On this episode of The Newsworld. Funding Ukraine so they can continue to fight Russian aggression can become a hot button issue in Washington, d C. As Congress considers the next legislation to fund the war. I firmly support funding Ukraine. And here's why. If Putin wins, he will not stop, and we will be in grave risk of a much larger war, inevitably involving the United States. I'm really pleased to welcome my guests a remarkably experienced leader, Jim Gilmour. He served as Governor of Virginia and his ambassador to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe under President Donald Trump. Jim, it is great to have you join us in Newsworld.

On this episode of The Newsworld. Funding Ukraine so they can continue to fight Russian aggression can become a hot button issue in Washington, d C. As Congress considers the next legislation to fund the war. I firmly support funding Ukraine. And here's why. If Putin wins, he will not stop, and we will be in grave risk of a much larger war, inevitably involving the United States. I'm really pleased to welcome my guests a remarkably experienced leader, Jim Gilmour. He served as Governor of Virginia and his ambassador to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe under President Donald Trump. Jim, it is great to have you join us in Newsworld.

Great thank you new for the chance to be with you in your listeners today.

Great thank you new for the chance to be with you in your listeners today.

Well as you know, the Senate in February approved a ninety five billion dollar supplemental aid package for Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan. About sixty billion would go to supporting Ukraine, fourteen billion to purchase weapons and munitions, fifteen billion for support services such as military training and intelligence sharing. About eight billion would go to help Ukrainian government continue their basic operations with a prohibition on the money going towards pensions and about one point six billion to help Ukraine's private sector. Speaker Mike Johnson vowed to bring a vote on military aid to Ukraine after the House returned, but has met with some pushback from Republicans. In fact, representing Marjorie Taylor Green has threatened to oust Speaker Johnson if he brings the Ukraine aid to a vote. Representative Chip Roy of Texas declined to endorse or rule out supporting Green's threat, saying he's focused on working with Johnson to figure out a path to strengthen the US Mexico border, but he also warned that it'd be a complete failure to put Ukraine on the floor without dealing with the border. You know, as governor you've often had to work with the legislature, and as an ambassador, you've seen the world from a different view than most Americans. What's your sense of where we're at and how we should be thinking about this?

Well as you know, the Senate in February approved a ninety five billion dollar supplemental aid package for Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan. About sixty billion would go to supporting Ukraine, fourteen billion to purchase weapons and munitions, fifteen billion for support services such as military training and intelligence sharing. About eight billion would go to help Ukrainian government continue their basic operations with a prohibition on the money going towards pensions and about one point six billion to help Ukraine's private sector. Speaker Mike Johnson vowed to bring a vote on military aid to Ukraine after the House returned, but has met with some pushback from Republicans. In fact, representing Marjorie Taylor Green has threatened to oust Speaker Johnson if he brings the Ukraine aid to a vote. Representative Chip Roy of Texas declined to endorse or rule out supporting Green's threat, saying he's focused on working with Johnson to figure out a path to strengthen the US Mexico border, but he also warned that it'd be a complete failure to put Ukraine on the floor without dealing with the border. You know, as governor you've often had to work with the legislature, and as an ambassador, you've seen the world from a different view than most Americans. What's your sense of where we're at and how we should be thinking about this?

Well, Nude, I think that you're exactly correct that it's essential that the Ukraine bill pass. There's certainly nothing wrong with focusing on the border issues. I think that's legitimate. We've seen a real failure by President Biden to address that issue. But that can't become a block to the international crisis that we're facing now in Europe. My view, i think similar to yours, is that Ukraine has to succeed. It can't become a conquest by violence or atrocity or aggression by Russia. Putin has made it clear what he intends to do. He intends to reassemble the Russian Empire to the greatest extent that he possibly can, and the Ukraine is his essential first step. He's not going to stop, he hasn't stopped up to this point. But yet at the same time, the Ukrainians are fighting for their freedom and for their independence. They're paying for it in blood, and they just need the weapons and they need the support. So I think that it's absolutely essential to do this, and the Speaker Johnson is doing the right thing, and I want to support him in every way that I can.

Well, Nude, I think that you're exactly correct that it's essential that the Ukraine bill pass. There's certainly nothing wrong with focusing on the border issues. I think that's legitimate. We've seen a real failure by President Biden to address that issue. But that can't become a block to the international crisis that we're facing now in Europe. My view, i think similar to yours, is that Ukraine has to succeed. It can't become a conquest by violence or atrocity or aggression by Russia. Putin has made it clear what he intends to do. He intends to reassemble the Russian Empire to the greatest extent that he possibly can, and the Ukraine is his essential first step. He's not going to stop, he hasn't stopped up to this point. But yet at the same time, the Ukrainians are fighting for their freedom and for their independence. They're paying for it in blood, and they just need the weapons and they need the support. So I think that it's absolutely essential to do this, and the Speaker Johnson is doing the right thing, and I want to support him in every way that I can.

Well, I'm curious for a second, because you were there in Vienna. You sort of see the world from a central European standpoint. What's your sense about the level of fear that the countries in Middle Europe have about a victorious Putin.

Well, I'm curious for a second, because you were there in Vienna. You sort of see the world from a central European standpoint. What's your sense about the level of fear that the countries in Middle Europe have about a victorious Putin.

It was in Vienna and I had a chance to talk with fifty six other ambassadors, including all the ambassadors in Central Europe. Since that time, I've been to Kiev and visited with the leadership of Ukraine. Several weeks ago, I was in Vilnius, invited there in order to talk to the leaders of the Baltic countries and the Ukrainians. People did come in to talk. So I think I'm a bit up to date on this. The Central Europeans, and this includes, by the way, the Scandinavian countries, like particularly Finland and Sweden and others, are very shall I say, realistic about what the Russian threat really is. They do understand that they're threatened, and they're prepared to stand up, and they are standing up and they're making contributions to this crisis and to this financial support for Ukraine. But my report is not unique. As ambassador, I learned that the United States is always the big dog in the room. We're always the one that are looked to for leadership. It's because of our population, because of our sophistication, because of our financial assets. We are essentially the leader of the Western world. So I think the fundamental question that we have to ask is is the Western world worth saving? Worth leadership? Believe that it is so. To come directly to the point. If Putin succeeds, he then is ready to move on to other places. He's made it very clear what he's going to do. He's written it down, We've all read it, we've all seen it with his interviews. He intends to move on to Moldova and then from there to the Baltic States. The Baltic States know this. When I visited with him, they said that the threat is not if, but when, and then at that point you have a risk that he begins to take a gamble on whether he can afford to attack a NATO country. That would mean that we're going to be in a much larger war. But aside from the being in a larger war, he is in a position at that point to intimidate the rest of Europe, including Western Europe, and make Western Europe begin to have a second guess as to whether they want to be really that close to the United States. If that happens, I believe that is an exextential threat to the United States of America. Not to mention the fact that it will probably ignite a further war in the Pacific, and then we're suddenly in a two front war and a real world war. I want to avert that, and I know you do, and that's why I'm speaking out the way that I do.

It was in Vienna and I had a chance to talk with fifty six other ambassadors, including all the ambassadors in Central Europe. Since that time, I've been to Kiev and visited with the leadership of Ukraine. Several weeks ago, I was in Vilnius, invited there in order to talk to the leaders of the Baltic countries and the Ukrainians. People did come in to talk. So I think I'm a bit up to date on this. The Central Europeans, and this includes, by the way, the Scandinavian countries, like particularly Finland and Sweden and others, are very shall I say, realistic about what the Russian threat really is. They do understand that they're threatened, and they're prepared to stand up, and they are standing up and they're making contributions to this crisis and to this financial support for Ukraine. But my report is not unique. As ambassador, I learned that the United States is always the big dog in the room. We're always the one that are looked to for leadership. It's because of our population, because of our sophistication, because of our financial assets. We are essentially the leader of the Western world. So I think the fundamental question that we have to ask is is the Western world worth saving? Worth leadership? Believe that it is so. To come directly to the point. If Putin succeeds, he then is ready to move on to other places. He's made it very clear what he's going to do. He's written it down, We've all read it, we've all seen it with his interviews. He intends to move on to Moldova and then from there to the Baltic States. The Baltic States know this. When I visited with him, they said that the threat is not if, but when, and then at that point you have a risk that he begins to take a gamble on whether he can afford to attack a NATO country. That would mean that we're going to be in a much larger war. But aside from the being in a larger war, he is in a position at that point to intimidate the rest of Europe, including Western Europe, and make Western Europe begin to have a second guess as to whether they want to be really that close to the United States. If that happens, I believe that is an exextential threat to the United States of America. Not to mention the fact that it will probably ignite a further war in the Pacific, and then we're suddenly in a two front war and a real world war. I want to avert that, and I know you do, and that's why I'm speaking out the way that I do.

Well, you know the way you describe it, and I agree entirely with your analysis. It's almost as though we're now prepared to lose the Cold War having won it. I mean, the whole point of NATO and the whole point of our involvement starting in nineteen forty nine was to stop the Soviet Union from dominating Europe, and we succeeded, and ultimately the Sivie Union disappeared. And it's clear that Putin's number one goal is to rebuild the Soviet Empire. He set at one point that the collapse of the Civit Union was the greatest single tragedy of the twentieth century. So he's pretty clear about what he wants. And I think, from my perspective, in that sense, this is an effort as much to stop Putin as it is to help Ukraine. And we have to understand both sides of that equation. Now, you know that one of the things being considered by the House of Publicans is the REPO Act, which House Foreign Affairs Chairman Mike McCall and Congressman French Hill of Arkansas introduced. And the REPO Act would allow us to seize Russian assets that are sovereign assets. We would then take that money and apply it to help pay for the war. And then secondly, it turns a lot of what we're doing into a loan and would basically pick up on something that President Roosevelt did in World War Two in trying to help Great Britain. Interestingly, Senat Jim Rishu is the ranking member of the Center forim Relations Committee, and Sheldon Whitehouse from Rhode Island, as a Democrat, worked with them to create a Rebuilding, Economic Prosperity and Opportunity for Ukrainians Act. It was passed into law. But we now have to empower the United States and get Biden to actually do what we're trying to do. And if we attach that to this budget request, we actually end up having the Russians help pay for part of the aid to defeat them in Ukraine. But what would your reaction be to seizing the Russian assets?

Well, you know the way you describe it, and I agree entirely with your analysis. It's almost as though we're now prepared to lose the Cold War having won it. I mean, the whole point of NATO and the whole point of our involvement starting in nineteen forty nine was to stop the Soviet Union from dominating Europe, and we succeeded, and ultimately the Sivie Union disappeared. And it's clear that Putin's number one goal is to rebuild the Soviet Empire. He set at one point that the collapse of the Civit Union was the greatest single tragedy of the twentieth century. So he's pretty clear about what he wants. And I think, from my perspective, in that sense, this is an effort as much to stop Putin as it is to help Ukraine. And we have to understand both sides of that equation. Now, you know that one of the things being considered by the House of Publicans is the REPO Act, which House Foreign Affairs Chairman Mike McCall and Congressman French Hill of Arkansas introduced. And the REPO Act would allow us to seize Russian assets that are sovereign assets. We would then take that money and apply it to help pay for the war. And then secondly, it turns a lot of what we're doing into a loan and would basically pick up on something that President Roosevelt did in World War Two in trying to help Great Britain. Interestingly, Senat Jim Rishu is the ranking member of the Center forim Relations Committee, and Sheldon Whitehouse from Rhode Island, as a Democrat, worked with them to create a Rebuilding, Economic Prosperity and Opportunity for Ukrainians Act. It was passed into law. But we now have to empower the United States and get Biden to actually do what we're trying to do. And if we attach that to this budget request, we actually end up having the Russians help pay for part of the aid to defeat them in Ukraine. But what would your reaction be to seizing the Russian assets?

I think the Russians would probably resent the fact that they put their finances at our reach and probably feel like somehow this is some sort of betrayal. But Russians always think like that. They always seem to think like they're the victims and they have to lash out against everybody else. The truth is that we have a moral right to do what is necessary to secure the rebuilding of Ukraine. Ukraine didn't attack Russia. Russia has invaded and committed an aggression, which is a violation not only of international law, but of all of their agreements that they've reached in the past, including the Budapest memorandom where they agreed to guarantee Ukraine's sovereign borders. So they're the ones that are wrong. Here is the Russians who have committed the wrongdoing, and it's perfectly proper for the civilized world to make them pay for their wrongdoing. They're the ones that have destroyed all this, not us. The Ukrainians haven't attacked Russia until they're now doing some defensive attacks because they're in an all old war. But I think the Ukraine would have been happy simply to restore their borders and go on to live like a normal country, and frankly, Russia should start to live like a normal country. So I agree with you Knute that the securing of that money in order to rebuild Ukraine is the right thing to do.

I think the Russians would probably resent the fact that they put their finances at our reach and probably feel like somehow this is some sort of betrayal. But Russians always think like that. They always seem to think like they're the victims and they have to lash out against everybody else. The truth is that we have a moral right to do what is necessary to secure the rebuilding of Ukraine. Ukraine didn't attack Russia. Russia has invaded and committed an aggression, which is a violation not only of international law, but of all of their agreements that they've reached in the past, including the Budapest memorandom where they agreed to guarantee Ukraine's sovereign borders. So they're the ones that are wrong. Here is the Russians who have committed the wrongdoing, and it's perfectly proper for the civilized world to make them pay for their wrongdoing. They're the ones that have destroyed all this, not us. The Ukrainians haven't attacked Russia until they're now doing some defensive attacks because they're in an all old war. But I think the Ukraine would have been happy simply to restore their borders and go on to live like a normal country, and frankly, Russia should start to live like a normal country. So I agree with you Knute that the securing of that money in order to rebuild Ukraine is the right thing to do.

If you wrote a very important article in the International Policy Digest, there was an interview with you on April sixth, and you put a great deal of the responsibility in President Biden for not having led Democrats to cooperate with House Republicans. Could you expand on the views you were developing in that interview.

If you wrote a very important article in the International Policy Digest, there was an interview with you on April sixth, and you put a great deal of the responsibility in President Biden for not having led Democrats to cooperate with House Republicans. Could you expand on the views you were developing in that interview.

I am deeply respectful of the power of the presidency. If it's used by an effective person, it can provide tremendous leadership, as we saw with Ronald Reagan, as we've seen with other presidents as well. I fall President Biden for at least two reasons. The first, which you've alluded to, is that he's just not able to use the bully pulpit and the influence of the American presidency to do the right thing. If he believes that Ukraine ought to be supported and that it's in the interest of national security to do that, he needs to be more vigorous in his leadership. And I think that he just can't do it. I think he's arrived at a point in his career where he just is not able to provide that kind of leadership out of the presidency, whereas I think probably Donald Trump can do that. He's a stronger and more vigorous person. That's why, of course I have decided to support President Trump. The other side of this, though, is that the US needs to be vigorous in its leadership. We need to stand for our values, and we need to recognize that. What really has happened with President Biden is that he's complicated the American political scenes greatly, that the American people are distracted from the central problem in the international conflict that we're in. He's created a highly inflationary state, which means that people now are more focused on their grocery store than they're on their long term national security. The border situation continues to be a problem, and everybody recognizes that crime is terrible in the streets. He says, his staff and his administration says silly things like there's no crime problem. Well, it's not a crime problem until you're the one being thrown under the subway, And then I think people really recognize that there's a crime problem, and then of course there's the international situation. So I just think that the presidency has gone beyond President Biden at this point, and there's going to be a need for a change.

I am deeply respectful of the power of the presidency. If it's used by an effective person, it can provide tremendous leadership, as we saw with Ronald Reagan, as we've seen with other presidents as well. I fall President Biden for at least two reasons. The first, which you've alluded to, is that he's just not able to use the bully pulpit and the influence of the American presidency to do the right thing. If he believes that Ukraine ought to be supported and that it's in the interest of national security to do that, he needs to be more vigorous in his leadership. And I think that he just can't do it. I think he's arrived at a point in his career where he just is not able to provide that kind of leadership out of the presidency, whereas I think probably Donald Trump can do that. He's a stronger and more vigorous person. That's why, of course I have decided to support President Trump. The other side of this, though, is that the US needs to be vigorous in its leadership. We need to stand for our values, and we need to recognize that. What really has happened with President Biden is that he's complicated the American political scenes greatly, that the American people are distracted from the central problem in the international conflict that we're in. He's created a highly inflationary state, which means that people now are more focused on their grocery store than they're on their long term national security. The border situation continues to be a problem, and everybody recognizes that crime is terrible in the streets. He says, his staff and his administration says silly things like there's no crime problem. Well, it's not a crime problem until you're the one being thrown under the subway, And then I think people really recognize that there's a crime problem, and then of course there's the international situation. So I just think that the presidency has gone beyond President Biden at this point, and there's going to be a need for a change.

It's really remarkable. Analysis was done by the Institute for the Study of War and they concluded that the Allies collectively have about a sixty three trillion dollars annual economy and the Russians are at one point nine trillions. We're basically about almost forty times the size of the Russian economy. Now, you would think that with that scale of resources, that we should be able, frankly, to drown the Russians militarily, if we were serious about doing it.

It's really remarkable. Analysis was done by the Institute for the Study of War and they concluded that the Allies collectively have about a sixty three trillion dollars annual economy and the Russians are at one point nine trillions. We're basically about almost forty times the size of the Russian economy. Now, you would think that with that scale of resources, that we should be able, frankly, to drown the Russians militarily, if we were serious about doing it.

You would think that we could. And in fact, the United States economy is a tremendous economy, isn't it. The United States gross domestic product, our GDP is twenty seven trillion dollars that dwarfs anybody else in the world, including China. And if we apply our resources correctly, we continue our leadership in the world, and we should do that. I've heard all these false arguments that are made sometimes out of our friends new things like well, why are we looking after the Ukraine border when we should be looking after our own border. Well two answers to that. First of all, they're not analogous at all. We're talking about a border violation in Europe, which is an aggression which threatens the entire structure of the world and means that we have to be prepared to address that, as opposed to people running across the border as illegal immigrants. There's just two different things entirely. And second of all, we're a great power, we're a great country. We ought to be able to handle more than one thing at a time. This is really I think Russian propaganda that's being inserted into the American body politic, and we are not to fall for it. So there are other false arguments that are being made as well, But the point is that this is a point where American leadership and finances essentially, I think maybe I might like to make one more point. We need to be thinking about what hybrid warfare is. Means that you concentrate all of your national power against an enemy, and that means not just military or battlefield, but also propaganda and messaging, which I believe is the most important thing because it works on the mind of the adversary, that being the American people, and cyber and economics, all of these things, the use of oil power, for example, all of these things are being concentrated by Putin into his main mission, which is to conquer Ukraine, the essential first step in the reassembly of the Russian Empire.

You would think that we could. And in fact, the United States economy is a tremendous economy, isn't it. The United States gross domestic product, our GDP is twenty seven trillion dollars that dwarfs anybody else in the world, including China. And if we apply our resources correctly, we continue our leadership in the world, and we should do that. I've heard all these false arguments that are made sometimes out of our friends new things like well, why are we looking after the Ukraine border when we should be looking after our own border. Well two answers to that. First of all, they're not analogous at all. We're talking about a border violation in Europe, which is an aggression which threatens the entire structure of the world and means that we have to be prepared to address that, as opposed to people running across the border as illegal immigrants. There's just two different things entirely. And second of all, we're a great power, we're a great country. We ought to be able to handle more than one thing at a time. This is really I think Russian propaganda that's being inserted into the American body politic, and we are not to fall for it. So there are other false arguments that are being made as well, But the point is that this is a point where American leadership and finances essentially, I think maybe I might like to make one more point. We need to be thinking about what hybrid warfare is. Means that you concentrate all of your national power against an enemy, and that means not just military or battlefield, but also propaganda and messaging, which I believe is the most important thing because it works on the mind of the adversary, that being the American people, and cyber and economics, all of these things, the use of oil power, for example, all of these things are being concentrated by Putin into his main mission, which is to conquer Ukraine, the essential first step in the reassembly of the Russian Empire.

I wonder who's doing the thinking in the White House and stopping an expansion of liquefied natural gas when that is the best single American response to cutting off the Russian sale of gas in Western Europe that undermines the war effort in ways that you think somebody in the White House would have some notion that we should be expanding our ability to help the Europeans get off Russian natural gas, not weakening that ability. In these are the kind of decisions I find just really perplexing.

I wonder who's doing the thinking in the White House and stopping an expansion of liquefied natural gas when that is the best single American response to cutting off the Russian sale of gas in Western Europe that undermines the war effort in ways that you think somebody in the White House would have some notion that we should be expanding our ability to help the Europeans get off Russian natural gas, not weakening that ability. In these are the kind of decisions I find just really perplexing.

I know when I was ambassador to the Osse and working with some of the Allied ambassadors, and frankly, one day, casually I was speaking to the German ambassador to Ossee and I basically said, are you people out of your minds? You really should not be connecting yourself so much and so dependent on Russia. You know that they have the potential to be aggressourse, you need to be more independent, and of course now I think that that is beginning to emerge. But to come back to your point, what is the American policy on this? And I think that we should be drilling, we should be expanding our resources. We were doing that a few years ago, and for some reason which I don't completely understand, President Biden and the Democratic to the Party have decided to weaken this country and to stop the creation of energy. It was really a big major card in the hand of the Western powers, the American ability to provide some of this oil and gas and take the world off of this dependency on some of the other oil producing nations, including Russia. I think that's a policy that has to change. I think it will change if there's a change in the administration.

I know when I was ambassador to the Osse and working with some of the Allied ambassadors, and frankly, one day, casually I was speaking to the German ambassador to Ossee and I basically said, are you people out of your minds? You really should not be connecting yourself so much and so dependent on Russia. You know that they have the potential to be aggressourse, you need to be more independent, and of course now I think that that is beginning to emerge. But to come back to your point, what is the American policy on this? And I think that we should be drilling, we should be expanding our resources. We were doing that a few years ago, and for some reason which I don't completely understand, President Biden and the Democratic to the Party have decided to weaken this country and to stop the creation of energy. It was really a big major card in the hand of the Western powers, the American ability to provide some of this oil and gas and take the world off of this dependency on some of the other oil producing nations, including Russia. I think that's a policy that has to change. I think it will change if there's a change in the administration.

An example of how totally unacceptable putin is there was an international conference which just issued a report entitled Restoring Justice for Ukraine. Over forty countries called for a special tribunal to hold Russia accountable for war crimes. Forty four countries signed this thing, and the Prosecutor General's Office reported that Ukraine has collected pre trial information when over one hundred and twenty eight thousand victims of war crimes. When you start talking about psychological warfare and communications warfare, it seems to be that the West case, if it was made, would be dramatically stronger than what we're getting from people in the news media right now. But actually we have a huge case that the Russians have actually committed far more atrocities than Hamas. They have killed far more people, raped far more people, stolen children. I mean, it's an astonishing story of an almost anti human system that Putin has created, and it seems to me that that could be communicated clearly, people would understand the evil that we're facing and why we have to ensure that he cannot win.

An example of how totally unacceptable putin is there was an international conference which just issued a report entitled Restoring Justice for Ukraine. Over forty countries called for a special tribunal to hold Russia accountable for war crimes. Forty four countries signed this thing, and the Prosecutor General's Office reported that Ukraine has collected pre trial information when over one hundred and twenty eight thousand victims of war crimes. When you start talking about psychological warfare and communications warfare, it seems to be that the West case, if it was made, would be dramatically stronger than what we're getting from people in the news media right now. But actually we have a huge case that the Russians have actually committed far more atrocities than Hamas. They have killed far more people, raped far more people, stolen children. I mean, it's an astonishing story of an almost anti human system that Putin has created, and it seems to me that that could be communicated clearly, people would understand the evil that we're facing and why we have to ensure that he cannot win.

I think that the West states to recapture its moral righteousness, the fact that we are on the high ground, we are the ones that are doing the right thing. There's a tendency to get into moral equivalency here and to say, well, Russia is Russia, and the US is the US and the West and the Easter or equivalent. That's not true at all. What's going on here is that Vuten wants to change the entire international order. Reason, by the way, why they were so uncooperative with the OSSE. The OSSE, by the way, with Russian support, was established in order to create new rules of the road internationally, and it said that there would be human rights, that we would not go back to a Nazi like regime of the knock on the door of the middle of the night or stalin type of regime where people were hauled away to sellers and beaten and killed, that we would not have aggression to change the politics of the world. Putin wants to throw all of that away and establish a new way of doing things in the world. And by the way, he has plenty of allies in both the Iranians and also particularly the Chinese, who as we know, have thrown wigers into concentration camps and they're now threatening Taipei in Taiwan with once again a military aggression. If this type of thing is able to overcome the righteousness of our Western values, at that point, it's a whole new world. And I think that it's avitable at that point that we can't live in that world and we're going to end up in a war. Furthermore, they can't live with us as long as we are righteous people doing the right thing. And with a proper justification, we become the enemy. They can't allow us to exist in our system. They have to replace our system, and that I'm afraid new means a third World war. And I want to say again, I think people like you and I ought to be working to avert that war, not to create it.

I think that the West states to recapture its moral righteousness, the fact that we are on the high ground, we are the ones that are doing the right thing. There's a tendency to get into moral equivalency here and to say, well, Russia is Russia, and the US is the US and the West and the Easter or equivalent. That's not true at all. What's going on here is that Vuten wants to change the entire international order. Reason, by the way, why they were so uncooperative with the OSSE. The OSSE, by the way, with Russian support, was established in order to create new rules of the road internationally, and it said that there would be human rights, that we would not go back to a Nazi like regime of the knock on the door of the middle of the night or stalin type of regime where people were hauled away to sellers and beaten and killed, that we would not have aggression to change the politics of the world. Putin wants to throw all of that away and establish a new way of doing things in the world. And by the way, he has plenty of allies in both the Iranians and also particularly the Chinese, who as we know, have thrown wigers into concentration camps and they're now threatening Taipei in Taiwan with once again a military aggression. If this type of thing is able to overcome the righteousness of our Western values, at that point, it's a whole new world. And I think that it's avitable at that point that we can't live in that world and we're going to end up in a war. Furthermore, they can't live with us as long as we are righteous people doing the right thing. And with a proper justification, we become the enemy. They can't allow us to exist in our system. They have to replace our system, and that I'm afraid new means a third World war. And I want to say again, I think people like you and I ought to be working to avert that war, not to create it.

That's right. I think a no vote on stopping Putin is in effect a yes vote on drifting into a much bigger war in the not very distant future, and a war that would be horrifying. I mean, Russia does still have about fifty five hundred nuclear weapons, and I think what we want to do is keep them off balance and keep them believing that they can't win. And if they do start winning, I think their arrogance will go up and they will actually become dramatically more dangerous than they already are. Let me ask you one last thing, which is it's really important for every member of Congress to understand that this is a historic, not a political moment. This is like Churchill in mid nineteen thirty. There are times when, as you know, because you've been in politics, a fair peace there at tends on what you're doing. Is this political one you might win, you might lose, But then there are those rare moments when you really sort of in the balance of history, and it seems say that this is one of those moments.

That's right. I think a no vote on stopping Putin is in effect a yes vote on drifting into a much bigger war in the not very distant future, and a war that would be horrifying. I mean, Russia does still have about fifty five hundred nuclear weapons, and I think what we want to do is keep them off balance and keep them believing that they can't win. And if they do start winning, I think their arrogance will go up and they will actually become dramatically more dangerous than they already are. Let me ask you one last thing, which is it's really important for every member of Congress to understand that this is a historic, not a political moment. This is like Churchill in mid nineteen thirty. There are times when, as you know, because you've been in politics, a fair peace there at tends on what you're doing. Is this political one you might win, you might lose, But then there are those rare moments when you really sort of in the balance of history, and it seems say that this is one of those moments.

I absolutely agree. It's hard for me to believe at this point in my political career that I would arrive at this I wouldn't have expected it after the successes of the Ronald Reagan years and they're prevailing over the Cold War. But what's happening right now is a pivot in my view. We're seeing the conflict in the Middle East, which is very important, and I support Israel and it's right to exist and its ability to resist its attack by Hamas. I'm going to Taiwan in just a few weeks and conferring with people there, both in giving them a political speech and also meeting with government officials. But Taiwan is under threat and China is basically saying, you know, if we have to, we'll just invade when we'll just create a war like situation, And then of course you have the Ukraine. My view is that of all these conflicts, that the Ukraine War is the pivot for the future. I've heard people say, well, we really need to be pivoting to Asia. I think not yet. The European War is actually underway. People are actually being killed, Bombs are actually exploding there, tanks are moving. That's where the real war is. If Putin is able to succeed there, he compromises Europe. If he compromises Europe and gets them rethinking about where their future really should lie, that is a danger to the United States. And I have a dark vision that says that if the Pacific goes haywire, Europe goes haywire, the United States is without allies, to be crowded back within to itself to the point where our internal conflicts then take us over, and at that point we become a poor, more divided, and more violent nation. I think that we're on the high ground right now. We should work very hard to stay there. I hope Speaker Johnson will lead in that capacity. I hope the Congress people will support his efforts to get this Ukraine funding because I believe it's the pivot for the future. As do you.

I absolutely agree. It's hard for me to believe at this point in my political career that I would arrive at this I wouldn't have expected it after the successes of the Ronald Reagan years and they're prevailing over the Cold War. But what's happening right now is a pivot in my view. We're seeing the conflict in the Middle East, which is very important, and I support Israel and it's right to exist and its ability to resist its attack by Hamas. I'm going to Taiwan in just a few weeks and conferring with people there, both in giving them a political speech and also meeting with government officials. But Taiwan is under threat and China is basically saying, you know, if we have to, we'll just invade when we'll just create a war like situation, And then of course you have the Ukraine. My view is that of all these conflicts, that the Ukraine War is the pivot for the future. I've heard people say, well, we really need to be pivoting to Asia. I think not yet. The European War is actually underway. People are actually being killed, Bombs are actually exploding there, tanks are moving. That's where the real war is. If Putin is able to succeed there, he compromises Europe. If he compromises Europe and gets them rethinking about where their future really should lie, that is a danger to the United States. And I have a dark vision that says that if the Pacific goes haywire, Europe goes haywire, the United States is without allies, to be crowded back within to itself to the point where our internal conflicts then take us over, and at that point we become a poor, more divided, and more violent nation. I think that we're on the high ground right now. We should work very hard to stay there. I hope Speaker Johnson will lead in that capacity. I hope the Congress people will support his efforts to get this Ukraine funding because I believe it's the pivot for the future. As do you.

Listen, Jim, I want to thank you for joining me. I really appreciate you lending your voice to help convince our fellow Americans that we have to support Ukraine and we have to win the war against Russian aggression. And I really appreciate what you're doing and I want to encourage you to keep doing it.

Listen, Jim, I want to thank you for joining me. I really appreciate you lending your voice to help convince our fellow Americans that we have to support Ukraine and we have to win the war against Russian aggression. And I really appreciate what you're doing and I want to encourage you to keep doing it.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to be on your podcast. You're a great voice in America and continue to be and I'm very thankful and grateful for your leadership.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to be on your podcast. You're a great voice in America and continue to be and I'm very thankful and grateful for your leadership.

And now I'm very pleased to welcome my guests, Congressman Chuck Edwards, who represents North Carolina's eleventh district. He just recently returned from a trip to Ukraine, and I asked him to share his experience. Chuck, you and a bipartisan group of House members visited Ukraine during the recent trips to Europe during the House recess. Why did you want to go?

And now I'm very pleased to welcome my guests, Congressman Chuck Edwards, who represents North Carolina's eleventh district. He just recently returned from a trip to Ukraine, and I asked him to share his experience. Chuck, you and a bipartisan group of House members visited Ukraine during the recent trips to Europe during the House recess. Why did you want to go?

Well, we've heard reports of what's going on in Ukraine. We heard that the situation over there is becoming quite dire. I don't know that I have trusted or been able to trust the news reports that we got back or that we get here in the United States. And I felt it was important before I cast a vote or take a position one way or another, that I get a first hand accounting the boots on the ground. Perspective.

Well, we've heard reports of what's going on in Ukraine. We heard that the situation over there is becoming quite dire. I don't know that I have trusted or been able to trust the news reports that we got back or that we get here in the United States. And I felt it was important before I cast a vote or take a position one way or another, that I get a first hand accounting the boots on the ground. Perspective.

It was very impressive that you met with the chief of the General Staff of the Polish military, General Kokula. What was his take, He's the next door neighbor. They've had a long history of being worried about the Russians, and they're very, very pro American generally, So what sense did you get from Poland?

It was very impressive that you met with the chief of the General Staff of the Polish military, General Kokula. What was his take, He's the next door neighbor. They've had a long history of being worried about the Russians, and they're very, very pro American generally, So what sense did you get from Poland?

The folks in Poland are extremely concerned about what Putin would do next were he to take over Ukraine. First of all, they don't want such a ruthless neighbor, and they were very clear about what Putin's proximity to the other NATO nations over there would mean in terms of risk to the region.

The folks in Poland are extremely concerned about what Putin would do next were he to take over Ukraine. First of all, they don't want such a ruthless neighbor, and they were very clear about what Putin's proximity to the other NATO nations over there would mean in terms of risk to the region.

Did your sense of how dangerous and how destructive Putin is increase from this trip? Mean to give a difference, and so how deeply dangerous he is as a person?

Did your sense of how dangerous and how destructive Putin is increase from this trip? Mean to give a difference, and so how deeply dangerous he is as a person?

Oh? Unquestionably. As we look at the use reports back here at home, those few that we get, we see photos of buildings that have been destroyed. But the thing that is missing is the human element. And the thing that made the most difference for me is getting the opportunity to meet with war crimes victims, survivors and see the horrendous conditions that they had to live under putin occupation. Those stories made the biggest difference for me.

Oh? Unquestionably. As we look at the use reports back here at home, those few that we get, we see photos of buildings that have been destroyed. But the thing that is missing is the human element. And the thing that made the most difference for me is getting the opportunity to meet with war crimes victims, survivors and see the horrendous conditions that they had to live under putin occupation. Those stories made the biggest difference for me.

Were they much more shocking than you expected given the news reports?

Were they much more shocking than you expected given the news reports?

Oh my goodness. Yes. The vision of those who have never experienced war is that there are tanks shooting back and forth at one another and citizens are somewhat exonerated from the destruction. But that's just not the case. We learned from the Minister of Defense in Ukraine that Russia is targeting non military targets. Ninety seven percent of the attacks by Putin have been on non military targets, targets like hotels, hospitals, pharmacies, schools, churches, where they're innocent people trying to go about their daily lives.

Oh my goodness. Yes. The vision of those who have never experienced war is that there are tanks shooting back and forth at one another and citizens are somewhat exonerated from the destruction. But that's just not the case. We learned from the Minister of Defense in Ukraine that Russia is targeting non military targets. Ninety seven percent of the attacks by Putin have been on non military targets, targets like hotels, hospitals, pharmacies, schools, churches, where they're innocent people trying to go about their daily lives.

Don't you get the sense that Putin is literally trying to destroy the Ukrainian capacity to resistant. Rather than focusing on the army, He's deliberately trying to destroy the civilian infrastructure that everything rests on.

Don't you get the sense that Putin is literally trying to destroy the Ukrainian capacity to resistant. Rather than focusing on the army, He's deliberately trying to destroy the civilian infrastructure that everything rests on.

He is most certainly trying to destroy the infrastructure and the will of the Ukrainian people. That part's not working. In fact, the troops that they have heard from over there have said very openly that their goal is to make the Ukrainian people suffer, and that's certainly coming out in the way that Putin is approaching the attacks on Ukraine.

He is most certainly trying to destroy the infrastructure and the will of the Ukrainian people. That part's not working. In fact, the troops that they have heard from over there have said very openly that their goal is to make the Ukrainian people suffer, and that's certainly coming out in the way that Putin is approaching the attacks on Ukraine.

And when you talk to Ukrainians, I mean, how determined are they to resist?

And when you talk to Ukrainians, I mean, how determined are they to resist?

They are absolutely determined. I have never seen before such a strong will in a people in a nation. They just don't have the resources. They're getting ready to call out a number of other folks to join their army. I don't know that it would be appropriate for me to mention that number, but they've changed the age at which folks can be drafted. They expected a fairly large number of troops to be mobilized in the next few weeks. They're just out of resources. They need air defense systems. President Zelenski told me that he has a number of brigades that have absolutely no equipment and that they're being outshelled ten to one. They take ten incoming shells for everyone that they can return. The will of the people is there, they just need the equipment and the ammunition to be able to defend them.

They are absolutely determined. I have never seen before such a strong will in a people in a nation. They just don't have the resources. They're getting ready to call out a number of other folks to join their army. I don't know that it would be appropriate for me to mention that number, but they've changed the age at which folks can be drafted. They expected a fairly large number of troops to be mobilized in the next few weeks. They're just out of resources. They need air defense systems. President Zelenski told me that he has a number of brigades that have absolutely no equipment and that they're being outshelled ten to one. They take ten incoming shells for everyone that they can return. The will of the people is there, they just need the equipment and the ammunition to be able to defend them.

From your perspective as an American, how big a disaster and a danger would the collapse of Ukraine and the appearance of the Russians on the Ukrainian Polish border and the increased aggressiveness of the Russians against Latvia and Lithuania and Estonia. Is that an increased risk for America.

From your perspective as an American, how big a disaster and a danger would the collapse of Ukraine and the appearance of the Russians on the Ukrainian Polish border and the increased aggressiveness of the Russians against Latvia and Lithuania and Estonia. Is that an increased risk for America.

There is an unbelievable increased risk to America if, for no other reason we know that Putin will not stop. There there will be huge increases in risk to our NATO allies, which are our direct friends and in many cases neighbors. The world economy would certainly change. Not only would there be risk to our European neighbors and NATO neighbors, in the United States would be empowering a murderous regime. And let's not forget that the world is watching. China is watching, North Korea is watching. At what America's tolerance for defending democracy is. They would feel very much empowered were the United States to begin to sit back at this point and allow Ukraine to crumble.

There is an unbelievable increased risk to America if, for no other reason we know that Putin will not stop. There there will be huge increases in risk to our NATO allies, which are our direct friends and in many cases neighbors. The world economy would certainly change. Not only would there be risk to our European neighbors and NATO neighbors, in the United States would be empowering a murderous regime. And let's not forget that the world is watching. China is watching, North Korea is watching. At what America's tolerance for defending democracy is. They would feel very much empowered were the United States to begin to sit back at this point and allow Ukraine to crumble.

Did this increase your belief that we have to pass some kind of program to get military assistance to Ukraine to stop Russia.

Did this increase your belief that we have to pass some kind of program to get military assistance to Ukraine to stop Russia.

It certainly was convincing to me that we as Americans cannot sit back on our hills and watch this, Nor are we a people that would allow such cruelty to continue to take place. One of two things is going to happen in Ukraine. Either it will continue to be a democracy, as imperfect as it may be, or it's going to fall and crumble to a Marxist Socialist kg be card carrying dictator. One of those two things are going to happen, and it will not remain a democracy if the United States does not participate. There is no question about that Ukraine is on the verge of losing ground right now. At this time or at the point that I was in Kiev, I learned that Russia occupies twenty eight percent of Ukrainian territory right now, and they're taking incoming fire every single night over there. So the likelihood they're going to be giving up ground soon without additional equipment is pretty high.

It certainly was convincing to me that we as Americans cannot sit back on our hills and watch this, Nor are we a people that would allow such cruelty to continue to take place. One of two things is going to happen in Ukraine. Either it will continue to be a democracy, as imperfect as it may be, or it's going to fall and crumble to a Marxist Socialist kg be card carrying dictator. One of those two things are going to happen, and it will not remain a democracy if the United States does not participate. There is no question about that Ukraine is on the verge of losing ground right now. At this time or at the point that I was in Kiev, I learned that Russia occupies twenty eight percent of Ukrainian territory right now, and they're taking incoming fire every single night over there. So the likelihood they're going to be giving up ground soon without additional equipment is pretty high.

What do you say back home when you have constituents who walk up in for whatever reason, they're either skeptical or opposed to helping Ukraine, what do you say, having actually been there.

What do you say back home when you have constituents who walk up in for whatever reason, they're either skeptical or opposed to helping Ukraine, what do you say, having actually been there.

I'm going to be saying that until you've stood in the dark, dank, smelly, moldy basement of a Ukrainian school where one hundred and thirty six people were crowded in and imprisoned for twenty seven consecutive days, with very little to survive on where people were allowed to die in that basement and decaying bodies were piling up in the corner. And until you've heard those stories from the people that lived it and witnessed it and looked through their tears, you can't have a real appreciation for what's taking place over there. And I don't believe that there is an American amongst us that could have listened to those stories, smelled that smell, imagine those bodies in a corner, and said no, the United States still should not help.

I'm going to be saying that until you've stood in the dark, dank, smelly, moldy basement of a Ukrainian school where one hundred and thirty six people were crowded in and imprisoned for twenty seven consecutive days, with very little to survive on where people were allowed to die in that basement and decaying bodies were piling up in the corner. And until you've heard those stories from the people that lived it and witnessed it and looked through their tears, you can't have a real appreciation for what's taking place over there. And I don't believe that there is an American amongst us that could have listened to those stories, smelled that smell, imagine those bodies in a corner, and said no, the United States still should not help.

I have to say, as a're a Speaker of the House, I have enormous respect for what Mike Johnson is going through. A speaker, I think he has the hardest assignment of any speaker since the Civil War. The margin virtually doesn't exist. Do you think you'll be able to convince enough of your colleagues to get something through in the next week or two.

I have to say, as a're a Speaker of the House, I have enormous respect for what Mike Johnson is going through. A speaker, I think he has the hardest assignment of any speaker since the Civil War. The margin virtually doesn't exist. Do you think you'll be able to convince enough of your colleagues to get something through in the next week or two.

I certainly know that I'm doing everything that I can do to convince us to get something through. And you're absolutely right, Speaker Johnson is a remarkable man. He's a great leader. I believe he's also got his priorities straight. It's been very difficult for him to bring something forward like Ukraine while we're still fighting to fund our own government. It's been very difficult to pay attention to Ukraine while we have such a critical issue such as FAISA that is scheduled to expire here in just a few days. It's been tough for him not only to deal with all these issues, but to keep those prioritized and keep us focused here in the House. And I have the utmost respect for him, and I believe that he will ultimately come to the conclusion that the right thing to do, once we've dealt with these other issues that affect Americans today, is to begin the conversation around Ukraine and what we can responsibly do. A lot of folks believe that all we have to do is just simply send a cashiers check over there, and that's just not the case. We need to double down on sanctions. I learned when I was in Ukraine. The sanctions are not working, and there are many sanctions that are available to help bring Russia to its neees that we've not yet implemented. There's the least loan program. We've heard a lot of talk about that would help protect the American taxpayer, and there's also the possibility that we could see some Russian assets to pay for this. There are lots of different angles that we should take, and I'm really confident that once we get our top issues dealt with here for America, that the Speaker is going to be willing for us to turn some attention towards Ukraine.

I certainly know that I'm doing everything that I can do to convince us to get something through. And you're absolutely right, Speaker Johnson is a remarkable man. He's a great leader. I believe he's also got his priorities straight. It's been very difficult for him to bring something forward like Ukraine while we're still fighting to fund our own government. It's been very difficult to pay attention to Ukraine while we have such a critical issue such as FAISA that is scheduled to expire here in just a few days. It's been tough for him not only to deal with all these issues, but to keep those prioritized and keep us focused here in the House. And I have the utmost respect for him, and I believe that he will ultimately come to the conclusion that the right thing to do, once we've dealt with these other issues that affect Americans today, is to begin the conversation around Ukraine and what we can responsibly do. A lot of folks believe that all we have to do is just simply send a cashiers check over there, and that's just not the case. We need to double down on sanctions. I learned when I was in Ukraine. The sanctions are not working, and there are many sanctions that are available to help bring Russia to its neees that we've not yet implemented. There's the least loan program. We've heard a lot of talk about that would help protect the American taxpayer, and there's also the possibility that we could see some Russian assets to pay for this. There are lots of different angles that we should take, and I'm really confident that once we get our top issues dealt with here for America, that the Speaker is going to be willing for us to turn some attention towards Ukraine.

Well, listen, I'm delighted with your citizenship and your courage, your willingness to go into a war zone, and the clear, decisive message you're bringing back home, and I just want to thank you for your service to America.

Well, listen, I'm delighted with your citizenship and your courage, your willingness to go into a war zone, and the clear, decisive message you're bringing back home, and I just want to thank you for your service to America.

Well, thank you. It is certainly a privilege and an honor to be able to serve.

Well, thank you. It is certainly a privilege and an honor to be able to serve.

Thank you to my guest, Governor Jim Gilmour and Congressman Chuck Edwards. You can learn more about why the United States should continue to fund Ukraine on our show page at newsworld dot com. Newsworld is produced by Ginglish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley, Special thanks to the team at Ginglish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give us to review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of Newtsworld can sign up for my three free weekly columns at Gingrich three sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is newts World.

Thank you to my guest, Governor Jim Gilmour and Congressman Chuck Edwards. You can learn more about why the United States should continue to fund Ukraine on our show page at newsworld dot com. Newsworld is produced by Ginglish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley, Special thanks to the team at Ginglish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give us to review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of Newtsworld can sign up for my three free weekly columns at Gingrich three sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is newts World.