You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Mama Miya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

Mama Miya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

Hi Kateline Brooke here dropping into your feed with a very special gift. And I say gift because what you're about to hear will fill you with all of the warm feelings and it should make you want to call your best friend. This is an episode of Holly Wainwright's podcast Mid her guests Oh My Goodness, Amanda Keller A Piece of Gold, and her beautiful best friend Anita McGregor. You'll know Amanda from her many decades as an Australian television and radio presenter, comedian, writer, actor and journalist, and you'll likely be meeting her best friend, Anita, a forensic psychologist, for the first time, but you'll very quickly understand why these two have been inseparable since they first met seventeen years ago. This conversation goes everywhere from the things your friends can hold your hand true and what they can't, and when or eve you should ever offer your best friend feedback. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Mead.

Hi Kateline Brooke here dropping into your feed with a very special gift. And I say gift because what you're about to hear will fill you with all of the warm feelings and it should make you want to call your best friend. This is an episode of Holly Wainwright's podcast Mid her guests Oh My Goodness, Amanda Keller A Piece of Gold, and her beautiful best friend Anita McGregor. You'll know Amanda from her many decades as an Australian television and radio presenter, comedian, writer, actor and journalist, and you'll likely be meeting her best friend, Anita, a forensic psychologist, for the first time, but you'll very quickly understand why these two have been inseparable since they first met seventeen years ago. This conversation goes everywhere from the things your friends can hold your hand true and what they can't, and when or eve you should ever offer your best friend feedback. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Mead.

I met my soulmate when I was eleven. The way I remember it is that our respective mothers banned us from going to some party or other, and instead it was suggested that we have a sleepover together. We were furious. Forty two years later and any time I get to have a sleepover with my best and oldest friend Lindsey, I will take it. It doesn't happen often because we live on opposite sides of the world. When I was twenty three, Lindsay was at London's Heathrow Airport to wave me off as I traveled to Australia for a year long traveling adventure. We cried and we cried, and that year has turned into thirty thirty years. And yet if we get the opportunity to spend even a few days together anywhere in the world, those days are worth years, and we still cry at airports. I also, as a fifty three year old woman, still have regular sleepovers with another great maid of mine, Penny, my treasure weekends away with a pick and Mix bag of my closest friends. I have mates I message daily and beloved ones I don't speak to for months. I have new friends I already can't imagine life without, and friends I share professional passions with to whom I owe a great deal. I'm bragging now and you know it. Because friendship, if you're lucky enough to have it in your life, is the greatest privilege of all and the thing that makes an enormous difference to our happiness and our well being. And one of the profound joys of getting older is getting to write new pages into your friendship histories and mark birthdays. The losses and the struggles, and the splits and the bad days all scroll out across pages that bound together tell us everything about ourselves and each other. I also have ex friends. You probably do too, relationships that ended mid sentence, leaving unsatisfying blank pages, and I've mourned them like old lovers, and I've wrestled with how to heal rifts may be left too long to revive. Because friends are the loves of our lives, as the iconic, aspirational, sometimes toxic Carrie Bradshaw's Girl Gang told us back when we were young, and in the manner of loves of our lives, they run the gammer of being the best and worst of us. They lift you higher, and they break your fucking heart, and respect must be paid here's a raised, steaming tea mug. To the friend you can itch your hormone patch in front of, who will walk beside you in your stupid weighted vest, who will congratulate you for your teeny weeny tomato harvest and agree that your partner is a dickhead today and a hero tomorrow. Who sees you through your job, through your children, through what your body's doing today. Who knows your mum's not been well. Who knows when your next appointment is. Who knows when to ask if you're okay and when to shut the hell up. Who dropped the meme of your dreams in the group chat on a bad day, and will sing in the car with you at the top of your terrible voices when life feels right. The friends who know the backstory, who indulge your tantrums just enough. To the deep grown up friendships and the ones forged over silly shared enthusiasms. To the ones who live next door and the ones on the other side of the world, and the ones who aren't here anymore. Soul mats all, Hello, I'm Holly Wainwright, and I am mid midlife, mid family, mid midlife crisis Number eight. We've been away for a while, and now we're back. This is season four, a mid the show for gen X women who are anything but, and over the next eight episodes, I'm going to be talking to grown up women, some of whom you know, some you'll be meeting for the first time, who have great stories and spot on insights into the things that make a life. I always say we've got no time or tolerance for small talk by the time we get here, but that doesn't mean everything is heavy, quite the opposite. I know that right now, I'm searching for conversations that cheer me, that soothe me, that make me laugh, make me hopeful, distract me from the enormous and tiny challenges that we're all wading through every day in our real lives and out in the big scary world. Some of the conversations we've got for you here are about things like shamefree sex, and falling in love again after a big split, about reinvention after a massive career crash, about caring for our aging parents, and about hair and a lot more too. So I hope you I'm going to love season four. But today I'm having a conversation about something I've been dying to talk about with people I've been dying to talk to. I think you probably all know who Amanda Keller is. I'll tell you really quickly just in case, that she's an accomplished and experienced media everything. She's a TV host and an award winning rating topping breakfast radio legend. But I'm going to stop talking because what I've got Amanda to come in and tell us about was none of that, really, even though we obviously go there a little bit. I invited her and her best friend to come in and talk about friendship. The person sitting beside Amanda in this conversation is her equally accomplished and impressive best friend, Anita McGregor. The two make their own podcasts together, which you'll hear about obviously, but I predict that five minutes into this you'll be as obsessed with Anita as I am, and with their friendship. And now I really am going to stop talking, because the first thing I asked Amanda and Nita to do was to introduce each other through a best friend's eyes to you.

I met my soulmate when I was eleven. The way I remember it is that our respective mothers banned us from going to some party or other, and instead it was suggested that we have a sleepover together. We were furious. Forty two years later and any time I get to have a sleepover with my best and oldest friend Lindsey, I will take it. It doesn't happen often because we live on opposite sides of the world. When I was twenty three, Lindsay was at London's Heathrow Airport to wave me off as I traveled to Australia for a year long traveling adventure. We cried and we cried, and that year has turned into thirty thirty years. And yet if we get the opportunity to spend even a few days together anywhere in the world, those days are worth years, and we still cry at airports. I also, as a fifty three year old woman, still have regular sleepovers with another great maid of mine, Penny, my treasure weekends away with a pick and Mix bag of my closest friends. I have mates I message daily and beloved ones I don't speak to for months. I have new friends I already can't imagine life without, and friends I share professional passions with to whom I owe a great deal. I'm bragging now and you know it. Because friendship, if you're lucky enough to have it in your life, is the greatest privilege of all and the thing that makes an enormous difference to our happiness and our well being. And one of the profound joys of getting older is getting to write new pages into your friendship histories and mark birthdays. The losses and the struggles, and the splits and the bad days all scroll out across pages that bound together tell us everything about ourselves and each other. I also have ex friends. You probably do too, relationships that ended mid sentence, leaving unsatisfying blank pages, and I've mourned them like old lovers, and I've wrestled with how to heal rifts may be left too long to revive. Because friends are the loves of our lives, as the iconic, aspirational, sometimes toxic Carrie Bradshaw's Girl Gang told us back when we were young, and in the manner of loves of our lives, they run the gammer of being the best and worst of us. They lift you higher, and they break your fucking heart, and respect must be paid here's a raised, steaming tea mug. To the friend you can itch your hormone patch in front of, who will walk beside you in your stupid weighted vest, who will congratulate you for your teeny weeny tomato harvest and agree that your partner is a dickhead today and a hero tomorrow. Who sees you through your job, through your children, through what your body's doing today. Who knows your mum's not been well. Who knows when your next appointment is. Who knows when to ask if you're okay and when to shut the hell up. Who dropped the meme of your dreams in the group chat on a bad day, and will sing in the car with you at the top of your terrible voices when life feels right. The friends who know the backstory, who indulge your tantrums just enough. To the deep grown up friendships and the ones forged over silly shared enthusiasms. To the ones who live next door and the ones on the other side of the world, and the ones who aren't here anymore. Soul mats all, Hello, I'm Holly Wainwright, and I am mid midlife, mid family, mid midlife crisis Number eight. We've been away for a while, and now we're back. This is season four, a mid the show for gen X women who are anything but, and over the next eight episodes, I'm going to be talking to grown up women, some of whom you know, some you'll be meeting for the first time, who have great stories and spot on insights into the things that make a life. I always say we've got no time or tolerance for small talk by the time we get here, but that doesn't mean everything is heavy, quite the opposite. I know that right now, I'm searching for conversations that cheer me, that soothe me, that make me laugh, make me hopeful, distract me from the enormous and tiny challenges that we're all wading through every day in our real lives and out in the big scary world. Some of the conversations we've got for you here are about things like shamefree sex, and falling in love again after a big split, about reinvention after a massive career crash, about caring for our aging parents, and about hair and a lot more too. So I hope you I'm going to love season four. But today I'm having a conversation about something I've been dying to talk about with people I've been dying to talk to. I think you probably all know who Amanda Keller is. I'll tell you really quickly just in case, that she's an accomplished and experienced media everything. She's a TV host and an award winning rating topping breakfast radio legend. But I'm going to stop talking because what I've got Amanda to come in and tell us about was none of that, really, even though we obviously go there a little bit. I invited her and her best friend to come in and talk about friendship. The person sitting beside Amanda in this conversation is her equally accomplished and impressive best friend, Anita McGregor. The two make their own podcasts together, which you'll hear about obviously, but I predict that five minutes into this you'll be as obsessed with Anita as I am, and with their friendship. And now I really am going to stop talking, because the first thing I asked Amanda and Nita to do was to introduce each other through a best friend's eyes to you.

Yes, Anita McGregor, by profession, is a forensic psychologist. I only mentioned the profession is because it gives her an insight into society that many of us wouldn't normally have, and you do it with such kindness. I'm always amazed at the respect you give your clients. These are people who are before the courts, people who have transgressed, people who might be major sex offenders, people who are living really tough lives.

Yes, Anita McGregor, by profession, is a forensic psychologist. I only mentioned the profession is because it gives her an insight into society that many of us wouldn't normally have, and you do it with such kindness. I'm always amazed at the respect you give your clients. These are people who are before the courts, people who have transgressed, people who might be major sex offenders, people who are living really tough lives.

And the delicacy with.

And the delicacy with.

Which you treat them and the respect you give them and their place in society, I find is a very refreshing take. So that's why you're a very interesting person to have in the room to reflect on anyone talking about society, life, rules, justice.

Which you treat them and the respect you give them and their place in society, I find is a very refreshing take. So that's why you're a very interesting person to have in the room to reflect on anyone talking about society, life, rules, justice.

You're a great calming voice.

You're a great calming voice.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And she's a scrag scrag favorite strat favorites.

And she's a scrag scrag favorite strat favorites.

Well, the pressure is on them.

Well, the pressure is on them.

Something nice about that wasn't what was in my head.

Something nice about that wasn't what was in my head.

This is my friend Amanda Keller, who, gosh, I would imagine everyone in Australia knows of you that you are a radio broadcaster, you are a TV star. You are but you are also more than that. You are a wife, you are a mother, you are a great friend, an intrepid walker with me.

This is my friend Amanda Keller, who, gosh, I would imagine everyone in Australia knows of you that you are a radio broadcaster, you are a TV star. You are but you are also more than that. You are a wife, you are a mother, you are a great friend, an intrepid walker with me.

You are all those things and.

You are all those things and.

The thing that I think that is the most amazing quality of you is that when people ask you know, oh you know Amanda Keller, you know what she like? And I think my response is generally, you know how kind and generous she seems, you know on the air on the TV. That's exactly what you get. She is kind and she is generous and I love her.

The thing that I think that is the most amazing quality of you is that when people ask you know, oh you know Amanda Keller, you know what she like? And I think my response is generally, you know how kind and generous she seems, you know on the air on the TV. That's exactly what you get. She is kind and she is generous and I love her.

Oh it's lovely.

Oh it's lovely.

And she didn't wood, not even once. Beautiful and nada. You're from Canada, I am. And you met Amanda quite early in your time in Australia, within about a month. Can you tell me how we met? Story?

And she didn't wood, not even once. Beautiful and nada. You're from Canada, I am. And you met Amanda quite early in your time in Australia, within about a month. Can you tell me how we met? Story?

Oh, so we meet cute, I meet cute. Yes, so we had moved here. It was supposed to be like a two year adventure. My husband had been offered a contract to work and I thought, oh, it's going to be just such a fun thing.

Oh, so we meet cute, I meet cute. Yes, so we had moved here. It was supposed to be like a two year adventure. My husband had been offered a contract to work and I thought, oh, it's going to be just such a fun thing.

I didn't know a soul.

I didn't know a soul.

I'd never been here, and we had rented a place in Coujie at the recommendation of one of my husband's workmates, and we had just got all the shipment in. I was exhausted and I went for a massage with a friend of ours, Jackie Racist, and she said, Oh, you're new here, why don't you come there's a Dancing with the Stars on which I didn't know. I had no idea what the show was. And my friend and Amanda is dancing in it. Why don't you come over and watch this? And I thought this is weird, but I went and I watched.

I'd never been here, and we had rented a place in Coujie at the recommendation of one of my husband's workmates, and we had just got all the shipment in. I was exhausted and I went for a massage with a friend of ours, Jackie Racist, and she said, Oh, you're new here, why don't you come there's a Dancing with the Stars on which I didn't know. I had no idea what the show was. And my friend and Amanda is dancing in it. Why don't you come over and watch this? And I thought this is weird, but I went and I watched.

Because you didn't know Jackie either, I don't know how jack here you had to step over the friendship divide with her to beginning.

Because you didn't know Jackie either, I don't know how jack here you had to step over the friendship divide with her to beginning.

Yes, absolutely, And so saw you on Dancing with the Stars. Had no idea, and then you invited us out to it was a charity thing, and I went out and met you there and all these people were pointing and going, that's Amanda Keller.

Yes, absolutely, And so saw you on Dancing with the Stars. Had no idea, and then you invited us out to it was a charity thing, and I went out and met you there and all these people were pointing and going, that's Amanda Keller.

I had no idea.

I had no idea.

And then, you know, so we just kind of got to know each other that way, with me just being completely naive to you know, the world of Amanda Keller, and which was really actually kind of a nice way to do it, because I, you know, I think I would have probably been intimidated or weirded out or something, and I just wasn't. And so yeah, and then we started started dating friendship.

And then, you know, so we just kind of got to know each other that way, with me just being completely naive to you know, the world of Amanda Keller, and which was really actually kind of a nice way to do it, because I, you know, I think I would have probably been intimidated or weirded out or something, and I just wasn't. And so yeah, and then we started started dating friendship.

Dating friendship.

Dating friendship.

When you're new in a new country, you have some friendship vacancies that need filling.

When you're new in a new country, you have some friendship vacancies that need filling.

Oh, It's a scary thing is on the one hand, there's just this I can be whoever I want. But on the other hand, it's like nobody knows. Like those friendships that you have with people that you've known since you've been kids, or university or kids, you know, when you've had kids, and there's this kind of shorthand that you have as a friend, and I didn't have any of that. So there it was a double edged sword for for quite a while.

Oh, It's a scary thing is on the one hand, there's just this I can be whoever I want. But on the other hand, it's like nobody knows. Like those friendships that you have with people that you've known since you've been kids, or university or kids, you know, when you've had kids, and there's this kind of shorthand that you have as a friend, and I didn't have any of that. So there it was a double edged sword for for quite a while.

It's like nobody knows me, and it's like nobody knows me, but Amanda, you presumably didn't necessarily have very many vacancies. How did Anita get.

It's like nobody knows me, and it's like nobody knows me, but Amanda, you presumably didn't necessarily have very many vacancies. How did Anita get.

Questions? She's got an enormous chick.

Questions? She's got an enormous chick.

I'm for assistance.

I'm for assistance.

I just think there was some hugely common ground in our nature's maybe because I don't actually know how to answer that question.

I just think there was some hugely common ground in our nature's maybe because I don't actually know how to answer that question.

We would start to.

We would start to.

Go for walks as a group, but as a group we would socialize, and then you and I kind of splinted off at some point and we'd go for weekly walks and just talk. And I don't know how to be more specific than that. It kind of just evolved really that it wasn't like we were starstruck with each other when we saw each other and fell in love.

Go for walks as a group, but as a group we would socialize, and then you and I kind of splinted off at some point and we'd go for weekly walks and just talk. And I don't know how to be more specific than that. It kind of just evolved really that it wasn't like we were starstruck with each other when we saw each other and fell in love.

It just evolved.

It just evolved.

And often in those big groups you form your little factions within them. Factions is a harsh word, but your little friendship groups within them. And we kind of splint it off and made one of those a little satellite.

And often in those big groups you form your little factions within them. Factions is a harsh word, but your little friendship groups within them. And we kind of splint it off and made one of those a little satellite.

And was there a moment when you kind of went, oh, we're definitely going to be friends or was it just that slow burn? Oh I'm gonna I need to call Anita. I want to tell Anita that like that kind of thing.

And was there a moment when you kind of went, oh, we're definitely going to be friends or was it just that slow burn? Oh I'm gonna I need to call Anita. I want to tell Anita that like that kind of thing.

I really think it was a slow burn.

I really think it was a slow burn.

I think so too.

I think so too.

And it's interesting how much when people meet Anita as a psychologist for you, but I reckon you. Probably a see of people saying, don't analyze me, thinking that that's what she'll do. And I laugh when I hear that. But at the same time, I find it so interesting that I blab about every single thing to you in my life and you answer with friendship, never with I never feel your sounds terrible, never being professional.

And it's interesting how much when people meet Anita as a psychologist for you, but I reckon you. Probably a see of people saying, don't analyze me, thinking that that's what she'll do. And I laugh when I hear that. But at the same time, I find it so interesting that I blab about every single thing to you in my life and you answer with friendship, never with I never feel your sounds terrible, never being professional.

Your sometimes I really am.

Your sometimes I really am.

There's never a you know what you should do, there's never any of I never think, oh, that's right, you're a psychologist. I never ever feel that we meet as friends, and I don't know how you separate the two.

There's never a you know what you should do, there's never any of I never think, oh, that's right, you're a psychologist. I never ever feel that we meet as friends, and I don't know how you separate the two.

I don't know how you do that.

I don't know how you do that.

I you know, I think for the most part the it well, because I've been a psychologist for over thirty years, like half my life, more than half my life.

I you know, I think for the most part the it well, because I've been a psychologist for over thirty years, like half my life, more than half my life.

That it's you know, just the.

That it's you know, just the.

That main idea about I'm going to listen is, you know, that's kind of my life as a psychologist, but it's also my life as a friend. And I you know, I don't give advice to my clients either, really, so it feels pretty comfortable in doing that.

That main idea about I'm going to listen is, you know, that's kind of my life as a psychologist, but it's also my life as a friend. And I you know, I don't give advice to my clients either, really, so it feels pretty comfortable in doing that.

I think some people would be really jealous that you're best friend's a psychologists, because you would imagine that you'd be like, you know, we all go through things, particularly midlife can get very rolling pastry, and you're like free therapy.

I think some people would be really jealous that you're best friend's a psychologists, because you would imagine that you'd be like, you know, we all go through things, particularly midlife can get very rolling pastry, and you're like free therapy.

But it's interesting, it never feels like therapy.

But it's interesting, it never feels like therapy.

But though maybe subconsciously, and I don't know if it's subconscious for you, but maybe you're like a border Collie like my dog that kind of just subtly hurts me somewhere. Yeah, and I'm not even aware of it.

But though maybe subconsciously, and I don't know if it's subconscious for you, but maybe you're like a border Collie like my dog that kind of just subtly hurts me somewhere. Yeah, and I'm not even aware of it.

I was listening to your show recently to double a Chattery, and I think Amanda you were talking about and I've been doing this too, reframing I have to with I get to gratitude. And I was listening to your conversation, and if I was in your shoes, Amanda, I would have been looking for approval from Anita on that like that. She goes, that's very good. I know.

I was listening to your show recently to double a Chattery, and I think Amanda you were talking about and I've been doing this too, reframing I have to with I get to gratitude. And I was listening to your conversation, and if I was in your shoes, Amanda, I would have been looking for approval from Anita on that like that. She goes, that's very good. I know.

I find myself saying to her, I read this incredible theme in Dolly magazine, like I must tell you the most basic psychological things I've read and you and like, I've been seeing this incredible person. She said, I should try this and you must go God.

I find myself saying to her, I read this incredible theme in Dolly magazine, like I must tell you the most basic psychological things I've read and you and like, I've been seeing this incredible person. She said, I should try this and you must go God.

But you were great, Anita, because you said something like and how's it going for you? Like, which is a therapistic thing to say in a way, but like, but exactly what you need and you are like, it's helping, it's helping. So I imagine that that is it's not a deliberate dynamic, but it must be great.

But you were great, Anita, because you said something like and how's it going for you? Like, which is a therapistic thing to say in a way, but like, but exactly what you need and you are like, it's helping, it's helping. So I imagine that that is it's not a deliberate dynamic, but it must be great.

But I never feel self conscious saying to Anita the dumbest, most basic way I cope with anything, and you never make me feel judged, and sometimes like it's only now talking to you, Holly, I think, yeah, actually, how embarrassing that I've said to Anita here's an interesting psychology you probably haven't.

But I never feel self conscious saying to Anita the dumbest, most basic way I cope with anything, and you never make me feel judged, and sometimes like it's only now talking to you, Holly, I think, yeah, actually, how embarrassing that I've said to Anita here's an interesting psychology you probably haven't.

Heard Of't be grateful.

Heard Of't be grateful.

Apparently, it's really let me introduce her to it, Anita can't.

Apparently, it's really let me introduce her to it, Anita can't.

Let's try that.

Let's try that.

Well, at the risk of doing the same thing to it now, I was going to say that there's a lot of studies out there that friendship is absolutely crucial to our mental health, right and connection, and there's a lot of sort of handringing about that. Maybe as a community, as a world, we're getting less connected and we're finding friendships harder because we fear the judgment that comes with it, or we're not sure how to connect, or we're just not in the same physical spaces to connect. I mean, what do you inter One of the things that mid listeners tell me all the time is it's their girlfriends often. I mean, they're friends, but their girlfriends often that save them, that get them through the hard times. Do you think that we're in a crisis of connection? And are we right to think that our friendships are the things that keep us saying.

Well, at the risk of doing the same thing to it now, I was going to say that there's a lot of studies out there that friendship is absolutely crucial to our mental health, right and connection, and there's a lot of sort of handringing about that. Maybe as a community, as a world, we're getting less connected and we're finding friendships harder because we fear the judgment that comes with it, or we're not sure how to connect, or we're just not in the same physical spaces to connect. I mean, what do you inter One of the things that mid listeners tell me all the time is it's their girlfriends often. I mean, they're friends, but their girlfriends often that save them, that get them through the hard times. Do you think that we're in a crisis of connection? And are we right to think that our friendships are the things that keep us saying.

There's a big part of me that would just like to answer, yes, it's a crisis. We need you know, we've really disconnected and all that. But I was actually just recently reading some research that really delighted me that was talking about. It was mostly about adolescent mental health, but what they were talking about is that often we're looking about like how many friends do we have?

There's a big part of me that would just like to answer, yes, it's a crisis. We need you know, we've really disconnected and all that. But I was actually just recently reading some research that really delighted me that was talking about. It was mostly about adolescent mental health, but what they were talking about is that often we're looking about like how many friends do we have?

And you know, but the.

And you know, but the.

Research actually is much more supportive of having one or two really good friends, and because once you get into a bigger like any more than three or four and we've all been there where you get into a bigger friendship group and it does split into like not I know you were saying factions, and sometimes it is, but it's you know, it's like she likes me better, and you know, you've get all the way left.

Research actually is much more supportive of having one or two really good friends, and because once you get into a bigger like any more than three or four and we've all been there where you get into a bigger friendship group and it does split into like not I know you were saying factions, and sometimes it is, but it's you know, it's like she likes me better, and you know, you've get all the way left.

I wasn't invited on that wall.

I wasn't invited on that wall.

Course, yeah yeah, or you know they've they've organized to do something and I'm not there, And especially with social media, that can be so hurtful. So I actually was really encouraged by the idea that, yes, there is a disconnection, and yet the answer isn't I need one hundred friends and I need to be out and doing things every night. The idea, sometimes, I think, is more about finding those those opportunities to get deeper with somebody, to be a little bit vulnerable with somebody, and to see whether you can create that friendship you know, like you know, sometimes it's not you know, just falling in love in a friendship, but it's sometimes it is that slow burn. And you know, there's there's also riches that research that says you need to spend about one thousand hours with somebody to actually create that depth, that that history with each other.

Course, yeah yeah, or you know they've they've organized to do something and I'm not there, And especially with social media, that can be so hurtful. So I actually was really encouraged by the idea that, yes, there is a disconnection, and yet the answer isn't I need one hundred friends and I need to be out and doing things every night. The idea, sometimes, I think, is more about finding those those opportunities to get deeper with somebody, to be a little bit vulnerable with somebody, and to see whether you can create that friendship you know, like you know, sometimes it's not you know, just falling in love in a friendship, but it's sometimes it is that slow burn. And you know, there's there's also riches that research that says you need to spend about one thousand hours with somebody to actually create that depth, that that history with each other.

It's one thousand dollars a lot puts. What's that in a context of a week or a year. I can't do the meths on it.

It's one thousand dollars a lot puts. What's that in a context of a week or a year. I can't do the meths on it.

I don't know, And I mean I don't know how they count that. I mean, it is it just a text to each other?

I don't know, And I mean I don't know how they count that. I mean, it is it just a text to each other?

Does that count?

Does that count?

But?

But?

I mean I think that we can connect in a lot of different ways now.

I mean I think that we can connect in a lot of different ways now.

Because people worry about their friendship connections faltering as life changes. Right, so you two have been friends for the best part of two decades. Right, busy people, big jobs in different ways. How practically do you stay connected to your friends? Is like little kids to big kids, Career shifts, geographical moves like are you schedule people? Are you like it's every Wednesday? I mean, how do you do that?

Because people worry about their friendship connections faltering as life changes. Right, so you two have been friends for the best part of two decades. Right, busy people, big jobs in different ways. How practically do you stay connected to your friends? Is like little kids to big kids, Career shifts, geographical moves like are you schedule people? Are you like it's every Wednesday? I mean, how do you do that?

It's interesting.

It's interesting.

Before I get to how we do it, I often feel anxiety around the fact I'm not very good at it with a lot of people and a text may come up let's get together, and I have a panic over it. I never do that with you, Anita, And there are some friends where you go, I'll get to you and I can get to you, or let's put it in the diary for the future. I'm not really I don't have time right now that can fill me with anxiety, so I can limit my work. But sometimes it's the social stuff that I find I'm not very good at limiting, and that makes me panic.

Before I get to how we do it, I often feel anxiety around the fact I'm not very good at it with a lot of people and a text may come up let's get together, and I have a panic over it. I never do that with you, Anita, And there are some friends where you go, I'll get to you and I can get to you, or let's put it in the diary for the future. I'm not really I don't have time right now that can fill me with anxiety, so I can limit my work. But sometimes it's the social stuff that I find I'm not very good at limiting, and that makes me panic.

I feel the same way.

I feel the same way.

Yeah, And one of the reasons why we bought a place on the South Coast was so that I could say I'm not here this week because I will fill every gap if people ask me to, whether I want to or not.

Yeah, And one of the reasons why we bought a place on the South Coast was so that I could say I'm not here this week because I will fill every gap if people ask me to, whether I want to or not.

Do you fill the gaps because you feel anxious to have the space, or do you feel gaps as a people? Please fill the gaps?

Do you fill the gaps because you feel anxious to have the space, or do you feel gaps as a people? Please fill the gaps?

People, please, And to let people down and they're my friends and I haven't seen them for a while, and that's what friends do.

People, please, And to let people down and they're my friends and I haven't seen them for a while, and that's what friends do.

But you have gotten much better, or at least with me.

But you have gotten much better, or at least with me.

I'm saying no.

I'm saying no.

Of you know, kind of saying I don't want to do this now, or I can't do this, or I don't have the energy, or those kinds of which is you know, I think a lovely thing that friends can do with each other. But we and we're not exactly schedule people, but other than we have a standing date at least once on the weekend to go for a while when we're in town.

Of you know, kind of saying I don't want to do this now, or I can't do this, or I don't have the energy, or those kinds of which is you know, I think a lovely thing that friends can do with each other. But we and we're not exactly schedule people, but other than we have a standing date at least once on the weekend to go for a while when we're in town.

And now that you've moved further away, that now involves a car. We used to just meet down at the beach and go for a walk, so one of us has to get up half an hour earlier and be ready earlier. The first time I went to Anita's new place with my dog, I was very.

And now that you've moved further away, that now involves a car. We used to just meet down at the beach and go for a walk, so one of us has to get up half an hour earlier and be ready earlier. The first time I went to Anita's new place with my dog, I was very.

Rude of her to move, and I could feel it. An you moved like a few So you've moved across town.

Rude of her to move, and I could feel it. An you moved like a few So you've moved across town.

Yes, it's probably about half an hour away. Twenty minutes.

Yes, it's probably about half an hour away. Twenty minutes.

Twenty minutes.

Twenty minutes.

Well, my dog must have taken it very personally because when you went to Anita's new but she just had the carpets, claimed many has never done this before. She went in and did a giant whee on then.

Well, my dog must have taken it very personally because when you went to Anita's new but she just had the carpets, claimed many has never done this before. She went in and did a giant whee on then.

You come out. It was awful, awful.

You come out. It was awful, awful.

But I find also physically as things get harder for me. I've had two hit replacements and I've got a thritis in my back.

But I find also physically as things get harder for me. I've had two hit replacements and I've got a thritis in my back.

We all do it some we've all got stuff.

We all do it some we've all got stuff.

But there's some days we'll say to Anita, I had I was filming this week or whatever it is, and I stood up all week. I'm just too sort of go for a walk. So I'm being more diligent with myself in protecting myself. But I know I can say that to you With other people, I may not know I can say to you, sorry about that. I just feel crap today.

But there's some days we'll say to Anita, I had I was filming this week or whatever it is, and I stood up all week. I'm just too sort of go for a walk. So I'm being more diligent with myself in protecting myself. But I know I can say that to you With other people, I may not know I can say to you, sorry about that. I just feel crap today.

Do you think it's the mark of good friendship. I think I heard a conversation that you were where you were talking about how a good friendship is someone can come over to your house and you don't feel like you have to tidy, you know, you have to feel like you have to tidy the counters or whatever. I'm not a natural hostess. It sends me into a panic if somebody is coming to my house. But is it also a sign of good friendship that when you do say I just don't have the energy or there's just too many other demands that they're not going to get offended by that.

Do you think it's the mark of good friendship. I think I heard a conversation that you were where you were talking about how a good friendship is someone can come over to your house and you don't feel like you have to tidy, you know, you have to feel like you have to tidy the counters or whatever. I'm not a natural hostess. It sends me into a panic if somebody is coming to my house. But is it also a sign of good friendship that when you do say I just don't have the energy or there's just too many other demands that they're not going to get offended by that.

Oh?

Oh?

Absolutely, And I'm trying to push through worrying about that that this is what I have, this is what I have to do to survive today. Not survive that's overly dramatic, but you know I work hard all week as many of us do stuff and stuff and stuff, and you get to the weekend and think, I just don't have anyemy to tick it up earlier this morning.

Absolutely, And I'm trying to push through worrying about that that this is what I have, this is what I have to do to survive today. Not survive that's overly dramatic, but you know I work hard all week as many of us do stuff and stuff and stuff, and you get to the weekend and think, I just don't have anyemy to tick it up earlier this morning.

And go for a walk.

And go for a walk.

You're doing a very good job at ignoring my tears that you know.

You're doing a very good job at ignoring my tears that you know.

What's she doing.

What's she doing.

She's put on the water works, hasn't she She's going with the waterworks. But also what I love about our friendship is that you mentioned before about being vulnerable and eata. You can bitch and moan about your husband, about your parents, about you, anything, and it's such a safe space that you know that that isn't the mark of that relationship that you're having. That's just how you're feeling Today's like you could never tell your mum how you if you had a fight with your boyfriend or your husband, because they would never get over it, they'd mark them forever. Whereas I feel quite safe sharing that stuff with you when we.

She's put on the water works, hasn't she She's going with the waterworks. But also what I love about our friendship is that you mentioned before about being vulnerable and eata. You can bitch and moan about your husband, about your parents, about you, anything, and it's such a safe space that you know that that isn't the mark of that relationship that you're having. That's just how you're feeling Today's like you could never tell your mum how you if you had a fight with your boyfriend or your husband, because they would never get over it, they'd mark them forever. Whereas I feel quite safe sharing that stuff with you when we.

Have I love early in our friendship, I think that remember we had a conversation that one of us was saying something about our husband, and you know, and and we said, let's recognize that I might like if it was me, I might be mad at Emmett right now. And you get to hear this, but you don't get to hear us make up. You don't get to hear the conversation that happens after when we resolve things.

Have I love early in our friendship, I think that remember we had a conversation that one of us was saying something about our husband, and you know, and and we said, let's recognize that I might like if it was me, I might be mad at Emmett right now. And you get to hear this, but you don't get to hear us make up. You don't get to hear the conversation that happens after when we resolve things.

You don't get to hear any of that.

You don't get to hear any of that.

So you know, you need that cognitive process to kind of say I get that, you know, I might be mad at Emmett today, but you know we have a long term marriage, and so we're going to get through it.

So you know, you need that cognitive process to kind of say I get that, you know, I might be mad at Emmett today, but you know we have a long term marriage, and so we're going to get through it.

And that's the stuff you never see in popular culture. You never see the boring bits in the middle where things get resolved, because that's not interesting to anybody.

And that's the stuff you never see in popular culture. You never see the boring bits in the middle where things get resolved, because that's not interesting to anybody.

It's true, I often wonder this as we get older and wise, there are lots of things happen. Do you think friends, good friends call each other out when they're being unreasonable, you know, maybe making choices that aren't good for them, Or do you think that good friends are always the supportive rock. That's what I'm always wrestling with is whether you you know that where people say the people closer to you should be the ones you say you need to stop doing that thing, or whether they're the ones who are the understanding ones. What do you think?

It's true, I often wonder this as we get older and wise, there are lots of things happen. Do you think friends, good friends call each other out when they're being unreasonable, you know, maybe making choices that aren't good for them, Or do you think that good friends are always the supportive rock. That's what I'm always wrestling with is whether you you know that where people say the people closer to you should be the ones you say you need to stop doing that thing, or whether they're the ones who are the understanding ones. What do you think?

I'm highly sensitive, and so I judge the messenger very harshly. And even though in an ideal world you say yes, you're you know, practically you want your friends to tell you that, I don't think I want to hear it.

I'm highly sensitive, and so I judge the messenger very harshly. And even though in an ideal world you say yes, you're you know, practically you want your friends to tell you that, I don't think I want to hear it.

How do you feel?

How do you feel?

Yeah, like you know that friend And I'm not saying any wanted this, but the friend who is always complaining about their husband or their job or whatever it is, or you know, something in their lifestyle. Always at what point do good friends say? Hey?

Yeah, like you know that friend And I'm not saying any wanted this, but the friend who is always complaining about their husband or their job or whatever it is, or you know, something in their lifestyle. Always at what point do good friends say? Hey?

I think it depends on the friendship. Like like you and I have had that conversation that you know, if I looked really terrible in an outfit, you wouldn't tell me that.

I think it depends on the friendship. Like like you and I have had that conversation that you know, if I looked really terrible in an outfit, you wouldn't tell me that.

I would never tell you.

I would never tell you.

They never tell even though I'd want to hear it. Like I'm really big on feedback, and so I gut that that would make you feel uncomfortable, even though I'd like to hear it. And so, and I recognize that you are sensitive, and so.

They never tell even though I'd want to hear it. Like I'm really big on feedback, and so I gut that that would make you feel uncomfortable, even though I'd like to hear it. And so, and I recognize that you are sensitive, and so.

All my outfits terrible. It's all I've heard in this entire conversation, she's mean to.

All my outfits terrible. It's all I've heard in this entire conversation, she's mean to.

Talk to you about it.

Talk to you about it.

We've had this.

We've had this.

We actually have had this conversation. I wrote a book a number of years ago and Anita wanted to read it, and I said, oh, here it is, just thinking, I'm just.

We actually have had this conversation. I wrote a book a number of years ago and Anita wanted to read it, and I said, oh, here it is, just thinking, I'm just.

Passing it over.

Passing it over.

And she said, how would you how do you take feedback feedback?

And she said, how would you how do you take feedback feedback?

Because I didn't know.

Because I didn't know.

Like, I was like, you're an educator't me?

Like, I was like, you're an educator't me?

Yeah, I mean that's my that's my life, you know, teaching students and stuff and giving feedback.

Yeah, I mean that's my that's my life, you know, teaching students and stuff and giving feedback.

So I'm I'm really like, I was like, do you do you?

So I'm I'm really like, I was like, do you do you?

And then and it was like hmm, and so we just that's a great book, Amanda.

And then and it was like hmm, and so we just that's a great book, Amanda.

I'm like, mate, your job is to tell me everything I do is great, because there are plenty of other people in my life we're going to tell me.

I'm like, mate, your job is to tell me everything I do is great, because there are plenty of other people in my life we're going to tell me.

That it's not.

That it's not.

But I have friendships where I could say that too, and I have colleagues that I you know, that's the basis of our work relationship where we give each other really strong feedback, and you know, certainly with my supervisors and and that kind of stuff. So there, I think it depends on the friendship, and it depends on the topic, because there may be topics where you know, I may think that I don't know, like I mean, if I thought that you were being really overreacting to something.

But I have friendships where I could say that too, and I have colleagues that I you know, that's the basis of our work relationship where we give each other really strong feedback, and you know, certainly with my supervisors and and that kind of stuff. So there, I think it depends on the friendship, and it depends on the topic, because there may be topics where you know, I may think that I don't know, like I mean, if I thought that you were being really overreacting to something.

Actually we had this conversation recently. Is that I was overreacting to something. I was cranky about about ten things. And you showed me a clip of a woman who had a nail in her head and she was talking to her husband and she was and she was saying, I just don't feel right.

Actually we had this conversation recently. Is that I was overreacting to something. I was cranky about about ten things. And you showed me a clip of a woman who had a nail in her head and she was talking to her husband and she was and she was saying, I just don't feel right.

You're not supporting me enough.

You're not supporting me enough.

And he's trying to say, we've got a nail in your head, and she said, no, no, no, this this, and he said, no, you've got a nail in your head. And finally he says, oh, sweetheart, I hear what she's saying. You're not feeling going. She's just thank you. And I've been thinking about that a lot, because you probably observed me. My husband's done well, and so I'm looking at the world through a filter. And you were saying, you know, you're seeing all this with a nail in your head. I didn't know what to do about the nail, but I thought, yes, but I am seeing the world. I do have a nail in my head, so I didn't know how to process the fact that I do have a nail in my head. But that's one of the only times where I thought, you're trying to tell me something here. I'm not sure exactly what it is, because I know that I know that I'm having a negative moment or a depressive moment, or an angry moment where I'm seeing everything through that veil and I'm aware of it. But on the other hand, I think, well, here's why, because some things.

And he's trying to say, we've got a nail in your head, and she said, no, no, no, this this, and he said, no, you've got a nail in your head. And finally he says, oh, sweetheart, I hear what she's saying. You're not feeling going. She's just thank you. And I've been thinking about that a lot, because you probably observed me. My husband's done well, and so I'm looking at the world through a filter. And you were saying, you know, you're seeing all this with a nail in your head. I didn't know what to do about the nail, but I thought, yes, but I am seeing the world. I do have a nail in my head, so I didn't know how to process the fact that I do have a nail in my head. But that's one of the only times where I thought, you're trying to tell me something here. I'm not sure exactly what it is, because I know that I know that I'm having a negative moment or a depressive moment, or an angry moment where I'm seeing everything through that veil and I'm aware of it. But on the other hand, I think, well, here's why, because some things.

Came pretty shite, and your natural stat is to be optimistic and see things, you know, very positively. I cannot remember what was going through my head at the time I showed it. I you know that that it was probably something that I had showed a class or something. I probably was thinking about how hard you were seeing the world at the time.

Came pretty shite, and your natural stat is to be optimistic and see things, you know, very positively. I cannot remember what was going through my head at the time I showed it. I you know that that it was probably something that I had showed a class or something. I probably was thinking about how hard you were seeing the world at the time.

It's interesting because also you would have heard the term a million times about toxic positivity, where we're encouraged by pop culture and you know, sort of leaking for one of a better term, therapy, speaking to everyday life, to put a positive spin on everything and to see everything as a lesson. And you know what am I learning from this today? And I'm sure this you know whereas sometimes things are just terrible shit and.

It's interesting because also you would have heard the term a million times about toxic positivity, where we're encouraged by pop culture and you know, sort of leaking for one of a better term, therapy, speaking to everyday life, to put a positive spin on everything and to see everything as a lesson. And you know what am I learning from this today? And I'm sure this you know whereas sometimes things are just terrible shit and.

You need to sit in the shammer into your own hair.

You need to sit in the shammer into your own hair.

Yeah, absolutely, and just sit and feel the nail. Just step field.

Yeah, absolutely, and just sit and feel the nail. Just step field.

But it did give me a really good perspective.

But it did give me a really good perspective.

I just thought, yes, I am being this today, and I probably won't be this tomorrow, but I'm seeing a whole lot of good things.

I just thought, yes, I am being this today, and I probably won't be this tomorrow, but I'm seeing a whole lot of good things.

It was because I'm talking about how.

It was because I'm talking about how.

People were trying to help and I was getting cranky at everything. I think that was it. I just needed a shift in perspective.

People were trying to help and I was getting cranky at everything. I think that was it. I just needed a shift in perspective.

More of my conversation with best friends Amanda Keller and Anita McGregor after this short break stay with us. We've touched on a couple of these in this conversation, I think, but in which ways are you similar? In which ways are you different? So we've acknowledged here that Amanda is the sensitive one, and you would be more straight talking if she wasn't such a snowflake.

More of my conversation with best friends Amanda Keller and Anita McGregor after this short break stay with us. We've touched on a couple of these in this conversation, I think, but in which ways are you similar? In which ways are you different? So we've acknowledged here that Amanda is the sensitive one, and you would be more straight talking if she wasn't such a snowflake.

Interestingly, I have a job where I get rated and judged by ratings and constant I don't read a lot of social media feedback because I just wouldn't be able to handle it. So ironically, in my work life, it's constant judgment and constant feedback and constant feedback.

Interestingly, I have a job where I get rated and judged by ratings and constant I don't read a lot of social media feedback because I just wouldn't be able to handle it. So ironically, in my work life, it's constant judgment and constant feedback and constant feedback.

I think that's probably why in your personal life you're also a.

I think that's probably why in your personal life you're also a.

Bit like that.

Bit like that.

Yeah, that's try to put the blinkers on. How are we similar, Anita, let's ask the grown up?

Yeah, that's try to put the blinkers on. How are we similar, Anita, let's ask the grown up?

Yeah, you know, it is interesting that that. You know, when we go to your place on the South Coast and we spend a weekend together, we will spend days.

Yeah, you know, it is interesting that that. You know, when we go to your place on the South Coast and we spend a weekend together, we will spend days.

You know, what are we going to eat? What are we going to do?

You know, what are we going to eat? What are we going to do?

And we generally end up eating you know, sardines on toast, and we end up reading books together or playing dominoes when we can, and you know, so it's the similarities are that that. It's a funny thing to say because I tend to get up at about you get up at what four for work, Yeah, And I usually get up at about four thirty, just because that's when my you know, my brain starts turning on. And so it's I think that because we're both mourning people and we both have very similar kind of rhythms about how our lives and our work, you know, just go.

And we generally end up eating you know, sardines on toast, and we end up reading books together or playing dominoes when we can, and you know, so it's the similarities are that that. It's a funny thing to say because I tend to get up at about you get up at what four for work, Yeah, And I usually get up at about four thirty, just because that's when my you know, my brain starts turning on. And so it's I think that because we're both mourning people and we both have very similar kind of rhythms about how our lives and our work, you know, just go.

I think that's right.

I think that's right.

And we do kitchen time very well together, yeah, which I think is a big part of a great friendship.

And we do kitchen time very well together, yeah, which I think is a big part of a great friendship.

Is that we plann what are we going to eat? When are doing this and not being this?

Is that we plann what are we going to eat? When are doing this and not being this?

And we chop chop chop, and I'm going to put this on and we potter very well together and then we sit down and read very well together comfortably.

And we chop chop chop, and I'm going to put this on and we potter very well together and then we sit down and read very well together comfortably.

You can't do that with everybody.

You can't do that with everybody.

No, you can't. You can't do that with that. You can't have that away time where you're not doing, doing doing all the time. Is it hard to have a friend who's in the public eye, Anita, a best friend who's in the public eye, And do you feel defensive of her? And when there's invasions of your privacy? And do you not talk about work?

No, you can't. You can't do that with that. You can't have that away time where you're not doing, doing doing all the time. Is it hard to have a friend who's in the public eye, Anita, a best friend who's in the public eye, And do you feel defensive of her? And when there's invasions of your privacy? And do you not talk about work?

I am protective of you in that I don't.

I am protective of you in that I don't.

I don't often like because you know, by my nature, I'm quite private, you know, part of it's just who I am, but it's part of it has been my profession as well, and so I recognize the need for some sense of privacy. So I'm protective of that. I don't tell a lot of people that we're friends. I mean, it's kind of.

I don't often like because you know, by my nature, I'm quite private, you know, part of it's just who I am, but it's part of it has been my profession as well, and so I recognize the need for some sense of privacy. So I'm protective of that. I don't tell a lot of people that we're friends. I mean, it's kind of.

Hard not to now now now you've got public we're going to Esky podcast.

Hard not to now now now you've got public we're going to Esky podcast.

It is, yeah, so.

It is, yeah, so.

It must it might manifest itself strangely.

It must it might manifest itself strangely.

For example, when we went to see Kat Stevens and this guy asked Anita to take a photo of me and him, and then he came back after interval and said, well, I've been looking for you.

For example, when we went to see Kat Stevens and this guy asked Anita to take a photo of me and him, and then he came back after interval and said, well, I've been looking for you.

That was a terrible closure, and.

That was a terrible closure, and.

I thought sorry for Anita because she hasn't asked to be dragged into this.

I thought sorry for Anita because she hasn't asked to be dragged into this.

It was hilarious. So I took a picture on the top of his head.

It was hilarious. So I took a picture on the top of his head.

Like you totally asked for talking about the podcast, because your conversation, your chemistry on that is so brilliant, and as you you're I'm sure you had an instinct, Amanda, because you knew that Anita's, as you've said in her introduction, just such an interesting thinker in terms of what you talk about. So you must have been like, this is going to be good. But was it also just an excuse to spend more time together.

Like you totally asked for talking about the podcast, because your conversation, your chemistry on that is so brilliant, and as you you're I'm sure you had an instinct, Amanda, because you knew that Anita's, as you've said in her introduction, just such an interesting thinker in terms of what you talk about. So you must have been like, this is going to be good. But was it also just an excuse to spend more time together.

Oh, it absolutely was. It was all of those things.

Oh, it absolutely was. It was all of those things.

But we'd often talk about things on the walk that I think other people might like to be part of this conversation too, Because I'd come from things from one perspective and Anita would come from a completely different perspective. I thought that would be an interesting thing for people to hear, because you know, a million people have podcasts and have opinions and have things to say. But I thought I haven't heard somebody like Anita.

But we'd often talk about things on the walk that I think other people might like to be part of this conversation too, Because I'd come from things from one perspective and Anita would come from a completely different perspective. I thought that would be an interesting thing for people to hear, because you know, a million people have podcasts and have opinions and have things to say. But I thought I haven't heard somebody like Anita.

Do you disagree very much in terms of on issues and things that are happening in the world, because so on Mama, MI are out loud, which I obviously do with two of my good friends. But we do disagree, and people often say that must be really hard. And I don't know if this is true or not. You probably do know an to and it's true or not. But somebody said, if you can disagree on the details, but if your values are shared, it's easier.

Do you disagree very much in terms of on issues and things that are happening in the world, because so on Mama, MI are out loud, which I obviously do with two of my good friends. But we do disagree, and people often say that must be really hard. And I don't know if this is true or not. You probably do know an to and it's true or not. But somebody said, if you can disagree on the details, but if your values are shared, it's easier.

I think her values are definitely share. I don't think that we've ever had any bigger disagreements.

I think her values are definitely share. I don't think that we've ever had any bigger disagreements.

We tend to.

We tend to.

You know. What I find is really interesting is that Amanda has been my educator in you know, political things, Australian history that you know that you know who's you know, what's happened in austral.

You know. What I find is really interesting is that Amanda has been my educator in you know, political things, Australian history that you know that you know who's you know, what's happened in austral.

History of Peter Andre, that kind of stuff, that kind.

History of Peter Andre, that kind of stuff, that kind.

Of stuff, the really important stuff that culture yeah yeah, but yeah, pop culture, but also kind of just historical things. And so we tend You're right, we tend to come at things with from different angles. But but I think under the underlying that is that similarity and values.

Of stuff, the really important stuff that culture yeah yeah, but yeah, pop culture, but also kind of just historical things. And so we tend You're right, we tend to come at things with from different angles. But but I think under the underlying that is that similarity and values.

We did a podcast the week of the terrible Bondi stabbings, and I was so grateful to have somebody like Anita to give a perspective on this in that the media was filled with stories about we're not doing enough for the victims, and it's so true, but you came at it from a different perspective, which was you work every day with the perpetrators, and we need to fix the problem upstream. We need to invest in the perpetrators. And people didn't want to hear about They didn't want him to be part of the conversation, they didn't want any of that kind of discussed. And it's true that our sympathies were downstream, but we were never going to fix it until we looked upstream. You spoke with such sympathy and clarity about the kind of people that are upstream and why we need to help them.

We did a podcast the week of the terrible Bondi stabbings, and I was so grateful to have somebody like Anita to give a perspective on this in that the media was filled with stories about we're not doing enough for the victims, and it's so true, but you came at it from a different perspective, which was you work every day with the perpetrators, and we need to fix the problem upstream. We need to invest in the perpetrators. And people didn't want to hear about They didn't want him to be part of the conversation, they didn't want any of that kind of discussed. And it's true that our sympathies were downstream, but we were never going to fix it until we looked upstream. You spoke with such sympathy and clarity about the kind of people that are upstream and why we need to help them.

HM.

HM.

So yeah, but I think that that again your compassion for you know, your broad audience, like it's you know, you were asking before about is it tough to have you know, somebody who's in the public eye as a friend.

So yeah, but I think that that again your compassion for you know, your broad audience, like it's you know, you were asking before about is it tough to have you know, somebody who's in the public eye as a friend.

But you know, one of the things.

But you know, one of the things.

That the toughest part is that when you know, we'll be out at an event and people stop Amanda, you know, and we'll sometimes be in the middle of a conversation, but you are often always so kind and willing, and you know, so you come from a position of compassion as well that you recognize that it is you know, the people who listen to you deserve some of your time.

That the toughest part is that when you know, we'll be out at an event and people stop Amanda, you know, and we'll sometimes be in the middle of a conversation, but you are often always so kind and willing, and you know, so you come from a position of compassion as well that you recognize that it is you know, the people who listen to you deserve some of your time.

Well, it's a privilege to be called somebody's friend, that they feel they know you and worry about you and think about you and care about you and want to come up and say hellow, I see.

Well, it's a privilege to be called somebody's friend, that they feel they know you and worry about you and think about you and care about you and want to come up and say hellow, I see.

That is a privilege.

That is a privilege.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely. I want to ask you both because obviously you have started the podcast, you both have big careers. Really I want to know how you're, just in terms of general wisdom, how your attitude to work and ambition is at this point in your lives, because you've made a decision to start this new project, which requires commitment, promotion, all of those things.

Absolutely. I want to ask you both because obviously you have started the podcast, you both have big careers. Really I want to know how you're, just in terms of general wisdom, how your attitude to work and ambition is at this point in your lives, because you've made a decision to start this new project, which requires commitment, promotion, all of those things.

It's funny that, like I've just come back onto the radio that were in the second week, part of me goes, oh god, that's right, I'm sixty three this year. Part of me thinks this schedule is hard, But I thought that I don't know what I pictured when I was younger, But I thought the dailiness of radio would have worn me down by now. But it's hard with my shifting fortunes at home in terms of my husband not being well.

It's funny that, like I've just come back onto the radio that were in the second week, part of me goes, oh god, that's right, I'm sixty three this year. Part of me thinks this schedule is hard, But I thought that I don't know what I pictured when I was younger, But I thought the dailiness of radio would have worn me down by now. But it's hard with my shifting fortunes at home in terms of my husband not being well.

Is that I need. I now know somewhere to go every day.

Is that I need. I now know somewhere to go every day.

I need an alarm clock to go off in the morning and for me to go somewhere where I'm fully engaged for a chunk of hours of the day, where I laugh, I cry, I listen to other people's stories. You scratch the surface and everybody has a story. I've spoken about this about the word sounder, which means the gradual realization that everybody is going through something, something good, something sad, and I'm aware of that. With a radio audience, they're having their best and their worst days and you're not even aware of it, but you're on the ride with them. And so I find being there is a great equalizer for me. If I think if I was just sitting at home, I would wallow. So by the time in my life I thought I'd be wrapping this up, I actually realize how much I.