On this episode of Nuts World. Since Russia invaded Ukraine in February twenty twenty two, Yaroslav Trofumov has spent months at the heart of the conflict, very often on its front lines. In his new book, Our Enemies Will Vanish the Russian Invasion and Ukraine's War of Independence, he traces the war's decisive moments to show how Ukraine and its allies have turned the tide against Russia, one of the world's great military powers, in a modern day battle of David and Goliath. Putin had intended to conquer an annex Ukraine with a vicious blitzkrig redrawing the map of Europe in a few short weeks with seismic geopolitical consequences. But in the face of this existential threat, the Ukrainian people fought back, turning what looked like certain defeat into a great moral victory, even as the territorial battle continues to this day. For Trufumov, this war is deeply personal. He grew up in Kiev and his family has lived there for generations. Here to talk about his new book, I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, Yaroslav Trefemov. He is the chief Foreign affairs correspondent of the Wall Street Journal and was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize and International Reporting for two consecutive years. Jaroslav, welcome and thank you for joining me on newts World.

On this episode of Nuts World. Since Russia invaded Ukraine in February twenty twenty two, Yaroslav Trofumov has spent months at the heart of the conflict, very often on its front lines. In his new book, Our Enemies Will Vanish the Russian Invasion and Ukraine's War of Independence, he traces the war's decisive moments to show how Ukraine and its allies have turned the tide against Russia, one of the world's great military powers, in a modern day battle of David and Goliath. Putin had intended to conquer an annex Ukraine with a vicious blitzkrig redrawing the map of Europe in a few short weeks with seismic geopolitical consequences. But in the face of this existential threat, the Ukrainian people fought back, turning what looked like certain defeat into a great moral victory, even as the territorial battle continues to this day. For Trufumov, this war is deeply personal. He grew up in Kiev and his family has lived there for generations. Here to talk about his new book, I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, Yaroslav Trefemov. He is the chief Foreign affairs correspondent of the Wall Street Journal and was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize and International Reporting for two consecutive years. Jaroslav, welcome and thank you for joining me on newts World.

Great to be in the show. Thank you.

Great to be in the show. Thank you.

You were born in Ukraine and came back to write about the Russian invasion in twenty twenty two. What was Ukraine like when you were growing up?

You were born in Ukraine and came back to write about the Russian invasion in twenty twenty two. What was Ukraine like when you were growing up?

Oh, you know, back nime it was the Soviet Union was no such thing as an independent Ukraine. The current blue and yellow fog of Ukraine was outlawed. He would go to prison for even drawing it on a piece of paper. You know, the language of instruction must causals Russian. And you know, the Soviet Union was pursuing a very efficient policy of for rassification. The reason why half the people in Ukraine speak Russian today is because of that policy, because their parents or grandparents you to speak Ukrainian.

Oh, you know, back nime it was the Soviet Union was no such thing as an independent Ukraine. The current blue and yellow fog of Ukraine was outlawed. He would go to prison for even drawing it on a piece of paper. You know, the language of instruction must causals Russian. And you know, the Soviet Union was pursuing a very efficient policy of for rassification. The reason why half the people in Ukraine speak Russian today is because of that policy, because their parents or grandparents you to speak Ukrainian.

Was it a happy place? Was it the place you wanted to leave or what was your feeling?

Was it a happy place? Was it the place you wanted to leave or what was your feeling?

Well, you know it was a place that I left. I left it in nineteen ninety before the Suviecunion collapsed, and the difference between Ukraine today in Ukraine then is staggering because an entire new society was born in those thirty plus years, and the generations that have come into being in a free, independent Ukraine are hugely different from their parents and grandparents because they don't have that fear that was built into the Soviet system. They have the creativity which they have shown in this war, and they have this desire, the really strong desire to remain free. If you look at the history of independent Ukraine, out of the six presidents it has had on Knew, one was reelected and twice the weare uprisings when there was an attempt to rig the vote or to basically create a more authoritarian system.

Well, you know it was a place that I left. I left it in nineteen ninety before the Suviecunion collapsed, and the difference between Ukraine today in Ukraine then is staggering because an entire new society was born in those thirty plus years, and the generations that have come into being in a free, independent Ukraine are hugely different from their parents and grandparents because they don't have that fear that was built into the Soviet system. They have the creativity which they have shown in this war, and they have this desire, the really strong desire to remain free. If you look at the history of independent Ukraine, out of the six presidents it has had on Knew, one was reelected and twice the weare uprisings when there was an attempt to rig the vote or to basically create a more authoritarian system.

Ukraine has been wrestling with and steadily, I think, becoming a freer society in a more Western society, which may be part of the threat that Putin felt that if Ukraine was really successful, that the signal that would send to Russians who were living in a place that was not successful would in fact have endangered his whole regime. Because you're so knowledgeable, what do you want every American to know about Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Ukraine has been wrestling with and steadily, I think, becoming a freer society in a more Western society, which may be part of the threat that Putin felt that if Ukraine was really successful, that the signal that would send to Russians who were living in a place that was not successful would in fact have endangered his whole regime. Because you're so knowledgeable, what do you want every American to know about Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Well, thank you so much. I think the invasion of Ukraine was the first step in put in this plan for a much greater rebuilding first the Soviet Empire and then rebuilding the influence that Soviet Union used to have in half of Europe. And they, you know, Putting made it clear when he proposed Head of THEES He's peace offering the rolling back of NATO essentially so the patrol of worldly American and other Western forces from NATO countries what used to be the former Warsaw Pact. He clearly sees Ukraine as part of Russia. He has written this essay six months before the war, very long historical essay that is called on the historical unity of the Russian and Ukrainian peoples. And if he had been able to get away with his initial plan of conquering and supporting Ukraine, and it would be having a war in another European country. Now.

Well, thank you so much. I think the invasion of Ukraine was the first step in put in this plan for a much greater rebuilding first the Soviet Empire and then rebuilding the influence that Soviet Union used to have in half of Europe. And they, you know, Putting made it clear when he proposed Head of THEES He's peace offering the rolling back of NATO essentially so the patrol of worldly American and other Western forces from NATO countries what used to be the former Warsaw Pact. He clearly sees Ukraine as part of Russia. He has written this essay six months before the war, very long historical essay that is called on the historical unity of the Russian and Ukrainian peoples. And if he had been able to get away with his initial plan of conquering and supporting Ukraine, and it would be having a war in another European country. Now.

Probably my sense was that if he could have won pretty decisively, that Poland and Estonia, a lot Fia in Lithuania would all have been under threat. But I'm curious because you know, the American Chairman of the Joint Chiefs himself said in public and I think in the Senate hearing that he thought that the Russians would get to Kiev in three days, and my hunter that that's what Putin's generals were telling him, wasn't in that sense. The ability of Ukraine to slow down and stop the Russian offensive sort of a remarkable shock to everybody.

Probably my sense was that if he could have won pretty decisively, that Poland and Estonia, a lot Fia in Lithuania would all have been under threat. But I'm curious because you know, the American Chairman of the Joint Chiefs himself said in public and I think in the Senate hearing that he thought that the Russians would get to Kiev in three days, and my hunter that that's what Putin's generals were telling him, wasn't in that sense. The ability of Ukraine to slow down and stop the Russian offensive sort of a remarkable shock to everybody.

I think Ukraine was and remains today an extremely misunderstood country, misunderstood by and misappreciated, underappreciated by the Russians and by the West until recently. And that comes from this lack of understanding just how much it has changed in three decades of independence. The Ukraine that was around in twenty twenty two is not the Ukraine that people used to know in the nineties, the corrupt, hopeless place of just finding its way as a nation. There was a sense of purpose, there was a pride, there was an experience of fighting the Russians, because, let's not forget it, the war began in twenty fourteen, not inwenty twenty two. Fourteen thousand people died in the war in Dunbas in twenty fourteen. At the time, the West didn't help Ukraine. The West by President Obama famously said there is nothing the US can do to stop the Russians from controlling Ukraine. Yes, puting belief that the Ukrainians will not fight, that the will surrender and mass and in a matter of days Kiv will be taken over. And so died the West into the US government to close the embassy in Kiev, pulled out the diplomats, and basically gave Ukraine a little bit of weapons for insurgency, kind of like the Mujahidi in Afghanistan, you know, a few boxes of javelins, some stingers and good luck. So the expectation was that Ukraine is a functioning state, which ceased to exist with a new week or two.

I think Ukraine was and remains today an extremely misunderstood country, misunderstood by and misappreciated, underappreciated by the Russians and by the West until recently. And that comes from this lack of understanding just how much it has changed in three decades of independence. The Ukraine that was around in twenty twenty two is not the Ukraine that people used to know in the nineties, the corrupt, hopeless place of just finding its way as a nation. There was a sense of purpose, there was a pride, there was an experience of fighting the Russians, because, let's not forget it, the war began in twenty fourteen, not inwenty twenty two. Fourteen thousand people died in the war in Dunbas in twenty fourteen. At the time, the West didn't help Ukraine. The West by President Obama famously said there is nothing the US can do to stop the Russians from controlling Ukraine. Yes, puting belief that the Ukrainians will not fight, that the will surrender and mass and in a matter of days Kiv will be taken over. And so died the West into the US government to close the embassy in Kiev, pulled out the diplomats, and basically gave Ukraine a little bit of weapons for insurgency, kind of like the Mujahidi in Afghanistan, you know, a few boxes of javelins, some stingers and good luck. So the expectation was that Ukraine is a functioning state, which ceased to exist with a new week or two.

Because I remember at the time that the Obama administration sort of had an attitude of we'll send you meals ready to eat and will send you sleeping bags. Well, we won't send you any lethal weapons. One of the major changes occurred. Trump authorized javelins, you know, are very effective tank killers, and that part of what hit the rush was they in fact were really losing equipment and losing vehicles, and because of a very intelligent use of drones and of GPS, Ukrainians forces in that opening blitzkrig were able to just chop the columns up, hit the front in the back, leaving everything in between isolated. And it was an astonishing campaign in the initial surge, and I think the Russian logistics system was so bad that they just kind of fell apart.

Because I remember at the time that the Obama administration sort of had an attitude of we'll send you meals ready to eat and will send you sleeping bags. Well, we won't send you any lethal weapons. One of the major changes occurred. Trump authorized javelins, you know, are very effective tank killers, and that part of what hit the rush was they in fact were really losing equipment and losing vehicles, and because of a very intelligent use of drones and of GPS, Ukrainians forces in that opening blitzkrig were able to just chop the columns up, hit the front in the back, leaving everything in between isolated. And it was an astonishing campaign in the initial surge, and I think the Russian logistics system was so bad that they just kind of fell apart.

Right, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the javelins. Ukraine only had ninety javelins when the war began nine zero against thousands of thousands of Russian tanks armored vehicles. The British were more courageous and they supplied about two thousand in law anto net missiles, which I did see with my own eyes of being deployed in the battlefield. I was in Ukraine since January and I wasn't key of when the war began. But really the initial fight compelling the initial Russian attempt to take Yev was mostly carry out using old school sovietween the weapons, artillery, and antier defenses the Ukraine managed to preserve and thanks so it was really the old Ukrainian army used its vintage ammunition and vintage resources that repelled the initial Russian drive. Only after that did the US and Allies start supplying American artillery, multiple rocket systems, and everything else that came after that, including the sixteens that are now win the pipeline.

Right, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the javelins. Ukraine only had ninety javelins when the war began nine zero against thousands of thousands of Russian tanks armored vehicles. The British were more courageous and they supplied about two thousand in law anto net missiles, which I did see with my own eyes of being deployed in the battlefield. I was in Ukraine since January and I wasn't key of when the war began. But really the initial fight compelling the initial Russian attempt to take Yev was mostly carry out using old school sovietween the weapons, artillery, and antier defenses the Ukraine managed to preserve and thanks so it was really the old Ukrainian army used its vintage ammunition and vintage resources that repelled the initial Russian drive. Only after that did the US and Allies start supplying American artillery, multiple rocket systems, and everything else that came after that, including the sixteens that are now win the pipeline.

To what extent do you think the situation really dramatically changed because the Russian system just broke down? And to what extent was it the sort of methodical organization of the Ukrainian people.

To what extent do you think the situation really dramatically changed because the Russian system just broke down? And to what extent was it the sort of methodical organization of the Ukrainian people.

I think it's both. I think on one hand, the Russians clearly weren't prepared for a fight, and I remember talking to people around Zelenski before the boy began, and you know, the SAI director had just flown to Kiev to warn them in great detail about the coming invasion, and they were really disbelieving because they were looking at the number of soldiers on the Ukraine's borders. It was fewer than two hundred thousand troops. They were shaking their heads and saying, how are they going to invade the largest country in Europe by landmasks other than Russian with such a small army. And they were correct in retrospect, because Putting's entire war plan was premised to the idea that Ukraine will just collapse, I will not fight, And you know, the troops coming to Kiev were carrying parade uniforms for them, and the commander of Ukraine Forces, Journals Illusioning, really decided to trade territory for preservational forces for times. So instead of fighting for every village on the border, he pulled back the forces and then he attacked the Russian supply lines that were overstretched and really made it impossible within a month of the Russian army besieging Kiev to continue the siege, and so they had to withdraw Suffric treminous losses at the end of March. I think what also changed is that Putting had this idea that a big Soviet army would be finding a small Soviet army, in which case the outcome would be preordained. But Ukraine, though it didn't receive little weapons except for huge avelins from the West in the eight years since the conflict began twenty fourteen, they didn't receive a lot of training. So there were British, Canadian American instructors training Ukrainian officers in native Uktrine in this giant camp called Yavodiv on the Polish border, and they trained them in the idea of mission command, which meant that commanders on lower levels had full authority to engage the enemy as long as it was within the objective set by the Central staff. In a conflict where Russia was advancing from eleven different directions at the same time, this ability to delegate this freedom that the Ukrainian commanders had it's over really saved Ukraine. And this sort of system is only possible in a country that is more or less democratic, where the army functions and trust, as opposed to the Russian army, which really is based on fear, fear of superiors, in which the bad news don't reported up the chain of command for the fear of angering superiors and therefore bad decisions keep being made.

I think it's both. I think on one hand, the Russians clearly weren't prepared for a fight, and I remember talking to people around Zelenski before the boy began, and you know, the SAI director had just flown to Kiev to warn them in great detail about the coming invasion, and they were really disbelieving because they were looking at the number of soldiers on the Ukraine's borders. It was fewer than two hundred thousand troops. They were shaking their heads and saying, how are they going to invade the largest country in Europe by landmasks other than Russian with such a small army. And they were correct in retrospect, because Putting's entire war plan was premised to the idea that Ukraine will just collapse, I will not fight, And you know, the troops coming to Kiev were carrying parade uniforms for them, and the commander of Ukraine Forces, Journals Illusioning, really decided to trade territory for preservational forces for times. So instead of fighting for every village on the border, he pulled back the forces and then he attacked the Russian supply lines that were overstretched and really made it impossible within a month of the Russian army besieging Kiev to continue the siege, and so they had to withdraw Suffric treminous losses at the end of March. I think what also changed is that Putting had this idea that a big Soviet army would be finding a small Soviet army, in which case the outcome would be preordained. But Ukraine, though it didn't receive little weapons except for huge avelins from the West in the eight years since the conflict began twenty fourteen, they didn't receive a lot of training. So there were British, Canadian American instructors training Ukrainian officers in native Uktrine in this giant camp called Yavodiv on the Polish border, and they trained them in the idea of mission command, which meant that commanders on lower levels had full authority to engage the enemy as long as it was within the objective set by the Central staff. In a conflict where Russia was advancing from eleven different directions at the same time, this ability to delegate this freedom that the Ukrainian commanders had it's over really saved Ukraine. And this sort of system is only possible in a country that is more or less democratic, where the army functions and trust, as opposed to the Russian army, which really is based on fear, fear of superiors, in which the bad news don't reported up the chain of command for the fear of angering superiors and therefore bad decisions keep being made.

And of course that model was one which we had developed for a long period of time, which allows us to delegate authority down to sergeants and corporals that in some armies get stuck up in majors and lieutenant colonels. I'm curious, so when you mentioned earlier, correctly they fighting in the DNBAS that actually was the same period as the occupation of Crimea. What is your sense about whether in the long run Crimea is returned to Ukraine or Crimea becomes Russian And do you see that different than the fighting and the Dambas well.

And of course that model was one which we had developed for a long period of time, which allows us to delegate authority down to sergeants and corporals that in some armies get stuck up in majors and lieutenant colonels. I'm curious, so when you mentioned earlier, correctly they fighting in the DNBAS that actually was the same period as the occupation of Crimea. What is your sense about whether in the long run Crimea is returned to Ukraine or Crimea becomes Russian And do you see that different than the fighting and the Dambas well.

I mean the conflict in Donbas and Crimea was different at the inception because the Ukrainian army did not fight for Crimea, putting too advantage of Mayhem and Kiev change of government, you know, president being ousted and Russia, which had regular forces in Crimea and just seized it, and the Ukrainian soldiers did not resist. Ukrainian have much of an army either at the time. In Dunbas, a few months later, the Ukrainian army tried to resist, but by then there was this influx of volunteer units, people just picking up arms to defend the Ukraine, and they were much more successful in Dunbas. And one thirdy of Dunbas was in Russian hands until the full scale of vision of twenty twenty two. In both areas, there's been a great demographic change. In Dunbas, most of the population has fled. Nobody wanted to live into the Russian occupation, so people fled to Ukraine. The rest of Ukraine, people fled to Europe, people fled to Russia. But there's nothing to do. And then he had skill of hunsk it run the gangsters every man From eighteen to sixty pretty much has been conscripted two years ago and sent to die, and there is no economy. Cremea has seen an outflow of all so hundreds of thousands, maybe million people Crimean Tatars, Ukrainians others who are lowered Ukraine and a huge influx of settlers from mainland Russia. Ukraine's goal remains to liberate Crimea one day. How realisticant is right now? Right now it's Russia that's on the offensive an Ukraine's army is starved with amminition and has to retreat because US military it has been cut off for several months now.

I mean the conflict in Donbas and Crimea was different at the inception because the Ukrainian army did not fight for Crimea, putting too advantage of Mayhem and Kiev change of government, you know, president being ousted and Russia, which had regular forces in Crimea and just seized it, and the Ukrainian soldiers did not resist. Ukrainian have much of an army either at the time. In Dunbas, a few months later, the Ukrainian army tried to resist, but by then there was this influx of volunteer units, people just picking up arms to defend the Ukraine, and they were much more successful in Dunbas. And one thirdy of Dunbas was in Russian hands until the full scale of vision of twenty twenty two. In both areas, there's been a great demographic change. In Dunbas, most of the population has fled. Nobody wanted to live into the Russian occupation, so people fled to Ukraine. The rest of Ukraine, people fled to Europe, people fled to Russia. But there's nothing to do. And then he had skill of hunsk it run the gangsters every man From eighteen to sixty pretty much has been conscripted two years ago and sent to die, and there is no economy. Cremea has seen an outflow of all so hundreds of thousands, maybe million people Crimean Tatars, Ukrainians others who are lowered Ukraine and a huge influx of settlers from mainland Russia. Ukraine's goal remains to liberate Crimea one day. How realisticant is right now? Right now it's Russia that's on the offensive an Ukraine's army is starved with amminition and has to retreat because US military it has been cut off for several months now.

It strikes me that there's a real key message though in they're well, Ukraine has not tried to retake Crimea. They've had a brilliant maritime campaign in which they have shattered the Russian black sea fleet way that nobody would have predicted back two years ago. I mean, isn't that one of the great Ukrainian success stories of this campaign?

It strikes me that there's a real key message though in they're well, Ukraine has not tried to retake Crimea. They've had a brilliant maritime campaign in which they have shattered the Russian black sea fleet way that nobody would have predicted back two years ago. I mean, isn't that one of the great Ukrainian success stories of this campaign?

Oh? Absolutely absolutely, And it's also I think it's a model of the Turrens that Ukraine is trying to do to replicate in the air domain. Now, what happened is that Ukraine demonstrated not just that it's able to take down several ships in the Russian Black Sea fleet, including the flagship We're walking by dozens of ships and strike the headquarters, but also demonstrated its ability to strike the part of Numberosisk, which is not in Crimea, which is in the normal Caucasus, which is Russia's most important port. It's not just the base of the fleet, but this is the most important port for Russian all exports. And the moment Ukraine did show it can strike it, Russia really stopped its attempts to interfere with shipping from Odessa Ukraine the import and so the blockade of Edessa collapsed, and now Desa is shipping more goods out of Ukrainian into Ukraine than it was before the war. So Russia's attempt to jungle Ukraine economically was thwarted, and by creating a very credible threat to Russia's own economy. And I think that's what the Crain's trying to do now by using drones to strike oil refineries and other strategic industries inside Russia hundreds of miles away. I mean really, strike was nearly a thousand miles away in this sort of two for tat that Ukrainians hope will make Russians think twice about hitting Ukrainian infrastructure, which they've been doing with great frequency using North Korean ballistic missiles and made drones in addition to Russia's own weaponry.

Oh? Absolutely absolutely, And it's also I think it's a model of the Turrens that Ukraine is trying to do to replicate in the air domain. Now, what happened is that Ukraine demonstrated not just that it's able to take down several ships in the Russian Black Sea fleet, including the flagship We're walking by dozens of ships and strike the headquarters, but also demonstrated its ability to strike the part of Numberosisk, which is not in Crimea, which is in the normal Caucasus, which is Russia's most important port. It's not just the base of the fleet, but this is the most important port for Russian all exports. And the moment Ukraine did show it can strike it, Russia really stopped its attempts to interfere with shipping from Odessa Ukraine the import and so the blockade of Edessa collapsed, and now Desa is shipping more goods out of Ukrainian into Ukraine than it was before the war. So Russia's attempt to jungle Ukraine economically was thwarted, and by creating a very credible threat to Russia's own economy. And I think that's what the Crain's trying to do now by using drones to strike oil refineries and other strategic industries inside Russia hundreds of miles away. I mean really, strike was nearly a thousand miles away in this sort of two for tat that Ukrainians hope will make Russians think twice about hitting Ukrainian infrastructure, which they've been doing with great frequency using North Korean ballistic missiles and made drones in addition to Russia's own weaponry.

One of the surprises of this war is how limited the Russian military industrial complex was and how much they've had to buy from Iran and China and North Korea. I mean, I don't think anybody would have expected North Korea and Iran to become major suppliers of military capability, but it's clear that the internal Russian system is literally not capable of meeting the challenge that they now got. Well.

One of the surprises of this war is how limited the Russian military industrial complex was and how much they've had to buy from Iran and China and North Korea. I mean, I don't think anybody would have expected North Korea and Iran to become major suppliers of military capability, but it's clear that the internal Russian system is literally not capable of meeting the challenge that they now got. Well.

Ye absolutely, I think corruption was part of that, both corruption in the military industries, corruption and intelligence services, because allegedly all this Ukrainian officials and military commanders were on Russian peril and Putting was expecting them to switch sides on the day of the invasion, and they didn't because probably a lot of that money was cammed along the way, thankfully for your Crain and they having a lot of mysterious death of Russian military industry, you know, CEOs and other senior officials since then and detentions and corruption trials. I think Russia thought it is a much stronger power than it is because it showcased its mighty in Syria, and in Syria it was very successful. But in Syria, turn To played about three three thousand troops, and the rest of the world thought the rest of the Russian army is as good as those best formations and the best pilots and the best planes of the Central Syria. But the rest of the Russian army was not that bad. The rest of the Russian Army was still stuck in the Soviet era.

Ye absolutely, I think corruption was part of that, both corruption in the military industries, corruption and intelligence services, because allegedly all this Ukrainian officials and military commanders were on Russian peril and Putting was expecting them to switch sides on the day of the invasion, and they didn't because probably a lot of that money was cammed along the way, thankfully for your Crain and they having a lot of mysterious death of Russian military industry, you know, CEOs and other senior officials since then and detentions and corruption trials. I think Russia thought it is a much stronger power than it is because it showcased its mighty in Syria, and in Syria it was very successful. But in Syria, turn To played about three three thousand troops, and the rest of the world thought the rest of the Russian army is as good as those best formations and the best pilots and the best planes of the Central Syria. But the rest of the Russian army was not that bad. The rest of the Russian Army was still stuck in the Soviet era.

Well, and of course the classic Soviet are involved such a huge force that Putin can't replicate it. I mean, whatever he's trying to do, he's not going to get the level of power that Stalin had and the sheer im mobilization that occurred in World War Two.

Well, and of course the classic Soviet are involved such a huge force that Putin can't replicate it. I mean, whatever he's trying to do, he's not going to get the level of power that Stalin had and the sheer im mobilization that occurred in World War Two.

Let's run by history, and when the Soviet Union invated Finland the outset of the Second World War, Finland had about three and a half million people. Soviet Unions sent nine hundred thousand soldiers to Finland, still failed to take kill Sinki. Finland still held them and they lost some territory. But they survived as an independent country. And that's why the Ukrainians and they were watching the Russian sent two hundred thousand men into Ukraine, a country of forty million people, or scratching the hands and saying, what are they thinking.

Let's run by history, and when the Soviet Union invated Finland the outset of the Second World War, Finland had about three and a half million people. Soviet Unions sent nine hundred thousand soldiers to Finland, still failed to take kill Sinki. Finland still held them and they lost some territory. But they survived as an independent country. And that's why the Ukrainians and they were watching the Russian sent two hundred thousand men into Ukraine, a country of forty million people, or scratching the hands and saying, what are they thinking.

I haven't seen Putin able to generate the sheer combat power that Stalin did. I mean, when Stalin understood how good the Fins were and how hard they were going to be to beat Ian, he just really poured an enormous amount of combat power into the Finish border. You haven't seen anything like that scale from pood.

I haven't seen Putin able to generate the sheer combat power that Stalin did. I mean, when Stalin understood how good the Fins were and how hard they were going to be to beat Ian, he just really poured an enormous amount of combat power into the Finish border. You haven't seen anything like that scale from pood.

Well. First of all, Russia is not the Soviet Union. It's a smaller country with an aging demographic. Not a lot of kids were born in the nineteen nineties because of all the economic troubles there, so they not actually that many young men who are that are available to fight, and a lot of them motifight. So Puting for political reasons, refused to mobilize until losing Harkif and Hasson in September twenty twenty two, and so by then his professional army was pretty much destroyed. But when he did mobilize, three hundred thousand soldiers more than a million Russians fled the country. And that's the difference because they couldn't flee into Stalion, but in current Russia they could just stop in a plane flight to Dubai. The ticket to Dubai was eight thousand dollars one way on the day you out of the mobilization an economy class.

Well. First of all, Russia is not the Soviet Union. It's a smaller country with an aging demographic. Not a lot of kids were born in the nineteen nineties because of all the economic troubles there, so they not actually that many young men who are that are available to fight, and a lot of them motifight. So Puting for political reasons, refused to mobilize until losing Harkif and Hasson in September twenty twenty two, and so by then his professional army was pretty much destroyed. But when he did mobilize, three hundred thousand soldiers more than a million Russians fled the country. And that's the difference because they couldn't flee into Stalion, but in current Russia they could just stop in a plane flight to Dubai. The ticket to Dubai was eight thousand dollars one way on the day you out of the mobilization an economy class.

I have to say, someone who's making a lot of money out of those airplane flights.

I have to say, someone who's making a lot of money out of those airplane flights.

Well, certainly, yes, yes, And then there's also the issue of gear. You know, what are you going to arm these trips with. You know, the Russian military industries are not able to produce what the Soviets are producing. The Ukrainians knocked down on the Russian awax planes. They are irreplaceable because Russia cannot make them. There's are Soviet legacy planes. Half of their staff that's in them was made in Ukraine, and the Ukraine had the main aircraft engine plant in the Soviet Union in that region. And the same goes for lots of other stuff. So right now Ukraine destroys probably three times as many tanks and how it serves in a month. Then Russia is able to either build or repair for you know, using salvaged parts and really old models. This mathematics of attrition actually doesn't work in Russia's favor as long as Ukraine is able to draw on the industrial base of the West and on the money from the way.

Well, certainly, yes, yes, And then there's also the issue of gear. You know, what are you going to arm these trips with. You know, the Russian military industries are not able to produce what the Soviets are producing. The Ukrainians knocked down on the Russian awax planes. They are irreplaceable because Russia cannot make them. There's are Soviet legacy planes. Half of their staff that's in them was made in Ukraine, and the Ukraine had the main aircraft engine plant in the Soviet Union in that region. And the same goes for lots of other stuff. So right now Ukraine destroys probably three times as many tanks and how it serves in a month. Then Russia is able to either build or repair for you know, using salvaged parts and really old models. This mathematics of attrition actually doesn't work in Russia's favor as long as Ukraine is able to draw on the industrial base of the West and on the money from the way.

It's very important that we communicate with our listeners how vital it is that the United States sustain its support and sustain the flow of ammunition and equipment. But I have to take a brief, won't ask you about one of the more startling things that has to I think have some impact on Putent's thinking, and that was the attack at the concert hall outside Moscow where Islamic gunmen killed over one hundred and thirty people. Then there's a lot of arguing about exactly who sent them and who Different people are claiming different things, But I think this was the biggest Russian disaster since Beslon. So what extent is that kind of attack inside Russia shake the system or shake people's confidence in the system.

It's very important that we communicate with our listeners how vital it is that the United States sustain its support and sustain the flow of ammunition and equipment. But I have to take a brief, won't ask you about one of the more startling things that has to I think have some impact on Putent's thinking, and that was the attack at the concert hall outside Moscow where Islamic gunmen killed over one hundred and thirty people. Then there's a lot of arguing about exactly who sent them and who Different people are claiming different things, But I think this was the biggest Russian disaster since Beslon. So what extent is that kind of attack inside Russia shake the system or shake people's confidence in the system.

Well, I'd say hard to measure, because there's no longer any opinion polling in Russia. If you say the wrong thing to the upholster on the phone, you can get arrested. People have been putting really in the depth of his soul beliefs that Ukraine was somehow responsible for the attack and crocus because if you don't believe that that, you have to admit the you've been fighting the wrong enemy. His entire worldview would shatter, and the image of Russia as he's building it, because you know, in the Russian propaganda, Russia is now the leader of the global South, and the Muslim world is its ally, and it's fighting against colonial domination by the West of the rest of the world, you know, on behalf of the global majority. He gave his speech saying it's impossible for Muslims to attack Russia because we was actual friends with Muslims. I mean, obviously lots of Muslim countries were also attacked by Islamic states. They didn't stop them from killing. Most of the victims of Islamic states were actually Muslims. Look, it's what they've been doing in the know, in Iraq and Syria and other places in twenty fourteen and fifteen, I think putting lives in a delusionary world, I mean, and the reason why in the vated Ukraine is the biggest proof, because he really believed that the Ukrainians are Russians and will not fight.

Well, I'd say hard to measure, because there's no longer any opinion polling in Russia. If you say the wrong thing to the upholster on the phone, you can get arrested. People have been putting really in the depth of his soul beliefs that Ukraine was somehow responsible for the attack and crocus because if you don't believe that that, you have to admit the you've been fighting the wrong enemy. His entire worldview would shatter, and the image of Russia as he's building it, because you know, in the Russian propaganda, Russia is now the leader of the global South, and the Muslim world is its ally, and it's fighting against colonial domination by the West of the rest of the world, you know, on behalf of the global majority. He gave his speech saying it's impossible for Muslims to attack Russia because we was actual friends with Muslims. I mean, obviously lots of Muslim countries were also attacked by Islamic states. They didn't stop them from killing. Most of the victims of Islamic states were actually Muslims. Look, it's what they've been doing in the know, in Iraq and Syria and other places in twenty fourteen and fifteen, I think putting lives in a delusionary world, I mean, and the reason why in the vated Ukraine is the biggest proof, because he really believed that the Ukrainians are Russians and will not fight.

You know, when you talk about Ukraine in that context, it seems to me that there was a brief period right after World War One where there was a Ukrainian independence movement. Then there was a terrible period where Stalin deliberately starved Ukrainian farmers and millions died as a result of deliberate Soviet policy. And then right after World War Two you ended up, if I remember correctly, with a pretty significant resistance movement for two or three years. I mean that really was making a challenging Yeah, I mean.

You know, when you talk about Ukraine in that context, it seems to me that there was a brief period right after World War One where there was a Ukrainian independence movement. Then there was a terrible period where Stalin deliberately starved Ukrainian farmers and millions died as a result of deliberate Soviet policy. And then right after World War Two you ended up, if I remember correctly, with a pretty significant resistance movement for two or three years. I mean that really was making a challenging Yeah, I mean.

The Ukrainian idea has been run for quite a long time. And the title of my book, our Aimals will Vanish, that's a line from the Ukrainian national anthem that was written in the eighteen sixties in Kiev and goes, our animals will vanish like you at sunrise, very optimistic and very non bloody set of expectation of the enemies just going away. And at the time, the Ukrainian language was banned and the Ukraine books could not be printed, and the authors of this anthem were persecuted by the Russian authorities. After the First World War, it was indeed a Ukrainian People's Republic in Kiev, and there was another Ukrainian Republic. The Bolsheviks and Lenin realized that the only way they could control Ukraine is by allowing this idea of Ukrainian nationhood in Ukrainian identity, and so there was the Soviet Union with the Ukrainian Soviet Republic that in the nineteen twenties nineteen thirties was really Ukrainian. There was a policy of Ukrainization, you know, all officials had to speak Ukrainian, and a lot of the leaders of the Ukrainian Independent State, including its president Roshevsky, returned to Ukraine to be Rjoshruszewski was head of the Academy of the Ukrainian Soviet Republic. And then Stallion in nineteen thirties destroyed all that as a term in Ukraine, the executive Reinaissance, because much of the Ukrainian cultural and intellectual elite was just shot in the head and in the prison camps and in Krarelia in Northern Russia. And then there was a terrible famine and lots of other bad things up in Ukraine, which is reason why Ukraine is a fighting today because they know what happens when the Russians come and take over.

The Ukrainian idea has been run for quite a long time. And the title of my book, our Aimals will Vanish, that's a line from the Ukrainian national anthem that was written in the eighteen sixties in Kiev and goes, our animals will vanish like you at sunrise, very optimistic and very non bloody set of expectation of the enemies just going away. And at the time, the Ukrainian language was banned and the Ukraine books could not be printed, and the authors of this anthem were persecuted by the Russian authorities. After the First World War, it was indeed a Ukrainian People's Republic in Kiev, and there was another Ukrainian Republic. The Bolsheviks and Lenin realized that the only way they could control Ukraine is by allowing this idea of Ukrainian nationhood in Ukrainian identity, and so there was the Soviet Union with the Ukrainian Soviet Republic that in the nineteen twenties nineteen thirties was really Ukrainian. There was a policy of Ukrainization, you know, all officials had to speak Ukrainian, and a lot of the leaders of the Ukrainian Independent State, including its president Roshevsky, returned to Ukraine to be Rjoshruszewski was head of the Academy of the Ukrainian Soviet Republic. And then Stallion in nineteen thirties destroyed all that as a term in Ukraine, the executive Reinaissance, because much of the Ukrainian cultural and intellectual elite was just shot in the head and in the prison camps and in Krarelia in Northern Russia. And then there was a terrible famine and lots of other bad things up in Ukraine, which is reason why Ukraine is a fighting today because they know what happens when the Russians come and take over.

Part of what I think it's hard for most Americans realizes that Kiev was actually the center of Russian civilization up until the Mongols attack, and that the Great Wealth, the Great Education, the great churches were in Kiev. And Moscow was actually a relatively small settlement in the middle of the forest, which is part of what protected it from the Mongols. Plus it paid tribute. But it seems to me that there is a deep historic sense of Ukraine as an important center of civilization that makes it more difficult for them to bow to control from Moscow.

Part of what I think it's hard for most Americans realizes that Kiev was actually the center of Russian civilization up until the Mongols attack, and that the Great Wealth, the Great Education, the great churches were in Kiev. And Moscow was actually a relatively small settlement in the middle of the forest, which is part of what protected it from the Mongols. Plus it paid tribute. But it seems to me that there is a deep historic sense of Ukraine as an important center of civilization that makes it more difficult for them to bow to control from Moscow.

But the President of Ukraine and the President of Russia are named after Grand Prince Volodimmer of Kiev Vladimir. When Vladimir ruled, Moscow did not exist. One hundred years after Herold, Moscular did not exist. To Wander, the hearths of the Heralds could not exist. And to the Ukrainians, the Russians claiming the heritage their roots in the ki Rus, which was not Russia, but the Rus is misappropriation. I mean what they say is that, you know, we had the state in Ukraine, in Kiev. It was a great state, and then you know, many centuries later, the princes in Moscow, who only rose to power because they were collecting taxes for the Mongols. This was the historical reason for the rise of the Moscow Kingdom, decided to appropriate our history and declare themselves to be the heirs to the rules. And that is really Russia's foundational myth, because if you strip away that past, then the Russian sense of identity really collapses, which is why the existence of Ukraine is an independent country. Kiv being the capital of a different country is really a threat to Russian identity, and which is why it's so hard not just for Putin but the great many Russians to accept the idea that Ukraine is a different country. The Kiv rust is a history of a different country, and Prince Vladimur was the Prince of Kiev, not the Prince of Moscow.

But the President of Ukraine and the President of Russia are named after Grand Prince Volodimmer of Kiev Vladimir. When Vladimir ruled, Moscow did not exist. One hundred years after Herold, Moscular did not exist. To Wander, the hearths of the Heralds could not exist. And to the Ukrainians, the Russians claiming the heritage their roots in the ki Rus, which was not Russia, but the Rus is misappropriation. I mean what they say is that, you know, we had the state in Ukraine, in Kiev. It was a great state, and then you know, many centuries later, the princes in Moscow, who only rose to power because they were collecting taxes for the Mongols. This was the historical reason for the rise of the Moscow Kingdom, decided to appropriate our history and declare themselves to be the heirs to the rules. And that is really Russia's foundational myth, because if you strip away that past, then the Russian sense of identity really collapses, which is why the existence of Ukraine is an independent country. Kiv being the capital of a different country is really a threat to Russian identity, and which is why it's so hard not just for Putin but the great many Russians to accept the idea that Ukraine is a different country. The Kiv rust is a history of a different country, and Prince Vladimur was the Prince of Kiev, not the Prince of Moscow.

It seems to me that in that sense, the likelihood of Ukrainian nationalism caving and deciding to accept the Russians is very tiny. That there's a deep resistance and a deep sense of identity, not both because they want to be free, but also because they want to be Ukrainian.

It seems to me that in that sense, the likelihood of Ukrainian nationalism caving and deciding to accept the Russians is very tiny. That there's a deep resistance and a deep sense of identity, not both because they want to be free, but also because they want to be Ukrainian.

Yeah, absolutely, and I think it's very interesting how the Ukrainian identity changed over the last half a century of century, and that's really the reason why why Ukraine has been able to be so resilient and to resist. Ukrainian nationalism back in the nineteen thirties nineteen forties, like most other national in Europe, was pretty dark. It was very exclusive, anti Semitic. Quite often. You know, there was a lot of Ukrainian collaboration with the Nazis, as there was you know in the Botic States and many other countries in Europe and France, and I know Wesley in Russia too. I mean, there was an entire Russian division, Nazi division. It's all changed in the seventies and the eighties when the Ukrainian dissidents were in the same camps in Siberia as the Jewish Refuseniks, as the Baltic colleagues, as the Russians, and the idea was when Ukraine was born as an independent state, it was the foundational idea is that it's a very American idea, So of everyone in this country is a Ukrainian as long as you want to work for Ukraine for the well being of your fellow Ukrainians. And that's why Ukraine now could have a president who happens to be Jewish, the Minister of Defense who happens to be Muslim, the head of the military who happens to be born in Russia, General Serski, and nobody cares about that because it's not about blood anymore. It's not about which, It is not about what church you go to or synagogue or mosque. It's about serving Ukraine, which is I think very unique among European nationalisms that are all about blood and soil.

Yeah, absolutely, and I think it's very interesting how the Ukrainian identity changed over the last half a century of century, and that's really the reason why why Ukraine has been able to be so resilient and to resist. Ukrainian nationalism back in the nineteen thirties nineteen forties, like most other national in Europe, was pretty dark. It was very exclusive, anti Semitic. Quite often. You know, there was a lot of Ukrainian collaboration with the Nazis, as there was you know in the Botic States and many other countries in Europe and France, and I know Wesley in Russia too. I mean, there was an entire Russian division, Nazi division. It's all changed in the seventies and the eighties when the Ukrainian dissidents were in the same camps in Siberia as the Jewish Refuseniks, as the Baltic colleagues, as the Russians, and the idea was when Ukraine was born as an independent state, it was the foundational idea is that it's a very American idea, So of everyone in this country is a Ukrainian as long as you want to work for Ukraine for the well being of your fellow Ukrainians. And that's why Ukraine now could have a president who happens to be Jewish, the Minister of Defense who happens to be Muslim, the head of the military who happens to be born in Russia, General Serski, and nobody cares about that because it's not about blood anymore. It's not about which, It is not about what church you go to or synagogue or mosque. It's about serving Ukraine, which is I think very unique among European nationalisms that are all about blood and soil.

Well, as you said, it's a little bit like the American model that you get to be Ukrainian if you declare you are, and you get to be American if you declare your Their absorbent nationalisms rather than exclusive nationalisms. Before we get to the vital importance of getting the next round of aid, the one thing that most bothered me about Biden's response, which was dramatically better than Obama's, was they kept having this fear that if they sent modern equipment that would trigger Putin to go nuclear, and in a sense, the Biden administration kept locking its own hands. My guess is, if we had sent everything we've sent since then, in the first three months. The effect would have been electric and changing the whole dynamic of the war. But we kept convincing ourselves that if we actually enabled Ukraine to win decisively, that Putin's balance point would be to go nuclear. What's your estimate of the danger of Putin actually using nuclear weapons.

Well, as you said, it's a little bit like the American model that you get to be Ukrainian if you declare you are, and you get to be American if you declare your Their absorbent nationalisms rather than exclusive nationalisms. Before we get to the vital importance of getting the next round of aid, the one thing that most bothered me about Biden's response, which was dramatically better than Obama's, was they kept having this fear that if they sent modern equipment that would trigger Putin to go nuclear, and in a sense, the Biden administration kept locking its own hands. My guess is, if we had sent everything we've sent since then, in the first three months. The effect would have been electric and changing the whole dynamic of the war. But we kept convincing ourselves that if we actually enabled Ukraine to win decisively, that Putin's balance point would be to go nuclear. What's your estimate of the danger of Putin actually using nuclear weapons.

I think the bluff has been called over time, and it turned out to be just bluff. It was called by Ukrainians as well, because at some point when Ukraine was advancing in September twenty twenty two, Putting declared all those areas to be part of Russia and said, now this is Russia and we will use all our means to defend them, money further, you know, and we have nuclear weapons. Nukrainans went further into the city of Harassan, to the city of Leman, and he didn't do anything. So I think this self imposed self deterrence, as it's called basically, you know, it was really really unnecessary and it really undermined then to our effort. And if we look, you know, people will say, okay, you know, the US gave Ukraine a lot of stuff, and that's true, tens and tens tens of billions of dollars of weapons and equipment over time. But if you talk to Ukrainian commanders that would tell you, Okay, well there is a fire and you need the bucket of water to extinguish the fire. If you give us this bucket of water right away, we can extinguish it. But what we got from the US was a lot of teacups over the course of two years. There was never this critical mass, and whenever a new system was introduced, it was introduced to its limited numbers, and by the time numbers increased, the Russian clordy would find a way of counteracting it.

I think the bluff has been called over time, and it turned out to be just bluff. It was called by Ukrainians as well, because at some point when Ukraine was advancing in September twenty twenty two, Putting declared all those areas to be part of Russia and said, now this is Russia and we will use all our means to defend them, money further, you know, and we have nuclear weapons. Nukrainans went further into the city of Harassan, to the city of Leman, and he didn't do anything. So I think this self imposed self deterrence, as it's called basically, you know, it was really really unnecessary and it really undermined then to our effort. And if we look, you know, people will say, okay, you know, the US gave Ukraine a lot of stuff, and that's true, tens and tens tens of billions of dollars of weapons and equipment over time. But if you talk to Ukrainian commanders that would tell you, Okay, well there is a fire and you need the bucket of water to extinguish the fire. If you give us this bucket of water right away, we can extinguish it. But what we got from the US was a lot of teacups over the course of two years. There was never this critical mass, and whenever a new system was introduced, it was introduced to its limited numbers, and by the time numbers increased, the Russian clordy would find a way of counteracting it.

So, given though we are now where we are, how much damage has been done over the last three months by American political infighting and inability to pass a to Ukraine in a timely.

So, given though we are now where we are, how much damage has been done over the last three months by American political infighting and inability to pass a to Ukraine in a timely.

Way Russia, if you look at the map, the map has not changed dramatically. Russia took the city of Zifka, which is a city of about thirty thousand people. It is the first city it did take since May last year, and lost a lot of people. Russian estimates are sixteen thousand people died for the sixteen thousand Russian soldiers. Ukraine also sustaining very heavy losses. Every day of these delays is measured in hundreds of lives of Ukrainian soldiers that they killed injured, And WO don't know whether Russia will be able at some point in the coming months to assemble its critical mass to punch through the Ukrainian front lines and to get dramatically more ground. So the Europeans have stepped in partially. The capacity is limited, but they're doing a lot more than they used to. But there are a lot of things that only the US can provide, such as interceptress for the patriots. And Russia is taking advantage of this disruption in supply, lobbing missiles into Ukrainian cities every day, causing casualties, destroying the Ukrainian power infrastructure, and destroying its military capacity.

Way Russia, if you look at the map, the map has not changed dramatically. Russia took the city of Zifka, which is a city of about thirty thousand people. It is the first city it did take since May last year, and lost a lot of people. Russian estimates are sixteen thousand people died for the sixteen thousand Russian soldiers. Ukraine also sustaining very heavy losses. Every day of these delays is measured in hundreds of lives of Ukrainian soldiers that they killed injured, And WO don't know whether Russia will be able at some point in the coming months to assemble its critical mass to punch through the Ukrainian front lines and to get dramatically more ground. So the Europeans have stepped in partially. The capacity is limited, but they're doing a lot more than they used to. But there are a lot of things that only the US can provide, such as interceptress for the patriots. And Russia is taking advantage of this disruption in supply, lobbing missiles into Ukrainian cities every day, causing casualties, destroying the Ukrainian power infrastructure, and destroying its military capacity.

Whatever you think about Ukraine per se allowing Putin to win and as a result, project power into Central Europe and almost certainly I think try to reabsorb the Three Baldage States. This is a future that we cannot allow to happen. That Putin's victory would be a catastrophe for everything that the Western world has tried to achieve since the late nineteen thirties.

Whatever you think about Ukraine per se allowing Putin to win and as a result, project power into Central Europe and almost certainly I think try to reabsorb the Three Baldage States. This is a future that we cannot allow to happen. That Putin's victory would be a catastrophe for everything that the Western world has tried to achieve since the late nineteen thirties.

Absolutely, and not just in Europe. I would say China is watching very carefully what's happening in Ukraine. The people of Taiwan are watching very carefree. The people in Taiwan will have to make up their mind one day, are going to resist the Chinese or are going to just yield and surrender. And if they see the US walking away from Ukraine for no particular reason, you know, the Americans are dying. The US economy is not impacted by the war in Ukraine, I like the Europeans, and the Europeans had to make sacrifices. They had to get rid of their dependent on cheap Russian gas that fuel the German economy. The US didn'habted to that independent Russians.

Absolutely, and not just in Europe. I would say China is watching very carefully what's happening in Ukraine. The people of Taiwan are watching very carefree. The people in Taiwan will have to make up their mind one day, are going to resist the Chinese or are going to just yield and surrender. And if they see the US walking away from Ukraine for no particular reason, you know, the Americans are dying. The US economy is not impacted by the war in Ukraine, I like the Europeans, and the Europeans had to make sacrifices. They had to get rid of their dependent on cheap Russian gas that fuel the German economy. The US didn'habted to that independent Russians.

Hopefully in the next two or three weeks this will be solved and the money will start to flow again. And I think there are a lot of people trying to make that happen, including Speaker Johnson, who is taking some real risks in his own conference. Would you talk a little bit about your Wall Street Journal colleague, Heavin Kershkovitz, who's been detained in Russia for a year now, and also the whole challenge of the fact that they're over five hundred and twenty reporters locked up around the world. I mean, just focusing on locking up reporters strikes me as an enormous threat to the whole free world.

Hopefully in the next two or three weeks this will be solved and the money will start to flow again. And I think there are a lot of people trying to make that happen, including Speaker Johnson, who is taking some real risks in his own conference. Would you talk a little bit about your Wall Street Journal colleague, Heavin Kershkovitz, who's been detained in Russia for a year now, and also the whole challenge of the fact that they're over five hundred and twenty reporters locked up around the world. I mean, just focusing on locking up reporters strikes me as an enormous threat to the whole free world.

Well, you know, detators are afraid of truth, they're afraid of information. They are friend people piercing the bubble of propernanda. And that is one of the reasons why Russian Putin has gone after Evan, because Evan was there writing stories that explain what's really happening in Russia. He was doing his job as a journalist, doing great job, and that did not please the regime there. And we have seen other authoritary regimes clapping down the press, not necessarily by detaining journalis, but also by the enang visas expelling them. We've seen in China it's very hard to work in China as well. Any forty journals going to Russia is playing Russian or Electorate.

Well, you know, detators are afraid of truth, they're afraid of information. They are friend people piercing the bubble of propernanda. And that is one of the reasons why Russian Putin has gone after Evan, because Evan was there writing stories that explain what's really happening in Russia. He was doing his job as a journalist, doing great job, and that did not please the regime there. And we have seen other authoritary regimes clapping down the press, not necessarily by detaining journalis, but also by the enang visas expelling them. We've seen in China it's very hard to work in China as well. Any forty journals going to Russia is playing Russian or Electorate.

Now. It's pretty sobering, and of course our prayers are with Evan and his family and we hope that we can get him released herself. I want to thank you for joining me your new book, Our Enemies will Vanish, the Russian invasion and Ukraine's War of Independence is available now on Amazon and in bookstores everywhere. I encourage everyone who's concerned not just about Ukraine, but about the peace of the West and the survival of our values and the necessity of defeating Russia and pick up a copy. And you can follow our slaves reporting with the Wall Street Journal at WSJ dot com. But thank you very.

Now. It's pretty sobering, and of course our prayers are with Evan and his family and we hope that we can get him released herself. I want to thank you for joining me your new book, Our Enemies will Vanish, the Russian invasion and Ukraine's War of Independence is available now on Amazon and in bookstores everywhere. I encourage everyone who's concerned not just about Ukraine, but about the peace of the West and the survival of our values and the necessity of defeating Russia and pick up a copy. And you can follow our slaves reporting with the Wall Street Journal at WSJ dot com. But thank you very.

Much for being with us, Thank you so much for having me.

Much for being with us, Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you to my guest, Jarislov Truffemoff. You can get a link to buy his new book, Our Enemies Will Vanish, the Russian Invasion and Ukraine's War of Independence on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newsworld is produced by Gingrish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at Gingrish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give us a review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of newts World can sign up for my three free weekly columns at gingrishtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.

Thank you to my guest, Jarislov Truffemoff. You can get a link to buy his new book, Our Enemies Will Vanish, the Russian Invasion and Ukraine's War of Independence on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newsworld is produced by Gingrish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at Gingrish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give us a review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of newts World can sign up for my three free weekly columns at gingrishtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.