You're listening to a Mother Maya podcast.

You're listening to a Mother Maya podcast.

Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

I didn't know my real name or his real name until after that point. So when I was known and the Scott Into I turned up on the doorstep. A week or so later, a mom took us aside and told us that dad had committed a crime when we were young, and he was in trouble with the law and the police were looking for him, and he had gone into hiding. That this had been going on for our whole lives.

I didn't know my real name or his real name until after that point. So when I was known and the Scott Into I turned up on the doorstep. A week or so later, a mom took us aside and told us that dad had committed a crime when we were young, and he was in trouble with the law and the police were looking for him, and he had gone into hiding. That this had been going on for our whole lives.

From Mama Maya, you're listening to no filter. I'm Kate Langbrook, and as far as I know, I've always been Kate lane Brook. In fact, I was Catherine Langbrook, but I knew that was me. Tyler Weatherall had to rediscover who her parents were countless times, and it makes you think, how much do you really know about your parents when you're a kid. If you're fortunate, you get to take that for granted that their mom and dad do. They just head off to work, maybe in a suit, and your main concern is what's on the dinner table that night. For Tyler things were a little different. She was just nine years old when she began to realize that her dad didn't have a conventional job. In fact, he didn't really have a job at all, unless you consider running from the law as a fugitive a job. It wasn't until Tyler was an adult and after the law had caught up with her dad, that she began to make sense of her childhood and understand who her father had been all along. It is a wild story, And as I read her memoir No Way Home, all I kept thinking was.

From Mama Maya, you're listening to no filter. I'm Kate Langbrook, and as far as I know, I've always been Kate lane Brook. In fact, I was Catherine Langbrook, but I knew that was me. Tyler Weatherall had to rediscover who her parents were countless times, and it makes you think, how much do you really know about your parents when you're a kid. If you're fortunate, you get to take that for granted that their mom and dad do. They just head off to work, maybe in a suit, and your main concern is what's on the dinner table that night. For Tyler things were a little different. She was just nine years old when she began to realize that her dad didn't have a conventional job. In fact, he didn't really have a job at all, unless you consider running from the law as a fugitive a job. It wasn't until Tyler was an adult and after the law had caught up with her dad, that she began to make sense of her childhood and understand who her father had been all along. It is a wild story, And as I read her memoir No Way Home, all I kept thinking was.

This sounds like a movie script. Tyler weatherall, Yes, this has been said.

This sounds like a movie script. Tyler weatherall, Yes, this has been said.

It's hard to believe sometimes that it all was true.

It's hard to believe sometimes that it all was true.

And that it happened to you in your life and what happened to you or the life that you lived started really even from before you were born. Yes, definitely, and with a huge cast, well not a huge cast, but a huge cast of characters because they assumed a lot of different identities.

And that it happened to you in your life and what happened to you or the life that you lived started really even from before you were born. Yes, definitely, and with a huge cast, well not a huge cast, but a huge cast of characters because they assumed a lot of different identities.

And different names. But the patriarch was your dad. Can you talk us through first of all, because I'm very well aware that.

And different names. But the patriarch was your dad. Can you talk us through first of all, because I'm very well aware that.

In your book, your memoir Life on the Run with a Fugitive Dad, you kind of play with the timeline of it, what you realized through the prism of being a young child versus what you realized in adulthood and in retrospect playing out. But for the purpose of our listeners, we're going to try and tell her in a more sort of linear sense. Can you introduce me and our listeners to you and your family members.

In your book, your memoir Life on the Run with a Fugitive Dad, you kind of play with the timeline of it, what you realized through the prism of being a young child versus what you realized in adulthood and in retrospect playing out. But for the purpose of our listeners, we're going to try and tell her in a more sort of linear sense. Can you introduce me and our listeners to you and your family members.

So there's five of us. My mom and my dad actually met in the sixties, fell in love, lost touch with each other, then met up again in the late seventies and got back together. So it was a lifelong love story for both of them. My eldest brother, Evan, he is seven years older than me. He actually has a different dad, my mom's second marriage. And then there is my middle sister, Caitlin, who is two and a half years older than me and me and her have the same dad. And then me, I'm the baby of the family.

So there's five of us. My mom and my dad actually met in the sixties, fell in love, lost touch with each other, then met up again in the late seventies and got back together. So it was a lifelong love story for both of them. My eldest brother, Evan, he is seven years older than me. He actually has a different dad, my mom's second marriage. And then there is my middle sister, Caitlin, who is two and a half years older than me and me and her have the same dad. And then me, I'm the baby of the family.

Your mom's name Sarah Sarah, So they had this, i mean also very sweeting love story. Your mom was very young, she was very beautiful, She was a model.

Your mom's name Sarah Sarah, So they had this, i mean also very sweeting love story. Your mom was very young, she was very beautiful, She was a model.

Her life story in of itself could have been an entire book, or in fact several. Her story is incredible. She ran away from home at sixteen years old and married a forty year old film director her first marriage, who'd met her walking down the Chelsea Road and fallen for her. He realized that she was pretty much no good as a wife and wasn't really up to doing anner, so he sent her out with a portfolio photos that he had taken and had sort of started her modeling career, which took her to Paris, and then it took her to New York. And in New York, that's where she met my dad while she was still with her first husband, and three days later she decided he was way more fun and much more exciting and walked out on her first husband and moved in with my dad, and that's where their story began. She is a deeply independent, wildly intelligent, brilliant and funny, totally original and totally unpredictable. You know. She would come out with wonderful wittessisms all the time, and she's one of these delightful people that I think when she walks into a room, she's that person that everyone notices, and she has always been that way. So she was that way, you know, until the very end, and I think that was what my dad felt for when she walked into his apartment as a seventeen eighteen year old.

Her life story in of itself could have been an entire book, or in fact several. Her story is incredible. She ran away from home at sixteen years old and married a forty year old film director her first marriage, who'd met her walking down the Chelsea Road and fallen for her. He realized that she was pretty much no good as a wife and wasn't really up to doing anner, so he sent her out with a portfolio photos that he had taken and had sort of started her modeling career, which took her to Paris, and then it took her to New York. And in New York, that's where she met my dad while she was still with her first husband, and three days later she decided he was way more fun and much more exciting and walked out on her first husband and moved in with my dad, and that's where their story began. She is a deeply independent, wildly intelligent, brilliant and funny, totally original and totally unpredictable. You know. She would come out with wonderful wittessisms all the time, and she's one of these delightful people that I think when she walks into a room, she's that person that everyone notices, and she has always been that way. So she was that way, you know, until the very end, and I think that was what my dad felt for when she walked into his apartment as a seventeen eighteen year old.

So when Sarah met beIN, what was been doing at that time.

So when Sarah met beIN, what was been doing at that time.

So my dad was born in New York and actually had a very wholesome middle class upbringing and a second generation Jewish family. I went to college and he was working on Wall Street. I think at the time he might have been with Ella Frostchild. So his career was very much starting as a person in finance, and then he would pack up, weigh his suit, put in his locker at work, put on a cape and a pair of cowboy boots, and go out nine party.

So my dad was born in New York and actually had a very wholesome middle class upbringing and a second generation Jewish family. I went to college and he was working on Wall Street. I think at the time he might have been with Ella Frostchild. So his career was very much starting as a person in finance, and then he would pack up, weigh his suit, put in his locker at work, put on a cape and a pair of cowboy boots, and go out nine party.

Okay, So that was very much I guess that wild kind of Wall straight.

Okay, So that was very much I guess that wild kind of Wall straight.

I mean, it could have been a white pick at.

I mean, it could have been a white pick at.

Fence, but these were people who were kind of not normies at heart.

Fence, but these were people who were kind of not normies at heart.

Yeah, and I don't think my dad was necessarily representative of his Wall Street community he had. You know, he is a deep lover of pleasure. He's a hedonist at heart, a lover of people. I think there was two versions of him. There was a version that found excitement on Wall Street, which is really just a form of sort of gambling, which he also loved. And then at night he had this alternative life where he was hanging out with artists and musicians, and I think he was always drawn to that something, you know, he and I share, Like one of his early gigs before he was in the drug business, was he to have Brian Epstein at a party, and Brian had taken a shine to him and hired him to roll joints for the Beatles. So when I did really think was rolling joints, packing them in a cigarette packet, giving them to Brian Epstein and saying, you know, these were going to the Beatles. So you know, he was having a pretty wild time. And that was when he was still at college, so he was moving in these worlds, and as was my mum when she as a model in the city, So they were both kind of part of a very interesting scene, you know. She'd even as after the book was finished, I'd hear stories that she'd tell me that I didn't know at the time when I was writing this, and she told me that one time she set fire to her apartment on the Apprai side and had nowhere to go, so she moved into the Chelsea Hotel, was moving down with that whole set there, you know, And I had no idea she'd live there, right.

Yeah, and I don't think my dad was necessarily representative of his Wall Street community he had. You know, he is a deep lover of pleasure. He's a hedonist at heart, a lover of people. I think there was two versions of him. There was a version that found excitement on Wall Street, which is really just a form of sort of gambling, which he also loved. And then at night he had this alternative life where he was hanging out with artists and musicians, and I think he was always drawn to that something, you know, he and I share, Like one of his early gigs before he was in the drug business, was he to have Brian Epstein at a party, and Brian had taken a shine to him and hired him to roll joints for the Beatles. So when I did really think was rolling joints, packing them in a cigarette packet, giving them to Brian Epstein and saying, you know, these were going to the Beatles. So you know, he was having a pretty wild time. And that was when he was still at college, so he was moving in these worlds, and as was my mum when she as a model in the city, So they were both kind of part of a very interesting scene, you know. She'd even as after the book was finished, I'd hear stories that she'd tell me that I didn't know at the time when I was writing this, and she told me that one time she set fire to her apartment on the Apprai side and had nowhere to go, so she moved into the Chelsea Hotel, was moving down with that whole set there, you know, And I had no idea she'd live there, right.

How did the fire start? By the way, do we know was it candles? Was it a joint?

How did the fire start? By the way, do we know was it candles? Was it a joint?

I think it was AND's burning in the classic.

I think it was AND's burning in the classic.

So we know that your dad obviously when you were saying he was, he was a bon vivant. Basically, he's the sort of man that you could fall in love with after three dates and up end your whole life.

So we know that your dad obviously when you were saying he was, he was a bon vivant. Basically, he's the sort of man that you could fall in love with after three dates and up end your whole life.

Definitely. I think in some ways Mum was also the person who would say yes to you know, someone opens the door and there's an interesting room and side and she's going to walk into it if it amuses her, and I think they fell in love. It was really for both of them their first major of love. Mum's first husband had really been to escape what was for her quite a difficult childhood, and she saw him as a way out. And then when she met Dad, I think the two of them fell hard for each other and by the sounds of it, were having the times of their lives, well, early sixties, very wild and fun.

Definitely. I think in some ways Mum was also the person who would say yes to you know, someone opens the door and there's an interesting room and side and she's going to walk into it if it amuses her, and I think they fell in love. It was really for both of them their first major of love. Mum's first husband had really been to escape what was for her quite a difficult childhood, and she saw him as a way out. And then when she met Dad, I think the two of them fell hard for each other and by the sounds of it, were having the times of their lives, well, early sixties, very wild and fun.

I want to read this from an essay that you wrote. I would later learn that when I first arrived in England in nineteen eighty seven as a three year old girl. My family was on the run from the FBI. Dad's organization had been charged with smuggling one hundred tons of marijuana worth nearly half a billion dollars from Thailand into the US in the late seventies and early eighties. The investigation started before I was born. By the time I was one, there was a surveillance team at the end of our driveway. So your dad went from rolling joints for the beatles to basically running is that a consortium?

I want to read this from an essay that you wrote. I would later learn that when I first arrived in England in nineteen eighty seven as a three year old girl. My family was on the run from the FBI. Dad's organization had been charged with smuggling one hundred tons of marijuana worth nearly half a billion dollars from Thailand into the US in the late seventies and early eighties. The investigation started before I was born. By the time I was one, there was a surveillance team at the end of our driveway. So your dad went from rolling joints for the beatles to basically running is that a consortium?

Was he a drug overlord?

Was he a drug overlord?

Like?

Like?

What was he in the scheme of things that led the FBI to be survailing him and the whole family.

What was he in the scheme of things that led the FBI to be survailing him and the whole family.

Well, the official charges continued criminal enterprise a CCEE or the al capone charge. In their eyes, he was a kingpin. In his eyes, he was an outlaw.

Well, the official charges continued criminal enterprise a CCEE or the al capone charge. In their eyes, he was a kingpin. In his eyes, he was an outlaw.

R tons one hundred tons of outlaw.

R tons one hundred tons of outlaw.

Yeah, he got really carried away. I think it's easy to say that things grew very quickly, and every time he got away with it, it cemented in him the belief that he could get away with it and he was never going to get caught. And I think the sense of being impervious to harm and having luck on your side, and the kind of the cheek of it, almost the audacity that the hoobris is immense, but incrementally over time from those first joints rolled for the Beatles to that point with the kingping charge. Because he hadn't got in trouble until the very last deal, or any trouble that had come he'd been able to deal with through his connections or through money. I think he felt like nothing could, nothing could bring him down, and in his eyes, no one was getting hurt. In his eyes, it was a victimless crime. It was part everyone was smoking it and he was getting him and his friends very rich.

Yeah, he got really carried away. I think it's easy to say that things grew very quickly, and every time he got away with it, it cemented in him the belief that he could get away with it and he was never going to get caught. And I think the sense of being impervious to harm and having luck on your side, and the kind of the cheek of it, almost the audacity that the hoobris is immense, but incrementally over time from those first joints rolled for the Beatles to that point with the kingping charge. Because he hadn't got in trouble until the very last deal, or any trouble that had come he'd been able to deal with through his connections or through money. I think he felt like nothing could, nothing could bring him down, and in his eyes, no one was getting hurt. In his eyes, it was a victimless crime. It was part everyone was smoking it and he was getting him and his friends very rich.

Well, I had to get it from some way, exactly.

Well, I had to get it from some way, exactly.

Yeah. And I think part, you know, when he was starting out in the business, it was under Jimmy Carter. It was the sixties, people rolling joints and smoking them in the cinema, walking down the streets. It was a very different environment than what happened under Reagan and what happened once it was the eighties. And I think he didn't update his you know, his risk analysis. Things had changed and we were taking or were enormous at that point, and he had a lot to lose at that stage.

Yeah. And I think part, you know, when he was starting out in the business, it was under Jimmy Carter. It was the sixties, people rolling joints and smoking them in the cinema, walking down the streets. It was a very different environment than what happened under Reagan and what happened once it was the eighties. And I think he didn't update his you know, his risk analysis. Things had changed and we were taking or were enormous at that point, and he had a lot to lose at that stage.

She was a doubt he didn't update his risk analysis, but he was hitting his KPIs.

She was a doubt he didn't update his risk analysis, but he was hitting his KPIs.

From the sense of things.

From the sense of things.

Yeah, I think that that's fair to say. I think maybe he over exceeded his KPIs in fact. Yeah, when he started out, Dad would often talk about having a very He thought of himself as very risk adverse, which is obviously everybody else quite hilarious what he was taking on, But for him, he was He approached the drug business with the tools he'd learned on Wall Street and felt like he was analyzing. He was assessing these risks as he was going along and deciding what risks he could take, which is why it grew incrementally, because he would be looking at it like a business structure of supply and demand and risk assessment. He approached it with that mindset, which is probably why he was good at it to the point.

Yeah, I think that that's fair to say. I think maybe he over exceeded his KPIs in fact. Yeah, when he started out, Dad would often talk about having a very He thought of himself as very risk adverse, which is obviously everybody else quite hilarious what he was taking on, But for him, he was He approached the drug business with the tools he'd learned on Wall Street and felt like he was analyzing. He was assessing these risks as he was going along and deciding what risks he could take, which is why it grew incrementally, because he would be looking at it like a business structure of supply and demand and risk assessment. He approached it with that mindset, which is probably why he was good at it to the point.

Yeah, but you were only a child at that time time, At what point in your and very young child, at what point did you realize that your dad was in trouble with law and when you discovered that and the impact that that had on your life.

Yeah, but you were only a child at that time time, At what point in your and very young child, at what point did you realize that your dad was in trouble with law and when you discovered that and the impact that that had on your life.

Yeah, I had no idea growing up. We just accept the world that were given as kids. We don't question, we don't start to question, so we're a bit older. So as a girl, a young girl when I you know, I was born in California, which is where dad got in trouble and we went on the run when I was eighteen months old, so I was very young. So my first memories were in houses in Portugal and then France and then the UK, and then my parents separated when I was four, so all I had ever known was kind of those early years, having a sitinerant existence, and then my dad being this exciting, fun guy that would take me on holidays in ski trips, and I understood there was something unusual about our family. We'd lived in by the time I was nine years old, thirteen houses in five countries, and I knew that that wasn't normal, but I quite enjoyed the ways in which it wasn't normal. I would tell people and I could see that they found it odd, and I liked that curiosity, that thing that made me different. I never really questioned the excuses that my parents gave me for why our childhood did be in that way. I really had no idea until two agents from Scotland Yard turned up when I was nine years old. On our doorstep in our house that we lived in with mom now in Bradford and Even and they turned up one day looking for Dad, and Mom didn't tell us straight away. She sent us out to go to a neighbor's house, and we ended up staying the night at the neighbor's house. And I remember my sister and I thinking that that was odd, but not really being able to think about why it might be odd. Certainly we didn't suspect what was actually happening, which is what they brought my mum in for questioning. They were looking for Dad, and that was when it all started up again. He had us essentially escaped their attention from California, gone into false identity. The identity that I grew up believing was who he really was. The name that I thought was mine.

Yeah, I had no idea growing up. We just accept the world that were given as kids. We don't question, we don't start to question, so we're a bit older. So as a girl, a young girl when I you know, I was born in California, which is where dad got in trouble and we went on the run when I was eighteen months old, so I was very young. So my first memories were in houses in Portugal and then France and then the UK, and then my parents separated when I was four, so all I had ever known was kind of those early years, having a sitinerant existence, and then my dad being this exciting, fun guy that would take me on holidays in ski trips, and I understood there was something unusual about our family. We'd lived in by the time I was nine years old, thirteen houses in five countries, and I knew that that wasn't normal, but I quite enjoyed the ways in which it wasn't normal. I would tell people and I could see that they found it odd, and I liked that curiosity, that thing that made me different. I never really questioned the excuses that my parents gave me for why our childhood did be in that way. I really had no idea until two agents from Scotland Yard turned up when I was nine years old. On our doorstep in our house that we lived in with mom now in Bradford and Even and they turned up one day looking for Dad, and Mom didn't tell us straight away. She sent us out to go to a neighbor's house, and we ended up staying the night at the neighbor's house. And I remember my sister and I thinking that that was odd, but not really being able to think about why it might be odd. Certainly we didn't suspect what was actually happening, which is what they brought my mum in for questioning. They were looking for Dad, and that was when it all started up again. He had us essentially escaped their attention from California, gone into false identity. The identity that I grew up believing was who he really was. The name that I thought was mine.

What name was that, Tyler Kine, Tyler Kaine.

What name was that, Tyler Kine, Tyler Kaine.

You thought your name was Tyler Kane, So you thought your dad's name was Kine.

You thought your name was Tyler Kane, So you thought your dad's name was Kine.

Yes, I didn't know my real name or his real name until after that point. So when I was nine and this got into her turned up on the doorstep a week or so later, her mom took us aside and told us that Dad had committed a crime when we were young, and he was in trouble with the law and the police were looking for him, and he had gone into hiding. That this had been going on for our whole lives, and the crime he committed it was back in California, which is where we were born, and that's why we had left and told us that our names weren't our own. But we're living under so a total you know, it's just like everything you've believed to be true subtenly changes and this person that you you know dad to me. Me and Dad were always incredibly close. He was a very loving dad. He was always very hands on. He was always looking for fun games to make up with us or ways to like, ways to engage with us. He was very engaged in fun Dad, And this idea that he had the secret that he had kept from me was very hurtful. And I think at that age I was stony nine, so it didn't fully make sense the way things don't you're that young. The hardest thing was that he had left and we didn't know where he was and we didn't know when we would get to see him again. And I think that was what was most hurtful in those early years.

Yes, I didn't know my real name or his real name until after that point. So when I was nine and this got into her turned up on the doorstep a week or so later, her mom took us aside and told us that Dad had committed a crime when we were young, and he was in trouble with the law and the police were looking for him, and he had gone into hiding. That this had been going on for our whole lives, and the crime he committed it was back in California, which is where we were born, and that's why we had left and told us that our names weren't our own. But we're living under so a total you know, it's just like everything you've believed to be true subtenly changes and this person that you you know dad to me. Me and Dad were always incredibly close. He was a very loving dad. He was always very hands on. He was always looking for fun games to make up with us or ways to like, ways to engage with us. He was very engaged in fun Dad, And this idea that he had the secret that he had kept from me was very hurtful. And I think at that age I was stony nine, so it didn't fully make sense the way things don't you're that young. The hardest thing was that he had left and we didn't know where he was and we didn't know when we would get to see him again. And I think that was what was most hurtful in those early years.

After this shortbreak, Tyler tells me how the family dealt with the fallout of the truth coming out, and how to be honest when the house is being bugged.

After this shortbreak, Tyler tells me how the family dealt with the fallout of the truth coming out, and how to be honest when the house is being bugged.

Don't go anywhere?

Don't go anywhere?

You know?

You know?

The conversation with your mum, which so I mean, can you imagine having to have a conversation with your two daughters that encompasses so much, actually destroys so much of the mythology of their childhood and their father, and also sets the scene for how you're going to have to proceed into this new life. You don't know what that's going to be. Where did that conversation take place? Where were you? Where were you and your sister? Were you in your bedroom? Were you did she say? I've got something to.

The conversation with your mum, which so I mean, can you imagine having to have a conversation with your two daughters that encompasses so much, actually destroys so much of the mythology of their childhood and their father, and also sets the scene for how you're going to have to proceed into this new life. You don't know what that's going to be. Where did that conversation take place? Where were you? Where were you and your sister? Were you in your bedroom? Were you did she say? I've got something to.

Tell you girls? How does how does a how does a woman do that?

Tell you girls? How does how does a how does a woman do that?

I'm sure it was a conversation she had hoped she would never need to have with us. We were late. I woke up that morning and I noticed we were late for school. Was after the time in the morning I would normally get us up. So I went downstairs and was confused. Mamy handn't awakeness woken us up, and she gathered us all together. I was actually just me and my sister. My brother was away at boarding school, and she told us that she had something to tell us, and we were in her bed. And amazingly, this bed had traveled with them from California. I was one of these items that she had just kept in the ship over to Europe. And she was very fond of us that this is incredibly cumbersome. I became kind of symbolic of home for all of us. I was born in that bed, and so she gathered us here and that was where the conversation happened. And she was very careful in her telling. I imagine she thought very carefully about what she wanted to say to us and how she wanted to phrase it, and also what she didn't want to say to us. And I know now that one of the reasons she was being so careful was to make sure it was as unscary as it possibly could be for her girls, but also because she suspected the house was bugged, and so whatever she was saying, she in all probability. Scotland George were listening. So when she was talking about what she knew about where Dad was or the nature of his crimes. She was quite vague, and then I think we took the rest of the day off school and tried to make sense of this new world. And the strangest thing about it was that we had to keep on pretending like everything was the same as of course. And one of the biggest things she impressed upon us was the importance that we talked to no one about it. We weren't to tell our friends, We couldn't talk to anybody, and she was always scared that they might try and approach us and pretend to be parents or friends, parents, or you know, something like this, and try and talk to us about and find out from us where Dad might be. And she was very protective of wanting to make sure that never happened. So yeah, she talk to anyone about about it, and not to be careful somebody approached us to talk to us in public.

I'm sure it was a conversation she had hoped she would never need to have with us. We were late. I woke up that morning and I noticed we were late for school. Was after the time in the morning I would normally get us up. So I went downstairs and was confused. Mamy handn't awakeness woken us up, and she gathered us all together. I was actually just me and my sister. My brother was away at boarding school, and she told us that she had something to tell us, and we were in her bed. And amazingly, this bed had traveled with them from California. I was one of these items that she had just kept in the ship over to Europe. And she was very fond of us that this is incredibly cumbersome. I became kind of symbolic of home for all of us. I was born in that bed, and so she gathered us here and that was where the conversation happened. And she was very careful in her telling. I imagine she thought very carefully about what she wanted to say to us and how she wanted to phrase it, and also what she didn't want to say to us. And I know now that one of the reasons she was being so careful was to make sure it was as unscary as it possibly could be for her girls, but also because she suspected the house was bugged, and so whatever she was saying, she in all probability. Scotland George were listening. So when she was talking about what she knew about where Dad was or the nature of his crimes. She was quite vague, and then I think we took the rest of the day off school and tried to make sense of this new world. And the strangest thing about it was that we had to keep on pretending like everything was the same as of course. And one of the biggest things she impressed upon us was the importance that we talked to no one about it. We weren't to tell our friends, We couldn't talk to anybody, and she was always scared that they might try and approach us and pretend to be parents or friends, parents, or you know, something like this, and try and talk to us about and find out from us where Dad might be. And she was very protective of wanting to make sure that never happened. So yeah, she talk to anyone about about it, and not to be careful somebody approached us to talk to us in public.

Looking at it through the prism of a nine year old girl, you would have had like a girlfriend at school that you were quite close to, and what you would normally do was be like, guess what I found today that my name's not Tyler Kan I've had it like you would. You knew somehow not to do any of that, and you knew that from really through your whole life, when you were moving from country to country. So you're nine and you're relatively settled at this point in the UK with your mom who separated from your father. But there's still they still seem to be quite harmonious more or less.

Looking at it through the prism of a nine year old girl, you would have had like a girlfriend at school that you were quite close to, and what you would normally do was be like, guess what I found today that my name's not Tyler Kan I've had it like you would. You knew somehow not to do any of that, and you knew that from really through your whole life, when you were moving from country to country. So you're nine and you're relatively settled at this point in the UK with your mom who separated from your father. But there's still they still seem to be quite harmonious more or less.

I think mum, I know now that she was very angry with him. Sure everything happened, and one of the reasons we'd moved to where we were living then outside of London and Bradford even was because she was trying to put some distance between them. She felt like he had and he had ruined their lives. That everything they had loved, their home, the marriage, their safety had all been jeopardized by his decision to keep smuggling drugs. And I didn't know at the time why she found it so hard to spend time with him. They had an arrangement though she always knew that we should spend you know, she really believed that it was important for us to have a relationship with him, and she always made sure that we did our every other weekend staying at our dad's house, and that we would have some holidays with him. So they shared custody, and that was amicaboraf But no, they weren't friends, and she spent as little time as she could with him or talking to him.

I think mum, I know now that she was very angry with him. Sure everything happened, and one of the reasons we'd moved to where we were living then outside of London and Bradford even was because she was trying to put some distance between them. She felt like he had and he had ruined their lives. That everything they had loved, their home, the marriage, their safety had all been jeopardized by his decision to keep smuggling drugs. And I didn't know at the time why she found it so hard to spend time with him. They had an arrangement though she always knew that we should spend you know, she really believed that it was important for us to have a relationship with him, and she always made sure that we did our every other weekend staying at our dad's house, and that we would have some holidays with him. So they shared custody, and that was amicaboraf But no, they weren't friends, and she spent as little time as she could with him or talking to him.

So you'd had this idyllic obviously through your baby eyes, the Yellow House. That was a very beautiful and significant place for you. Where did you go after that?

So you'd had this idyllic obviously through your baby eyes, the Yellow House. That was a very beautiful and significant place for you. Where did you go after that?

I was born in the Yellow House in California, and I had just shived to years there and then we moved. We were moving quite quickly. At first. We went first to Rome and stayed there briefly with another fugitive family. After that we went to a house in the coast of Italy. I believe it's hard to remember the order now. When I was writing the book, I had a list all the houses and the dates so I could keep it straight. And then I think we after that we moved to the place where we settled, so we went to a flat and Chelsea for a minute. After Chelsea, we took a train across France and Spain down to Portugal, which is where we settled for a year or nearly a year, and we were quite happy there. And then Dad realized that he could be extradited from Portugal. No longer felt secure and so decided that we had to leave again, which was very hard for Mom because she felt she found good schools, we found friends, she liked the house.

I was born in the Yellow House in California, and I had just shived to years there and then we moved. We were moving quite quickly. At first. We went first to Rome and stayed there briefly with another fugitive family. After that we went to a house in the coast of Italy. I believe it's hard to remember the order now. When I was writing the book, I had a list all the houses and the dates so I could keep it straight. And then I think we after that we moved to the place where we settled, so we went to a flat and Chelsea for a minute. After Chelsea, we took a train across France and Spain down to Portugal, which is where we settled for a year or nearly a year, and we were quite happy there. And then Dad realized that he could be extradited from Portugal. No longer felt secure and so decided that we had to leave again, which was very hard for Mom because she felt she found good schools, we found friends, she liked the house.

She just shaped the bead.

She just shaped the bead.

All the things that just arrived at the time, curring. You know, they bring they you know, they shipped the things over. They'd only just got there. I actually don't know if they even got to the house. I think they took so long that they got rerouted to the next house. And then we went to the south of France, to Mujan, where Mum was started to become very unhappy with what was being asked of her. She had agreed to go on the run, thinking it sounded preferable to being a mother of three with an incarcerated husband for an unknown amount of time, and they mistakenly believed that they could make a deal with a bit of time and distance and for Dad to serve less time than he would have been facing, which all seems very wishful thinking, but I guess at the time that's what they believed. Over the years, it became clear that this wasn't going to happen, and that their life of living under false identities not really even able to have real friends because you have this huge secret living amongst a community of other fugitives where everyone really Mum would get so frustrated, they'd all talk up being fugitives all the time. She wanted a real life and friends and family and a home and security, and not to be looking in the revery mirror wondering when they're going to turn up again. And eventually that became all too much for her to ask of her and that's when their marriage broke down and she left with us.

All the things that just arrived at the time, curring. You know, they bring they you know, they shipped the things over. They'd only just got there. I actually don't know if they even got to the house. I think they took so long that they got rerouted to the next house. And then we went to the south of France, to Mujan, where Mum was started to become very unhappy with what was being asked of her. She had agreed to go on the run, thinking it sounded preferable to being a mother of three with an incarcerated husband for an unknown amount of time, and they mistakenly believed that they could make a deal with a bit of time and distance and for Dad to serve less time than he would have been facing, which all seems very wishful thinking, but I guess at the time that's what they believed. Over the years, it became clear that this wasn't going to happen, and that their life of living under false identities not really even able to have real friends because you have this huge secret living amongst a community of other fugitives where everyone really Mum would get so frustrated, they'd all talk up being fugitives all the time. She wanted a real life and friends and family and a home and security, and not to be looking in the revery mirror wondering when they're going to turn up again. And eventually that became all too much for her to ask of her and that's when their marriage broke down and she left with us.

It's interesting because being an expat anyway, your life is kind of shrink wrapped. But if you then narrowed that world down even more to the fact that you've only got to hang out with other fugitives and criminals who are on the run, that makes that a really tiny, intense world.

It's interesting because being an expat anyway, your life is kind of shrink wrapped. But if you then narrowed that world down even more to the fact that you've only got to hang out with other fugitives and criminals who are on the run, that makes that a really tiny, intense world.

Yes, and people who were all experiencing stress. It's a very anxiety inducing existence to be waiting to get caught and also really inconvenient. You know that, how do you get kids in school when you're trying to live under name? What do you do about medical stuff? Like? You know, your your every interaction comes with this extra burden.

Yes, and people who were all experiencing stress. It's a very anxiety inducing existence to be waiting to get caught and also really inconvenient. You know that, how do you get kids in school when you're trying to live under name? What do you do about medical stuff? Like? You know, your your every interaction comes with this extra burden.

So you would always go to school.

So you would always go to school.

We always went to school. I got the best deal of my siblings because I was the youngest. So by the time I was being schooled, Mum had left Dad and we were living in England, and some that took some of the pressure off. We kept our fake I mean I always kept my first name was always the same, but we used fake surname because that's what we've been envolved in school in and I so I sat of school in England. My siblings were schooled in Portugal in France, so their schooling suffered a little bit from it. But no, we were always in school and a Mum always made sure education was really important. She did a really good job of making our childhood as normal as possible under the circum stances. It's very unnormal, but very hard to make it so it felt, and I guess that's why it was possible for me to not have an idea until Scotland Yard turned up again that there was anything wrong. The worst thing I thought that it ever happened was that they broke up, and I was heartbroken that they'd separated.

We always went to school. I got the best deal of my siblings because I was the youngest. So by the time I was being schooled, Mum had left Dad and we were living in England, and some that took some of the pressure off. We kept our fake I mean I always kept my first name was always the same, but we used fake surname because that's what we've been envolved in school in and I so I sat of school in England. My siblings were schooled in Portugal in France, so their schooling suffered a little bit from it. But no, we were always in school and a Mum always made sure education was really important. She did a really good job of making our childhood as normal as possible under the circum stances. It's very unnormal, but very hard to make it so it felt, and I guess that's why it was possible for me to not have an idea until Scotland Yard turned up again that there was anything wrong. The worst thing I thought that it ever happened was that they broke up, and I was heartbroken that they'd separated.

What were the other fugitives? What were the what were they fuging from?

What were the other fugitives? What were the what were they fuging from?

Almost all of them were other drug smuggling friends and a lot of them had worked with Dad in his organization. You know, they did some big smuggles. There was a lot of people down the train of command, and some were other fugitives that they had been introduced to. So when you know, you've got to think this is pre Internet, not that you'd google it or anything. Getting the information was quite difficult on how to do this. So there was this network exchanging information about how you go about doing all the things you had to do. You'd get your how to go about getting a good fake identity, which borders were good to cross, which were no goes. Like they exchanged information which may do quite close to these people. Some were people that Dad knew from before, some were people that he'd been introduced to amongst this network. You always used your fake names so people wouldn't know your real identity, so if they were to get caught, they couldn't give you up, though that was always a risk. Some of these families had kids too, so we, unbeknownst to us at the time, would hang out with these other fugitive kids and some of them might have since been in touch with and we've talked about all the different lives that we told or how we found out or what happened or how parents were eventually caught. And it's a very unique set of hardships and absurdities of being a fugitive kid. So I find that I can now spot them when someone is telling me about and I hear the types of lies they're telling them, Like, I don't suppose you were on the run? Were you?

Almost all of them were other drug smuggling friends and a lot of them had worked with Dad in his organization. You know, they did some big smuggles. There was a lot of people down the train of command, and some were other fugitives that they had been introduced to. So when you know, you've got to think this is pre Internet, not that you'd google it or anything. Getting the information was quite difficult on how to do this. So there was this network exchanging information about how you go about doing all the things you had to do. You'd get your how to go about getting a good fake identity, which borders were good to cross, which were no goes. Like they exchanged information which may do quite close to these people. Some were people that Dad knew from before, some were people that he'd been introduced to amongst this network. You always used your fake names so people wouldn't know your real identity, so if they were to get caught, they couldn't give you up, though that was always a risk. Some of these families had kids too, so we, unbeknownst to us at the time, would hang out with these other fugitive kids and some of them might have since been in touch with and we've talked about all the different lives that we told or how we found out or what happened or how parents were eventually caught. And it's a very unique set of hardships and absurdities of being a fugitive kid. So I find that I can now spot them when someone is telling me about and I hear the types of lies they're telling them, Like, I don't suppose you were on the run? Were you?

Why? How often does that happen?

Why? How often does that happen?

Three times?

Three times?

Wow?

Wow?

Yeah, in just a moment, Tyler shares just how to maintain a relationship with someone on the run.

Yeah, in just a moment, Tyler shares just how to maintain a relationship with someone on the run.

Will be right back.

Will be right back.

So your dad's plan was I mean, there was a method to his madness.

So your dad's plan was I mean, there was a method to his madness.

I guess you could say was.

I guess you could say was.

That he thought that he could go to Portugal and resettle the family because there was not an extradition treaty there, but then found out that it excluded drug crimes.

That he thought that he could go to Portugal and resettle the family because there was not an extradition treaty there, but then found out that it excluded drug crimes.

Yep, that's right.

Yep, that's right.

So that blew the whole thing up. And was it at that point your mum went.

So that blew the whole thing up. And was it at that point your mum went.

I'm done.

I'm done.

I need a life that's not on the run. But your father obviously still had to continue to be on the run. So how would you see him given that it was so important for your mum, for you kids to maintain your relationship with him, how did they work that out?

I need a life that's not on the run. But your father obviously still had to continue to be on the run. So how would you see him given that it was so important for your mum, for you kids to maintain your relationship with him, how did they work that out?

And where would you meet your dad?

And where would you meet your dad?

So there was a period of time. So they separated when I was four, and there's a period of time until I was nine where Dad had really successfully evaded the authorities. He was living under his feet name Martin Kin, and he was he'd got a speeding ticket and went to court to argue his ticket. He had brank accounts, He had a fully fledged paper trail that connected him to this man, his fake identity. So at that point when they separated, he considered turning himself in because he had lost the thing that he most wanted to save. I mean, all along he realized that he jeopardized what made him happiest, such as his family, and once the marriage broke down and he was only seeing us every other weekend, he was terribly lonely, living under a fake identity in London at that point because mum had wanted to go back to England. My mum's English and her family were in the UK and she wanted to reconnect with them, and so he found himself living this very isolated existence. At that point, he thought about turning himself in, but they weren't looking for him. Anymore. It had been you know, five years at that point, more or less since the start of the investigation. They'd got a number of other people he had disappeared, so we decided to see how things win. And for a couple of years he was living a normal ish life. He had a couple of restaurants on the Kensington Road in London and managed them or as an in them. He had a few, you know, side businesses, and things were kind of normal, and that probably just saw him like you had any other dad, you know, of a separated you know, every other weekend we'd see him, and it was it was perfectly normal. When they started looking for him again. What had happened during this time was he had reconnected with a pair of drug smuggling brothers that he had worked with on some of the early drug deals, early smuggles he had done. They weren't involved in the last deal that he did, the one that went wrong and led to his eventual led to the discovery of his crimes, and so he reconnected with them and they had kept smuggling, and they had accrued a huge amount of money and didn't know what to do with it. So they hired him for his financial expertise, getting back to his Wall Street roots he had, and this is such a dad thing. He didn't really see it as a risk because he was just investing their money. For them, he was laundering money, obviously, but for him, it was going back to his Wall Street roots and looking for good investments and ways to build their portfolio. So he was buying fine art and he was going and testing vintage Ferraris, and he was having quite a wonderful time and his life had become quite fun and interesting and glamorous again. He had a girlfriend and of course we know what's going to happen here, Like they got in trouble, and when they got in trouble, they tried hard to protect him and could have given up his name a lot sooner, but they didn't, and eventually they were put in a corner where they were accused of withholding information and their deals with the authorities would have fallen apart if they didn't give up his name, and they got warning to him so he would know, and that's when he disappeared again, knowing that they had his new identity, Martin Kin. And that's when Scotland Yard turned up on our doorstep. And in the years that followed, that's when our lives as kids became very strange.

So there was a period of time. So they separated when I was four, and there's a period of time until I was nine where Dad had really successfully evaded the authorities. He was living under his feet name Martin Kin, and he was he'd got a speeding ticket and went to court to argue his ticket. He had brank accounts, He had a fully fledged paper trail that connected him to this man, his fake identity. So at that point when they separated, he considered turning himself in because he had lost the thing that he most wanted to save. I mean, all along he realized that he jeopardized what made him happiest, such as his family, and once the marriage broke down and he was only seeing us every other weekend, he was terribly lonely, living under a fake identity in London at that point because mum had wanted to go back to England. My mum's English and her family were in the UK and she wanted to reconnect with them, and so he found himself living this very isolated existence. At that point, he thought about turning himself in, but they weren't looking for him. Anymore. It had been you know, five years at that point, more or less since the start of the investigation. They'd got a number of other people he had disappeared, so we decided to see how things win. And for a couple of years he was living a normal ish life. He had a couple of restaurants on the Kensington Road in London and managed them or as an in them. He had a few, you know, side businesses, and things were kind of normal, and that probably just saw him like you had any other dad, you know, of a separated you know, every other weekend we'd see him, and it was it was perfectly normal. When they started looking for him again. What had happened during this time was he had reconnected with a pair of drug smuggling brothers that he had worked with on some of the early drug deals, early smuggles he had done. They weren't involved in the last deal that he did, the one that went wrong and led to his eventual led to the discovery of his crimes, and so he reconnected with them and they had kept smuggling, and they had accrued a huge amount of money and didn't know what to do with it. So they hired him for his financial expertise, getting back to his Wall Street roots he had, and this is such a dad thing. He didn't really see it as a risk because he was just investing their money. For them, he was laundering money, obviously, but for him, it was going back to his Wall Street roots and looking for good investments and ways to build their portfolio. So he was buying fine art and he was going and testing vintage Ferraris, and he was having quite a wonderful time and his life had become quite fun and interesting and glamorous again. He had a girlfriend and of course we know what's going to happen here, Like they got in trouble, and when they got in trouble, they tried hard to protect him and could have given up his name a lot sooner, but they didn't, and eventually they were put in a corner where they were accused of withholding information and their deals with the authorities would have fallen apart if they didn't give up his name, and they got warning to him so he would know, and that's when he disappeared again, knowing that they had his new identity, Martin Kin. And that's when Scotland Yard turned up on our doorstep. And in the years that followed, that's when our lives as kids became very strange.

When you say Scotland yard turned up. Were they following you as children? Would they follow you to school?

When you say Scotland yard turned up. Were they following you as children? Would they follow you to school?

So when they turned back up first they just were asking mum where he was. They just missed him by twenty four hours. They turned up his house, raided his house, and he wasn't there, and they were obviously pretty pissed that this had happened, and they knew her mom was Mum was living under her real name by that point, and turned up looking for him and see if she had any information. After that point, we started to notice them. We sort of noticed them waiting sort of in a car across the road from outside our school. We would notice that they were following us home. We would sense that we suspected they were listening to our phone calls that we didn't know. Mom feared they bugged the car as well, So we were careful about the conversations we had in the car. We were careful about the conversations we had in the house. We didn't really talk about it a great deal because of this sort of war of are they listening, are they around the corner. When we did need to talk about it, we'd take the dog for a long walk and in the middle of a field where you can really check out if anyone's surveying you, that's where we'd have these conversations. Mum had been under when they first started the investigation back in California. Dad had taught her how to spot tale, how to tell if your phone was bugged, so she had some skills at this stage that she could use. So we were aware as kids that we were being followed, and it was very weird to have like childhood conversations with boyfriends, you know, your first like your kid, and you spend hours on the phone with your friends, or you have those boys called the house because they're still house them and all those conversations, and in the back of my head, I'd be like, are they listening to this? Real they were, and we had to keep it very secret. And then at some point Dad managed to get word to us to meet to range Away to see and that first we took, our first trip was terrifying for everybody because none of us knew if we were going to get caught. I still don't know entirely why Mom agreed to do it.

So when they turned back up first they just were asking mum where he was. They just missed him by twenty four hours. They turned up his house, raided his house, and he wasn't there, and they were obviously pretty pissed that this had happened, and they knew her mom was Mum was living under her real name by that point, and turned up looking for him and see if she had any information. After that point, we started to notice them. We sort of noticed them waiting sort of in a car across the road from outside our school. We would notice that they were following us home. We would sense that we suspected they were listening to our phone calls that we didn't know. Mom feared they bugged the car as well, So we were careful about the conversations we had in the car. We were careful about the conversations we had in the house. We didn't really talk about it a great deal because of this sort of war of are they listening, are they around the corner. When we did need to talk about it, we'd take the dog for a long walk and in the middle of a field where you can really check out if anyone's surveying you, that's where we'd have these conversations. Mum had been under when they first started the investigation back in California. Dad had taught her how to spot tale, how to tell if your phone was bugged, so she had some skills at this stage that she could use. So we were aware as kids that we were being followed, and it was very weird to have like childhood conversations with boyfriends, you know, your first like your kid, and you spend hours on the phone with your friends, or you have those boys called the house because they're still house them and all those conversations, and in the back of my head, I'd be like, are they listening to this? Real they were, and we had to keep it very secret. And then at some point Dad managed to get word to us to meet to range Away to see and that first we took, our first trip was terrifying for everybody because none of us knew if we were going to get caught. I still don't know entirely why Mom agreed to do it.

Where was it to the first treat.

Where was it to the first treat.

We didn't know it was happening until we met up with the guy who was going to take us so, a friend of my dad's who wasn't ever in the drug business so he wouldn't be into surveillance, someone that the authorities wouldn't know about, met up with us in a pub in the countryside, and Mom handed us over to him. We knew him, we'd had breakfast with him, you know, he wasn't a stranger to us, and he drove us to Paris where Dad was waiting. We only knew what was happening at the point where we met up with him in the pub and Mom explained to us, and I was thrilled. I was going to go see my dad. I missed him terribly. It'd been month at that point that we'd been separated. And we took the ferry across to Paris and then drove the rest of the way, and it was really exciting, and there was still a way that Dad had a making these trips feel kind of normal. I think my sister found them harder because she was more aware of the risks and also aware of how hard Mom found it. To say goodbye to us, and how scared Mom was that at any point if he were to be arrested while we were there, what would happen to us. But once that first trip was successful and they didn't follow us, then there were more. Then we started this time where we would me and Katie after school would go to payphones where we'd had arranged a series of phone calls with Dad at times and different addresses at different payphones, where he would call the payphone when we got there and we'd be able to chat to him, And it was always different schedules, so they weren't following us everywhere we went. They mainly followed mom, and we'd occasionally notice that they were there, and we'd be kids in phone booths. So we spent time having these candesetine phone calls with their dad from phone booths all over the city, and then we'd have trips out to see him, taken by our big brother or by a friend of my dad's, and never knowing if this was the one that they were going to intercept us, or if this was the one where they figured out what was happening and followed us. And once there was a near miss and we had to pack up in the middle of the night and move from where Dad was staying. But on the whole it felt like we were getting away with it, and Dad again felt like he was getting away with it. Then that sense of hubris was growing again.

We didn't know it was happening until we met up with the guy who was going to take us so, a friend of my dad's who wasn't ever in the drug business so he wouldn't be into surveillance, someone that the authorities wouldn't know about, met up with us in a pub in the countryside, and Mom handed us over to him. We knew him, we'd had breakfast with him, you know, he wasn't a stranger to us, and he drove us to Paris where Dad was waiting. We only knew what was happening at the point where we met up with him in the pub and Mom explained to us, and I was thrilled. I was going to go see my dad. I missed him terribly. It'd been month at that point that we'd been separated. And we took the ferry across to Paris and then drove the rest of the way, and it was really exciting, and there was still a way that Dad had a making these trips feel kind of normal. I think my sister found them harder because she was more aware of the risks and also aware of how hard Mom found it. To say goodbye to us, and how scared Mom was that at any point if he were to be arrested while we were there, what would happen to us. But once that first trip was successful and they didn't follow us, then there were more. Then we started this time where we would me and Katie after school would go to payphones where we'd had arranged a series of phone calls with Dad at times and different addresses at different payphones, where he would call the payphone when we got there and we'd be able to chat to him, And it was always different schedules, so they weren't following us everywhere we went. They mainly followed mom, and we'd occasionally notice that they were there, and we'd be kids in phone booths. So we spent time having these candesetine phone calls with their dad from phone booths all over the city, and then we'd have trips out to see him, taken by our big brother or by a friend of my dad's, and never knowing if this was the one that they were going to intercept us, or if this was the one where they figured out what was happening and followed us. And once there was a near miss and we had to pack up in the middle of the night and move from where Dad was staying. But on the whole it felt like we were getting away with it, and Dad again felt like he was getting away with it. Then that sense of hubris was growing again.

And at what point, So it was when you were twelve they stopped getting away with it.

And at what point, So it was when you were twelve they stopped getting away with it.

Yeah, well, I told are your birthday?

Yeah, well, I told are your birthday?

Yeah, So we'd have this strange period of time. So it'd been you know, two and a half years of Dad moving quite quickly. We didn't often visit him in the same place twice. He was different locations around France mainly, and we'd go see him and he'd be back with his community fugitives that we'd lived with and your kids. So some of those fugitive kids again we were hanging out with, none of us knowing of what was going on, and we never talked to them about it. I think there was one time when some other fugitive kids got told the secret that all of our parents were drug smigelers and that we were on the run from the FBI, and we were asked to like help them work through it, and both me and my sister were like, well, no one was there to help us, and we don't know what to say, and the only rule we have is don't tell anyone. So we had this strange period of time. And then Dad was looking for a business opportunity to make money again and something that wasn't going to get him in trouble, and that's hard when you're on the run and living under fake identity. And he had the opportunity to go manage a hotel on a Caribbean island and Saint Lucia. The guy had no idea, obviously about his background, so he went out there and managed his hotel and eventually convinced mom. Dad is very persuasive. He's very confident and calm, and it makes it hard when you try and tell him to be worried about something, to feel like you're not that you're worries are justified because he brushes them away. So somehow it convince Mom that we were going to fly out and visit him in Saint Lucia for my twelfth birthday. This time, i'd been another long gap between seeing him, and he was really excited. He wanted to show us this really beautiful place, this island. He wanted to show us him working in a job, as a real job with an office. He was proud and meet all the people he'd met out there. He was out there with his girlfriend.

Yeah, So we'd have this strange period of time. So it'd been you know, two and a half years of Dad moving quite quickly. We didn't often visit him in the same place twice. He was different locations around France mainly, and we'd go see him and he'd be back with his community fugitives that we'd lived with and your kids. So some of those fugitive kids again we were hanging out with, none of us knowing of what was going on, and we never talked to them about it. I think there was one time when some other fugitive kids got told the secret that all of our parents were drug smigelers and that we were on the run from the FBI, and we were asked to like help them work through it, and both me and my sister were like, well, no one was there to help us, and we don't know what to say, and the only rule we have is don't tell anyone. So we had this strange period of time. And then Dad was looking for a business opportunity to make money again and something that wasn't going to get him in trouble, and that's hard when you're on the run and living under fake identity. And he had the opportunity to go manage a hotel on a Caribbean island and Saint Lucia. The guy had no idea, obviously about his background, so he went out there and managed his hotel and eventually convinced mom. Dad is very persuasive. He's very confident and calm, and it makes it hard when you try and tell him to be worried about something, to feel like you're not that you're worries are justified because he brushes them away. So somehow it convince Mom that we were going to fly out and visit him in Saint Lucia for my twelfth birthday. This time, i'd been another long gap between seeing him, and he was really excited. He wanted to show us this really beautiful place, this island. He wanted to show us him working in a job, as a real job with an office. He was proud and meet all the people he'd met out there. He was out there with his girlfriend.

Still the same girlfriend.

Still the same girlfriend.

Yeah, the same girlfriend through it all. Wow. And we had two really beautiful weeks there learning to scuba dive and hanging out being beach kids. And it was on one of the final nights when we were getting ready for going out for dinner for my twelfth birthday. It arranged a special dinner in the main capital city there. We're going to go eat lobsters, and we were excited and we were getting ready, me and my sister for the evening and we came down to meet Dad in the office and we could just straight away we saw the look on his face and we knew immediately what happened. We could tell he was on the phone, and we could tell it was Mom, and we knew that this was it. There was just a gravitas to him and a heartbreak. All through those years of being on the run, he was always looking for a solution, for a way out, and he's an optimist and he kept thinking that that there was a way And I think when they found out he was in Saint Lucia. I think that it suddenly dawned on him that there wasn't going to be a way out. They had turned up at mum's house. They had found our flight details and they were on the way to the island. So there was a ticking time clock there and dinner was canceled.

Yeah, the same girlfriend through it all. Wow. And we had two really beautiful weeks there learning to scuba dive and hanging out being beach kids. And it was on one of the final nights when we were getting ready for going out for dinner for my twelfth birthday. It arranged a special dinner in the main capital city there. We're going to go eat lobsters, and we were excited and we were getting ready, me and my sister for the evening and we came down to meet Dad in the office and we could just straight away we saw the look on his face and we knew immediately what happened. We could tell he was on the phone, and we could tell it was Mom, and we knew that this was it. There was just a gravitas to him and a heartbreak. All through those years of being on the run, he was always looking for a solution, for a way out, and he's an optimist and he kept thinking that that there was a way And I think when they found out he was in Saint Lucia. I think that it suddenly dawned on him that there wasn't going to be a way out. They had turned up at mum's house. They had found our flight details and they were on the way to the island. So there was a ticking time clock there and dinner was canceled.

That apology was canceled. Oh, dinner was canceled.

That apology was canceled. Oh, dinner was canceled.

I was screwing up my birthday, which is one of those things. You know, it's always heartbreaking when you're a kid, And I think this is what so much of it comes down to, is when you see your parents's mistake making people, and it dawns and you really for the first time that they're just like everybody else and that they've screwed up. And that night Dad was trying to figure out flights as soon as he could get us off the island before he worried about his own situation. He needs to make sure we were on our way home. Had made him swear to get us home safely. And I remember going into his room and his house where he was living there, and we'd we were in a little cabana next door, and I went into his room and he was crying and it's just that, you know, senor your parents cry when your kid is always discombobulating. It's like the world is as as the world isn't what you imagined it to be. And seeing his tears was really hard, and I also was angry at the same time and frightened. So that night we slept and we woke up early before dawn and left to go to the airport, and we dropped Dad off on the way, kind of in the middle of this road and said Doug goodbyes, and without knowing if we would see him again, or when we'd see him again, or what he was going to do, but knowing that this was really the end of the whole journey. And I don't remember. Weirdly, I don't remember the flight home at all, like, not one thing about it. My sister has different details. We were sunburned apparently, and someone gave us something for a sunburn, but I don't remember any of it at all until we got back home and Mom was waiting for us.