Michael Lewis is like a literary Forrest Gump. He always seems to know where the biggest story of the year is going to be–and he’s usually halfway through a book about it when it breaks. This time he couldn’t have gotten the timing better: his book Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon came out the same day as Sam Bankman-Fried, the book’s subject, went on trial in the aftermath of the collapse of his crypto exchange, FTX, and Alameda Research.

So thank goodness Michael is here, because there are enough acronyms in this fascinating story to make your head spin–not to mention getting your head around the blockchain. In this conversation Michael takes us from his first impressions to his hard-won insights into SBF and his motivations, mistakes, and the mayhem he’s been at the center of. He also takes the time to talk us through the Effective Altruism movement that underpinned SBF’s ideology and explains the ins and outs of FTX’s rise–and the details of how it collapsed, taking billions in net worths along with it. He also hints at how that money might not be so gone after all. 

If you can’t get enough of this story check out Michael’s podcast Judging Sam, available wherever you get your podcasts.