Good morning and Merry Christmas to you and your family. This morning I'm joined by Bishop Robert Baron, the ninth Bishop of the Diocese of Wenona, Rochester and the founder of Word on Fire, which I recommend to everyone. Bishop Baron, welcome, Thank you for joining me on News World here at Christmas. Would you mind starting us off with a message about Christmas and what it means to you?

Good morning and Merry Christmas to you and your family. This morning I'm joined by Bishop Robert Baron, the ninth Bishop of the Diocese of Wenona, Rochester and the founder of Word on Fire, which I recommend to everyone. Bishop Baron, welcome, Thank you for joining me on News World here at Christmas. Would you mind starting us off with a message about Christmas and what it means to you?

Well, first of all, thank you for having me on. It's good to be with you, and Merry Christmas to all the listeners today. You know, somebody the Church Father said over and over again, was God became man, that man might become God. And it might seem a little peculiar at first, but it's based in the Bible, namely, that God becomes one of us precisely to draw us into his life. So the Greek fathers talked about theosis in their language, but Thomas Aquinas picked it up in the West. He used the word deificazio deification that we become sharers in God's nature. God became one of us that we might become sharers in his own life. And that I think is the deepest meaning of Christmas. It's the message of the incarnation, So not just a sort of a strange one off, but somebody that's at the very heart of our human life. That God is not just a moral exemplar for us, but God is calling us into intimacy with Himself. And that happens through the incarnation, and that's the message of Christmas. God becomes this little baby. God joins us in our weakness, our vulnerability, our finitude, that we might become sharers in his own nature. I always call it the marvelous humanism of Christianity. There's no humanism, ancient or modern, that holds out a higher ideal for human beings than Christianity, because the ordinary goal of the Christian life is to become a sharer in God's nature. So the humanism of our tradition is grounded by in this great feast of Christmas.

Well, first of all, thank you for having me on. It's good to be with you, and Merry Christmas to all the listeners today. You know, somebody the Church Father said over and over again, was God became man, that man might become God. And it might seem a little peculiar at first, but it's based in the Bible, namely, that God becomes one of us precisely to draw us into his life. So the Greek fathers talked about theosis in their language, but Thomas Aquinas picked it up in the West. He used the word deificazio deification that we become sharers in God's nature. God became one of us that we might become sharers in his own life. And that I think is the deepest meaning of Christmas. It's the message of the incarnation, So not just a sort of a strange one off, but somebody that's at the very heart of our human life. That God is not just a moral exemplar for us, but God is calling us into intimacy with Himself. And that happens through the incarnation, and that's the message of Christmas. God becomes this little baby. God joins us in our weakness, our vulnerability, our finitude, that we might become sharers in his own nature. I always call it the marvelous humanism of Christianity. There's no humanism, ancient or modern, that holds out a higher ideal for human beings than Christianity, because the ordinary goal of the Christian life is to become a sharer in God's nature. So the humanism of our tradition is grounded by in this great feast of Christmas.

In your own experience, how did you open up to God?

In your own experience, how did you open up to God?

Well, Chris, I'm born and raised a Catholic, and so I was, you know, brought up in the church and going to Mass, and my parents were very devout Catholics. An experience that I remember very vividly is I'm a kid of what four or five at the time, maybe, and simply watching my father at prayer on his knees at Mass. You know, I thought of my father as the most powerful person in the world, and to see him humbly in the presence of a power greater than himself. That had a huge impact on me when I was a little kid. But then in a more refined way, when I was in high school, I discovered Saint Thomas Aquinas. And though I was a believer in God, to be sure, but when I came across the arguments for God's existence, I realized that you could think about God in a very serious way, an intellectually serious way, And that beguiled my when I was a kid and led me to books and ideas and all that, and then it began to reach into deeper parts of my soul. It reached my heart. But I say, the witness of my parents, especially my dad, and then the emergence of Thomas Aquinas in my life when I was a teenager, those both had a huge impact on me.

Well, Chris, I'm born and raised a Catholic, and so I was, you know, brought up in the church and going to Mass, and my parents were very devout Catholics. An experience that I remember very vividly is I'm a kid of what four or five at the time, maybe, and simply watching my father at prayer on his knees at Mass. You know, I thought of my father as the most powerful person in the world, and to see him humbly in the presence of a power greater than himself. That had a huge impact on me when I was a little kid. But then in a more refined way, when I was in high school, I discovered Saint Thomas Aquinas. And though I was a believer in God, to be sure, but when I came across the arguments for God's existence, I realized that you could think about God in a very serious way, an intellectually serious way, And that beguiled my when I was a kid and led me to books and ideas and all that, and then it began to reach into deeper parts of my soul. It reached my heart. But I say, the witness of my parents, especially my dad, and then the emergence of Thomas Aquinas in my life when I was a teenager, those both had a huge impact on me.

As you have grown in Christ, you created word on fire which anybody can access in the world. What led you to that? It's a great profound breakthrough in being able to share the Gospel worldwide. You do it as well as anybody I know.

As you have grown in Christ, you created word on fire which anybody can access in the world. What led you to that? It's a great profound breakthrough in being able to share the Gospel worldwide. You do it as well as anybody I know.

I appreciate that, you know. I was a teacher at the seminary outside Chicago, so I had been sent for my doctoral studies to Paris. Loved books, Love the Life of the Mind, got my doctorate, was able to travel through Europe, and I had all those great experiences. Came back and I was a teacher for a number of years, taught courses. I began to write books. I was on the Catholic speaker circuit, you know, going around giving retreats and talks and so on. But it occurred to me by the late nineties, so I've been teaching now for seven or eight years, that there was so much more we could do. I could spend the rest of my life. I thought, you know, writing books for a relatively small audience and giving talks to rooms of two or three hundred people. But I said, why not do what Fulton Sheen did back in the thirties, forties and fifties. I mean, why not use the technology available to us now? When I started, it still was basically TV and radio and that sort of thing. So I went to WGN Radio in Chicago, the biggest radio station, and I said, just for fun, tell me how much would it cost to have a little sermon show. And they said to me, well, for fifty thousand dollars, we'll put you on at five point fifteen on Sunday morning. So I went to my parish and I said, you know, just that, if you're willing to help me, I can get on the radio at five point fifteen. And God bless them, they did. They gave me the money, and that's how it started. It grew then to a website, and then I started recording a number of talks I've been giving though got on Catholic television, and my profile, you know, grew a bit. And then we had a breakthrough with the Catholicism series, which was modeled after Kenneth Clark Civilization, which is a show that impacted me when I was a kid, this great English art historian taking us all over the Western world and showing us the great works of art. I said, why not do something like that with Catholicism. So again, scrape together the money. Somehow we did that, and that's then really what brought it to a different level. And then we began the podcasts and the YouTube and all that business. But it started with just my conviction that we should be doing more, that we could do more, that Fulton Sheen was the model, but we had kind of dropped the ball after Fulton Sheen. So that's what inspired me.

I appreciate that, you know. I was a teacher at the seminary outside Chicago, so I had been sent for my doctoral studies to Paris. Loved books, Love the Life of the Mind, got my doctorate, was able to travel through Europe, and I had all those great experiences. Came back and I was a teacher for a number of years, taught courses. I began to write books. I was on the Catholic speaker circuit, you know, going around giving retreats and talks and so on. But it occurred to me by the late nineties, so I've been teaching now for seven or eight years, that there was so much more we could do. I could spend the rest of my life. I thought, you know, writing books for a relatively small audience and giving talks to rooms of two or three hundred people. But I said, why not do what Fulton Sheen did back in the thirties, forties and fifties. I mean, why not use the technology available to us now? When I started, it still was basically TV and radio and that sort of thing. So I went to WGN Radio in Chicago, the biggest radio station, and I said, just for fun, tell me how much would it cost to have a little sermon show. And they said to me, well, for fifty thousand dollars, we'll put you on at five point fifteen on Sunday morning. So I went to my parish and I said, you know, just that, if you're willing to help me, I can get on the radio at five point fifteen. And God bless them, they did. They gave me the money, and that's how it started. It grew then to a website, and then I started recording a number of talks I've been giving though got on Catholic television, and my profile, you know, grew a bit. And then we had a breakthrough with the Catholicism series, which was modeled after Kenneth Clark Civilization, which is a show that impacted me when I was a kid, this great English art historian taking us all over the Western world and showing us the great works of art. I said, why not do something like that with Catholicism. So again, scrape together the money. Somehow we did that, and that's then really what brought it to a different level. And then we began the podcasts and the YouTube and all that business. But it started with just my conviction that we should be doing more, that we could do more, that Fulton Sheen was the model, but we had kind of dropped the ball after Fulton Sheen. So that's what inspired me.

Bishop Sheen made Christianity totally practical and totally irrelevant, and did so with a sense of humor. He was a great showman.

Bishop Sheen made Christianity totally practical and totally irrelevant, and did so with a sense of humor. He was a great showman.

He had a certain genius and part of it, you know, was he was very highly trained in Catholic philosophy and theology. He had the agrege, which is this advanced degree in theology from Louvain University. So Sheen was a high level academic. But he also had his finger on the pulse of the culture. He understood American culture. For example, he used a lot of psychology, used a lot of Freud because he knew that Freud was sort of making his way into the culture. He engaged in a lot of polemics against communism, which was a major political theme of the day. So he combined a rich Catholic intellectual formation with a keen understanding of the culture. And as you say, I think the humor was very important for Sheen. The greatest comedians of the day. You know, Jackie Gleison and Milton Borough admired his timing, his comic timing, so she was able to pull that off in a rather extraordinary way. And at the time there were what a handful of TV stations, and so if you get on television in those days, you were reaching much of the country.

He had a certain genius and part of it, you know, was he was very highly trained in Catholic philosophy and theology. He had the agrege, which is this advanced degree in theology from Louvain University. So Sheen was a high level academic. But he also had his finger on the pulse of the culture. He understood American culture. For example, he used a lot of psychology, used a lot of Freud because he knew that Freud was sort of making his way into the culture. He engaged in a lot of polemics against communism, which was a major political theme of the day. So he combined a rich Catholic intellectual formation with a keen understanding of the culture. And as you say, I think the humor was very important for Sheen. The greatest comedians of the day. You know, Jackie Gleison and Milton Borough admired his timing, his comic timing, so she was able to pull that off in a rather extraordinary way. And at the time there were what a handful of TV stations, and so if you get on television in those days, you were reaching much of the country.

It's hard nowadays, with the extraordinary range of opportunities to remember what it was like back then.

It's hard nowadays, with the extraordinary range of opportunities to remember what it was like back then.

Right, there's a flip side to it, because now you know, we can be twenty four to seven all over the world and all these different platforms. Sheen had to rely on people coming at a particular time on the radio or TV to hear him. In a way, we're in a much better position than Sheen was in.

Right, there's a flip side to it, because now you know, we can be twenty four to seven all over the world and all these different platforms. Sheen had to rely on people coming at a particular time on the radio or TV to hear him. In a way, we're in a much better position than Sheen was in.

You make the point that when we talk about the Christmas Story, we look at Luke's account, the story really opens up by invoking two of the most powerful people in the world. It says, well, Corinius was the governor of Syria, and when Caesar Augustus was king of the world, census was called. It never quite occurred to me until I read your work that I've always seen that as kind of placing it historically. But there's also drawing a contrast that these two guys had secular power, but here comes this little baby who in fact will have far more power.

You make the point that when we talk about the Christmas Story, we look at Luke's account, the story really opens up by invoking two of the most powerful people in the world. It says, well, Corinius was the governor of Syria, and when Caesar Augustus was king of the world, census was called. It never quite occurred to me until I read your work that I've always seen that as kind of placing it historically. But there's also drawing a contrast that these two guys had secular power, but here comes this little baby who in fact will have far more power.

There's no question about it. I mean, Luke, all the Gospel writers were literary as well as theological geniuses. And the way he uses Quairindius and Augustus to kind of haunt your mind as you read that story. So these figures would have had all the things that we associate with worldly power. They honor and prestige, and they had armies behind them, and they had a comfortable place to live and all of that. And then Luke tells this story of this little nothing couple making their way to this dusty outpost and the baby, it can't even be born in the Travelers hostel, is born in a cave or a stable, is put in the place where animals eat, is wrapped up. In other words, has no power, no prestige, no honor. Yet And I think the key to that story is at the end when the angel who always inspires fear in the Bible, when an angel appears from another dimensional system, but then appearing with the single angel is an entire army of angels. And see that's no accident that an army is associated with the Baby King, which is far more powerful than the army associated with Quirinius or Caesar Augustus. And what I find extraordinary there is, here's a man writing this story, let's say, around the you're eighty or so of the first century, when Christians were a tiny, tiny minority in a handful of cities in the eastern Mediterranean. And yet he was saying very clearly, this baby, this Messiah is more powerful than Caesar. And at the time, I mean, it was an incredible thing to say. But yet it's true, isn't it. I mean, we're still here and Caesar is long gone. I mean, Christianity, those following the Baby King were still a great world power two thousand years later. The Caesars are long gone. And so the gospel writers they got something, they understood something. I think here even in our own time. You know, you and I lived through the fall of the Soviet Union. Who would have guessed when I was a teenager in the seventies and someone told me that the Soviet Empire would collapse with barely a shot being fired, and that the pope would be a major player in it. That would be wild fantasy. That's what happened. And the Christmas story, you're quite right, is about that dynamic that the true King and the true army are more powerful than the armies of the world.

There's no question about it. I mean, Luke, all the Gospel writers were literary as well as theological geniuses. And the way he uses Quairindius and Augustus to kind of haunt your mind as you read that story. So these figures would have had all the things that we associate with worldly power. They honor and prestige, and they had armies behind them, and they had a comfortable place to live and all of that. And then Luke tells this story of this little nothing couple making their way to this dusty outpost and the baby, it can't even be born in the Travelers hostel, is born in a cave or a stable, is put in the place where animals eat, is wrapped up. In other words, has no power, no prestige, no honor. Yet And I think the key to that story is at the end when the angel who always inspires fear in the Bible, when an angel appears from another dimensional system, but then appearing with the single angel is an entire army of angels. And see that's no accident that an army is associated with the Baby King, which is far more powerful than the army associated with Quirinius or Caesar Augustus. And what I find extraordinary there is, here's a man writing this story, let's say, around the you're eighty or so of the first century, when Christians were a tiny, tiny minority in a handful of cities in the eastern Mediterranean. And yet he was saying very clearly, this baby, this Messiah is more powerful than Caesar. And at the time, I mean, it was an incredible thing to say. But yet it's true, isn't it. I mean, we're still here and Caesar is long gone. I mean, Christianity, those following the Baby King were still a great world power two thousand years later. The Caesars are long gone. And so the gospel writers they got something, they understood something. I think here even in our own time. You know, you and I lived through the fall of the Soviet Union. Who would have guessed when I was a teenager in the seventies and someone told me that the Soviet Empire would collapse with barely a shot being fired, and that the pope would be a major player in it. That would be wild fantasy. That's what happened. And the Christmas story, you're quite right, is about that dynamic that the true King and the true army are more powerful than the armies of the world.

Kristen I did a movie called Nine Days the Change the World. How about John Paul the second going back and it's astonishing the impact he has and thegree to which he suddenly arouses the Polish people.

Kristen I did a movie called Nine Days the Change the World. How about John Paul the second going back and it's astonishing the impact he has and thegree to which he suddenly arouses the Polish people.

You're quite right, and that's it's marvelous your documentary and that whole story is marvelous. But it calls to mind the Stalin line. Right, it was about Pius the twelfth. How many divisions does the pope have when the pope critiqued him, Well, the successor of pis the twelve brought down the successor of Stalin without a single division. But it speaks to spiritual power, which we've always known about. Spiritual power can change the whole world.

You're quite right, and that's it's marvelous your documentary and that whole story is marvelous. But it calls to mind the Stalin line. Right, it was about Pius the twelfth. How many divisions does the pope have when the pope critiqued him, Well, the successor of pis the twelve brought down the successor of Stalin without a single division. But it speaks to spiritual power, which we've always known about. Spiritual power can change the whole world.

There's a great line in the movie where George Weigel quotes stalem and then says, you know, it turned out that the pope had far more divisions than Stalin never imagined.

There's a great line in the movie where George Weigel quotes stalem and then says, you know, it turned out that the pope had far more divisions than Stalin never imagined.

That's quite right, and that signaled in the Christmas story when this invisible army. I don't sentimentalize the angels of Christmas. They're on every Christmas card and we sentimentalize them, but they're not sentimental figures. In the Bible, angels are always ferocious figures. They're fearsome figures. And now you get an army of those together. That's what's associated with the Baby King, which means the powers of the world should tremble seecause at the heart of Christianity is a sort of taunt to worldly power, because we hold up the Cross, which struck first century people as exceedingly strange that you would hold up the image of someone being tortured to death by Roman power. But that's the kind of delicious poetry of Christianity, as we hold that up as a sort of taunt to the world to say, well, We're not afraid of what you can do to us, because God's love is more powerful than anything that you have. And that's not just wishful thinking. You can see it in the John Paul story.

That's quite right, and that signaled in the Christmas story when this invisible army. I don't sentimentalize the angels of Christmas. They're on every Christmas card and we sentimentalize them, but they're not sentimental figures. In the Bible, angels are always ferocious figures. They're fearsome figures. And now you get an army of those together. That's what's associated with the Baby King, which means the powers of the world should tremble seecause at the heart of Christianity is a sort of taunt to worldly power, because we hold up the Cross, which struck first century people as exceedingly strange that you would hold up the image of someone being tortured to death by Roman power. But that's the kind of delicious poetry of Christianity, as we hold that up as a sort of taunt to the world to say, well, We're not afraid of what you can do to us, because God's love is more powerful than anything that you have. And that's not just wishful thinking. You can see it in the John Paul story.

What do you think most Christians miss from the celebration of Christmas?

What do you think most Christians miss from the celebration of Christmas?

They miss the radicality and subversiveness of it, the two things we've been talking about, because we sentimentalize it that's the problem. It's Dickens, and Dickens was a great figure and a great Christian. I don't want to be bad mouthing Dickens, but we associate Christmas now with you know, the Dickenzie in London, and we sort of romanticize it. But Christmas in the Bible is subversive and it's radical. God becomes one of us that we might become sharers in his nature, and God becomes one of us in order to lead a great spiritual army whose purposes to conquer the world. And so in Jesus, the risen Christs go forth and proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to bring them under the lord ship of Jesus. Well, that's not WEISTLM.

They miss the radicality and subversiveness of it, the two things we've been talking about, because we sentimentalize it that's the problem. It's Dickens, and Dickens was a great figure and a great Christian. I don't want to be bad mouthing Dickens, but we associate Christmas now with you know, the Dickenzie in London, and we sort of romanticize it. But Christmas in the Bible is subversive and it's radical. God becomes one of us that we might become sharers in his nature, and God becomes one of us in order to lead a great spiritual army whose purposes to conquer the world. And so in Jesus, the risen Christs go forth and proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to bring them under the lord ship of Jesus. Well, that's not WEISTLM.

Dixie.

Dixie.

I mean, that's a very powerful summons. And the lordship of Jesus means just that that he wants all of life brought under his sovereignty. I think that's what people miss when it comes to Christmas.

I mean, that's a very powerful summons. And the lordship of Jesus means just that that he wants all of life brought under his sovereignty. I think that's what people miss when it comes to Christmas.

I always look back on this with amazement that here's this very small number of people who in their hearts are so passionately, deeply committed that within a century they're a worldwide movement. You look at that and you think something mystical happened.

I always look back on this with amazement that here's this very small number of people who in their hearts are so passionately, deeply committed that within a century they're a worldwide movement. You look at that and you think something mystical happened.

Something happened, Well, you know, I rely there on nt Right, the great biblical historian, because Wright said, presin from religion for a minute. Just from a purely historical standpoint, what is very hard to explain is the emergence of Christianity as a Messianic movement. And what he meant was, at that time and place, the clearest sign possible that you were not the Messiah of Israel would be your death at the hands of Israel's enemies, because the Ziah was meant to be the king of the nations. And so if someone wanted to say, look, your guy is not it, all you'd have to do is say, look, the Romans put him the death. Well, Christianity didn't hide that. On the contrary, Paul says, that's all I preach is Christ and him crucified. But at the same time they said, yeah, the one that Caesar crucified, he is the Messiah of God. And then to your point, it shows something happened. Even to explain the emergence of this movement apart from the resurrection, it's very hard to explain it.

Something happened, Well, you know, I rely there on nt Right, the great biblical historian, because Wright said, presin from religion for a minute. Just from a purely historical standpoint, what is very hard to explain is the emergence of Christianity as a Messianic movement. And what he meant was, at that time and place, the clearest sign possible that you were not the Messiah of Israel would be your death at the hands of Israel's enemies, because the Ziah was meant to be the king of the nations. And so if someone wanted to say, look, your guy is not it, all you'd have to do is say, look, the Romans put him the death. Well, Christianity didn't hide that. On the contrary, Paul says, that's all I preach is Christ and him crucified. But at the same time they said, yeah, the one that Caesar crucified, he is the Messiah of God. And then to your point, it shows something happened. Even to explain the emergence of this movement apart from the resurrection, it's very hard to explain it.

It's the empty tomb, is the moment of realizing that the effort of the establishment, both the Jewish establishment and the Roman political establishment, has failed, that Christ in fact is not dead. He was temporarily gone and is now back right.

It's the empty tomb, is the moment of realizing that the effort of the establishment, both the Jewish establishment and the Roman political establishment, has failed, that Christ in fact is not dead. He was temporarily gone and is now back right.

The most fundamental form of charigmatic preaching, so called the charigma, being the basic good news. The basic form is Caesar killed them, God raised him. That's what the first preacher said. You kill them, your people, kill them, God raised them. That's the coarigma, and that is a subversive sort of message. That's a very challenging message, which is why most of the first Christian preachers ended up in prison and put to death, because the powers that be understood that. They knew how radical this message was. Even Paul saying again and again as he does, Jesus curios, Jesus is Lord, because Kaiser was curios. Caesar was lord in that time and place, and so to say no, not Caesar, but Jesus is Lord. That's why Paul was in prison a lot, and why they eventually cut his head off is they knew how subversive that was. We've lost a lot of that edginess. I'm afraid.

The most fundamental form of charigmatic preaching, so called the charigma, being the basic good news. The basic form is Caesar killed them, God raised him. That's what the first preacher said. You kill them, your people, kill them, God raised them. That's the coarigma, and that is a subversive sort of message. That's a very challenging message, which is why most of the first Christian preachers ended up in prison and put to death, because the powers that be understood that. They knew how radical this message was. Even Paul saying again and again as he does, Jesus curios, Jesus is Lord, because Kaiser was curios. Caesar was lord in that time and place, and so to say no, not Caesar, but Jesus is Lord. That's why Paul was in prison a lot, and why they eventually cut his head off is they knew how subversive that was. We've lost a lot of that edginess. I'm afraid.

Part of it is you have to have people who believe so deeply that they regard having their head cut off as a reasonable trade. It is in that sense, in the early days a religion of martyrs. Over and over.

Part of it is you have to have people who believe so deeply that they regard having their head cut off as a reasonable trade. It is in that sense, in the early days a religion of martyrs. Over and over.

Again witnesses and the blood of the martyrs the seat of Christians is told said, and that's exactly how it worked. But see it still works. When I was filming the Catholism series, we were in Namogongo near Kampala, and that's where Charles Lwanga and his companions were murdered in the late eighteen hundreds, and anyone watching that would have said, well, that's the end of Christianity. But now every year on his feat stage Dune the third, something like a million people converge on that spot. And when I was there filming, I was just sort of moved to quote Tertullian. I said, the blood of the martyrs is still the seat of Christians. And take a look. And then the camera panned out to this enormous crowd. So it's still true, still.

Again witnesses and the blood of the martyrs the seat of Christians is told said, and that's exactly how it worked. But see it still works. When I was filming the Catholism series, we were in Namogongo near Kampala, and that's where Charles Lwanga and his companions were murdered in the late eighteen hundreds, and anyone watching that would have said, well, that's the end of Christianity. But now every year on his feat stage Dune the third, something like a million people converge on that spot. And when I was there filming, I was just sort of moved to quote Tertullian. I said, the blood of the martyrs is still the seat of Christians. And take a look. And then the camera panned out to this enormous crowd. So it's still true, still.

True, when you are at Mass and you take the Eucharist, the representation of Christ and the degree to which Christ is in you. Two thousand years later, as experienced by well over a billion, three hundred million people, is an astonishing statement of faith.

True, when you are at Mass and you take the Eucharist, the representation of Christ and the degree to which Christ is in you. Two thousand years later, as experienced by well over a billion, three hundred million people, is an astonishing statement of faith.

Yeah, it's the distinctive mark of Catholic Christianity is we don't think of Jesus as simply an inspiring teacher or a distant historical figure. We eat him and we drink him, We take him into our bodies. The Church Father said that it's the way we become immortalized, so preparing ourselves to live forever. Well, we become immortalized through the Eucharist, so that the kind of wonderful, gritty realism of our eucharistic faith, that Jesus is really truly and substantially present. That matters a lot, because otherwise it's easy to think of him, make him a very abstract figure. But no, we eat him and we drink.

Yeah, it's the distinctive mark of Catholic Christianity is we don't think of Jesus as simply an inspiring teacher or a distant historical figure. We eat him and we drink him, We take him into our bodies. The Church Father said that it's the way we become immortalized, so preparing ourselves to live forever. Well, we become immortalized through the Eucharist, so that the kind of wonderful, gritty realism of our eucharistic faith, that Jesus is really truly and substantially present. That matters a lot, because otherwise it's easy to think of him, make him a very abstract figure. But no, we eat him and we drink.

Him, and in that process there is a personal experience. It seems to me that when you go, for example, in Rome, to certain key places where there are martyrs, and you realize these people, in a sense, were happy to be martyred. They were dying in the absolute faith of rebirth, and they felt that the people who weren't prepared to be martyred were much poorer and we're not going to in fact be reborn.

Him, and in that process there is a personal experience. It seems to me that when you go, for example, in Rome, to certain key places where there are martyrs, and you realize these people, in a sense, were happy to be martyred. They were dying in the absolute faith of rebirth, and they felt that the people who weren't prepared to be martyred were much poorer and we're not going to in fact be reborn.

Yeah, and I think that's true in those days and true in our time. Think of a Maximian Colbay and the depth of the Holocaust in Auschwitz, but willingly gives his life to save someone else. That's someone who's living in a different plaine. That's someone who's opened up a depth dimension to life. It's still true the Great Martyrs, and that's still the source of the church's deepest life.

Yeah, and I think that's true in those days and true in our time. Think of a Maximian Colbay and the depth of the Holocaust in Auschwitz, but willingly gives his life to save someone else. That's someone who's living in a different plaine. That's someone who's opened up a depth dimension to life. It's still true the Great Martyrs, and that's still the source of the church's deepest life.

What was it like to move from Los Angeles to Minnesota?

What was it like to move from Los Angeles to Minnesota?

It felt like come. I loved LA. I'm from Chicago originally, and I was a priest there and I was rector of the seminary there. Loved Chicago, but I'm very used to the Midwest and Midwestern weather. I was sent to California, to my infinite surprise. I was made an auxiliary bishop out in LA and I was based in Santa Barbara, which is one of the loveliest places in the whole country. I loved it beautiful. But when I got the call, and that's how it happens in the church. No one ever talks to you. You've had no advance warning whatsoever. It's not discussed with you in any way. You just get a phone call out of the blue and it was you've been appointed at Bishop of Wenona, Rochester, Minnesota. My first thought was, I got to take out my Chicago winter coat again, which had been hanging up for six years in my closet. It felt like coming home. I felt like coming back to a culture I was very at home with.

It felt like come. I loved LA. I'm from Chicago originally, and I was a priest there and I was rector of the seminary there. Loved Chicago, but I'm very used to the Midwest and Midwestern weather. I was sent to California, to my infinite surprise. I was made an auxiliary bishop out in LA and I was based in Santa Barbara, which is one of the loveliest places in the whole country. I loved it beautiful. But when I got the call, and that's how it happens in the church. No one ever talks to you. You've had no advance warning whatsoever. It's not discussed with you in any way. You just get a phone call out of the blue and it was you've been appointed at Bishop of Wenona, Rochester, Minnesota. My first thought was, I got to take out my Chicago winter coat again, which had been hanging up for six years in my closet. It felt like coming home. I felt like coming back to a culture I was very at home with.

Given modern technology, do you find it for all practical purposes as easy to do? Word on fire from Wanona to Rochester.

Given modern technology, do you find it for all practical purposes as easy to do? Word on fire from Wanona to Rochester.

We're moving our studio to Rochester, right near the Mayo Clinic. We're moving right downtown. We had it in Santa Barbara at the wonderful Santa Barbe Remission. We were on the grounds of the mission. We just picked up all the equipment, shipped it out here and we've rented a space and we're building it out now as a studio. But see to your point. People said to me, oh, you know you were out in Hollywood, and wasn't that better for communication. I said, well, first of all, I wasn't in Hollywood. I was two hours out in Santa Barbara. And secondly, I said, we had our own equipment and studio, and I can do it just as well from here as I could from there, So that doesn't make a lot of difference.

We're moving our studio to Rochester, right near the Mayo Clinic. We're moving right downtown. We had it in Santa Barbara at the wonderful Santa Barbe Remission. We were on the grounds of the mission. We just picked up all the equipment, shipped it out here and we've rented a space and we're building it out now as a studio. But see to your point. People said to me, oh, you know you were out in Hollywood, and wasn't that better for communication. I said, well, first of all, I wasn't in Hollywood. I was two hours out in Santa Barbara. And secondly, I said, we had our own equipment and studio, and I can do it just as well from here as I could from there, So that doesn't make a lot of difference.

How much of your time does it take because it's brilliantly done.

How much of your time does it take because it's brilliantly done.

Well, that's due to my team. One of my team members is right here next to me, is I record this. We have about sixty people in Dallas, Chicago, now Rochester. They're the ones who's so good at the creative side of it and the tech side. I'm not very good at the tech side of it. I would say it takes about ten percent of my time. I usually write a column every week, I do a commentary every week. We filmed sermons, I have a couple of podcast shows. So maybe takes ten percent of my time. But most of my time now I'm the bishop of the diocese, so I'm going to you know, meetings, doing liturgies this morning, had masks, and then going for another mass later in the day. So that's my work. That's ninety percent of my work, and this is about ten percent.

Well, that's due to my team. One of my team members is right here next to me, is I record this. We have about sixty people in Dallas, Chicago, now Rochester. They're the ones who's so good at the creative side of it and the tech side. I'm not very good at the tech side of it. I would say it takes about ten percent of my time. I usually write a column every week, I do a commentary every week. We filmed sermons, I have a couple of podcast shows. So maybe takes ten percent of my time. But most of my time now I'm the bishop of the diocese, so I'm going to you know, meetings, doing liturgies this morning, had masks, and then going for another mass later in the day. So that's my work. That's ninety percent of my work, and this is about ten percent.

I was very impressive. Your YouTube videos have been seen by over ninety million times.

I was very impressive. Your YouTube videos have been seen by over ninety million times.

It's one hundred and twenty million now, I think, is it one hundred and twenty million?

It's one hundred and twenty million now, I think, is it one hundred and twenty million?

Yeah, And my wife is one of the half million people who get your daily email reflections. She literally has told me of several people who've come to her and who have been moved to convert to Catholicism by listening to your reflections.

Yeah, And my wife is one of the half million people who get your daily email reflections. She literally has told me of several people who've come to her and who have been moved to convert to Catholicism by listening to your reflections.

I mean, that's the whole plaison detre. That's the entire reason we're doing this. So nothing makes me happier than that.

I mean, that's the whole plaison detre. That's the entire reason we're doing this. So nothing makes me happier than that.

I mean, I think it's very important because every generation has to operate within the world that they've discovered. I was really struck a couple of years ago. I was reading a novel about Paul and the Corinthians, and I hadn't realized it, but the Romans had created this amazing postal service. And one of the reasons you get all of Paul's letters is whether he's in Malta or wherever he is, he can literally write his dispatches and mail them. And so here is the secular Roman imperial male carrying this subversive message all over the Mediterranean.

I mean, I think it's very important because every generation has to operate within the world that they've discovered. I was really struck a couple of years ago. I was reading a novel about Paul and the Corinthians, and I hadn't realized it, but the Romans had created this amazing postal service. And one of the reasons you get all of Paul's letters is whether he's in Malta or wherever he is, he can literally write his dispatches and mail them. And so here is the secular Roman imperial male carrying this subversive message all over the Mediterranean.

That would eventually undermine Caesar. And that's been observed, you know, for a while. So I think Christopher Dawson makes that observation too, that at the moment when it was most needed, there was a political structure. Think of the Roman roads, as you say, the Roman postal system and relative peace. So we just finished all the awful civil wars with Caesar and Antony and Cleopatra and all that was over, and so there was a kind of a relative peace obtaining in the Roman world, and that enabled the message to get out. And Paul used the technology of his time, which was Roman roads and parchment in the postal system. So that's what every generation has to do.

That would eventually undermine Caesar. And that's been observed, you know, for a while. So I think Christopher Dawson makes that observation too, that at the moment when it was most needed, there was a political structure. Think of the Roman roads, as you say, the Roman postal system and relative peace. So we just finished all the awful civil wars with Caesar and Antony and Cleopatra and all that was over, and so there was a kind of a relative peace obtaining in the Roman world, and that enabled the message to get out. And Paul used the technology of his time, which was Roman roads and parchment in the postal system. So that's what every generation has to do.

Can you talk about the Word on Fire Institute and why you decided to found it?

Can you talk about the Word on Fire Institute and why you decided to found it?

Yeah, Well, the Werdifire Institute was founded what about four years ago now, and the idea it's a kind of a think tan that's part of his purpose. We're gathering fellows who are supposed to do research and writing and producing of courses. So it's an online reality for the most part. So people join the Institute, they become members, and then they get access to all of our video material, but also to specialized courses in theology, spirituality, practical evangelism, et cetera. So the idea of the Institute is on the base of the fellows in their work to form lay people in the work of evangelization, because finally they're in the front lines of it. I want to form lay people to evangelize their own families, their own kids, their own workplaces. So that's the point of the Word on Fire Institute. And we do it through the fellows and the courses and articles and books that they produce.

Yeah, Well, the Werdifire Institute was founded what about four years ago now, and the idea it's a kind of a think tan that's part of his purpose. We're gathering fellows who are supposed to do research and writing and producing of courses. So it's an online reality for the most part. So people join the Institute, they become members, and then they get access to all of our video material, but also to specialized courses in theology, spirituality, practical evangelism, et cetera. So the idea of the Institute is on the base of the fellows in their work to form lay people in the work of evangelization, because finally they're in the front lines of it. I want to form lay people to evangelize their own families, their own kids, their own workplaces. So that's the point of the Word on Fire Institute. And we do it through the fellows and the courses and articles and books that they produce.

And one of your biggest impacts has been the award winning documentary series Catholicism, which you syndicated, which was nominated for an Emmy. That was a pretty courageous thing to tackle a project of that size.

And one of your biggest impacts has been the award winning documentary series Catholicism, which you syndicated, which was nominated for an Emmy. That was a pretty courageous thing to tackle a project of that size.

You know where that came from, I'll tell you exactly. It was at a board meeting. This is the early days. We didn't have much of a reach in those days. And a board member said to me, father, you know, if you're going crazy, dream big, what's your dream project? And I laid out that project. I said, what Kenneth Clark did in the seventies for Western Civilization, I'd like to do for Catholicism that we go all over the world. We'd film the most beautiful places, we would do it at a high level of production value. So they paused and they said, well, how come we can't do that. I said, well, first of all, I need the permission of my bishop. It was Cardinal George at the time, was a great hero of mine. I said, then we probably need I don't know, several million dollars, and so they started working at it. They went down and talked to the cardinal without me that the board went down and said could you give him permission to do this? And he said yes. And then we started fundraising and we scraped the money together. When we got enough for an episode, we'd go and we'd film and all that, and then we back to zero. We started filming by the Way twenty oh eight, and it was in the fall of twenty eight that the economy collapsed, and so a lot of our donors I remember saying, hey, father, I want to help you, but I can't right now. The stocks are so bad and I'm losing money. So we scraped our way over two years and then got that thing filmed.

You know where that came from, I'll tell you exactly. It was at a board meeting. This is the early days. We didn't have much of a reach in those days. And a board member said to me, father, you know, if you're going crazy, dream big, what's your dream project? And I laid out that project. I said, what Kenneth Clark did in the seventies for Western Civilization, I'd like to do for Catholicism that we go all over the world. We'd film the most beautiful places, we would do it at a high level of production value. So they paused and they said, well, how come we can't do that. I said, well, first of all, I need the permission of my bishop. It was Cardinal George at the time, was a great hero of mine. I said, then we probably need I don't know, several million dollars, and so they started working at it. They went down and talked to the cardinal without me that the board went down and said could you give him permission to do this? And he said yes. And then we started fundraising and we scraped the money together. When we got enough for an episode, we'd go and we'd film and all that, and then we back to zero. We started filming by the Way twenty oh eight, and it was in the fall of twenty eight that the economy collapsed, and so a lot of our donors I remember saying, hey, father, I want to help you, but I can't right now. The stocks are so bad and I'm losing money. So we scraped our way over two years and then got that thing filmed.

We did a little bit of that in our couple of movies we made, including Nine Days That Changed the World. You hope you can pull it all together, because you can't start until you're sure you can actually get it done. It's a huge project.

We did a little bit of that in our couple of movies we made, including Nine Days That Changed the World. You hope you can pull it all together, because you can't start until you're sure you can actually get it done. It's a huge project.

It is a huge project, and the people involved in that were marvelous, and one of them was Mike Leonard. I don't remember that name. Mike was with The Today Show for many years. He did the kind of human interest stories feature pieces on Today's Show. And I knew him from my parish in Chicago, and he's the one that linked us to a lot of NBC people around the world and so on. But we were sitting I remember, for episode one, we're filming in the Holy Land and we are in a pizza restaurant in Jerusalem and we're having dinner, and he said, you know, the church has been going through such a time. This is twenty oh eight, so we're just a few years after twenty oh two, and he said, I wonder, you know, this could be a tipping point, maybe we could start moving things back. And so that state, in my mind, that's what we wanted to do, was present the Catholic Church in its truth, its beauty in a way that would be evangelically compelling. And we didn't know when we were making it.

It is a huge project, and the people involved in that were marvelous, and one of them was Mike Leonard. I don't remember that name. Mike was with The Today Show for many years. He did the kind of human interest stories feature pieces on Today's Show. And I knew him from my parish in Chicago, and he's the one that linked us to a lot of NBC people around the world and so on. But we were sitting I remember, for episode one, we're filming in the Holy Land and we are in a pizza restaurant in Jerusalem and we're having dinner, and he said, you know, the church has been going through such a time. This is twenty oh eight, so we're just a few years after twenty oh two, and he said, I wonder, you know, this could be a tipping point, maybe we could start moving things back. And so that state, in my mind, that's what we wanted to do, was present the Catholic Church in its truth, its beauty in a way that would be evangelically compelling. And we didn't know when we were making it.

We had no.

We had no.

Idea what the distribution strategy would be. We had no idea if we could get it widely viewed. And it was PBS came through and then they syndicated it and it went all over the country.

Idea what the distribution strategy would be. We had no idea if we could get it widely viewed. And it was PBS came through and then they syndicated it and it went all over the country.

Well, it's an amazing achievement. And now you have your newest book, The Great Story of Israel, Election, Freedom, Holiness, and I gather that's the first of a two part series.

Well, it's an amazing achievement. And now you have your newest book, The Great Story of Israel, Election, Freedom, Holiness, and I gather that's the first of a two part series.

It is, and that's growing out of this wonderful Word on Fire Bible project. So we've now published two of these. The third one's coming out pretty soon. It's just an exceptionally beautiful, I think presentation of the Bible. We have the biblical text, but then it's surrounded by commentaries. It's a bit like the glosses from the Middle Ages when they would have the text and then the commentary. But we're drawing from the Church Fathers, from a quinas, from John Paul the Second, from Chesterton and Newman and everybody else. And then I've got some commentaries in there too, and then also on the page are beautiful works of art. And so it's just a very holistic approach. And our hope was to draw people that wouldn't normally pick up a Bible and they see small prints in double column pages and lots of footnotes and they say, I'm not going to read that. That this would draw them into the beauty of the Word of God. And the first volume, heck, I think that sold three hundred thousand copies. It was just the Gospels, and then we did the rest of the New Testament, and the third one coming out is the first five books of the Old Testament. So my book there that you referred to, it grew out of that project. So as I'm doing all this commentary in the Bible, it grew into really a book length thing, and that's volume one. I'm looking at roughly half the Old Testament. There we all under the rubric of trying to draw people back to the Bible.

It is, and that's growing out of this wonderful Word on Fire Bible project. So we've now published two of these. The third one's coming out pretty soon. It's just an exceptionally beautiful, I think presentation of the Bible. We have the biblical text, but then it's surrounded by commentaries. It's a bit like the glosses from the Middle Ages when they would have the text and then the commentary. But we're drawing from the Church Fathers, from a quinas, from John Paul the Second, from Chesterton and Newman and everybody else. And then I've got some commentaries in there too, and then also on the page are beautiful works of art. And so it's just a very holistic approach. And our hope was to draw people that wouldn't normally pick up a Bible and they see small prints in double column pages and lots of footnotes and they say, I'm not going to read that. That this would draw them into the beauty of the Word of God. And the first volume, heck, I think that sold three hundred thousand copies. It was just the Gospels, and then we did the rest of the New Testament, and the third one coming out is the first five books of the Old Testament. So my book there that you referred to, it grew out of that project. So as I'm doing all this commentary in the Bible, it grew into really a book length thing, and that's volume one. I'm looking at roughly half the Old Testament. There we all under the rubric of trying to draw people back to the Bible.

When you go back in the in the Middle Ages, there was a lot of effort to use beauty to bring people together. Many of them couldn't read that. They could see the pictures. They could get a feel for the storylines if you will.

When you go back in the in the Middle Ages, there was a lot of effort to use beauty to bring people together. Many of them couldn't read that. They could see the pictures. They could get a feel for the storylines if you will.

Yeah, but see the church I grew up with. I come of age in the seventies. Right. First of all, we dumbed it down. That was a huge mistake. Is a smart tradition, but we dumbed it down. My generation got butterflies and banners Catholicism, and it was a disaster pastorally, because what happens is kids grow up and they have serious questions and they're getting nothing like serious answers to them. The second thing we did wrong in that period is that we uglified Catholicism. Look at the churches built at that time, the seventies and eighties. They're like these empty Bauhause modernist structures and had nothing of the charm of the Romanesque or the Gothic or the ancient basilicas and they became just sort of empty gathering places. Well, dumb down. Uglified Catholicism is not compelling to people. And you know, my generation answered by leaving in droves.

Yeah, but see the church I grew up with. I come of age in the seventies. Right. First of all, we dumbed it down. That was a huge mistake. Is a smart tradition, but we dumbed it down. My generation got butterflies and banners Catholicism, and it was a disaster pastorally, because what happens is kids grow up and they have serious questions and they're getting nothing like serious answers to them. The second thing we did wrong in that period is that we uglified Catholicism. Look at the churches built at that time, the seventies and eighties. They're like these empty Bauhause modernist structures and had nothing of the charm of the Romanesque or the Gothic or the ancient basilicas and they became just sort of empty gathering places. Well, dumb down. Uglified Catholicism is not compelling to people. And you know, my generation answered by leaving in droves.

You know.

You know.

So one of the things I've been animated by is a desire to make it beautiful and to make it smart. And I think those two things are appealing to people. They always happen.

So one of the things I've been animated by is a desire to make it beautiful and to make it smart. And I think those two things are appealing to people. They always happen.

I have a good friend, Liz lev who is a remarkable student of religious art and history, and she says that the Sistine Chapel in Michaelangelo was the Church's answer to Martin Luther, that the effort to say to people that there is a glory, there's an amazing beauty. And of course you visit the Vatican Museum, you're sort of surrounded by it.

I have a good friend, Liz lev who is a remarkable student of religious art and history, and she says that the Sistine Chapel in Michaelangelo was the Church's answer to Martin Luther, that the effort to say to people that there is a glory, there's an amazing beauty. And of course you visit the Vatican Museum, you're sort of surrounded by it.

It's amazing It's a very good point about Luthor because, as you suggest there, he was against what he called the theology of glory and he wanted purely the theology of the Cross. And there's a complex history behind that. But the Catholic Church responded with Michaelangelo, and with Bernini and with Caravaggio, responded with beauty. You do display the glory of God through artistic beauty. And I think one of the signs, one of the clearest signs of corruption, is when we start destroying beautiful things. And we did that at a time of the Reformation, we did it in the ancient Iconoclass period, and honestly, we did it in my lifetime. We destroyed a lot of beautiful things, and that's a sign of corruption. Dumbing down Catholicism and uglifying it are signs of corruption.

It's amazing It's a very good point about Luthor because, as you suggest there, he was against what he called the theology of glory and he wanted purely the theology of the Cross. And there's a complex history behind that. But the Catholic Church responded with Michaelangelo, and with Bernini and with Caravaggio, responded with beauty. You do display the glory of God through artistic beauty. And I think one of the signs, one of the clearest signs of corruption, is when we start destroying beautiful things. And we did that at a time of the Reformation, we did it in the ancient Iconoclass period, and honestly, we did it in my lifetime. We destroyed a lot of beautiful things, and that's a sign of corruption. Dumbing down Catholicism and uglifying it are signs of corruption.

I think that's right. And listen, I think you were one of the people standing firmly for tradition. It's a remarkable thing, and I want to thank you for joining me. I want to wish you a very very merry Christmas and a happy New Year. And I want to encourage our listeners to visit your website. Ad word on Fire dot org, where they can find more of your sermons, articles and books. And I want to thank you personally for joining me on news World.

I think that's right. And listen, I think you were one of the people standing firmly for tradition. It's a remarkable thing, and I want to thank you for joining me. I want to wish you a very very merry Christmas and a happy New Year. And I want to encourage our listeners to visit your website. Ad word on Fire dot org, where they can find more of your sermons, articles and books. And I want to thank you personally for joining me on news World.

Mister speaker, thank you very much. Merry Christmas to you. It was a joy to talk to you today.

Mister speaker, thank you very much. Merry Christmas to you. It was a joy to talk to you today.

Thank you to my guests, Bishop Robert Baron. You can get a link to word on Fire on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newsworld is produced by Gingish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at Gingrish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give us a review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of Newsworld can sign up for my three free weekly columns at gingishthree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.

Thank you to my guests, Bishop Robert Baron. You can get a link to word on Fire on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newsworld is produced by Gingish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at Gingrish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give us a review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of Newsworld can sign up for my three free weekly columns at gingishthree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.