Do you want to transform shame into self acceptance?
Do you want to learn how to forgive in order to heal?
Today, Jay sits down for an extremely powerful, vulnerable and transformative conversation with Jada Pinkett Smith. Jada is an actress, producer, musician, host, author and advocate whose career has spanned over 30 years. Jada is also one of the hosts, on the Emmy award-winning talk show titled Red Table Talk. Today we are talking about Jada’s new book is out now called “Worthy”
Jada fearlessly shares insights into her marriage, shedding light on never-before-heard truths, including the 2022 Oscar's incident. We also explore the notion that our relationships serve as mirrors, reflecting our inner selves, and delve into the transformative power of embracing greater love to conquer life's challenges.
In this interview you’ll learn:
How to let go of the old version of you
Why self love is so important
How to remain courageous in adversities
How to turn shame into self acceptance
How to overcome your past and thrive
With Love and Gratitude,
Jay Shetty
In this interview, we’ll discuss:
02:48 Jada On How Writing Her New Book Was A Healing Process
09:48 On Growing Up With Young Parents Who Struggled With Addiction
14:31 “I wasn’t a priority… I felt unlovable”
20:40 *Trigger warning* Jada On Struggling With Suicidal Thoughts
32:11 Jada On Her Journey To Hollywood & Facing Disappointment
39:32 On Her Friendship with Tupac Shakur
42:59 The Difference Between Sexual Chemistry & Energetic Connection
52:54 A Realistic Approach To Love & Marriage
01:03:53 The Complicated Timeline of Jada and Will Smith’s Marriage
01:11:27 On Self-worth & Self-love
01:13:49 Jada Speaks About Jaden and Willow Smith including a *Surprise Letter From Willow*
01:23:58 It’s Important To Show Your Flaws & Humanness To Your Children
01:42:00 Friendship Built On Healing & Personal Growth
01:45:50 Be Okay With Your Victories & Your Challenges
01:49:52 How Jada & Will Are Healing Together
01:52:19 Why Jada and Will’s Marriage Hasn’t Ended In A Divorce?
01:59:09 Romantic Love Is An Aspect Of The Highest Form Of Relationships
02:02:57 Letting Go Of The Romantic Love
02:07:13 Marriage Is A Partnership That Works For Both Partners
02:15:23 Despite Living Separate Lives There Is A Strong Bond
02:19:52 *Surprise Moment* Jay Reads A Letter From Will
02:22:59 Married Young With Different Needs & Visions For The Family
02:29:11 The Fear Of Embracing Our Humanness
You can purchase Jada’s book here https://ourworthyjourney.com/
Episode Resources:
Jada Pinkett Smith | Youtube
Jada Pinkett Smith | Instagram
Jada Pinkett Smith | Tiktok
Jada Pinkett Smith | Facebook
Jada Pinkett Smith | Website
That was a really really it's a really pigful time. I'm sorry. Please welcome Jada pink It Smith. You want out of the pain. Only way out is death. Chris comes to the end of the stage and he looks at me deeply sincerely, and he says.
I also have a letter from Will. I wanted to share a trigger warning before this episode starts. This podcast includes discussions of suicide and self harm. If you're someone you know is struggling with thoughts of self harm or suicide, please seek help immediately. You're not alone and there is support available. Reach out to a mental health professional, a trusted friend, or a family member, or call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at nine to eight eight. That's nine to eight eight. Before Oh, we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to.
Me, the best selling authoring the host the.
Number one health and wellness.
Podcast On Purpose with Jay Shetty.
Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. I'm your host, Jay Shetty, and today is an extremely special episode for me because I'm sitting down with one of my dearest friends, my sisters, someone that I deeply love and admire in this world, and she's gone out and created something that I believe is going to be a gift to anyone who reads it. I've just spent the last couple of months reading through her new book myself, and I can tell you this. It is a journey of hardship. It is a journey of healing. It's a journey of growth, and it's a journey of learning to accept and embrace the discomfort that life brings to each and every one of us in so many different ways. And for that reason, I believe that when you read it, when you take out time to hopefully share it with your friends, your community, maybe you're going to make it the next pick for your book club and dissect it and analyze it and reflect on it together, which I think it would be really powerful for I hope that this book is going to help make you happier, healthier, and more healed, because I really believe it has the power to do that and guide you towards your greatest higher self in all areas of your life, whether it be your career, your relationships, as a parent, as a friend. I really believe that this book has the ability to uplift you as a person, as a parent, as a partner, and ultimately as a human trying to live and walk on this earth that can be chaotic and crazy. So I want to welcome to the show one of my dearest friends, Jada Pinkett Smith, who of course needs no introduction, but there is an actor, producer, musician, host, now author, an advocate whose career has spanned over thirty years. In twenty eighteen, Jada added a new element to her multi hypheneate talents one of hosts on the Emmy Award winning talk show titled Red Table Talk that I've had the fortune of being a guest on so many times. It was one of the highlights of my careers when I was first invited on and on the series, Jada, alongside her wonderful daughter Willow and her mom Adrian, take a multi generational approach to discussions that speak to social and cultural issues, which have encouraged open discussions and dialogue among hundreds of millions of people. And a new book is out right now. It's called Worthy. This beautiful cover made of so many wonderful images and a mosaic of tiny little pictures of Jada. But I want to encourage you all to grab a copy of this book. Welcome to the show, Jada Pinkett Smith, Jada, Jay.
Now, Jay, before we start going, can I tell a story?
You can?
Okay, got it. I have to let your audience know how this book even became. Okay, they have to know, Jay, Okay, all right, So I visit you. I'm here visiting because Swammy's here, right enough, Swamy is here. And you had often said, Jada, you should write a book. I'm like, Jay, I don't want to. So this day, once again, you're like, Jada, you should write a book. I'm like, Jay, I don't want to write a book. You're like, well, you should write a book, Jay, I don't want to write a book. We're going back and forth like siblings. Roda Knough comes into the kitchen because Roddy's making a beautiful lunch for us to eat. He comes, he sits there and he goes, Jay, if Jada doesn't want to write a book, she doesn't have to write a book. And you go, well, I think she should write a book. And I was like, oh, did he just talk back to that? Why? But I'm going to tell you something that was really a moment for me, right because I said, because I'd been pushing back for a long time and you talking to me about it, and that moment, I was like, Okay, I need you to take that home and I need you to think about it because Jay's your brother. There's something here that you might not be seeing. And it was really that moment that put me on pause. And a couple of days later, I was in meditation and it came to me and I said, oh, my goodness, my journey from unlovable to lovable is a worthy story to tell. And I called you and I said, Jay, I got it.
Thank you.
For you were so persistent about it, right, And I just want to thank you because honestly, and I'm not you know, if it hadn't been for that moment, that book wouldn't be here right now, right, And you really were on my neck about it for a long time. So I just want to say thank you because you also made it clear you were like, you made it clear to me I would get a lot out of it, and I have. So I just want to say thank you. It's been such a deep healing process for me in ways that I could have never imagined, you know, and what you said before you know, we even started, and the introduction, you know, just that hope of it's so hard to find authentic happiness in this world, even through my journey, my fifty two years, and just trying to figure out how to be authentically happy has been such an excruciating process, and one of the purposes of this book. It's like, if I can help in any small amount of way, you know, in any way possible to help somebody have an easier or just leave like little bread crumbs kind of like not a blueprint because everybody's process is different, but just little bread crumbs of how to find that for yourself, because it has been really difficult for me. So thank you, thank you, thank you.
Well, thank you for sharing that with me. And I think I blocked that memory out to go. I don't think I've ever tried to stand up against rather than strong my teaching before I think that would, so I've pretended that.
Yeah, like that did it for me.
Growing up reading autobiographies is what changed my life. And I think one of the things that I feel we struggle with today is that people's narratives are being told from so many different angles apart from their own. And when I grew up and I was reading the words of Martin Luther King or I was reading Malcolm X, I found there to be so much power in reading the words directly from an individual. And so even if that wasn't their autobiography, if it was their work, their words, you felt so intimately connected with that person. And I feel that when people move on and we don't have them on the planet anymore, it's almost like you lose this treasure house of experience and memories. And I also think that if someone's listening or watching right now and you're thinking, well, Jay, I would never write a book. I'm not a public figure. I'm not a celebrity. I'm not a musician or an actor. I don't have a career path that means I should be an author. I still think that telling your story, whether it's to your family, your kids is so.
I could not agree with you more. I think it's actually imperative that looking at your life on the page, like you forget experiences, you know, you forget like, oh my goodness, I did that. Oh I've went through that. Oh my god, really I came through that. It's like it's almost like an homage to yourself, honestly, to really be able to look at your life and go, Wow, what a life. I think everybody should take some time, even if it's just one like because even with Worthy, I took one line which was unlovable to lovable. So anything in regards to my life that was on that arc I talked about, but there's so much more, so many other parts of my life. Right. So even if somebody says, you know what, I just want to, you know, write down the happiest moments of my childhood and I want to just look at that on paper.
Right.
But whatever journey somebody decides to pick from from their life and to examine thoroughly on the page, I would definitely suggest that because it is really powerful and it's so healing, and it will teach you so much about yourself.
Absolutely, I can't agree more I couldn't agree more. Let's let's dive in, okay, because that journey of being unlovable and lovable as you're tracing there, I think it's a journey that we all have to walk in our own ways. And I think when you know I met you, I think five years ago. Now, we've just spent a lot of time together in the last five years. Hence we have a deep connection. But when I first met you, I was looking at you from the outside, and over the last five years, I've got to know you through an inner journey and you know, through family as well, and through spending time with your family. And what I found was that we often lose context when you view someone's life from the outside, and when you get closer, the greatest thing you get is context. And so I wanted to start off and this book does that so well. But I want to start off of what does it feel like growing up with a teenage mom who has an addiction? Like I think that that is so formative in so many ways, and it's so easy to forget that that's where you started because of your career.
Growing up with my mother a teenage right, it's like we grew up together. It's almost like having a big sister. I mean even to this day, you know, it's like it's like I get to have two roles in my mom. Like sometimes she's still my big sister, and then sometimes she really comes in as your as my mother, you know what I mean. As you saw in the book, it's like I had all this freedom, running crazy in the streets, what have you, but there was such pivotal moments where Adrian came to the rescue as my mother, right and she still does that to this day. But it was you know, I did a lot of having to raise myself and there are parts of that. There's pros and cons to that. There's a lot of pros. It's like that is the part that made it possible for me to come to La at the age of eighteen on my own and figure this Hollywood game out right, just with no fear, completely fearless, but then also kind of growing up with certain ideas of what I thought love was or certain survival mechanisms that you know, as I got older, didn't quite serve me. But I think that we all have that, no matter what our family background is, you know what I'm saying, We all kind of pick up things that along the way that don't serve us for the entirety of our journey. I tell you, I learned a lot having a young mom at an early age. Really do think that even with our trials and our challenges, that the Great Supreme gave me the mom I was supposed to have and the most perfect mother in the journey that I was supposed to have to prepare me for other parts of my journey. But you know, it was challenging and beautiful at the same time.
Yeah, and I love gamming, so I just want to put.
Them Yeah, yeah, we all love gam Yeah.
But it's really interesting. There was one line in your book that really kind of cemented that feeling of unlovable to me from that time, and you said, there was a time when you felt like you were not being a priority to the two people who gave you.
Yeah, that was hard.
That really hit me because I was like.
Yeah, that was probably really difficult, and like you had two parents who drugs were their focus and the lifestyle that came with it.
You know.
I also talk about in the book when my father told me at seven years old, I can't be your father, and it's just like, Wow, Okay, what do I do with this?
What does a seven year old do with that?
You just kind of internalize it, and you kind of go, Okay, what's wrong with me? What is it about me? That I'm not enough for these two people to look at me as a priority? Because I see everybody else's parents and it looks like their kids are their priority. So what's wrong with me? So you kinda I internalize this idea of not being enough, not being lovable, and it's strange because it's not that that I didn't feel like my mother didn't love me. It's just that am I lovable enough to be the priority? Am I lovable enough for you to show up for me as the mom that I see other moms be, you know? So I definitely in turnalize that, and I think that I took that into the world of like, I'm just going to prove constantly having improved myself, and I'm lovable. I'm lovable enough. I'm lovable enough, And I think that was some of the messaging that I took from my childhood into my adulthood.
And I appreciate you going back to that seven year old self because in hindsight and now, looking back, you can make sense of it, yeah, and you can connect the dots, but it's like when you're actually in that position, it's very natural, as you said, to just internalize it. And I think that what's really interesting with your journey is we all have to develop the emotional skills our parents didn't have. Yeah, And the earlier we do that, the easier and simpler life becomes. But often most of our energy goes in thinking, well, I wish they had them or they should have had them. And when I'm listening to you, what I'm hearing is that it's not even the belief that they don't love me or love me enough. It's the belief that so inside I am not lovable you. Yes, yes, right, it's it's so inside you. It's not even about them.
Absolutely, it's like I'm not valuable.
I'm not.
Yeah, it's because that's your mirror at first, right, But it and it's so complicated and nuanced. Do I believe my father loved me, of course, in the way that he could. I think that he felt the most loving thing he could do was tell me I can't be your father. And I respected that even at seven, because I was like at least somebody's telling me the truth. I've always respected hardcore truths. That is one thing about me. I respect hardcore truths. Doesn't mean I always like them, but I freaking respect them. At seven seven that's a gangster, hardcore truth to tell a child. But then at the same time that seed within me that is like, well, are all men like that? Like if my dad doesn't love me, how is any man gonna love me? I didn't realize that at seven. That's when I started getting into like sixteen seventeen, when I start, you know, having those kind of intimate relationships with men and realizing, oh wow, this area is this area is quite unhealthy, you know what I mean of just like how I viewed myself. I was either giving too much or not enough. I'm either hot or super cold, you know, emotionally, and so trying to regulate and understand because you know, my understanding is that a young girl's first relationship and understanding of love is with her father. I didn't have that at all. So I'm still learning, still really immature in that area of just emotional development around intimacy with masculinity. I know that now, whereas before I didn't know.
That, Yeah you're aware.
I'm not aware. This is just what it is. And then growing up in an environment with so much violence and so much aggression, and oh man, it was like what do you do with all that? And trying to just like unpack all of it to just figure out like, oh, life is about love. It's not about power and ego and winning and losing. I mean, it's taking me fifty I'm fifty two, just now understanding that it's been a wild ride. But you know what, every day I thank the Great Supreme for the journey and just forgiving me the awakenings, the little awakenings that I get about love and just my willingness to have it, know, really wanting to understand what love is all about. But I do have to give my grandmother a lot of credit. Yeah, Marian, really, I had all these different seeds that were planted in me and Mary in seed. That that goes to show you how the legacy of love will overpower everything. It is her. It is the legacy of love that my grandmother instilled in me, and also the desire to search. She always had me understand that the world is full of treasures. Get out there and find them. She instilled that in me at a very young age. And she also instilled in me that I was special. But I was her first girl child. You know, I was our first grandchild. Excuse me, I just said, you know, I was our first grandchild itself. She she really made me think that I could be and do anything, being the child of two addicts on one side, and then my grandmother instilling in me like, no, I'm telling you you got something, kid, you know what I mean. And so just being able to hold on to those seeds that she put within me, and then of course my mother encouraging me along the way to my mother saw some really beautiful stuff in me as well, and she's been one of my biggest cheerleaders and champions throughout my life.
Absolutely, if your grandmother saw you today, what would she say?
Oh, my goodness, my grandmother would be so proud of me. Do it all like with the good and the challenges. She had a very challenging life, extremely and what she was able to make out of her life as a immigrant, you know, child of two immigrants from Jamaica, she became pregnant at thirteen. To this day, we don't know how that happened. We do believe that it was a mistake and it wasn't that she was raped or molested or you know, I never got that from her. I always got that it was her lack of knowledge about sex that created that circumstance, and she had that baby on her own. She was pretty much abandoned, and she was taken in by a family through a foster, a white family who she worked for as a maid, and got herself to Howard University and was able to go to India as an ambassador. Yeah, she went to India and came back and my grandfather, who was studying to be a doctor, asked her to get married. So I think she would be and is very proud of me with it all.
I love. That's that's special to feel that that, yes, to look back. So Jada, at the start of this book, you talk about how you were and this broke my heart. You were talking about how you were planning taking your life, but then how it could look like an accident. Yeah.
That was twenty eleven. That was my fortieth birthday, my fortieth year.
Actually, when I was reading that, I was just thinking to myself. I was like, what were you hoping that would achieve Like, what were you hoping that would solve? Talk us through that?
Yeah, it's funny because when you're in those states, you're not clear. It's not like it's going to make rational sense, right. You want out of the pain, and you cannot imagine your only way out is death. You think in your mind you've tried everything, and you're like, so like, God, I can't do this. I can't keep doing this, and so that's your only solution. And I tell people all the time, you know, We've had a lot of different spotlight of people I've taken their life. People go, I cannot believe it, and I'm like, you just never know what somebody's going through. And there are certain people that have a high tolerance for being able to put on a good face in order to not burden people. But what is really interesting is that when you have a plan, sometimes that gives you enough energy to just keep going because you're like, Okay, I got a good plan, so if this gets really bad, I know where to go. And you're like, Okay, I'm just going to keep trying to figure this out and keep trying to figure this out. But I got this plan and it's really tough because you don't want to for personalities like myself, you don't want to burden anybody. And you're like, look, if I can't figure out how to get out of this, nobody else is gonna be able to figure this out either. That was a really, really painful It's a really painful time. I'm sorry. I'm really grateful that I found a way out, but I think about people who don't find it, and I wish, I wish there was like one thing I could say, one piece of advice, you know, like what would you tell somebody in a situation like that? And all I could ever say.
Is please just keep going, keep trying, keep walking, trust because if you trust, and I know how difficult it.
Is, you know for people who are in it, like it's easy for you to say, but if you keep trusting, the universe will open a door. And I know how hard it is to just wake up and keep it going, because for me it was hard just waking up in the morning. If I could get to four o'clock, I was like, okay, you made it another day, being able to have enough strength to just get up, get out of bed, put clothes on, get through your day. And let no one know that you're struggling. It is so hard. I feel really blessed. You know, when plant medicine came my way, it saved my life. And I know that there's still a lot of whatever around plant medicine. But I'm going to tell you like this, and I'm not saying that that's for everybody, because my way out was a rugged four nights and it was just my thoughts, thoughts about myself. It was just my self hatred. The level of self hatred you have that I have had to want to take my own life and I had to walk four nights to clear up look at be with that level of self hatred. I was like, you want to talk about walking through the valley of the shadow of death that I'm really grateful for that experience because after that one night, I never thought about suicide again.
After the ceremony.
After the ceremony and it was really my last resort, I was like, Okay, this has been brought my way. I'm going to try this and it worked. Praise God, Thank you. That's a really painful place for me still, and just thinking about how many people are sitting in that place, it really breaks my heart, trusting God. That's those moments where I just have to just be like, God, these are your children. You will take care and I pray that God you will provide the door you have provided for me.
Thank you for being so vulnerable with us. I want to give you a big hug.
I love you. Thank you. You've been such a wonderful friend. I really have. You've been by my side through some really tough stuff, only for more time, only for more challenges to come along the way.
Never you know, I wouldn't have had the fortune of getting to meet you, And I'm really glad that you You know, we're so vulnerable with us just now, because I really feel like there's more people than we think that have those thoughts.
Trust and believe it. You trust and believe it. There's people, there's people that you see every day that you would never believe. It's so funny to have that level of strength and that level of vulnerability and just you know, despair and at the same time that level of like helplessness that could drive you to do something like that. But a lot of times we just don't know how to communicate it. I didn't know how.
I no one knew like the will.
Oh no, and they knew I was very unhappy. That wasn't a secret, and people didn't understand why either. So let's talk about that for a minute. The shame that comes with those feelings, and specifically, like everybody feels that level of shame. I don't care what station of life you're existing in. And I would say I'm unhappy and people would look at me like I'm crazy, what are you unhappy about? And so then I just went in even more because I was like, They're right, Look what you accomplished. You've got this great family, You've got a great life. You got the house, the car, this and that. What's your problem? So then that's a hot cup of shame. So then you just I just shut down.
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Yes, just like you have somebody, you.
Have so much. Yeah, that language can be so.
Yeah, and I would suggest anybody don't say that. Don't say that to somebody who's saying I'm having a tough time, I'm struggling. Yeah, this you have that, No, what's going on? Tell me help me understand.
Yeah, as ridiculous as it may sound to you, right to that person, that thought has been repeated so many times. Absolutely, even if it seems ridiculous to you.
Yeah, it can be so farign I get it. But that is somebody trying to step out and talk. So we have to have we have to be receptive. Is not to look at it, you know, and that is like, that's tricky too, because really being able to meet somebody where they are versus trying to meet somebody where you're at, and that in itself is a skill set. Just being able to go, Okay, hold it, what am I missing here? Let me just take a minute, let me blend with you, let me join you. I didn't have that, and it's nobody's fault, you know.
I'm hoping that anyone who thinks anyone in their life is struggling will share what you just shared with us with them to start a conversation to open up that dialogue because I think you just said it now and it brought a thought to my mind that real love or real compassion is when you help someone get to the next step in their journey. Yeah, not in your journey.
Yeah.
And that means being able to be present with them wherever they are. Yeah. It seems like a foreign, alien land to you. I really feel like, if anyone has anyone in their life who's struggling, please send that to them, Please share that with them, because that they need to hear it from someone else who's been there. Sometimes also because if you've not been there, you don't you may not know how to say. And I think that's the other thing, right. The other side is one side is we say, oh, you should be happy, you're fine. The other side is we try and fix it.
Yeah you can't, right, Yeah you can't, And that solve it. Can't There is no right you can't solve it. The best that we can do is, like, you can try to meet them where they are and let's get help. We can do it together and hold hands and get them to someone professional. I will say, it's really healing when someone can join you. It's also having that boundary of understanding too that you can only do but so much as well. A person has to really want help. And that's why I would tell the person that might be struggling to just stay open, to try everything.
You know.
I mean, like I tried ever rethinking until I found the thing, and just keep walking until you find the thing.
That obviously happens a lot later on, even though you start the book with that, but there was a time when you believed that Hollywood, having it all, would do it, would do it, Yeah, even before you get to this point. And so and also what I find fascinating is you grew up where like drug dealing was normal. You were in that scene, you were meeting people. Everyone around you was in that scene. You weren't as from what I gathered from the book, in the time we spent together, there weren't a lot of people who were breaking that mold.
Yeah.
No, what was it that made you you a believe that you could move to la when you were eighteen and break that mold and that you didn't have to fall into the pattern of everyone around you? And at the same time, secondly, what was it that made you believe that that would solve it that that was what was missing.
Thank goodness. Along the way, I had great mentors like Donald Hicckin, you know, at Baltimore's School for the Yards. That was like, Jada, you've got more talent in the pinky of your your little pinky than most people have in their whole bodies. You know that He forced me to go, you know, into that audition for North Carolina School for the Arts, and that's what got me out of Baltimore so that I could just get away from that lifestyle and break that mentality right. And then once I got immersed again into my arts, I was like, wow, I really love this. And once I click into something like my mind goes perro, you know what I mean. And then Pop came to La. Well, he wasn't in La. He was in northern California, and Pot kept saying, you gotta get out here. Is popping, you know what I mean. And now he's like, you gotta come out here and visit, and so I was like, all right, I'm going to get out there. Pop was another one too that was just like you got it, Jada, you got it, And I'm like, all right, I'm coming. So I told my mom. I was like, you got two choices, cause I still wasn't quite sure yet.
You know.
I was like, I could go to LA and see if I can do this Hollywood thing, or I could become a lawyer and take all my dramatics to the cart right into the cartouse. And she said, We're going to La.
Wow.
Once I got to La, I was like, you're here, make it happen. And part of what made me think that I could do it wasn't just about talent, but was just my perseverance and just my go I'm a pitbull when it comes to when I want something, you know, especially in my youth. I'm not so much pitful anymore, but in my youth. You know, once I put my mind to something, I was like, go get it. And I really felt like how everybody else feels, you know, like, yo, once I make it, once I'm rich and famous, all my problems are gonna be solved, you know what I mean. My problems are gonna be solved, My mom's problems are gonna be solved. You know, everybody's probably gonna be solved. I got this, you know what I'm saying. So and that was a trip because that wasn't the case. And I think that that's still prevalent. People feel like once you get to a certain level of success, you are exempt from the human experience, you are exempt from the human condition. And the truth is that is not the case. And let me tell you. I had an existential drop in realizing hold it, wait a minute, hold it, Like my career is popping. I got money, I'm hot, I got every dude everywhere wanting to you know what I mean? Like I can have anybody I want. Why am I not happy?
God?
Now, this wasn't This wasn't the plan. I couldn't believe it, because that was the whole idea. You make it, you pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, you make it in life's great and thank goodness. At that particular point in time, I had pac that I could go, like we could share that together because he was going through the same existential disappointment. He thought this same thing. That was like the beginning of just like, wait a minute, then, if it's not this, then what is it.
It's incredible that you had a support a friend in in Tupac. You had this amazing friend who is saying you've got this you're talented and that can really help. Yeah. And at the same time, there's a whole nother inner journey. Yeah, that has to happen with it. So that was externally, it was empowering, it was inspiring. It was great to have someone believe in you and we don't need that.
Yeah.
And at the same time, it was like this other reminder of.
The inner world was not together yeah at all and being completely ignored, you know. And it would take me years to realize that that, Oh no, it's not just about what's happening on the outside, Jada, But if your inner world is not your foundation, it's all sand castles, you know. I had a nervous breakdown. Then I moved to Baltimore. I get a farmhouse there and I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna get out of La. So I'm making a geographical move, like I just got to get back to my roots, get back to my roots. And then Will comes along and I'm like, maybe that's it. I need a man you know that is like latch onto that. It's like, Okay, that's my new prozac. Will. You know, He's gonna now it's his job to make my life better. That doesn't work either, So the egos just attached to all these different exterior things until eventually, you know, I had to crash into really having to look at the shambles of my inner world and rebuild it and rebuild it. And I say rebuild it because I feel like when we're born, that inner world is intact. But I had to really strip it all down jay to the bear bones, the bolts, and just start inwardly from the bottom and just build. And it's been a wild ride. It's been a wild ride of what that means and what that looks like.
When it comes to your friendship with Tupac, which you speak about so beautifully in the book, and it's so wonderful because we get an insight into him in a way that you don't as just a fan of the music, right, so as someone who grew up listening to him myself. It's like you get a certain perception of someone who's intelligent but then also has this gangster lifestyle and persona, et cetera. But then again, when you get context and you get to know about someone through someone who actually knows them, right, And what I really appreciate, which I found fascinating, was just how you had the wisdom at that time to know that someone would be a special friend without being romantic with them. Yeah, for us about it, because I feel like a lot of people struggle. Yeah, he was obviously into you and when you first met, et cetera, the way you describe it, but it's like, and there's even one point where you dare him to yeah, yeah, And I want you to tell that. But but what I find fascinating and what I want to help people with here is like, how were you able to create and build a relationship with someone knowing initially that it was based on some attraction, right, but actually you knew there was so much more to it. How were you able to allow that to unfold? Because I think so many of us get so scared if we're not into someone, we go, Okay, I'm just going to push them away, or that person eventually tries to make a move anyway. But here it was like this beautiful respect. This you both created that.
Yeah, we both did. We both had the intelligence. You know, we were both really young, So I think I think the Great Supreme for this too. That there was no physical chemistry between us. I mean literally, it was like and I try to explain this to people. It was the same for Pac. It was just like when I dared him to kiss me, he was I mean, it was like ill for us both right, And it was like, how can that be? How can you feel so connected to someone of the opposite sex. There was just this beautiful understanding, you know when you can just sit with somebody in the room and you don't have to say a word and there's just this level of comfort. We just knew each other. The moment Pac saw me and our eyes and I saw his peanut head across the room at Baltimore School for the Arts, it was like I knew him already. We just got each other. I just understood him in that understanding, and he understood me. So we could pull each other's coattails, but we could also join each other. When I talk about that joining, when you can sit with somebody and really feel like they see you, they understand you, they care about you, and they're gonna be there by you no matter what. That was Tupac. He was gonna ride with me no matter what. He was so authentic, and it's rare that that level of authenticity, and he was so he had wore his hard on the sleeve, and there was just this amount of loyalty between us, and I think also the fact that we both struggled with mothers who were addicts, and we tried to compensate for one another of not having that peace, and we didn't boohoo about it. We understood how to fill in the voids without getting all hallmarky about it.
You know what I mean.
And so it was so we just kind of knew how to flow with each other in a way way that was very comfortable. Yeah, it's always hard to kind of explain because it was like, it's almost like he was really a kindred That's the only way I could really explain it. And I feel so lucky and so blessed that I got to know a being like himself in that way because he was such a dynamic person. But you can feel it because his music is still lasting for generations now, absolutely, you know. So he was just a treasure.
Teach us what's the difference between sexual chemistry and energetic connection or authentic connection, because I think we often think that to get close to someone you need that, and here it's not just about the fact that there wasn't attraction or there's more to it in that. I feel like there's a subtle difference in how you were able to accept that there is an authentic connection. But it doesn't have to include it doesn't physical chemistry in order to have a deep energetic connection, If that makes sense, is it?
I actually think in my experience some of the deepest connections that I've had with men have not included sex whatsoever, right, And I think that sex sometimes can cloud things. A lot of things come in that a lot of people don't understand, so you know, whether it's like certain levels of emotional trauma, all these kinds of things. Energetically, the heart to heart spirit space has a level of purity to it where even if things get difficult, like when things would get challenging with Pocinae, we could get to it fast and there's just a level of purity and it's not a tack to I want to make things right with you so I can sleep with you. You know what, It's not that agenda. The agendas are pure. They're more pure and it has more space. It's like, I love you, but you got to live your life.
I can I can be.
Truthful, I can be honest. I think that with us, I could be more of myself because one thing I knew about Pac I never had to worry about, you know, when we had big blow ups, which we did all the time, he's coming back. I never worried about that. I'm never worried. Oh my god, No, listen, what.
It's a year?
What it's a year, a week, three days. I had to love all that Pac was. He loved all that I was, the good and the bad, and he was going to be right there with that and vice versa. That was one of the most beautiful aspects of our relationship. We didn't have to fake it, we didn't have to pretend to be other things, and we could be honest. He could pull my coattails, I could pull his coattails. I could give him all the praise and love on him all I wanted to and not have to worry about, Oh, oh, now we're gonna have to have sex, you know, like none of that, because that wasn't happening. We just didn't have We just didn't have it. I think if Pac had survived Vegas, he and Will would have ended up being really good friends. You know, they would have had a lot to offer one another. And funny enough, Will was the only person when I started dating him. Pac never said anything. If I dated anybody else, Pack had had something to say. He didn't think anybody was good enough, which I understand, right, But when I started dating Will, he didn't say anything which meant to me in his own way he approved, right, right, He didn't say anything. It was was like okay, a not a word which made me believe he approved.
Yeah. No, I think it's it's so beautiful to reflect on that friendship because I think it's so hope giving. There's so many people who you know, sometimes lose out on those kind of relationships because we don't see where else it can go. Oh, there's so much value. There's so much value to that. And there's the you know, the part of the book where you talk about how you never got to be there when Vegas happened, Like you weren't there, You hadn't talked for a year. I think at the.
Time, big, Yeah, we had a big blow up.
What would you have said to him, or what would you say to him? Or what what? What did you want him to know? Or what were you so sure that he already knew? And you're thinking to yourself, I just wanted to remind him of this, what would that be?
I didn't have to remind him of anything. He knew it pak, I adored him. I have no doubt in my mind that he left this world knowing that. Yeah, that's never been the issue for me. We did that dance a lot. Sometimes have blow ups, and we're both very stubborn, and I'll let people read the book to that blow up and what led to that. But I think sometimes what sometimes still hurts is that me feeling like maybe I couldn't do enough once he left, Like I'm thinking to myself, oh my god, what would pack have done? Like if it had been me in a car in Vegas and got you know, he would have read Tavoc. So that ego sometimes comes into play, like just feeling so helpless that he was taken in that way and there was nothing I could do. To this day that gnaws at me.
You know, for what it's worth, I really believe that the way you write, and by the way everyone who's listening and watching, there is so much more to unpack in the book, which I highly recommend you read as you're going through it, and you'll come to this part. But I really believe that the way you honor and appreciate and respect your dear friend in the book is really beautiful and special and it's like it's hard to describe as well, but it's a really wonderful lens into a human is so, you know, larger than life in so many ways.
And I wanted to also kind of there's been so many misconceptions about our relationship because people are like, you know, have a difficult time understanding that he and I could actually be friends. But just wanted to give people such just an insight on, you know, the beauty of our friendship that I just cherish to this day so very much, you know. And I wanted to give people a different outlook just of who he was. And I'll say who he is because he still exists so quick, you know, but so I really wanted that to come across.
Yeah. Yeah, Well, we got to understand him, I think through you through the perspective of not a rapper, not a icon', not a but a human and a friend and like what he was like as a friend. And I think that that's a very intimate way to know about someone. So I love that I wanted to talk to you about you. You mentioned there you were like Will was the only person that Puck didn't tu Puk didn't have an issue. And I love that, and you know how much I mean, you know, I've always been open about it, and we've talked about it, and I met Will through you, and it's like I I've always said that when I met you and the whole family, and when I met him, you were everything in more all of you are everything and more right. And what I mean by that is everything i'd wanted you to be, plus so much more right. And he's that too in so many ways. And I think that it's really interesting because when you're talking about in the book of like, I love the conversation you refer to, and you're like your mom's like, you know, get him off the phone.
That's one of her moments, Yes, exactly.
But what I love about it the most is that it is true that from the outside, as you set it up, it looks like a fairy tale and it felt like that. And what I find really fascinating about this, again and again and again pretty much with everyone, is that there is no fairy tale love anyway on planet on the planet, and you know, in our own little way. I always talk about this with me and Radi too. It's like we'll do an interview together where Radi will tell me all the challenges she has with me, and she'll be crying and upset, and then everyone in the comments will still be like, you guys are saying so cute. No, no, no, But we're not trying to say we're cute. Like this is like real issue, like real stuff that you know, we've talked about it obviously, you spend a ton of time in me and Radi, and so I think for me, what's really interesting is that, yes, from the outside, when you see two incredible actors, performers, artists, talent get together, you're like, wow, powerhouse couple. Everyone projects their expectations. You have beautiful, adorable kids, you know, like Jaden's acting and he's like the cutest thing in the world, and Willow too, And it's like it's so interesting because we also we like to build up our dreams in people, and we like to project our dreams onto people because I think as viewers it makes us believe that it's possible, and we live through people and we aspire for it not that we aspire for the success and the fame, but that we aspire for the like, well, if they can get it right, then I can get it right. And it's not it's an innocent, absolute belief that we all have. It's not a we we all have that inside of us, So we all have this. I know that I had that, like you know, I was searched it the other day and it's a term, it's Disney princess syndrome. And I was like, I've had Disney princess syndrome like myself, like a ton of times, and it's so fascinating to be for anyone who doesn't get the reference. The point is that every Disney princess is always looking for her princes. Oh yeah, And I would say regardless of gender, that's true. Like I feel that way where I've been looking for my princess or my win or my award or whatever it may be. And I wanted you to walk us through, like what were the stages and how would you define the stages as you do in this book, your stages of your relationship with Will, because I feel that that's the part that people get blurry because they're looking at it through their lens. But you both have been so clear about stages of your relationship internally, which I actually think is the hardest part. And so how would you define the stages of your partnership? Will that help people understand like the conversations that you're having behind the scenes, from like being madly in love to you know.
Yeah, wo the stages of getting to the most authentic and it's difficult. So I just want to honor that for a second. Like it's almost like talking about relationships and the romanticism around the idea of relating is sometimes as detrimental as talking about politics and God because it's such a staple in how people look at marriage and relating culturally right, and all of the romanticism around it. And Will and I have been what I would consider kind of the relationship goals, this romanticized version. I had to in my own relationship with Will dissolve my romanticism around what I thought marriage would be should be. And honestly, we really never had what I would consider the ideal honeymoon stage, you know, even though you do have the honeymoon stage. But our relationship started with some challenges, you know, because he was divorcing, and then our life just took off like a rocket ship. We just took on this huge life in our early twenties, and where his focus was really about, Hey, I want to be the biggest movie star in the world. And I knew that going into our relationship, and I knew there would be sacrifices with that, and then along the way, and I talk about this in the book, just having those different perspectives and really trying to figure out how to reconcile those different perspectives and also deal with a lot of challenges. So I think one of the things that I address in the book in regards to, you know, people thinking that we've had an open marriage and we haven't had an open marriage. I talk about starting off pretty much early on in our marriage of having the need for transparency. And that is a big difference between hey, you can do whatever you want, you know, versus like, hey, here we are very young people in this place called Hollywood that has a lot of temptation. Let's have a partnership around this. Let's be very very realistic of what this life is. If we're talking about we're going to be together forever and ever and ever, that means there's gonna be some temptations that come up. Let's be in partnership and let's talk about that. I didn't go into my marriage like I am going to be my husband is never ever ever going to look at anybody else.
Like I.
Just I am just a realist in a lot of ways. I know what it's been like for me right when I first came to Hollywood and I could go into the clubs and have anybody just the level of just like that, just like it's just like you just it's so intoxicating. That's one. Now, what I do believe that what people don't know that I talk about in the book a lot is that there have been several breakups between Will and I. Will talks about it my fortieth birthday, which was a big breakup for us. We were actually looking towards separating and divorcing, and we separated. The world just didn't know. Then we had a reconciliation, and then twenty sixteen came and we had the ultimate break but the world didn't know. And I think that that's where some of the misconception about having an open marriage came into play, because we were living lives as single people and the world didn't know. Over the span of twelve years of just trying to figure out this thing called love and marriage between Will and I, it's been a trip. And I think that even with that entanglement piece, which I talk about extensively in the book, how I played a part in the conception of that narrative of allowing myself to be portrayed as an adulteress, allowing myself to be portrayed as someone that had betrayed Will, and that wasn't the case. We broke up in twenty sixteen. He went on to live a life as a single man. I went on to live a life as a single woman. And then when we had the talk at the Red Table, I was going to go to the Red Table by myself to talk about the entanglement, but Will decided he wanted to come with me, and we were going to then tell the world, Hey, we haven't been together, and this happened during that time. Well, when we got to the table, Will wasn't ready. He wasn't ready, He wasn't ready for the world to know that. I had to respect that. Well, I didn't have to, but I wanted to, But I was ready. I was ready to let go of the persona I had created around myself that had put me in a golden cage. I wanted to let that go, and so I had to stay on my journey. I had to stay on my path while also respecting that will wasn't ready. So I said, you know what, this is my mess anyway, I'm going to take this heat because guess what. The heat is coming either way, whether when we decide to get divorced, when we decided to separate, whatever, whatever, this is my practice. Run strip it down, let it go, Jada, and then let's see what's left. I didn't have to put that particular show out, but I had already gotten myself so ready for that journey for myself and to me, that was moving closer to my freedom than holding back and creating a narrative that I felt like was just going to entrap me more and as difficult as it's been, because the irony is, I spent so much of our relationship having this open communication between the between he and I, creating this beautiful friendship of authenticity and honesty, and so to be labeled as someone who had cheated on him was devastating, But it also put me in a position where I had to learn how to let go of what anybody thought about me and really be ten toes down on understanding who I am and being able to walk in that no matter what anybody thought about me. But I needed that journey for myself.
You know.
It's kind of like that is the walk when they talk about walking on hot coals. It's like creating that level of when we talk about that inner world work and creating that like strong foundation within yourself of knowing exactly who you are no matter what other people think about you. I mean, I've gotten that to a certain degree. And so that was a very challenging moment, and I talk about it in the book because I feel like so many people are challenged in that way of like how can I just walk in this world and be okay with myself no matter what? And I talk about the journey, you know, really extensively in the book. But there have been so many misconceptions about my relationship with Will. But I think that everybody suffers misconceptions. Once again, whether you're head of that PTA and your husband's that doctor, and you're the lawyer, you know what I mean, You're you're like the Crume Delo Crame of your friend group or you know, of your community, and so everybody's expecting you to have a certain kind of marriage. And marriage is a journey, you know, And it's a journey towards learning how to love yourself and learning how to love your partner. And there's not one way to do it. And everybody, I think we do that journey a real disservice of trying to make it this cookie cut thing like no, no, no, you can only do it this way. And it's like each and every person in their relationship they have to look at what their relationship is calling for in regards to what is needed to get your marriage to the love, to the strength, to the understanding, to the friendship and to that unconditional place. And the unfortunate part is that we think once we get married, like somebody's ready made, they know how to love you, even though they don't know how to love themselves. They don't know they don't know how to love themselves. But you better know how to love me.
I want to highlight because I think it's often it can be missed. At least, is you know when you had that conversation on Red Table Talk. It would have been so easy to not have that conversation publicly because people would have their rumors. Yeah, it would blow over and then it would be over. And I'm only raising this because I know how much for you it was part of the work you were doing. Yeah, And that's why I'm raising this because I think what's really interesting is that when someone's trying to do deep in a healing work. Yeah, actually, more often than not, their external way will not make sense.
Oh yeah, first, because it.
Literally looks like you're setting yourself up to fail. Because when you're really trying to dismantle the ego or you're really trying to deconstruct the false identities that we all build up me included all of us. Like when when that is there and it's being deconstructed, someone would look at you and be like why would you do that? Like why do I need to know what? And really I just want to highlight and I want you to share about that that the intention was healing. The intention wasn't to save face or the intention and I know this because we were talking about it. The intention wasn't It.
Wasn't to save face, and it surely wasn't. And I need people to know I didn't ask Bill to come to the table. Yeah, that was not my idea. Will wanted to come to the table because he didn't want me to be there by myself. He had all the best intention yea, and got there and was I think his trauma response kicked in, like I'm not ready. So many people were like, don't do this, and I'm like, nah, I'm doing it.
For myself, for myself because I want to live, because I'm ready.
I don't want this whole thing anymore, this whole data Will, I'm done with that. It was part of the work that I was ready for and it was what I needed. And everybody's in different places in their journey. Also. That's also a dynamic I had to look at within myself in regards to So it's two things. There's this healthy data is like tear it down. I want to. I don't want that persona anymore. Terror I ain't go down. And there was this other part of me that was like, oh my god, I need to pretend. You know, he's not ready. You know he's not ready. My you know, codependency kicks in and I go, this is what I do. I'm the martyr. I can do the martyr thing. So once again, it's both things. It's healing like I'm ready, like I'm ready for I'm ready for the tear down, and then this martyr that's like and I want to make sure Will, as long as you're okay, I'm okay. That's part of my relationship with my mother's addiction that I brought into my relationship with Will. That created a certain dynamic within myself in my relationship with him that I also needed to get my eyes on that I didn't see that that needed to be healed as well. Without that table, without that moment, I would have never recognized that as painful as it was for people to watch, existential disappoint meant in a collective. I'm so sorry. I wish it could have happened another way. I'm sorry that it had to be so messy in front of everybody. I'm sorry, but I needed that what I got to clear up, what I got to clean up, what I got to see, and to be able to sit here with you today and embrace it all and have so much acceptance for myself for all of the choices I've made and people ask me, if you had to do it over again, would you do it any different?
I don't think so, honestly. Like knowing and talking to you, I found it to be so courageous and so full of strength because it was putting yourself on the spot, like in no other way. And I can't even begin to understand how uncomfortable it is. I only can from the conversations we.
Had, Well, you were right there with me day at.
The level of discomfort. Yeah, you were willing to put yourself in in order to let go of an identity, in order to let go of a perception. Like I'm saying it in these words because I just want everyone who's listening watching just to think about it for a second. Like, imagine you had to go in front of everyone you knew, your family, your friends, your school, whoever it is that you're around, your people at work, and you had to share a secret that wasn't a secret between you and the person you're with, but was a secret to them. To just think about that whatever that secret is, right, Everyone has secrets, everyone has something you know, and to do that requires just so much courage and strength, And it also shows the I think you were just apologizing that it was so messy. I also think that it is uncomfortable, like growth is uncomfortable, and like letting go of shedding identities is uncomfortable. And I'm not comparing my experience to you as at all because it's not the same in any way. But I'm trying to explain how like a tiny PDA like my kind of like version of it is still as big. I remember the day I told my friends and my family and my teachers that I no longer thought I could be a monk. And it sounds so small like now that but at the time as someone who would like I was dedicating my life. You've met my teachers, you know I'm dedicating my life. I'm like doing this big thing. And then all of a sudden, I come to the conclusion that this thought in my head of I'm not good enough, I'm not a monk, I'm not meant to be like, this isn't my path, whatever it may be. I think I should get married, you know all the stuff, and you're so you feel so much shame around the fact that you're not good enough and what are people going to say? And even for me, that was just my temple community and my friends and my family, and even then it was like as if someone was ripping my ego out of my chest. Yeah, because that's what it feels like. It feels like an extraction of you know, not that I'm ego less now, but that was such a big way of crushing that part of my ego. And so I just want people to think about it through that perspective. And I'm saying it because I think that we all go through periods in our life where people misunderstand us. We all go through periods in our life where the people we thought loved us and adored us will now be let down. We all go through experiences in our life where we have to let go of someone that we thought we were or what people thought we were, and those are going to be the hardest, most painful times. And actually, if we can learn to be graceful instead of when our friends are getting divorced and we're like, did you hear so? We had that couple of people in my community back at home just got divorced. The whole community is talking about it, and I'm just like, guys, like, we have no idea what was going on for the last ten twenty years. Let's give them grace because you never know, and that could be you. You have no idea when it could be you. You know, we're so it's so easy to to judge and throw stones at anyone and everyone, like you know, And I just really feel that if we have the ability to be graceful and compassionate when other people are doing that, yeah, we'll actually do it with ourselves. And because we're hard on ourselves, yep, we're hard on others, we're hard on others, we're hard on ourselves. And I just for me, I just want to see more people be graceful for themselves and for others because there's so much human experience wrapped up in it.
So yeah, that's my hope too, you know that people can have more grace for themselves. But I tell you, I think one of the saving factors was that, you know, there were no secrets between Will and I. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And there were no secrets between my kids and I. Yes, So the fact that my family was absolutely aware of the entire journey, it was a saving grace for me. Whatever the world wants to think is whatever you know, Will knows he was not betrayed. And my kids know that I did not betray their father, and that to me all that matters. But it was quite a exercise of having to walk in the world like that, you know, having people think that that's what happened. Just having that exercise in that way has been such a healing factor for me of just the level of self love, the level of self worth that I have because of what that experience has offered me. And I'm not saying that anybody else should do it on that level, you know, But what I am saying is that there are ego deaths that have to occur in order to get to a more authentic place of self worth and self love.
And I want to talk about the little gurus, as you call them in the book. We start with Trey, who you know this book is dedicated to your daughter and the daughters of the people that read it, and to your sons yea, and to the sons of the people that read it. And I wonder, what is it that you think you've learned from Trey, that you've been taught by Jaden and that you've been taught by Willow in your journey with them all Because you have such a whenever I've seen you with them. You have such a deep, beautiful, rich relationship video kids. We were talking about that earlier. Yeah, I would love to know what is it that each of them have taught you.
Trey, he has such an enormous heart. And I think what I love about Trey is his ability to meet people, join people where they are, ability to join me. He has a way of seeing the best in people, no matter what, the best in circumstances, no matter what, and even in his most challenging times challenging relationships, having the willingness to see the person's spirit versus personality. And he's always reminded me of that. You know, mom, you know that person? You know what I mean? And I'm like, you know what trade you?
Right?
He and I have kind of been walking parallel. We'll look over at each other and go, I see you, and he goes, I see you. You know, you know what I mean? And so you know, we're the two in the family that's really been on a intense walk spiritually. And he has so much perseverance in regards to understanding God, finding his way understanding life. I don't know if you know, he's just such a he's such a light, you know, so iron sharpens iron. He'll walk in the kitchen and go, mom, look at me, what do you think I'm feeling today? You know what I mean. Or he'll look at me and go, wow, you know you're you're like bright, what's going on with you? Like he can just see me and he can see people, you know, and I'd be like, wow, how did you see that? This is happening? This is that He's like really, you know, and he's he's just he's just such a light. He's just such a joy. And so he just is always reminding me to look for the best in people. And I just adore him and is why he's a bonus, you know. And then Willow, Oh, she's such a fireball. I mean she she is like the mirror of the fire of my soul when I tell you, she is the mirror of that, Like I get to see myself in her in so many ways. What I love most about Willow is that she is to the point, you know what I mean, she is like she doesn't have a whole lot of play play. She's just like no, no, she just hits it on the mark. Where sometimes I can be very flowery, you know, very gentle. And I also love how she loves me. She teaches me a lot about love. She teaches me a lot about When I talked about being able to join like, she teaches me a lot about how to join her and how to join others in ways that I'm not used to. I know how to join others in ways that I'm used to, but me having to learn how to join her in a certain manner. I've had to come out of my comfort zone and really be like, oh man, I'm very deficient here, and her patience with me with that deficiency, She's so patient with me. She's like, it's okay, Mom. You know sometimes that I don't need you to talk to me. Mom, just hold me. I'm like, oh, that's all you want me to do? You just want me, That's all. I'm not used to that. You know, I don't come from a family where affection. You know that we don't. We don't hug each other and hold each other. That's not what we did. But willowy, Ma, I don't need your advice. I just want to sit here, hold me while I cry. And then I have to learn how to I've had to learn she's taught me how to hold tears and really be able to join with those tears and not rebel and you know, like have them repel because then they bring up my tears. And so she's learned. She's taught me how to love my tears too, you know, those places within myself that I haven't always been willing to go, you know. And now I cry all the time, you know, And I call it the thawing because for so long I wasn't allowed. I didn't allow myself to cry, you know. So she's taught me that. And then there's Jaden. Oh man, Jaden, he's just walking joy. I mean he comes in the room, it's just like Jaden, you know, he's just walking joy. But he was like that when I carried him. I was the happiest I had ever been in my life when I was pregnant with Jaden. And I think that I had a lot to do with the energy that he carries. He has the capacity to love everything, and that is difficulty, challenging people, challenging situations. He has the capacity to love it all and find the beauty in it. And I'm talking about sincerely, and it is like that's a god given gift. That's not you can't teach that. So he just I was sitting out, you know, I was just talking to him the other day and I was just like, oh, I was reading this book Emotionally Immature Parents, and I was like, Jane, you got to read this book. Your mother has been an emotionally imstry parents. I said, you got to read this book. And he said, you know what, ma, He said, things from Afar can look a certain way, but when you put a microscope up on something and you look at it close up, he was like, it is such a weird shape, weird beautiful shapes of things, but you get to see the intricacies of it and it's so much more. And that's what you are to me. You're like this beautiful, intricate organism that I love so much. Don't ever apologize to me again, you know what I mean. And that's just how his mind works, you know. And he comes over and he hugs me and he kisses me on my forehead, you know what I'm saying. And he's like, you gave birth to me that, don't ever apologize to me, you know. And he's like, and I'm not reading our book I'm gonna get you the book anyway. You know, I'm always apologizing to my kids about all kinds of things. I think it's so important for parents to apologize, say sorry. You know, I've gotten in the habit every little like if I misunderstand something, or if there's like this like little glip, you know what, I didn't quite get that, then I'm so sorry. I apologize. I'm gonna do better next time with that, and thank you for your patience. I think it's important, you know. I wish my father had apologized to me more. My mom apologizes too. I actually learned that from her. She's apologized a lot, and I actually said the same thing to her now that i'm thinking about it, apologizing.
But isn't that that those are the best relationships where someone does something yeah, and the other person is like, it's fine, yeah, And that's what kind of It's that relationship where internally you're happy you heard it, but you know you didn't need to the person still felt the need to say it, and it creates so much clarity. And you know, when I told Willow you were coming on today, she sent a little note oh, because I was I was talking to her about it, and I was talking to her about the book, and so she sent this little note that I want to read to you.
If that's okay, Oh my god, let me keep my napkin.
So she said, this is from Willow and Willow. If I don't read it as you would in your amazing voice, then please forgive me. I'm also apologizing to you in advance. Mum. I am incomprehensibly proud of you and all of the inner excavation you you have done during the writing of your book. There were many times during the process where you would read me sections and deep emotions would come up for us. Both learning from you through learning about you is one of the biggest joys of my life. You never cease to inspire me with how wide you've opened your heart, not only to the immense joys of life, but also to the deep uncertainties and shadows with equal gratitude and grace. You have shown me true tenderness and true strength come from the same place within, and that is something that I aspire to show others. Thank you for loving me. I'm so grateful for you.
And the Guru. That's the little Guru right there, there, it is.
She loves you so much, and they will obviously love you so much. But when I read that, and when I was reflecting on it, is just and as me and Roddy always talk about this, because we've watched you in Willow so many times together and it has been so inspiring to us to see that connection you both have and the openness you have with your kids and how well they understand you. And you know, as you were just saying, you always apologizing, but that's what they're seeing. Yeah, they see that because you're so willing to share with them.
Yeah, I don't keep secrets from my kids. I've let them see my deepest flaws. And I think that's important. I mean, and not in the way that we have to be careful with that too, but I mean just as far as like it's okay to be human, not being afraid to show my humanness, because that's the one thing with my mother that I have so much gratitude for that I could see her as a human being and my relationship with you know, my mother being an addict, and me being able to relate to her as not just my mother, but as a woman, you know, as a person. And I think that was one aspect that I felt like I really needed to bring into my relationship with my kids for them to see me as a person ran this together.
It comes across. When I've witnessed it. It's the most beautiful thing. I could only ever dreamed that when RATHER and I are able to do that, that you know that we you will have what you have. It's really special. It's remarkable to watch in practice. And I mean that, you know, the message says it all, But Jedda, I wanted you know I throughout this book and even in this interview today. I think I was going to save this to say it later, but I'm going to say now. I've been sharing spirituality with people in different ways since I was eighteen years old, and I was so young and immature then in my spirituality, and I still am today and that will always continue. And I've just been fortunate to sit at the feet of incredible teachers and mentors, and so any realization I've had earlier than I should have had, it is because of sitting with elders, and you know, sitting with the teachers I've introduced you to. And I've rarely met someone who's as eager for healing as you. I don't think I've met a family that's more. We're healing is the top priority, right And it's such an interesting thing to perceive in someone because you can tell by someone's language and when their eyes light up and their body language changes as to what they are motivated by. And ever since I met you, from the first day we met backstage green room for Red Table Thought Series two launch day event, I was getting to host and interview you, Dan and Willow, and I remember you'd ask me like, what did you learn as a monk? And I'd said to you, I was. I was giving to you the what I did learn as practices, but I wasn't getting to the root of it. So I was explaining the practices like gratitude and meditation and mindfulness and service, and were you were kind of just like, oh, that's cool, like you know it was. And then I'd said to you because I felt a inner voice say that I should, and it was truly guided from within, And I said to you, I learned how to love God, And that was potentially the first time I'd even said that in that way to someone. And you, just like your whole body language and your eyes and everything just changed, and everyone else was late. So we were just talking and you were like, I want to learn how to love God too. And you'd obviously already been on that journey for decades, like you know, and you talk about in the book where you started with the Ethical Society, right, you know, that had been a journey that had been a part of your journey forever. But it was so interesting to me to meet someone and an entire family who is more focused on healing and growth and and God in their own way, in your in your own language, and your own in your own ways, than than anything else. I've never we've never had a conversation that steers too far away from any of those things, which which says so, and we have fun and we have a good time and everything, but that and the reason I raised that is because I also saw that when you were talking about Oscar's night in the book, you referred to as the holy slab and the holy joke, And you've always looked at everything through the lens of how is this bringing me closer to the divine? I remember one conversation we had about the femine in divine, and I'll never forget it. Because we at this point we'd been doing we've been talking twice a week for like a year and a half or something, and we were talking about a specific aspect of the divine feminine, which is often left out or forgotten or hidden. I had never seen anyone respond in a way so sincerely and genuinely to a vision of God as you did, and you said, with tears in your eyes, You're like, I've been looking for this God for twenty five years. And I remember just going like I could just see the genuineness and the sincerity in your eyes, and I was just like, wow, like I hope I can love like that one day, Like that's actually what I felt like, as it was so inspiring. And I know that I've got closer to Divinity through our work, and that's because of your seeking. And you've pulled me closer to the divine through your seeking, which you've given me the greatest gift, like for years and years and years ever since I've known you, and it's your ability to look for that. And so I wanted to talk to you about you know, I think when it all went down on Oscar's Night and you talk about this in the book and so I want to leave everyone to read about it in full. But the perception was that you were so offended that you'd kind of urge this action, which is bizarre in and of itself for so many reasons that you lay out in the book. But I want to hear from you, like, what were you actually hurt by about the condition that you were going through? And in that gap between what we saw and what we didn't get to see, which everyone had their own theory on what was actually your thought space, where were you?
Let me start with that was a really layered moment. Let me start with also that there was so much that people didn't know in regards to what was happening with Will and I at that time. And I will leave for people to get the book because there's so much history and in present. Yeah, break it down, break it down, and I did exactly. It's so much history that I think would give people a lot more context to understand that moment. Let me also say that I know there was a difficult moment to watch because of history that Chris and I had in regards to the twenty sixteen Oscar so White. And I'll let people read to get up to speed. On that. But when I first saw Chris's name come on stage, come up as one of the presenters, I said, oh boy. I looked to Will and I was like, he's not gonna be able to help himself. This is going to be something. I was like, I knew, I already knew, and I was like, okay, so Will have been going back and forth backstage all night. So when Chris said what he said, I looked to Will as if to say, see, I knew it, right, And then I was like, oh boy, that's not cool to like talk about a medical condition that people there's nothing you can like, it's not something that can be cured, right, And that how many stories I had heard of people, you know, young people committing suicide and the shame and just how many people suffer and you don't even know. Like once I had the condition and I saw how many people around me had, I was like, all these years I didn't know, and people expressed the shame, the level of shame they had around it. I'm gonna be okay as far as my condition. And as you can see, my hair is growing back. That's what it does. It'll grow, it'll fall out, it'll grow back, again, pieces of my eyebrows will fall out, grow back. You know, I'm having a good moment right now. My alopecia is not as extreme as most people who are dealing with that condition, and I just felt like, that's not okay. So I wasn't upset about me, and I don't remember actually rolling my eyes. I think what people saw was me looking at will going I told you I knew he was going to do that, and oh boy, here we go again. Yeah, you know, oh here we go. But I wasn't upset about me. It really wasn't. It wasn't about me. It was just all the stories I had heard and that I continue to hear about people who have suffered from this condition.
And obviously you didn't want what happened to happen. Like I think that was just clarifying. I know, I'm just clarifying it.
Of course, it wasn't like I looked at Willison, you know.
Yeah, I know. And that's the kind you know, those are the kind of moments of context. Yeah, I lost sometimes.
Listen, there was an aspect of that that I was as shocked as anyone, because will and I hadn't been referring to each other as husband and wife since twenty sixteen. I was like, wife of me, that's right, Yeah, I'm okay, that's right, I am your wife, and that kicked in. I'm like, yep, here we are in that moment that that did happen. I was like, we came together, We're leaving together. You know that part of me that put everything else aside and was like, this is going to be something I need to make sure Will's okay, We're going to get through this. I had no idea that that was none whatsoever, and I came as family. I actually didn't go to the oscars as Will's wife, and I know for people that's weird, But what was going on behind the scenes, Will and I had been said like we weren't living as husband and wife since twenty sixteen. I was happy he asked me to go. I was happy he wanted to share that moment with me still and I was going to be by his side. And I think also people weren't really aware of the journey that had taken place after emancipation. As far as Will's concern, it was a really difficult movie, and afterwards he decided to get into therapeutic settings and he asked me to join him because a lot of stuff was coming up, a lot of stuff from his past, childhood stuff. I think people didn't understand that there was a history there between he and Chris as well, So there was a lot of contexts that people just didn't have. You know, I'm going to tell you something else. I understand why people thought it was me. I understand why people blame me. I don't think it's right, but I understand, you know, considering the narratives that were out there that I was part of. I have to take responsibility for that. And I talk about that in the book. You know, me being the adulterous wife that had, you know, push Will to his limit. I get it. So I couldn't even take any of it personally. And I had to put myself in the shoes of the audience and go, if I was looking at this, what would I say? I probably would have said the same thing. And then that made me really look at like, oh man, Like, culturally we're always blaming women, Like I had to really go deep into that, why do we do that? You know that none of power that have so much of their ownness in their life, but when something bad happens. It's a woman's fault, you know what I mean. It's so interesting, you know, and I had I really started to examine that, but more so just looking at that narrative and taking responsibility.
And at the same time there was love and compassion for Chris. There was that.
Oh yeah, you know. I talk about that in the book. I've worked with Chris. I know Chris am I always a fan of Chris's stage work, No, but Chris as a person, he's a sweet guy. There was a moment when Chris came down to the end of the stage and you have to understand, I'm in deep confusion. I don't know what's going on because of me understanding the context of Will and I behind the scenes, what just happened on the stage. I'm worried about Will. I've never seen that from him. I don't know what's going on. But Chris comes to the end of the stage and he looks at me deeply sincerely, and he says, Jada, I meant no harm, and it was so sincere in his eyes. I'm like, that's the Chris I know. That's the Chris I've experienced. That's the Chris that a lot of people don't get to see because people just see Chris on stage doing what Chris does. But I'm glad I had that moment because with everything else that transpired afterwards, you know, his Netflix, certain comments and all of that, I could hold on to that sincere moment. So when we talk about looking past personality, when somebody has had that opportunity to show you their heart, to show you their spirit, that's the truth, not all the other stuff that hurt, misunderstanding, confusion might bring up. So where my feelings hurt when I heard what was happening as far as the Netflix, of course my feelings were hurt, but I didn't take it personally because I remember I can see his eyes right now as I'm talking to you, and that's the truth of Chris's spirit, Jada, I meant no harm. I talk about it in the book. It's like, you gotta have grace when we're hurt. I'm not saying that I agree with how it was handled. I don't agree with it, but I understand. And so my hope is that there will be there's such a beautiful opportunity for healing, and my hope is that that will occur. It's time. Everything needs time. You have two beautiful men who have hurts and who have hurt one another, but they're both beautiful men. And as I said before, my hope is that these two very capable, beautiful men at some time figure out how to resolve this whole thing of the present and of the past, you know, because life is about healing.
Man.
It's like life's too short. And you know, sometimes conflicts can really amplify love. They really can. I know it has for me. And that's why I called that chapter the Holy Slap, the Holy Joke, the Holy Slap, and the Holy Lessons because through all of this conflict that I've been in the midst of all this misunderstanding that I've been in the midst of, it's helped amplify love within my heart. It's made my heart more elastic hate, and I really have been able to understand how hate has a ceiling. You know, hate aggression, well, you know it has a ceiling, whereas love is oh wow, but it takes so much courage, and it's so easy to go into aggression. It's so easy to go into you know, hateful feelings. It's easy. And I can't blame anybody for doing it, and I have no judgment because guess what been there done that?
You know, Joda, when you started today, you said that you know, this is your journey from being unlovable to trying to find love again. And it's really it's really the true story of all of our lives, of just we're all on that journey of being unlovable, thinking that if someone loves us, we'll be fine. Then thinking that if we get or achieve this will be fine. Then they if I love this person perfectly, then I'll be fine. And it's that we keep filling in that the sentence between unlovable with too lovable, with so many versions. And I think what this book, this memoir does so beautifully, honestly, is you show us every version that you tried to fit in.
That gap, right, every version.
Every version that you to fit in that gap. You're just showing us the reality of what that comes with, like the pain that comes with trying to fit everything into that gap. And I appreciate you for doing that because it's it's hard to not turn every story into a fairy tale ending, yeah, perfect ending, and there isn't that here, And I think that that's what truly makes it relatable. It's what truly makes it applicable wherever we are on our journeys on that spectrum and anyone else's. And it's why I said that I really hope that anyone is on that journey themselves, we'll pick this book up and be able to notice which gap they're trying to fill it with, Yeah, and come back in if that sounds if that feels right.
That's really right. It's like because you're right, it's like all these it's like, Okay, that didn't work, let me go over here, let me try this, and then it just nope. You got to you got to heal you, and you got to really get with a power higher than yourself. And I want to thank you for really being so helpful in so many ways, Jay, in regards to you talk about I mean, we've been on such a beautiful journey together in that way of just learning and deepening our relationship with God individually together. I so appreciate you for that. I mean, you have been so interestrument that way.
I genuinely can't take any credit, like I'm not even, I'm not even and that's not even me, that's not me being umble and modest. It's it's me just saying that in the same way as you feel people came into your life to you know, accelerate their journey and reconnect you like you did the same for me and Radhi like a in a physical way. You all of you have given us so much family, We've celebrated so many thanksgivings. Yeah, we've had you over for sunga every you know, for days and days and weeks and months and years, and you know you've given us so much. And I don't I think that's what I think this book does. I think that's what we'll do for our friendships, is that I got the opportunity to build a friendship with you that was based on nothing else but healing, growth and the divine and that kind of relationship just has a different energy. It's really special when there's nothing else, there's nothing else that would have made our paths cross. We don't work together, we don't have we don't do business together, we don't have the same friends like you know.
But but but this right.
I'm so grateful to watch someone do the hardest work and I'm going, yeah, I need to do it too, Like and I admire it because I see it from that perspective with you, and I always have that You're not trying to take the easy way out. You're not You're not just looking to fix it with a band aid. You're not just hoping it will go away. You're like, no, I'm gonna sit there with it. That is just I just that is such an uncomfortable place naturally for ninety nine percent of people. Yeah, I'm in all of you because of it, and I always will be. And I'm just I'm I'm so happy that you decided to put it into writing because this isn't about clarifying. It isn't about people getting a sense of what really happened. That's not what it's about. It's about how can we sit through that discomfort that we're going through in our life and choose healing and growth even when it's the hardest thing and the farthest thing away from us.
Listen, if things get cleared up from reading this book, great, but that's not the purpose, because I actually don't think you can.
You can't.
Yeah, you can't. It'll just be more stirring up whatever other things right, And it's really which is why it's even more important to really be able to have a strong sense of self right, and not to be looking for external things to be to substitute what you have to have inside in order to know your place in this world. This place is crazy. And to try to make the material space, the material world a line in a way for your comfort. That's it can't start there. It has to start within yourself. That how you see and what you attract you is in alignment with what is happening here, right, But looking for the world to buoy you up or accept you in a certain manner. Nah, Like I said before this, can you just give some little bread crumbs to help people get to a sense of self worth that gives them that comfort no matter what is happening. You know, if you've brought freaking chocolate chip cookies with peanuts in them to the school fair even though kids might have allergies in the school that wrote you a letter and said don't bring products with peanuts, and yeah, right, you made them with love. And now the mom group is on your neck. You can be okay. You can be okay with your victories, and you can be okay with the inevitable challenges that life is going to deliver. It's okay either way. You're okay, You're worthy, you're lovable, peanuts and all.
So, Jada, one of the things that you mentioned was that you went to the Oscars as family, but not as a wife. Yeah, and I wanted to ask you, how do you define the status of your relationship now and.
What is it like, you know right now? Of course, we've had it's been an intense two years and we've really been doing some deep healing together. And that's why I was saying before, the idea of how just really disruptive situations can amplify love in a certain manner because it kind of forces you to have to dive a little deeper. That's what we've been doing. We've just been growing together and see what happens, then see what grows from there.
You know.
But like I said in the book, it's like we have this beautiful friendship and we really look at our marriage as being the cornerstone of family. We're both kind of coming up with different definitions of what marriage means for us. We're still figuring all of that out. Yeah, but the beautiful part is that there's been some really deep healing going on. Yeah, I mean you know that. I mean, at the end of the day, that's what it's about. Marriage is so much about growth, like really learn how to grow emotionally, like emotional maturity, spiritual maturity, and there's this spiritual bond there. I mean, we've tried our best to get away from each other. I mean, I mean our best, and we just don't want to. So we are defining it the way that works for us, and I think getting comfortable with not being concerned about what anybody else thinks about it. We have this life partnership and every day we're trying to figure out what that means.
You've both talked about how you feel like you're a mirror for each other. Yeah, and when I've spoken to Will as well, it's like he feels like you're the person who knows him to his call.
Absolutely, he know you to your care.
Like you know everything. Yeah, that potentially there is to know about each other, and you're obviously still learning.
Yeah.
What's really interesting about that is some people would say, well, why not just get divorced.
Yeah, everybody's always like, why don't you just get divorced? And it's like, hmm, that's like quitting I don't think there's any person that could embrace the best and the worst of me and be able be willing to hold space in the way that will hold space for me and the way that I hold space for him. And I know that most people probably go into their relationship as like you were here to please me, and yeah, our relationship isn't quite.
That, you know.
It's like it's more about there's no greater mirror I could have than will he doesn't. I can't get around myself just like he can't get around himself with me. And I think that that's just been what this has been all about, Like it's been a deep clearing, like really having to look at yourself in ways in that mirror that Sure, we talk about this all the time. Would it be easier to go and find somebody else and have a more pleasing, more comfortable relationship, maybe, But would that get me to the person that I really want to be? I don't think so. And I'm not saying that everybody's relationship is supposed to be that. I'm not here to say that. I'm just saying that that's what my relationship is, that's something I desire to get.
To a.
Deeper part a more spiritually sound, emotionally sound and really understand love unconditionally. And the thing that I've learned about uncondition love, you can't really understand what unconditional love and ideal circumstances to really get to what it is to love yourself and someone else completely with all that's divine, all that's human, all that's perfect, and all that is deeply flawed, and have full acceptance for it. All I tell you this is you know, marriage is not for the faint at heart. It's just not. And it is definitely I believe, I believe. You know, different people get married for different reasons, so I'm not trying to say why anybody else should be married. But for me, the holy path of getting to a divine aspect of myself in partnership with Will, and it seems like Will wants the same for himself, and it's taken us, you know, I mean, we got together it what. I was twenty three, okay, twenty three when I first decided to commit myself to Willard Carrol Smith, Lord Jesus, so young, so young. We were babies, babies trying to figure this out. And you know what's interesting about young relationships you create these young patterns that get so like these really young, immature patterns in yourself and how you relate to your partner, and then you create these dynamics between one another that it takes a while to like really be willing to look at that stuff and dissolve it and let it go immature and grow. It takes some real like self inventory, patience, courage, right, because you're breaking down everything, all your romantic ideas, everything you thought you know, relationship or marriage, all your romantic fantasies you know, just you know, blow up in flames. But it's really been freeing. It's really been freeing to see what's more true.
Right.
I'm not saying that I know the truth yet. I just feel like I'm seeing more of what's true, you know, as regards to what love and partnership is about. Because I was definitely one of those people that's like, you're here to make me happy, and when you don't do it, that's a problem.
And that's a normal setup. That's how we believe relationships are. And you know, I've talked about it before and I put it forward in my book, this idea that we think pleasure is the ultimate gift of a relationship. But really purification is and that's a really tough idea for anyone, including me. I haven't perfected that idea for me to wrap my head around. And I can honestly say that I love Radi and you know you've seen us both together and everything. But the greatest gift Radi gives me is a mirror and a purification of Rady can call out my ego better than anyone or anything, and I know it's coming from a good place. Radi can show me my flaws in the nicest, most supportive way possible and can receive it back from me. And then I feel like because of her, I'm trying to be better, getting better, not.
For her, for myself.
It's almost like the person that you live with knows you so deeply, or the person that you've seen has seen you in all circumstances, in all situations, knows you the deepest. I always say, Roddy knows whether I woke up in meditated in the morning. Yeah, Like Radley knows whether I got angry or frustrated at night after a phone call. Like Radley knows that. And if I use that to my advantage of am I becoming? Am I growing? But it's such a hard concept for people to understand because it's so counterintuitive to the pleasure seeking mind that we've been conditioned to chase. And again, I'm not saying we shouldn't have a pleasure in relationship. That's not the point I'm making. I'm just saying that there's more to it, There's another level.
There's definitely more to it. And I think we've talked about this before, you and I as far as people believing that romantic love is the highest form. Now, I believe that romantic love is an aspect right of a higher form, But I don't believe that romantic self romantic love itself is the highest form right. I believe within the highest form you can have romantic love, but that romantic love is not of the highest right. And that's all I've been examining and exploring with Will and really trying to understand the power of unconditional love, friendship, Like there's something about friendship, familial love that is beautiful. But when two people can have an agreement around divine love, like love of a source greater than yourself that you want to be connected to, and then you decide that your relationship is going to be connected to that same source. Oh boy, now we're on to something. Now we're onto something. But to think that romantic love can hold all of the difficulties and challenges alone, And I think that's why so many of us get into these power struggles. And while there's so many divorces and why they're you know, just all of this strife and relationships, you brought up something that was really important and it's the idea of Roddy when she can kind of pull your coattails with love. And I think that's it takes a lot of work to figure that out, like to not be offended when someone shows up imperfectly, and that those are those kind of pieces within relationship, Like we feel like people are supposed to come ready made. You walk down the aisland, it's like he knows how to love me, you know, I know how to love him, you know, and not making room for that space of growth that is inevitable. People are going to mess up, People are going to do stupid stuff, People are gonna say stupid stuff. Now, when it comes to abuse and all of that, that's a different story, right, But people who are willing to learn how to love each other, because I really do think that's what committed relationships, about marriage or not. I'm committed to learning how to love myself, learning how to love you right, and then learning how to cultivate this relationship that we have with that essence, with those components. Then that's a beautiful thing. That's what I believe the holy path of relating is all about. And not everybody wants that totally. You know, some people really just want the romantic version of it, and.
That's okay too, Absolutely, that's.
Okay too, you know. But for me definitely on that path of looking for something deeper within myself mostly, Yeah.
How did you let go of that desire for romantic love but then hold onto the friendship? Because I feel like that's a journey that is so hard, whether someone stays married or gets divorced or like you both are you described yourself as best friends. How did you hold onto friendship being able to let go of the mirage that you had earlier, or even not even the mirage the reality of what you had earlier, as you talk about in the book, you know, the chemistry, the spark. I think, yeah, so many of us are trying to hold onto that, but you've let go of that, And then you're saying, but we've held on to the friendship, the mirror, the work, the growth. That sounds like the hard way through it.
I think it's how people show up, and people don't always show up perfect clearly. But one thing about Will and I, we're just not willing to give up. It's like, I'm lucky that we just want to have each other in one another's life. Right, you have moments of disharmony, but if you know that you're not willing to not have that person in your life, you know you got to put forth the effort and you got to put forth the work to transform whatever's not working. So we always make the decision to take that one step closer to diving more deeply to learning how to love. And most of the time it has more to do with self inventory, having to go on the corner and look at oneself and then come back and go, I was tripping, whether it's I'm sorry or I had a misunderstanding. Can we look at this now together, Because now I've looked at it in my corner alone, and I've seen my part, and I want to talk to you first about my part ABC and D right, and then inevitably usually your partner go, well, you know, I could have done such and such a such, and so when you have an agreement that's really unspoken of, like I want you in my life and I want to have good times with you and I love you, then that's the energy that nurtures and keeps one willing to just keep working at it. So there's that deep love. And the great thing is that Will's got a great sense of humor, you know what I mean. He's got a really good sense of humor. So he has a way of being able to help me get out of my funk. But I'm kind of like you talk about this a lot with Roddy, where I kind of have to take my time, Like I'm not always ready to talk right away. I need to like sit, I need to be with myself, I need to kind of like work through my thoughts and all of that. Where Will is always ready to talk. I like to go deep. He likes to get funny. The great thing about him, he can go deep. And there are times that I really like to play and have fun. So we're like these energetic fields, you know, I'm Earth and he's Sky. You know, we are your typical Yin and yang. You know that. You know, there's this great chemistry there between us that just works. And but when it doesn't work, oh man, oh man, oh man. You know what I mean those moments, but it's just like, ah, but I think that's just inevitable in every relationship.
You know, But it just doesn't look traditional. I think that's the point. That's that's the part where it's like, it just doesn't look traditional. It well, yes, there's the trust, there's commitments. Yeah, there's understanding, and at the same time, it doesn't look.
It doesn't look traditional. I don't know, I'm being honest with you. There are aspects of traditional relating that absolutely work. But I think in this day and age, I don't know too many marriages that are traditional. I really don't. Everybody is trying to figure it out, right, and I think everybody's so scared to talk about all of the different ways that they're trying to figure it out. I know so many people who are like married but not living together, married but have decided to have other partners. I know so many people and have for a long time that are trying marriage in so many different forms, and my whole thing is figure it out for you. Marriage is not a cookie cut out like formula. Besides, I do think that there's some staples you know, love, but he did not let me take that out for a second. There's some people who are married strictly for business purposes. I've seen that too. As long as there's agreement between two people and how they decide they want to be together, stay out of it. It has nothing to do. I tell people all the time, don't look at my marriage as being contagious. Whatever I'm doing doesn't mean you got to be doing that. You got to be doing the thing that works for you. And I feel like every partnership two people have the right to figure that out for them.
And it's so different in norms, in different cultures and different backgrounds. I mean, like for me and Radi, we spend a lot of time apart because she likes to be back with her family in London and I travel for work, and so we discovered and agreed very early on in our relationship that when I work, she would often visit her family back in London and she loves it and she wants to be with her mom and dad and her niece and nephew and her sister and brother in law and everyone. And I love my purpose and I want to be traveling. I want to be working, I want to be moving. And I remember so many times in our relationship people be like, is everything okay? Yeah, And then we go back to London, people be like, why's your wife not with you? Or people like why jin not with you? And everyone starts thinking that there may be something going on, and it's actually, well, no, this was our agreement. This is something we've sat and talked about and figured things out, and actually we love distance because we get excited to see each other again. It's refreshing. It works for us, and again it may not work for anyone else. Someone may say I need my partner by my set every day fair enough, and someone may say I want to travel more than you do or less. But we just found that having honest conversations between us and knowing why we were making certain decisions even though they were abnormal to our community, the community that we grew up in, where the way we live is very abnormal, even though it's just about time apart. The point was we had an agreement that worked for us, and I think getting to know you both, I can honestly say that I feel like you guys are both always honest and communicative with each other on what your agreements are.
Absolutely, and that's what we.
Have been discussing today as well, that there's always been that that openness to do that.
Oh yeah, well, I talk about it a lot in the book, and I think that a lot of people had a lot of misunderstanding as we talked about earlier. I believe in regards to open relationship and being able to be with whoever you want. Now, that's not what was happening. And I think a lot of times that people just didn't know that we had agreed to not be together. As we were trying to figure out are we going to be separated? Are we going to be divorced? Then we would reconcile, and then we would break up again, and there's all this back and forth between us that we didn't share with the world a lot, you know. And I think now people are just going to have to be okay with our marriage is not traditional in the sense of here we are married, but not you know what I mean, And you know, as I'm on my path and Will's figuring his thing out. We've decided to hold space for each other and as we're trying to figure out who we are. Will's lived a lot of his life for other people. I've definitely lived my life a lot for other people. And really having this time for me, I need this what I've been able to discover about myself in the last five years, six years, I think now I've needed this time to really concentrate on me and really developing like a relationship with myself. And I feel like the better relationship I have with myself, the better relationship I have with everyone else in my life, including Will, and so I talk about that a lot in the book. You know, just a lot of the misunderstandings that have occurred, rightfully so, because it's been a lot of mixed messaging, and then people are like, well, you know, you guys have been on the real card, you know, and all of that, We see you. We never knew there was a breakup you weren't supposed to that was between us, and at the end of the day, we're always family no matter what. So I think that the way we are deciding to be in a union people are just gonna have to get with that. It's probably not gonna look like what someone else is doing, and that's just the truth of the matter, you know, and we're.
Good with that. I can definitely say that whatever relationship anyone is in that we all get to a point in our relationships, from mantic or otherwise where growing together becomes the greatest priority. It doesn't matter how.
We are, how we got there, or what's happening.
That. I think that is the key I was saying to that when I was writing my book A Rules of Love, it was like the journey I went on through writing it got me to that point of recognizing that, yes, the goal of every relationship in my life is simply to teach me something I have been unwilling to learn. And the people that I'm closest.
To, come on, Jay, Yeah, the people.
That I'm closest to are the only ones that can push me or pull me to seeing that whether it's your mom, whether it's your dad, or your sister, brother, partner, whatever it may be. And for me, I also discovered through the writing of the book that the greatest love story and I really really believe this. When I was writing it. I was like, the greatest love stories in the world are actually not romantic. The greatest love stories in the world are generally human sacrificing themselves in the service of others. Like you see people take on great sacrifice to help people that they may not even meet, or you see people like taking on a mission or a movement that hmm, positively affects so many people that they were never even connected to, Like those are the greatest acts of love, or the act of love that a parent has for their child that they extend themselves in express and that unconditionality. You don't really see romantic love being unconditional gender. It's interesting that trying to practice and understand what unconditional love is and figuring it out, which we all are, including me, But that journey was really powerful for me to recognize that the more unwilling I become and the more I hide from the lessons that I'm meant to learn, the harder it gets, and the harder the lesson gets and the test gets and it just gets bigger and worse.
It gets bigger, and you know the truth of the matter is it's like I'm always going to be by will side you know when I think about, like if something ever happened to him, it's like, I'm gonna be right there if he needs me, I'm going to be right there always. That's just an unbreakable fact. That's the bond we have. You know, We've tried to break it in every which way you can think of. We don't want to be in this lifetime without one another. It's just not going to happen. So we're trying to figure out what that looks like for us. And there's something really powerful about that. I gotta be honest, as difficult as it's been, as there's been times that I've hated that fact having somebody that forces me to have to raise my consciousness, evolve my understanding of love, to deal with the fact of that bond that's a God given gift because me and God got to get with that. God has to be my mentor on how to love Will and myself and care for the relationship that we have through the eyes of the Great Supreme, not the way Jada wants it. And so that has been a beautiful surrender that I've really had to surrender because I really feel like it's about the decree God was like, oh no, in this lifetime, that's your person like it or not, I don't care. So it set me up to have to break certain ideas of my own personality and my own ego and really surrender to what the Great Supreme wants to teach me about love and about patience, and about care, kindness, considerationness of myself, forgiveness of others. It's deep, and I'm so grateful. It's been a painful journey, no doubt, but the gifts that I get on the other side of that discomfort, and when I get on the other side of the discomfort, I go, I get it. I could not have gotten that gift or that understanding without that trial you gave me. I just ask God these days, because you're making it a little easier, I think I'm getting the groove, you know what I mean, just like, come on, you know. But I've also realized too that I'm getting to the point that when things tumultuous things come about, I smile and I go, Okay, you got a great one for me on the other side of this bad boy, you know what I mean. You just start to realize it's never failed in that way. I remember asking Swammy. I said, do you think I should get divorced?
Wow, I didn't know you asked him?
Now, I sure did, I asked Swammy, and he said, you know, Jada, people take their vows very lightly these days. And he said something to the fact that, you know, when we stay committed to the vowels that we make, we find what we need. And I was like, okay, and I just stayed on track. I was just like, all right, let me, let me just keep digging, let me keep going. And he you know, he's right for my journey. I can't say for anybody else for my journey because he said, oh, this is what he said. He said, people end up as friends in the long run, and they're holding hands walking each other. And that's how I feel. I feel like Will and I are walking each other home as life partners.
Well, Jada, I want to share one last thing with you, if I can so. Earlier, I had a letter for you from Willow Okay, and I also have a letter from Will. I may need your help with you. May have to reenact some words because I feel like you'll be able to channel Okay, Will better than me. I will not try and impersonate him. Because it won't go well. But this was for you, Jada. I think it was when we'll found out that you're coming on the show. And all right, I was happy that he was able to send this to me and so I could share it with you, and I'll just read it and let's let's do it in his words. Okay, so you'll have to explain this one for us, I know, but I want the audience ton So he said, congrats Dink.
Okay, so let me just tell you what yeah, let me let me tell you what Dink means. He's so crazy. So when we play golf, he's my favorite person to play golf with. So when we play golf, when I hit my driver, it goes Dink. And so that's why he calls me Dick.
Who's better at golf?
He's definitely better. But I'm getting to a point where I can, you know, I can challenge him in a good way on a couple of holes, for sure.
All Right, Okay, congrats Dink. I just turned the final page of Worthy, and damn, I'm going to get you to do the damn How would he say?
Damn?
I just turned the final page of Worthy and damn it is amazing to realize that, despite having lived most of my life by your side, I still found myself shocked and stunned and cought of God, laughing, then inspired, then heartbroken. I was all over the place. It's one thing to hear anecdotes at a family barbecue, but it was truly overwhelming to take in your story potently condensed in this way. You are one of one, a rare blend of power and delicate sensitivity. I know it wasn't easy to excavate the depths in that way. I applaud and honor you. If I had read this book thirty years ago, I definitely would have hugged you more. I'll start now. Welcome to the author's club. I love you endlessly. Now go get some merlo and take a rest.
Hey, no, I can't. I have no more love. That's beautiful, and that's why I can't divorce that joker.
Yeah, there's one line that really hit me, and I want to hear obviously, how you felt that he said, If I had read this book thirty years ago, I definitely would have hugged you more. I'll start now, how did it feel listening to parts of that?
You know, one of the things I talk about in the book A lot is perspective. When we got married, Will had to be twenty twenty nine. We had such different needs, no right or wrong. You know, Will was very driven. But I got married because I was pregnant and I wanted a fam And now I must say that was the one thing we both wanted to create a family. We never had, but what we thought took having a healthy family. Will believed, man, as long as I get out here, make money, get the biggest house, make sure you guys don't need anything. That's how you have a great family. And my thing was like, no but love and you know, me and you we got a da da da da. You know, everything was centered around feelings, love da da. We just couldn't find agreement because we thought we had two different goals around what it took. And so to hear him say that he would have hugged me more is me hearing him say he would have taken a bit more time to listen and understand. And that doesn't mean that he would have to be off his path, but just to take a little bit more time to listen and understand. And I think when we're young, because that was the same way. I mean, when we were young, you just think your way is the only way. And I think that where Will and I are getting to now is understanding that our ways. My way is just one way, his way is just one way. And then how do we listen to each other more to blend those ways. I was very careful.
And not.
Going into romanticized regret after hearing that line. I wish I could have hugged you more, but I will do so now right. I was like, no, no, no, you're not going to go into romanticized regret wo, because what I know as a fact is that every step, everything that is transpired between us has been absolutely perfect, all the beauty and all the ugly to get us to a place that we're coming to, you know, And you could you could go, oh, I wish that, you know, I had known this when I was younger. That's the whole point of youth, you don't know, you know what I mean. And then to really just to be able to embrace like this time in my life and in his life and coming into newfound wisdom and enjoy that. But I'm so glad that getting closer to that blend between us and That's what I'm saying. It's like, who else am I going to grow with like that and be able to have those that deep cherished moment of like when you can look back at where you were thirty years ago and where we've traveled to get to this moment right here, right now, at this beautiful family. Without him, I went, I've had Jaden, Willow Trey, Oh my gosh, there are no greater treasures than those three. And then all of the magnificent experiences he and I've had together, the great ones and the not so great ones, you know, but they're ours, part of our tapestry. One thing I talk about in the book going to see Ruby d when I needed some marital advice and she told me laugh now, because you're gonna laugh later, And it's so true. I didn't know what she was talking about then, but she'd been married at that time or fifty some years as Sie was gone, Ozzie Davis had passed on, you know, And one of the things she said to me, I said, what's one of your biggest regrets? And she said, I wish I had laughed with him more. And that never leaves my mind to just find ways to get through the bumpies, to get through the bumpy stuff, and let's get back to some laughter and some joy.
This to you in any case you want to read it again, Yeah, And I want to thank you for you know, your vulnerability, your openness today and the vulnerability in the book that you shed so profoundly today. But the book you get to weave the tapestry together and the lessons and where they come in your life. And I really, I really believe that anyone who will read this book will gain access to a much deeper understanding of themselves as a mirror and also get an opportunity to reframe, rethin, renew ideas perspective thoughts about their own journey.
That is all that I want. Like, we have so much fear around allowing people their journeys because we can tend to get hurt within them along the way, but it's inevitable. And the more that we can have acceptance for the reality that life is a journey, nobody is meant to be perfect. It baffles me. Well, actually, let me take that back. It doesn't baffle me because I've been there. It doesn't baffle me. I've been there where Just being afraid to allow what is to be. That is embracing our humanness and learning how to love each other through our humanness. All this cancel culture and all of this that is purely a rejection of aspects of ourselves and a rejection of humanness. And that's where unconditional love has its most power. Right. But if we can learn to do that with us, starting with ourselves, right, learning how to have unconditional love for ourselves and have acceptance for our journey. And that's what I want from this book. I'm just putting it out there like a this is what my journey looks like, and it ain't cute. This is what I've learned along the way, and this is how I learned how to gain self worth and to feel worthy about it. All about it, all about it, all Jay, every piece of it. And that's all I want for every anybody else. It's okay, it's okay. You don't have to come down on yourself. And just because we stumble and we might lose our way doesn't mean we're lost forever. Thank you Charles Xavier from x Men for that statement.
I love that, friend.
I do too. Charles laid it out just like that. I had to put that quone in my book, but it's true, and that's all I want for everybody. We are all worthy, embracing it all, every aspect of our journey. That is the thing that makes us worthy.
We're harder on all this because we're so hard on ourselves. We're hard on ourselves because we're so hard on others, and that cycle keeps repeating itself. Point out someone's floor because we're pointing them out in ourselves, but not looking at the growth we're trying to make and the growth someone else trying to make, the healing journey that they're on, and the healing journey that we're on. And as you were just saying that, what came to my mind is that we all have to take the same steps, but on our own path. And I think what this book does so gracefully is show your steps, which reminds us all that even if we trip and we fall, which we inevitably will, there's still another step after that that we can take. And that ultimate step is what you just so beautifully put the step of recognizing that all of it was worthy, all of it was part of that journey towards self.
Worth, and that you're loved. You're loved, and you're held no matter what through all of the scrutiny and through all of the I don't know stones that were thrown at me as painful as all of that was, what a beautiful gauntlet to get me to the understanding that it's only our self judgment that's the true enemy. And I got to cure so much of my own self judgment through all of that. It's almost like being like wonder woman, you know, per pre Pard, you know what I mean. It's like the Great Supreme makes it so that you're invincible to all the criticism, anything else anybody has to say about you. When you get that true sense of worthiness, doesn't matter what anybody else thinks, doesn't matter what other misunderstandings are happening. And I want that for everybody. It's a superpower, but it's not given without the trial. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. Thank you. I'm so grateful and thank you Jay. Yeah, thank you, thank you.
Jay.
You've been so good to me through it all. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
So grateful to you too as well, for letting me be a small part of the journey, because it's one that you give me the bravery to tread myself. So thank you. If you love this episode, you love my interview with Will Smith on owning your truth and unlocking the power of manifestation. Anybody who hasn't spoken to their parents or their brother, call them right now.
Don't think you're going to have a chance to call them tomorrow or next week.
That opportunity with my father changed every relationship in my life.