm learning more and more about my body even now, and I feel that that a lot of women don't know their body. They don't know it's a lot of them don't even know that they're What kind of orgasms there are? How many orgasms? I called my little ones organs. I have lots of organs. And I started playing with music where I would listen to different kinds of music and as it would vibrate, I would focus the vibration down below. And I found I could have an orgasm without touching myself, just using the music in my brain. And when people hear that, they're like, oh my god. Because I have to use edibles which stay in your body longer, and I think really affect the body. Maybe differently. I can't talk for people who smoke or you know, babe whatever. I can only talk about edibles. But yeah, it's some. It's it's very interesting and I'm still learning. And I'll tell you a very quick story. When I was in nursing school back in nineteen sixty nine, I started nineteen six seventy a gynecollege. Just came to talk to the whole freshman class because we were all getting you know, we're eighteen years old, nineteen years all living in New York City. He was talking to us about the birth control pill, and then he talked about something called the pelvic tilt. Now I was a virgin. I really knew nothing about sex. A few months ago. Uh, during sex, I realized I was doing the pelvic tilt he was talking about fifty years ago, and it meant just moving my body up so that he was rubbing against my cletterest and giving me an orgasm. M hm. So that that was like, whoa, we know he took me this. You just came across recently. Yeah, what a wonderful discovery. Yes, I do cannabis every week, but but I a New Year's Eve when we candy flipped. Uh, I ended up taking a little piece of edible and because the m d M may seem to be overpowering the LSD and we wanted to have sex, So I took a little piece of edible and about it. Within an hour, all of a sudden, the tapestry over our bed is moving and I'm like, holy shit, I'm treating And Charlie's like, oh, you mean the the uh did the cannabis help the the m d M. A. I'm like no, And I only took a little piece of acid. I said it activated the acid. For the first time, I was quote unquote tripping balls. I had never done that that much before. It was very, very different. Uh. Sex at that point I couldn't do because I could barely speak. So we'll be talking more after we hear this ad in the book right while you talk about the importance of anchoring, right that during the NDEMA experience, that one's getting the emotional psychological insights and that one wants to kind of be conscious at that time of how one can come back to those places. But I'm wondering, both for you and Shelley, whether that's also true about sexuality, like even leaving a part of cannabis. Um. Does one get to places with the LSD or or M D m A and sexuality that one can then anchor and think about how long comes back to those that space without the use of substances. Um, you know, in subsequent days, weeks, or the rest of one's life. Yes. Um. And one great way to anchor the experience is with the use of music. And this is described in the book. But also when you're high on whatever substance and you get into a piece of music that you love, and if it's a piece of music that makes you feel erotic sensual, uh, you can make note of that and remember that and then afterwards, uh, days or weeks later, when you're a sober uh, you can play that music again and turn down the lights and light some candles and and um, hang out with your partner or yourself and get into that same sensual or sexual mood. Shellyam, is it that way for you as well? I mean, is there a sense of that oh my god factors saying I can I can get back here without these drugs? Um? Yes, and no. When Charlie proposed to me, I was ecstatic obviously pose to me on a Friday that next day, we had planned to go up to a state park upstate, which we did, and we took M D M A and I listened to a song by Enya called Flora's Secret because we were like the only ones in this field the sun was shining and Floria's Secrets about flowers. I listened to it about twenty times while under the influence of M D M A. Even today, twenty some odd years later, I or fifteen seventeen years later, I could listen into that song and be brought back to the feeling of lying under the sun being on M D M A even now. Uh, that's the most impressive one that I find. It still amazes me. Uh. There is some psychedelic songs that Charlie plays sometimes, like the Chambers Brothers. Uh Time has Come today. It's a very hut Charlie trippy song. IM talking about the long version, the FM version of eleven minute version. Time has Come Today. It's that one of the best psychedelic songs ever ever produced. And when I hear that song, it just puts me in the mood no matter what I'm on or if anything, What a blessing this has been from me? If you ask me an age thirty, forty or fifty, what my sex life would be as a seventy three year old man, I would have frowned and said, I dread what would happen? What will happen? But um, I was sex life keeps ripening, keeps blossoming. Um and my wife, my this this I called her my ageless Angels. She's more sexual than ever before. So um, I'm just uh so blessed to have found her. Well, let me ask this question. I mean, Shelley, Well, you're describing is obviously just you know, um, you start using edible two years ago, but that's when Charlie's book came out, and he's already describing you as this incredibly sexual being before that, and also about M D m A. So I'm curious, Shelley, what about with M D M A. I mean, you know, I mean Charlie described and it's been sometimes my experience as well, that M D M A could lead to really exquisite um sex, although virtually never ending for me at least in an orgasm, that it is almost impossible to orgasm, but that one could get an incredibly sensual, you know, loving sexy, just delicious delightful place. Um, but I'm what about from your perspective in terms of M d m A and sex. Uh Okay, One time at a music festival, I was standing up and swaying to the music, and apparently I was rubbing my legs together. I had an orgasm. I was I was on m d m A at the time. Yes. Add if we are together in bed and the m d m A is still very active, um, the best thing I can do for her is go down on her um at that time because it might be hard for me to get or stay hard, but I can do other things. You know. I really appreciate your sharing the story is here. On the other hand, I also wonder you know, I mean, Charlie, I have to say in reading your book, and you know, you're offering a lot of wisdom and guidance about healthy aging and about sexuality. But it also, you know, I keep having this you know, questioning thing. Well, but Charlie, maybe you just met the perfect woman to have this relationship with and it's less about the drug and it's more about the woman. And obviously the drug is helping these things along. Um. You know, but but I mean, you do you talk in the book about you know, for the first two in your twenties sorties and forties, for you was always finding some woman who was highly intellectual and was all gonna you know, ups and downs mood wise, and wasn't utterly gonna be There's gonna be a lot of you know, a lot of excitement, but a lot of grief. And then you describe meeting Shelley, who was just this magical partner for you. And I wonder about you know, if if you have I don't want to have to go think about this, but assuming you had never met Shelly, I mean with this whole evolution in your life with M D m A and sexual I mean, could it could you even envision it having happened? Or was she just the key to all of this? Uh? You you have you make a good point. I mean, she Shelly and I are unusually compatible. Um. But the thing is Ethan that I think the age ism, the internalized ideas that we uh that we inhale from this culture about what to expect from ourselves and our partners or our future partners as we age, is debilitating because we expect less in terms of sexual connection, and you know, often women they go through menopause, and many women feel like I'm done with sex. That's it. I don't want to have sex anymore. And that's obviously a very valid choice. All we're saying is that there's another option, uh, and that couples don't have to settle for a sexless marriage if they don't want to, if they're having emotional troubles because they're fighting and and and and that gets reflected in lack of a sex life. Okay, well, then you need couples counseling because I've found that, you know, it can it can get better with couples counseling. Shelley and I have been to a couple's counselor many times because we hit a human We hit snags along the way. Um, but but we are unusually compatible. And uh, sex is to have a sexually alive marriage is possible across the whole adult lifespan. And you know, there's a whole spectrum of sexual of sexuality between two people. It's not just about intercourse. It can be about affection. Shelley and I are affectionate, uh, through the day and through the week with each other. We keep that aliveness there, that connection there, and that was influenced not only by our strong love for each other, but by M D M A that helped us stay in the moment and realize that our bodies are where we live. And when I touched her, I feel her touching me, and uh and it it brings me out of whatever craziness I'm rumination I have in my head. Um she I wake up in the morning and I'm full of a thousand thoughts. I walk into the kitchen, she stands up and wants to hug me, and my day is made at that point because she just squeezes all the nonsense out of me at that moment that I come to and I'm really awake man for the rest of the day. You know, Charlie. One thing you just spend a lot of time on in the latter part of the book is dealing on the one hand, with agism in our society, and not just asism in terms of young people kind of making assumptions about people who look older, but also in the ways in which those assumptions are internalized. And then you describe how you and Shelly do something which I can relate to a lot, which is you oftentimes find yourself in environments UM parties, things like that, UM where you're far and away the oldest people there right where the most of the people in their twenties or thirties, and there you are in your late sixties or early seventies. And what that's like and what you describe I think is I mean, first of all, the lack of inhibition on both your part and even more so Shelley's part. Um that's actually really rejuvenating and and and and and sort of you know, just stimulates a kind of renewed vitality where you can feel your younger self, and even your body for at least for those hours, can feel dramatically younger than it actually is. When we are with younger people, and it's often with people in the psychedelic community. UM, suddenly those old notions of I call them apartheid, of of of age segregation that exists in a town like New York City, it falls away. And the benefit is too way. It's in both directions. We benefit by being around younger people who are filled with vitality and a freshness that you ordinarily don't see in sixties and seventies and eighty year olds. So we benefit from that. They benefit from seeing us. Uh. Sometimes they want to, you know, just be around us to gain whatever wisdom they think we might have. UM. But also they want to be around us because they see the love between us. It's palpable and it gives them hope for their future. If they're single, it gives them hope to have a relationship that that works like always does UM. But if the couple they can see that, yeah, the love can keep going and keep growing through the decades. But I mean, it sounds like you're trying to send a message to that. On the one hand, the psychedelics community is quite accepting of this age spectrum. But even so, to be in a kind of parting environment is UM is unusual. And you guys are sort of role models and you're talking back the fact that seeing yourselves is as as owning the notion of yourself as elders and even you know, not quite putting into people's face, but saying we are elder is there's something too. So I mean, when did that first hit you that you're an elder? That you when we would go to a rave and people would come up to us invariably and say, I'm so glad you're here. You give me hope. They use a different line sometimes than the one your friend got. He said, You're what I want to be when I don't grow up. So people are grateful to us for for showing up and showing that it's possible to to keep the party going across the whole lifespan show. You share this feeling of being an elder in the community. Oh, absolutely, I've had. I had a woman come over to me back in October. We were at a party and uh, she wanted to know what you in her like early thirties. Do I have any advice for her? And I said, and I hadn't think because nobody has really asked me about advice. And I said, go with your gut feelings, because I have learned that if the gut is telling me one thing, it's usually the right thing. I like to say that the best part of the psychedelic community isn't the psychedelics, it's the community. It's the people who are drawn to these medicines are among the most open hearted, open minded, curious seeking people that I would ever want to meet. And so we've we've looked out in this way and to be elder is it just seems um like, I feel like we're in the right place at the right time, especially in the middle of a renaissance. I mean, it's fab lists. Well, you know, in the book, Charlie, you put this in some historical context. I mean, at one point you say, I wonder if my shift in drugs of choice from cocaine when I was younger to m d m A corresponds to a larger shift in the zeitgeist, one to a more feminine ethic. Consider the code names for these two drugs, blow and molly, And then you talk about you know, two key moments in two thousand and four and five. I think it was first when Peter Jettings, the ABC News correspondent, does his special about m DMA called Ecstasy Rising. And then around the same time when Alex Gray, the famous Psychedelsis painter, and his wife Allison, also a painter, you know, creates the Chapel of Sacred Mirrors uh kasum c O s M. And when that opens in New York and sort of opens up a culture. So it does seem that there was I mean, here you and Shelley had what met in the late nineties or around two thousand and then a few years later there's this kind of both you know, public media opening with with Peter Jettings thing and then with Alex and Alison Gray doing Cosum. I mean when you reflect back on that time, I mean, what did it feel like then or was it you know, did you were you just in the right place and right time to be you know, part of this wave or it was just part of a broader zeitgeist that was happening. You know that it was the world, like I say, were in the right place at the right time, and we still are um. Cosum opened in October first, two thousand and four. I tell the whole story in the book UH and UH and and Roland Griffith's was doing this breakthrough work at UH at Johns Hopkins UH with realizing that psilocybin can have these terrific beneficial effects for people, and that was getting That was the first wave of publicity that LSD or magic mushrooms or m D M a UH that had been damned by the by the government than the culture are actually solutions. They're not drug problems, that drug solutions, and that they the narrative around these substances began to change back then, and don't don't forget that in twenty in two thousand and three, after Existas Rosing was when we started our first polums where we were able to a little Yeah, that's a very important part of our life. Yeah, people listening to go back to what you were just talking about there about community that caused them Chapel secret inspires a kind of pop up parties. You guys have your first gathering and that you know, and and that's part of the places where you're interacting much younger people. But it's clear, Charlie that you're very conscious and I guess really both of you, you and Shelley in terms of bringing people together, you know, emphasizing the value of community. Sometimes this involves M D m A. Sometimes it is not, But just you know, I mean, I'm really impressed, and I know you've invited me numerous times to to come to one of these gatherings, and I I do intend effects sooner than later to say yes to that um. But say more about these gatherings and their apportance. And sure, as I said at the beginning, you describe you three loves, right, Shelley, M D m A and the communities that you're part of, so talk about community. Well, Um, so we wanted to host here. MAPS had sent out an email saying, anyone who wants to host a screening of the Peter Jennings UH interview a show called Ecstasy Rising in two thousand and four, just let us know. So we let them know, and they sent a bunch of people our way and we all watched this together. That was our first pot luck. Um, we all watched together and um, we we're talking till like one or two am in the morning because we had found each other. So every year after that, we who would host a pot luck in our apartment, reaching out two MAPS to say, you know, tell people in the New York City vicinity, and you know that we are opening our homes to UH to other MAPS members. And over the years it would grow and finally we couldn't contain it till one night anymore. It grew to two nights, and then three nights. Now these years we have people coming in over four nights, people per night from the MAPS and the larger community to UH here in New York City, the psychedelic community. And these are just blissful events because and they're sober events, UH, except for a little wine or beer. That's it's a pot luck and it's sober, and we're talking about the topic that people agree on beforehand that they want to talk about, like sex, drugs, and intimacy or whatever the topic is. And people get to meet and friendships get born on these nights that friendships that have lasted for for years even decades now UH. This coming year into three, we will we will be celebrating our twenty anniversary our potluck dinners, and we're going to do something special to do this and get a whole a whole lot of people together for a night, maybe rent the boat to go around Manhattan. I don't know what we're gonna do, but we usually do this in in UH later in the year. But we've also hosted besides the potlucks, we've hosted definitely non sober arrance is UH in Prospect Park where we're just gather people together, twenty five people, thirty five people, forty five people and to the outside world, it just looks like a bunch of people having a picnic except for the occasional cuddle puddle, but we're just having a blissful time together for the day and for people who participate in that, and anyone can do this, by the way, any listener of this show, Uh, you know people or you can you can find people who will do this with you. And it's a wonderful way to get to know people. There's no better way to spend the day, uh than rolling together on M D m A and just getting to know each other. And because as you know, M D M A opens the heart and opens the mind and just to make that connection. People want to stay connected after these group experiences. For here is UM and they do. It's a great way to to make new friendships and it's been a wonderful blessing for Shelly and I. Charlie, is there any advice you can tell the listeners about how they actually can are there are there websites or anything else to figure out how you tap into this community in your local area? Well, um, yeah, there are many websites, UM certainly Uh if somebody wants to tap into the community, they can give me, uh, send me an email. You can you can get into my website and listening to ecstasy dot com or Charlie Wininger dot com and uh C J Wininger at gmail dot com is my email address. But they're also like here in New York. Uh, there's a Brooklyn Psychedelic Society which is very popular. And the Psychedelic Society's all over the country. You just have to do some digging. They're not underground. They are It's not a place to go to get high. It's not a place to go to find a source. It's a place to go to meet other people. And uh sometimes it's a meet up dot org or you can start your own psychedelic society in your town. Believe me, there are people within ten miles of you, lots of people within ten miles of you who are doing psychedelics and they're just keeping it quiet like you might be keeping it quiet. But they're out there and they want to meet you. So there are friendships waiting to be made. Let's take a break here and go to an air no try. I want to take up another issue though with you, which is you also describe some history of struggling with substance abuse, with cocaine and with amphetamine and having a father was alcoholic and and you also then talk about how M D m A has helped you in this regard that if you know, whereas you have to be careful. There are people who can get addicted to M d m A. It is possible, and people do abuse it in that way. Um, but it also can be helpful. So just say more about that. Well, um, yeah, it's a whole story. But um, I was struggling with cocaine for a while and the best definition of cocaine I ever heard was Robin Williams calling it the devil's dandruff. Um it's just for some people it works, I'm sure, but for me, it it worked me. Um, cocaine was doing me. I wasn't doing cocaine. Um, it was. It was abusing me. And I realized that I had to quickly quickly make a choice. It was gonna win or I was going to win. So UM, I found two key, two keys, one illegal and one not legal. Uh. The not legal key for me was M d M A because I soon discovered that M d M A was a far far superior medicine because it lasts longer, because it doesn't have addictive qualities like cocaine notoriously does not everyone gets addicted to cocaine who uses it, but a lot of people do. I I was getting there. Um. Uh. And M D m A is not addictive for me and for most people. Uh. And it lasts a lot longer, it's a whole lot cheaper, it has all kinds of of of benefits. The legal route that helped me was very dark chocolate, and I'm talking about hundred bitter chocolate. Most people eat chocolate for the taste. I eat it for the effect because it sends me in just a little bit of the same direction of cocaine or M D m A. It's a stimulant and it's a mood elevator. And so I am now a t alcoholic, which is a perfectly functional addiction to have at all. The hundred percent dark chocolate with dates in it, and it's just it's just wonderful and it it elevates my mood and it helps uh sex as well. Uh. And it's um and it's healthy. So these things have helped me. I haven't done cocaine in what about eleven twelve years now, and so I'm very I'm very happy about that, mm hmm. And when you think about how you're in D M A use has shaped your your approach to being a psychotherapist, I mean is it a monumental impact on that or just kind of a you know, it's help you refine be more empathic. I mean, what are they? What are the key, what's the relationship there? It's helped me become a better therapist, because I mean I was fairly empathetic to begin with, but of course m d m A helps amplify one's uh proclivity towards empathy. And having had eighty roles, I know what feels like in my heart to empathize with somebody physically UM, and I can anchor that and bring it into the therapy session. I do therapy so but the client is sober, and I am sober. But I found that the best therapy I can do, that I can provide is if I can try to make try to create an atmosphere and environment in the therapy room that replicates the m d m A experience. And what I mean by that is being receptive to the person, listening deeply into and through exactly all that they're saying and all that they're conveying, really being there uh and reflecting back to them what I hear and UH and and empathizing and showing compassion as best as I can, and when they feel safe, their defenses can come down a bit, and when the defenses come down, they can come out a bit and risk being vulnerable right there in the therapy session, and that's where the healing can really start taking place. And when we think about m d m A, I mean, obviously the you know, the research is being done out by MAPS in terms of treating PTSD, and there's all the looking at its value in other areas, maybe including a diction, maybe including eating disorders, maybe including you know, fear around end of life. But when we think about m d m A and helping people deal with grief or the grief the loss of a loved one, um, what can you say about that? How much time do we have? Ethan? I mean, I'm also I'm hesitated because you know, I know when when when when we all had dinner with some friends last year, and Shelly, you told the story about about the loss of your son and also about how I think m d m A was helpful in dealing with that. But I don't know, I don't know if you want to go there. I know it's painful to talk about, So Shelly, if you're willing to share that store. I think it would be interesting in lightening for our listeners. Okay, so I made thirteen. Um, my son died. He was thirty nine years old, and this was we already knew that we were going to have a group of a group role and people were asking was shall we going to be in on it? And I said absolutely to use M D M A to help me in my grief. It could be it could be perfect. So we um. We went to Prospect Park in about an hour and a half for so into the experience, Charlie called us into a circle whoever wanted to participate. There was one person who came down from Boston. Actually he had lost his mother the same day that I lost my son, and he spoke about his mother a little bit. And then other people who had lost people in the past year had spoken about their people. And then it was my turn and um, when somebody had enlarged a photograph for me, and when I opened it up and saw the photograph, has just started crying a little bit photograph of my son. And um. Then Charlie said that what he said to the group, that what he didn't tell me was that that day that when after I heard heard what happened. He and I, Charlie and I were sitting on the couch and Charlie said, he felt Scott. My son's name was Scott. He felt Scott's presence in the in the living room. I felt Scott's presence in the living room um the day he died, and he was hovering above. And this man who I was thirty nine years old, who had been suffering all his life from mental illness and physical maladies. He was in a lot of pain. He was smiling down at the two of us, and he said, I'm free. And at that when I said that in front of Shelley, to the whole group there in Prospect Park, she burst like a damn and she began sobbing. And as I was sobbing, I could start to feel people energy around me, people coming touching my head, my shoulders, my legs, and I don't know how long I sobbed. I I kind of lost to I wasn't I It wasn't until I don't even know how long I sobbed. But then I realized I was kind of emptying myself out and because of the m D m A, I realized this afterwards, of course, because of the M D M A. I was able to receive their love and everything because they were on M D M A and they were able to give. And when I opened my eyes, it was a bit strange. I didn't see people at first. I saw I can only describe it like spirits, and they were dark, but it was I realized. I just felt calm, and when I opened my eyes, I finally when it cleared, I saw people, and uh, it was beautiful. I just I thanked them and said, how it's really helped me start my healing. And then I had told Charlie earlier that I wanted to dance whatever happens in the circle. I don't know what's going to happen, but I want to dance to celebrate life, and that's what we did. Then I put some dance music on and we dance, and it was really an ecstatic moment because of the M D M A. Like Shelly said, um, she could feel without hesitation. Just at that moment when she heard me say that, Scott said he was free. She could just really expel all that grief and let it completely out. Were left her empty, and then when she opened her eyes she could see all these loving people around her, and she could just let herself fill up with their love and so the grief got replaced with the love. And sure, so Shelley still has has grief for her the passing of her son. Of course she will for the rest of her life, but she's never been debilitated by it because of that moment. It was not just M D m A that did it. It was M D m A in community and with the intention of healing that did it. A few days later, we got an email from a friend who was there who said, I never want to go to a traditional wake or funeral again for the rest of my life. This is the way to honor somebody who has passed. This is the way to heal those who have felt revealed the passing the most. Wow. Well that's uh, thank you so much for sharing that story, Charlie and Shelley. So that's somewhat somber note. I want to thank you both of you for taking the time to have this wonderful conversation um and UH with me and my listeners on Psychoactive. So thank you ever so much. Charlie, thank you so much. If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends about it, or you can write us a review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We love to hear from our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories, comments and ideas, then leave us a message at one eight three three seven seven nine six that's eight three three psycho zero, or you can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com, or find me on Twitter at Ethan natal Man. You can also find contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Naedelman's produced by Noam Osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronotsky from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from My Heart Radio and me Ethan Nadelman. Our music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks to a Brio s f Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Deep. Next week, for what will be the final episode of season two, we have my old friend and ally, Steve Rolds, longtime senior policy analyst at the British organization Transform talking with me about models and realities in legalizing cannabis and other drugs. If you are actually in the position of making their forms and drafting the legislations which shape the nature of the market from the outset, you have the power to do things very differently. And that's why you do have the possibility of social ecrity programs that restrict licensing or preference licensing for for impact to communities, and you are able to legislate that or seventy of tax revenue is redirected into impact to communities. And let's let's use cannabis regulations an opportunity to show how drugs can be regulated and how markets can be regulated in the interests of the communities in which those markets exist. Subscribe to Psychoactive now see it, an't miss it.