Possible NOW“You’ll Search Differently in a Year”: Adam Epstein on the Future of Digital Ads
The search landscape is evolving faster than ever. AI is rewriting the rules, and regulators are stepping in. Adam Epstein, Co-CEO of AdMarketplace, reveals how brands can navigate the shake-up, why independent ad tech matters, and what comes after Google’s dominance.
Welcome back to Possible Now. Today, we are diving into the future of digital advertising, competition, and innovation with a true industry trail blazer, Adam Epstein, co CEO of at Marketplace. Adam's journey is nothing short of fascinating. From his early days as a lawyer in New York to launching one of the first Internet sports broadcasting platforms, and now leading one of the most disruptive forces in search advertising. He's seen every angle of the digital revolution. Under Adams leadership, at Marketplace has been pioneering native search, reshaping how brands connect with consumers beyond the traditional wallet guardens. We will unpack the power of native search, the impact of policy on digital competition, and what the future holds for brands navigating an evolving advertising landscape. Plus, we will explore Adam's personal journey, his transition from law to time tech, his entrepreneurial mindset, and the lessons he's learned from building and scaling businesses in an ever changing industry. Get ready for a slightly different, but fast paced, insightful conversation with one of the most forward thinking leaders in digital advertising. Adam. Welcome to the.
Show, Christian, Thank you so much great to be here.
So let's share maybe a kind of secret with my audience here. As I know, and I think it must be around twenty years ago. So you answered a Craigslist ad for a part time legal gig at marketplace and now your co CEO Congress. By the way, thank you. Be honest when you hit the send button on that application years ago, did you ever imagine you would be leading the company two decades later? Of course?
Yeah. I mean, you know, you don't try to compete on as you want to win, So yeah, I've always been pretty ambitious, and I was coming off of a startup that you mentioned, was doing sports podcast live before the iPod even existed, so we were a little early to market. And I got married and my wife said, you know, I think you need to go get a real job. And I was still, I think, optimistic about what was going to happen with that other company, but she was right, as she often is, and so I started hustling around looking for you know, kind of business legal gigs, and you know, the folks here needed some help. So I thought, okay, I'll go there and fix some problems and make into a huge company and you know, try to run it some day, and that's what happened. So it worked out.
That's a bold expectation, to be honest. I like that very much. So I think at market Place at this time was maybe just around four or five years old. So what fascinated you about the company at this time, I'll be.
A lot of it had to do with Jamie Hill. I mean, Jamie was the was the founder, and I mean, you know, he literally said to me during my interview, hey, you know, if you come here fix some problems, you know, you can sit in this chair someday. And you know, he's somebody who has just you know, great, great business savvy. And I enjoyed our twenty year conversation about how to make ad tech more effective, how to stay alive in ad tech takes a really long view of, you know, building a business for the long term, and I think that's a little bit different than other companies that were raising a lot of money and trying to sell quickly. You know, we just had a different approach, and it's one that allowed us to really dig into, you know, what the real problems are and go for the nugget, as we call it, and then try to come up with a solution, and sometimes that takes a while.
So now we've learned that you started in law, what make you pivot to tech an entrepreneurship. I mean it's a different direction for sure. Was that one dedicated moment? Was it just you know, joining at marketplace and you knew that this was the right move into a different direction. Was there a moment you can share with us, you know, what make you done this kind of move over to entrepreneurship and technologies?
Yeah? I mean billing hours and six minute increments, I think was what did it for me. I was working for a big law firm and realizing I was literally selling my time and no matter how innovative or interesting I could come up with an insight and her idea, it was going to still get paid at a zero point one hour. And I thought that's not a great place to be. So you know, went and tried my hand as an entrepreneur and again just too early to a market And then you know, went and found another group of entrepreneurs and joined them with Jamie and you know took another swing. So which I think is part of the journey and maybe why lawyers don't always make such great entrepreneurs that you have to take some risks and you know it's not always going to pay off the first time. And if you learn and you get back up and keep trying. You know, if you've been on a path where it's been you know, a good law school and a good college and a good good law firm and a good clerkship, it's hard to sort of take yourself off that path and say, look, I'm going to go into the unknown and there's going to be some failures here, but you know, it pays off. And I think your twenties is all about doing stuff like that.
Right, Right, And I assume you know having such a legal background helps a lot also in your role today, right, I mean not many are coming from that angle, as we said, Are there any other learnings out of your time at court where you feel, you know, you still have an advantage compared to others, maybe on the exacttive level.
Yeah, you know, I think the cool thing about law school and being an attorney is you really need to be comfortable with ambiguity, and you really need to be comfortable with both sides of an argument. And you know, just this morning, I was having a conversation with someone and I, you know, needed to take the other side of the argument so that they could understand where I was coming from. But then you know, quickly pivot and take their side of the argument as well. And if you can see both sides of an argument as well as the person you're having the discussion with, it's going to be a much deeper and richer discussion. So that's something as a layer, you never know which side you're going to be on, it doesn't really matter, and you know whichever side you're on, you can try to understand it as much as you can, and you also understand that your arguments will be better if you kind of understand the other side really well as well. And I think that helps in business. I think being able to see things from other people's perspectives and helping give words to them where they're trying to sort out what their real needs, concerns, and constraints are. That's a valuable gift and it's something I try to remember to do.
And also the different roles at the same company, right from COO to CEO co CEO, what would you say, what are the immediate differences you know between those roles, especially when you work still for the same company and not changing jobs.
Yeah. Yeah, you know, I don't know how much titles really matter after a certain point. You know, I've never really gotten real stuck on them. My take is you try to solve the problem in front of you, and if you do that, they usually give you bigger problems. And at some point you're dealing with the biggest problems the company has, and whatever your title is, it doesn't really matter. So I don't know that much change due to a title change. I think just you know, a lot has changed due to industry changes and the fact that I've had an opportunity to be a little bit more involved in some of the antitrust stuff that's going on, you know, because I have a legal background and really just know that you can show up to a courtroom and watch the closing arguments and they can't kick you out. And that was something I wanted to do to, you know, see what was going on in our industry after twenty years. So I think maybe just from that perspective, it just under you know, made me understand that there's it's possible to do things that other people might not have even known were possible. So that was it's about how how it works.
You right, right, So you've mentions this now already, and let's talk about policies and competition in the next couple of minutes. What do you saying, how have recent policy changes in regulations influenced competition in the digital advertising industry? Maybe you can give our listeners a first kind of all of you from your perspectives.
Sure, so, you know, the United States, let's just start there, has really struggled with how to regulate digital industries. I mean, you know, let's maybe keep it at that level. And it goes back to Microsoft was found to be a monopoly in two thousand and the remedy did not go well. The judge, I think, had some personal animosity towards Bill Gates, sort of made some comments to the press, you know, tried to break them up, got overruled by the appeals court, and then.
Got kicked off the case.
So then there's another judge who came in, and you know, about ten years later, they sort of figured it out and they didn't break up Microsoft. Obviously. What they did was they separated the browser from the operating system so that other browsers could compete, and of course Google competed and built Chrome, which is amazing browser, and then they started leveraging that browser to get more searches. And then the search monopoly was prosecuted begin with the Trump administration about four years ago, and then the decision came out last August, and now they're trying to figure out how to do the remedy. But we're sort of back where we were twenty five years ago, which is, you know, how are we going to have some sort of market competition in digital where it is so easy if you have the best product to build on that advantage and take monopoly control of not only your industry but several other markets as well. And that's a real important question for us to get right. And I don't blame anybody at any of these companies. When you're not having enforcement, you have to follow your incentives. And you know, the incentive has been to you know, grow your market share and grow your revenue and grow your stock price, and until they can figure it out, you've got to sort of keep doing that. So, you know, I wanted to try to help figure that out. And when you're talking about a digital monopoly, I think what you really are talking about is a little bit less sexy than maybe a breakup, and probably a little bit more effective when you're talking about literally licensing terms, because you're talking about how ones and zeros and data are going to flow back and forth and on what terms, and what's the regulation that's going to guide that, And when one company has a lot of power and the other ones don't, then those terms can get a little one sided. So it's it's really, in my opinion, an opportunity for us to figure out how to, you know, not only make the search industry more competitive for users and advertisers and publishers, but also you know, kind of a guidepost for the entire digital market to understand that there are ways that the courts can help us if they're being thoughtful and creating competition in an industry where you know, it can be winner take all very very easily. So you know, this is something that I'm obviously very passionate about. I'm very interested in. I think it's important. I think a lot of the downstream problems that we see with you know, M and A and even acquisitions not being able to go through because there's concerns that later on they might become a monopoly. I think we can think if we can solve the problem here, there's gonna be some knock on effects that are going to help entrepreneurs and folks in a lot of different related industries in ways that maybe not be obvious when you just look at one single case.
Do you look into the US situation specifically or is it more a global approach?
Great question. So the European Union obviously is a little bit more aggressive on this this. You know, we're talking about US companies though, so their take is to really wait for the US to figure out if they can have a posture or point of view, and then to do a fast follow. So I've been in touch with, you know, the leading folks over in Europe, and they're certainly keeping tabs and eyes on what's going on here. So I wouldn't be surprised that if we get to a remedy that's effective and thoughtful here, that you don't see Europe fast follow on that remedy very very quickly. So that's a great question. I think it really is up to the courts here to set a standard for the entire world to.
Follow right and talk about government policy, do you want to see them playing a bigger role, or that they should step away from that a bit more than currently. Do you want a bigger role for government coming up as policy rules and playing around with that.
I mean, my personal take is generally no, but you know, in the current environment, it's it's it's really zero role because the legislative branch hasn't been able to get on the same page. And you know, for whatever reasons, the incentives there have not been able to align. So it really isn't to come down to the courts to do this. And you know, I think Jefferson said government is best, that govern's least, but they do need to govern a little bit, and so we do need some government intervention. And I think, you know, the judge in this case so far has looked like he's very well studied on the matter. He's you know, got a particular case in front of him. The dj has done a great job, and Google's been very active in this as well. So you know, this might be the right confluence of events to set a standard that you know, can be followed and oppressingly be followed by others. You know, our system is great because you know, you get three bites of the apple. If the executive can't do it and the legislature can't do it, then the courts can can step in. So and if they screwed up, then you know, the executive and the legislator get another shot at it. So yeah, I think something needs to be done, and right now it's just been way too long with nothing, and that's not helpful for anybody trying to make decisions about how to build a business or you know, to set strategy when you know you at least want to know what the rules are. If we know what the rules are and they're clear, everybody can follow them. But when there's there's no rules and it's not clear who's going to make the rules, I think that's actually a worse position for our industry.
So do you tend to say current regulations are encouraging or stifel innovation in the act tech industry? Right now?
I don't think there's a lot of regulations. I mean, I guess privacy, so we don't do a lot of privacy. We're pretty privacy sensitive, so we don't run into that a lot. And other than that, I don't think there's a ton of regulation in our industry. And you know that's going to change a little bit in search. Obviously, we have the decision and we're trying to figure out how it's going to change, and it could be anything from divestor of Chrome to opening up all the data, to syndication or some combination of those remedies. And it's the syndication remedy that we're obviously part of our proposal. So we think that that's basically getting a set of licensing terms, making sure they're enforceable and making sure they're complied with that be sufficient and so yeah, I mean I think there needs to be a little bit more than there is. And yeah, not too cold, not too hot, but just medium, right like a glodialk situation.
So listen to you, Adam. I assume you would agree with a statement saying that major platforms benefiting disproportionately from policy changes and making it harder for independent ethic companies to thrive. Would you agree on that or do you have a different view on that.
I'm pro competition, so you know, I don't know who the winners are going to be. You know, if the syndication MD goes through, certainly we're going to compete. You know, I assume a lot of people are going to compete, and you know, all you really want in capitalism, I think is a shot to win. If you can execute and have a strategy and put together group people and leave them in a way that's effective to the market, that's serving the folks who in delivering value. That's all you can do. Now. Sometimes being big as an advantage, there sometimes not being big as an advantage. So you know, it's not that I think we need to be picking winners and losers. We need to be setting up a market that allows for the market to pick winners and losers and more than just one.
Are there any policy changes, immediate policy changes you would like to see that could create a more level playing field for digital advertisers. If you have a wish list, you know for tomorrow, what would it be right?
You know? My wish list is basically a memo that we wrote back in September, and it has to do with the search industry, which is where we've been for twenty years. So this is what I know, and I don't want to step too far out of the lane of of what I know about I will say that I do think that this, you know, could be a precedent for how digital monopolies are governed, and you know, for creating competition in the space, which is to you know, set fair and reasonable and not discriminatory licensing terms, you know, with a judge and at tendable committee to enforce them. So I think that is a that might be a model that can be adopted other places where you have you know, dominance and control by a single entity with the digital monopoly. So but I don't want to pretend that you know, I know every single ad tech markets in and outs and nuances to have a remedy, I just you know, we think we have an idea that would work here, and we think that, you know, the result will be a much better at search experience for users and in advertisers, and in higher yield for search publishers. And if those three things happen, then maybe there's a way to take some of the learnings from this and apply them other places.
So let's talk about at marketplace specifically. You know, the balance between you know, compliance was evolving regulations and at the same time as at marketplace coming up with innovation and a competitive advantage in this area, how does it work for at marketplace? And maybe it leads us over to you know, nature search, which is your core business, and also to give those who are a bit unfamiliar with the concept, you know, and kind of overview what exactly is native search and how does it differ from traditional search advertising.
Yeah, yeah, happy to do that. Yeah. So, so native search is a media channel and when users are conducting searches outside of a legacy search engine, so we're curating you know, exclusive high value media opportunities with a CPC advertising that really aligns the incentives of the users, the advertisers, and the publishers so that we can deliver relevant ads and then measure the media transparently. And whether that allows us to do is really build longer term partnerships and be a little bit less transactional because we're really investing in these integrations and and you know, in our advertisers are our performance advertisers, so they tend to be forever partners as long as you're able to deliver the media quality and you know, the consumer trends are you know at our back right, the wins that are back on these things. So the consumer journey is increasingly beginning and ending outside of the legacy search engine. You may be yourself starting to play around with AI search chatbots and they're amazing. You know, down to a shopping financing by not pay later app to the new tab page of a browser. Those are all areas where we're leading on modernization. And then you know, the largest advertisers, most sophisticate advertiser in the world are looking to diversify their budgets to find you know, incremental opportunities to reach consumers who are who are expressing intent. So you know, we're a little constrained by more than a little constrained by you know, the dominance of the of the of the monopoly power. But you know that's it is what it is, and you know we talked about that earlier on how that might change. But the the user, right that the searcher, we're all searchers. You can imagine a world in which we're not all having the you know, sort of same search experience, but we can go to different places for a unique and differentiated experience that has you know, Google results alongside whatever your favorite AI search bot might be, whether it's Perplexity or grock or chat GPT. And you know, wouldn't that be cool if like there's different privacy settings that were available and you know, different ad loads. So you know, when you think about a differentiating a unique search experience, I think that's right around the corner, and I think that's gonna be great for industry and it's going to you know, obviously, between AI and anti trust, we think native search is a pretty exciting place to be.
You've mentioned obviously AI and machine learning reshaping digital advertising and of course also native search campaigns. What exactly sets your approach apart from the competition working using AI technology? Is it a dedicated tool service you offer as at a marketplace? Is there anything you can share with us to better understand, okay, that it's a big differentiator, you know, to the competitors in the market.
Look, I mean, I think we use AI and you know in a lot of different ways, analytics to software development. I'm sure a lot of folks are doing that as well. What I'm more interested in is what the consumer is doing and where they're expressing intent. And you know, as a user, you know, I'm starting to use AI to put together a travel itinerary, you know, for a trip I did to Poland in December on a last minute Hey, what's stay the weekend and go to Poland and do a little exhibition with my dad. And within you know, thirty seconds, it had the hotel, the restaurants. I mean, it was a amazing and what it didn't have is links to go and buy and convert on those things. And I was thinking to myself, you know this would really this to me, looks a lot like search and uh, you know, I've expressed intent and I'm you know, getting results, and now I you know, can't go to where I want to go to convert. So I'm really excited to start to fix that problem and allow those basically search engines of the future, the AI chat bots, to be able to get some monetization going and to you know, support more innovation there. So, you know, I think from the consumer perspective, you know, they're finding that there are some amazing resources out there powered by AI that answer their intent in ways that they maybe never imagined before. So that's super exciting to me.
So with consumer behavior, your search behaviors changing also dramatically. So you're saying native search is definitely the solution and the core you know, solving any kind of issues or problems here or modernization.
Yeah, and to allow advertisers to engage with those users. So yeah, I mean that's you know, the definition of native search is really users expressing intent outside of a legacy search engine, and AI would certainly qualify for that. So yeah, I mean we you know, we're very interested in working on innovations to bring modetization there in a way that advertisers can understand the volume and the value and it can be aggregated for them so they can you know, extend their their their marketing efforts to follow the consumer.
Definitely a focus for your businesses in the future. So talk about the future that, let's say the next two three years. Where do you see native search heating too in the next two three years and what innovations can we expect from at marketplace specifically.
Yeah, I mean we've never been more excited. I mean, between the consumers interest in AI and the technology that's coming out every day there from a you know, response to the consumer intent, it's amazing. And then obviously the anti trust remedy that will come down this year. So you know, what we're doing is, you know, we've we've grown internationally over the last five years. We've really invested in Europe and that team's doing amazing. We've rebuilt our platform from the ground up, a platform that's served us well for fifteen years. A little sad to see it go, but you know it's a new era and we need a new platform. And then, you know, i'd say across the board with our team just you know, really have brought on amazing talent and you know, we're in the office ninety percent of the time. We have been since since you know, Sumber twenty twenty. But that's you know, the way that we capture ideas and get market feedback and get insights and go big. So you know, we we've got great partnerships on the publisher side, on the advertiser side, and you know, we're really just trying to execute a really high level, you know, to be prepared for change. And you know, we've we've dealt with change many times in our twenty five years and we think another one of those moments is upcoming, and we know that the more that we can be prepared for it, the better that we can serve the industry.
So are there any other big challenges you know in scanning net to search solutions except the the you know, the policies and regulations. Is there anything else you would say? This? This comes next?
You know, measurement is always a you know, an important thing to do, and we you know, we take that very seriously. We work actually both with our publishers and our advertisers. If you think about it, you know, we're kind of the biggest buyer of native search out there before we sell it to our advertisers. And you don't stay in business for twenty five years unless you take media value pretty seriously. So we're always looking for new ways to be more accurate and transparent with with with with media value measurement. Yeah, and then you know, it just comes down to relevance right at the end of the day. You know, search is really hard because you've got to you know, have an amazing search experience for the user who's expecting a high standard for relevance, and you know, we continue to push ourselves to meet that standard. So those are the two things that I think will never stop thinking about. And then you know, the market forces will do what the market forces do, but we'll we'll just continue to try to get better at the at the core competencies.
Awesome, So what would be your key advice to give marketers looking to integrate native search into their strategy for the first time. I mean, there are not many you know who would do it for the first time, but yeah, just in case. What see the key argument to do this, I.
Mean, the key argument is efficiency at scale to uh, you know, bend the curve on diminishing returns that you're seeing from media portfolio. It's it's a pretty easy argument. It's it's more usually what we've got to overcome is, you know, hey, is there enough scale for me? And you know, I've set up all my processes to kind of work with one or two partners and here's a third partner. But once they understand that, you know, we provide services and it's really kind of a white glove situation with great reporting and transparency into where your media is running. You know, those are all things we've we've worked really hard at the last few years to to really upgrade. So yeah, I mean, it's it's more just you know, being open and transparent about what your objectives are and what you're trying to accomplish, and you know, sharing your creative assets and your post click data back with us because that's what we're gonna used to optimize and you know, if you're used to dealing with a walled garden platform that you you know, view as a potential, you know, threat or competitor. Sometimes the policies that have been adopted are not to have a really close partnership. So we like to think of our advertisers forever partners and we really approach them that way, so you know, having the ability to understand it, you know, there is a different way to do search when you're talking outside the legacy engines. I think that's usually the first thing we need to establish, you know, trust and safety about.
So again looking into the future, but what would be your one bag prediction you have for the future of the advertising and competition in the industry. What is your prediction and maybe what would be your what would be for you the perfect world, you know, looking twelve months ahead.
So I'll say my big prediction is that you're going to be searching completely different and completely differently in twelve months than you are right now, and you know that's going to have effects on the entire digital landscape. So I don't know that everybody's really understanding, you know, what's possible and they're thinking that it's going to be you know, appeals and delays, and you know, perhaps on some of the you know, bigger ticket items there might be, but on the stuff that's impactful, I think you're going to see an impact to our search experience sooner than later, and I think it's going to be meaningful.
So we thought it with some personal questions, and I would like to run it up. Was one coming back to this one more time. You've navigated massive shifts and digital media, legal disputes, major leadership transitions. How do you personally stay resilient and adaptable in such a dynamic industry. I think many are in this similar situation obviously, but with your specific you know, background and experience. I would be really interesting to hear your personal strategy here.
I just find it so interesting. I just think that everything about ad tech, I mean, you know, from getting into it twenty years ago and it was a nascent business, and you know, you go into this little corner of the world that's done nothing but change over the last twenty years, and you know, you either get excited about that and you wake up every day and you say, look, I'm going to walk into something that I'm not expecting and I'm gonna have to you know, work with a team of people to try to figure that out. And that either gets you super motivated or in some cases super demotivated. I mean we you know, I see the you know, engagement surveys and some people are like, hey, you know, we had to switch too much, or you know, we were doing one thing and then we had to do another thing, and you realize that's not for everybody. Like this, this industry is not for everybody, and you know, I think it's really important that you have to have that kind of outlook. And as a result, when you go to you know, folks like places like Possible in that conference, you see a lot of people have that attitude. Are who are up you know, for for for things, and they're resilient and they're curious and they're down to collaborate, and you know that's you know, so it's like the people in the industry are kind of fun because of that. And you know, there's always a new idea and there's a new thing that consumers doing, and there's a new thing the advertiser's trying to figure out. And if you can be a good partner to those folks and listen and share some insights and you know you'll you'll get a little further ahead. So I think that's what really motivates me is is you know, the idea that this has not been boring, and as somebody who's probably a little bit ADHD, not boring is a really attractive quality of this industry and it keeps me super motivated. So yeah, I'm in.
Yeah, I one hundred percent agree with that statement. I like this very much, and I think you could provide a lot of insights, you know, not just about your personal journey, but also about the business you're doing with at marketplace where you spend a lot of your time on policies and regulations and competition. And we will continue that conversation at possible. I'm really looking forward to see you and your whole team coming to Miami again and I really enjoyed the conversation, Adam. Thanks a lot. I'm looking forward to do this, you know, in a year's time again before the next show and see how things developed in the meantime with your help, with your support, with your legal expertise. And thanks again for being on our show.
Christian, Thank you, and thank you from the industry for everything you've done, you know with Possible and really bringing that level of event to the United States into Miami. It was a complete success last year. I can't wait to go back down this year. And you know see the group of people you put together, So it's it's a real service and it's important for industry that folks like your are out there, you know, make these connections and putting on this content. So I really appreciate the time today and rolling forward to h to scene in Miami.
Thanks Adam, thanks for tuning in everyone. Once again, I'm your host, Christian Mohan. If you have a question or suggestion to me, reach out, send me a d M on LinkedIn. If you're courious to learn more about Possible, sign up for our newsletter, or if you want to join us at the Possible Show in Miami, visit Possible event dot com. Possible Now is a co production of iHeartMedia and Possible. Our executive producers are Ryan Martz and Yasmin Melendez. Our supervising producer is Meritis Barnes. Special thanks to Colleen Lawrence mac from our programming team. Our THEMEUZ is composed by Anthony Ketticoli. For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
