Safety is the foundation of everything, and people think that safety is about like swaddling people in cotton and making them feel comfortable, when actually it's all about voice.

Safety is the foundation of everything, and people think that safety is about like swaddling people in cotton and making them feel comfortable, when actually it's all about voice.

Hey everyone, I'm so excited because we're going to be adding a really special offering onto the back of my solo episodes on Fridays. The Daily Jay is a daily series on Calm and it's meant to inspire you while outlining tools and techniques to live a more mindful.

Hey everyone, I'm so excited because we're going to be adding a really special offering onto the back of my solo episodes on Fridays. The Daily Jay is a daily series on Calm and it's meant to inspire you while outlining tools and techniques to live a more mindful.

Stress free life.

Stress free life.

We dive into a range of topics and the best part is each episode is only seven minutes long, so you can incorporate it into your schedule no matter how busy you are. As a dedicated part of the on Purpose community, I wanted to do something special for you this year, so I'll be playing a hand picked Daily Jay during each of my Friday podcasts. This week, we're discussing your relationship with work and how to be more present, productive and purposeful. Of course, if you want to listen to The Daily Jay every day, you can subscribe to Calm, So go to Calm dot com forward slash j for forty percent off your membership today. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast.

We dive into a range of topics and the best part is each episode is only seven minutes long, so you can incorporate it into your schedule no matter how busy you are. As a dedicated part of the on Purpose community, I wanted to do something special for you this year, so I'll be playing a hand picked Daily Jay during each of my Friday podcasts. This week, we're discussing your relationship with work and how to be more present, productive and purposeful. Of course, if you want to listen to The Daily Jay every day, you can subscribe to Calm, So go to Calm dot com forward slash j for forty percent off your membership today. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast.

In the world where we dive.

In the world where we dive.

Into your physical, mental, emotional, financial health, and I know that wellbeing is a big priority for all of you, and the wellbeing of the people you work with, the wellbeing of the people that work for you, if you have a team or a company, or you're an entrepreneur, or even your family that you work together with. Culture is at the heart of that and how we think about the people that we interact with daily, how we understand how to give them feedback, how to connect with them, how to communicate with them more effectively. I mean, if the quality of our life, which we know from Harvard's seventy five year study that the quality of our life is based on the quality of our relationships, then finding great culture in our relations is such a key need. I was exposed to the fascinating cultures of monk's lives when I lived as a monk for three years, and I gained so much from that culture that I adopted and I brought into my work. But recently I came across a book, and I'm always on the lookout for that next book that's going to shift my perspective, change my mind.

Into your physical, mental, emotional, financial health, and I know that wellbeing is a big priority for all of you, and the wellbeing of the people you work with, the wellbeing of the people that work for you, if you have a team or a company, or you're an entrepreneur, or even your family that you work together with. Culture is at the heart of that and how we think about the people that we interact with daily, how we understand how to give them feedback, how to connect with them, how to communicate with them more effectively. I mean, if the quality of our life, which we know from Harvard's seventy five year study that the quality of our life is based on the quality of our relationships, then finding great culture in our relations is such a key need. I was exposed to the fascinating cultures of monk's lives when I lived as a monk for three years, and I gained so much from that culture that I adopted and I brought into my work. But recently I came across a book, and I'm always on the lookout for that next book that's going to shift my perspective, change my mind.

And I'm a voracious reader. I read a ton.

And I'm a voracious reader. I read a ton.

I'm always picking up new books at the airport at bookstores. My friends are like Jay, like when do you get all the time. I'm like, trust me, I just need to dive in and learn what I can and take what I can. And this book, I cannot speak more highly of it because it has been so clarifying, it has been so beautifully simplifying of what it means to build culture, build teams, communicate effectively, give feedback effectively. And so today's guest is the author of my current favorite book, which is called The Culture Code. He's the New York Times best selling author and this book was named best business Book of the Year by Bloomberg, Book Pal and Business Insider. His other books include The Talent Code, which I haven't read yet, which I'm very excited to read, The Little Book of Talent, The Secret Race, Lance Armstrong's War, and Hardball, A Season in the Projects. He has served as an advisor to many high performing organizations, including the Navy Seals, Microsoft, Google, and the Cleveland Guardians. His new book is called The Culture Playbook, sixty highly Effective Actions to help your group succeed. It's the ultimate handbook for fostering and cultivating as streams strong culture and we're going to be using that book. Welcome to the show, Daniel Coyle. Daniel, thank you so much for doing this.

I'm always picking up new books at the airport at bookstores. My friends are like Jay, like when do you get all the time. I'm like, trust me, I just need to dive in and learn what I can and take what I can. And this book, I cannot speak more highly of it because it has been so clarifying, it has been so beautifully simplifying of what it means to build culture, build teams, communicate effectively, give feedback effectively. And so today's guest is the author of my current favorite book, which is called The Culture Code. He's the New York Times best selling author and this book was named best business Book of the Year by Bloomberg, Book Pal and Business Insider. His other books include The Talent Code, which I haven't read yet, which I'm very excited to read, The Little Book of Talent, The Secret Race, Lance Armstrong's War, and Hardball, A Season in the Projects. He has served as an advisor to many high performing organizations, including the Navy Seals, Microsoft, Google, and the Cleveland Guardians. His new book is called The Culture Playbook, sixty highly Effective Actions to help your group succeed. It's the ultimate handbook for fostering and cultivating as streams strong culture and we're going to be using that book. Welcome to the show, Daniel Coyle. Daniel, thank you so much for doing this.

Thanks for having me Jay. It's really fun to be with you.

Thanks for having me Jay. It's really fun to be with you.

Yeah, and I really appreciated it. I know I was talking about you everywhere. Literally, was talking about you on my YouTube channel, I was talking about you on my Instagram. And so when your team reached down they said, Hey, does Jay want to speak to Daniel, I was like, I mean, I don't think there's anyone I want to speak to more right now. So today is basically my opportunity to for free, which you usually get paid a lot for, for free, ask you questions about your expertise that I can apply inside my company and organization with my team members. And if you're in the audience right now and you're like, Jay, I don't have a company, I'm not an entrepreneur. I'm you know, I don't own my own business. Everything that we talk about will be applicable to you, whether it's within your organization, within your company. It even applies, in my opinion, to your family. It genuinely applies to your friends and the people that you connect with. So what I'm learning from Daniel in his book is not just the culture code for businesses, but it's a culture code for life. And I want you to see it that way as well. So would you would you agree with that?

Yeah, and I really appreciated it. I know I was talking about you everywhere. Literally, was talking about you on my YouTube channel, I was talking about you on my Instagram. And so when your team reached down they said, Hey, does Jay want to speak to Daniel, I was like, I mean, I don't think there's anyone I want to speak to more right now. So today is basically my opportunity to for free, which you usually get paid a lot for, for free, ask you questions about your expertise that I can apply inside my company and organization with my team members. And if you're in the audience right now and you're like, Jay, I don't have a company, I'm not an entrepreneur. I'm you know, I don't own my own business. Everything that we talk about will be applicable to you, whether it's within your organization, within your company. It even applies, in my opinion, to your family. It genuinely applies to your friends and the people that you connect with. So what I'm learning from Daniel in his book is not just the culture code for businesses, but it's a culture code for life. And I want you to see it that way as well. So would you would you agree with that?

Daniel?

Daniel?

I wanted to ask you that question off straight off the bat, like I've been using your advice in my personal life as much as my professional life.

I wanted to ask you that question off straight off the bat, like I've been using your advice in my personal life as much as my professional life.

I appreciate that. No, I have too, And actually writing the book was not any different.

I appreciate that. No, I have too, And actually writing the book was not any different.

You know.

You know.

We go into it with these ideas about what culture is and how culture is built. Normally think culture is sort of like the personality of a group, like it's just sort of who they are, Like Disney is Disney, and your culture of your group as you. And when you sort of look beneath that, what you find is that it's much more like a sport, it's much more like a skill. It's much more like these these sort of certain actions. It's not about who you are, it's about what you do. It's about your behaviors. And there's this like language of behaviors that helps people connect, that helps people open up, that helps people figure out where they want to go together. And it does feel kind of like a discovery. I have to say, I still feel like I'm like, I'm discovering new things about this even after having written about it for so long ago.

We go into it with these ideas about what culture is and how culture is built. Normally think culture is sort of like the personality of a group, like it's just sort of who they are, Like Disney is Disney, and your culture of your group as you. And when you sort of look beneath that, what you find is that it's much more like a sport, it's much more like a skill. It's much more like these these sort of certain actions. It's not about who you are, it's about what you do. It's about your behaviors. And there's this like language of behaviors that helps people connect, that helps people open up, that helps people figure out where they want to go together. And it does feel kind of like a discovery. I have to say, I still feel like I'm like, I'm discovering new things about this even after having written about it for so long ago.

I love that.

I love that.

Let's let's define culture for anyone who's listening. And like you said, like today we think of culture like music or fashion, and we think of culturally relevant things, but we also think about culture as you do talk about as within a team, within a company, within a family, within an organization. What are the key ten and that's that define a culture? And please define culture for us as well as that.

Let's let's define culture for anyone who's listening. And like you said, like today we think of culture like music or fashion, and we think of culturally relevant things, but we also think about culture as you do talk about as within a team, within a company, within a family, within an organization. What are the key ten and that's that define a culture? And please define culture for us as well as that.

It's so interesting you feel a culture when you walk into a space with people, right, you walk into a locker room, you walk into a kitchen of a restaurant, you walk into a school, and you can feel it. What are you feeling there? What is that made of? I would define culture as a set of living relationships moving toward a goal together. And the visual I want you to picture is almost like a flock of birds moving through the sky like they're connected. They're connected, they're going around obstacles and they're moving somewhere together. And for that to happen, there have to be these three behaviors happening. There has to be behavior of connection, Like we're in right, We're not spinning off and taking off. We're staying together. We're sharing information so we can be kind of aware of each other, and we're open and transparent about that. And we're also know where we're headed. We like have something in the windshield that says, this is where we're headed, this is where we're not headed. So culture is not like this sort of just this vibe. We always talk about chemistry and magic of groups, right, it feels like magic when we have it. Like if you were to write now, think about the best most cohesive group you've ever been a part of, Like you could close your eyes and you would get a feeling like that what it feels like to be with them and it Those are like the peak experiences in life. But when you x ray those, there are these behaviors underneath them. Right, what we feel is that buzz and that champagne bubble feeling of being with people we like to solve problems with, we like to work with, and that energy and selflessness you have in a group. But those champagne bubbles are caused by a thing. There's a thing underneath there, and that's safety sharing vulnerability and a sense of purpose, and those behaviors that build that thing are what's fun to tap into because then you sort of realize, hey, I don't have to just like wait and hope for chemistry to happen. I don't have to just sort of hope that this new team gets along and we do well on our project. I don't just have to hope that when my kids come home from college for Christmas we have a great time together. There's actually a they're there. There's like moves you can make, things you can say and do, and behaviors you can create, and spaces you can create that help that happen. So it's a feeling that you end up getting a feeling of like a little more control over the most magical, mysterious part of life, which is those relationships. Like that study said, like it's all life is all about relationships. It's all about having those peak moments, and if you can tap in to the levers and tools that are causing those to happen, it's it's a really good feeling.

It's so interesting you feel a culture when you walk into a space with people, right, you walk into a locker room, you walk into a kitchen of a restaurant, you walk into a school, and you can feel it. What are you feeling there? What is that made of? I would define culture as a set of living relationships moving toward a goal together. And the visual I want you to picture is almost like a flock of birds moving through the sky like they're connected. They're connected, they're going around obstacles and they're moving somewhere together. And for that to happen, there have to be these three behaviors happening. There has to be behavior of connection, Like we're in right, We're not spinning off and taking off. We're staying together. We're sharing information so we can be kind of aware of each other, and we're open and transparent about that. And we're also know where we're headed. We like have something in the windshield that says, this is where we're headed, this is where we're not headed. So culture is not like this sort of just this vibe. We always talk about chemistry and magic of groups, right, it feels like magic when we have it. Like if you were to write now, think about the best most cohesive group you've ever been a part of, Like you could close your eyes and you would get a feeling like that what it feels like to be with them and it Those are like the peak experiences in life. But when you x ray those, there are these behaviors underneath them. Right, what we feel is that buzz and that champagne bubble feeling of being with people we like to solve problems with, we like to work with, and that energy and selflessness you have in a group. But those champagne bubbles are caused by a thing. There's a thing underneath there, and that's safety sharing vulnerability and a sense of purpose, and those behaviors that build that thing are what's fun to tap into because then you sort of realize, hey, I don't have to just like wait and hope for chemistry to happen. I don't have to just sort of hope that this new team gets along and we do well on our project. I don't just have to hope that when my kids come home from college for Christmas we have a great time together. There's actually a they're there. There's like moves you can make, things you can say and do, and behaviors you can create, and spaces you can create that help that happen. So it's a feeling that you end up getting a feeling of like a little more control over the most magical, mysterious part of life, which is those relationships. Like that study said, like it's all life is all about relationships. It's all about having those peak moments, and if you can tap in to the levers and tools that are causing those to happen, it's it's a really good feeling.

Yeah, let's talk about that a bit.

Yeah, let's talk about that a bit.

I think one of the biggest challenges inside a company, a family, a group, a team, especially in the beginning is that everyone comes with their own intentions and their own goals.

I think one of the biggest challenges inside a company, a family, a group, a team, especially in the beginning is that everyone comes with their own intentions and their own goals.

Right.

Right.

So someone may be turning up to this job just to pay their bills. That's all they want. They want nothing else to do with anyone or anything else. Another person's coming in because they're saying, well, this is a long term career for me. I want to make a name for myself. I want to grow, I want to advance, and I want to get some goals at this company.

So someone may be turning up to this job just to pay their bills. That's all they want. They want nothing else to do with anyone or anything else. Another person's coming in because they're saying, well, this is a long term career for me. I want to make a name for myself. I want to grow, I want to advance, and I want to get some goals at this company.

Another person comes in and they go, well, you know what, I'm.

Another person comes in and they go, well, you know what, I'm.

Here because I actually want to learn so that I can extract what I know and then go do my own thing.

Here because I actually want to learn so that I can extract what I know and then go do my own thing.

Right.

Right.

So you have all of these different emotions, different intentions, different psychologies in a group. I guess my question is how do you then start forming culture when everyone's coming for something completely different.

So you have all of these different emotions, different intentions, different psychologies in a group. I guess my question is how do you then start forming culture when everyone's coming for something completely different.

Safety is the foundation of everything, and people think that safety is about like swaddling people in cotton and making them feel comfortable, when actually it's all about voice. So if your group were to walk in, this group of diverse people that you're talking about, who have diverse purposes in their mind, diverse goals, the first thing you would get them to do is to say tell me about that, like, what do you want to do about this? A beautiful design company and ideo that you've probably heard of that has this series of meetings before every team project. They're called flight meeting, and they say, hey, this is like taking a trip. We're gonna have a pre flight meeting, we're gonna have a mid flight meeting, we're gonna have a post flight meeting. And it's a little calisthenic they do. The meetings don't take long, but that's what they do with that first meeting, like what are you in for? What's gonna give you joy out of this? What do you want to learn the most? And you create awareness to go back to that flock of birds, like you'll bump into each other if you don't know where you're at and if you don't know where you're headed. And the other big thing that happens in those first meetings is defining that north star, like what are we really all about? Let's come to some consensus. You might be into the learning, you might be into the status, you might be into sort of the exploration and the joy. Let's find some language around and let's find some way to define what that is. And let's keep defining that a lot of groups come together and they just sort of automatically say, well, our job together is to do a good job, right, Our job together is to succeed, whatever that means. But actually pausing, and this is where I think our work kind of or overlaps in an interesting way. I think a lot of you always talk about is awareness creating awareness and these moments, and it doesn't happen by accident. It happens when you take an intentional pause. I think what this culture playbook and this cultural skill set in general is really about getting great at pausing as a group. Like, there's all this skill set to pauses an individual. We talk about mindfulness, we talk about all of these habits and rituals and mental calisthenics that give us clarity. Groups are no different. They're also an entity that needs to navigate and connect and figure out what's important and what's not important. And so that pause where you say, Okay, what are you most into, what are you least into? Why are you here? Where are we headed? If we can just get some really simple language around that, that is the first step toward making us cohere and start to move together.

Safety is the foundation of everything, and people think that safety is about like swaddling people in cotton and making them feel comfortable, when actually it's all about voice. So if your group were to walk in, this group of diverse people that you're talking about, who have diverse purposes in their mind, diverse goals, the first thing you would get them to do is to say tell me about that, like, what do you want to do about this? A beautiful design company and ideo that you've probably heard of that has this series of meetings before every team project. They're called flight meeting, and they say, hey, this is like taking a trip. We're gonna have a pre flight meeting, we're gonna have a mid flight meeting, we're gonna have a post flight meeting. And it's a little calisthenic they do. The meetings don't take long, but that's what they do with that first meeting, like what are you in for? What's gonna give you joy out of this? What do you want to learn the most? And you create awareness to go back to that flock of birds, like you'll bump into each other if you don't know where you're at and if you don't know where you're headed. And the other big thing that happens in those first meetings is defining that north star, like what are we really all about? Let's come to some consensus. You might be into the learning, you might be into the status, you might be into sort of the exploration and the joy. Let's find some language around and let's find some way to define what that is. And let's keep defining that a lot of groups come together and they just sort of automatically say, well, our job together is to do a good job, right, Our job together is to succeed, whatever that means. But actually pausing, and this is where I think our work kind of or overlaps in an interesting way. I think a lot of you always talk about is awareness creating awareness and these moments, and it doesn't happen by accident. It happens when you take an intentional pause. I think what this culture playbook and this cultural skill set in general is really about getting great at pausing as a group. Like, there's all this skill set to pauses an individual. We talk about mindfulness, we talk about all of these habits and rituals and mental calisthenics that give us clarity. Groups are no different. They're also an entity that needs to navigate and connect and figure out what's important and what's not important. And so that pause where you say, Okay, what are you most into, what are you least into? Why are you here? Where are we headed? If we can just get some really simple language around that, that is the first step toward making us cohere and start to move together.

What are people's biggest fears when they're starting a new job, and then as they progress in the workplace, what are their greatest fears? Have you seen patent reset studies that show that this is what people struggle with inside organizations the most.

What are people's biggest fears when they're starting a new job, and then as they progress in the workplace, what are their greatest fears? Have you seen patent reset studies that show that this is what people struggle with inside organizations the most.

It's pretty contextual. It would depend on the specific one, but I think one very common one is reputational risk status. You know, I can't afford to look dumb. I can't afford to display weakness, which is why in all good cultures. It's funny. I really found this out when I went and visited a Navy seal. His name is Dave Cooper, and Dave, he's a pretty normal looking guy. He's not the best shot, he's not the best swimmer, he can't bench press the most. He's the great at creating high trust teams. That's what he's really great at. And he actually trained the seal Team six that got bin laden. And while we're at breakfast, he says these words. He says, you know, the foremost important words a leader can say, I screwed that up. Just really intriguing. Right, like Navy seals, you should be pretty confident. You should be pretty bulletproof metaphorically and literally, and yet here he is talking about this profound fallibility, and I think what that sheds a light on is how important sharing vulnerability is, especially if you're in a position of power, because that gives everyone, especially people new to the organization, a clear sense that, hey, this is good to talk about this. We're here to get better together. We're here to give each other, make each other better and share that feedback and be fallible and be weak. So it's really important to make that to make that have that moment happen early on. You know, in groups forms, there's like three critical moments when every group forms. Moment one like the first five minutes you're together, it's a big deal, like how are you going to get along? Is it safe? Do people care? Does everyone have a voice? Second one is the first disagreement. We're going to disagree at some point, right, We're going to disagree, and the norms we form around that disagreement are we disagreeing along task conflict, which is we're going to have our ideas, are going to fight and that's a good sort of fight? Or is this personal right? And the third one is the first moment of learning what's going to happen? Are we going to really stop and point out the fact we just got a little better. This is really cool. I'm really glad you gave me that feedback to make me better. So those critical moments, and I think in successful groups they're really good at managing those critical moments, spotlighting them and normalizing them. So it's normal to be safe, it's normal to disagree. Thank you for disagreeing with me. Let's have our ideas fight it out, and it's great to learn you just made me better. Thank you. And if you get those moments right, you're investing in in the future success of the group in a huge way. And yet our temptation is often to like walk past those moments. Right, We're terrible at pausing. Most teams are really good at do do do do do action action action action. Action in the world gives you a lot to do, Like we've never lived on a planet or in an ecosystem that gives you more information and more to do. And so the teams that have got this strength, the strength of pausing, do you think it great at stopping and saying what just happened? Here? Are we still connected? How can we connect better? That That's where the real.

It's pretty contextual. It would depend on the specific one, but I think one very common one is reputational risk status. You know, I can't afford to look dumb. I can't afford to display weakness, which is why in all good cultures. It's funny. I really found this out when I went and visited a Navy seal. His name is Dave Cooper, and Dave, he's a pretty normal looking guy. He's not the best shot, he's not the best swimmer, he can't bench press the most. He's the great at creating high trust teams. That's what he's really great at. And he actually trained the seal Team six that got bin laden. And while we're at breakfast, he says these words. He says, you know, the foremost important words a leader can say, I screwed that up. Just really intriguing. Right, like Navy seals, you should be pretty confident. You should be pretty bulletproof metaphorically and literally, and yet here he is talking about this profound fallibility, and I think what that sheds a light on is how important sharing vulnerability is, especially if you're in a position of power, because that gives everyone, especially people new to the organization, a clear sense that, hey, this is good to talk about this. We're here to get better together. We're here to give each other, make each other better and share that feedback and be fallible and be weak. So it's really important to make that to make that have that moment happen early on. You know, in groups forms, there's like three critical moments when every group forms. Moment one like the first five minutes you're together, it's a big deal, like how are you going to get along? Is it safe? Do people care? Does everyone have a voice? Second one is the first disagreement. We're going to disagree at some point, right, We're going to disagree, and the norms we form around that disagreement are we disagreeing along task conflict, which is we're going to have our ideas, are going to fight and that's a good sort of fight? Or is this personal right? And the third one is the first moment of learning what's going to happen? Are we going to really stop and point out the fact we just got a little better. This is really cool. I'm really glad you gave me that feedback to make me better. So those critical moments, and I think in successful groups they're really good at managing those critical moments, spotlighting them and normalizing them. So it's normal to be safe, it's normal to disagree. Thank you for disagreeing with me. Let's have our ideas fight it out, and it's great to learn you just made me better. Thank you. And if you get those moments right, you're investing in in the future success of the group in a huge way. And yet our temptation is often to like walk past those moments. Right, We're terrible at pausing. Most teams are really good at do do do do do action action action action. Action in the world gives you a lot to do, Like we've never lived on a planet or in an ecosystem that gives you more information and more to do. And so the teams that have got this strength, the strength of pausing, do you think it great at stopping and saying what just happened? Here? Are we still connected? How can we connect better? That That's where the real.

Power is yeah, absolutely, I'm implementing something new my team right now that I've become a big fan of, and we call it teach me how to treat you. So it's people actually saying that, Hey, here's how I would love to be treated when.

Power is yeah, absolutely, I'm implementing something new my team right now that I've become a big fan of, and we call it teach me how to treat you. So it's people actually saying that, Hey, here's how I would love to be treated when.

I'm coming in in a bad mood.

I'm coming in in a bad mood.

Here's how i'd love to be treated when I have a bad idea. Here's how i'd love to be treated when I have a good idea. Here's how i'd love your response to be if we're working virtually. So someone may say I don't like lots of messages virtually. I prefer a phone call right than an instant message, or I prefer i'm if I am feeling down, I prefer you don't ask me about it and we just continue as business as usual because that's easier for me. And what I like about this is that it actually places responsibility on us as individuals to have to explain to others how we work and that first of all, if you don't know that, you get an opportunity to figure that out. Second of all, now you're not coming into the workplace worrying why everyone's acting a certain way, because you've actually asked them to be that way, and so now you're free of that pressure of expectation of everyone tiptoeing around you or not not knowing or worrying what to do. So it's I'd love to share that with you and go do you like that?

Here's how i'd love to be treated when I have a bad idea. Here's how i'd love to be treated when I have a good idea. Here's how i'd love your response to be if we're working virtually. So someone may say I don't like lots of messages virtually. I prefer a phone call right than an instant message, or I prefer i'm if I am feeling down, I prefer you don't ask me about it and we just continue as business as usual because that's easier for me. And what I like about this is that it actually places responsibility on us as individuals to have to explain to others how we work and that first of all, if you don't know that, you get an opportunity to figure that out. Second of all, now you're not coming into the workplace worrying why everyone's acting a certain way, because you've actually asked them to be that way, and so now you're free of that pressure of expectation of everyone tiptoeing around you or not not knowing or worrying what to do. So it's I'd love to share that with you and go do you like that?

Do you not like that?

Do you not like that?

What part of it works? What doesn't work? How can we improve that?

What part of it works? What doesn't work? How can we improve that?

You must have gotten my memo on how to treat me because I love that idea. I think that's it. That's a really, really good idea, and you're not the only one to do it. That's one of the fascinating things about this moment. We're living in a lot of change in the landscape, a lot of change, and one of the biggest that's causing all these experiments. And so what you're describing I've heard described as user's guide. You know, there's manual to me. I mean, we can a quick start guide with our television sets, like why don't we get it? With our people that we work with, it's the exact same thing, and it's very powerful because it creates two moments of reflection. As you just described. First moment, You've got to figure out I'm at my best when I'm at my worst, when what I need from you is, what I don't need from you is and then that person gets an opportunity to see that and reflect. And so, yeah, that is exactly the kind of pause. I think it allows a team to navigate together. And you know, this landscape is asking us to do groups to do two things that are very difficult. Right now, how do you stay connected and change at the same time? You know, hybrid work, huge change, social justice questions, big change in questions, new generations coming into the workplace with a new idea of the social contract around work, huge change. So how do you like stay malleable? You know where I'm connected, but I'm able to reshape myself almost like that flock of birds and navigate together. And I love that. I love that user's manual idea that you have teach me how to treat you. That's really really good.

You must have gotten my memo on how to treat me because I love that idea. I think that's it. That's a really, really good idea, and you're not the only one to do it. That's one of the fascinating things about this moment. We're living in a lot of change in the landscape, a lot of change, and one of the biggest that's causing all these experiments. And so what you're describing I've heard described as user's guide. You know, there's manual to me. I mean, we can a quick start guide with our television sets, like why don't we get it? With our people that we work with, it's the exact same thing, and it's very powerful because it creates two moments of reflection. As you just described. First moment, You've got to figure out I'm at my best when I'm at my worst, when what I need from you is, what I don't need from you is and then that person gets an opportunity to see that and reflect. And so, yeah, that is exactly the kind of pause. I think it allows a team to navigate together. And you know, this landscape is asking us to do groups to do two things that are very difficult. Right now, how do you stay connected and change at the same time? You know, hybrid work, huge change, social justice questions, big change in questions, new generations coming into the workplace with a new idea of the social contract around work, huge change. So how do you like stay malleable? You know where I'm connected, but I'm able to reshape myself almost like that flock of birds and navigate together. And I love that. I love that user's manual idea that you have teach me how to treat you. That's really really good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, And I love hearing the other language for the user manual or the user guide. I think that's really interesting as well. And I could agree with you more. I think I love the idea of the pause that you're saying and filling that pause effectively. And I think one of the biggest things when I pause or I encourage people to pause or I hear from them. I know that a lot of people will be listening right now and say, Jay Daniel, my workplace is a toxic environment, right, it's a negative environment. I struggle with being there sometimes I don't look forward to going to work, or if we're working virtually, I am drained by it, not just by the tech of it, but the actual interactions. What does someone in that scenario, how did they have to How can they think or rethink what they're doing or how they can function in that space?

No, And I love hearing the other language for the user manual or the user guide. I think that's really interesting as well. And I could agree with you more. I think I love the idea of the pause that you're saying and filling that pause effectively. And I think one of the biggest things when I pause or I encourage people to pause or I hear from them. I know that a lot of people will be listening right now and say, Jay Daniel, my workplace is a toxic environment, right, it's a negative environment. I struggle with being there sometimes I don't look forward to going to work, or if we're working virtually, I am drained by it, not just by the tech of it, but the actual interactions. What does someone in that scenario, how did they have to How can they think or rethink what they're doing or how they can function in that space?

Don't think, just run. If it's that toxic, get out. That would be number one. Number two is a saying that I've come to really appreciate, which is that sure is the fifteen feet around you, and there's a circle of control. And there's a lot of things about our life that we cannot control. There's a lot of things about our jobs and particularly that we cannot control. But having positive, healthy, learning, safe interactions with a small group is a doable thing. It is an absolutely doable thing. And one of the exercises we have in the playbook is you have a you are the center of a circle, and then you sort of track your map around you putting the initials of people you work with, and the closer they are to you, the more secure and strong that relationship is. And the idea is to kind of map that in your mind and identify where those strength is and identify where you might want to build and grow those relationships by sending signals of safety and connection, by maybe being vulnerable a little bit, so seeking those things out. And the other thing I think that helps those sorts of situations is to put focus on the learning piece of it. You know, that's the one thing that we're work can often give us opportunity, access to make us better in some small, meaningful way, and trying to seek out those opportunities. There is another very simple concept that I've seen some cultures do that I talk about in the book too. It's called flash mentoring. It's where, you know, getting a mentor is a really big ask, It's a really big deal these heavy relationships. Well, some groups have solved for that by creating flash mentorships where a smaller ask you go to someone you admire, even if it is a largely toxic place, find somebody who's work you admire, and say, would you mind if I just like walked you, you walked me through your typical day, or tell me how you prepared for that presentation, or give me some feedback on this. Smaller, shorter, coffee sized interactions that are built around learning can be a really effective way to get a little bit more out of that work.

Don't think, just run. If it's that toxic, get out. That would be number one. Number two is a saying that I've come to really appreciate, which is that sure is the fifteen feet around you, and there's a circle of control. And there's a lot of things about our life that we cannot control. There's a lot of things about our jobs and particularly that we cannot control. But having positive, healthy, learning, safe interactions with a small group is a doable thing. It is an absolutely doable thing. And one of the exercises we have in the playbook is you have a you are the center of a circle, and then you sort of track your map around you putting the initials of people you work with, and the closer they are to you, the more secure and strong that relationship is. And the idea is to kind of map that in your mind and identify where those strength is and identify where you might want to build and grow those relationships by sending signals of safety and connection, by maybe being vulnerable a little bit, so seeking those things out. And the other thing I think that helps those sorts of situations is to put focus on the learning piece of it. You know, that's the one thing that we're work can often give us opportunity, access to make us better in some small, meaningful way, and trying to seek out those opportunities. There is another very simple concept that I've seen some cultures do that I talk about in the book too. It's called flash mentoring. It's where, you know, getting a mentor is a really big ask, It's a really big deal these heavy relationships. Well, some groups have solved for that by creating flash mentorships where a smaller ask you go to someone you admire, even if it is a largely toxic place, find somebody who's work you admire, and say, would you mind if I just like walked you, you walked me through your typical day, or tell me how you prepared for that presentation, or give me some feedback on this. Smaller, shorter, coffee sized interactions that are built around learning can be a really effective way to get a little bit more out of that work.

Dare Yeah, I really like how specific that is. Often when we think about mentorship, we're like, I want you to be my mentor, and it's like this big life decision and that person may not have time, they may not have the energy. We miss out on the opportunity, as you're saying, to learn something specific in short term that could have an amazing impact. And also that person could see you apply what they just shared with you, and then with that mini experiment they go, oh, I'd love to mentor you further, right, So it builds that trust in these mini bites and chunks rather than someone takes you on. You can't deliver, you have something personal going on, and all of a sudden they feel like, well, why am I wasting my time mentoring this individual too? Where that leads me to a really interesting places. Can people impact and shift culture when they're not the boss, when they're not in charge Is it possible.

Dare Yeah, I really like how specific that is. Often when we think about mentorship, we're like, I want you to be my mentor, and it's like this big life decision and that person may not have time, they may not have the energy. We miss out on the opportunity, as you're saying, to learn something specific in short term that could have an amazing impact. And also that person could see you apply what they just shared with you, and then with that mini experiment they go, oh, I'd love to mentor you further, right, So it builds that trust in these mini bites and chunks rather than someone takes you on. You can't deliver, you have something personal going on, and all of a sudden they feel like, well, why am I wasting my time mentoring this individual too? Where that leads me to a really interesting places. Can people impact and shift culture when they're not the boss, when they're not in charge Is it possible.

Yes, it is, it is. It's difficult. It's difficult, and that the words that I would use are a word that you just use, which is experiment being oblique. I've seen people influence culture when they have a bad boss and the boss doesn't want to change by providing that boss with a book that might you know, sliding in their door, or creating a conversation, or forgetting the boss and just trying to model and create what does a great group look like. Let's have a coffee gathering at ten am every Monday and start talking about creative new ideas and that initiative which is born in that idea. That culture is the fifteen feet around you that you have control over the signals you send. In the larger sense, the idea here is one. It's a really important distinction between the things that are complicated and things that are complex. We often tend to think that culture is just if I do the right thing, the right thing will happen. There'll be some linear effect, like if I just had the right thing to coss right. But that's not actually how it goes. Culture isn't just complicated. Culture is actually complex complicated things. There's a way to do it, like it's building an engine of a Ferrari. Like I can give you the diagram and you can follow the diagram and you'll build it. But complex things change every time you do anything. So it's the difference between you know, building an engine and raising a kid. So every time you do a little experiment, a little probe in the culture area, pay attention to what happens and amplify the good things and kind of ignore the bad things. So if you're building, culture is about doing these constant sort of probes and experiments. Let me try, let me try a book, let me flip him a video, let me show her a conversation that I had recently, Let me try this coffee thing, let me try that, And you'll find as you sort of you'll experiment forward in a direction, and like with any experiment, you'll make some discoveries and you'll and follow that energy and see where it leads. You know, culture is not like legos. It's not like you can just say put this thing on that thing and this thing. It's a conversation. You're having a conversation with your group, and in every conversation you send a signal and then you wait and listen and see where it's going and see what you learned and see what I discovered.

Yes, it is, it is. It's difficult. It's difficult, and that the words that I would use are a word that you just use, which is experiment being oblique. I've seen people influence culture when they have a bad boss and the boss doesn't want to change by providing that boss with a book that might you know, sliding in their door, or creating a conversation, or forgetting the boss and just trying to model and create what does a great group look like. Let's have a coffee gathering at ten am every Monday and start talking about creative new ideas and that initiative which is born in that idea. That culture is the fifteen feet around you that you have control over the signals you send. In the larger sense, the idea here is one. It's a really important distinction between the things that are complicated and things that are complex. We often tend to think that culture is just if I do the right thing, the right thing will happen. There'll be some linear effect, like if I just had the right thing to coss right. But that's not actually how it goes. Culture isn't just complicated. Culture is actually complex complicated things. There's a way to do it, like it's building an engine of a Ferrari. Like I can give you the diagram and you can follow the diagram and you'll build it. But complex things change every time you do anything. So it's the difference between you know, building an engine and raising a kid. So every time you do a little experiment, a little probe in the culture area, pay attention to what happens and amplify the good things and kind of ignore the bad things. So if you're building, culture is about doing these constant sort of probes and experiments. Let me try, let me try a book, let me flip him a video, let me show her a conversation that I had recently, Let me try this coffee thing, let me try that, And you'll find as you sort of you'll experiment forward in a direction, and like with any experiment, you'll make some discoveries and you'll and follow that energy and see where it leads. You know, culture is not like legos. It's not like you can just say put this thing on that thing and this thing. It's a conversation. You're having a conversation with your group, and in every conversation you send a signal and then you wait and listen and see where it's going and see what you learned and see what I discovered.

Yeah, when you're doing that, explore and discover. One thing that's really interesting is that I believe, you know, inside a healthy organization, you'll have good performers and then exceptionally high performers. How do you go about managing an exceptionally high performer within a group because often what happens is high performers are just so productive and effective that they either take on everything themselves or people may struggle to keep up with them or work with them because they can see that this individual is highly independent, highly self motivated. But at the same time, and you see this in sports when I think about you know, when I think about soccer, which is my favorite sport, having grown up in England, you look at stars like Cristiano Ronaldo or Lionel Messi or these phenomenal talents, and then in the US, people like Tom Brady or Lebron James. Right, you have these characters and these personalities. How do you effectively bring them into the world and help people Because in some of those examples, there's a natural respect and admiration for that person because of their almost elite status. But in the workplace it's not always like that. It's not always as clear cut as you know, this person's the one who's who's gonna win us the championship, right.

Yeah, when you're doing that, explore and discover. One thing that's really interesting is that I believe, you know, inside a healthy organization, you'll have good performers and then exceptionally high performers. How do you go about managing an exceptionally high performer within a group because often what happens is high performers are just so productive and effective that they either take on everything themselves or people may struggle to keep up with them or work with them because they can see that this individual is highly independent, highly self motivated. But at the same time, and you see this in sports when I think about you know, when I think about soccer, which is my favorite sport, having grown up in England, you look at stars like Cristiano Ronaldo or Lionel Messi or these phenomenal talents, and then in the US, people like Tom Brady or Lebron James. Right, you have these characters and these personalities. How do you effectively bring them into the world and help people Because in some of those examples, there's a natural respect and admiration for that person because of their almost elite status. But in the workplace it's not always like that. It's not always as clear cut as you know, this person's the one who's who's gonna win us the championship, right.

No, it's interesting, and that's a great analogy with the world of sport. I mean, there are there are occasionally superstars. The way the world is moving though, is that I think a lot of times those superstars reputation exceeds what's actually happening. Our world is so complicated that even with stars, they are inevitably not solo actors. They're not out there doing it around. There is a connective web of people and information and systems that are supporting them. There's a cool study that Adam Grant referenced in a recent book where they took star surgeons, star surgeons from different hospitals away from their teams, and they watched how they performed when they moved to a different hospital. And the same thing with traders, great finance traders, and they saw how they performed when they changed firms. When these people lost contact with their system of support, their their performance went back to average. I think the cultural move here is to not to celebrate the star, but to illuminate the support, to spend time talking about praising in certain case, illuminating spotlighting, making mantras around the collective activity that's producing. Who passed the ball to Rinaldo you know who cleared away the defense so that he had a clear move in. I think that's a much more healthy place to go, especially as our world moves more and more into these you know, collective spaces. You know, lately we've been seeing all of these films about toxic founders of tech firms. Right, we were faranos uber. And the reason that all those tragedies happened was that everybody believed in the myth of the superstar. Everyone believed that Elizabeth Holmes is different, Travis Kalnick is different, you know, Adam Newman is different, and that is not true. Like those people do not exist anymore. There was a time, I'll bet Henry Ford had more in his brain than anybody else, and he was the person you should go to for vision direction and he had the answers. But we live in a world that moves way too fast. We move in a world that's way too complex. To go back to that word, to have any single person. So if any person comes up and says I have all the answers, that is a huge red flag that they definitely don't. As Pete Seeger said, be wary of great leaders, hope for many good small leaders, right, And I think there's a deep truth in that. And so having a system that celebrates stars is as we move into this area, as we move into our future where things are moving faster than ever, more interconnected than ever, that's a less healthy approach than the team that we have a bunch of stars and everybody's playing a role and is aware and helpful, useful.

No, it's interesting, and that's a great analogy with the world of sport. I mean, there are there are occasionally superstars. The way the world is moving though, is that I think a lot of times those superstars reputation exceeds what's actually happening. Our world is so complicated that even with stars, they are inevitably not solo actors. They're not out there doing it around. There is a connective web of people and information and systems that are supporting them. There's a cool study that Adam Grant referenced in a recent book where they took star surgeons, star surgeons from different hospitals away from their teams, and they watched how they performed when they moved to a different hospital. And the same thing with traders, great finance traders, and they saw how they performed when they changed firms. When these people lost contact with their system of support, their their performance went back to average. I think the cultural move here is to not to celebrate the star, but to illuminate the support, to spend time talking about praising in certain case, illuminating spotlighting, making mantras around the collective activity that's producing. Who passed the ball to Rinaldo you know who cleared away the defense so that he had a clear move in. I think that's a much more healthy place to go, especially as our world moves more and more into these you know, collective spaces. You know, lately we've been seeing all of these films about toxic founders of tech firms. Right, we were faranos uber. And the reason that all those tragedies happened was that everybody believed in the myth of the superstar. Everyone believed that Elizabeth Holmes is different, Travis Kalnick is different, you know, Adam Newman is different, and that is not true. Like those people do not exist anymore. There was a time, I'll bet Henry Ford had more in his brain than anybody else, and he was the person you should go to for vision direction and he had the answers. But we live in a world that moves way too fast. We move in a world that's way too complex. To go back to that word, to have any single person. So if any person comes up and says I have all the answers, that is a huge red flag that they definitely don't. As Pete Seeger said, be wary of great leaders, hope for many good small leaders, right, And I think there's a deep truth in that. And so having a system that celebrates stars is as we move into this area, as we move into our future where things are moving faster than ever, more interconnected than ever, that's a less healthy approach than the team that we have a bunch of stars and everybody's playing a role and is aware and helpful, useful.

I really appreciate that, because, yeah, it's an interesting dynamic because I think back to when I was in the workplace, and so I worked at Accentia for a few years and you know, had a really great career there, have a really great relationship with the company, and it was a phenomenal time for me. I learned a lot, developed a lot, and I found that there were some leaders that were just exceptional at championing young talent, you know, at other times in organizations, I found that a lot of leaders are intimidated by young talent or condescending towards and they feel like, well, what do you know, You've only been around for two minutes. And I think that balance is really interesting because as much as you don't want to put too much value on star culture, you don't want to damp and star potential because I think that's I saw so many friends leave organizations when I knew that person was really talented, and I knew that person had so much to offer, but the company wasn't able to understand and then dial that in. And that's something that I say to everyone on my team that as much as I want them to have a professional goal and a personal goal they want to learn, but beyond both of those, I want them to have a goal that is about their potential, and I want to be the person to help them fulfill their potential. Like that's always one of the things I say to anyone who joins our company. It's like, I want you to fulfill your potential here or even if it's not here, I want you to fulfill your potential. I want to be a part of that because I know that I would have wanted to hear that when I joined an organization, and I never really felt that I heard that as clearly, and I found that you know, for some people who is that, well, if you leave, then we don't you know, you're no longer connected to us. And if you stay, then you play by our rules. And I think that was always a really, really fascinating thing.

I really appreciate that, because, yeah, it's an interesting dynamic because I think back to when I was in the workplace, and so I worked at Accentia for a few years and you know, had a really great career there, have a really great relationship with the company, and it was a phenomenal time for me. I learned a lot, developed a lot, and I found that there were some leaders that were just exceptional at championing young talent, you know, at other times in organizations, I found that a lot of leaders are intimidated by young talent or condescending towards and they feel like, well, what do you know, You've only been around for two minutes. And I think that balance is really interesting because as much as you don't want to put too much value on star culture, you don't want to damp and star potential because I think that's I saw so many friends leave organizations when I knew that person was really talented, and I knew that person had so much to offer, but the company wasn't able to understand and then dial that in. And that's something that I say to everyone on my team that as much as I want them to have a professional goal and a personal goal they want to learn, but beyond both of those, I want them to have a goal that is about their potential, and I want to be the person to help them fulfill their potential. Like that's always one of the things I say to anyone who joins our company. It's like, I want you to fulfill your potential here or even if it's not here, I want you to fulfill your potential. I want to be a part of that because I know that I would have wanted to hear that when I joined an organization, and I never really felt that I heard that as clearly, and I found that you know, for some people who is that, well, if you leave, then we don't you know, you're no longer connected to us. And if you stay, then you play by our rules. And I think that was always a really, really fascinating thing.

So enlightened as there's certain points where being morally good and being smart crossover and actually are the same thing. And that's a moment where it is and I see that over and over again. There's a I do some consulting for the Cleveland Guardians baseball team, and occasionally one of our assistant coaches will get an opportunity to be a head coach and another team, and there's a bit of a tradition, a habit of custom that when that coach gets that interview, the front office of circles around that person and helps them, helps them build their worksheets, helps them build their plan, tells them what suit to wear. It gives them contextual information and sends them on their way. And it's a beautiful thing. You're losing someone, but you are deepening a relationship. And life is long. You know, people will circle back around and you will always have that relationship. And I think that's I think that's a very enlightened and wise way to approach that sort of off boarding moment.

So enlightened as there's certain points where being morally good and being smart crossover and actually are the same thing. And that's a moment where it is and I see that over and over again. There's a I do some consulting for the Cleveland Guardians baseball team, and occasionally one of our assistant coaches will get an opportunity to be a head coach and another team, and there's a bit of a tradition, a habit of custom that when that coach gets that interview, the front office of circles around that person and helps them, helps them build their worksheets, helps them build their plan, tells them what suit to wear. It gives them contextual information and sends them on their way. And it's a beautiful thing. You're losing someone, but you are deepening a relationship. And life is long. You know, people will circle back around and you will always have that relationship. And I think that's I think that's a very enlightened and wise way to approach that sort of off boarding moment.

Yeah, I think moving forward with that, there's something that I find which I really loved from your book, and I'm excited to see how the playbook makes this more practical and applicable. And that's what I love about the culture Code. It really dulls you into the philosophy, and I'm guessing the playbook allows you to really, you know, take action on those ideas, which which I think is a brilliant combination. Let's talk wout two really interesting things in the workplace, gratitude and appreciation and then feedback. And the challenge with gratitude is that it can come across as flattery and cheap words. And the challenge with feedback is that it can come across as criticism or judgment. Walk us through what you found is the best ways of showing praise, gratitude and appreciation and the best ways of giving feedback inside an organization that actually helps the person digest how you're feeling and what you want them to take away larger.

Yeah, I think moving forward with that, there's something that I find which I really loved from your book, and I'm excited to see how the playbook makes this more practical and applicable. And that's what I love about the culture Code. It really dulls you into the philosophy, and I'm guessing the playbook allows you to really, you know, take action on those ideas, which which I think is a brilliant combination. Let's talk wout two really interesting things in the workplace, gratitude and appreciation and then feedback. And the challenge with gratitude is that it can come across as flattery and cheap words. And the challenge with feedback is that it can come across as criticism or judgment. Walk us through what you found is the best ways of showing praise, gratitude and appreciation and the best ways of giving feedback inside an organization that actually helps the person digest how you're feeling and what you want them to take away larger.

Yeah, that was a g I really love that this idea around appreciation of continually reflecting back someone's impact, and impact ends up being a really, really important word. There's a certain kind of appreciation that happens to good culture that is rarely talked about. It was introduced to me by the people at Pixar, who talk about the pleasure of solving hard problems with people you admire, the pleasure of Harvard solving hard problems with people you admire. There's a misnomer, sort of this mistaken idea that life in top performing cultures is always happy and positive, that if you were to go work at Pixar, that you go to a meeting and every idea would be a brilliant idea and everyone would applaud and then every draft of the movie would be better and better and better than the last. In fact, when you go to that place, as well as any other place, it's not that way. There's profound disagreement, there's profound tension, but they're circled up around that problem shoulder to shoulder, trying to figure out how to make it better, and that the pleasure of that, the appreciation they have for each other in those moments, is very special. In fact, people will leave cultures and often come back for that feeling. That's a special feeling, but specifically with appreciation. I think we have to go back to that word impact. When appreciation is bad, it sounds like sort of at a boy, what a coach would tell a player a nice job, good job, go, And it's vague, it's generalized, it's not specific to the person when it's good. And I saw an example of this, and I think I wrote about it in the playbook. One example is a weekly impact note. There was a it's where you once a week make the habit of capturing the impact your team has had on the world and on the group, crystallizing it in a very very specific language, and sharing it back to the team, almost like a little newspaper of the week. Here's the impact we had in the world this week. This health clinic that did it would gather patient feedback and they would say, Nurse Johnson treated me really nicely, really warmly. They would share that back. So that idea of continually reflecting back, which actually connects to the purpose conversation, because you always end up I think using those moments of appreciation as a way to spotlight your north star as kind of a beacon to say, here's what we look like at our best. If we can define that and feel that, and name those behaviors and feel those. The better we get at that, the better we're going to function, the better we're going to perform. When it comes to feedback, I have a problem with the whole word. The whole concept is a little bit off. It's wrong the idea that someone can watch me work and get little samples, tiny sample sizes of my work, and then once every six month, come in and tell me what I'm doing well and what I'm doing poorly. The studies actually show that most feedback is pretty darn and accurate. It's based. We tend to be biased toward people that resemble us. We tend to be biased toward the most immediate work they've done. It ends up often creating a bad interaction because you have someone who is not informed and not ready trying to kind of muscle up to deliver some feedback to somebody underneath them, and it's got all kinds of problems that break apart groups good feedback. A better way to do it was taught to me by a woman named Ellen ven Houston, who teaches leadership at Case Western University. She flips it. Instead of giving someone feedback, you ask them two questions. It's the more differently question. You ask them, what do you think you should do more of? It's a really powerful question actually, and I'm not trying to tell you anything. I'm just saying it creates a reflection where they have to say, what's had the biggest impact lately? Where have I learned the most? What am I most excited by? What you should do more? And the second question is what do you think you should do differently? That's without being aggressive or threatening. That's another one that gets me to ponder where I might want to change my mind. So creating these kind of safe zones to have the reflection is really what feedback's about. So I see a lot of groups moving away from the big semi annual annual review where you're going to get the truth which isn't really the truth from someone who doesn't really know, and moving toward these coaching conversations where they're continually asking those questions, what's working right now, what are you excited about? What are you worried about right now? Let's talk about that and see again, it's that conversational nature of culture building that is at the core of it's like it's like photosynthesis, right, You've got to have these conversations and they'll they'll grow you.

Yeah, that was a g I really love that this idea around appreciation of continually reflecting back someone's impact, and impact ends up being a really, really important word. There's a certain kind of appreciation that happens to good culture that is rarely talked about. It was introduced to me by the people at Pixar, who talk about the pleasure of solving hard problems with people you admire, the pleasure of Harvard solving hard problems with people you admire. There's a misnomer, sort of this mistaken idea that life in top performing cultures is always happy and positive, that if you were to go work at Pixar, that you go to a meeting and every idea would be a brilliant idea and everyone would applaud and then every draft of the movie would be better and better and better than the last. In fact, when you go to that place, as well as any other place, it's not that way. There's profound disagreement, there's profound tension, but they're circled up around that problem shoulder to shoulder, trying to figure out how to make it better, and that the pleasure of that, the appreciation they have for each other in those moments, is very special. In fact, people will leave cultures and often come back for that feeling. That's a special feeling, but specifically with appreciation. I think we have to go back to that word impact. When appreciation is bad, it sounds like sort of at a boy, what a coach would tell a player a nice job, good job, go, And it's vague, it's generalized, it's not specific to the person when it's good. And I saw an example of this, and I think I wrote about it in the playbook. One example is a weekly impact note. There was a it's where you once a week make the habit of capturing the impact your team has had on the world and on the group, crystallizing it in a very very specific language, and sharing it back to the team, almost like a little newspaper of the week. Here's the impact we had in the world this week. This health clinic that did it would gather patient feedback and they would say, Nurse Johnson treated me really nicely, really warmly. They would share that back. So that idea of continually reflecting back, which actually connects to the purpose conversation, because you always end up I think using those moments of appreciation as a way to spotlight your north star as kind of a beacon to say, here's what we look like at our best. If we can define that and feel that, and name those behaviors and feel those. The better we get at that, the better we're going to function, the better we're going to perform. When it comes to feedback, I have a problem with the whole word. The whole concept is a little bit off. It's wrong the idea that someone can watch me work and get little samples, tiny sample sizes of my work, and then once every six month, come in and tell me what I'm doing well and what I'm doing poorly. The studies actually show that most feedback is pretty darn and accurate. It's based. We tend to be biased toward people that resemble us. We tend to be biased toward the most immediate work they've done. It ends up often creating a bad interaction because you have someone who is not informed and not ready trying to kind of muscle up to deliver some feedback to somebody underneath them, and it's got all kinds of problems that break apart groups good feedback. A better way to do it was taught to me by a woman named Ellen ven Houston, who teaches leadership at Case Western University. She flips it. Instead of giving someone feedback, you ask them two questions. It's the more differently question. You ask them, what do you think you should do more of? It's a really powerful question actually, and I'm not trying to tell you anything. I'm just saying it creates a reflection where they have to say, what's had the biggest impact lately? Where have I learned the most? What am I most excited by? What you should do more? And the second question is what do you think you should do differently? That's without being aggressive or threatening. That's another one that gets me to ponder where I might want to change my mind. So creating these kind of safe zones to have the reflection is really what feedback's about. So I see a lot of groups moving away from the big semi annual annual review where you're going to get the truth which isn't really the truth from someone who doesn't really know, and moving toward these coaching conversations where they're continually asking those questions, what's working right now, what are you excited about? What are you worried about right now? Let's talk about that and see again, it's that conversational nature of culture building that is at the core of it's like it's like photosynthesis, right, You've got to have these conversations and they'll they'll grow you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love how you just, you know, busted the myth around feedback, right, Like I think that there's so much emphasis on how to give the perfect feedback or how to give the right feedback, And you do give an amazing example that you I think extrapolate from both popovic and school exams and school essays and how feedback is given to students who perform really well in the Culture Code, which which I loved, which was that safety making them feel a part of something bigger and also sharing it with them knowing that you're saying, I actually know that you can reach this level, Like I actually believe you can get there.

I love how you just, you know, busted the myth around feedback, right, Like I think that there's so much emphasis on how to give the perfect feedback or how to give the right feedback, And you do give an amazing example that you I think extrapolate from both popovic and school exams and school essays and how feedback is given to students who perform really well in the Culture Code, which which I loved, which was that safety making them feel a part of something bigger and also sharing it with them knowing that you're saying, I actually know that you can reach this level, Like I actually believe you can get there.

But what you've said right now, I.

But what you've said right now, I.

Think is really really incredible because you're so right that we think that based on a small sample of observation, we can make a judgment about someone's performance, and the truth is that we don't know their intention, We don't know why they did that, we don't know what they were thinking about. Maybe they were three steps ahead and something else went wrong, Like we just have no idea, And those questions are really brilliant.

Think is really really incredible because you're so right that we think that based on a small sample of observation, we can make a judgment about someone's performance, and the truth is that we don't know their intention, We don't know why they did that, we don't know what they were thinking about. Maybe they were three steps ahead and something else went wrong, Like we just have no idea, And those questions are really brilliant.

I found this.

I found this.

So in our organization, what we do is we do a quarterly review, which includes a self assessment and then a joint manager assessment. And what I find really interesting every time I do that is how wrong I am and how differently I'm thinking in the sense of often I'm placing more emphasis on something else that seems to be important to me, and I'm not able to see what the person is emphasizing. But that conversation opens it up. So we sit down and we're doing a you know, they've done their self assessment. I say, hey, how do you think you've been performing in this area and why? And they will list of all these things that they've done well or things they need to do less off or differently, and I'm thinking, wow, I didn't even think about how off of those things, Like how incredible is it that this is giving me an opportunity to even be more grateful and appreciate this person more. And I've found something really interesting. And obviously this is not verifiable statistically, because I'm it's anecdotal.

So in our organization, what we do is we do a quarterly review, which includes a self assessment and then a joint manager assessment. And what I find really interesting every time I do that is how wrong I am and how differently I'm thinking in the sense of often I'm placing more emphasis on something else that seems to be important to me, and I'm not able to see what the person is emphasizing. But that conversation opens it up. So we sit down and we're doing a you know, they've done their self assessment. I say, hey, how do you think you've been performing in this area and why? And they will list of all these things that they've done well or things they need to do less off or differently, and I'm thinking, wow, I didn't even think about how off of those things, Like how incredible is it that this is giving me an opportunity to even be more grateful and appreciate this person more. And I've found something really interesting. And obviously this is not verifiable statistically, because I'm it's anecdotal.

For me.

For me.

I found that the top performers inside my organization are people who give themselves lower ratings than I give them so often that I'll be sitting down with some of my best people and in every review they'll rank.

I found that the top performers inside my organization are people who give themselves lower ratings than I give them so often that I'll be sitting down with some of my best people and in every review they'll rank.

Themselves lower than I did.

Themselves lower than I did.

And I'm sitting there going I give it like you're amazing, like you know you're incredible, and they they are actually looking at more ways to improve. And I find that so fascinating as a trend that I've seen over time.

And I'm sitting there going I give it like you're amazing, like you know you're incredible, and they they are actually looking at more ways to improve. And I find that so fascinating as a trend that I've seen over time.

I love that. No, it's very true. It's certainly true in the sports world. You asked, you know, somebody's doing doing Brilliantly, Ask Christianna how I was doing, and I might not say brilliant. So it's a measure of there in these internal narratives that we don't really have access to, these internal standards, and an approach of humility. There is a Navy seal commander who called it, called it a backbone of humility that's required with leadership. And I love that phrase because the humility is really it's a strength. This is not humility, isn't bending. It's actually being strong enough to realize I'm actually only seeing a tiny part of the picture here. And I need to learn. I need to be humbly. I need to humbly learn what's happening in this situation.