On this episode of Newts World. Each year, Gallup releases a World Happiness Report. In their twenty twenty four report, the United States is now ranked twenty third, falling from fifteenth place a year ago, with Finland, Denmark, Iceland, and Sweden ranked as the top four happiest countries in the world. And it turns out that the reason the US rankings have fallen is due to the point of view of people under thirty in the United States. So today we're going to talk about how the report measures happiness and why the US has fallen out of the top twenty. So I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, John Halliwell. He is one of the chief editors of the World Happiness Report. He is a Canadian Institute for Advanced Research Distinguished Fellow and Professor Emeritus of Economics at the University of British Columbia. John, welcome and thank you for joining me on Newts World.

On this episode of Newts World. Each year, Gallup releases a World Happiness Report. In their twenty twenty four report, the United States is now ranked twenty third, falling from fifteenth place a year ago, with Finland, Denmark, Iceland, and Sweden ranked as the top four happiest countries in the world. And it turns out that the reason the US rankings have fallen is due to the point of view of people under thirty in the United States. So today we're going to talk about how the report measures happiness and why the US has fallen out of the top twenty. So I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, John Halliwell. He is one of the chief editors of the World Happiness Report. He is a Canadian Institute for Advanced Research Distinguished Fellow and Professor Emeritus of Economics at the University of British Columbia. John, welcome and thank you for joining me on Newts World.

My pleasure.

My pleasure.

You know, British Columbia is so beautiful. I wonder to what extent that gives you an interest in happiness.

You know, British Columbia is so beautiful. I wonder to what extent that gives you an interest in happiness.

Well, it's the search for happiness that has kept over the years, drawing me back to my roots. Even though I have lived fifteen years in other countries.

Well, it's the search for happiness that has kept over the years, drawing me back to my roots. Even though I have lived fifteen years in other countries.

Your PhD is in economics, but you've actually devoted the last quarter century of your academic career to studying subjective well being. I think an instant title subjective wellbeing talk a little bit about what subjective wellbeing means well.

Your PhD is in economics, but you've actually devoted the last quarter century of your academic career to studying subjective well being. I think an instant title subjective wellbeing talk a little bit about what subjective wellbeing means well.

The key measure that we use in the science of well being in general, there's sort of three options. You can look for life evaluations as a whole, what do people think about their lives? And then you can look at positive emotions and negative emotions, And for us, the central measure is a life evaluation question. In a lot of the earlier research it was on life satisfaction. The recommended international measure is life satisfaction on a scale of zero to ten. A Gallop World Poll, which we use in the World Happiness Report and have used in the World Happiness Report since the first one in twenty twelve, uses something called the Cantrall ladder, where people are asked to think of their lives as a ladder, with the best possible life as a tent and the worst is a zero, and where would you rank your life today? And those are averaged over three years. A thousand people each year, and that gives us a basis for the rankings, which are a central part of the report alone. Nothing like it's their way of getting people in to read the report, and then the report tries to get them interested in what makes for better lives.

The key measure that we use in the science of well being in general, there's sort of three options. You can look for life evaluations as a whole, what do people think about their lives? And then you can look at positive emotions and negative emotions, And for us, the central measure is a life evaluation question. In a lot of the earlier research it was on life satisfaction. The recommended international measure is life satisfaction on a scale of zero to ten. A Gallop World Poll, which we use in the World Happiness Report and have used in the World Happiness Report since the first one in twenty twelve, uses something called the Cantrall ladder, where people are asked to think of their lives as a ladder, with the best possible life as a tent and the worst is a zero, and where would you rank your life today? And those are averaged over three years. A thousand people each year, and that gives us a basis for the rankings, which are a central part of the report alone. Nothing like it's their way of getting people in to read the report, and then the report tries to get them interested in what makes for better lives.

Well, you know, it's deubinely interesting because the Gallop world Pole system is kind of an astonishing commitment to gathering data. It's an enormous undertaking.

Well, you know, it's deubinely interesting because the Gallop world Pole system is kind of an astonishing commitment to gathering data. It's an enormous undertaking.

It's an enormous undertaking, and the rest of the world is very appreciative of that. When we wrote the first World Happiness Support for a High Level Meeting on Happiness and well Being in twenty twelve, we used all the available sources all over the world. But even then, the Gallop World Pole was the most broad measure available in most countries, and it has been ever since, and thanks to Gallop's cooperation in making the data available to us, it has been a centerpiece of the report ever since. I've been admiring of Jim Clifton and Gail Muller right at the beginning, having the courage and the willingness to take on something that right at the beginning they said, this is something for a century and so they made that long bet and they've now been doing it for almost twenty years, and they get a lot of credit for that, because there has never been anything like as comparable measures of almost anything in the world. The international comparisons of income are not yet as good as Gallops already managed to make with these surveys, because they're run essentially by the same people and the same methods all over the world.

It's an enormous undertaking, and the rest of the world is very appreciative of that. When we wrote the first World Happiness Support for a High Level Meeting on Happiness and well Being in twenty twelve, we used all the available sources all over the world. But even then, the Gallop World Pole was the most broad measure available in most countries, and it has been ever since, and thanks to Gallop's cooperation in making the data available to us, it has been a centerpiece of the report ever since. I've been admiring of Jim Clifton and Gail Muller right at the beginning, having the courage and the willingness to take on something that right at the beginning they said, this is something for a century and so they made that long bet and they've now been doing it for almost twenty years, and they get a lot of credit for that, because there has never been anything like as comparable measures of almost anything in the world. The international comparisons of income are not yet as good as Gallops already managed to make with these surveys, because they're run essentially by the same people and the same methods all over the world.

It's amazing. And I think that the Gallop system in the way in which they hire local people, so that you really have women in Saudi Arabia interviewing women, you have people in the countryside in Africa interviewing people, and their effort to get accurate information I think is way beyond almost any organization I know of, And the result is the value of their data is stunning.

It's amazing. And I think that the Gallop system in the way in which they hire local people, so that you really have women in Saudi Arabia interviewing women, you have people in the countryside in Africa interviewing people, and their effort to get accurate information I think is way beyond almost any organization I know of, And the result is the value of their data is stunning.

It is very good.

It is very good.

And we have, of course many other sources of data for restricted sets of countries, and Gallop ranks right up there in terms of the quality of their interviewers. Of course, they cover more languages than anybody else does, and their commitment to give surveys as long as a substantial fraction of a country's population speaks a language, then they use that language as well, so they're getting very broad coverage.

And we have, of course many other sources of data for restricted sets of countries, and Gallop ranks right up there in terms of the quality of their interviewers. Of course, they cover more languages than anybody else does, and their commitment to give surveys as long as a substantial fraction of a country's population speaks a language, then they use that language as well, so they're getting very broad coverage.

I noticed that the top ten countries Finland, Denmark, Iceland, Sweden, Israel, and then answer my question, Netherlands comes in next, Norway, Luxembourg, Switzerland and Australia. You really have all five Nordic countries in the top ten. What do you draw from the top ten countries? In some ways, Australia, I guess, is the biggest outlier in this group, But what do you make of the ten of them being there?

I noticed that the top ten countries Finland, Denmark, Iceland, Sweden, Israel, and then answer my question, Netherlands comes in next, Norway, Luxembourg, Switzerland and Australia. You really have all five Nordic countries in the top ten. What do you draw from the top ten countries? In some ways, Australia, I guess, is the biggest outlier in this group, But what do you make of the ten of them being there?

Well, the Nordic countries always been in the top ten. Sweden at least has been outside the top ten now and again Switzerland, who was at the launch event in Washington this year their ambassador has been number one at one stage. Norway has been number one, Denmark has been number one twice. Finland has now landed and stayed in the top spot. I used to say it's a little bit like saying when you go to first class football league, you don't spend all your time looking at the team that's best, because there are a lot of teams up there with the potential to be right at the top.

Well, the Nordic countries always been in the top ten. Sweden at least has been outside the top ten now and again Switzerland, who was at the launch event in Washington this year their ambassador has been number one at one stage. Norway has been number one, Denmark has been number one twice. Finland has now landed and stayed in the top spot. I used to say it's a little bit like saying when you go to first class football league, you don't spend all your time looking at the team that's best, because there are a lot of teams up there with the potential to be right at the top.

And what they.

And what they.

Offer, of course, is lessons for the rest of us about how we might do better.

Offer, of course, is lessons for the rest of us about how we might do better.

When you look at the top ten, only two of them, the Netherlands in Australia, have populations over fifteen million.

When you look at the top ten, only two of them, the Netherlands in Australia, have populations over fifteen million.

It is interesting, isn't it.

It is interesting, isn't it.

Well, it's almost like being a relatively small country gives you some advantages. And of course I think the survey was done before the tragic attack of October seventh. But Israel, with all of the challenges that had and all of the threats against it, manages to be in the top ten, which is pretty remarkable.

Well, it's almost like being a relatively small country gives you some advantages. And of course I think the survey was done before the tragic attack of October seventh. But Israel, with all of the challenges that had and all of the threats against it, manages to be in the top ten, which is pretty remarkable.

Is astonishing, And it's worth noting that we use a three year average, and if the ranking had been based on their current measures, which were taken after October seventh, they would have been out of the top twenty. I think they would have been twenty or twenty one. And in terms of negative emotions, they had the highest degrees of sorrow of almost any country in those polls. And you could well see why the Palestinian survey was taken before the attacks and showed lowest in Gaza even relative to the rest of Palestine even then, and of course they'll be far lower now.

Is astonishing, And it's worth noting that we use a three year average, and if the ranking had been based on their current measures, which were taken after October seventh, they would have been out of the top twenty. I think they would have been twenty or twenty one. And in terms of negative emotions, they had the highest degrees of sorrow of almost any country in those polls. And you could well see why the Palestinian survey was taken before the attacks and showed lowest in Gaza even relative to the rest of Palestine even then, and of course they'll be far lower now.

Do you know if somebody had asked me this the other day, when you talk about the Israeli Happiness Report. Does that conclude the Arab population in Israel? Is it blended in?

Do you know if somebody had asked me this the other day, when you talk about the Israeli Happiness Report. Does that conclude the Arab population in Israel? Is it blended in?

Yes?

Yes?

It is.

It is.

Yes, it does. So.

Yes, it does. So.

Even with whatever the tensions might be among the Arabs inside Israel, they still end up in the top ten of happiest countries in the world, which is pretty remarkable.

Even with whatever the tensions might be among the Arabs inside Israel, they still end up in the top ten of happiest countries in the world, which is pretty remarkable.

It's interesting that it's especially true among the young. Israel as a whole has always been in the top twenty. It's been roughly eleven twelve and down more recently in the top ten.

It's interesting that it's especially true among the young. Israel as a whole has always been in the top twenty. It's been roughly eleven twelve and down more recently in the top ten.

And then to go to the opposite level of happiness, the bottom ten countries starting from the least happiest Afghanistan, Lebanon, Lesoto, Sierra Leone, Congo, Zimbabwe, Botswana, Malawi, Swutini, Zambia. Two of them, of course, Afghanistan and Lebanon On Asia. The rest are all in Africa. Is there any common characteristic that places them in the bottom ten?

And then to go to the opposite level of happiness, the bottom ten countries starting from the least happiest Afghanistan, Lebanon, Lesoto, Sierra Leone, Congo, Zimbabwe, Botswana, Malawi, Swutini, Zambia. Two of them, of course, Afghanistan and Lebanon On Asia. The rest are all in Africa. Is there any common characteristic that places them in the bottom ten?

Overall?

Overall?

We say, to be in the top ten, you've got to rank high in all the things we look at. To be in the bottom ten, you have to rank pretty low in all of the things that we look at. So these are how people rank their own lives. Nothing more is added to that. But as you know, we spend quite a lot of effort trying to explain these differences across countries over time and in terms of levels now, and these six factors that we look at there are all low. In the lowest countries, we actually have a country we call dystopia, which is the level of happiness that there would be in an imaginary country if they had the world's lowest values of each of the six variables we look at, which are GDP per capita, healthy life expectancy, and probably the most important of all, you have someone to count on in times of trouble, generosity, sense of freedom to make key life decisions, and the lack of corruption, and those countries at the bottom have them all. We don't have very good general data for the state of internal conflict and warfare because of sample size, and you can't even run surveys in war torn places, but we know that's very important. So countries that have either been the victims of conflict or are charged with very high levels of internal dispute are very unhappy.

We say, to be in the top ten, you've got to rank high in all the things we look at. To be in the bottom ten, you have to rank pretty low in all of the things that we look at. So these are how people rank their own lives. Nothing more is added to that. But as you know, we spend quite a lot of effort trying to explain these differences across countries over time and in terms of levels now, and these six factors that we look at there are all low. In the lowest countries, we actually have a country we call dystopia, which is the level of happiness that there would be in an imaginary country if they had the world's lowest values of each of the six variables we look at, which are GDP per capita, healthy life expectancy, and probably the most important of all, you have someone to count on in times of trouble, generosity, sense of freedom to make key life decisions, and the lack of corruption, and those countries at the bottom have them all. We don't have very good general data for the state of internal conflict and warfare because of sample size, and you can't even run surveys in war torn places, but we know that's very important. So countries that have either been the victims of conflict or are charged with very high levels of internal dispute are very unhappy.

You know, I noticed it. Interestingly, two of the countries that fell out of the top twenty are big countries in United States, which dropped from fifteen to twenty three, and Germany, which dropped from sixteen to twenty four. Is there any commonality in the German and American responses that would help explain why both of them dropped.

You know, I noticed it. Interestingly, two of the countries that fell out of the top twenty are big countries in United States, which dropped from fifteen to twenty three, and Germany, which dropped from sixteen to twenty four. Is there any commonality in the German and American responses that would help explain why both of them dropped.

That's an interesting question.

That's an interesting question.

I haven't heard it posed quite that way, But it is true that one of the key features that are behind the drops in both Germany and the United States are the happiness of the young, So that it isn't everywhere in the world that the young are dropping relative to the old, but it was true in both those countries. In the case of both those countries, the thing that's in common is that there's some.

I haven't heard it posed quite that way, But it is true that one of the key features that are behind the drops in both Germany and the United States are the happiness of the young, So that it isn't everywhere in the world that the young are dropping relative to the old, but it was true in both those countries. In the case of both those countries, the thing that's in common is that there's some.

Other countries coming along.

Other countries coming along.

While there were slipping a little bit or fair amount, other countries were rising. And in particular, we know that three countries of Central and Eastern Europe are now above them and the rankings that I think nineteen twenty and twenty one, and that's part of the convergence between Eastern and Western Europe that's been now going on for almost as long as the Pole has been in operation. And for the young, they're now equally happy in Eastern and Western Europe, and so that marks a convergence the old that's not the case, because many more of them bear the scars of previous lives. That's certainly true in the Balkans as well.

While there were slipping a little bit or fair amount, other countries were rising. And in particular, we know that three countries of Central and Eastern Europe are now above them and the rankings that I think nineteen twenty and twenty one, and that's part of the convergence between Eastern and Western Europe that's been now going on for almost as long as the Pole has been in operation. And for the young, they're now equally happy in Eastern and Western Europe, and so that marks a convergence the old that's not the case, because many more of them bear the scars of previous lives. That's certainly true in the Balkans as well.

We've just been through a historic moment in which there's been a worldwide pandemic with COVID, and yet apparently, if I understand it correctly, there's no particular net increase or decrease in life evaluations even though we've been through this remarkably challenging period.

We've just been through a historic moment in which there's been a worldwide pandemic with COVID, and yet apparently, if I understand it correctly, there's no particular net increase or decrease in life evaluations even though we've been through this remarkably challenging period.

One of the most popular, most red reports we had was in twenty twenty one, which is the first report that came out with the first year of evidence from twenty twenty of COVID, and there was almost no budge. And we've continued to found that through COVID, very little change in average levels of life evaluation. Will clearly lives were torn asunder, and this was in its own way akin to natural disasters that we've seen before, like earthquakes and tsunamis where you can see what I'm doing now, I'm trying to set the stage for saying, how could life evaluations not drop under this enormous twist. I don't have to go through all the negative things that were happening in people's lives.

One of the most popular, most red reports we had was in twenty twenty one, which is the first report that came out with the first year of evidence from twenty twenty of COVID, and there was almost no budge. And we've continued to found that through COVID, very little change in average levels of life evaluation. Will clearly lives were torn asunder, and this was in its own way akin to natural disasters that we've seen before, like earthquakes and tsunamis where you can see what I'm doing now, I'm trying to set the stage for saying, how could life evaluations not drop under this enormous twist. I don't have to go through all the negative things that were happening in people's lives.

What I'm now.

What I'm now.

Countering up is a story that can explain why people's life evaluations didn't drop on average. Obviously, where some people were more damaged than others. But like other natural disasters, we have found that there's an underlying negativity effect that people pay attention to bad news and it ends up having them think worse of other people than other people merit.

Countering up is a story that can explain why people's life evaluations didn't drop on average. Obviously, where some people were more damaged than others. But like other natural disasters, we have found that there's an underlying negativity effect that people pay attention to bad news and it ends up having them think worse of other people than other people merit.

And so what.

And so what.

Happens in a natural disaster is that you find out what your neighbors are like and others. Some places where a natural disaster just leads to looting and even confirms the word view of the other person. But in most cases in natural disasters, people rush out to help others, to do what they can to make life better for them, And not only does that make them feel better doing that, it helplessly makes the people they're helping feel better, but makes both of them more convinced that people they share their communities with our good people. And that makes you feel better because to feel someone else happier back makes you feel better. Okay, one piece of evidence, And we didn't know this when we first knew that the life evaluations were dropping, but in twenty twenty, but especially twenty twenty one, and we've seen it since. There was a huge increase in benevolence all over the world. And people may initially have simply reached out to others because they needed it, but they've kept doing it, and that benevolence, when done and when seen, is a fundamental support to life evaluations.

Happens in a natural disaster is that you find out what your neighbors are like and others. Some places where a natural disaster just leads to looting and even confirms the word view of the other person. But in most cases in natural disasters, people rush out to help others, to do what they can to make life better for them, And not only does that make them feel better doing that, it helplessly makes the people they're helping feel better, but makes both of them more convinced that people they share their communities with our good people. And that makes you feel better because to feel someone else happier back makes you feel better. Okay, one piece of evidence, And we didn't know this when we first knew that the life evaluations were dropping, but in twenty twenty, but especially twenty twenty one, and we've seen it since. There was a huge increase in benevolence all over the world. And people may initially have simply reached out to others because they needed it, but they've kept doing it, and that benevolence, when done and when seen, is a fundamental support to life evaluations.

Four kinds of benevolence.

Four kinds of benevolence.

We look at our helping of strangers, donations and volunteering, well all of them were up, especially helping of strangers, and they're up by about fifteen to twenty percent all over the world. So that gives you some inkling about how this reshaping of lives can make people feel better. And you go and ask your friends, how was it for you during the pandemic? Just as people always used about the war, what sort of a war did you have? How did you look after yourself during these awful times? And a striking number of people said, our family has rediscovered each other. They were forced to be in the same boot camp, playpen, whatever you call it together, but a lot of them have done very well in that context. People have and I've certainly found it that having not to jump on a plane to meet someone across the world to do a collaboration. Everyone shifted immediately to zoom and its equivalent, and that ended up actually creating many more lively connections than had existed before. And so we find among older people that's a special surprise, right. They were most threatened by the disease, they were most subject to mortality and morbidity, and yet their subjective well being didn't draw And you ask them about their lives and they say, I hear more from my younger members of my family than I ever did before the pandemic. And so the luck of having effective social media on hand at that time really enable people. I'm imagine what it would have been like had we all been locked in our houses with no ability to essentially work from home or learn from home, or contact family from home. It really would have been bad. So part of it is simply a rejigging of the technical possibilities that had been used for lesser purposes for greater pots.

We look at our helping of strangers, donations and volunteering, well all of them were up, especially helping of strangers, and they're up by about fifteen to twenty percent all over the world. So that gives you some inkling about how this reshaping of lives can make people feel better. And you go and ask your friends, how was it for you during the pandemic? Just as people always used about the war, what sort of a war did you have? How did you look after yourself during these awful times? And a striking number of people said, our family has rediscovered each other. They were forced to be in the same boot camp, playpen, whatever you call it together, but a lot of them have done very well in that context. People have and I've certainly found it that having not to jump on a plane to meet someone across the world to do a collaboration. Everyone shifted immediately to zoom and its equivalent, and that ended up actually creating many more lively connections than had existed before. And so we find among older people that's a special surprise, right. They were most threatened by the disease, they were most subject to mortality and morbidity, and yet their subjective well being didn't draw And you ask them about their lives and they say, I hear more from my younger members of my family than I ever did before the pandemic. And so the luck of having effective social media on hand at that time really enable people. I'm imagine what it would have been like had we all been locked in our houses with no ability to essentially work from home or learn from home, or contact family from home. It really would have been bad. So part of it is simply a rejigging of the technical possibilities that had been used for lesser purposes for greater pots.

As I listened to you, I can't help but think that all of the talk about social distancing actually brought us together. I mean, it's kind of wild if you think about the effort with the mask, with being six feet apart and all these things. I mean, I think this is fascinating that it may well turn out that this was a positive experience, even though it was a personal tragedy for people who died from it. But that, to me is one of the biggest surprises of the Gallup pole that we're talking about. But now there's a second surprise, which I wasn't shocked by given other things I've looked at, but I was really disturbed by, and that is that the gap that is now building in the US is between those who were under thirty and those who are over sixty. That people over sixty are actually substantially happier than people who are under thirty. I mean, how do you analyze that.

As I listened to you, I can't help but think that all of the talk about social distancing actually brought us together. I mean, it's kind of wild if you think about the effort with the mask, with being six feet apart and all these things. I mean, I think this is fascinating that it may well turn out that this was a positive experience, even though it was a personal tragedy for people who died from it. But that, to me is one of the biggest surprises of the Gallup pole that we're talking about. But now there's a second surprise, which I wasn't shocked by given other things I've looked at, but I was really disturbed by, and that is that the gap that is now building in the US is between those who were under thirty and those who are over sixty. That people over sixty are actually substantially happier than people who are under thirty. I mean, how do you analyze that.

We've got three issues right, We mustn't forget the people in the middle.

We've got three issues right, We mustn't forget the people in the middle.

So it's been.

So it's been.

Known for quite a while in most countries, not all countries. Most times people start out happy when they're young, and then they get less happy in the midlife crunch stage, and then they come out of that and get happier later on. So if you think of a U what's happened in the United States, that's twisted with a big drop in the happiness of the young and a maintenance, not quite a maintenance, but almost maintenance for the older populations, and the middle sort of dropping down too. So the United States drop is in all three age groups, but especially for the young. And I think one of the striking things in the report is that we rank countries by how happy they're young were and how happy they old were. The US was tenth for the over sixties, so punching above its weight for the over sixties, and I think sixty second for the under thirties, So that gave a gap of fifty two between the two ranks for the young and the old, and Canada was almost in as bad a situation as that.

Known for quite a while in most countries, not all countries. Most times people start out happy when they're young, and then they get less happy in the midlife crunch stage, and then they come out of that and get happier later on. So if you think of a U what's happened in the United States, that's twisted with a big drop in the happiness of the young and a maintenance, not quite a maintenance, but almost maintenance for the older populations, and the middle sort of dropping down too. So the United States drop is in all three age groups, but especially for the young. And I think one of the striking things in the report is that we rank countries by how happy they're young were and how happy they old were. The US was tenth for the over sixties, so punching above its weight for the over sixties, and I think sixty second for the under thirties, So that gave a gap of fifty two between the two ranks for the young and the old, and Canada was almost in as bad a situation as that.

Do Canada and the US tend to run parallel on these kind of measures, The.

Do Canada and the US tend to run parallel on these kind of measures, The.

Simple answer is no. It is true among Western European countries, and especially among the North America plus Australia and New Zealand, that there's this twist taking place of the young happiness dropping relative to the old. There are many countries of the world where the reverse is true, where the twist is the other way around, where the young are rising faster than the old. The Scandinavian countries, I think, if you look at those rankings, then look at the very top countries. Finland, for example, is number seven for the young and number one for the lower middle, one for the upper middle.

Simple answer is no. It is true among Western European countries, and especially among the North America plus Australia and New Zealand, that there's this twist taking place of the young happiness dropping relative to the old. There are many countries of the world where the reverse is true, where the twist is the other way around, where the young are rising faster than the old. The Scandinavian countries, I think, if you look at those rankings, then look at the very top countries. Finland, for example, is number seven for the young and number one for the lower middle, one for the upper middle.

And two for the old.

And two for the old.

So they end up talk everywhere, but doing better for the old and for the young. The same is true for the other Denmark is second overall, fifth for the young, so you could see, as you suggest, there is some parallelism in those countries of the lower ranking for the young than the old.

So they end up talk everywhere, but doing better for the old and for the young. The same is true for the other Denmark is second overall, fifth for the young, so you could see, as you suggest, there is some parallelism in those countries of the lower ranking for the young than the old.

Do we have some analytical insights into why the young are more pessimistic or have a lower level of satisfaction than they head, say, twenty years ago.

Do we have some analytical insights into why the young are more pessimistic or have a lower level of satisfaction than they head, say, twenty years ago.

We're still in the guesswork stage, but there's lots of potential culprits. If you look around at various institutions of our private lives and our public lives. People are disputing the rights of others to speak. They're feeling guilty either blaming others for what's going on in terms of warfare, in terms of gender issues, in terms of colonial history issues. There's a whole range of the past that's being unearthed in ways that so far are leading people to feel discouraged about what has happened and not yet working collaboratively to do something better for the future. So it's as though we can see this earthquake in opinion and people getting disputatious without yet coming out to join together to find solutions, better ways forward. So it's still in that blaming stage, and that's an unhappy stage because they're seeing people those enemies rather than friends to collaborate with. And I think that's more common among the young than the old for two reasons. One is that they're more subject to the media that are amplifying these disputed positions. I think it's kind of a commonplace that our media are now more polarized, even the sort of official media, more polarized than they would have been forty years ago. And the social media in some sense invite polarization because it's very much easier to form groups of likes people like yourself, and then that creates an information vacuum where you don't really know what other people not like you are thinking, so you're more likely to believe the worst about them than think the worst about them. And that recycling and building up of information in conflicting stories is not a secret for happiness, it's a secret for unhappiness because it makes people think about climate change. For example, that's been an area of increasing worry for young people now for thirty forty years. They're feeling cross that the world that's being left to them and they don't have no easy ways of doing something about it in their own lives. You chalk that up with the other issues I mentioned, and you say, well, that's a pretty nasty newsfeed. We know that within the news business it has a negativity bias that we all have, so it focuses on the bad because people are drawn to the bad.

We're still in the guesswork stage, but there's lots of potential culprits. If you look around at various institutions of our private lives and our public lives. People are disputing the rights of others to speak. They're feeling guilty either blaming others for what's going on in terms of warfare, in terms of gender issues, in terms of colonial history issues. There's a whole range of the past that's being unearthed in ways that so far are leading people to feel discouraged about what has happened and not yet working collaboratively to do something better for the future. So it's as though we can see this earthquake in opinion and people getting disputatious without yet coming out to join together to find solutions, better ways forward. So it's still in that blaming stage, and that's an unhappy stage because they're seeing people those enemies rather than friends to collaborate with. And I think that's more common among the young than the old for two reasons. One is that they're more subject to the media that are amplifying these disputed positions. I think it's kind of a commonplace that our media are now more polarized, even the sort of official media, more polarized than they would have been forty years ago. And the social media in some sense invite polarization because it's very much easier to form groups of likes people like yourself, and then that creates an information vacuum where you don't really know what other people not like you are thinking, so you're more likely to believe the worst about them than think the worst about them. And that recycling and building up of information in conflicting stories is not a secret for happiness, it's a secret for unhappiness because it makes people think about climate change. For example, that's been an area of increasing worry for young people now for thirty forty years. They're feeling cross that the world that's being left to them and they don't have no easy ways of doing something about it in their own lives. You chalk that up with the other issues I mentioned, and you say, well, that's a pretty nasty newsfeed. We know that within the news business it has a negativity bias that we all have, so it focuses on the bad because people are drawn to the bad.

So if you tell the bad news stories, you'll sell more newspapers.

So if you tell the bad news stories, you'll sell more newspapers.

Well that may be okay for selling newspapers, but it's not a good way of giving people a realistic view of the quality of life around them.

Well that may be okay for selling newspapers, but it's not a good way of giving people a realistic view of the quality of life around them.

Let me give you just one.

Let me give you just one.

Example of that that we know, because we've now got experience or mental.

Example of that that we know, because we've now got experience or mental.

Evidence on this.

Evidence on this.

That people love living in a country where if they drop their wallet, it would be returned the society of other people watching you back. And early experiments in Helsinki, ten out of tend wallets were returned. Well, that wasn't true in all the other places where they were done. We now these experiments everywhere the important point for this discussion is that people are generally much better than we think they are. So we know the proportion of wallets who are returned. We now have surveys that ask people how likely is your wallet to be returned if you dropped it? On average, they underguess the row wallet returned dramatically. Well, now play that into the current environment, where you're hearing all kinds of bad news. You probably find people actually thinking that all those nasty people out there who disagree with me on everything from gender to the Civil War, they wouldn't do anything for me, and I wouldn't do anything for them.

That people love living in a country where if they drop their wallet, it would be returned the society of other people watching you back. And early experiments in Helsinki, ten out of tend wallets were returned. Well, that wasn't true in all the other places where they were done. We now these experiments everywhere the important point for this discussion is that people are generally much better than we think they are. So we know the proportion of wallets who are returned. We now have surveys that ask people how likely is your wallet to be returned if you dropped it? On average, they underguess the row wallet returned dramatically. Well, now play that into the current environment, where you're hearing all kinds of bad news. You probably find people actually thinking that all those nasty people out there who disagree with me on everything from gender to the Civil War, they wouldn't do anything for me, and I wouldn't do anything for them.

And so you.

And so you.

Get a degradation of these positive instincts that are enormously life supporting. And I suspect those new circles are probably running faster and are not in check as much for the young as for the old. I can add one more piece of information, which is part of the puzzle we face as to why the old are getting happier. It's not just that the older now on average happier than the young. Within the old age group, people are getting happier every year of their lives. Well, we know their health status is getting worse every year on average, we know it matters to them more that they're about their health status. Their actual social contacts are getting less frequent than they were before. But yet they're happier with their social contacts, and they're more satisfied with their lives, and they're less lonely than their younger people year by year. And so this is something that's called the positivity effect. The idea is as you get older, you get wiser, and so you learn to see the bad things, learn the lessons you have to learn, and then close the door while you pull out the good things and polish them, and you manage your social relations different. You may not have as many of them, but you know how to choose the ones that'll be good for the other person and good for you. Some people argue it's only when you see that life is finite you ask yourself the question, how do I want to live the rest of my life? And you say, I don't want to spend it all fighting, I don't want to be angry with people.

Get a degradation of these positive instincts that are enormously life supporting. And I suspect those new circles are probably running faster and are not in check as much for the young as for the old. I can add one more piece of information, which is part of the puzzle we face as to why the old are getting happier. It's not just that the older now on average happier than the young. Within the old age group, people are getting happier every year of their lives. Well, we know their health status is getting worse every year on average, we know it matters to them more that they're about their health status. Their actual social contacts are getting less frequent than they were before. But yet they're happier with their social contacts, and they're more satisfied with their lives, and they're less lonely than their younger people year by year. And so this is something that's called the positivity effect. The idea is as you get older, you get wiser, and so you learn to see the bad things, learn the lessons you have to learn, and then close the door while you pull out the good things and polish them, and you manage your social relations different. You may not have as many of them, but you know how to choose the ones that'll be good for the other person and good for you. Some people argue it's only when you see that life is finite you ask yourself the question, how do I want to live the rest of my life? And you say, I don't want to spend it all fighting, I don't want to be angry with people.

I want to enjoy life.

I want to enjoy life.

I want to make life better for other people in me, And so more and more people do that as they get older, and of course it makes them happier, but it shouldn't take that long to start learning that lesson.

I want to make life better for other people in me, And so more and more people do that as they get older, and of course it makes them happier, but it shouldn't take that long to start learning that lesson.

I'm very curious to what degree the current sense of loneliness among younger people is a combination of the rise of social media and the rise of smartphones, so people literally spend less time with other human beings directly and more time electronically. Is there any kind of study or an is that would help us with that.

I'm very curious to what degree the current sense of loneliness among younger people is a combination of the rise of social media and the rise of smartphones, so people literally spend less time with other human beings directly and more time electronically. Is there any kind of study or an is that would help us with that.

There are a lot of studies of that sort, and indeed there are a lot of people who are asking people just on an experimental basis to put their phones away for a week and see how they do. And another study that asks people to find their way across campus by asking people for help or use their smartphone to get directions, and the people who use other people rather than their smartphones were indeed happier at the end of that process. There is lots of that evidence the drop in young people's happiness is due not only to the devices they're overusing, but actually what they're finding on those devices. I think I think I can add one bit of optimism to that, because there's some talk about there being a downward trend, and is that a trend that's going to carry on. One of the things we looked at is benevolence, finding it up for all generations, but even most for the millennials and their successors. So despite the fact that they're not happy, they're obviously still ready to reach out and help others, just as ready as those in earlier generations. And so that's the hopefulness to harness that willingness to help and make them more willing to use those efforts and inclinations that they obviously still have.

There are a lot of studies of that sort, and indeed there are a lot of people who are asking people just on an experimental basis to put their phones away for a week and see how they do. And another study that asks people to find their way across campus by asking people for help or use their smartphone to get directions, and the people who use other people rather than their smartphones were indeed happier at the end of that process. There is lots of that evidence the drop in young people's happiness is due not only to the devices they're overusing, but actually what they're finding on those devices. I think I think I can add one bit of optimism to that, because there's some talk about there being a downward trend, and is that a trend that's going to carry on. One of the things we looked at is benevolence, finding it up for all generations, but even most for the millennials and their successors. So despite the fact that they're not happy, they're obviously still ready to reach out and help others, just as ready as those in earlier generations. And so that's the hopefulness to harness that willingness to help and make them more willing to use those efforts and inclinations that they obviously still have.

I noticed that this whole notion of some kind of support relationship is really vital to the whole measurement of your attitude. It's kind of sad, but you also report that the peak of loneliness is twenty. I mean to imagine that you feel the most isolated and the most without hope at twenty years of age, which I used to think was a time when life would be exciting and the future would be interesting. And we seem to almost switch roles.

I noticed that this whole notion of some kind of support relationship is really vital to the whole measurement of your attitude. It's kind of sad, but you also report that the peak of loneliness is twenty. I mean to imagine that you feel the most isolated and the most without hope at twenty years of age, which I used to think was a time when life would be exciting and the future would be interesting. And we seem to almost switch roles.

Well, whether we lay that on the social media or elsewhere, I don't know. But if you don't feel their people around, if you don't feel their groups round to which you belong, if you feel excluded, then you're going to start feeling lonely right, because you're rather short of people who you will feel supported by. It is striking. It's not in every country, by the way, that that is happening.

Well, whether we lay that on the social media or elsewhere, I don't know. But if you don't feel their people around, if you don't feel their groups round to which you belong, if you feel excluded, then you're going to start feeling lonely right, because you're rather short of people who you will feel supported by. It is striking. It's not in every country, by the way, that that is happening.

Nonetheless, the loneliness levels in.

Nonetheless, the loneliness levels in.

The United States for the young are not all that much higher than in other countries, indeed lower than most At average loneliness levels in the United States, and that group of countries are almost at the world's lowest levels. So you wouldn't want to say the United States as a whole is in the loneliness crunch.

The United States for the young are not all that much higher than in other countries, indeed lower than most At average loneliness levels in the United States, and that group of countries are almost at the world's lowest levels. So you wouldn't want to say the United States as a whole is in the loneliness crunch.

That ain't the case looking at those numbers.

That ain't the case looking at those numbers.

There's one other area here where this whole approach to well being, which is something Jim Clifton and I have talked about for over twenty years. But apparently there's a real correlation between well being and dementia in a way that's actually very encouraging and very positive. Can you talk a little bit about how well being affects the risk of developing dementia?

There's one other area here where this whole approach to well being, which is something Jim Clifton and I have talked about for over twenty years. But apparently there's a real correlation between well being and dementia in a way that's actually very encouraging and very positive. Can you talk a little bit about how well being affects the risk of developing dementia?

Sure, we have a special chapter on that in this year's report, So it's the right time to address this topic.

Sure, we have a special chapter on that in this year's report, So it's the right time to address this topic.

It isn't just.

It isn't just.

Dementia, by the way. We used to looking for risk factors for disease. They're now looking for positive risks II. Things that are done right, you'll have less disease well. Having a high life evaluation after standardizing for all the other risk characteristics, then is a future predictor of mortality and morbidity for many sources, among which dementia is one. Dementia, of course can kill because it kills the sense of life aslong with other things. But you could imagine that there's kind of a positive circle that goes on between happiness and activities.

Dementia, by the way. We used to looking for risk factors for disease. They're now looking for positive risks II. Things that are done right, you'll have less disease well. Having a high life evaluation after standardizing for all the other risk characteristics, then is a future predictor of mortality and morbidity for many sources, among which dementia is one. Dementia, of course can kill because it kills the sense of life aslong with other things. But you could imagine that there's kind of a positive circle that goes on between happiness and activities.

Right, we know other evidence that people had that. In order to.

Right, we know other evidence that people had that. In order to.

Keep your mind alive and well, it needs exercise and benefits from physical exercise as well as mental exercise, and increasingly, of course we're learning in this report and elsewhere social exercise. So you really want to exercise all your human capacities, and if you do, they last longer and they remain healthier, and so that the actual onset of dementia is less likely and the severity of it is less likely. And what's more, of course, by inducing positive states of living, this is not sitting someone in front of a television set learning reasons to die. It's connecting them with other people in a lively way giving them reasons to live, and that not only makes them live longer even if they are in some state of mental decline, but happier all along the way. And surely that should be the objective.

Keep your mind alive and well, it needs exercise and benefits from physical exercise as well as mental exercise, and increasingly, of course we're learning in this report and elsewhere social exercise. So you really want to exercise all your human capacities, and if you do, they last longer and they remain healthier, and so that the actual onset of dementia is less likely and the severity of it is less likely. And what's more, of course, by inducing positive states of living, this is not sitting someone in front of a television set learning reasons to die. It's connecting them with other people in a lively way giving them reasons to live, and that not only makes them live longer even if they are in some state of mental decline, but happier all along the way. And surely that should be the objective.

That's wonderful. Now I'm curious. I noticed that you've given a lot of talks about subjective well being to guide public policy. If you were talking to the Congress or talking to the president of the Sectory of Health and Human Services, what do you think of the key things we should be thinking about in public policy to maximize both his whole sense of happiness but also the sense of wellness and well being well.

That's wonderful. Now I'm curious. I noticed that you've given a lot of talks about subjective well being to guide public policy. If you were talking to the Congress or talking to the president of the Sectory of Health and Human Services, what do you think of the key things we should be thinking about in public policy to maximize both his whole sense of happiness but also the sense of wellness and well being well.

I think the first thing, and I think when David Cameron, the British Prime Minister, was the first nation beyond Bhutan to really take it seriously when he launched his program in twenty ten, I think he had the three pillars right. First of all, he was making a pitch and government so ought to take this seriously. But then he sat on the platform with the head of the Statistical Agency and said, we really need to have these measures of the quality of life, not just incomes and whether you're employed or whether you're sick, but the actual quality of your life measured everywhere in all our major surveys. Secondly, the civil service needs to be trained and brought on board, because you're not going to change things on the ground unless all of participants think that's important. Of course, we know from the happiness research that's the way to get things done right. You do things collaboratively, not by orders from the top. You do them, and with little luck, most of these actual changes will be coming from the bottom up, in which case it's for the legislatures to get out of the way and open the doors and make things possible. Let me give you one particular example that I use for very easy public policy change that would dramatically improve lives. We've been studying a program called Iyegen in Saskatoon that takes a grade six class and puts it in an eldercare facility for a whole year. It changes the lives of those students forever, It changes the lives of the elders in that and doesn't cost anything because it's just a classroom one building versus another, and the teacher just goes to a different place for work. But they end up spending a lot of their time with people they otherwise never would have met, never would have understood. They are of a broader life, They care for each other. It's life changing for the people who work there, because we've been studying it right through COVID and before, and yet nobody doesn't. Why don't they do it? It's because the general public policy set up now for the last twenty years, there's been an increasing risk aversion. Cover your rear, make sure nothing goes wrong on your watch. So what happens. You lock the schools, keep everybody out, You lock the elder care facilities, keeping everybody in. And while you could dramatically by opening doors rather than closing doors, you will actually end up giving people safer, longer and happier lives. It's easy to do, but it does need governments at higher levels to say, we encourage you to take whatever risks are required, to bend your rules to open doors for people, to create the social relations that are going to keep them alive, keep them healthy. And that's kind of trivial, but it isn't trivial. It's absolutely fundamental, and yet we don't see it happening. And so you have to tell some stories like that to people who make policies, say well, if you believe me that this is as wonderful as our evidence says it is, why aren't you encouraging school boards and elder care facilities to get together? Why aren't you joining these silos of public policy so they're not getting narrower and narrower and more and more protected by their own rules and regulations and who's allowed in the facility and who isn't allowed in the facility. We have to link with each other and help each other, and to do that across silos is got to be the cheapest way of creating a happier society.

I think the first thing, and I think when David Cameron, the British Prime Minister, was the first nation beyond Bhutan to really take it seriously when he launched his program in twenty ten, I think he had the three pillars right. First of all, he was making a pitch and government so ought to take this seriously. But then he sat on the platform with the head of the Statistical Agency and said, we really need to have these measures of the quality of life, not just incomes and whether you're employed or whether you're sick, but the actual quality of your life measured everywhere in all our major surveys. Secondly, the civil service needs to be trained and brought on board, because you're not going to change things on the ground unless all of participants think that's important. Of course, we know from the happiness research that's the way to get things done right. You do things collaboratively, not by orders from the top. You do them, and with little luck, most of these actual changes will be coming from the bottom up, in which case it's for the legislatures to get out of the way and open the doors and make things possible. Let me give you one particular example that I use for very easy public policy change that would dramatically improve lives. We've been studying a program called Iyegen in Saskatoon that takes a grade six class and puts it in an eldercare facility for a whole year. It changes the lives of those students forever, It changes the lives of the elders in that and doesn't cost anything because it's just a classroom one building versus another, and the teacher just goes to a different place for work. But they end up spending a lot of their time with people they otherwise never would have met, never would have understood. They are of a broader life, They care for each other. It's life changing for the people who work there, because we've been studying it right through COVID and before, and yet nobody doesn't. Why don't they do it? It's because the general public policy set up now for the last twenty years, there's been an increasing risk aversion. Cover your rear, make sure nothing goes wrong on your watch. So what happens. You lock the schools, keep everybody out, You lock the elder care facilities, keeping everybody in. And while you could dramatically by opening doors rather than closing doors, you will actually end up giving people safer, longer and happier lives. It's easy to do, but it does need governments at higher levels to say, we encourage you to take whatever risks are required, to bend your rules to open doors for people, to create the social relations that are going to keep them alive, keep them healthy. And that's kind of trivial, but it isn't trivial. It's absolutely fundamental, and yet we don't see it happening. And so you have to tell some stories like that to people who make policies, say well, if you believe me that this is as wonderful as our evidence says it is, why aren't you encouraging school boards and elder care facilities to get together? Why aren't you joining these silos of public policy so they're not getting narrower and narrower and more and more protected by their own rules and regulations and who's allowed in the facility and who isn't allowed in the facility. We have to link with each other and help each other, and to do that across silos is got to be the cheapest way of creating a happier society.

I think that's very encouraging, you know, John, want to thank you for joining me. I've always admired Gallop. They do a remarkable job. I want to encourage our listeners to read the World Happiness Support twenty twenty four, which can be found by going to Worldhappiness Dot Report. Your work is fascinating and groundbreaking, and I think we'd be better off if our leaders understood that pursuing methodical efforts at maximizing happiness in a very practical way might in fact be the most effective health policy we could have. And what you're doing is pioneering work, and I'm very grateful that you would spend time with us talking about it.

I think that's very encouraging, you know, John, want to thank you for joining me. I've always admired Gallop. They do a remarkable job. I want to encourage our listeners to read the World Happiness Support twenty twenty four, which can be found by going to Worldhappiness Dot Report. Your work is fascinating and groundbreaking, and I think we'd be better off if our leaders understood that pursuing methodical efforts at maximizing happiness in a very practical way might in fact be the most effective health policy we could have. And what you're doing is pioneering work, and I'm very grateful that you would spend time with us talking about it.

It's a great pleasure and it's the sort of thing I love talking about, and only by talking about it can we spread it.

It's a great pleasure and it's the sort of thing I love talking about, and only by talking about it can we spread it.

Thank you to my guest John Helliwell. You can get a link to read the World Happiness Report twenty twenty four on our show page at newtsworld dot com. News World is produced by Gangrish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at Gingrids three sixty. If you've been enjoying Nutsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcasts and both rate us with five stars and give us a review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of newts World can sign up for my three free weekly columns at gingrichscree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.

Thank you to my guest John Helliwell. You can get a link to read the World Happiness Report twenty twenty four on our show page at newtsworld dot com. News World is produced by Gangrish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at Gingrids three sixty. If you've been enjoying Nutsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcasts and both rate us with five stars and give us a review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of newts World can sign up for my three free weekly columns at gingrichscree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.