On this episode of Newts World. When you make your living as a portrait photographer, you meet all kinds of interesting people around the world. My guest today has spent time photographing everyone from Vladimir Putin Toungsun Suki for the cover of Time magazine. He's taken portraits for The Rolling Stone, The New York Times Magazine, Vanity Fair, Esquire, g Q, The New Yorker, and George. In two thousand and nine, Platon teamed up with the Human Rights Watch to help them celebrate those who fight for equality and justice in countries suppressed by political forces, which helped contribute to his latest book, The Defenders, Heroes of the Fight for Global human Rights. The Defenders presents five photo essays accompanied by texts documenting these struggles in Burma, Egypt, Russia, the United States, and the Democratic Republic of Congo. The images and The Defenders were taken over the course of fifteen years. Platon's life work is the subject of a Netflix documentary, Abstract The Art of Design. I'm really pleased to welcome my guests for what I think you will find is a fascinating and fun conversation. The world renowned portrait photographer Platon.

On this episode of Newts World. When you make your living as a portrait photographer, you meet all kinds of interesting people around the world. My guest today has spent time photographing everyone from Vladimir Putin Toungsun Suki for the cover of Time magazine. He's taken portraits for The Rolling Stone, The New York Times Magazine, Vanity Fair, Esquire, g Q, The New Yorker, and George. In two thousand and nine, Platon teamed up with the Human Rights Watch to help them celebrate those who fight for equality and justice in countries suppressed by political forces, which helped contribute to his latest book, The Defenders, Heroes of the Fight for Global human Rights. The Defenders presents five photo essays accompanied by texts documenting these struggles in Burma, Egypt, Russia, the United States, and the Democratic Republic of Congo. The images and The Defenders were taken over the course of fifteen years. Platon's life work is the subject of a Netflix documentary, Abstract The Art of Design. I'm really pleased to welcome my guests for what I think you will find is a fascinating and fun conversation. The world renowned portrait photographer Platon.

It's great to speak to you, and my job is always to break down barriers instantly, especially with people who are to be respected because they're a powerful position. So I'm not sure how I should address you, but I do love the word newt, so newt with great pleasure and humility. It's great to speak to you.

It's great to speak to you, and my job is always to break down barriers instantly, especially with people who are to be respected because they're a powerful position. So I'm not sure how I should address you, but I do love the word newt, so newt with great pleasure and humility. It's great to speak to you.

How did you get your start intography?

How did you get your start intography?

Well, firstly, it's the only thing I can do. I'm useless for everything else. But it's not really about photography. It's about connecting with people. Photography is a technical thing, and I have mastered it. It's like a tennis player mastering their technique. But the most important thing is being fascinated by the human condition and being really interested in this idea of breaking down barriers between people and trying to tune in to someone's frequency. It's like an old fashioned radio set and if you turn the dial, sometimes the signals clear. Sometimes there's a lot of static, and you have to really concentrate hard to hear the message. That's what it's like with people. Everyone has their own special, unique frequency, and I've always been fascinated by trying to tune into that and connect with them on a human basic level, and that I have a healthy disregard for power. You could say I'm even immune to it. I see people as people. I'm always respectful. But that sort of democratic look at the world allows me to interact with very powerful people on a human level, and I feel very privileged to be able to do that. But more so, I can interact with people who have been robbed of all power, and I'm also able to talk to them in the same way and share stories and share ideas. So it's a great leveler for me to navigate a path through life.

Well, firstly, it's the only thing I can do. I'm useless for everything else. But it's not really about photography. It's about connecting with people. Photography is a technical thing, and I have mastered it. It's like a tennis player mastering their technique. But the most important thing is being fascinated by the human condition and being really interested in this idea of breaking down barriers between people and trying to tune in to someone's frequency. It's like an old fashioned radio set and if you turn the dial, sometimes the signals clear. Sometimes there's a lot of static, and you have to really concentrate hard to hear the message. That's what it's like with people. Everyone has their own special, unique frequency, and I've always been fascinated by trying to tune into that and connect with them on a human basic level, and that I have a healthy disregard for power. You could say I'm even immune to it. I see people as people. I'm always respectful. But that sort of democratic look at the world allows me to interact with very powerful people on a human level, and I feel very privileged to be able to do that. But more so, I can interact with people who have been robbed of all power, and I'm also able to talk to them in the same way and share stories and share ideas. So it's a great leveler for me to navigate a path through life.

So in the sense of understanding you, the humanness and the art is more significant than the technology.

So in the sense of understanding you, the humanness and the art is more significant than the technology.

Well, the technology is obviously necessary. Any athlete will tell you that their technique their training. Any boxer will tell you that the training is everything. So I'm match fit all the time. There's no doubt about that. I have mastered my art. But the question is you have to know it so well that you no longer think about it, that you're liberated from it. So I'm not thinking about the grammar of a visual image. It's intuitive after a while, and it allows me to put one hundred and fifty percent into concentrating on my subjects character, mood, temperament, what they've gone through that morning just before the shoot. I don't know what it is, but I know it's going to affect them in one way or another. So that high level of concentration, and above all, it's not being judgmental. And I've had to work up that over my career. When I was a young gun, I would go into shoots prejudging someone. Maybe I disagreed with them politically, maybe I disagreed with them morally, and it would cloud my judgment Newt. It would cloud my judgment and stop me seeing things. Powers of observation come alive when you are cure. So I've learned to be more curious as I've got older, and it's made me more powerful as a photographer because I can really see things that so many people miss. So it's a position of humility rather than strength.

Well, the technology is obviously necessary. Any athlete will tell you that their technique their training. Any boxer will tell you that the training is everything. So I'm match fit all the time. There's no doubt about that. I have mastered my art. But the question is you have to know it so well that you no longer think about it, that you're liberated from it. So I'm not thinking about the grammar of a visual image. It's intuitive after a while, and it allows me to put one hundred and fifty percent into concentrating on my subjects character, mood, temperament, what they've gone through that morning just before the shoot. I don't know what it is, but I know it's going to affect them in one way or another. So that high level of concentration, and above all, it's not being judgmental. And I've had to work up that over my career. When I was a young gun, I would go into shoots prejudging someone. Maybe I disagreed with them politically, maybe I disagreed with them morally, and it would cloud my judgment Newt. It would cloud my judgment and stop me seeing things. Powers of observation come alive when you are cure. So I've learned to be more curious as I've got older, and it's made me more powerful as a photographer because I can really see things that so many people miss. So it's a position of humility rather than strength.

Do you find in that sense that you are more accepting of people as you've gotten older, that you're more willing to allow them to be who they are without your judgment? I am.

Do you find in that sense that you are more accepting of people as you've gotten older, that you're more willing to allow them to be who they are without your judgment? I am.

And I think it's also that it's not for me to make a judgment. It's for history to make a judgment. It's for me to document these people's lives and share stories that they shared with me, and I put it back to society. I'm a cultural provocateur. I say, these are the people that shape our times, and I encourage everybody to have a respectful debate about their values. And if you look at the division in our society right now and the resentment between people on all fronts, whether it's religion, whether it's politics, whether it's cultural issues, whether it's gender, whether it's race, it goes on and on forever the list, and I acknowledge there's a lot of pain that people are feeling. You see it coming from the streets. But at the same time, there are powerful forces pulling us apart, and I care deeply that unity is something that we all need to focus on as we enter the next phase in history.

And I think it's also that it's not for me to make a judgment. It's for history to make a judgment. It's for me to document these people's lives and share stories that they shared with me, and I put it back to society. I'm a cultural provocateur. I say, these are the people that shape our times, and I encourage everybody to have a respectful debate about their values. And if you look at the division in our society right now and the resentment between people on all fronts, whether it's religion, whether it's politics, whether it's cultural issues, whether it's gender, whether it's race, it goes on and on forever the list, and I acknowledge there's a lot of pain that people are feeling. You see it coming from the streets. But at the same time, there are powerful forces pulling us apart, and I care deeply that unity is something that we all need to focus on as we enter the next phase in history.

It's fascinating because you photograph more world leaders, including six American presidents, than anyone else ever has. How did you get you to start photographing world leaders?

It's fascinating because you photograph more world leaders, including six American presidents, than anyone else ever has. How did you get you to start photographing world leaders?

I think my first president in the US was Bill Clinton, someone who you're very familiar with, and he was a different type of president and I was a different type of photographer. They said to me at Esquire magazine in those days I was. They called me into their office and they said, right, we're giving you the biggest break we've ever given a young, upstart photographer. It's the most powerful man in the world, the biggest photo shoot in our eighty year history at the magazine. It's a cover story. It's his last official portrait as president before he leaves office, and we're giving it to you. And I said, wow, that's fantastic, and they said, not really, because you're not our first choice. I was a fourth choice, nute, so a humble beginning. But you know, they said to me, whatever you do, don't take those wide angle pictures. We want a nice, elegant portrait of our president, hand on the chin, looking very noble. And I remember they gave me eight minutes to do the shoot. They shut down a two hundred room hotel for security, and I spent seven and a half minutes doing the pictures I promised I would do. And then I had a moment. And it was a moment where I talked to myself and time stood still. And I'm sure you've had those moments in your life where you say to yourself, come on, let's be honest. I've honestly, I felt a bit of an impostor at that moment. I felt I'm standing in front of one of the most powerful men in the world, maybe the most powerful man, and this is Fluke. How did I get here? I'll never get another chance again. This is my one chance, so I might as well take the picture I really want to take and be human. So to get his attention, I shouted out, mister president, will you show me the love? And there was silence in the room. I think it was his chief of staff who stepped forward and said, mister President, whatever you do, do not show him the love. Perhaps we've had enough love in this administration, mister president. But then Clinton sort of got what I was trying to do, and he said, I get it. I get it. He put his hands on his knee and gave me the charisma. And I caught it on film, and I thought the magazine would be furious with me because I broke the rules. I put on the wide angle lens. It's not a normal type of presidential picture. It's a human picture about a man's capacity to connect with people. You could even say seduce people. I know that's a loaded thing to say. Especially with you. But it's the truth. He had this giant amount of charisma and that made him very powerful as a political figure. But you could also say it was his flaw as well. So I caught all that on film. But then of course when it comes out, then the American establishment, especially in the press, were kind of horrified by the picture that they called it the crotch shot, and all these people started to read in this sexuality into the picture, which honestly, I was not thinking about that the time I took it one five hundredth of a second my pictures. But when I get it right newt it works for everyone, for supporters and critics. My picture of Putin, I mean, I've been told Putin loves that picture because it shows him as a tough nationalist that he is. But the opposition to Putin the human rights community also love that picture because it gave them a banner to show everything that they believe is wrong with power in Russia. Now it's the same picture, and I know that Putin had it on his wall. I was told that he had it on his wall in his office. But I also know that Pussy Riot, for instance, who are friends of mine, now they set fire to that picture in demonstrations, and if you go online, you'll see my portrait has been doctored thousands of times in demonstrations, photo shopping, horns onto him and rouge onto his cheeks, or messing with his you know, identity, so much so that Putin has now issued a decree. I believe that anyone who's caught circulating my portrait of him in connection with human rights will go to jail. And that picture is now called extremist material. It's the same picture that he actually loves.

I think my first president in the US was Bill Clinton, someone who you're very familiar with, and he was a different type of president and I was a different type of photographer. They said to me at Esquire magazine in those days I was. They called me into their office and they said, right, we're giving you the biggest break we've ever given a young, upstart photographer. It's the most powerful man in the world, the biggest photo shoot in our eighty year history at the magazine. It's a cover story. It's his last official portrait as president before he leaves office, and we're giving it to you. And I said, wow, that's fantastic, and they said, not really, because you're not our first choice. I was a fourth choice, nute, so a humble beginning. But you know, they said to me, whatever you do, don't take those wide angle pictures. We want a nice, elegant portrait of our president, hand on the chin, looking very noble. And I remember they gave me eight minutes to do the shoot. They shut down a two hundred room hotel for security, and I spent seven and a half minutes doing the pictures I promised I would do. And then I had a moment. And it was a moment where I talked to myself and time stood still. And I'm sure you've had those moments in your life where you say to yourself, come on, let's be honest. I've honestly, I felt a bit of an impostor at that moment. I felt I'm standing in front of one of the most powerful men in the world, maybe the most powerful man, and this is Fluke. How did I get here? I'll never get another chance again. This is my one chance, so I might as well take the picture I really want to take and be human. So to get his attention, I shouted out, mister president, will you show me the love? And there was silence in the room. I think it was his chief of staff who stepped forward and said, mister President, whatever you do, do not show him the love. Perhaps we've had enough love in this administration, mister president. But then Clinton sort of got what I was trying to do, and he said, I get it. I get it. He put his hands on his knee and gave me the charisma. And I caught it on film, and I thought the magazine would be furious with me because I broke the rules. I put on the wide angle lens. It's not a normal type of presidential picture. It's a human picture about a man's capacity to connect with people. You could even say seduce people. I know that's a loaded thing to say. Especially with you. But it's the truth. He had this giant amount of charisma and that made him very powerful as a political figure. But you could also say it was his flaw as well. So I caught all that on film. But then of course when it comes out, then the American establishment, especially in the press, were kind of horrified by the picture that they called it the crotch shot, and all these people started to read in this sexuality into the picture, which honestly, I was not thinking about that the time I took it one five hundredth of a second my pictures. But when I get it right newt it works for everyone, for supporters and critics. My picture of Putin, I mean, I've been told Putin loves that picture because it shows him as a tough nationalist that he is. But the opposition to Putin the human rights community also love that picture because it gave them a banner to show everything that they believe is wrong with power in Russia. Now it's the same picture, and I know that Putin had it on his wall. I was told that he had it on his wall in his office. But I also know that Pussy Riot, for instance, who are friends of mine, now they set fire to that picture in demonstrations, and if you go online, you'll see my portrait has been doctored thousands of times in demonstrations, photo shopping, horns onto him and rouge onto his cheeks, or messing with his you know, identity, so much so that Putin has now issued a decree. I believe that anyone who's caught circulating my portrait of him in connection with human rights will go to jail. And that picture is now called extremist material. It's the same picture that he actually loves.

What was he like to work with?

What was he like to work with?

You know again, power And you're very familiar with this. You are part of the power establishment, you still are. You understand this language very very well, and I've been around it long enough to also understand it. But I read it from maybe a different point of view because I have no power myself at all, so I'm able to stand back and watch this circus play out. I was informed that the moment in history would happen in the halls of the Kremlin. So one cold day in December, I was driven through the streets of Moscow by a former KGB BMW agent driving the car. We get to the gates Suddenly he does a hard turn and speeds the car up out of the streets of Moscow into a dark, bleak, Gothic forest. I mean, you get into this forest and you have no idea what's about to happen to you. And then I arrive at very sinister building, his private residence, his private dasher, in the middle of this forest, and it's surrounded by a two story high security wall with snipers all the way along the top. And at gunpoint I'm asked to open up my cameras in the snow and show them what's inside the lenses for security reasons. And then at gunpoint I'm led into the building. So by the time you get into the building and then you wait for hours and hours in this room, I mean, your confidence is diminished extremely. I believe it's not by accident. I mean, you know, all the White House does this to people too, not as extreme, but there are versions of this. So when he walks in the room, he's got a giant entourage. He's got two translators, a group of advisers, and a gang of bodyguards. And I nervously said to him, you know, mister President, before I capture this moment, in history. I would love to ask you a humble question, I said. My mom and dad brought me up listening to the music of the Beatles, and I would like to know if you ever listened to the Beatles. So they translate in his ear. There's some confusing looks amongst the entourage, and then his mood drops and in Russian he orders the two translators and all his advisers out of the room immediately. The bodyguards stay. And then he turns to me and in perfect English, Putin says, I love the Beatles. I said, I didn't know you spoke English. He said, I speak perfect English. So I said, wow, okay, Well, in that case, who's your favorite beatle? He said, Paul, I said, interesting, what's your favorite song? Is it? Back in the USSR He did not like that at all. Like his bodyguards, who spoke a bit of English, one of them sort of put his head in his hand, but then put In turn to me again and he said, no, my favorite song is Yesterday. Think about it. And I thought about it for many years since I took that picture. And what I think he was doing is sending me a subliminal message about the old days of power and authority of the Soviet Union through the lyrics of a Paul McCartney song, and that connection allowed me in and I ended up an inch and a half away from his nose. I could feel his breath on my hand as I focused the lens, and that's how I got what I felt was the truth that day that my picture is the face of power and authority in Russia.

You know again, power And you're very familiar with this. You are part of the power establishment, you still are. You understand this language very very well, and I've been around it long enough to also understand it. But I read it from maybe a different point of view because I have no power myself at all, so I'm able to stand back and watch this circus play out. I was informed that the moment in history would happen in the halls of the Kremlin. So one cold day in December, I was driven through the streets of Moscow by a former KGB BMW agent driving the car. We get to the gates Suddenly he does a hard turn and speeds the car up out of the streets of Moscow into a dark, bleak, Gothic forest. I mean, you get into this forest and you have no idea what's about to happen to you. And then I arrive at very sinister building, his private residence, his private dasher, in the middle of this forest, and it's surrounded by a two story high security wall with snipers all the way along the top. And at gunpoint I'm asked to open up my cameras in the snow and show them what's inside the lenses for security reasons. And then at gunpoint I'm led into the building. So by the time you get into the building and then you wait for hours and hours in this room, I mean, your confidence is diminished extremely. I believe it's not by accident. I mean, you know, all the White House does this to people too, not as extreme, but there are versions of this. So when he walks in the room, he's got a giant entourage. He's got two translators, a group of advisers, and a gang of bodyguards. And I nervously said to him, you know, mister President, before I capture this moment, in history. I would love to ask you a humble question, I said. My mom and dad brought me up listening to the music of the Beatles, and I would like to know if you ever listened to the Beatles. So they translate in his ear. There's some confusing looks amongst the entourage, and then his mood drops and in Russian he orders the two translators and all his advisers out of the room immediately. The bodyguards stay. And then he turns to me and in perfect English, Putin says, I love the Beatles. I said, I didn't know you spoke English. He said, I speak perfect English. So I said, wow, okay, Well, in that case, who's your favorite beatle? He said, Paul, I said, interesting, what's your favorite song? Is it? Back in the USSR He did not like that at all. Like his bodyguards, who spoke a bit of English, one of them sort of put his head in his hand, but then put In turn to me again and he said, no, my favorite song is Yesterday. Think about it. And I thought about it for many years since I took that picture. And what I think he was doing is sending me a subliminal message about the old days of power and authority of the Soviet Union through the lyrics of a Paul McCartney song, and that connection allowed me in and I ended up an inch and a half away from his nose. I could feel his breath on my hand as I focused the lens, and that's how I got what I felt was the truth that day that my picture is the face of power and authority in Russia.

There's no question as a brilliant and I think very revealing picture of somebody who's disciplined and organized. Yeah, and all too often underestimated in the West. They don't appreciate how methodical he is.

There's no question as a brilliant and I think very revealing picture of somebody who's disciplined and organized. Yeah, and all too often underestimated in the West. They don't appreciate how methodical he is.

Yeah, that's absolutely true, and quite honestly, very few people have ever said that. Back to me from the American side, you're one of the few people who said that he's a strategist. He's calm, he's calculating. This rambo image that was cultivated of hunting with your shirt off in the forest. I mean that was given to us to chew on. The reality is I mean, he is a tough guy. He does project strength, but he also is a master strategist and he's formidable, and every move he makes I believe he's planned this. He's not reckless, which may sound bizarre at the moment in history right now, but I believe he has a plan and he's moving five steps ahead, and so far he's out maneuvered everybody. It seems. That's the appearance we get. He's not to be underestimated.

Yeah, that's absolutely true, and quite honestly, very few people have ever said that. Back to me from the American side, you're one of the few people who said that he's a strategist. He's calm, he's calculating. This rambo image that was cultivated of hunting with your shirt off in the forest. I mean that was given to us to chew on. The reality is I mean, he is a tough guy. He does project strength, but he also is a master strategist and he's formidable, and every move he makes I believe he's planned this. He's not reckless, which may sound bizarre at the moment in history right now, but I believe he has a plan and he's moving five steps ahead, and so far he's out maneuvered everybody. It seems. That's the appearance we get. He's not to be underestimated.

Yeah, I think that's right. I think he was given very bad advice about how rapidly they could beat Ukraine, and they operated based on the advice, which also, by the way, was the estimate of the American Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, so that Ukraine would collapse and they didn't. But I think that there's a toughness to put in that you have to be very careful about.

Yeah, I think that's right. I think he was given very bad advice about how rapidly they could beat Ukraine, and they operated based on the advice, which also, by the way, was the estimate of the American Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, so that Ukraine would collapse and they didn't. But I think that there's a toughness to put in that you have to be very careful about.

And also one last thing, there's a commitment and never ending commitment. And this is something that Winston Churchill always would say that you know your opponent also believes they will win, and we can't seem to come to terms with that that Putin also believes he will win. He has a stake in the game, and he's prepared to go as far as he believes he will go. We don't know how far that is. That's the game of chicken that everyone plays right now. But he believes he will win this, and that's something that we need to come to terms with that. It's not a question of just assuming that he's lost his mind, he's reckless, maybe his health isn't great, all these things that we keep hearing circulating in our press.

And also one last thing, there's a commitment and never ending commitment. And this is something that Winston Churchill always would say that you know your opponent also believes they will win, and we can't seem to come to terms with that that Putin also believes he will win. He has a stake in the game, and he's prepared to go as far as he believes he will go. We don't know how far that is. That's the game of chicken that everyone plays right now. But he believes he will win this, and that's something that we need to come to terms with that. It's not a question of just assuming that he's lost his mind, he's reckless, maybe his health isn't great, all these things that we keep hearing circulating in our press.

I think he's a very serious competitor and that you oh his professionalism a very high level of respect in dealing with them. One of your most memorable photo sessions was Muhammad Ali, which is pretty dramatically different from Putin. What was your sense of being with this extraordinary person who'd become a worldwide figure.

I think he's a very serious competitor and that you oh his professionalism a very high level of respect in dealing with them. One of your most memorable photo sessions was Muhammad Ali, which is pretty dramatically different from Putin. What was your sense of being with this extraordinary person who'd become a worldwide figure.

I mean, it's fun because Putin right now you could say is the most famous man in the world. Perhaps, and there was a time when Arli was the most famous man in the world. But when I photographed him, he was ravaged by Parkinson's disease. He was very frail. I had the great privilege to go to his house. He invited me there to do the pictures. I was doing a photo essay honoring all the heroes of the civil rights movement at the time, so he was very much the central part of that story for me. I remember he walked into the room. He actually shuffled into the room. He's a big guy, but even though his body was weak, there was this power that I felt when he shuffled in the room. I mean, the presence of this man is unbelievable. Even with this terrible condition Parkinson's disease, he had lost control practically of his once most powerful arms and fists. But when I draped the American flag over his shoulders, something happened and he was compelled, perhaps one of the last times, to try and hold up his fists in that classic defiant boxing pose for me. And when you look at the picture, it looks defiant, elegant, he looks determined. But if you were in the room, newte you would have seen a frail, elderly gentleman struggling so hard to try and keep his hands up in that position just for a second. And I remember his wife got very emotional who was watching, because she hadn't seen him to be able to sort of project this defiance in a while physically. At that point I put down the camera. I was so moved, and I said, Mohammed, you are the greatest teach me to be great? How can my generation be as great as your generation had? To be during the Civil rights era, and he couldn't speak very well because of the condition, so I had to get really close to him, and he whispered something in my ear and he said, I have a confession to make. What is it? I said, and he said I wasn't as great as I said I was. Holy shit, I said, that's the biggest confession I ever heard in my life. The whole world knows you as a LEI the greatest. But then he gave me this powerful look, squinted his eyes and he says, you misunderstand me. I'll tell you what was great, and it wasn't me. It was that people saw themselves in my struggle, that people saw themselves in my story. And then he turned it to me. And now today I've got the great honor to share it with you and your listeners to say this, if we can get people to see themselves in the stories that we put forward and share, then we have a chance of achieving greatness. But that greatness is never us personally. It's something much bigger, called bridge building. And a light bulb went off in my brain because it was another confirmation along my mad journey of life. There's another reminder that what we have to try and do is to create bridges so that people can cross and have a respectful conversation. And we can't hope for unity. We can't assume everyone's going to be uniform than not. Everyone is different. Everyone is entitled to have a different point of view and a different outlook. That's a fact. So what we then have to do to come together is to embrace our differences and actually think of each other not as strangers, but as creative partners. That's when things start to get really interesting, that we work together because we're different. And I think that's really interesting.

I mean, it's fun because Putin right now you could say is the most famous man in the world. Perhaps, and there was a time when Arli was the most famous man in the world. But when I photographed him, he was ravaged by Parkinson's disease. He was very frail. I had the great privilege to go to his house. He invited me there to do the pictures. I was doing a photo essay honoring all the heroes of the civil rights movement at the time, so he was very much the central part of that story for me. I remember he walked into the room. He actually shuffled into the room. He's a big guy, but even though his body was weak, there was this power that I felt when he shuffled in the room. I mean, the presence of this man is unbelievable. Even with this terrible condition Parkinson's disease, he had lost control practically of his once most powerful arms and fists. But when I draped the American flag over his shoulders, something happened and he was compelled, perhaps one of the last times, to try and hold up his fists in that classic defiant boxing pose for me. And when you look at the picture, it looks defiant, elegant, he looks determined. But if you were in the room, newte you would have seen a frail, elderly gentleman struggling so hard to try and keep his hands up in that position just for a second. And I remember his wife got very emotional who was watching, because she hadn't seen him to be able to sort of project this defiance in a while physically. At that point I put down the camera. I was so moved, and I said, Mohammed, you are the greatest teach me to be great? How can my generation be as great as your generation had? To be during the Civil rights era, and he couldn't speak very well because of the condition, so I had to get really close to him, and he whispered something in my ear and he said, I have a confession to make. What is it? I said, and he said I wasn't as great as I said I was. Holy shit, I said, that's the biggest confession I ever heard in my life. The whole world knows you as a LEI the greatest. But then he gave me this powerful look, squinted his eyes and he says, you misunderstand me. I'll tell you what was great, and it wasn't me. It was that people saw themselves in my struggle, that people saw themselves in my story. And then he turned it to me. And now today I've got the great honor to share it with you and your listeners to say this, if we can get people to see themselves in the stories that we put forward and share, then we have a chance of achieving greatness. But that greatness is never us personally. It's something much bigger, called bridge building. And a light bulb went off in my brain because it was another confirmation along my mad journey of life. There's another reminder that what we have to try and do is to create bridges so that people can cross and have a respectful conversation. And we can't hope for unity. We can't assume everyone's going to be uniform than not. Everyone is different. Everyone is entitled to have a different point of view and a different outlook. That's a fact. So what we then have to do to come together is to embrace our differences and actually think of each other not as strangers, but as creative partners. That's when things start to get really interesting, that we work together because we're different. And I think that's really interesting.

That's fascinating, though significantly different personality. Thirteen years before he became president, you photographed Donald Trump, which had to have been different than either Putin or Mohammed Atli.

That's fascinating, though significantly different personality. Thirteen years before he became president, you photographed Donald Trump, which had to have been different than either Putin or Mohammed Atli.

But everyone's different, and that's the beautiful thing. Like a human rights defender or an immigrant who's living in the shadows of society, they sit on this little apple box that all the world leaders sit on. It's a painted white box covered in scratches and dense and Gadaffi sat on it, Putin sat on it, six US president sat on it. And when an immigrant or a homeless person sits on it. Complete democracy, no drapes, no throne like chair, no evidence of power for the powerful, and no evidence of oppression to the weak. It's a democratic, neutral space for people to sit on and express their humanity. To me. And when Donald Trump came into the room, I photographed him in Trump Tower, and I have to say he was very charming. He was very charismatic. He had a great sense of humor. I said to him, Donald, I want you to look straight into the camera in a very balanced, symmetrical way. And he said, oh no, no, no, no, that's not how we do this. So I said, well, what do you mean, how do we do it? And then he turned sideways and he pointed to his cheek and he said, this is my best side. Now, listen, newte Of all the politicians I've had the privilege to work with, not one has ever said this is my best side. Take it. On the contrary, everyone is normally a little anxious that I might accidentally catch their worst side. And what does it tell us about Donald Trump? I mean it tells me that, despite his battles with the media, I think he loves the media. I think he thinks of the media as his greatest instrument, and it's sometimes even a weapon, a political weapon. So I said to him, Donald, let's be human together. I said, I followed your career for many years. No one doubts it's an extraordinary career path you've had. But there's always something about you. There's always an air of tension and controversy about things you say and do in public. And I'm sure it's intentional on your part, but it feels like you're in the middle of an emotional storm. And on a personal level, I couldn't live with that constant anxiety myself. It would freak me out. How do you weather the storm? And he calmly looked at me and he said, I am the storm. I had those words ringing out through the elections, and.

But everyone's different, and that's the beautiful thing. Like a human rights defender or an immigrant who's living in the shadows of society, they sit on this little apple box that all the world leaders sit on. It's a painted white box covered in scratches and dense and Gadaffi sat on it, Putin sat on it, six US president sat on it. And when an immigrant or a homeless person sits on it. Complete democracy, no drapes, no throne like chair, no evidence of power for the powerful, and no evidence of oppression to the weak. It's a democratic, neutral space for people to sit on and express their humanity. To me. And when Donald Trump came into the room, I photographed him in Trump Tower, and I have to say he was very charming. He was very charismatic. He had a great sense of humor. I said to him, Donald, I want you to look straight into the camera in a very balanced, symmetrical way. And he said, oh no, no, no, no, that's not how we do this. So I said, well, what do you mean, how do we do it? And then he turned sideways and he pointed to his cheek and he said, this is my best side. Now, listen, newte Of all the politicians I've had the privilege to work with, not one has ever said this is my best side. Take it. On the contrary, everyone is normally a little anxious that I might accidentally catch their worst side. And what does it tell us about Donald Trump? I mean it tells me that, despite his battles with the media, I think he loves the media. I think he thinks of the media as his greatest instrument, and it's sometimes even a weapon, a political weapon. So I said to him, Donald, let's be human together. I said, I followed your career for many years. No one doubts it's an extraordinary career path you've had. But there's always something about you. There's always an air of tension and controversy about things you say and do in public. And I'm sure it's intentional on your part, but it feels like you're in the middle of an emotional storm. And on a personal level, I couldn't live with that constant anxiety myself. It would freak me out. How do you weather the storm? And he calmly looked at me and he said, I am the storm. I had those words ringing out through the elections, and.

As we talk today, he is the storm.

As we talk today, he is the storm.

Nothing's changed who There's only one person who navigates perfectly through the storm, and that's the creator of the storm. And again he is not to be underestimated. He's in tune with something he understands, people power. And I keep seeing members of the left side of politics try many strategies to outsmart him. But it's extraordinary how he's still here. He's still dominating the rhythm of American politics, and he is formidable and not to be underestimated by any means.

Nothing's changed who There's only one person who navigates perfectly through the storm, and that's the creator of the storm. And again he is not to be underestimated. He's in tune with something he understands, people power. And I keep seeing members of the left side of politics try many strategies to outsmart him. But it's extraordinary how he's still here. He's still dominating the rhythm of American politics, and he is formidable and not to be underestimated by any means.

You know, if I might. Tim Russert was the last person to interview Reagan while Reagan was in the office, and he said, President Reagan, what do you think is the one thing that you had that no other president had? And he said, Reagan sat there for am it and find He said, you know, I think I'm probably the only president who knows what it's like to be photographed from every angle, because of course there's a movie star. And Russer said he suddenly realized that Reagan had never once been casual. He was just really good at playing casual. Yeah.

You know, if I might. Tim Russert was the last person to interview Reagan while Reagan was in the office, and he said, President Reagan, what do you think is the one thing that you had that no other president had? And he said, Reagan sat there for am it and find He said, you know, I think I'm probably the only president who knows what it's like to be photographed from every angle, because of course there's a movie star. And Russer said he suddenly realized that Reagan had never once been casual. He was just really good at playing casual. Yeah.

And with that comparison, then you could also say that Trump had his TV show and he became very good with the cameras. He knows what gives good TV. He knows how to capture your attention with just a look. And in today's political arena, that's a high skill level. That's at all.

And with that comparison, then you could also say that Trump had his TV show and he became very good with the cameras. He knows what gives good TV. He knows how to capture your attention with just a look. And in today's political arena, that's a high skill level. That's at all.

When he was first emerging as a candidate, I would try to tell normal American reporters that thirteen years of doing the Apprentice represented a skill level of using TV and understanding your audience. I said, you know, if The Apprentice had come on PBS right after Dalton Abbey, you all would have understood it. But because it was on commercial TV, none of you'd ever seen it, and you had no idea how good he was.

When he was first emerging as a candidate, I would try to tell normal American reporters that thirteen years of doing the Apprentice represented a skill level of using TV and understanding your audience. I said, you know, if The Apprentice had come on PBS right after Dalton Abbey, you all would have understood it. But because it was on commercial TV, none of you'd ever seen it, and you had no idea how good he was.

But the people watched it.

But the people watched it.

They did.

They did.

The people watched it, and they knew and he knew them, and they knew him. Yes, And I think there's a disconnect with his political opponents. They can't It seems to me this I'm just an observation here, but they can't seem to find a way to beat him.

The people watched it, and they knew and he knew them, and they knew him. Yes, And I think there's a disconnect with his political opponents. They can't It seems to me this I'm just an observation here, but they can't seem to find a way to beat him.

He understands how to dance, and he has about half the country dancing with him. And I tell people he's not a candidate, he's the leader of a movement, and they're all dancing together. I have to ask you one set up question. The very famous photographer who got the picture of Churchill that scene where he cannot get Churchill to look angry, and so he finally takes away his cigar. The instant after that he gets the shot he wants.

He understands how to dance, and he has about half the country dancing with him. And I tell people he's not a candidate, he's the leader of a movement, and they're all dancing together. I have to ask you one set up question. The very famous photographer who got the picture of Churchill that scene where he cannot get Churchill to look angry, and so he finally takes away his cigar. The instant after that he gets the shot he wants.

It's amazing story. Churchill had just addressed the Canadian government, desperately trying to rally everybody during the vulnerable time in the Second World War, and Churchill goes backstage just after his speech. In the picture, he's actually got the speech rolled up on a piece of paper in his pocket of his jacket, you can see it. And he walks in with a cigar and he wasn't expecting to be photographed, so he sort of walks in and says, what's going on here? And carsh says, please, this is a historic moment for us in Canada. Would you sit for me? So he stands there, lights his cigar and he's puffing away, and carsh goes up to him and he says, permit me, sir, and he just plucks it out of his mouth and then rushes behind. And because he had his back to him as he's rushing to the camera, he couldn't see Churchill's response, And as he looks through the lens he sees this sort of the Churchillian tough man giving him this stern look, how dare you? But I quite like it at the same time, And that's history. And honestly, newte people sometimes ask me, if you could have taken a picture in history, what one are you most jealous of? It's that picture for me. It's an amazing picture, and it's all down to luck and this accidental human interaction. But it's evidence that when a photographer and a subject can sort of create a spark together, that spark becomes a symbol of something and history may change after that picture's taken, but a good picture lasts forever. Even as history changes, we still see something in that person's eyes, whether they're a villain or a hero.

It's amazing story. Churchill had just addressed the Canadian government, desperately trying to rally everybody during the vulnerable time in the Second World War, and Churchill goes backstage just after his speech. In the picture, he's actually got the speech rolled up on a piece of paper in his pocket of his jacket, you can see it. And he walks in with a cigar and he wasn't expecting to be photographed, so he sort of walks in and says, what's going on here? And carsh says, please, this is a historic moment for us in Canada. Would you sit for me? So he stands there, lights his cigar and he's puffing away, and carsh goes up to him and he says, permit me, sir, and he just plucks it out of his mouth and then rushes behind. And because he had his back to him as he's rushing to the camera, he couldn't see Churchill's response, And as he looks through the lens he sees this sort of the Churchillian tough man giving him this stern look, how dare you? But I quite like it at the same time, And that's history. And honestly, newte people sometimes ask me, if you could have taken a picture in history, what one are you most jealous of? It's that picture for me. It's an amazing picture, and it's all down to luck and this accidental human interaction. But it's evidence that when a photographer and a subject can sort of create a spark together, that spark becomes a symbol of something and history may change after that picture's taken, but a good picture lasts forever. Even as history changes, we still see something in that person's eyes, whether they're a villain or a hero.

Along that line, it's not just famous people or heroic people, but you moved into taking some extraordinary human pictures. Can you tell a little bit about the story of the little girl wearing the free my Dad t shirt?

Along that line, it's not just famous people or heroic people, but you moved into taking some extraordinary human pictures. Can you tell a little bit about the story of the little girl wearing the free my Dad t shirt?

Yeah, I was covering immigration in America. If I could give you a background. This is during Obama's era, right bang in the middle of his two terms, and I was told by many people on Capitol Hill that that was not a priority of the government. Immigration and even members of the press informed me that it's also not a top story. But when I started covering the story myself crossing the border, I started to see a crisis emerging on the ground. I saw families torn apart, I saw soaring deaths at the border, and I thought to myself there's a crisis brewing here, and if no one addresses it and tries to deal with it, or even debate it or discuss it, then someone is soon going to come along and this becomes political currency for the next generation of leaders. And that's exactly what happened, and it gave Trump a great opportunity, I think, to say, this is a crisis and we are not dealing with it. So I went to an immigration march for immigrants' rights. And again, my work is never to take political sides. Whether I'm photographing powerful politicians or people on the street. My job is to try and be curious, tune into people's character, and present images that provoke a debate. It's the debate that's important, and it's not winning the debate. It's having the debate that's important. And I know that's something you care about too. So I saw this mother marching with lots of mothers and children and family, and they're all singing songs and waving flags. And this mother was marching with her three year old little daughter called Evelyn. Evelyn had a T shirt, homemade T shirt that had free my Dad painted on it. Evelyn was a US citizen, her mother was too. Her father was not. He was caught without the proper paperwork and was deported. This family is now facing a very uncertain future. They've lost the breadwinner, the love of a husband, and a father. Very vulnerable. So I went up to the mother and I said, your little girl looks amazing and the T shirt is a very powerful message. Do you mind if I photograph her? The mother kindly agreed. But when little Evelyn, who was three, I think, I said, saw my cameras, my assistants, my lighting set up on the wall by the side of the street, she got spooked and she hid behind her mum's legs. And that's not the picture I wanted to take. That's not the little girl who was empowered singing songs a few seconds ago that I saw. I suddenly saw a frightened child. So to earn the little girl's trust, I had to play balloons with her for five hours. Eventually, the little girl points to me and she says, picture, and she was ready. I learned her trust. I took a picture that was now empowered. If you look at the little girl's clenched fist, she's still holding a shriveled up balloon in her hand that you can barely see. I turned to the mother and I said, I think I've taken one of the most important pictures of my life because with this picture, I think we can bring some humanity back to the data and humanize this crisis, so all our politicians from all political sides can have a proper debate about what is the right or wrong thing to do here. The mother then turns to a daughter and she says, the photographer is very happy you did good. And then Evelyn says, Mummy, if I did so good, does that mean Daddy can come home.

Yeah, I was covering immigration in America. If I could give you a background. This is during Obama's era, right bang in the middle of his two terms, and I was told by many people on Capitol Hill that that was not a priority of the government. Immigration and even members of the press informed me that it's also not a top story. But when I started covering the story myself crossing the border, I started to see a crisis emerging on the ground. I saw families torn apart, I saw soaring deaths at the border, and I thought to myself there's a crisis brewing here, and if no one addresses it and tries to deal with it, or even debate it or discuss it, then someone is soon going to come along and this becomes political currency for the next generation of leaders. And that's exactly what happened, and it gave Trump a great opportunity, I think, to say, this is a crisis and we are not dealing with it. So I went to an immigration march for immigrants' rights. And again, my work is never to take political sides. Whether I'm photographing powerful politicians or people on the street. My job is to try and be curious, tune into people's character, and present images that provoke a debate. It's the debate that's important, and it's not winning the debate. It's having the debate that's important. And I know that's something you care about too. So I saw this mother marching with lots of mothers and children and family, and they're all singing songs and waving flags. And this mother was marching with her three year old little daughter called Evelyn. Evelyn had a T shirt, homemade T shirt that had free my Dad painted on it. Evelyn was a US citizen, her mother was too. Her father was not. He was caught without the proper paperwork and was deported. This family is now facing a very uncertain future. They've lost the breadwinner, the love of a husband, and a father. Very vulnerable. So I went up to the mother and I said, your little girl looks amazing and the T shirt is a very powerful message. Do you mind if I photograph her? The mother kindly agreed. But when little Evelyn, who was three, I think, I said, saw my cameras, my assistants, my lighting set up on the wall by the side of the street, she got spooked and she hid behind her mum's legs. And that's not the picture I wanted to take. That's not the little girl who was empowered singing songs a few seconds ago that I saw. I suddenly saw a frightened child. So to earn the little girl's trust, I had to play balloons with her for five hours. Eventually, the little girl points to me and she says, picture, and she was ready. I learned her trust. I took a picture that was now empowered. If you look at the little girl's clenched fist, she's still holding a shriveled up balloon in her hand that you can barely see. I turned to the mother and I said, I think I've taken one of the most important pictures of my life because with this picture, I think we can bring some humanity back to the data and humanize this crisis, so all our politicians from all political sides can have a proper debate about what is the right or wrong thing to do here. The mother then turns to a daughter and she says, the photographer is very happy you did good. And then Evelyn says, Mummy, if I did so good, does that mean Daddy can come home.

Now.

Now.

That reminded that Evelyn is a little girl. She might be our child, she might be our grandchild. There's something deeply human about the way a child sees the world. We're seeing children put in vulnerable positions all around the world in such troubled regions. We're seeing it now in Gaza. We see it all the time. And while everyone is trying to measure pain as data and use it as political currency, I think it's really important to rehumanize the data. And whenever we've dehumanized people in the past, look at the pages of history that we've stained. But when people are real people that we see ourselves in. Just like Muhammad Ali said, then it's a different discussion. It allows us to debate. And I don't think one side has an advantage if we humanize people. I think it's somewhere in the middle. The advantages to politicians happen when the humanity is stripped. I believe in people power, and I think that real power is actually not authority but responsibility. And I no longer look at political leaders as Wow, this is so cool. I'm in the room with this powerful person. I am now looking into their eyes seeing you are responsible for so many people, and I hope you carry that responsibility well on your shoulders, because that's a heavy weight to carry.

That reminded that Evelyn is a little girl. She might be our child, she might be our grandchild. There's something deeply human about the way a child sees the world. We're seeing children put in vulnerable positions all around the world in such troubled regions. We're seeing it now in Gaza. We see it all the time. And while everyone is trying to measure pain as data and use it as political currency, I think it's really important to rehumanize the data. And whenever we've dehumanized people in the past, look at the pages of history that we've stained. But when people are real people that we see ourselves in. Just like Muhammad Ali said, then it's a different discussion. It allows us to debate. And I don't think one side has an advantage if we humanize people. I think it's somewhere in the middle. The advantages to politicians happen when the humanity is stripped. I believe in people power, and I think that real power is actually not authority but responsibility. And I no longer look at political leaders as Wow, this is so cool. I'm in the room with this powerful person. I am now looking into their eyes seeing you are responsible for so many people, and I hope you carry that responsibility well on your shoulders, because that's a heavy weight to carry.

You made a huge transition in a sense when you decided to work with Human Rights Watch and to go around and film the face of pain and the face of powerlessness and the face of oppression. That added to a bit of big decision, because that was a huge transition from going to nice rooms to take pictures of powerful people with the campaign nearby everything else. I mean, what led you to that decision?

You made a huge transition in a sense when you decided to work with Human Rights Watch and to go around and film the face of pain and the face of powerlessness and the face of oppression. That added to a bit of big decision, because that was a huge transition from going to nice rooms to take pictures of powerful people with the campaign nearby everything else. I mean, what led you to that decision?

Human Rights Watch came to my office just after I'd photographed ourli and I'd worked with the Little Rot Nine, for instance, many great members of the civil rights community. And they said, we have a problem. We have all this data, all this research, but no one seems interested in the media in politics. We can't seem to get into people's hearts. And they said, maybe we need to change our plans, maybe we need to change the narrative. I've always believed that guilt doesn't work. Accusation political accusation doesn't work when you're trying to persuade people to respect human rights. And I don't believe one side of the political oile owns the banner of human rights. I think it's something that is above all political ideology. So they said, there's a forgotten country called burmavaged by years of civil war and a brutal military dictatorship. And if you fight for freedom in Burma, you're either exiled, tortured, imprisoned, or killed. There's very little other options. And they said, we would like to send you to a remote outpost at the Thai Burma border to photograph a community of exiles. And I said, well, how much will I get And they said no money. I said, ah, I said, is it dangerous? And they said yes, it's dangerous. I said how long is it going to take? And they said months, maybe a year to do this full project. I had an office in New York. My wife had just had a baby. She was very vulnerable. But I thought about what Arlie said, so I said, all right, I'll do it. So we went. It's a terrible journey, like long flight, then eleven hour car journey into the mountains and we got there to set up our first shoot straight from travel. So we were all jet lagged and tired, and we went to a community center put together by former political prisoners who had been locked up for thirty years, some of them because they dared to sing a song about freedom in college. So they're eventually thrown out of jail onto the streets, and they formed a self help group to support each other because no one else would help them. So I'm in this place and it's a dump mud, it's a hole in the ground place. And while my assistants are setting up the lights, I'm walking around in a bad mood. I wasn't feeling this at all. I didn't want to be there. I missed my wife. I was worried for our security, and I noticed There was a year planner on the wall January February March, like we all have in our office, and every day on that year was empty. There were no plans for this organization, no events except for that day's date, and there was a little red cross on it with some scribbles. I went in close to see if I could read them, and it was in Burmese, so I couldn't don't speak the language. And this guy in a salmon tunic comes up to me and he says, today is the day. So I said, excuse me, what do you mean? He said, I'm translating for you the words. It says, today is the day famous photographer Platon is coming to help us newte At that point, my heart stopped. I felt guilty, I felt ashamed of myself, and I also felt fraudulent. The truth is that I was not famous. I was just a young gun trying to make it in America, and I didn't know anything about human rights. I was used to photographing, as you say, powerful politicians and icons. But I looked around the room and I was all they had. There was no one else there anyway. And that's one of those moments again where you just talk to yourself and you say, dude, you've got to become the person they need you to be today. And even if you're not feeling that in your psyche, you've got to pretend for them. So I thought, well, I do know how to photograph people as powerful as icons of their time. I know how to make a time cover. I've shot thirty of them. I know how to make a Vanity Fair cover or even a rolling Stone cover. So why don't I photograph these people not as victims but as victor's These people must be so strong to have gone through all that and still come out and want their story told. So I photographed these guys as powerful. I then went on and photographed landmine victims, children who were orphans, monks who led the Saffron Revolution, cartoonists, video journalists, all living in exile in the mountains. I brought the images back and I worked on them for the rest of the year, and then I persuaded my editor David Remnick at The New Yorker, where I was a staff photographer in those days, to run the story. David kindly ran it is very gracious, and because the New Yorker ran it, one hundred news and media institutions and outlets around the world took the story and it was a game changer for human rights because it was the first time people were seen as powerful. They had been robbed of so much in their lives, and they had been victimized, but they were not seen as victims in my pictures. They were seen as a new set of cultural heroes. And that change in the narrative is so important. How we see each other draws people to these subjects, So you're not drawing people to the subject because of guilt, but because of inspiration. And in my book, this guy who translated for me wearing the salmon tunic that day, turns out his name is Cobo Chi, and he's an incredible hero of human rights, fighting for people's dignity. And I invited him and a handful of other great people to write an essay in my book, and he graciously agreed. And in his essay he writes about what it's like to have your freedom taken away? And do you mind if I read you a couple of the words, he said.

Human Rights Watch came to my office just after I'd photographed ourli and I'd worked with the Little Rot Nine, for instance, many great members of the civil rights community. And they said, we have a problem. We have all this data, all this research, but no one seems interested in the media in politics. We can't seem to get into people's hearts. And they said, maybe we need to change our plans, maybe we need to change the narrative. I've always believed that guilt doesn't work. Accusation political accusation doesn't work when you're trying to persuade people to respect human rights. And I don't believe one side of the political oile owns the banner of human rights. I think it's something that is above all political ideology. So they said, there's a forgotten country called burmavaged by years of civil war and a brutal military dictatorship. And if you fight for freedom in Burma, you're either exiled, tortured, imprisoned, or killed. There's very little other options. And they said, we would like to send you to a remote outpost at the Thai Burma border to photograph a community of exiles. And I said, well, how much will I get And they said no money. I said, ah, I said, is it dangerous? And they said yes, it's dangerous. I said how long is it going to take? And they said months, maybe a year to do this full project. I had an office in New York. My wife had just had a baby. She was very vulnerable. But I thought about what Arlie said, so I said, all right, I'll do it. So we went. It's a terrible journey, like long flight, then eleven hour car journey into the mountains and we got there to set up our first shoot straight from travel. So we were all jet lagged and tired, and we went to a community center put together by former political prisoners who had been locked up for thirty years, some of them because they dared to sing a song about freedom in college. So they're eventually thrown out of jail onto the streets, and they formed a self help group to support each other because no one else would help them. So I'm in this place and it's a dump mud, it's a hole in the ground place. And while my assistants are setting up the lights, I'm walking around in a bad mood. I wasn't feeling this at all. I didn't want to be there. I missed my wife. I was worried for our security, and I noticed There was a year planner on the wall January February March, like we all have in our office, and every day on that year was empty. There were no plans for this organization, no events except for that day's date, and there was a little red cross on it with some scribbles. I went in close to see if I could read them, and it was in Burmese, so I couldn't don't speak the language. And this guy in a salmon tunic comes up to me and he says, today is the day. So I said, excuse me, what do you mean? He said, I'm translating for you the words. It says, today is the day famous photographer Platon is coming to help us newte At that point, my heart stopped. I felt guilty, I felt ashamed of myself, and I also felt fraudulent. The truth is that I was not famous. I was just a young gun trying to make it in America, and I didn't know anything about human rights. I was used to photographing, as you say, powerful politicians and icons. But I looked around the room and I was all they had. There was no one else there anyway. And that's one of those moments again where you just talk to yourself and you say, dude, you've got to become the person they need you to be today. And even if you're not feeling that in your psyche, you've got to pretend for them. So I thought, well, I do know how to photograph people as powerful as icons of their time. I know how to make a time cover. I've shot thirty of them. I know how to make a Vanity Fair cover or even a rolling Stone cover. So why don't I photograph these people not as victims but as victor's These people must be so strong to have gone through all that and still come out and want their story told. So I photographed these guys as powerful. I then went on and photographed landmine victims, children who were orphans, monks who led the Saffron Revolution, cartoonists, video journalists, all living in exile in the mountains. I brought the images back and I worked on them for the rest of the year, and then I persuaded my editor David Remnick at The New Yorker, where I was a staff photographer in those days, to run the story. David kindly ran it is very gracious, and because the New Yorker ran it, one hundred news and media institutions and outlets around the world took the story and it was a game changer for human rights because it was the first time people were seen as powerful. They had been robbed of so much in their lives, and they had been victimized, but they were not seen as victims in my pictures. They were seen as a new set of cultural heroes. And that change in the narrative is so important. How we see each other draws people to these subjects, So you're not drawing people to the subject because of guilt, but because of inspiration. And in my book, this guy who translated for me wearing the salmon tunic that day, turns out his name is Cobo Chi, and he's an incredible hero of human rights, fighting for people's dignity. And I invited him and a handful of other great people to write an essay in my book, and he graciously agreed. And in his essay he writes about what it's like to have your freedom taken away? And do you mind if I read you a couple of the words, he said.

I'd be delighted. This is from your new book, The Defenders.

I'd be delighted. This is from your new book, The Defenders.

Yeah, and he is a defender, and this is what he said about prison. He said, I was placed in a tiny cell with no natural light. Reading, writing, studying were all banned. I realized that my captors wanted to kill my intelligence and my humanity. I was tortured both mentally and physically. I was beaten and kicked, and forced to stand for hours on end. When my feet were too swollen to support my body, I collapsed with exhaustion. They pulled me up by my ears. I was blindfolded, unable to see sunlight or to tell whether it was night or day. At times I thought I would die, but I slowly came to understand there was a reason I stayed alive.

Yeah, and he is a defender, and this is what he said about prison. He said, I was placed in a tiny cell with no natural light. Reading, writing, studying were all banned. I realized that my captors wanted to kill my intelligence and my humanity. I was tortured both mentally and physically. I was beaten and kicked, and forced to stand for hours on end. When my feet were too swollen to support my body, I collapsed with exhaustion. They pulled me up by my ears. I was blindfolded, unable to see sunlight or to tell whether it was night or day. At times I thought I would die, but I slowly came to understand there was a reason I stayed alive.

I have seen my.

I have seen my.

Photo that Platon took in many magazines, and it makes me proud. The more my portrait appears the world over, the more pressure is put on the Burmese government to acknowledge our existence, to apologize for our treatment, and to offer reparations to help us move forward with our lives. This portrait of me protects my dignity and encourages me to continue the hardships of fighting for justice. That newt is one of the greatest honors I could ever have. That's the prize It's not winning awards at some posh ceremony where everyone's drinking champagne. It's having that kind of validation from someone who had nothing but their story to tell, and if he felt it was told appropriately with dignity that moved people to think differently about values, then that is what we should all aspire to in society. So since then I went on to the Egyptian Revolution. I filmed leaders of the revolution in the chaos of Taris Square. I went to Democratic Republic of Congo and dealt with sexual violence, supporting sexual violence survivors and doctors and nurses, and then we covered IHM a Great in America. And then the other chapter was all Russia, all the brave former Soviet dissidents who have now mostly passed away, and then the new generation of activists in Russia who Putin has crushed, but that's still alive. That's still there, that just put down, but they will rise up again. It's like holding back the sea. Is a people's movement, and people's dignity cannot be stopped in the long run.

Photo that Platon took in many magazines, and it makes me proud. The more my portrait appears the world over, the more pressure is put on the Burmese government to acknowledge our existence, to apologize for our treatment, and to offer reparations to help us move forward with our lives. This portrait of me protects my dignity and encourages me to continue the hardships of fighting for justice. That newt is one of the greatest honors I could ever have. That's the prize It's not winning awards at some posh ceremony where everyone's drinking champagne. It's having that kind of validation from someone who had nothing but their story to tell, and if he felt it was told appropriately with dignity that moved people to think differently about values, then that is what we should all aspire to in society. So since then I went on to the Egyptian Revolution. I filmed leaders of the revolution in the chaos of Taris Square. I went to Democratic Republic of Congo and dealt with sexual violence, supporting sexual violence survivors and doctors and nurses, and then we covered IHM a Great in America. And then the other chapter was all Russia, all the brave former Soviet dissidents who have now mostly passed away, and then the new generation of activists in Russia who Putin has crushed, but that's still alive. That's still there, that just put down, but they will rise up again. It's like holding back the sea. Is a people's movement, and people's dignity cannot be stopped in the long run.

In a sense, your career on one level has been photographing people who are currently in power and at the other level, it's photographing the people who will be the power of the future.

In a sense, your career on one level has been photographing people who are currently in power and at the other level, it's photographing the people who will be the power of the future.

Yeah, And actually, the book The Power of the Future is a lovely way to put it, because I made this book for the next generation of activists, because they will read all these stories about how other people have done it in the last hundred years and see the struggles they went through and how they talk about it feels so lonely to stand up against authority, to stand up against the general consensus, and to dare to question the way our society works. It takes so much courage and it's very lonely. And all the defenders that we look to in history as inspirational figures of our time, we forget how frightened they were, how vulnerable they were. So it will act as a guidebook for the next generation, particularly the young who I think clearly they care. They care about the well being of society, they care about our future, and without a doubt, members of that generation will soon be in power. So if the book acts as a guidebook to help them navigate the stormy paths ahead, then that will serve its purpose.

Yeah, And actually, the book The Power of the Future is a lovely way to put it, because I made this book for the next generation of activists, because they will read all these stories about how other people have done it in the last hundred years and see the struggles they went through and how they talk about it feels so lonely to stand up against authority, to stand up against the general consensus, and to dare to question the way our society works. It takes so much courage and it's very lonely. And all the defenders that we look to in history as inspirational figures of our time, we forget how frightened they were, how vulnerable they were. So it will act as a guidebook for the next generation, particularly the young who I think clearly they care. They care about the well being of society, they care about our future, and without a doubt, members of that generation will soon be in power. So if the book acts as a guidebook to help them navigate the stormy paths ahead, then that will serve its purpose.

Platter, this is really an exhilarating conversation and in a number of directions I couldn't have imagined. I want to thank you for joining me on news World. I want to mention to our listeners who either live in or visit California, that you have a major exhibition entitled People Powerplatin at UTA artist Space in Los Angeles on view from May third to May twenty fifth, and that you can find more information at Uta artistspace dot com. In addition to, of course this brand new terrific book, The Defenders. For those who like to learn more about your work in general, they can visit your website at platinphoto dot com. And I really want to thank you for sharing from the heart, which is what I really felt today, that we were getting your heart, and it means a great deal to me to be able to learn from you and to hear of your life's work.

Platter, this is really an exhilarating conversation and in a number of directions I couldn't have imagined. I want to thank you for joining me on news World. I want to mention to our listeners who either live in or visit California, that you have a major exhibition entitled People Powerplatin at UTA artist Space in Los Angeles on view from May third to May twenty fifth, and that you can find more information at Uta artistspace dot com. In addition to, of course this brand new terrific book, The Defenders. For those who like to learn more about your work in general, they can visit your website at platinphoto dot com. And I really want to thank you for sharing from the heart, which is what I really felt today, that we were getting your heart, and it means a great deal to me to be able to learn from you and to hear of your life's work.

I never thought I would have such a heartfelt, meaning conversation with Nut Gingrich when I was starting out in this game. And you are right in the center of history, and it's always a great pleasure to have a human interaction with someone that you've been aware of their presence for so long. So thank you for your curiosity for using your platform to have these types of conversations, and I commend you for the work you're doing these days. It's really interesting.

I never thought I would have such a heartfelt, meaning conversation with Nut Gingrich when I was starting out in this game. And you are right in the center of history, and it's always a great pleasure to have a human interaction with someone that you've been aware of their presence for so long. So thank you for your curiosity for using your platform to have these types of conversations, and I commend you for the work you're doing these days. It's really interesting.

Thank you to my guest Platon. You can get a link to buy his new book, The Defenders, Heroes of the Fight for Global Human Rights on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newts World is produced by Ganglisht three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at Ganlishtree sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give us a review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of neut World consign up for my three freeweekly columns at gingrichthree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is neut World.

Thank you to my guest Platon. You can get a link to buy his new book, The Defenders, Heroes of the Fight for Global Human Rights on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newts World is produced by Ganglisht three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at Ganlishtree sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give us a review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of neut World consign up for my three freeweekly columns at gingrichthree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is neut World.