It's the Perry and Shawna podcast on the real life journey with you, reminding you that you are ABBA's beloved child and that Jesus has called you into his massive mission to heal the world.

It's the Perry and Shawna podcast on the real life journey with you, reminding you that you are ABBA's beloved child and that Jesus has called you into his massive mission to heal the world.

This is a great time to reflect. Now, I think a lot of people do this at the turn of the new year. You're looking back on 2024 and maybe even the years that came before that and feeling like I've got a fresh start here. And so we start to get excited about changes that we can make and how we can implement new things in the in the years to come. But, you know, maybe it's a practice you want to avoid because there can be some pain. I've had some painful conversations just recently about things that have been a part of my past that I think, oh, man, I, I just want to do over. And maybe that's what 2025 is. We reflect on what has been and we look forward because we have an opportunity to do some things differently. Do you do some like end of the year reflecting and and making goals for the new year?

This is a great time to reflect. Now, I think a lot of people do this at the turn of the new year. You're looking back on 2024 and maybe even the years that came before that and feeling like I've got a fresh start here. And so we start to get excited about changes that we can make and how we can implement new things in the in the years to come. But, you know, maybe it's a practice you want to avoid because there can be some pain. I've had some painful conversations just recently about things that have been a part of my past that I think, oh, man, I, I just want to do over. And maybe that's what 2025 is. We reflect on what has been and we look forward because we have an opportunity to do some things differently. Do you do some like end of the year reflecting and and making goals for the new year?

Yes. And Shauna that was just a perfect thought. As I think about spending time with you, as I reflect on 20, 24 and years past that, I am at a season in my life now where my kids are both adults and they are living into the things that God has for them as adults. But we have talked frequently about what it was like for them to grow up in our home. And I look at 2025, and I just want to be an encouragement to parents who do have younger kids and even teenagers at home and and share with them some of the things that I could have done differently. I would love a do over, as you mentioned so many times.

Yes. And Shauna that was just a perfect thought. As I think about spending time with you, as I reflect on 20, 24 and years past that, I am at a season in my life now where my kids are both adults and they are living into the things that God has for them as adults. But we have talked frequently about what it was like for them to grow up in our home. And I look at 2025, and I just want to be an encouragement to parents who do have younger kids and even teenagers at home and and share with them some of the things that I could have done differently. I would love a do over, as you mentioned so many times.

So, I mean, this is this is your wheelhouse.

So, I mean, this is this is your wheelhouse.

This is my wheelhouse.

This is my wheelhouse.

You're Emily DeYoung, right? Yeah. You are the clinical director of counseling services at Winning at Home. Yes. Hold a PhD in psychology with an emphasis on child and adolescent adolescent counseling master's degree in social work. And yet there are things that you look back on and go, I would do this differently.

You're Emily DeYoung, right? Yeah. You are the clinical director of counseling services at Winning at Home. Yes. Hold a PhD in psychology with an emphasis on child and adolescent adolescent counseling master's degree in social work. And yet there are things that you look back on and go, I would do this differently.

Absolutely, absolutely. And we're all in this season of growth. Right. Like when I think about the journey towards sanctification or becoming more holy, I am constantly learning and looking back and thinking, how can I do things differently? How can I grow both as a parent and as a follower of Jesus? And so one of the things that has come to mind recently is that when my kids were young, my goal for them when I set out a goal for 2025 or even previously, I would say my goal is for my kids to be independent. And I would love for them to be successful in life. And more recently, I've been reflecting on that thinking, wow, that really was not a great message in the sense that I really would rather have them be interdependent than independent and be willing to confess that they do have needs. But in confessing that they do have needs, that also communicates that they have worth because they're important and they do have needs. And and in that they can build community because we are created for community and belongingness. So for my kids, it was just important for them to know that there's interdependence better than independence.

Absolutely, absolutely. And we're all in this season of growth. Right. Like when I think about the journey towards sanctification or becoming more holy, I am constantly learning and looking back and thinking, how can I do things differently? How can I grow both as a parent and as a follower of Jesus? And so one of the things that has come to mind recently is that when my kids were young, my goal for them when I set out a goal for 2025 or even previously, I would say my goal is for my kids to be independent. And I would love for them to be successful in life. And more recently, I've been reflecting on that thinking, wow, that really was not a great message in the sense that I really would rather have them be interdependent than independent and be willing to confess that they do have needs. But in confessing that they do have needs, that also communicates that they have worth because they're important and they do have needs. And and in that they can build community because we are created for community and belongingness. So for my kids, it was just important for them to know that there's interdependence better than independence.

I have conversations with my kids, my adult kids. I've been having conversations about what we did right, what we did wrong. And as a parent, it's hard to hear what you did wrong.

I have conversations with my kids, my adult kids. I've been having conversations about what we did right, what we did wrong. And as a parent, it's hard to hear what you did wrong.

Certainly.

Certainly.

Yes. Do you have those conversations with your kids? Have you had those? How do you handle that gracefully?

Yes. Do you have those conversations with your kids? Have you had those? How do you handle that gracefully?

Yeah, absolutely. We have those conversations frequently because I ask them frequently, like, what would you have done differently? And because I do want to grow and learn and and sometimes they can be things that can be hard to hear. And yet I really do want to make the best of the remainder of my life and learn from past things, but also knowing that I did my best at the time and I. I believe that wholeheartedly. We did the best with what we had at the time, and I don't need to be a perfect parent. I can be a good enough parent and know that my kids are helping me grow, and I'm helping them grow.

Yeah, absolutely. We have those conversations frequently because I ask them frequently, like, what would you have done differently? And because I do want to grow and learn and and sometimes they can be things that can be hard to hear. And yet I really do want to make the best of the remainder of my life and learn from past things, but also knowing that I did my best at the time and I. I believe that wholeheartedly. We did the best with what we had at the time, and I don't need to be a perfect parent. I can be a good enough parent and know that my kids are helping me grow, and I'm helping them grow.

That's beautiful. I'm so blessed. I'm so encouraged by your vulnerability and your honesty, and I think life is a journey of always wanting to improve. And it does take looking back. But for you, a significant shift was made in, I think a lot of moms and dads in our generation were saying, I want you to be independent. I want you to be successful. But where did this shift happen? Why? Why in your mind has it changed from, I want you to be independent and successful to I want you to be interdependent. And what was the second thing you said? Needy.

That's beautiful. I'm so blessed. I'm so encouraged by your vulnerability and your honesty, and I think life is a journey of always wanting to improve. And it does take looking back. But for you, a significant shift was made in, I think a lot of moms and dads in our generation were saying, I want you to be independent. I want you to be successful. But where did this shift happen? Why? Why in your mind has it changed from, I want you to be independent and successful to I want you to be interdependent. And what was the second thing you said? Needy.

Needy.

Needy.

I need, I need, I need me, need me forever. What about Bob? Have you seen. What about Bob?

I need, I need, I need me, need me forever. What about Bob? Have you seen. What about Bob?

Yes, I've seen one about Bob. The key is not so much success, but significance. And the the idea of significance being that you are valuable. You matter just because of who you are, not because of what you do. And that's a shift for me, too. And and it's not that I didn't believe that before, but I look back now and think some of the things that I did, or the ways that I operated as a parent didn't communicate that as clearly as I would have liked, that there was some conditions, perhaps, that I placed on my kids and made them feel like I. In order for my mom to love me more, I need to do this. Yeah.

Yes, I've seen one about Bob. The key is not so much success, but significance. And the the idea of significance being that you are valuable. You matter just because of who you are, not because of what you do. And that's a shift for me, too. And and it's not that I didn't believe that before, but I look back now and think some of the things that I did, or the ways that I operated as a parent didn't communicate that as clearly as I would have liked, that there was some conditions, perhaps, that I placed on my kids and made them feel like I. In order for my mom to love me more, I need to do this. Yeah.

Well, I don't know how your growing up was like, but mine was really simple. I grew up in a very simple time. I grew up in Sheboygan, Michigan on O'Brien Brian drive. My elementary school was just a stone's throw away, and it was just. It was fun. My my grade school years. I don't think I had really any anxiety. Um, it was the Wonder Years.

Well, I don't know how your growing up was like, but mine was really simple. I grew up in a very simple time. I grew up in Sheboygan, Michigan on O'Brien Brian drive. My elementary school was just a stone's throw away, and it was just. It was fun. My my grade school years. I don't think I had really any anxiety. Um, it was the Wonder Years.

Yeah, it was the Wonder Years.

Yeah, it was the Wonder Years.

Just hanging out with my buddy Bimmer, eating Doritos and Mountain Dew, going to Dunkin Bay, playing up in the Grove, and in my teenage years started experiencing anxiety, but really not my grade school years. But if it seems to you that kids today are more anxious than we were as kids, certainly the case for me. You're right. And so, Emily, why is that?

Just hanging out with my buddy Bimmer, eating Doritos and Mountain Dew, going to Dunkin Bay, playing up in the Grove, and in my teenage years started experiencing anxiety, but really not my grade school years. But if it seems to you that kids today are more anxious than we were as kids, certainly the case for me. You're right. And so, Emily, why is that?

Great question, Perry, and I love your idyllic childhood. That's so beautiful. And I'm so glad that you had that shape your history. But when I look at anxiety, I've been in the mental health field now for 26 years. And I think back to some of those first years. And at that time we time, we talked about anxiety rates in the realm of 10 to 15% of kids who felt anxious enough to seek clinical attention. And over the last five years in particular, really the last ten, but five in particular, we have seen those rates skyrocket to the point of where we're talking about 35 to 40% of kids that feel high levels of anxiety, many of them to the point that they're seeking treatment. So we need to do something. And I and I'm raising the flag and saying there's we can do this differently and create better environments for our kids. And part of that might be fighting against a culture that's set up against them.

Great question, Perry, and I love your idyllic childhood. That's so beautiful. And I'm so glad that you had that shape your history. But when I look at anxiety, I've been in the mental health field now for 26 years. And I think back to some of those first years. And at that time we time, we talked about anxiety rates in the realm of 10 to 15% of kids who felt anxious enough to seek clinical attention. And over the last five years in particular, really the last ten, but five in particular, we have seen those rates skyrocket to the point of where we're talking about 35 to 40% of kids that feel high levels of anxiety, many of them to the point that they're seeking treatment. So we need to do something. And I and I'm raising the flag and saying there's we can do this differently and create better environments for our kids. And part of that might be fighting against a culture that's set up against them.

So how do we do that differently? What we're doing.

So how do we do that differently? What we're doing.

Right. Great question. So when I think about the factors that may have led to our higher levels of anxiety, certainly I think about the Covid years and some of that. But there are also two significant areas that have changed in the last 20 years, one of them being the surgeons of technology. And how just about now, instead of going to the bayou with Perry, yeah, they're going to the bayou on their phones. And and unfortunately, it's the proliferation of cell phones and smartphones even into our elementary school grades that has has made a change in our social structure.

Right. Great question. So when I think about the factors that may have led to our higher levels of anxiety, certainly I think about the Covid years and some of that. But there are also two significant areas that have changed in the last 20 years, one of them being the surgeons of technology. And how just about now, instead of going to the bayou with Perry, yeah, they're going to the bayou on their phones. And and unfortunately, it's the proliferation of cell phones and smartphones even into our elementary school grades that has has made a change in our social structure.

So is that about managing the time on the screens, or is there a way to like, just delay that becoming a part of their world?

So is that about managing the time on the screens, or is there a way to like, just delay that becoming a part of their world?

Right. I would love to champion the work of Jonathan Haidt and his work in The Anxious Generation, because he recommends that kids not even receive cell phones until they're at least 14, and no social media until at least 16 or older. And so I love that recommendation, and I think we can do that. And we're seeing some some shifts, even locally with school systems that are banning cell phones on campuses. And that's that's the shift in the right direction. But the other factor that has contributed significantly to anxiety is just a high pressure, high achievement oriented, performance based culture. And that is rampant in our middle schools, our elementary schools, our middle schools, our high schools where kids are feeling this pressure younger and younger and younger to perform and succeed in areas like academic, sports and arts.

Right. I would love to champion the work of Jonathan Haidt and his work in The Anxious Generation, because he recommends that kids not even receive cell phones until they're at least 14, and no social media until at least 16 or older. And so I love that recommendation, and I think we can do that. And we're seeing some some shifts, even locally with school systems that are banning cell phones on campuses. And that's that's the shift in the right direction. But the other factor that has contributed significantly to anxiety is just a high pressure, high achievement oriented, performance based culture. And that is rampant in our middle schools, our elementary schools, our middle schools, our high schools where kids are feeling this pressure younger and younger and younger to perform and succeed in areas like academic, sports and arts.

So we want to convey to our kids like, you're capable of doing amazing things. Right. Which seems to line up with achievement. Yes. Right. So like we want them to have that message, but how do we not give them the message that, you know, you're you're not you don't carry value if you don't accomplish those things or if you fail or mess up.

So we want to convey to our kids like, you're capable of doing amazing things. Right. Which seems to line up with achievement. Yes. Right. So like we want them to have that message, but how do we not give them the message that, you know, you're you're not you don't carry value if you don't accomplish those things or if you fail or mess up.

Yeah. And that can be really tough because it does feel like you're splitting hairs on some level, because we want them to do their best at the things that and lean into their strengths. And if they're doing well and they're excelling. Fantastic. We can cheer them on. But again, it's the difference between success and significance. And as your parent, we know that parents are still. Research shows again and again, parents are still the most important influencers in their kids lives, regardless of digital movies, cell phones, anything like that. Parents are still the most significant influence. And so when you create a sense of worth in your child, communicating to them that they matter regardless of what they're doing.

Yeah. And that can be really tough because it does feel like you're splitting hairs on some level, because we want them to do their best at the things that and lean into their strengths. And if they're doing well and they're excelling. Fantastic. We can cheer them on. But again, it's the difference between success and significance. And as your parent, we know that parents are still. Research shows again and again, parents are still the most important influencers in their kids lives, regardless of digital movies, cell phones, anything like that. Parents are still the most significant influence. And so when you create a sense of worth in your child, communicating to them that they matter regardless of what they're doing.

Can you give me verbiage like, what does that sound like to convey that? What are the messages that we want to send?

Can you give me verbiage like, what does that sound like to convey that? What are the messages that we want to send?

Yeah, absolutely. When kids are young, it's not so matter. A message of words. It's a message of presence. Okay. And and when you spend time with your kids undistracted, not on your cell phones or behind a newspaper, but when you're with them and communicating to them that they are worth spending time with. And it's not about Out practicing for the next ball game or doing the the spelling words again and again and again to do achievement. It's more like there's a sense of being present, non-judgmentally and with no agenda whatsoever and just being together, and that communicates their importance.

Yeah, absolutely. When kids are young, it's not so matter. A message of words. It's a message of presence. Okay. And and when you spend time with your kids undistracted, not on your cell phones or behind a newspaper, but when you're with them and communicating to them that they are worth spending time with. And it's not about Out practicing for the next ball game or doing the the spelling words again and again and again to do achievement. It's more like there's a sense of being present, non-judgmentally and with no agenda whatsoever and just being together, and that communicates their importance.

If I could go back, I would just have everyday talking points of reinforcing to my kids their worth as image bearers of God. Yes, and as children of God as his beloved children.

If I could go back, I would just have everyday talking points of reinforcing to my kids their worth as image bearers of God. Yes, and as children of God as his beloved children.

I've got bad news and I've got good news. The bad news is our kids are growing more and more anxious. But the good news is that moms and dads, with all the influencers that are shaping our kids today, you are still the most important influencers in their lives. And I'm not just making that up. I got that from Emily DeYoung of Winning at Home. And this is good news that we can make a difference. So what are the ways that we can go about influencing them so that our kids are not as anxious?

I've got bad news and I've got good news. The bad news is our kids are growing more and more anxious. But the good news is that moms and dads, with all the influencers that are shaping our kids today, you are still the most important influencers in their lives. And I'm not just making that up. I got that from Emily DeYoung of Winning at Home. And this is good news that we can make a difference. So what are the ways that we can go about influencing them so that our kids are not as anxious?

Great. Yes. And when I think about anxiety, it strikes me that the anxiety can start, as Perry mentioned, in high school. But it can also start much earlier when kids are young, between the ages of eight and 12 is a common period for kids to see anxiety. So when I look at the last 25 years, there are a couple of things that I've noticed. One is that, um, moms and dads always want to nurture, and they always want to make things easy and safe for kids. And there's nothing wrong with that, right? Like, we want to be nurturing people and and yet there comes a point where there's a tipping point where we may do too much of that. And if we shelter them in the nest for so long that when they leave the nest, they're not quite prepared to do so. And so when I talk with parents about anxiety, it's very counterintuitive, but it's very helpful for kids to experience the things that they're afraid of. And for instance, if they're afraid of going out into into a classroom or raising their hand in a classroom, one of the best things to do is have them raise their hand in the classroom, because when you confront your fears, you gain power over them.

Great. Yes. And when I think about anxiety, it strikes me that the anxiety can start, as Perry mentioned, in high school. But it can also start much earlier when kids are young, between the ages of eight and 12 is a common period for kids to see anxiety. So when I look at the last 25 years, there are a couple of things that I've noticed. One is that, um, moms and dads always want to nurture, and they always want to make things easy and safe for kids. And there's nothing wrong with that, right? Like, we want to be nurturing people and and yet there comes a point where there's a tipping point where we may do too much of that. And if we shelter them in the nest for so long that when they leave the nest, they're not quite prepared to do so. And so when I talk with parents about anxiety, it's very counterintuitive, but it's very helpful for kids to experience the things that they're afraid of. And for instance, if they're afraid of going out into into a classroom or raising their hand in a classroom, one of the best things to do is have them raise their hand in the classroom, because when you confront your fears, you gain power over them.

Wow. You realize, oh, I can do that.

Wow. You realize, oh, I can do that.

I can do that. Yes, you did do that. Look at me. Yes, I can do hard things. Yes.

I can do that. Yes, you did do that. Look at me. Yes, I can do hard things. Yes.

So we can help our kids grow in resilience. If we're not, you know, if they don't walk and live in a padded room.

So we can help our kids grow in resilience. If we're not, you know, if they don't walk and live in a padded room.

We're making.

We're making.

Everything.

Everything.

Right.

Right.

Or solve all of their problems for them. Kids need an opportunity to solve their own problems. And because when they do, they start to feel like they have mastery over situations. So often when our kids come to us and say and talk about either a conflict or or some nuisance that they're encountering, it's helpful to be able to say to them, you know what? How? How do you think you can solve that problem? What might you do to make that better? And putting the onus of responsibility on them creates some confidence.

Or solve all of their problems for them. Kids need an opportunity to solve their own problems. And because when they do, they start to feel like they have mastery over situations. So often when our kids come to us and say and talk about either a conflict or or some nuisance that they're encountering, it's helpful to be able to say to them, you know what? How? How do you think you can solve that problem? What might you do to make that better? And putting the onus of responsibility on them creates some confidence.

I actually did this accidentally, meaning like I didn't have the wisdom that you're sharing with me right now to do this, but one of my kiddos was with the other neighborhood kids. She was probably about six years old at the time, and they were going to do this concert, and they were practicing and doing choreography to a Britney Spears song, and it made her feel really yucky inside. And she came inside and she said, mom, I don't like the words of this song, but I don't want to not be a part of what's happening. And I felt angsty, like, yeah, we're new to the neighborhood. I want these girls to like her, and I want her to be accepted, and I don't want her to be pushed out, you know? So I didn't know, really, as a mom, what advice to give her in that moment. And so I just said, honey, I don't know what to do. I just talked to Jesus and I asked him to give me clarity. So that's what I'd do if I were you. So she went up to her room. She was up there for like, I don't know, it might've been five minutes. It felt like the longest five minutes of my life. I'm, like, scrubbing toilets and cleaning, you know what I mean? Just trying to, like, work out my anxiety about the whole thing. And she came downstairs with her boom box underneath her arm and I said, what are you gonna do? And she's like, you know, because she looked like she was resolved, like she had a mission. I was like, stop, tell mom what's going on. And she said, I did what you said. I talked to Jesus, and I'm going to be a part of the concert, but I'm going to do my own song. And a couple days later, she stood there in front of her like, it was really funny because all the parents grabbed lawn chairs and put them in front of this driveway, and the kids performed, you know, they played the songs and performed their songs, and she sang by herself. Lord, I lift your name on high and did all the motions, like in front of the whole neighborhood. And I was like, I could not have come up with that solution.

I actually did this accidentally, meaning like I didn't have the wisdom that you're sharing with me right now to do this, but one of my kiddos was with the other neighborhood kids. She was probably about six years old at the time, and they were going to do this concert, and they were practicing and doing choreography to a Britney Spears song, and it made her feel really yucky inside. And she came inside and she said, mom, I don't like the words of this song, but I don't want to not be a part of what's happening. And I felt angsty, like, yeah, we're new to the neighborhood. I want these girls to like her, and I want her to be accepted, and I don't want her to be pushed out, you know? So I didn't know, really, as a mom, what advice to give her in that moment. And so I just said, honey, I don't know what to do. I just talked to Jesus and I asked him to give me clarity. So that's what I'd do if I were you. So she went up to her room. She was up there for like, I don't know, it might've been five minutes. It felt like the longest five minutes of my life. I'm, like, scrubbing toilets and cleaning, you know what I mean? Just trying to, like, work out my anxiety about the whole thing. And she came downstairs with her boom box underneath her arm and I said, what are you gonna do? And she's like, you know, because she looked like she was resolved, like she had a mission. I was like, stop, tell mom what's going on. And she said, I did what you said. I talked to Jesus, and I'm going to be a part of the concert, but I'm going to do my own song. And a couple days later, she stood there in front of her like, it was really funny because all the parents grabbed lawn chairs and put them in front of this driveway, and the kids performed, you know, they played the songs and performed their songs, and she sang by herself. Lord, I lift your name on high and did all the motions, like in front of the whole neighborhood. And I was like, I could not have come up with that solution.

Exactly. And so often our kids come up with better solutions than we could contrive for them. So giving them that responsibility creates so much confidence for them.

Exactly. And so often our kids come up with better solutions than we could contrive for them. So giving them that responsibility creates so much confidence for them.

So I know a young woman who's. She's 18, almost 18, senior in high school. She's just got natural born leadership qualities. She's very smart. She was on the debate team, had a job, had to quit her job, got off the debate team, recently, ended up driving to school and just sitting in the parking lot. And the school called the parents and said, where's, you know, where is your daughter? And they said, we don't know. And then they saw and find my friends that she was in the parking lot and just feeling overwhelmed, like, I can't do this, completely paralyzed. And at this moment, she's just very paralyzed in her life. Right.

So I know a young woman who's. She's 18, almost 18, senior in high school. She's just got natural born leadership qualities. She's very smart. She was on the debate team, had a job, had to quit her job, got off the debate team, recently, ended up driving to school and just sitting in the parking lot. And the school called the parents and said, where's, you know, where is your daughter? And they said, we don't know. And then they saw and find my friends that she was in the parking lot and just feeling overwhelmed, like, I can't do this, completely paralyzed. And at this moment, she's just very paralyzed in her life. Right.

And Perry, she represents dozens and dozens of high school students that are feeling such strong pressure and they're feeling like it's never enough. I might be the president of the student council to be taking four AP classes. A leader on a sports team. And yet I still feel the pressure of. That's not enough. I'm not enough.

And Perry, she represents dozens and dozens of high school students that are feeling such strong pressure and they're feeling like it's never enough. I might be the president of the student council to be taking four AP classes. A leader on a sports team. And yet I still feel the pressure of. That's not enough. I'm not enough.

How do the parents help her navigate this? Because they're trying everything. It's just they don't know what to do. Really?

How do the parents help her navigate this? Because they're trying everything. It's just they don't know what to do. Really?

Right. And certainly the kids are victims of culture, too. And our culture is saying, yes, start taking AP classes in middle school or start taking dual enrollment classes as a freshman or sophomore in high school. And what we're realizing is that might not be a great idea. And as a parent, you have a choice. You can either perpetuate it and push it, or you have a choice to challenge it and and ask really hard questions. Is this the best case scenario for my child? And it's not wrong to have a really smart, intelligent kid who has a dual enrollment class. But why does he or she need four classes? Right. And it has to be a point of reference for parents to say that's not realistic mistake and a challenge that even if your child wants to pursue those types of classes.

Right. And certainly the kids are victims of culture, too. And our culture is saying, yes, start taking AP classes in middle school or start taking dual enrollment classes as a freshman or sophomore in high school. And what we're realizing is that might not be a great idea. And as a parent, you have a choice. You can either perpetuate it and push it, or you have a choice to challenge it and and ask really hard questions. Is this the best case scenario for my child? And it's not wrong to have a really smart, intelligent kid who has a dual enrollment class. But why does he or she need four classes? Right. And it has to be a point of reference for parents to say that's not realistic mistake and a challenge that even if your child wants to pursue those types of classes.

It makes me think of, you know, the always like, there's always more like, I got to do more. I got to do better, I got to you got to add to this and you got to add to that, you know, and something's got to give. Exactly. You're either giving up your sleep or you're giving up relationships that are such an important part of, of this time, you know. But that drive it makes me think of, um, Timothy Keller talks about it in Freedom of Self-forgetfulness about Madonna, a statement that she made about like, no matter how at the height of her career, no matter what she did, no matter how many people were listening, it always felt like she couldn't celebrate it, because now, the next time around, she has to do something more dynamic, right?

It makes me think of, you know, the always like, there's always more like, I got to do more. I got to do better, I got to you got to add to this and you got to add to that, you know, and something's got to give. Exactly. You're either giving up your sleep or you're giving up relationships that are such an important part of, of this time, you know. But that drive it makes me think of, um, Timothy Keller talks about it in Freedom of Self-forgetfulness about Madonna, a statement that she made about like, no matter how at the height of her career, no matter what she did, no matter how many people were listening, it always felt like she couldn't celebrate it, because now, the next time around, she has to do something more dynamic, right?

Yeah, it has to be better. It's never enough. Never enough. There's a great book by Jennifer Wallace called Never Enough that speaks directly to this issue. And really, it's a pursuit of contentment and happiness that we're looking for, and yet we're looking in the wrong direction, because that contentment and happiness, we know that that's the source of that. We know that it comes from filling your heart with Jesus.

Yeah, it has to be better. It's never enough. Never enough. There's a great book by Jennifer Wallace called Never Enough that speaks directly to this issue. And really, it's a pursuit of contentment and happiness that we're looking for, and yet we're looking in the wrong direction, because that contentment and happiness, we know that that's the source of that. We know that it comes from filling your heart with Jesus.

So what can we do when our youngins are high school kids, middle school kids, whatever in our lives, whether it's our own children or, you know, a niece or nephew, like, how do we show up in their life and untangle that angst.

So what can we do when our youngins are high school kids, middle school kids, whatever in our lives, whether it's our own children or, you know, a niece or nephew, like, how do we show up in their life and untangle that angst.

That yes.

That yes.

We need to be brave enough to challenge the norm and to be countercultural, swim upstream and say, it's not a good idea to take four AP classes in one semester. That just it's too much, too heavy of a workload when you're doing all the other things, including are you showing up for your community? Are you volunteering a little bit? Are you interdependent in your community? I feel like this.

We need to be brave enough to challenge the norm and to be countercultural, swim upstream and say, it's not a good idea to take four AP classes in one semester. That just it's too much, too heavy of a workload when you're doing all the other things, including are you showing up for your community? Are you volunteering a little bit? Are you interdependent in your community? I feel like this.

Really partners with the conversation that we were having earlier about, you know, perpetuating success or like how you define success.

Really partners with the conversation that we were having earlier about, you know, perpetuating success or like how you define success.

Exactly for our kids.

Exactly for our kids.

So let's praise character traits. Like I see you being kind and or the fruits of the spirit. I see you being loving. You're joyful. You're peaceful. You're patient. Let's praise those things even more than the A's on the report card.

So let's praise character traits. Like I see you being kind and or the fruits of the spirit. I see you being loving. You're joyful. You're peaceful. You're patient. Let's praise those things even more than the A's on the report card.

The way of the culture that we live in does not lead us to God. There is this energy moving us away from God. When we lived in Arizona, we lived in surprise, Arizona. And there's this big community pool there that the kids love to go to. I mean, a lot of hot days in Arizona and the community pool was a bit of a lifesaver. So we would head over there and they had all kinds of playthings for the kids. You know, there's a kind of a beach entry area to the pool where the kids could play in the shallow water and buckets dumped over their head and that sort of thing. There was, of course, the diving boards and the deep end, and but there was this one section of the pool, a small circular section of the pool Fool. That was a little bit separate from the rest, and it was a whirlpool. And so there were jets that were flowing like clockwise, making the water go pretty rapidly in a circle, and you'd hop into the whirlpool and you'd just started going the direction that the water was flowing, like you didn't have a choice. Like if if you got in, you began moving clockwise, and eventually you just let your feet take you the way that the water was going. It was easier than trying to do anything else in the whirlpool. So your feet are going, you're going, the jets are going, and you know, everybody's on board. Everybody's going the same direction. But every now and then somebody would think, I'm going to go the other way, you know, and they would turn and try to struggle against the flow and eventually would become exhausted and then turn around and, and there's almost like this relief of, like when you stop trying to trying to go against the flow. And you just went with the current because it's like so hard to go against the flow. And I feel like living the Jesus way in the culture that we live in today is a little bit like being in that whirlpool.

The way of the culture that we live in does not lead us to God. There is this energy moving us away from God. When we lived in Arizona, we lived in surprise, Arizona. And there's this big community pool there that the kids love to go to. I mean, a lot of hot days in Arizona and the community pool was a bit of a lifesaver. So we would head over there and they had all kinds of playthings for the kids. You know, there's a kind of a beach entry area to the pool where the kids could play in the shallow water and buckets dumped over their head and that sort of thing. There was, of course, the diving boards and the deep end, and but there was this one section of the pool, a small circular section of the pool Fool. That was a little bit separate from the rest, and it was a whirlpool. And so there were jets that were flowing like clockwise, making the water go pretty rapidly in a circle, and you'd hop into the whirlpool and you'd just started going the direction that the water was flowing, like you didn't have a choice. Like if if you got in, you began moving clockwise, and eventually you just let your feet take you the way that the water was going. It was easier than trying to do anything else in the whirlpool. So your feet are going, you're going, the jets are going, and you know, everybody's on board. Everybody's going the same direction. But every now and then somebody would think, I'm going to go the other way, you know, and they would turn and try to struggle against the flow and eventually would become exhausted and then turn around and, and there's almost like this relief of, like when you stop trying to trying to go against the flow. And you just went with the current because it's like so hard to go against the flow. And I feel like living the Jesus way in the culture that we live in today is a little bit like being in that whirlpool.

Yeah. I'm thinking of the intro to The Chosen, these fish going in one direction, and then a fish decides to turn around and go the other direction, and it turns color because. Because the fish that are going one way are, I think, gray. And then the, the fish that decides to go against the grain, against the current turns, goes against it and turns like an aqua color or a teal color.

Yeah. I'm thinking of the intro to The Chosen, these fish going in one direction, and then a fish decides to turn around and go the other direction, and it turns color because. Because the fish that are going one way are, I think, gray. And then the, the fish that decides to go against the grain, against the current turns, goes against it and turns like an aqua color or a teal color.

Yeah. And I'm, I'm feeling that like at the turn of the year here as God is speaking to me about reflecting, I just have been reflecting back on 2024 and wanting things to be different in 2025. And I'm asking the Lord to reorder my desires because I feel like our Like our desires are kind of like that pull of the water and our desires, like all of the culture that we live in, is, you know, triggering our desires to want. That's what marketing is, right? You want, you want, you want, you want, you want. And it's like the Jets propelling. And as we hop in the water, we just go the direction that the Jets are propelling. But I'm asking God, like, I feel like I'm in the place where I'm turning and I'm feeling the water flowing against me. But I'm asking God to reorder my desires so that I can go against the flow.

Yeah. And I'm, I'm feeling that like at the turn of the year here as God is speaking to me about reflecting, I just have been reflecting back on 2024 and wanting things to be different in 2025. And I'm asking the Lord to reorder my desires because I feel like our Like our desires are kind of like that pull of the water and our desires, like all of the culture that we live in, is, you know, triggering our desires to want. That's what marketing is, right? You want, you want, you want, you want, you want. And it's like the Jets propelling. And as we hop in the water, we just go the direction that the Jets are propelling. But I'm asking God, like, I feel like I'm in the place where I'm turning and I'm feeling the water flowing against me. But I'm asking God to reorder my desires so that I can go against the flow.

And the only way to do that is to have a new heart. And because we're in Christ, he's given us a new heart. You know, he says, I will put my spirit in you and you will live. And so we have a new heart with godly desires. And as we feed those godly desires with community and with the Word of God and with all the spiritual practices. We just fuel that heart that God has given us, that new heart that God has given us, that can go against the grain and turn and obey God. We have his heart in us now because we are a new creation in Christ.

And the only way to do that is to have a new heart. And because we're in Christ, he's given us a new heart. You know, he says, I will put my spirit in you and you will live. And so we have a new heart with godly desires. And as we feed those godly desires with community and with the Word of God and with all the spiritual practices. We just fuel that heart that God has given us, that new heart that God has given us, that can go against the grain and turn and obey God. We have his heart in us now because we are a new creation in Christ.

And when we make that decision to turn, you know, there's going to be forces that are working against what we're looking to accomplish, you know, and where we're looking to go. It's not going to be easy. And the Bible has a word for that. It's called repentance. I'm not going to keep going the way that I'm going that, you know, all of culture is going. And that feels so right and good. I'm going to turn I'm going to face the obstacles, and I'm going to fix my eyes on you, and I'm going to keep pursuing you. And there's this really sweet story in the Bible about this happening, a young man, you may know the story as the prodigal son who was going the way of culture and just living it up, but he turned in that whirlpool of all the mess that he was in, and ran towards the father, and the father, arms wide open, ran out to meet him and greet him. So even the distance that he thought he had to cover in coming home was not as long as what he thought it was going to be.

And when we make that decision to turn, you know, there's going to be forces that are working against what we're looking to accomplish, you know, and where we're looking to go. It's not going to be easy. And the Bible has a word for that. It's called repentance. I'm not going to keep going the way that I'm going that, you know, all of culture is going. And that feels so right and good. I'm going to turn I'm going to face the obstacles, and I'm going to fix my eyes on you, and I'm going to keep pursuing you. And there's this really sweet story in the Bible about this happening, a young man, you may know the story as the prodigal son who was going the way of culture and just living it up, but he turned in that whirlpool of all the mess that he was in, and ran towards the father, and the father, arms wide open, ran out to meet him and greet him. So even the distance that he thought he had to cover in coming home was not as long as what he thought it was going to be.

Yeah, I think of Jesus words too. I've come that you might have life and life to the full. Life that's full and overflowing. Not just breathing in, breathing out life, but the life of God. And that's when when we turn and we run to the father and we are embraced by his love, that's when we begin to experience real life, the life that Jesus has for us. Abundant life. It's when we obey God, we experience the life of God.

Yeah, I think of Jesus words too. I've come that you might have life and life to the full. Life that's full and overflowing. Not just breathing in, breathing out life, but the life of God. And that's when when we turn and we run to the father and we are embraced by his love, that's when we begin to experience real life, the life that Jesus has for us. Abundant life. It's when we obey God, we experience the life of God.

Lord, we're coming home. We're turning and we're running. And we know it's not going to be easy. But we know that you're worth it. We love you, and we know we're going to end up in just a big old dad hug.

Lord, we're coming home. We're turning and we're running. And we know it's not going to be easy. But we know that you're worth it. We love you, and we know we're going to end up in just a big old dad hug.

When you're on mission with God. His spirit will prompt you when he wants you to go through a door. So in the summer of 2017, I was driving west on I-94 and started thinking about Olivet College where I went, which was about an hour ahead, and then started thinking about my college basketball coach at Olivet, Gary Morrison. The more I thought about Olivet, the more I felt prompted to go visit Coach Moe. And again and again I felt the prompts. So I drove on to campus and pulled into the driveway of Coach Mo's house on the southeast side of campus, and Gary and his bride were just finishing up some yard work. Gary, at that time 82 years old.

When you're on mission with God. His spirit will prompt you when he wants you to go through a door. So in the summer of 2017, I was driving west on I-94 and started thinking about Olivet College where I went, which was about an hour ahead, and then started thinking about my college basketball coach at Olivet, Gary Morrison. The more I thought about Olivet, the more I felt prompted to go visit Coach Moe. And again and again I felt the prompts. So I drove on to campus and pulled into the driveway of Coach Mo's house on the southeast side of campus, and Gary and his bride were just finishing up some yard work. Gary, at that time 82 years old.

Oh my goodness, how fun. So how many years had it been since you'd seen him?

Oh my goodness, how fun. So how many years had it been since you'd seen him?

Oh, I had seen him a few years before that because we had a reunion with the team and him. So we sat on their back deck in the sunshine among the oak trees. Olivet is very known for its oak trees and black squirrels, and the conversation just flowed. And soon they were telling me about one of their adult children who was really struggling. And that gave me the courage to ask at the end of our conversation, can I pray with you guys? Oh please do. And I can't remember most of what I prayed. It was a number of things, but I do know I prayed for their daughter and right after that they said, we've been wanting to share with someone about our daughter, but we haven't had anyone to talk with him. And I think it was Coach Moe who said, I think God sent you. I don't think he used those exact words, right.

Oh, I had seen him a few years before that because we had a reunion with the team and him. So we sat on their back deck in the sunshine among the oak trees. Olivet is very known for its oak trees and black squirrels, and the conversation just flowed. And soon they were telling me about one of their adult children who was really struggling. And that gave me the courage to ask at the end of our conversation, can I pray with you guys? Oh please do. And I can't remember most of what I prayed. It was a number of things, but I do know I prayed for their daughter and right after that they said, we've been wanting to share with someone about our daughter, but we haven't had anyone to talk with him. And I think it was Coach Moe who said, I think God sent you. I don't think he used those exact words, right.

But he was recognizing that it was not a not a coincidence that you had come.

But he was recognizing that it was not a not a coincidence that you had come.

Yeah, it was so cool. And then in 2018, Jesus prompted me again. And this time I wrote a letter to Gary and Judy just sharing the good news of Jesus in the most relational way I knew how.

Yeah, it was so cool. And then in 2018, Jesus prompted me again. And this time I wrote a letter to Gary and Judy just sharing the good news of Jesus in the most relational way I knew how.

You're so good at that.

You're so good at that.

Well thank you. I mean, I do love to write, and I do love to be real, and I do love to connect relationally. So and after that, I just had peace. And I felt like I had done everything I was supposed to do. Coach Mo passed in 2021, 86 years old, and I just have a really good hunch I do that. I'm going to see him again.

Well thank you. I mean, I do love to write, and I do love to be real, and I do love to connect relationally. So and after that, I just had peace. And I felt like I had done everything I was supposed to do. Coach Mo passed in 2021, 86 years old, and I just have a really good hunch I do that. I'm going to see him again.

I sure hope so.

I sure hope so.

I really do.

I really do.

Yeah. So this is bigger than just his concerns about his daughter. You were thinking, you know, not sure if he was walking with the Lord.

Yeah. So this is bigger than just his concerns about his daughter. You were thinking, you know, not sure if he was walking with the Lord.

Yeah. They. Yeah, they definitely are. Judy's still alive, but definitely people of faith. But not sure exactly. You know, you don't know where a person's heart is. Sure. So, I mean, don't assume. Just lay out the good news. Share the good news. There's a big difference. I think a lot of people can get caught up in, in religion and and Christianity is just a religion. It's a works thing. It's a morality thing. And so you just want to be sure that a person's not stuck in the religious thought. And they know that it's it's not our performance, it's Christ's performance. And that was my point in the letter that I sent to them.

Yeah. They. Yeah, they definitely are. Judy's still alive, but definitely people of faith. But not sure exactly. You know, you don't know where a person's heart is. Sure. So, I mean, don't assume. Just lay out the good news. Share the good news. There's a big difference. I think a lot of people can get caught up in, in religion and and Christianity is just a religion. It's a works thing. It's a morality thing. And so you just want to be sure that a person's not stuck in the religious thought. And they know that it's it's not our performance, it's Christ's performance. And that was my point in the letter that I sent to them.

I love that, and I and I love that, you know, reminder to keep sharing the gospel, to keep sharing the gospel. I, I have such a heart for people who are within the church and have experience with religion, but don't have a personal relationship with the Lord. I just so long for them to come into that, knowing that you belong here, that you're loved, that you're included, that to have the intimacy with God that is ours because of what Jesus did.

I love that, and I and I love that, you know, reminder to keep sharing the gospel, to keep sharing the gospel. I, I have such a heart for people who are within the church and have experience with religion, but don't have a personal relationship with the Lord. I just so long for them to come into that, knowing that you belong here, that you're loved, that you're included, that to have the intimacy with God that is ours because of what Jesus did.

Yeah. So you know that they're stuck in religion and it's more of a performance based thing, right? Is that what you're saying?

Yeah. So you know that they're stuck in religion and it's more of a performance based thing, right? Is that what you're saying?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so how do you how do you go about, you know, introducing them to Jesus rather than religion?

And so how do you how do you go about, you know, introducing them to Jesus rather than religion?

Religion. I think you, you know, I think it's by authentically sharing what it looks like in our own relationship with the Lord. What, what that trying to paint pictures of what that looks like, I think opens up our heart to. Huh, maybe there's more than what I'm experiencing right now. If you are just experiencing religion, you hear somebody else talk about Jesus in an intimate way. And I mean, I've had that. I've had people share about their relationship with the Lord. And I think I want that. I want what you have. There's more than what I'm experiencing right now. And so we get to walk deeper and deeper and deeper into trust and intimacy and love relationship with the Lord. And we never know. Like you said, we just don't know where people are. And so I think being generous with sharing the gospel and being generous with sharing our own story, just like scattering seeds of truth.

Religion. I think you, you know, I think it's by authentically sharing what it looks like in our own relationship with the Lord. What, what that trying to paint pictures of what that looks like, I think opens up our heart to. Huh, maybe there's more than what I'm experiencing right now. If you are just experiencing religion, you hear somebody else talk about Jesus in an intimate way. And I mean, I've had that. I've had people share about their relationship with the Lord. And I think I want that. I want what you have. There's more than what I'm experiencing right now. And so we get to walk deeper and deeper and deeper into trust and intimacy and love relationship with the Lord. And we never know. Like you said, we just don't know where people are. And so I think being generous with sharing the gospel and being generous with sharing our own story, just like scattering seeds of truth.

Yeah. Keep sowing the seeds and talk about your relationship with God in relational terms. And you know, when you pray, people can tell when you pray. I think people can tell when you pray that there's a difference between kind of this religious thing or this relational thing. Yeah, I know a lot of stories where, you know, an unbeliever heard somebody pray and thought, oh, wow, that's that's very different.

Yeah. Keep sowing the seeds and talk about your relationship with God in relational terms. And you know, when you pray, people can tell when you pray. I think people can tell when you pray that there's a difference between kind of this religious thing or this relational thing. Yeah, I know a lot of stories where, you know, an unbeliever heard somebody pray and thought, oh, wow, that's that's very different.

Right? You had shared a story, I think, earlier this week about somebody who was praying for a non-believer, and they were like, what just happened here? Some something Something happened, you know. And then to be able to discover together or to let that person even just kind of like, well, what do you think? Well, I think it was Jesus. You know, Jesus is here. He's in the midst. And yeah, so be generous with the things that God's doing in your life and share the story when you first came to know him, but also the stories that keep happening and keep unfolding as we're walking out. Relationship with.

Right? You had shared a story, I think, earlier this week about somebody who was praying for a non-believer, and they were like, what just happened here? Some something Something happened, you know. And then to be able to discover together or to let that person even just kind of like, well, what do you think? Well, I think it was Jesus. You know, Jesus is here. He's in the midst. And yeah, so be generous with the things that God's doing in your life and share the story when you first came to know him, but also the stories that keep happening and keep unfolding as we're walking out. Relationship with.

Him. Yeah. What Jesus did in your life to start the whole thing. Yeah. And what Jesus is doing now and people will recognize, oh, this is a this is different from what I'm thinking.

Him. Yeah. What Jesus did in your life to start the whole thing. Yeah. And what Jesus is doing now and people will recognize, oh, this is a this is different from what I'm thinking.

There's this place in us that processes information. And so people might know we might know a lot of things about Jesus, but the Holy Spirit takes that information and that knowing on this pathway down the 18in to our heart, where, you know, something just hits you. We've all had this happen, right? Like there's a truth that you've known maybe your whole life. And all of a sudden, it feels like it sinks into this deeper part of you, and it comes alive and it becomes a part of you. And that's that's the work of the Holy Spirit in us. And we want that. We want that for everyone. And so why not just keep telling our stories of the God that we love and walk with every single day to create opportunities like that for other people?

There's this place in us that processes information. And so people might know we might know a lot of things about Jesus, but the Holy Spirit takes that information and that knowing on this pathway down the 18in to our heart, where, you know, something just hits you. We've all had this happen, right? Like there's a truth that you've known maybe your whole life. And all of a sudden, it feels like it sinks into this deeper part of you, and it comes alive and it becomes a part of you. And that's that's the work of the Holy Spirit in us. And we want that. We want that for everyone. And so why not just keep telling our stories of the God that we love and walk with every single day to create opportunities like that for other people?

If you know Jesus, you're on mission with Jesus, so don't overthink it. Don't stress out about it. Don't get paralyzed. Just follow the prompts.

If you know Jesus, you're on mission with Jesus, so don't overthink it. Don't stress out about it. Don't get paralyzed. Just follow the prompts.

Thanks for letting Barry and Shawna walk the real life journey with you. The content from the podcast comes from their live show. Barry and Shawna. Mornings on 89.3 Moody Radio, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Reach out to us by texting 800 968 8009 30. And please subscribe.

Thanks for letting Barry and Shawna walk the real life journey with you. The content from the podcast comes from their live show. Barry and Shawna. Mornings on 89.3 Moody Radio, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Reach out to us by texting 800 968 8009 30. And please subscribe.