From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Julia Katzel, filling in for Samantha Sellenger Morris. It's Wednesday, July 3rd. Fake reviews, bogus conversations with unsuspecting users, and exposed private messages are just some of the goings on at dating app down, according to a whistleblower. Down is just one of scores of dating apps scrutinized as part of an investigation by The Age that found increasing concerns from consumers and experts about the dating industry's conduct. Today, investigative reporter Clay Lucas on the dating apps last ditch attempt at survival as a growing number of users walk away from the apps. So, Clay, you've been researching dating apps and the industry's conduct more broadly. One such dating app, down is a particularly concerning case. Can you tell me about that app?

From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Julia Katzel, filling in for Samantha Sellenger Morris. It's Wednesday, July 3rd. Fake reviews, bogus conversations with unsuspecting users, and exposed private messages are just some of the goings on at dating app down, according to a whistleblower. Down is just one of scores of dating apps scrutinized as part of an investigation by The Age that found increasing concerns from consumers and experts about the dating industry's conduct. Today, investigative reporter Clay Lucas on the dating apps last ditch attempt at survival as a growing number of users walk away from the apps. So, Clay, you've been researching dating apps and the industry's conduct more broadly. One such dating app, down is a particularly concerning case. Can you tell me about that app?

That app claims to have 13 to 14 million users. And the time that I spent looking at it, it was really unclear to me how many of those users were real. How many of them were were bots, and how many of them were just fake accounts? And Down is registered as a company in the US state of Delaware, but all of its employees are in either Taiwan or Jakarta. I ended up talking to the former marketing manager of that company. He talked about some of the really disturbing things that that that app did, but he also talked about how that wasn't just wasn't just that app, that it was the it was the sort of leading edge of a whole bunch of hook up apps, as they call them, um, hook up dating apps. Um, that you can download from, from the Apple Store or Google Play that do some really questionable stuff.

That app claims to have 13 to 14 million users. And the time that I spent looking at it, it was really unclear to me how many of those users were real. How many of them were were bots, and how many of them were just fake accounts? And Down is registered as a company in the US state of Delaware, but all of its employees are in either Taiwan or Jakarta. I ended up talking to the former marketing manager of that company. He talked about some of the really disturbing things that that that app did, but he also talked about how that wasn't just wasn't just that app, that it was the it was the sort of leading edge of a whole bunch of hook up apps, as they call them, um, hook up dating apps. Um, that you can download from, from the Apple Store or Google Play that do some really questionable stuff.

So can you tell me about some of the tactics used on consumers?

So can you tell me about some of the tactics used on consumers?

So the down app, the most sort of, um, troubling for me was that they paid a company. He said it was based in Russia to write positive reviews for the app, hundreds or thousands of reviews being written by this Russian company. And then at the same time, there was a different company writing negative reviews of the other apps in order to push those apps down the rankings in the app stores, which is a really troubling aspect of all this. It's not clear to me how much vetting is being done. We asked Apple and Google what they did around vetting. They didn't really answer our questions. And that was the other striking thing about this investigation that these tech giants, they don't really feel like they have to answer questions about how much they're vetting, about what constitutes a good ranking and a bad ranking, how they elevate them, how they push them down the rankings. So it really adds up to a just a complete lack of regulation, a complete lack of accountability for a lot of the companies that are involved in, particularly in dating apps.

So the down app, the most sort of, um, troubling for me was that they paid a company. He said it was based in Russia to write positive reviews for the app, hundreds or thousands of reviews being written by this Russian company. And then at the same time, there was a different company writing negative reviews of the other apps in order to push those apps down the rankings in the app stores, which is a really troubling aspect of all this. It's not clear to me how much vetting is being done. We asked Apple and Google what they did around vetting. They didn't really answer our questions. And that was the other striking thing about this investigation that these tech giants, they don't really feel like they have to answer questions about how much they're vetting, about what constitutes a good ranking and a bad ranking, how they elevate them, how they push them down the rankings. So it really adds up to a just a complete lack of regulation, a complete lack of accountability for a lot of the companies that are involved in, particularly in dating apps.

Right. And then there were also a slew of Filipino women writing messages to men.

Right. And then there were also a slew of Filipino women writing messages to men.

So a lot of the conversations today are around the use of artificial intelligence in in creating fake profiles for dating apps, or create fake responses when people message message a fake profile. Gabrielle Massaro, who left down two years ago, said that at that point, bots weren't what they were using. They were actually using a team of people in the Philippines to write back to men When they would message a fake profile, they'd send them back, um, messages just to get them engaged with the app and really getting them to spend money with it. And he said this manipulation was done with users thinking they were interacting with a real person, that they might end up going on a date with. In fact, there was was someone that there was there was never any possibility of of them going out with.

So a lot of the conversations today are around the use of artificial intelligence in in creating fake profiles for dating apps, or create fake responses when people message message a fake profile. Gabrielle Massaro, who left down two years ago, said that at that point, bots weren't what they were using. They were actually using a team of people in the Philippines to write back to men When they would message a fake profile, they'd send them back, um, messages just to get them engaged with the app and really getting them to spend money with it. And he said this manipulation was done with users thinking they were interacting with a real person, that they might end up going on a date with. In fact, there was was someone that there was there was never any possibility of of them going out with.

And the other allegation that Gabriel put forward was that down had the ability to read all these private chats and that they were because he had read some himself.

And the other allegation that Gabriel put forward was that down had the ability to read all these private chats and that they were because he had read some himself.

I think a lot of users of dating apps, if they thought about it for more than a minute, would probably realise that it was a good thing that the people who run these apps can read messages, because then they can look into really horrible harassment or, you know, nasty messages being sent. But I don't think there's a realization that this is possible. So I don't think a lot of people think about it too deeply. They just assume that because they're on an app that they got from the App Store, that their messages are private. Whereas what Gabriel told me was that they would just read them whenever they wanted to. They would generally be alerted to that user by someone complaining about them, but he said that didn't necessarily have to be just a problem. They could just read whatever they wanted. When I asked the major apps, the Bumble, Tinder, and hinges about this, I didn't really have the question answered other than that they put users safety first. So again, there was a real lack of transparency about, well, what happens to the data that that people put into these apps. It's not really clear how safe it is, how you know, how monitored it is.

I think a lot of users of dating apps, if they thought about it for more than a minute, would probably realise that it was a good thing that the people who run these apps can read messages, because then they can look into really horrible harassment or, you know, nasty messages being sent. But I don't think there's a realization that this is possible. So I don't think a lot of people think about it too deeply. They just assume that because they're on an app that they got from the App Store, that their messages are private. Whereas what Gabriel told me was that they would just read them whenever they wanted to. They would generally be alerted to that user by someone complaining about them, but he said that didn't necessarily have to be just a problem. They could just read whatever they wanted. When I asked the major apps, the Bumble, Tinder, and hinges about this, I didn't really have the question answered other than that they put users safety first. So again, there was a real lack of transparency about, well, what happens to the data that that people put into these apps. It's not really clear how safe it is, how you know, how monitored it is.

So what else has Downe said about Gabriel's allegations specifically?

So what else has Downe said about Gabriel's allegations specifically?

So when I approached Downe about about what Gabriel had said, they particularly said that of course, they need to be able to read messages so that they can have a safe environment and keep their accounts authentic. A spokesman for the company completely denied that they manipulated reviews or there was bogus conversations, and they said that Gabrielle was a disgruntled former employee. I think anyone who looks at the down app, though, I would challenge them to to tell me that all of those profiles are real because there's there's literally millions of them. The company says that the US is its biggest market, but it does seem like there's just an extraordinary amount of profiles on there.

So when I approached Downe about about what Gabriel had said, they particularly said that of course, they need to be able to read messages so that they can have a safe environment and keep their accounts authentic. A spokesman for the company completely denied that they manipulated reviews or there was bogus conversations, and they said that Gabrielle was a disgruntled former employee. I think anyone who looks at the down app, though, I would challenge them to to tell me that all of those profiles are real because there's there's literally millions of them. The company says that the US is its biggest market, but it does seem like there's just an extraordinary amount of profiles on there.

And clay down may be an outlier here in terms of these deep problems. Russian bots and Filipino women talking to unassuming men. But most of the popular apps like Hinge and Bumble are actually facing a reckoning of their own, aren't they? Because these revelations about down come at a time when Hinge and Bumble's stock prices are plummeting.

And clay down may be an outlier here in terms of these deep problems. Russian bots and Filipino women talking to unassuming men. But most of the popular apps like Hinge and Bumble are actually facing a reckoning of their own, aren't they? Because these revelations about down come at a time when Hinge and Bumble's stock prices are plummeting.

Definitely. So one of the things that Gabrielle, the former down employee, told me that while it wasn't typical of the big apps like Bumble, Hinge and Tinder, it was on the spectrum of what they do. And as those big apps get more and more financially squeezed, they are in absolute crisis. So Tinder and Hinge are owned by a company called match Group. Match owns 41 dating apps in all. Not all of them are anywhere near as big as Tinder and Hinge. But you know, they own plenty of fish. They own Match.com, and match Group has seen its share price fall from $169 US in 2021 during the pandemic to just 30 USD today. Bumble never got as high as that. Bumble climbed to US $75 last week. They were at $10 and Bumble laid off 350 workers, and they have about 950 staff. Um, and they laid them off in February. So the two major dating app companies, they are really struggling to keep user numbers up. Um, but the really interesting thing about what's going on is user numbers might be either steady or falling, but the revenue is still climbing. And so what they're doing is squeezing existing users hard. So the price that you would have paid for a Tinder subscription four years ago, um, choice did a study that said the the cheapest monthly subscription was $7 and the most expensive, I think, with $35. Jump forward four years and you can pay up to $50 a month for a Tinder subscription. The really difficult bit in tracking the cost of a subscription is that it's so lacking in transparency, and young women pay less to subscribe to tender than older men.

Definitely. So one of the things that Gabrielle, the former down employee, told me that while it wasn't typical of the big apps like Bumble, Hinge and Tinder, it was on the spectrum of what they do. And as those big apps get more and more financially squeezed, they are in absolute crisis. So Tinder and Hinge are owned by a company called match Group. Match owns 41 dating apps in all. Not all of them are anywhere near as big as Tinder and Hinge. But you know, they own plenty of fish. They own Match.com, and match Group has seen its share price fall from $169 US in 2021 during the pandemic to just 30 USD today. Bumble never got as high as that. Bumble climbed to US $75 last week. They were at $10 and Bumble laid off 350 workers, and they have about 950 staff. Um, and they laid them off in February. So the two major dating app companies, they are really struggling to keep user numbers up. Um, but the really interesting thing about what's going on is user numbers might be either steady or falling, but the revenue is still climbing. And so what they're doing is squeezing existing users hard. So the price that you would have paid for a Tinder subscription four years ago, um, choice did a study that said the the cheapest monthly subscription was $7 and the most expensive, I think, with $35. Jump forward four years and you can pay up to $50 a month for a Tinder subscription. The really difficult bit in tracking the cost of a subscription is that it's so lacking in transparency, and young women pay less to subscribe to tender than older men.

Why are the stocks plummeting? What's happening there? Why are people disillusioned with these apps and leaving them?

Why are the stocks plummeting? What's happening there? Why are people disillusioned with these apps and leaving them?

So dating apps really came into their own during the pandemic, when singles didn't really have any other way of meeting people. What happened post-pandemic, though, is that, um, a lot of app users realized there were other options out there and they began to become exhausted. The average time spent on one of these apps is 90 minutes a day. Um, swiping, liking, exchanging messages. And Julia, you and I actually went out and spoke to them singles at a singles night to see how they felt about the apps.

So dating apps really came into their own during the pandemic, when singles didn't really have any other way of meeting people. What happened post-pandemic, though, is that, um, a lot of app users realized there were other options out there and they began to become exhausted. The average time spent on one of these apps is 90 minutes a day. Um, swiping, liking, exchanging messages. And Julia, you and I actually went out and spoke to them singles at a singles night to see how they felt about the apps.

Yeah, that was that was quite fun, wasn't it?

Yeah, that was that was quite fun, wasn't it?

So we went out on a cold Wednesday night to a bar in Perham. They looked quite nervous, actually. It looks surprisingly nervous. We're a couple of dozen men and women met and went on a series of speed dates.

So we went out on a cold Wednesday night to a bar in Perham. They looked quite nervous, actually. It looks surprisingly nervous. We're a couple of dozen men and women met and went on a series of speed dates.

So I think the dating apps have ruined dating, I think.

So I think the dating apps have ruined dating, I think.

Mental drain. Like the trying to have a conversation. Um, so.

Mental drain. Like the trying to have a conversation. Um, so.

You swipe on like 100 profiles and then you match with one, and then the conversation doesn't go anywhere and then you have to start.

You swipe on like 100 profiles and then you match with one, and then the conversation doesn't go anywhere and then you have to start.

Over. I quite like them. I often have at least one day a week from them.

Over. I quite like them. I often have at least one day a week from them.

I really can't be bothered.

I really can't be bothered.

Absolutely. I could write you a novel and all the bad dates I've had.

Absolutely. I could write you a novel and all the bad dates I've had.

I'm pro dating apps. It's the way.

I'm pro dating apps. It's the way.

To meet people now. It is just.

To meet people now. It is just.

To steal you away. That's okay. Sorry, guys. Your date Anthony's right there. Good luck. Thank you guys.

To steal you away. That's okay. Sorry, guys. Your date Anthony's right there. Good luck. Thank you guys.

The worst experiences that people talk about is being ghosted. Seems a very common one. When things go well, they talk about being love bombed where there's just affection gets thrust upon them and then suddenly gets withdrawn when that, um, user finds a better option. Sexual harassment seems to be quite a problem as well on the apps that a common one that I talk to. A lot of females that use the apps is being sent a dick pic to the point where one of the apps, Plenty of Fish, last year introduced a badge that women can put on their profile saying no dick pics, which to me seems an extraordinary place to have reached, where you have to put a badge on your profile saying that you don't want to receive pictures of men's penises. I don't know how we got to a situation where that was considered acceptable by a dating app company, but here we are. Yeah. It's nuts.

The worst experiences that people talk about is being ghosted. Seems a very common one. When things go well, they talk about being love bombed where there's just affection gets thrust upon them and then suddenly gets withdrawn when that, um, user finds a better option. Sexual harassment seems to be quite a problem as well on the apps that a common one that I talk to. A lot of females that use the apps is being sent a dick pic to the point where one of the apps, Plenty of Fish, last year introduced a badge that women can put on their profile saying no dick pics, which to me seems an extraordinary place to have reached, where you have to put a badge on your profile saying that you don't want to receive pictures of men's penises. I don't know how we got to a situation where that was considered acceptable by a dating app company, but here we are. Yeah. It's nuts.

Yeah, it is insane, actually. We'll be right back. So I guess coming back to this idea of skyrocketing subscription fees to kind of recoup some of that revenue, you mentioned that you have higher paying users, but does that create a kind of unfair advantage or turning people off even more.

Yeah, it is insane, actually. We'll be right back. So I guess coming back to this idea of skyrocketing subscription fees to kind of recoup some of that revenue, you mentioned that you have higher paying users, but does that create a kind of unfair advantage or turning people off even more.

So, one of the things that I had never realized about dating apps is that the algorithms that all of the apps use sort people into high value profiles, where people are getting a lot of swipes organically and low value profiles where people aren't getting any likes, aren't getting many matches. And what those low value people can do to elevate themselves is buy a subscription. And the subscription will then it seems. And it's hard to know this for sure, because the the apps are so lacking in any transparency. But what it seems to do is elevate those low, low value profiles so that they get presented to users more frequently, which is not the reason that most people get on apps in the first place. They want to be presented with people that they are genuinely suited to or matched to. They don't want to be presented with people that they are being shown because they've paid to be shown them.

So, one of the things that I had never realized about dating apps is that the algorithms that all of the apps use sort people into high value profiles, where people are getting a lot of swipes organically and low value profiles where people aren't getting any likes, aren't getting many matches. And what those low value people can do to elevate themselves is buy a subscription. And the subscription will then it seems. And it's hard to know this for sure, because the the apps are so lacking in any transparency. But what it seems to do is elevate those low, low value profiles so that they get presented to users more frequently, which is not the reason that most people get on apps in the first place. They want to be presented with people that they are genuinely suited to or matched to. They don't want to be presented with people that they are being shown because they've paid to be shown them.

And so, you know, women have reported feeling unsafe on the platforms leading to government demands for an industry code. Can you tell me more about that?

And so, you know, women have reported feeling unsafe on the platforms leading to government demands for an industry code. Can you tell me more about that?

So match Group, which owns Tinder and Hinge and Bumble and Grindr, they and a couple of other smaller dating app companies last week gave the Albanese government a voluntary industry code that they say will help make dating safer for all Australians. They were forced to come up with that voluntary industry code last year by Communications Minister Michelle Rowland. She demanded the code after the Australian Institute of Criminology. A couple of years ago found that three and four people using dating apps had experienced some form of sexual violence. Whether it was harassment, threatening language, image based sexual abuse like dick pics or stalking. Rowland last week told The Age and Sydney Morning Herald that the federal government had worked really hard to improve safety on dating apps, and they're reviewing the industry's proposed code.

So match Group, which owns Tinder and Hinge and Bumble and Grindr, they and a couple of other smaller dating app companies last week gave the Albanese government a voluntary industry code that they say will help make dating safer for all Australians. They were forced to come up with that voluntary industry code last year by Communications Minister Michelle Rowland. She demanded the code after the Australian Institute of Criminology. A couple of years ago found that three and four people using dating apps had experienced some form of sexual violence. Whether it was harassment, threatening language, image based sexual abuse like dick pics or stalking. Rowland last week told The Age and Sydney Morning Herald that the federal government had worked really hard to improve safety on dating apps, and they're reviewing the industry's proposed code.

So I guess, Clay, in summary, there's a bit of a cowboy market out there. Is there anything else the government or the apps can do to make these safer and fairer platforms?

So I guess, Clay, in summary, there's a bit of a cowboy market out there. Is there anything else the government or the apps can do to make these safer and fairer platforms?

I felt like there is just a total lack of regulation in this industry by government, and that it really is time that the federal government steps in and puts in a greater level of regulation of dating apps. They're used by 3 million Australians, and there's been a lot of reporting in the media about about them when they go wrong. So one of the people I interviewed for this story was a Sydney writer called Carly Sophia, and she suggested that a really obvious thing that the app companies could do was require men, in particular, to scan a driver's license or a passport to show that they actually are who they are, because there's a lot of people on these apps that have just got fake profiles, and they do some really abusive stuff, and no one's really paying any attention to that. People report them, they get taken off, and then they just create a new profile. So it does feel like there are some fairly obvious things to do in this area. As simple as you actually are, who you say you are, that would make a real difference to users.

I felt like there is just a total lack of regulation in this industry by government, and that it really is time that the federal government steps in and puts in a greater level of regulation of dating apps. They're used by 3 million Australians, and there's been a lot of reporting in the media about about them when they go wrong. So one of the people I interviewed for this story was a Sydney writer called Carly Sophia, and she suggested that a really obvious thing that the app companies could do was require men, in particular, to scan a driver's license or a passport to show that they actually are who they are, because there's a lot of people on these apps that have just got fake profiles, and they do some really abusive stuff, and no one's really paying any attention to that. People report them, they get taken off, and then they just create a new profile. So it does feel like there are some fairly obvious things to do in this area. As simple as you actually are, who you say you are, that would make a real difference to users.

Clay, thank you so much for your time.

Clay, thank you so much for your time.

You're very welcome.

You're very welcome.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by me, Julia Katzel. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism, subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search the age or Smh.com.au forward slash. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Julia Katzel. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.

Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by me, Julia Katzel. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism, subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search the age or Smh.com.au forward slash. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Julia Katzel. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.